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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 2000

Vol. 163 No. 2

Privatisation of Driving Tests: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann, mindful of the continuing failure to cope with the backlog of driving tests, calls on the Government to privatise this function before 1 October 2000, and to impose on the agency, so created, a series of strict performance measures.

I express to the House my deep appreciation that the House delayed this motion for me to reach here on time. I ran into very serious traffic jams for which I cannot blame provisional drivers, much as I would like to. It would have strengthened my case. I welcome the Minister of State and the opportunity to debate this matter.

It is one of the ironies of politics that the nastiest jobs go to the nicest people. One of the people in this Government for whom I feel sorry is the Minister with responsibility for the issue of Sellafield who must go through the motions of playing to the gallery without doing it so loudly that the people in London might notice. Similarly, I have immense sympathy for the Minister responsible for driving tests on whom the task has been foisted, as he knows all too well, of defending the indefensible. The Minister is not only one of the nicest people in Irish politics, he is also a person of immense political and ministerial experience and is well able to carry out such chores as this with magisterial indifference. He is a past master in sticking to his brief while at the same time leaving no one in any doubt of his disdain for it. This evening I invite him to live a little more dangerously and to move into what I would call uncharted territory. This is a territory into which few in political life dare to venture. It is a place where someone admits that they got it wrong and must do it differently.

We are here to discuss the scandal of driving tests. Compared to some of the other matters going on around us as lately as this evening, it is perhaps only a mini-scandal but a scandal nonetheless because motor cars are dangerous objects. In this country alone, they kill close on 500 people every year, far more than were ever killed in Northern Ireland, even at the height of the troubles. It is recognised worldwide that the responsibility of driving a car is not to be taken lightly. That is why we have licensing regimes. We do not tell people, willy-nilly, that they can buy a car, go ahead and drive it. Rightly, we tell them they can have a car but that they must prove they can drive it safely and then they will be let loose on our roads. That in a nutshell is the theory of licensing to which we all subscribe – the right to drive a car depends on being able to prove that one is able to do so.

So much for the theory – what about the practice? Thanks to the failure of the system under the Minister's control, nearly 400,000 people driving cars have either not taken the driving test or have taken the test and failed it. A total of 400,000 people is not a trivial number. As a proportion of the total driving population, it is highly significant. It means that as you drive along, two out of every ten drivers you meet have never passed the test.

One of the red herrings waved at us later will be that there is no evidence that these 400,000 are a safety hazard on the roads. That is like saying there is no evidence that smoking is bad for you. If we really believed that 400,000 unqualified drivers were no danger, we would save a lot of trouble and money by abolishing driving licences altogether. That is the logical conclusion of arguing that those unqualified drivers do not matter. No one, having thought about it, would be very happy taking that route. Currently, there are over 90,000 people waiting for a driving test. The Minister of State will give us the exact figure down to the last decimal point. The average waiting time for these people is eight months. You can get a hip replacement quicker than a driving test but at least once you receive a new hip, you have it, but if you take a driving test, you may come out of it unqualified.

Roughly half of the people who sit driving tests fail them. This means they have to go through the process again. That is not the Minister's fault but it throws the total failure of the system into greater relief, because the people who fail the test and start the process have to go to the end of the queue and start the process over again. It is crazy that one can drive on a provisional licence for up to five years. The fact that one can no longer do it for the rest of one's life has been presented as progress, a step in the right direction, but I prefer to see it as a confession of failure. There is a ritual associated with this problem, part of which, no doubt, will be enacted again here. In both Houses of the Oireachtas, debates on this subject are quite common but part of the ritual is that the Minister presents a whole clatter of statistics aimed at defending the indefensible. Part of this sob story is to show how the demand for driving tests has increased during the 1990s, which is clearly a fact, and I am sure we will hear about it. It is also a fact that the driving licence system failed to respond adequately to that change.

The next part is how an adequate response to the problem was thwarted by the big, bad trade unions who held the Department up to ransom for years when it wanted to expand the service. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that encounter, there was a serious industrial relations problem and failure in the driving test system. All that is now in the past and now we emerge into the sunny uplands. The number of testers has been increased by over 50% and wonderful productivity agreements have been entered into. The upshot now is that there are 101 driving testers whom the Minister will have us believe are capable of doing 200,000 tests a year. Let us leave aside the fact that in the United Kingdom, where they are no slouches on the issue of road safety, they would expect only about half that number of tests from 100 testers.

Let us give the Minister's system the benefit of the doubt and say perhaps it is possible. What is the light at the end of the tunnel that the Minister is promising? By the end of the year the average wait will be down to ten weeks. The Minister, as part of this hallowed ritual through which we are going this evening, will attempt to suggest, with a straight face, that a ten week delay is perfection. Compared to eight months it is a huge improvement but is it the height of our ambitions? Such a standard of service is quite ridiculous. Let us cut to the chase. When we sweep away all the excuses, all the waves of statistics, the fact remains that the present system has utterly failed.

That is why I am saying that we should consider privatising it. We have already privatised the national car test so there can be no ideological objection to it. I have no ideological view on this. Let us see if it works and go with it. If something does not work, let us try something else. No one could argue that the present driving test system works. It has failed the nation utterly and instead of listening to a further litany of excuses and giving the Minister yet another ration of time to purge his contempt, we should say instead that enough is enough. The time has come to try something else. Let us see if there is another way. We should either privatise the system completely, like the car testing system, or we should set up a State agency like the Driving Standards Agency in Britain, which is under the State umbrella but which must also adhere to the most stringent performance criteria and guarantees.

The time has come for action rather than more talk and I suggest this evening should be the start of doing something differently. It is our opportunity to do so. The present system has worked, but let us see if there is a better system. I commend the motion to the House.

I second the motion. I am doing so because some of the motion's supporters are excluded from the House because of principles they adhere to.

I am delighted to second the motion and to re-enter this debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, who was here for the last debate on this matter, less than 12 months ago. Senator Quinn was very complimentary to him and I would be the same, but the Minister of State has failed dismally in this matter. Though he may find excuses, I can point to at least one fact. On 12 August 1998 a national newspaper carried the headline: "Waiting times for tests to be cut to ten weeks." However, two years later, on 19 April 2000, the same newspaper carried the headline: "Waiting list for driving test up to 50 weeks." That is the same newspaper, but those are two different facts. We were supposed to have a ten week period at the end of last year, but now some areas have waiting periods of 50 weeks. This is failure and nothing else.

The Minister of State can point to the increased number of cars on the road in recent years, but he should have taken that into account when making a commitment to reduce the waiting time to ten weeks; it was going to happen anyhow. In 1996 64,000 cars were sold, while 86,000 were sold in 1998. In the first quarter of this year alone approximately 120,000 have been sold. These figures were always going to increase.

A public-private partnership in this area has been suggested and that is how I see this issue. The Minister of State said in the Dáil that he could see the theory aspect of this issue being hived off to a public-private partnership. I know there is a move in that direction regarding the NRA and toll roads, so why not in this area also? I see no reason it cannot be done. There is no doubt that the pressure for driving tests will continue into the future. The economy is supposed to grow for the next ten years and we will have to find a resolution to this. If one cannot be found within the resources we are using at present, then it will have to be found some other way.

I have raised in the past the issue of doing the test through virtual reality computerisation and the Department of the Environment and Local Government has investigated this method's possibilities, though no report ever came out as a result. This would be initially expensive but would be possible with a public-private partnership. The technology is available to do so and those taking such a test would be better qualified as drivers than those taking the test on the road. An individual taking the road test gets into his or her car on a sunny day with light traffic and the test is easy. It might be hard now to find somewhere with light traffic, so the person would be driving very slowly, making it impossible to tell if he or she is a good or bad driver. However, their driving might be adequate to pass the test. That is a test for a short time under certain limited conditions.

A test involving virtual reality would entail the individual sitting into a machine such as those used to train airline pilots. The machine can present varying circumstances and situations, such as oil or wetness or other hazardous road conditions. One would be guaranteed that an individual would have a much better test than those carried out on the road. Learner drivers often do not know the width of their car and often learn the width by hitting the car off something. This has been proven scientifically. Using the virtual reality method, it would be possible for them to learn the width of the car without endangering themselves or anyone else.

Senator Quinn is right in saying we have failed miserably to meet the demand for driving tests. I have a daughter who is waiting for a test and I know of a young man who is waiting for a test to get full-time employment. Taken together with insurance and vehicle purchase costs, this is putting pressure on young people at the wrong time; they are under sufficient pressure already.

The Minister of State must now use imagination and take a leap of faith to implement the motion's proposals. I compliment Senator Quinn on his motion and commend it to the House.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"endorses the measures taken by the Government to improve the delivery of the driving test service in the context of unprecedented demand for driving tests and notes the Government's intention to intensify actions to make the service more responsive to customer needs."

I second the amendment.

Tá áthas orm bheith anseo arís ar an ócáid seo chun labhairt faoi na deacrachtaí atá againn ó thaobh an teastas tiománaíocht agus táim buíoch do na Seanadóirí as ucht an seans a thugann san dom chuid den scéal a mhíniú. Nílim fhéin sásta, seachas éinne eile, go mion go bhfuil daoine ag fanacht chomh fada san chun an scrúdú san a dhéanamh. Tá sé ar intinn agam gan a chur suas leis seo mórán achair eile mar tá sé ag cur isteach go mór ar chúrsaí pearsanta – tá daoine ag fanacht – agus tá sé ag cur isteach ar chúrsaí eacnamaíochta chomh maith. Is an-drochchuí ina bhfuil an scéal seo, go bhfuil liosta chomh fada sin agus go mbíonn ar daoine fanacht ró-fhada chun dul faoin scrúdú.

I am grateful to Senators for raising this issue and for giving me an opportunity to explain the progress that has been made in improving the delivery of a driving test service in the face of a continuing and unprecedented high level of demand for the service. No matter how one criticises this unsatisfactory situation, we must recognise we are living in extraordinary times. There is huge growth in demand for certain services – housing is one and driving tests are another. This is a reflection of the growth of the economy and these are problems that, in a way, we should be glad to confront. In other times we had problems arising from lack of employment and emigration and our economy suffered as a result. Demand is one of the major factors involved in the unsatisfactory situation regarding driving tests. I will refer to the other factors before I conclude.

Over the years, the number of applications for driving tests has seen considerable fluctuations. Applications on hand had risen to some 67,000 by 1990, and waiting periods were comparable to those reached in 1998. During 1992, waiting periods were reduced to the order of ten to 12 weeks, with a backlog of under 30,000 applications. This is the customer quality standard which my Department has now set itself and to which we are determined to return as quickly as possible. Senator Quinn seemed to ridicule this, but in the present circumstances to reduce the waiting per iod to ten or 12 weeks would be a major achievement. I am not saying I am happy with this because I would like to see it reduced a great deal more. I would prefer someone being able to get a test within four weeks. However, I am a realist and I recognise that in the present circumstances to achieve a waiting period of ten to 12 weeks would be a major improvement.

The current waiting time problem started in 1996 when greatly increased numbers of driving test applications were made to the Department of the Environment and Local Government, partly, at least, in response to tighter regulations about the renewal of provisional driving licences. In 1996, applications rose 20% over 1995. However, in 1997, the rate of increase in test applications abated considerably. It was not until 1998 that the trend towards greatly increased driver test demand became fully established and the link between this demand and the buoyant Irish economy asserted itself inescapably. In 1998, there was an increase of 23% over 1997, resulting in an all time record of 146,506 test applications. This trend continued in 1999, which saw the previous record being broken, when a total of 153,389 applications were received. This is an increase of 5% on 1998 and 45% on 1995. Indications so far this year are that we are likely to reach about 170,000 applications this year. If this projection proves accurate, it represents an 11% increase on the record intake in 1999.

Despite this unprecedented rise in demand, the waiting times for driving tests have improved considerably, with the average waiting time falling from 33 to 26 weeks, while the longest anyone has to wait for a test has fallen from an average of 41 weeks to 29 weeks. The present backlog of driving test applications is some 91,000, down from the high of 102,000 in 1999, but slightly up on the starting figures for 2000.

Improvements to the service in 1999 were achieved by increasing the numbers and productivity of the driver testers. Very significant additional resources have been allocated to the driver testing service, which now numbers 100 testers, compared to 66 in 1998. The recruitment of additional testers, both permanent and contract, followed the holding of a competition by the Civil Service Commission and lengthy negotiations with the driver testers' union, to agree greater productivity and the recruitment of contract testers. Additional staff and productivity, together with Saturday working, has increased the testing capacity of the service by over 90,000 tests annually.

Access to the service has also been improved through the provision of two new test centres in Tallaght and Raheny. In response to the upsurge in demand in the current year, the Department is taking steps for the immediate employment of retired testers and the recruitment of further testers from the Civil Service Commission panel. We are also seeking to negotiate a bonus scheme with existing testers with a view to maximising their productivity. These measures should bring us close to meeting our target of ten weeks maximum waiting time for an appointment by the end of this year, despite the strongly rising demand.

I must emphasise that where an individual requires a test for urgent reasons, they will be facilitated as far as possible. During the most recent period for which figures are available, 38% of applicants were tested within 15 weeks. If Senator Coogan knows of someone whose employment prospects are affected because they have to wait for a driving test, that person should make that known to the Department. As I have said on numerous occasions and as most Members of the Oireachtas are aware, we will always seek to accommodate such a person where they can genuinely show employment is being denied to them if they do not have their driving test. We have honoured this commitment, as can be seen by the figure of 38% of applicants being tested within 15 weeks.

I am very conscious of the need to provide a testing service which can offer tests within a reasonable period of time and I assure the Seanad that both I and my Department will take the measures necessary to ensure that a quality service is provided. I am determined to bring progressive and substantial improvement to the quality of the driving test service provided to the public and in particular to end present excessive and unacceptable waiting times.

The driver testing service has been examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, who has prepared a value for money report on the service which has been submitted to the Department and will shortly be presented to the Oireachtas. The report makes some useful recommendations that are capable of being addressed within the existing organisational structure of the service. It identifies three main areas where change is needed in order to improve the service. These relate to uniformity in the standard of the driving test, waiting times and the supply of driving tests, and the cost of providing the service. The report also identifies the broader issue of the lack of responsiveness of the service in the face of rapidly rising demand.

I intend that this report will shortly be presented to the Oireachtas, together with a considered response on my part. I assure Senators that this response will take account of the need to make the service more responsive to customers' needs and will address the need to ensure that the testing service will, in the future, be able to respond to fluctuations in demand and deliver a quality service to the public. Improving the responsiveness of the service will include the need to consider how to improve the delivery of the service and in this context alternative methods of delivery would have to be considered. Such methods could include a restructuring of the existing service, the establishment of an independent agency or even the outsourcing of the service to the private sector. I have an open mind on these issues which will require careful consideration. As Senator Coogan mentioned, my preference and that of my party is that this service be privatised.

The parameters for the driving test now reflect the high standards laid down in EU directives which facilitates the recognition of Irish driving licences in the EU and internationally. The driving test must determine whether an applicant is competent to drive a vehicle safely and with due regard for the safety and convenience of other persons. The role of driver testing in ensuring that drivers reach an acceptable level of competence is important in the context of road safety. The issue of driver competence is emphasised in the Government's road safety strategy, a subject to which I will return later.

A related issue that is often raised in the context of road safety and the waiting period for driving tests is the number of provisional licence holders on the roads, which was mentioned by the proposer of this motion. Some misconceptions exist in relation to the number of persons driving on provisional driving licences and also in relation to the arrangement governing the number of provisional licences which a person may obtain. I take this opportunity to set the record straight.

In relation to the number of provisional licences a person may obtain for any particular category of vehicle, there is no limit. The first two licences are each valid for a period of two years. However, in order to be entitled to a third or subsequent provisional licence for any particular category of vehicle, a person must have undergone a driving test for that category within the preceding two years or, failing that, have a driving test appointment arranged, in which case the provisional licence is granted for one year only.

Another misconception is that the estimated 380,000 provisional licence holders are driving around without having ever undergone the driving test. This is not the case. In 1999, approximately 37% of applicants were undergoing the test for at least the second time. The overall pass rate for driving tests in 1999 was 59%, nearly 60%, and the pass rates for first time and non-first time applicants were of a similar order. The figure in the UK is 46%.

A related concern is the accompaniment of learner drivers by qualified drivers. Provisional licence holders are required by law to be accompanied by a driver qualified to drive the vehicle being driven, except where the driver holds a second provisional driving licence to drive cars, or is the holder of a provisional licence to drive motorcycles or tractors or work vehicles. A car learner driver is only exempt from being accompanied during the currency of a second provisional licence, which is valid for two years.

The intention behind the exemption provision on being accompanied is that learner drivers are required to have at least two years' driving experience accompanied by qualified drivers before being permitted to drive unaccompanied. They are deemed to have sufficient previous experience accompanied by qualified drivers to be allowed drive unaccompanied during the validity of the second provisional licence. The fact that they are required to be accompanied on a third or subsequent provisional licence is an incentive to pass the driving test during the currency of the second provisional licence if they wish to remain driving unaccompanied. Notwithstanding the fact that many provisional licence holders will have undergone the test, we recognise that the number of Irish drivers relying on provisional licences is too high. We are determined to reduce this proportion significantly.

The Government is in the process of introducing a theoretical test of knowledge in addition to the practical driving test. The test will cover the rules of the road, risk perception, hazard awareness and good driving behaviour. The operation of the theory test will be contracted out to a private company as a private public partnership project. Success at the theory test will be a prerequisite for obtaining a first provisional driving licence and will ensure that provisional licence holders have an adequate knowledge of the rules of the road before being allowed to drive on the road. It is envisaged that the test will be an information technology based system, that is, carried out through a computer based medium with multiple choice questions on a computer screen. Tenders have recently been invited and it is expected that the contract for the operation of the test will be awarded in the autumn.

The Government's road safety strategy sets out to make a measurable impact on road deaths and injuries in Ireland over its five year term. The strategy's primary target is to achieve at least a 20% reduction in deaths and serious injuries by 2002 relative to 1997. This target will be achieved through a concerted effort in the three key areas of speeding, alcohol use and seat belt wearing and the implementation of a range of measures designed to improve human behaviour and to make our vehicles and roads safer. We are about to commence the use of fixed cameras on some of our major motorways. Therefore, drivers had better be careful.

Since the introduction of the Government road safety strategy there have been substantial improvements in terms of accident reduction; 3% fewer people died on the roads in 1998 than in 1997, 12% fewer people were seriously injured in 1998 than in 1997. This represents the lowest number of serious injuries for the last decade and constitutes significant progress towards the five year target in the Government's strategy.

More recent data from the Garda Síochána indicate that there were 413 road deaths in 1999 compared with 458 in 1998. This would represent a reduction of some 13% in road deaths relative to 1997 in the second full year of operation of the Government's road safety strategy.

There has also been substantial progress in the implementation of the measures set out in the strategy designed to help achieve the main targets of reducing road deaths and serious injuries. That is evidenced by the number of fines issued for drink driving, for driving without wearing a seat belt and for speeding. There has been an enormous increase in the detection rate and the enforcement levels by the Garda. I thank them for their extremely good co-operation and police work in this area.

International research establishes that human action is a contributory factor in more than 90% of road accidents. The road safety strategy accordingly emphasises policies and measures aimed at improving road user behaviour and establishing a culture of road use that is both precautionary and pro-active in relation to road safety. The strategy also aligns itself with road safety plans from other countries in recognising that the modification of human behaviour in the areas of speed, alcohol use and seat belt wearing holds the greatest and most immediate potential for realising road safety gains.

The road safety strategy proposes improvements in driver training and testing as well as in educational programmes as complements to its primary counter-measures in relation to speeding, alcohol use and seat belt wearing. I recently announced proposals for improving the quality control and regulation of driving instruction. These include the recognition of certain private approved bodies, which would operate to quality standards and train or assess and register driving instructors. Registration with such approved bodies would exempt an individual driving instructor from the otherwise general obligation to undergo, from 1 January 2000 – I think that should be from 1 January 2002 – a competency test of their ability to instruct.

I recently announced an initiative by the Irish Motorcycle Action Group, MAG, to establish a network of motorcycle instructors. Funding will be advanced to the Irish Rider Training Association, which has been established under the auspices of MAG, to enable it to carry out this task. There is a commitment in the road safety strategy to address the issue of initial practical training for motorcyclists before they go on the public road. The establishment of the Irish Rider Training Association responds to this concern. It is envisaged that the IRTA will assess and train potential instructors who will then be available to deliver instruction in their local areas. I look forward to a reduction in motorcycle fatalities as a result of the greater availability of trained motorcycle instructors and urge all motorcyclists, particularly novice riders, to avail of the training service that will be available from the IRTA in the coming year.

I am acutely aware of the widespread concern about long waiting periods for driving tests. While we still manage to provide reasonably timely tests for urgent cases, my Department recognises that a much better service is required for our customers as a matter of course. We have already committed extensive additional resources to the driver testing service and we will work to restore it to a high and guaranteed quality standard as quickly as possible and make the service more responsive to customer needs.

I mentioned in the other House the industrial relations problems – this was reflected in some of Senator Quinn's comments – that have bedevilled this area of employment in the public sector, the employment of driver testers and the extraordinary lines of demarcation of work practices that have come into use. The length of time it took my officials to negotiate with the union representing the driver testers was extraordinary. In mentioning this I am open to the accusation that I am pointing the finger or laying the blame somewhere else.

It is important that Senators should be aware of this situation. It is also important that driver testers should be aware that on a number of occasions I have been taken to task by my colleagues in the Dáil and in the Seanad about the unsatisfactory position regarding driver testers and the length of time people have to wait to take their driving test. I am aware of the problems in this area. I cannot simply employ the number of additional testers I require, with the approval of the Minister for Finance which I would have, and deploy them in the appropriate centres to ensure that we can give the public the service they deserve and Members of this House are rightly seeking.

I have indicated that the kind of review I am considering will include serious consideration of the other alternatives I mentioned. It is not a pleasant task to make forecasts as to the reduction that can be achieved in a year and discover at the end of the year that we did not achieve that level of reduction. That is partly due to the extraordinary increase in demand, but that is not the sole reason we are not able to get on top of this issue. There are other factors in the industrial relations area that up to now have been a serious issue. I have been tolerant and patient in dealing with this issue, as have my officials who have been operating on behalf of the Government in these negotiations. I accept that this House and the other House are looking for another way to solve this problem, and I will give that serious consideration.

Mr. Ryan

I wish the Minister of State had been more precise about the demarcations, etc. The truth is that each tester in his Department, and they are largely established civil servants, is cur rently doing nine tests per day, which is above the European norm. Whatever the cause of the Minister's problems, it is not because the people will not do the job. It is a cheap shot to imply at the end of a long speech that the workforce is the cause of the problem. It is an even cheaper shot, and intellectually indefensible, to believe that to convert it into some sort of quasi-private single agency would transform all these problems. That would leave the Minister with over 100 established civil servants with nothing to do, whom he cannot and will not sack, and the agency will have to recruit more people.

The current salary of a driver tester is somewhere between £15,500 and £21,500 per year. I do not know what the overheads of the Minister's Department are in this regard but I do know that there is only one chief instructor and there are only six supervisors, so the overheads are outside that. I know the accommodation most of them use is hopelessly inadequate and that training is virtually non-existent once they are on the job. None of us is perfect but the reason Ministers get paid four times as much as driving instructors is because they are responsible for their areas, and it is always the first bolt of inadequate managers to blame their workforce.

The fundamental problem is that somewhere in this country there is a body of opinion which still has difficulty getting used to the fact that we are not the country we were ten years ago. It was inevitable that if we had a 60% growth in the number of people at work, there would be a spectacular growth in the number of cars, but it took us until the year 2000 to figure out that that meant we needed better roads and public transport. It is taking us the same length of time to figure out that we have a problem, which needs to be addressed, with the way we train and test our drivers and improve road safety.

The best piece of news in the Minister's contribution is the 19% drop in road fatalities between 1998 and 1999. That is a considerable achievement, given the increased number of cars on the roads, and is an indication of what can be done when resources are allocated to a particular area. When the Garda authorities were allocated resources to enforce drink driving, seat belt and speeding laws, the consequences were clear. Even with the extraordinary number of young drivers, which is a fact of life because of the growth in the workforce, the number of road fatalities has stabilised and indeed reduced. We should all be delighted with that achievement because we have spent too many days in this House talking about a catalogue of horrors.

It is no excuse to turn on the testers. We need to expand their numbers, but it should not be part of a driver tester's job to work on Saturdays. It is a peculiar definition of work practice or restrictive practices to tell people that the job has changed, and therefore they must work on Satur days. That is not fair, regardless of whether it is in the supermarket business or in the public service. There is a civilised world all around us – according to the competitiveness league referred to in an article in today's Irish Independent, they are countries such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands which believe that people are entitled to shorter working hours and longer holidays. That is what they call the civilised side of affluence. Our view of affluence is that it means we give people more money but we take away from them the sort of security and time in which to enjoy the increased affluence. Let us not turn on people who resist requests to scuttle the lifestyle they have enjoyed in the interests of some peculiar concept of efficiency. Let us deal with the fundamental problem, which is that those who were given the job of planning, managing and organising this area failed to do so.

The Minister stated that provisional licence holders are required by law to be accompanied by a driver qualified to drive the vehicle being driven, except where the driver holds a second provisional driving licence. He said that was to ensure that the provisional driver would be accompanied for at least two years, but there is no reason for them even to get into a car in the first two years. The reason for that is to reduce the demand for tests. If people had to do a driving test before they got the second provisional licence, the demand would have increased. It is disingenuous to include some sort of road safety motive into what was an administrative convenience. The thought was that they could probably deal with the numbers if they let them slip until the third provisional licence. The idea was that for the first application, the rules would remain as they are, they would be changed for the second and for the third, they would put pressure on people to apply to do a test. It was wrong to pretend that was motivated by some idea of skill and training when there is no reason for anybody to even step inside a car.

Similarly, the requirement that people must apply for a driving test before they can get a third licence is no guarantee that in the previous four years those people even stepped inside a car because there is no regulation on driving instruction, which is privatised and competitive, and I gather from the Minister that will not be introduced for another few years. There is a well documented case of an individual who was sending people in to do tests for public service vehicles and the individual who was training them subsequently appeared at a driving test centre to get his own full licence, having been masquerading as an instructor for some time before that.

The real problem is that nobody wanted to deal with this issue properly and in an organised fashion. Much of what we are doing now is being done because the European Union told us that if we do not tighten up this area and operate it properly, Irish driving licences will not be recog nised as valid in the rest of the EU because we will be so far out of step with it. There are civilised countries throughout Europe which have recognised that people have to be taught to drive properly and it cannot be hit and miss. That means that driving schools have to be properly regulated and run only by people who are competent and capable of doing the job properly.

I do not know what Senator Quinn wants to do with the privatised service.

Senator Ryan has half a minute remaining.

What a shame.

Mr. Ryan

Senator Quinn and I will discuss the issue again. I am far from persuaded by the arguments about the efficiencies of the private sector. Incidentally, I am a little disturbed that the Department should have access to a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General before the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is a bit peculiar because the Comptroller and Auditor General essentially reports to the Committee of Public Accounts, which then investigates his findings.

If someone can convince me, on the basis of an objective and independent evaluation, that privatisation is inherently more efficient, I will become quite keen on the idea. However, I have found no evidence to support claims in favour of privatisation and everything I have ever read about it is selective and driven by a particular agenda. A classic example of this is the report on Aer Rianta which is full of ideological assumptions.

This matter was debated on a previous occasion when the Minister of State indicated the difficulties he is encountering in trying to provide a service commensurate with the requirements of the public. Statistics illustrate the difficulty involved in providing such a service. As the Minister of State indicated, there were 67,000 applications on hand in 1990 but, due to efforts made at that time, by 1992 there were only 30,000 people on the waiting list who were only obliged to wait ten to 12 weeks before being tested. This shows that progress can be made in this area.

Ireland's population has grown considerably in the past ten years and the number of cars on our roads has also increased. Young people are becoming more and more part of the consumer society and one of the first indications that they are maturing is their desire to drive and own their own cars.

The Minister of State indicated that there were 146,000 test applications in 1998 and 153,000 in 1999 and he estimated that there will be 170,000 this year. A commitment must be made to provide tests for the people who made these applications and the Minister of State said that efforts have been made in that regard. On the last occasion we debated this issue he indicated that the number of driving instructors was to be increased by 16 but, subsequently, it rose by 35 which means that there has been a 50% increase in the number of driving instructors. The Minister of State also stated on that occasion that he had encountered difficulties in negotiations with the relevant union to bring about this increase.

I agree with Senator Quinn that any public service provided by the State should be of a satisfactory quality. If it is not and if a private company could provide a better service we should investigate the possibility of privatisation. Unlike Senator Ryan, I do not see this as an ideological argument. It is a matter of pragmatism which revolves around how to deliver the best service at the best price. That is the way business operates and the Government should employ the same methods.

Senator Quinn's contribution appeared to contain a subliminal message that delays in granting driving tests to the large number of people awaiting them was, in some way, a huge contributory factor to road accidents. I do not know if that is the case. However, on the previous occasion we debated this matter the Minister of State indicated that the Garda had stated that while those under 25 years of age were involved in 36% of accidents, there was no evidence to suggest that provisional licence holders were more responsible for causing accidents than any other group of motorists.

It is difficult to reconcile those figures because one would assume that most provisional licence holders are in the lower age bracket. Therefore, one would need to have access to the full statistics. It is peculiar that we do not have precise statistics. Someone should compile statistics in relation to provisional licence holders and the number of accidents in which they are involved. We should not try to extrapolate from the figures in order to guess whether they are a factor. Perhaps the Minister and the Department could take this matter up with the Central Statistics Office to see if such statistics could be compiled.

Many provisional licence holders drive infrequently. Often these people seek to delay taking their test and they encounter difficulties when their second provisional licence lapses. At that stage, they do not have the necessary driving experience which would equip them to pass the test. Perhaps the Department could examine this matter. My daughter, Angela, holds a provisional licence but she drives infrequently. I can see her running into difficulties when her second licence expires because she is not equipped to drive. She will only drive occasionally when she is accompanied either by her mother or me. There are many people who fall into this category and I wonder if a distinction could be made in respect of them. These people add to the numbers on waiting lists for driving tests but their presence is not indicative of the real need.

I concur with the Minister of State's comments in response to Senator Coogan's remarks. The Department has a facility which it is very disposed to utilising to assist applicants for jobs who require full driving licences in order to obtain employment. This system works well and it is important that it is in place. It may not matter to many people who apply for driving licences whether they are tested in three or six months. However, there is a category of people to whom having a full driving licence is absolutely crucial from a career point of view.

I agree with the Minister of State that, in the absence of statistics to the contrary, a distinction must be made between safety and the backlog of driving tests. Speeding, drink driving and failure to wear seatbelts have always been flagged as the three main contributory factors in road accidents. It is a matter of improving enforcement and detection levels in respect of these factors. The introduction of television cameras and increased levels of policing on our roads by the Garda will help in this regard. The gardaí are to be complimented for their work in this area and their increased presence on our roads will, hopefully, lead to a downturn in fatalities.

I wish to respond to Senator Ryan who made a disingenuous point. In my opinion, the Minister of State clearly indicated that he was dissatisfied with the quality of the service being provided to the public at large. He stated that the increase in the number of those applying for driving tests was one factor in the delays being caused. Obviously, another factor is the difficulty in increasing the number of driving testers because of difficulties which have arisen in negotiations with the unions.

If the public service unions do not adopt a more enlightened approach to such negotiations, the number of people employed in the public service will decrease. SPCs in county council areas are one example of this. Their implementation has been delayed for 18 months as a result of union difficulties. A decision was made by the Government and endorsed by councils throughout the country but it cannot be implemented because people in senior management positions in the relevant representative body have taken issue with it.

It is imperative that we introduce a system which will allow us to deal with the increased numbers of those applying for driving tests. Demand has increased and, while the Minister has at his disposal 100,000 driving instructors throughout the country, I welcome the decision to engage retired testers to help reduce the waiting lists. I am glad an initiative has been introduced to regulate the affairs of driving instructors. The quality of driving instruction on offer determines the pass ratio which, at 59%, is too low. Driving instructors could be employed on a short-term basis as testers at times when the number of people applying for tests reaches levels which require urgent attention. I hope the initiatives to which the Minister of State referred will be pursued further.

I am delighted to participate in this debate. The motion is timely. Driving tests have become an issue in recent years, particularly in recent months.

There is great concern at the delays in providing driving tests. It is causing much hardship. Returning emigrants who have spent many years abroad, having left these shores at an early age, find they have no driving licence. They are obliged to seek a provisional licence and then apply for the driving test. The consequent delays mean that people who are offered jobs cannot take them up because they do not have a full driving licence. Constituents regularly come to politicians' clinics inquiring about cancellations. Many politicians will confirm that this happens on a weekly basis.

We are sometimes critical of the staff in Government Departments but it must be said that the staff in the driving test office are courteous and try their best to help. It was a noticeable and welcome feature when I made representations to those offices.

I often ponder the issue of training drivers and preparing them for the roads. The number of cars has increased enormously and the quality of the roads has greatly improved. As a result people are speeding far more often and the roads have become more dangerous. A great deal of expertise is now required to be a competent driver.

I often wonder why driving is not a subject in school. The best time to train young people is when they are attending school. This is something we should consider for the future. Lives are being lost on the roads every day and people tend to blame young people and their speeding. It is time to take a close look at the proper training of car drivers, particularly young drivers, and serious consideration should be given to including it in the school curriculum. Driving a vehicle, whether it is a truck, car or tractor, is part of everybody's life. There are many lives at risk but the difference between a good, mediocre and bad driver can be vast.

Senator Coogan spoke in favour of a public private partnership arrangement rather than the complete privatisation suggested by Senator Quinn. I support Senator Quinn because something must be done to improve matters. The current situation and the consequent delays are unacceptable. Indeed, there are discrepancies between counties and centres. Everybody has heard people say: "I will go to a different centre and I will pass it." That is not good enough and it must be dealt with.

I will support whatever is required to improve the situation.

The driving testing service has faced many challenges over recent years. The years 1998 and 1999 saw successive record numbers of applications for tests with 146,503 and 153,389 applications respectively. The trend so far suggests that these figures will be surpassed this year.

I compliment the Minister of State on how he is dealing with the backlog. The Department recruited 35 testers during 1998-1999. This increased testing capacity by over 90,000 tests annually. The Department has also negotiated certain productivity measures to increase overall capacity. Current testing capacity is approximately 200,000 and the Department is committed to recruiting additional testers to meet the target waiting time of ten weeks. If the waiting time were reduced even to 15 weeks it would be a huge improvement. Despite the ever increasing level of applications, the average waiting time has been reduced from 33 to 26 weeks.

Arrangements are in place to test applicants who require an urgent test at short notice for employment purposes. The Minister referred to this. It is a considerate development. There are currently almost 91,000 applications on hand but 15,800 of the applicants have indicated that they are not immediately available to undertake a test. Although the figures look bad, the situation is not as bad as it appears. If the Department recruits additional testers this year, the waiting list can be reduced dramatically. I hope this will be done.

I am delighted the House is having a debate on driving tests and the lack of centres throughout the country. The Minister of State said that the Government is in the process of introducing a theoretical test in addition to a practical driving test, which I sought many years ago. This has been in operation in the United States and many other countries for a number of years. People can seek a provisional licence which is handed out over the counter. In most cases people just glance at a book but they do not have a real knowledge of the rules of the road. To obtain a provisional licence in other countries, one must pass a test on the rules of the road, together with an eye test and so on. When one is called to do a driving test, one must undergo a driving test only, not a test on the rules of the road and so on. One can then concentrate on the driving test.

People in this country are at a disadvantage on the day of the test because they may be confused if they have to concentrate on doing a test on the rules of the road. This may result in their taking their eye off the ball and making a slight mistake such as hitting the kerb when parking the car or doing a three point turn. They may then have to repeat the test. I am surprised at the numbers of people who fail the test, even though the Minister of State said earlier that more people pass the test on the first occasion in this country than in the UK. I believe the new test being introduced in the autumn will reduce the failure rate to approximately 25%.

Many are critical of young people driving with provisional licences. Young people nowadays are very confident and should be complimented on their driving ability. While people may complain about the numbers waiting to do the driving test, I am pleased so many are applying to do so. This indicates that the economy is going forward. There was a time when 25,000 and 30,000 people coming out of third level education took the first boat or plane out of the country and did the test in other countries. These people were taken out of the system. However, all these people are now in the system which is good for the country. I am pleased the Minister of State has introduced regulations to privatise the testing and to bring back people who were formerly involved in the business. This is the way forward.

The Minister of State quoted statistics which show that the number of road deaths are decreasing. Many were critical of the NCT when it was introduced because they thought it was too severe. I disagree with this because if a car is not roadworthy it should not be on the road. Cars that are not roadworthy cause many accidents and I am pleased people are buying better quality cars.

There is a regulation whereby one can exchange a UK licence for an Irish driving licence. If one travels to the United States with an Irish driving licence, one can convert that into a US driving licence without difficulty. On the other hand, if one has an American driving licence and wishes to take up residence in this country, one cannot convert their US licence into an Irish driver's licence. This is unfair and something the Minister of State should consider.

I welcome the debate and compliment Senator Quinn on tabling the motion.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. The number of drivers has increased dramatically in the past ten years. One can witness this increase on any given day, one of the main reasons for which is the number of young people taking up driving. As a consequence, there are obvious problems for young people trying to obtain full licences. Testing is one of the problems.

The Minister of State outlined in his speech the efforts being made to deal with the backlog of driving tests, which by any standards is a very large number and must be dealt with. While in general I support the concept of the motion to privatise driving tests for drivers with provisional licences, this must be taken step by step. There must be a coherent development in the quality of drivers. I welcome the requirement for drivers with provisional licences to take a written test in order to obtain a full driver's licence. When I began driving many years ago, there were not the large numbers of vehicles on the roads that there are today. Beginning to drive today is much more intimidating than it was 20 years ago, or even ten years ago, therefore, the concept of a written test is a very good one.

No doubt there is a need to reduce the timescale between applying for a test and taking the test. Privatisation over a period could lead to a considerable reduction in the waiting time. I acknowledge the Minister of State has introduced considerable improvements which have led to a far greater number of tests taking place. However, the improvements do not seem to be keeping pace with the numbers requiring the tests. This is probably partly due to the Celtic tiger economy.

Senator Kiely referred to the quality of cars on our roads. There is no question that the quality of cars is improving on an ongoing basis following the introduction of the national car testing scheme. As I travelled on the motorway this morning I witnessed the engine of a car blow. I have not seen that happen for a long time. There has been a great improvement in the quality of cars on the roads and the national car testing scheme will ensure this remains the case.

Given the introduction of transition year in the education system, there is a great opportunity to educate young people of 15, 16 and 17 years of age in the whole concept of driving. In the future most people will drive cars and there is an opportunity during transition year to educate young people on the rules of the road and so on. Perhaps centres could be set up throughout the country where people could do a driving course in a controlled environment before going on the roads. These opportunities should be considered.

Those failing the test can drive away provided they are accompanied by a fully licensed driver. That should not be allowed because if somebody has failed a test, for whatever reason, they are not deemed competent to drive a car without a supervised driver beside them. Some people continue to drive on their fourth, fifth and sixth licence. This aspect needs to be assessed in greater detail.

Privatisation is the way to proceed. If we are properly to address the issue of the quality of drivers, we need to investigate if there is a need for fully licensed drivers to undergo further testing after a number of years. It may be unpalatable, but drivers can get into bad driving habits. It might be no harm to introduce a system to check and ensure that our driving is up to standard before we go on the roads.

I thank the speakers for their contributions. I am not sure about Senator Gibbons's last suggestion. I do not fancy having to take a test. I never passed a test because I obtained my licence at a time when it was not required.

This was a good debate from which I learnt much. I also learnt much from the Minster of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy. His statistics indicating that the 33 week waiting list has been reduced to 26 weeks is hardly a cause of pride. There have been 170,000 applications this year, an increase of 45% on four years ago. I understand the problems here.

I was most surprised by the failure rate. Some 59% of those doing the test pass on the first occasion. It means that 41% fail. It reminds me of the joke posed by the question: "Can you prove you are sane?" and answered by: "You cannot? I have a certificate to prove I am sane because I got it from the mental hospital when I was released." Here, 41% of drivers have proved they cannot drive properly, yet they continue to drive on the roads. That worries me.

However, I was impressed by the Minster of State, Deputy Molloy. His heart is in the right place, but he defended the indefensible. He referred to the extraordinary increase in demand as if he wanted us to sympathise with him because he was doing his best. He knows the answer is marketplace, which would anticipate this increase in demand.

I do not have a hang-up about the marketplace being the right solution. Senator Coogan referred to the possibility of a public-private sector partnership. Something must be done and the marketplace is one way in which demand can be anticipated. If we had adhered to the old system for telephones in the 1970s, it could not have handled the changes in that area. If we had left the airline business in the hands of one or two State owned carriers we could not have anticipated the number of people travelling by air.

I will not oppose the amendment. It is actions that count. Approximately 500 people are killed on our roads every year and approximately 400,000 unqualified people drive on them. If we believe driver performance is an issue in road safety – as we must – then nobody could defend our system in absolute terms. They might defend it on the basis that it is the best way of dealing with problems as they stand, but nobody could claim that we could continue with it on a permanent basis.

The present system will never give us an acceptable result. There is another way. While we can talk about the way things were in the past, how they have been improved and the excuses for the present difficulties, we need to ask if we have confidence that this system can deliver what the country is entitled to expect in the immediate future. Regrettably, it cannot.

The facts force us to only one conclusion. We must find another way, whatever it is. It is not difficult. We do not have to make it up. It is there for us to copy and it can be done in the private sector or by a public-private sector partnership. It could also be done by a public sector agency that is bounded and tightly controlled by performance targets. Whatever way we favour, it could be up and running within months. It is not difficult – it is not rocket science. We can solve the problem almost immediately. Why do we not do so? I will take that question with me when I drive home tonight. I hope I drive very safely and that I do no bump into some of the 41% of drivers who failed their test but are permitted to continue to drive.

The Minister of State's heart is in the right place. He has shown it in the way he has tackled the taxi problem. This is his opportunity to grasp this issue and resolve it immediately. Two of my colleagues had apparently other things to do and were not available to second the motion. I appreciate the support of the Fine Gael bench and I thank Senator Coogan for seconding it.

Amendment put and declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 tomorrow morning.

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