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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Dec 2009

Vol. 198 No. 9

Order of Business (Resumed).

I welcome the fact that we are going to debate the report on child abuse and the flooding later in the week. There are many reasons for failure but there are no excuses. I hope that the debate will focus on how best to go from here and how to help the many who have suffered as a result of the abuse and the floods.

I hope that these debates can be constructive. I am not sure the television programme "The Frontline" serves us well. It feeds anger but, far from providing a forum to find solutions, it is more like a Monday night firing squad, in line with Jerry Springer's and Jeremy Kyle's programmes.

It is like Jerry Springer for sure.

Pat Kenny, who is such a professional and fantastic broadcaster, who has done so much for Ireland, is debasing himself every week——

It is real life misery.

——in the interest of feeding anger, being populist and sensationalist, rather than doing what he did so well in many other aspects of his career, providing solutions to our problems.

Solutions are the Senator's job.

No interruptions.

I do not intend to take from the real difficulties people are suffering. I hope we can focus on providing solutions rather than feeding into that process.

I welcome the fact that we will have an opportunity today to comment on the budget. It is appropriate that we do this in advance of discussing the Murphy report and the flooding because the budget will be announced tomorrow week. For the legitimacy of this House it is important that its Members have their opportunity to feed into that process. I hope that as many as possible will participate in this afternoon's debate.

It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge and pay tribute to the unions and others in Government Buildings for making substantial progress over the past long days and nights. I am hopeful that the postponement of the strike on Thursday means that a deal is imminent and I hope that the outstanding health issues can be dealt with. If we are to overcome the economic difficulties facing us it is critical to move forward together with the support of workers, employers and all sectors of our community.

I believe it is very important that we debate the Murphy report on Thursday. These are heavy days for people of goodwill at all levels of the Catholic church and outside it because of the abuse and the fact that the handling of these cases was characterised by massive incompetence, and sometimes more than that, and ineptitude farther back in the past. Like Senator O'Sullivan, I have had the impression in recent days that people who had very little concern about child protection issues were acting as though they had won an All-Ireland final and taking the opportunity to pursue separate agendas. I hope the Church would not fear a national audit. I believe in the maxim "the truth will set you free". When we hear the full story of abuse in the church, this will be a better society for it and we will, I hope, continue to examine abuses across society. The 96% of cases outside the church context should be of as much interest to us.

I have great respect for Senator O'Toole but, with the best will in the world, he may have caused a misunderstanding about a possible conflict of interest in respect of the role of bishops. There is a designated liaison person in each school who must contact the HSE where an allegation is made. By the time the patron is notified, the train of accountability has left the station. It is interesting to know that if a chaplain is involved, we find that diocesan guidelines are generally even more strict. If the person against whom an allegation is made is a chaplain, that person is gone straightaway and much quicker than if he was a lay teacher. The Catholic Primary School Management Association has been pushing for a review of the Children First guidelines, published nine years ago and for which the Ferns report called, but this has still not happened. This must be part of the debate also.

In recent days I have been talking to people involved in education management. It is a fact that voluntary schools are receiving on average €200 less per child than VEC schools and €90 less per child than secondary schools that are community schools. This is not cherishing the children of the nation equally. We have a situation where 30% of their budgets has to be raised through fundraising activities.

The Senator can raise that matter on the Adjournment.

I hope we can have a debate on the fair funding of all educational institutions by the Department.

I am glad we will be having a discussion on the Murphy report. All abuse is wrong, horrendous and ruins the lives of those abused. We must focus on the persons who have been abused, but we also have to protect children such as those in the Visitors Gallery, as well as young people in different age groups. If they suffer clerical or any other form of abuse, they should feel confident enough to come forward and talk to somebody. Many victims carry the burden for some time before they feel confident to tell somebody about it. No matter how high a position in society an abuser holds, victims should have the confidence to come forward and be sure their allegations will be treated seriously. There have been allegations against priests in my constituency in the past, some of which have been malicious. The evidence in the Murphy report is very clear, but we also have the other side of the coin where allegations that are not substantiated can cause as much difficulty for the persons accused. I welcome the fact that we will debate the issue.

Translink and Iarnród Éireann operate the Enterprise train service which was out of commission for a few months due to a breakdown in the infrastructure at Malahide. It is now back in action, but the companies in question are back to their old trick of exploiting those who pay in euro. I can buy a return ticket from Belfast for £20 and take the return journey at any time within one month, but a single journey from Dublin costs €38. A cup of coffee costs £1.60 or €2.40. This exploitation by a joint operation must be addressed. I ask the Leader to again bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Transport.

I join colleagues in welcoming the debate that will take place on the Murphy report and its conclusions. In the last two weeks the Ombudsman for Children published a report on the number of separated children in the country and the way in which they are being cared for. While I hope none of those children has been subject to the abuse documented in the Murphy report, it is very clear they are being treated in a way that is not in keeping with the standards and attitudes we are looking to achieve, particularly in light of the report and the discussion we are having. I hope we can keep this in mind in any debate we have on this issue.

My second point concerns the role of State authorities, which my colleagues have pointed to already. To find at best incompetence and, worse, the appearance of collusion with State authorities and the church, if anything, makes the evil and disgrace we are talking about of a greater order. I welcome the fact the Garda Commissioner has ordered that one of his assistant commissioners will immediately investigate this and prepare a report for the DPP to ascertain whether there is any case for criminal liability that can be acted upon.

I conclude by making reference to the discussions on social partnership taking place in Government Buildings. As others have done, I welcome the huge endeavour and labour from both sides. One concern I have is the apparent plan to reduce the number of hours worked in return for agreement to wage reductions. If one considers the issues we raise each day, such as the length of the school year, the delays in medical card applications and delays in social welfare cases being dealt with, we have to ask whether those problems will get better or whether they will get worse if such an agreement is implemented.

I compliment the Leader on ordering the debate on the Murphy report for Thursday. It is essential that the voices of these Houses are heard in this regard. I agree with Senator John Paul Phelan that while much of the information was in the public domain previously, its compilation in one document sends shockwaves through reasonable people everywhere, who are appalled by it.

This underlines the need for the State to have robust and effective measures in place. In that regard, as a Christian and a Catholic, I believe in the whole tenet of penance and atonement. In such a capacity, I find myself in agreement with Senator Bacik about people in high places taking responsibility for either actions or inaction. However, as a politician, I am inclined to the view of Senator O'Toole that is not really for us to call on people to resign. We are not particularly good at it ourselves either, as a profession.

The Senator can speak about his own side.

My views are well known with regard to the right to life, which is the most fundamental of all human rights. Nobody has the right to interfere with it in any shape or form. However, a very close second to that crime would be the defilement and destruction of the innocence of people. There is a very short period in people's lives, up to adolescence and perhaps a little beyond, where the joy and innocence of that era should not be defiled or stolen from children. Unfortunately, we have found in the past that this did happen. Therefore, it is essential that people take responsibility.

I hope that we can broaden Thursday's debate beyond the percentage of victims who are subjected to abusive people in the clergy to the broader issue of sexual abuse right across society, from other organisations and within the family. It is important we do not lose sight of the need for protective measures to be in place throughout society.

I support Senator John Paul Phelan in regard to the amendment to the Order of Business in bringing forward the flooding debate, which is essential at the present time because flooding is a national disaster. Each local authority was to agree a framework document by the end of September 2008, and that document was to be reappraised at the end of each following year. What has happened to towns like Clonmel, which had previous flooding? What happened to the appraisals? Has the Minister taken this into account because, if he did, nothing happened and no funding was put in place to alleviate future flooding.

I ask the Leader for a debate with regard to public private partnerships, a request I have made before. I heard the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government state on radio recently that he had to write a cheque for €30 million for the Ringsend plant. At the time this project was put in place, the then Minister, Deputy Cullen, said it was the bees knees of all waste water treatment units and a state of the art centre of excellence. It did not work properly and there were problems. Annual inflation charges are being put in place as they were agreed within the public private partnerships. As we are in a deflationary position, what can be done about these? We need a debate on those public private partnerships.

I know there is an ongoing debate in the House on flooding but I compliment the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Mansergh, for visiting Carrick-on-Shannon and other areas in that part of the country this morning.

Mr. Jim Higgins was down there too.

He was flying and was not able to see the depth of the flood from the air. There is a need for a full debate on the management of the Shannon and other river basins as soon as possible. If there could be proper management, it might help to alleviate some of the problems we have seen up and down the country for the past week or ten days. I appeal to the Leader to arrange for that as soon as possible.

We can debate what has happened but we must also look to the future. We can do nothing about yesterday but we might be able to ensure the hardship suffered by people up and down the country as a result of these problems will not be inflicted on a future generation. If that means walking on the toes of some of the so-called protective organisations, it will have to be done. Will we protect our population or will we protect birds, flowers and fauna?

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Bacik, Twomey, Ormonde, Norris, O'Donovan, Healy Eames, Ó Murchú, Phelan, Hanafin, McFadden, O'Sullivan, Regan, MacSharry, Mullen, Keaveney, Donohoe, Walsh, Burke and Ellis expressed their shock and horror at the experiences from the flooding. We have seen this right across the country over the past week. I commend the Civil Defence, the Army, the IFA, the GAA, the Garda and all the emergency services for the great work they have done.

Many organisations did not see this coming but we heard on radio this morning the rainfall which fell in November, or even the past three or six months. It is unprecedented in the previous 150 years. As Senator Ellis, one of the longest-serving Members of the Oireachtas, has said, we must look for solutions. I have left all day aside next Friday for colleagues to come to the House to debate the matter.

I hope much will emerge over the next two or three days and that the report published at a high cost to the State in 1995 can be discussed. That report took in three previous reports so there is much hard work, experience and expertise available in the Oireachtas Library or in electronic form. I assured the House it would be available and I thank the librarian and all the staff for the hard work done over the weekend to make it available to us.

I look forward to the many contributions that will be made next Friday. Our hearts go out to the hundreds of displaced families who had to move to other accommodation. The hardship and suffering that families are experiencing is unbelievable. This is only 1 December and I hope the winter will not be as inclement as November has been. As Senators we will do anything we can to help and as Members have said, we will need substantial EU funding.

I commend the Taoiseach, his Cabinet colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Mansergh, who visited every area as days went by. I hope we can take on board the experience of Kilkenny, where successful work has taken place. Much investment is needed in the area and it will take time. We should start the work and continue with our support.

Some €50 million has been put in by the Government this year but in the case of Cork, for example, there were difficulties which led to 80,000 people having no running water. These are unprecedented problems and there are new challenges which we must meet as an island nation. The will exists on all sides of the House and substantial funding from the EU will have to be made available.

All Senators expressed their concerns, shock and horror at the findings of the Murphy report, which will be debated in the House all afternoon and evening on Thursday. If the debate must be rolled over for another week, I have no difficulty in doing so. There will be as many debating opportunities as is required for Members to make submissions and see what can be done. I agree with Senator Ó Murchú in noting that thousands of men and women have given their lives down through the years to help in the mission fields or Ireland as priests and nuns. However, there is never a wrong time to say the right thing. A big wrong has been done and we are here to protect our children. As Senator O'Toole noted, the safeguarding of our children is paramount as far as we are concerned.

Senators Twomey, MacSharry and O'Donohoe all expressed wishes that the talks will bear fruit and the strike will be called off on Thursday. I join Senator MacSharry in hoping the proposed strike will be deferred, postponed or cancelled and that a solution can be found. It is around the table that partners must agree the formula on the €4 billion in savings and there is only one more week to go. The possibility of having a strike on Thursday should not interfere with the serious work that is needed in the long term. The issue must be tackled and efforts must bear fruit. I hope the talks will be successful and I wish them well.

Senator O'Donovan spoke on the rights of the child. He held a role as Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Constitution and excelled in that position as a Deputy. I agree with the sentiments he has expressed and there will be a debate here in the new year, if required, on the matters he raised in the House.

Senator Bacik congratulated all concerned on the opening of the Courts Service building on Parkgate Street. It is a magnificent building and I agree fully with the Senator's expressions.

Senators Leyden, Regan and MacSharry commented on the Lisbon treaty coming into effect from today. I congratulate our new Commissioner, Ms Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, on receiving a very senior portfolio dealing with innovation. Mr. Barroso has said he is looking forward to her playing the leading role that Europe needs on the cutting edge, particularly with competition from India, China and other countries. We all wish the Commissioner well.

Senator Leyden expressed serious concerns on the high insurance costs for the legal profession. I agree with the Senator's expressions and we will keep a close eye on the matter. I hope the closing date will be extended as the contribution by the legal professions in this country has been second to none.

Senator Twomey sought an urgent debate on junior doctors and I have no difficulty in having a debate on the issues outlined by him. Senator Ann Ormonde sought a debate on binge drinking and mentioned a proposal for a national alcohol policy. She commented on the challenges facing society, particularly those people under 18. As I have said before I have no difficulty with it taking place, although it will not happen until after the Christmas recess.

Senator Hanafin sought a debate on the economy and colleagues will have a chance to discuss such issues in the House this afternoon when there will be pre-budget outlook statements. I welcome all colleagues who have been so interested and have made such a contribution here on the economy over the years to participate in the debate this afternoon. Senator Hanafin has already indicated he will make his contribution on the issue today. With just eight days to go before the budget, this is an ideal opportunity to have the Minister present so Senators can make their views known before the final touches are added to the budget.

Senator O'Donovan called for a debate on the fishing industry. I agreed to that previously as a matter of urgency, but it was postponed due to the untimely death of Senator Peter Callanan as the debate was to take place during the week of his funeral. I will ensure we have that debate early in the next session. Senator McFadden expressed strong views on the emergency services and the good work done by many organisations, particularly in the Athlone area. I will pass her views on to the Minister. I agree with most of what she said.

Senator O'Sullivan welcomed the allocation and signing of the contract for speed cameras. I am pleased it was a local Kerry company that received the contract. I know this programme will save many thousands of lives and many people from injury. I thank the Senator for his kind words on my support for the speed camera programme when I was Chairman of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business when we were working on insurance reform.

Senator Regan seeks support from the European Council with regard to funding for the flooding problem. I have covered that issue already and agree with seeking support. Senator Keaveney brought to our attention the huge difference in costs between rail charges in Belfast and Dublin. I will pass her views on to the Minister for Transport. I am sure he will be as shocked and surprised as I am by the significant difference brought to our attention by the Senator for services from Belfast to Dublin and Dublin to Belfast.

Senator Donohoe spoke about the appointment by the Garda Commissioner of the assistant Garda commissioner to investigate the allegations made in the Murphy report. I agree with the Senator and welcome the Garda Commissioner's decision.

Senator Burke called for a debate on public private partnership. I suggest the Senator should bring this issue to the attention of the Minister today during the budget debate. It would be timely.

Senator John Paul Phelan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on flooding be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 27.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Toole, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Prendergast, Phil.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Francis.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Liam Twomey; Níl, Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 31; Níl, 18.

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Francis.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • O’Toole, Joe.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Prendergast, Phil.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • White, Alex.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Maurice Cummins and Liam Twomey.
Question declared carried.
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