Commencement Matters

Heritage Sites

Senator Thomas Byrne

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Tom Hayes. It would appear that the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is busy. I ask that the Minister responsible for Brú na Bóinne, whom I understand to be Deputy Heather Humphreys, would meet a delegation of residents from the area. We are talking here about a very important part of our country and an important site of world heritage, including the Newgrange, Dowth and Knowth areas, which encompasses half of the parish of Slane and almost the entire parish of Donore in County Meath. A major public meeting was organised last week by the Department which I attended with my party colleague, Councillor Wayne Harding. It is fair to say that there was bitter anger among the residents at the way they are being treated. They feel that their entitlement to live in a community and for that community to carry on is being threatened, not just by the actions of the Department but also by the actions of the local authority. Indeed, my colleague, Councillor Harding, will be raising this matter with the local authority again, having done so previously.

Everybody in the Brú na Bóinne area and in County Meath generally is exceptionally proud of the heritage that has been left to us by our forefathers. We have some of the most important works of megalithic art and the most important megalithic tombs in the world. Albeit from a different era entirely, it is the equivalent of the Louvre in terms of the importance of the art there. The art is of the same standard and of equal importance as that in the Louvre, and the community values that enormously. In fact, many members of the community in Brú na Bóinne have worked on the excavations at Newgrange and Knowth or in the interpretative centre, while some continue to work on the bus service that runs between the interpretative centre and the monuments.

Enormous restrictions have been put in place through the actions of the Department and the local authority, particularly with regard to planning for one-off houses. Nobody is looking to develop this area or is calling for mass building or anything like that. All people are looking for is for the life of the community in that area to continue. People want their children to be able to live in the area in which they grew up. We want to preserve this very important heritage but we also want to make sure that the community is preserved there too. It was the forefathers of some of those living in the community who built these monuments and that is a fact. Many of the families to whom I refer have been living in this community since time immemorial.

I would suggest that the Minister should listen to the concerns of the local people. I would hate to think that last week's meeting was a box-ticking exercise for the Department. I hope departmental officials do not feel that the public consultation process is out of the way now and that they can roll ahead with their plans, along with the local authority. I would like last week's meeting to serve as a starting point for meeting some of the requirements of the residents. It should be possible to arrive at a happy medium whereby we preserve the important heritage of Brú na Bóinne while also allowing the indigenous community to thrive. Nobody is looking for outsiders to be allowed to build houses there, nor does anybody want to build housing estates. Nobody wants to build a house that would do any damage to any monument or view in that area. They simply want people to be allowed to live within their own community. That is a very simple request by people who value and treasure the history and heritage of the area more than anybody.

Other concerns raised at the meeting last week related to signage, which has been a disaster for years. There are still no concrete plans by the Department to mark this very important world heritage site with welcome signs and with signage pointing visitors in the direction of the monuments and the interpretative centre. Much of the signage there at present is completely wrong and has been for a long time.

The other concerns expressed related to the fact that the tourism potential of the area has never been fully developed. The community, the local authority and the Department, which has a very important role as the State body dealing with UNESCO on the world heritage site status, could work together and come up with a plan that occupies the middle ground. It should be noted that many members of the community have done a huge amount of groundwork and have an enormous amount to offer. They can make suggestions that would not be contrary to world heritage status but which would complement it and also complement the life of the community.

Will the Minister of State ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to meet a delegation from the community and listen to their concerns in order that last week's meeting does not represent a box-ticking exercise in terms of public consultation?

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Tom Hayes)

I thank the Senator for raising this important matter and apologise on behalf of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, who is unavailable due to other commitments outside the House today. However, the Minister is very much aware of the concerns of the Senator.

The UNESCO world heritage committee requires every property inscribed on the world heritage site list to have a management plan or other documented management system in place that explains how its outstanding universal value will be preserved.

Outstanding universal value is a fundamental requirement for retaining world heritage status. The Operational Guidelines for the Implementation of the World Heritage Convention, issued by UNESCO in July 2013, set out the issues that need to be addressed as part of the management plan for a world heritage site. UNESCO also provides guidelines on what content must go into the plan before it can be submitted to the organisation for approval.

A new draft Brú na Bóinne Management Plan, to replace the previous plan that dates back to 2002, has been prepared in accordance with the UNESCO guidelines. The draft needs to be finalised and submitted to UNESCO as soon as possible. In accordance with UNESCO requirements, the main responsibility for implementation of the plan is shared between the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Office of Public Works.

The development of the present draft management plan has taken place over the past four years, during which there have been two periods of public consultation, one of which is still ongoing. Observations were initially invited from the public in April 2011. Fifty-seven submissions were received by the Department, all of which were considered in the course of the drafting that has taken place since. A special public meeting was also held on site in June 2011 to improve community awareness of the plan.

The Brú na Bóinne world heritage site management plan steering committee was established by the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht in 2011 to help oversee the preparation of the management plan. The steering committee, which the Department chairs, is made up of local interest groups, officials from the Department and the OPW, along with representatives from Louth and Meath county councils, Fáilte Ireland, the Heritage Council, the International Council on Monuments and Sites Ireland and An Taisce. Representatives from the Boyne Valley consultative committee and two local elected councillors also sit on the steering committee.

The draft plan sets out the key objectives and future vision for the management of the world heritage site. It provides a framework for the proactive management of the site, helping to ensure that its outstanding universal value is sustained and preserved for future generations. It informs and guides the day-to-day and long-term management of Brú na Bóinne.

Agreement has been secured, at steering committee level, for the vast bulk of the actions set out in the current draft plan. One new major initiative is the creation of an enhanced management structure for the Brú na Bóinne site that includes a special community forum and other community involvement and oversight in the decision-making process. The community forum will meet at least twice a year to oversee the implementation of the management plan and its proposed actions. The forum will meet at the start of the year to consider and discuss the actions that can be implemented in the coming months, and again at the end of the year, when the Department and the OPW will report on progress made on agreed actions.

The Minister can understand that there are issues that continue to be of concern to some sections of the local community. These include planning, with some community representatives looking for a separate planning system to be put in place for the world heritage site. The draft plan, through consultation, seeks to accommodate all reasonable proposals. Obviously not all aspirations are resolvable through the plan itself. That said, two new actions directly related to planning are included in the draft plan. These mean that there will be special recognition of the world heritage site in the administration of the planning systems in Counties Meath and Louth, with clear, precise and time-bound actions in place in regard to pre-planning consultations with prospective planning applicants. There will also be specific guidance for potential planning applicants on the site and the design of proposed new developments.

The present position of the draft plan is that the Department and the OPW have invited the public to make written submissions which can be lodged any time up to and including 20 March 2015. This is an important process which allows all members of the community to express their views, offer opinions and have their say about what is in the plan. Apart from updating the general strategy for conserving and managing the world heritage site, the public can also comment on how it should address matters such as visitor management and public awareness, research, education, nature conservation, liaison with the local community and sustainable tourism.

All submissions received will be carefully reviewed and considered by the Department. The Minister can assure the Senator that everything that can reasonably be taken on board will be built into the final draft. That element is important to note in terms of the points made by the Senator.

As mentioned previously, the steering group is made up of a number of interested parties and, most importantly, includes local representatives. I urge the Senator, as a public representative, to use this structure, which we do not use often enough. Public representatives or Oireachtas Members should consult the local public representatives that are part of the group. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, encourages all concerned to avail of this opportunity for public input and to take part in the public consultation process. I will relate the Senator's points to the Minister. The consultation process that is in place should be availed of first.

Senator Thomas Byrne

We are afraid that the public consultation process is merely a box-ticking exercise. The evidence for such a belief is that the project was started back in 2011 and, as the Department's officials admitted at a meeting last week, very little has happened since. The Department was restructured and there was a move from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, etc. The sections do not seem to have moved offices too much.

As I have said already, there was bitter anger at the meeting due to the way this project has panned out. The local councillors and residents on the consultative committee are not happy. In fact, some of them are very angry. As I suggested in my request, which was left unanswered, it would go a long way if the Minister were to meet the people, or even a delegation of those who are or have been members of the consultative committee, and the local councillors. It would mean a lot if she could meet them and listen directly to their concerns. Such a meeting would also be an opportunity for her to hear their sincere appreciation for the world heritage site, which is an acknowledgement of the location's beauty, history and art. Let there be no mistake about that. If she met them as part of the consultative process it would go a long way. No reasonable Minister could fail to be moved by the stories of sons and daughters, nieces and nephews having to move out of a community. The Minister of State would not put up with such a situation in his county of Tipperary or in any rural area. It is unfair that this parish and a half must put up with such a situation.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I have listened to what the Senator has said, and I understand his concerns and that of the people. It seems to me, having listened to him, that the local residents are deeply concerned about the project. The best process for him to follow is to make sure and encourage residents to put their issues on paper and consult with the local public representatives who are on the committee. I have a deep understanding of the situation from what he has said. I will convey his concerns to the Minister and can assure him that she will take all of his concerns on board.

At the end of the process there may be a reason for a meeting. There is a process in place that should not be interfered with and I encourage the local community to participate. All public representatives can understand that people in a community want to meet a Minister and air their views, but there is a process in place whereby every viewpoint can be listened to and taken on board.

I assure people, notwithstanding their fears, that the Minister will look at and read all of their local concerns. When that process has been finalised there may be room for a meeting. I urge people not to miss the opportunity that presents itself now to make their concerns known. I assure the Senator that I will relate his points and concerns about the project. I live in an area that has the Rock of Cashel, and everyone would love if it were designated a world heritage site. Brú na Bóinne has been designated a world heritage site, which is unique, and the people of the region should be very proud.

Senator Thomas Byrne

I have said so a number of times. We are extremely proud of the site and we love it.

Deputy Tom Hayes

It is in everybody's interest that we work together. I reiterate that I will relate all of the Senator's concerns that he raised this morning.

Local Government Reform

Senator Paul Bradford

I welcome the Minister of State, who is from Tipperary. It is the Minister from Tipperary who will make the final decision on the future of local government and the future of town councils.

Some people say Irish Water will be the legacy of EU Commissioner Hogan but the legacy with which he will be most associated, and it will be negative unless there are changes, are the new structures of local government. There were elections to new local government structures in 2013 but those structures are a butchered, slimmed-down version of local democracy. The public spin was that we were going to manage local politics with fewer councillors so town councils were abolished and replaced by municipal districts. All of us have served on local authorities and all of us know the importance of localism to local government but we now have local authority areas which, in some cases, are 50, 60 or 70 miles long and that is not local government. The savings from abolishing town councillors, who were on modest stipends, were cancelled out by creating additional county councillors and it is already apparent in many of our huge municipal districts that the current structures are not working.

I am the first to recognise that town councils in some areas were not working well. There were five town councils in my former constituency of Cork East. Some worked very well but some less so and such a ratio would be replicated across the country. On the whole, though, in the past 100 years town councils were the first recourse of politics and representation for tens of thousands of our citizens. The person who walked up and down the main street of Cashel or Mallow always felt comfortable walking into the town hall to meet town council officials. Sometimes they met town councillors, whom they often met on a daily basis anyway because they generally worked around the town. There was great interaction between local politics and the local community.

I was very pleased to hear at the weekend from certain members of the Labour Party that consideration was being given to putting town councils back in place. We will have to plan it in a very strategic fashion. I have said to Senators down the years that if they went into the Oireachtas Library they would find the 1991 Barrington report on local government, which was accepted and agreed by virtually every political party at that time. It proposed the replacement of town councils across the country by district councils with general populations of between 25,000 and 30,000, small geographical areas where the councillor would be local to his or her constituents. That is one option, but new supercouncils, such as Cork County Council with 55 members, Dublin City Council with over 60 members and west Cork, which is 70 or 80 miles long and larger than most Dáil constituencies, are not local government.

There were difficulties with town councils, though some were excellent. Some of the larger towns in the country did not have town councils while some small towns had functioning town councils but we need to look afresh at the structure. It is nearly four years until the next local elections and we need to flag our intentions for local government at an early stage. At a time when we are lecturing Europe on the need to practise devolution of powers down to smaller countries and communities, in this country we have taken power away from small towns and communities and from local citizens.

I appreciate the fact that the Minister of State will not make the political call on this matter but he was aware of the great work done in Cashel, Tipperary, Carrick-on-Suir and other town councils in his constituency. I hope some serious consideration is being given to the question by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, and the Government and that it was not just a conference slogan. Nobody can blame the previous Minister for making the decision he made and if people in politics are wrong it is not a sin. Such decisions can be reversed. I hope we will look at local government in a meaningful fashion to restructure it to give the citizens of this country what they need and deserve.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I thank Senator Bradford for raising this issue and I acknowledge his contribution to local government and local government reform generally. I apologise on behalf of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, who is otherwise engaged this morning.

It is over two years since the Government published the action programme for effective local government, which set out decisions for a range of measures to reform and strengthen local government structures, functions, funding, governance and operational arrangements. During that period, the focus has been directed at implementation of the extensive reform programme and progress has been swift.

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, would like to make it clear that he will ensure that the fabric of local government and local democracy are fully intact and effective. He does not consider, however, that the re-introduction of the pre-reform configuration of town councils would be the correct approach. As the comments attributed recently to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, on this matter acknowledged, reform was needed in this area. In some ways the system that operated up to last June was a distortion of democracy. For example, 46% of all councillors represented only 14% of the population. Residents inside the old town boundaries had double votes at local elections, while the often large population resident in towns but outside outdated boundaries were not served by the town council at all. Indeed, many large centres of population had no sub-county municipality.

Town councils did achieve worthwhile results but their capacity was very limited. All the 80 town councils combined accounted for only 7% of local government activity and a significant number of them had no revenue-raising powers and no decision-making capacity in key areas such as housing, planning and roads. It was not feasible to extend the powers, resources and jurisdiction of the town councils without seriously undermining the county councils. Instead, a new integrated system of governance was introduced. Municipal districts now cover the entire territory of each county, reflecting European norms, removing outdated boundaries and ending the anomaly of small towns having municipal status and dual representation, while some larger centres and rural areas lacked any sub-county governance. As well as creating a more rational and comprehensive structural arrangement, the new system will result in more effective and community-focused decision making and implementation. Moreover, under the new arrangements, there is full integration of local authority resources across each county and elimination of duplication both in administrative and electoral terms. The status of the town is explicitly recognised in these new structures. The mayor is appointed by the relevant district, and the title of "Mayor" can only be used in this context.

An important benefit of the new system is a more appropriate assignment of local authority functions. The performance of different functions by members at county and district levels over time will result in greater effectiveness than the previous parallel town and county system, which involved a significant element of duplication. The division of functions between county and district levels has been determined on the basis of what is most relevant to each level. Local matters are to be dealt with at municipal district level, while those of wider strategic application are being decided at county level, without duplication between county and district jurisdictions.

It is important to bear in mind that we are in the very early stages of a reform process. The provisions of the 2014 Act only came into effect on 1 June 2014 and 2015 will be the first full year of the operation of structural and other significant changes in the local government system. However, it is essential to ensure that the new system is being operated effectively and as intended. The Minister has already emphasised to chief executives the importance of fully supporting the role of the elected members at municipal district level.

Equally, the members must take full ownership of their powers and responsibilities in this area as well as for the other new governance powers such as the statutory audit committees, annual service delivery plans, management reports, approval of new local authority corporate plans and adoption of schedules of municipal district works by municipal district members. The structured training programme for councillors, which the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is supporting, will help to ensure elected members are well-equipped to perform their governance functions effectively.

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, intends to have a review carried out on the operation of the new structures. In this context, the Department is reconvening a working group for engagement with the Association of Irish Local Government and a broadly based advisory group, both having played an important role in the local government reform process. The groups will give particular consideration to how the new governance arrangements are impacting on the towns and whether any adjustments are needed in light of experience to date, including civic aspects, such as the status of mayors of borough and municipal districts. Moreover, these groups will have an important input into strengthening the role of the local government sector in economic development and the particular role to be played by urban centres. The importance of the role to revitalise the economy of towns and their rural hinterlands has been emphasised in guidelines issued to local authorities by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Minister, Deputy Kelly, expects action in this regard to feature prominently in the local economic and community plans that authorities are developing. The experience of urban centres will be evaluated to ensure urban issues are being addressed effectively through the new structures.

The thrust of Government policy is to strengthen local government and foster the potential for improved subsidiarity, coherence and efficiency, resulting in greater value for money for the taxpayer and, ultimately, improving the services delivered for our citizens. The review that the Minister is initiating will provide a sound evidence base upon which to consider any further changes to local government and local democracy, structural or otherwise.

Senator Paul Bradford

There is no point in my shooting the messenger. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, is speaking on behalf of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. The script represents the biggest U-turn I have heard in a long time. Clear indications were given in print and oral interviews at the weekend that consideration was being given to having town councils restored.

I am keen to raise one point with the Minister of State, although I imagine he is very much aware of it given that he comes from a large geographical county. I wish to emphasise the importance of local government being local. The Minister of State remarked in his reply - the script was provided by the office of the Minister, Deputy Kelly - that there was an affinity among the people within municipal districts. The Minister of State should consider County Cork. He need not tell me that he could possibly believe people outside Charleville, on the Limerick border, have any sort of political or geographical affinity with the people of the parishes of Conna and Ballynoe, near Tallow, County Waterford, yet, they are part of a single municipal district. Certainly, I do not believe the people of Millstreet and the surrounding area have any political affinity to the Mallow municipal district in the centre. What about the areas in west Cork that are 60, 70 or 80 miles away? A former councillor, Dermot Sheehan, known to all of us through his father, remarked to me after the local elections that it would have been as easy for him to represent the congressional district of New York as the huge sprawling area where he had to contest the election. We have got it fundamentally wrong.

I find it ironic and I am sorry the Minister, Deputy Kelly, is not in the House. The politics of stitching up these municipal authorities last year into eight, nine and ten-seaters was to save the party that lost all the seats. That is the ultimate irony. Leaving aside politics, the people need good strong local democracy. The town councils were not perfect but they had and have a role to play. I hope that long before the next local elections there will be a serious dialogue again about the need to restore genuine real local government whereby local actually means local.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Senator Bradford instanced the people outside Charleville vis-à-vis the people near County Waterford, and I can understand that. That is a matter of the drawing of a boundary map. It is not an argument, however, to bring back local town councils.

I served on a local authority in Tipperary. The duplication between county and town councils was unbelievable, as was the waste of time and energy. Officials at county level would address one meeting in the morning and then go on to address the town council that same night. The amount of time taken up by officials was unbelievable and totally at variance with the delivery of services. This is about the delivery of service to the people. The purpose of local authorities is to deliver a better service.

Senator Bradford can signal what he likes but I have a real belief that what is happening in the new structures represents a major improvement on what was in place. For example, let us consider the towns of Cahir and Cashel, which are beside one another. Cahir was better served by South Tipperary County Council than Cashel. That is the truth. I have lived in Cashel and I have an office there and I know all about the duplication of services. There was a serious waste of money and resources.

I accept the point Senator Bradford makes about people living outside Charleville not knowing people near Waterford, and that it is difficult for one person to represent all of them. That is true and I take his point in that regard. However, going back to the old structures of town councils would be a backward step. I am not simply sticking to the script when I say that I would be totally opposed to going back there. I really believe it.

At the weekend, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, expressed his view, but that was a personal opinion. The Government opinion is to move forward with and protect what we have and then improve it. Senator Bradford is right in his views on the municipal areas and perhaps there could be an argument to cut in half the municipal areas, but the duplication of services and what we had in the past represented a great waste and we should not go back to it.

Senator Paul Bradford

I fully agree.

Deputy Tom Hayes

We should not even contemplate it. It cost ratepayers vast sums of money. They are taxpayers, the paying public. Businesses were closing left, right and centre because of the costly rates they were paying. We need to move away from that. There is a view within Government of the need to try to bring down the cost of rates to encourage people. This is a way of doing that and of making local government more effective for the people.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at noon.

Seanad Éireann debate - Thursday, 5 Mar 2015