The proposed Order of Business is No. 3, statements on the White Paper on Rural Development (resumed). When we last discussed this on 9 March the time agreed was ten minutes for spokespersons and eight minutes for others. I am prepared to review that if required.
Order of Business.
Has the Government lost the plot in the way it orders business in the House? Today's business is derisory. Almost everybody on my side of the House who wants to speak on No. 3 has spoken already, so they are barred from speaking again. We have no speakers to offer. Four or five Members from the Fine Gael Party have spoken, including all our spokespersons. We may have one speaker today.
This is a contemptible way to organise business. What is happening? A Chathaoirligh, I do not think it is right that Dáil broadcasts should be relayed on the television monitor during the Order of Business, much as I admire looking at the Tánaiste.
The Senator should look behind him where he is on view.
I made a simple request to the Deputy Leader on the Order of Business yesterday and to the Leader on the previous day. I asked that the old practice be restored whereby Members on the Opposition benches would be given a couple of weeks notice of likely impending business. This was done in the past. It is a modest request to enable Members order their own business. On the first day the Leader replied with a bluster on what a great Government he led, which is the job of the Taoiseach as far as I know, and yesterday the Deputy Leader, almost vying to out-bluster the Leader, responded in much the same way.
It is a simple request. We would like to know, as far as possible in advance, what business is planned so that we can organise our business. I remind the Deputy Leader that the business of the House is done largely through co-operation. If the Opposition cannot get that simple type of co-operation we will have to look at the way we co-operate with the Government.
Given that so little business is proposed today, could Government time be provided to hold a debate on the words of Mr. Justice Kelly yesterday, when he indicated he is about to cite three Ministers for contempt? It is a scandal that this situation, where the State cannot provide secure accommodation for a disturbed young child, and which has been ongoing for months, has not been resolved. What is happening? We have a right to know. I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange for the Minister responsible to attend the House today, not the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, who is sent out to bat – she does it well – on these difficult occasions. We have the time to debate this very important matter.
The ordering of business has been raised by my group over the last week. It is understandable when the House returns that there is difficulty in ordering business, but the business proposed for today does not amount to a day's sitting. It is inappropriate.
On No. 3 I suggest that speakers have 15 minutes. I also suggest we take another item. Members have asked for debates on various matters. There was a recent commitment to hold a debate on education. We have sought a further debate on the Shannon River Council. There has also been a request for a debate on drugs policy. Many items could have been added to today's business. We should consider doing that.
Yesterday on the Order of Business I raised a matter involving the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I am glad that, following a report of the proceedings in the House yesterday, he has somewhat moved back his position and has played the oldest trick in the politician's book of blaming the media for incorrectly reporting him and then blaming me for misinterpreting him. One way or another the fact that he has backed off to some extent is welcome but I hope he has learned the lesson that consultation is the best way of doing business. I will take up with him and with Government the question of the lack of consultation in a partnership context.
We have had a number of debates on the ques tion of housing and we have seen the impact of the various Bacon reports. There is a view that some change is taking place in the housing market and we now need to examine the details of that. There are aspects of the whole housing area that we need to examine, and one in particular which many people will understand. People who buy houses often have to get support in the repayments and that can mean that their friends or others have to share the house with them but in doing that, under the third Bacon report they lose the improvement in the stamp duty. That is an example of one of the smaller aspects that came out of the Bacon report but it is important that we examine it. It is a progressive and positive measure and we need to determine if we need to change it in various ways.
I seek clarification from the Deputy Leader in relation to motions Nos. 1 and 2 on the Order Paper. Are they being pursued today or are we talking purely about No. 3?
They are not being pursued.
I understood we had agreed on the last occasion that No. 2 would be debated. That was indicated in the listing that was sent out to us.
They are not being debated.
I agree entirely with what Senator Manning said. This is an outrageous Order of Business. We are resuming a debate in which many speakers have already spoken, and that is the entire business for today. I am not sure if Senator Manning has actually proposed that we amend the Order of Business but if he has not, I propose that we have a debate on the question of young children at risk who are coming before the courts, one of the scandals of our society. It is unprecedented that a judge has had to cite three Cabinet Ministers for contempt. These Ministers could go to prison, be fined or have the assets of their Departments seized because of failure to carry out their duties.
This House should take the opportunity, as time is available today, to debate that issue and broaden it to include not just the one individual but all the young offenders coming before the courts who are at risk and for whom appropriate places are not being found. That is a serious issue and it would also connect with the request from Senator O'Toole for a debate on housing because it is related to homelessness. Most of those young people at risk end up homeless on our streets. In that context I propose that we amend the Order of Business to have a debate on those matters today.
I ask the Deputy Leader for an early debate on the scandal surrounding the moneys allocated by the European Union to the Third World. It emerged recently that 20 billion ecus were allocated but have not been spent and the Commissioner in charge of development has come out with the amazing statement that these moneys will be spent before 2007. This money should be spent now. It was allocated over the past two or three years to the poorest countries in the world and the EU is saying it will put the matter right before 2007. I am concerned that moneys allocated in the year 2000 will not be spent until the year 2020. The poorest countries in the world are suffering. This money is in the EU budget and, unfortunately, much of it will be spent on addressing the problems in eastern Europe and in non-Third World countries.
Senator Lanigan must not pre-empt the debate he is seeking.
I am not pre-empting the debate but this is a scandal.
Does the Senator wish to raise a second matter?
In terms of the media, there is a—
(Interruptions.)
It depends which side one is on. The Senators opposite can do away with Standing Orders. I want to do away with Standing Orders to address certain points as well.
I want to raise what I consider to be a serious matter. There was a train crash in Britain the day before yesterday and Sky News spent about an hour and a half continuously suggesting that the crash was the work of Irish terrorists. I have no time for terrorists of any description but there was much hype surrounding this accident on the part of the media, and in particular by Sky News, in that it implied that the crash was or could have been caused by Irish terrorists. The media should show some responsibility in this regard. In the past weeks, the print media reporting of an incident in Kilkenny was an absolute scandal. The media has as much responsibility for the way it reports items as we have in the way we debate them.
The 88th Battalion is heading off this weekend to join UNIFIL, perhaps the final contingent from Ireland to do so. These are 173 young people, from the age of 18 upwards, who have never travelled outside Ireland. The troops who have served with UNIFIL in the Lebanon for many years have done Ireland proud and if this is to be the last battalion to go out there, which hopefully signals an end to the problems in Lebanon, this House should commend the contribution the Irish Army has made to UNIFIL over the years and wish these young men and women well during their six months tour of duty in Lebanon. There are quite a number of women among them.
Members may not be aware that today is International Credit Union Day. If time could be found in the weeks ahead, could we have a discussion on the credit union movement? It is over 40 years since it was founded. There are over 500 offices nationwide, it employs over 1,000 staff and it has nearly two million members. I ask the Deputy Leader to provide for a short debate in the weeks ahead on an institution which has been integral to small savers in particular.
Second, I ask for a debate on aspects of the insurance industry. I have called for such a debate in the past. Following the Insurance Ombudsman's report and other matters, perhaps a short debate could be arranged.
Third, I support what our leader, Senator Manning, and Senator Costello said about the judgment yesterday. Without going into the specifics, it is clear that a major problem exists. There is also a major problem in relation to the question of detention. There is another individual who has escaped on more than 50 occasions because there does not seem to be adequate care. This person has escaped at will and has caused problems and committed further crimes.
I call for a debate also on aspects of detention centres and the prison service because, during the summer, one individual decided to take a driving lesson and did not return. Another individual in the Dundrum area headed off on his scooter with half his house behind him and did not return. It is important that this matter be dealt with and I formally second the proposal from Senator Costello.
I support Senator Cosgrave's last suggestion about a debate on children who have such serious problems. I ask the Deputy Leader to ensure that when the Minister comes into the House, as well as looking at the serious situation regarding these individual children, he will address the problem of the shortage of probation officers and the lack of urgently needed reports from them on children who are before the courts. This leads to serious delays in some court cases involving children and indeed some cases being abandoned. If an early response was made in child care cases, we might not have to deal with these very serious cases that have been mentioned.
Today a prominent social worker referred to a time bomb facing Irish society and referred to it as one of the greatest social evils facing our people. It seems thousands of elderly people are being physically, emotionally and financially abused. This is a serious problem, given that some of the sick and infirm are exploited by children, relatives, friends and spouses. Like children who are abused, elderly people in a similar situation are helpless and vulnerable. Their silent suffering is a cry for help and assistance from legislators. There is even a strong argument for providing dedicated refuge centres for such people. In light of this report, which should not be ignored, it is important the Deputy Leader should arrange as a matter of urgency for a debate on this matter.
From the many calls for debates by Members, it is evident the business ordered for today is not good enough. I am sure many people are interested in rural development, but there are many topical serious issues that are literally matters of life and death. I called yesterday for a debate on health and I reiterate that request. I do not know why we could not have such a debate today. I am talking about preventative measures, specifically related to women's health in the area of cancer. I call on the Deputy Leader again to ask the Leader to listen to the topics on which Members are requesting debates rather than simply tabling an item that has been on the Order Paper for months and months.
Many arguments were put forward as to why there is a shortage of houses in the greater Dublin area. A key factor hampering the supply of houses is the lack of staff in local authorities to speed up the planning process. When action plans are prepared, staff are not available to process them. I support my colleague, Senator Farrell, on the manner in which An Bord Pleanála stymies the planning process. A debate on the shortage of houses and the housing situation was called for this morning. Added to that is the manner in which the provisions of the new planning legislation can be implemented. Given that much doubt surrounds this area, this is an appropriate Chamber for a full debate on planning and the housing shortage in the greater Dublin area.
I support fully the points made by Senator Manning and others regarding the business as ordered. I fail to understand how the Government side cannot indicate the business that is likely – it need not be definitive – in the period ahead. By failing to do so, the Government is treating the House very discourteously. It is giving the House and its Members the mushroom treatment. The Leader is meant to be a conduit between this House and the Government. I am slow to suggest it, but I wonder aloud if the Government is giving the Leader the mushroom treatment. In any event, it is not good enough.
Will the Deputy Leader consider giving Government time to debate a topical item, No. 17, motion 7, expressing support for the retention of the groceries order, an order which has been under review for a considerable period. It might be considered suitable for debate. I listened with great interest to the Tánaiste speak on the subject in the other House last week and she might be asked to come to this House and discuss it with us. The taking of that motion should be given consideration.
Will the Deputy Leader indicate when the Insurance Bill will be before this House, given that it has passed all Stages in the other House?
Will the Senator define "mushroom treatment"?.
I learned that from Members on the Government side since I became a Member of this House.
I support the call by Senator O'Toole for a debate on education. While I recognise the great strides that have been made by the Minister for Education and Science in funding for children with autism, we are failing in our responsibility to children with other special needs. We do not have enough structures in place to support the desire of many children with special needs and their families for such children to enter mainstream education. We need more assessments, psychologists, remedial teachers and resource teachers. I would like the Minister for Education and Science to discuss this issue, as a matter of urgency, in this House with the objective of ensuring that more and more children with special needs enter mainstream education.
I agree strongly with the approach taken by Senator Manning to the Order of Business and compliment him on the balanced and serious way in which he dealt with this matter. We can clearly see the degree of urgency about this debate, on which apparently we will spend the entire day, in the fact that it is a hangover from March. Many Members have made their views known. In the past I have spoken on rural issues and I have been derided because of my Dublin 1 address. However, far be it from me to carp. I am not a member of the Opposition; I am a loyal Independent and, as such, I believe in a constructive approach to the work of this House.
In an attempt to be helpful since there is obviously going to be a considerable amount of time left over today, I suggest we make a clear, precise and definite change to the Order of Business. I propose that instead of the business proposed by the Government, which is flatulent in the extreme, we take the No. 17, motion 19, "That Seanad Éireann calls for a radical review of the funding of political parties and public life in Ireland, a review of the role and regulation of political lobbyists and a review of the ethical standards which should underpin and regulate public life in Ireland." That motion is in the name of all the party leaders. It is an all-party motion.
It is a serious issue. I think we can all agree that if we support this all-party motion, let us unanimously vote to alter the Order of Business to take this important all-party motion against which I am quite certain the Government would not have the effrontery to vote.
I support what Labhrás Ó Murchú said about the need to care for the elderly in a changing society.
Will the Deputy Leader bring to the attention of the Tánaiste the varying and high prices of petrol and diesel throughout the country? The price of green diesel has increased by 65% since May 1999 compared to the price of white diesel which has increased by 45%.
Change the colour.
The only difference between them is the colouring, which is done for excise purposes. I ask the Deputy Leader to take up this matter urgently with the Tánaiste.
Will the Deputy Leader bring to the attention of Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Fahey, the position on the imminent announcement by Enterprise Oil regarding the Corrib gas field and by An Bord Gáis regarding the link up with the national grid? Will he ask the Minister what arrangements, if any, the Department will make to finance the necessary spurs from the pipeline to the major towns in the west, particularly in County Mayo? In Mayo alone, there are four major towns within a 15 mile radius of the major pipeline, but Enterprise Oil, being a commercial operation, will not finance those spurs, which are needed.
A debate on rural development is ordered for today. Such development could be given a boost if those spur lines were financed. That is badly needed by industry in the west and if we are to attract the multinationals. Given that Enterprise Oil will not put in the spur lines, the Government will have to do it. I request the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister his intentions in this regard.
I support Senator Ó Murchú's call for a debate on the elderly. Many elderly people are afraid to go out during the day because they have been robbed in broad daylight. We need to debate this and to establish that many bank robberies and robberies from the elderly are committed by people travelling a distance to do so. It is time we had an identity card system so that when gardaí pull a car or van over they can ascertain the occupants' identities. If a crime is committed later the gardaí would know who had travelled that road. At present they cannot do that. Desperate ailments need desperate treatment.
I also support Senator Lanigan's call for a debate on the media. During the summer a young man committed suicide allegedly because of the amount of adverse publicity he got. If that could be attributed to a politician he or she would be dragged over the coals. It is time for a regulatory body to ensure people get justice, as some headlines are scandalous, referring to "dying people", for instance, and using nicknames.
Those points could be made during the debate.
Everyone, including criminals in Mountjoy, is entitled to be called by the name by which they were baptised. This media game of cornerboy tactics, using nicknames and false headlines, is scandalous.
I second Senator Norris's proposal. Senator Lanigan's comments on rail safety and the recent rail accident at Hatfield in England should remind us of rail safety in Ireland. Many Members have expressed interest in that topic. Since we last debated this matter there has been a lot of work done on track renewal in Ireland, which is welcome, but there are probably hundreds of miles of substandard track in the rail system which is itself at risk. Although it has not been confirmed officially, we understand that the Hatfield accident was a result of track failure and the last rail accident in Ireland, with which the Chair and I are familiar, was also the result of track failure, though it did not have the same consequences as the Hatfield accident.
The Minister for Public Enterprise should give us an update on track renewal in Ireland and on how much of the existing track is at risk and needs renewal. That is very important.
I support Members who called for a debate on detention facilities for young offenders, particularly in the light of yesterday's events. However, we should have a realistic debate and take all sides of the discussion on board, particularly the legitimate concerns of the communities in which these places of detention are located. In certain areas there is concern about community representation on the boards of management of these centres and whether such representation is a mere exercise in tokenism. Unfortunately, the indicators are that that is the case. When these places were set up, the idea of significant community representation on the boards of management was an excellent one, but it would appear that such representation has amounted to nothing more than an exercise in tokenism. I support the call for a debate, but I ask that this matter be given full consideration. We cannot have another example of the NIMBY syndrome – there is enough of that in the country already.
Regarding the shortage of staff in the public service, I draw particular attention to the shortage of staff in the health service. At a time when health boards are recruiting nurses throughout the world, Irish girls cannot get into nursing because of the points system. The amount of disappointed girls every September is growing year by year. Many of them come to my clinic and are deeply disappointed they cannot get into nursing. It is a profession many such girls would like to get into and the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Education and Science – whoever is responsible – should address the House on this important matter.
It amazes me how the Houses of the Oireachtas order their business. We always start a new session at a snail's pace and then at the end of the session we are inundated with legislation. For example, on the last day of the last session three Bills passed all Stages. That is not a good way to order business.
I seek a debate on the ESRI report published this morning. The report shows that private patients are getting a substantial number of beds in public hospitals and as a result, public patients are waiting longer for elective surgery. I seek a debate on the report and on waiting lists.
This may take some time. I understand Senator Manning's frustration. I experienced the same when on that side of the House. I am anxious we do everything we can to ensure the House runs smoothly, so I suggest the Whips meet after the Order of Business to agree a way forward on this issue.
It has been common practice, irrespective of who is in Government, for the Whip's notice to be sent out during the week and in most instances the notice given is no longer than that. That is not to say that something could not be done to indicate what is coming down the line. The Chair would agree that it would not be appropriate to order business on the hoof, so to speak. We try to respond to requests for debates, but it takes time to get Ministers. I do not use that as an excuse, as they should be here for those debates, but it would be quite impossible to accommodate a debate requested on the Order of Business of the same day. That is the reality.
Regarding today's business, I regard the White Paper on Rural Development as being an important document. It is very important to a large number of people and it is worth pointing out that when this was last debated there was nobody here from the Labour Party and Independent benches and two Fine Gael Senators contributed. There are still Government Members who wish to contribute and it is appropriate that this important subject be discussed today.
Senator O'Toole raised the issue of the impact of the Bacon report on housing. Some of the benefits appear to be coming through and it would be appropriate to debate that in the near future. Senator Costello made a similar request.
Senators Costello, O'Toole, Cosgrave, Henry, Glennon and others raised the issue of child care, but the reality is that this matter is up for mention in the High Court today. The Chair would accept that it is probably not appropriate to debate it today, although that is not to say that the issues arising from it are not very grave and that they should not be discussed here. However, this may not be the appropriate time to discuss those issues. There were calls yesterday for a debate on aspects of the health service and I reiterate that I will do everything possible to ensure the debate is held and that this matter is discussed within its ambit.
What about next week?
The Whips can discuss the matter after the Order of Business.
In regard to the tragic case which arose yesterday, it was interesting that Fr. Peter McVerry stated on radio this morning that it was the result of 20 years of neglect and that it would be impossible for any Minister to pull a rabbit out of a hat at a moment's notice. Having said that, a suitable house was found for the person in question at a cost of £250,000. Eight dedicated staff were provided, as were counselling, therapy and education services. Anything the health board has sought in this case has been provided. The Minister stated this morning that in regard to securing a safe place for the child in the short term, departmental officials have confirmed to the health board that she will be cared for on an emergency basis when she is found. As this matter is currently before the courts, it might be preferable to discuss it at a later date, but in the near future.
Senator Lanigan raised the matter of EU development aid and I agree with his comments. Media reports of the recent rail accident indicated that terrorists or vandals could be involved but it turned out to be a case of rail failure. Speculation which is not backed up by facts is merely irresponsible journalism. I join the Senator in congratulating the UNIFIL 88th Battalion. We have discussed Army issues in this House on many occasions and have expressed our gratitude and pride in regard to the manner in which its members conduct themselves overseas on peacekeeping and peace enforcement missions.
Senator Cosgrave raised the matter of the International Credit Union Day. Senators have often congratulated the credit unions on the service they provide to their two million members. I am sure the Minister for Finance would be delighted to come into the House to discuss this issue.
No doubt he would. He is back on speaking terms with the credit unions.
Senator Cosgrave also raised the issue of the insurance ombudsman.
Senator Henry referred to the shortage of probation officers. A debate on this matter might be more appropriate to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, rather than Health and Children.
Senators Ó Murchú, Callanan and Farrell made a very strong case in regard to the abuse of vulnerable elderly people. This is an appalling and hidden problem. Elderly people are not in a position to defend themselves and I agree with Senator Ó Murchú's description of a "time bomb". This matter should be discussed, possibly within the context of the health debate. Senator Cox raised the issue of autism and that, too, could be discussed during the debate on health.
Senator Ormonde referred to staffing in Bord Pleanála. This problem impinges on the Bacon Report and could be dealt with in that context. Delays in the planning process do not help to pro vide a supply of affordable housing to young people who are trying to buy their first homes.
Senator Coghlan referred to the groceries order. I understand a decision on this is due in the near future. Like him, I am hoping the order will be retained as its abolition would have serious implications for small rural shops, towns and villages. I am aware that certain people hold a contrary opinion.
I have stated that the insurance Bill is ordered for next week. I hope the Cathaoirleach will excuse me for being pedantic but there is no No. 19 on the Order Paper. There is, however, a motion No. 19 under No. 17.
Pedantry suits the Deputy Leader. It lends him a professorial air.
I am always anxious to assist Senator Norris but regret that I cannot accept his amendment to the Order of Business.
Senator Callanan raised the important issue of diesel prices. Senator Caffrey referred to the Minister of the Marine and Natural Resources and the Corrib Field. This issue could perhaps be dealt with as an Adjournment matter. I note that there are not any motions on the Adjournment today. I am not saying this issue does not have a wider national context but the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources was present in the House yesterday and, given his flexibility, it would have been possible to make those points to him.
I have dealt with the issue of the media which was also raised by Senator Farrell. Senator Connor referred to rail infrastructure and track quality and I will bring those matters to the attention of the Minister for Public Enterprise. We have discussed this matter in the past-—
We need updating.
We will provide the Senator with an update.
I would like to hear from the Minister herself.
Senator Glennon raised the issue of detention facilities and that would be covered by my earlier comments. Senator Hayes referred to the shortage of staff in the health services and that could be dealt with in the health debate.
I agree with Senators Doyle and Manning that it is unsatisfactory to have to deal with a plethora of legislation at the end of a session. We should have sufficient time to examine and debate legislation properly.
With regard to the ESRI report on public beds in hospitals and the fact that private patients are being subsidised, I am aware it is part of the Government's objective that the State should recover costs. That was why the report was commissioned, although it is likely to result in increases in BUPA and VHI premia. The objec tive is to introduce the increases slowly over a five year period in order to bring us into line.
The waiting lists for those who do not have insurance will become longer.
I accept that, but the point was also made this morning that up to 70% of admissions to accident and emergency units are private patients who must receive the first available bed. This matter could also be discussed during the health debate.
On a point of order, the Deputy Leader stated that only two Fine Gael speakers had spoken during the debate on the White Paper when in fact Senators Hayes, Caffrey and Connor have already spoken and Senator Coghlan was waiting to contribute.
The Deputy Leader is back to himself today. He is much better when he is being reasonable rather than attempting to do a poor imitation of somebody else.
In view of Senator Manning's compliment, I am prepared to stand corrected. I will also accommodate his request for more time during today's debate.
Two amendments have been proposed to the Order of Business. Amendment No. 1 in the name of Senator Costello states:
That the Seanad should debate after No. 3 the question of young children at risk who are before the courts and for whom there is no appropriate accommodation.
Is the amendment being pressed?
In view of the Deputy Leader's reasonable approach to this matter which is before the High Court today, I will not press the amendment.
Amendment No. 1 not moved.
I move amendment No. 2:
That No. 3 be deleted and No. 17, motion No. 19, be substituted in its stead.
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary. |
Keogh, Helen.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Toole, Joe.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane. |
Níl
|
Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Chambers, Frank.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony. |
Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Ross; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.