Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 2022

Vol. 289 No. 8

Nithe i dtosach suíonna (Atógáil) - Commencement Matters (Resumed)

Control of Dogs

Senator Lynn Boylan

I welcome the Minister of State but I am disappointed that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is not here to take this Commencement matter, particularly given that her constituency contains many dog breeding establishments. I look forward to hearing the official response because for too long, Ireland has had the unfortunate title of being the puppy farm capital of Europe.

Government after Government has failed to get to grips with the situation and the dog-breeding establishment, DBE, guidelines are just that - guidelines. Even if they were followed to the letter, which they are not, it would be perfectly reasonable in the eyes of this Government that a DBE keep hundreds of breeding bitches and have one staff member looking after 25 breeding bitches and all of their pups.

The use of automation, the industrial nature of puppy farms and the lack of human interaction are resulting in poorly-socialised dogs with a range of behavioural issues. The fallout from this is becoming very clear in recent months as pounds are dealing with the Covid-regret puppies. During the lockdowns, many people rushed into buying a puppy for the family without fully understanding the commitment that a dog is. Puppy farms subsequently ramped up supply and churned out puppies to meet the insatiable demand. They gave no thought to the misery they were inflicting on the breeding mothers or the welfare of the resulting pups.

Unfortunately, the chickens are now coming home to roost. Some people are returning to work unable to look after the poor dogs, and others are dealing with young dogs that are manifesting a wide range of behavioural issues, many of which are due to the fact that they were born on these puppy farms. PetBond vet, Dr. Tim Kirby, has rightly called such farms a chain of misery and said that mothers are stressed, overbred and pass on their fear and anxiety to their young.

Dogs Trust has seen a considerable increase in the number of dogs being surrendered and an overwhelming list from local authority pounds seeking shelter space with it. In addition to the Covid-regret pups, those dealing in the sale of dogs are now faced with pups they cannot sell and an oversupply of breeding bitches. Dogs Trust has had 54 pups in the past three weeks alone, 15 of which were crossbreeds taken in from the local pound with no mother to be found.

To compound matters, the housing and cost-of-living crisis is impacting on the number of dogs being surrendered and abandoned. Families with notices to quit or whose landlords will not allow pets are now having to surrender their much-loved pets, which is devastating and denies children the joy and life skills that pet ownership brings, which includes empathy.

When I visited the new Dublin county pound, I was told that up to 30% of surrenders are now down to housing issues and an increasing number of dogs are being abandoned or surrendered because they are old and have health issues. Poor Lenny, a Shih Tzu, was left in a crate under a bridge recently. Sam, an old cairn terrier, was found wandering along a busy road blind and covered in mange. Maggie, the lurcher from Carlow-Kilkenny pound, was dehydrated and had acid burns, an untreated broken toe and a large growth on her hind leg. There is no excuse for any of this and those responsible should be held accountable. However, all of the shelters and pounds are saying the exact same thing: the phone will not stop ringing. There is a tsunami of unwanted dogs.

What work is happening in the Department of Rural and Community Development to ensure that the local authority dog pounds are equipped for this situation? What does the Minister plan to do in the long term to end the scourge of puppy farms and industrial dog breeding? Cavan-Monaghan is home to some of the largest DBEs but the Minister of State's constituency of Wexford also has a large number of them.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

On behalf of the Minister for Rural and Community Development, I thank Senator Boylan for affording me the opportunity to speak on this very important matter. I understand there has been some concern about this issue.

The Department of Rural and Community Development has policy responsibility for dog control and dog-breeding establishments, while the local authorities are responsible for all operational activities. These responsibilities include the dog-licensing and dog-warden service and the management and operation of the local authority pounds or shelters. The Department of Rural and Community Development has no involvement in these operational activities.

With regard to the provision of pounds and shelters, section 15(2) of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 empowers local authorities to enter into arrangements with any person for the provision and maintenance of dog pounds or shelters. The Act also provides for such persons or organisations to carry out the functions of the local authority under the Act with regard to the acceptance, detention, disposal and destruction of stray or unwanted dogs.

Section 15(3) of the 1986 Act empowers local authorities to enter into arrangements with any other local authority, the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, ISPCA, or a person connected with animal welfare, for the exercise of all or any of its functions, other than its functions under sections 17 or 30 of the Act. The procurement of any service related to local authority pounds is therefore a matter for each local authority and the management and operation of such pounds or shelters are matters solely for the relevant local authority. Similarly, the enforcement of welfare standards for all animals, including the welfare of dogs in pounds or shelters, is a matter for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 and one in which the Minister's Department has no direct role.

The Department of Rural and Community Development publishes annual statistics on local authority dog-related activities including statistics on local authority pounds and stray and unwanted dogs and makes them available at gov.ie. The 2021 dog-control statistics, made up of returns from all local authorities, indicate that there are 34 local authority dog shelters or pounds. I am pleased to note that the number of stray, seized and unwanted dogs entering local authority pounds is decreasing year on year. The figures are down from more than 26,000 in 2002 to 4,270 in 2021. This figure was 5,310 in 2020; 9,162 in 2019; 9,961 in 2018; and 11,774 in 2017.

Similarly, the total number of dogs euthanised in local authority pounds has reduced dramatically in recent years. In 2021, 168 dogs were euthanised in local authority pounds which was down from 172 in 2020 and 1,674 in 2016. This continues the year-on-year annual trend in the decline in the number of dogs euthanised which is down from just over 215,000 in 2002.

These figures show the tremendous work being done by the local authority dog warden and pound service in the re-homing of dogs and their active engagement with dog welfare groups and charities. Some 1,077 dogs were re-homed directly by local authority pounds and 1,934 were transferred to dog welfare groups for re-homing in 2021. In 2020, 1,341 dogs were re-homed directly and 2,545 were transferred to dog welfare groups.

These statistics also demonstrate the success of the neutering and microchipping programmes operated by animal welfare charities. These programmes operated by some animal welfare charities, with some limited support from the Minister's Department, have successfully reduced the number of unwanted litters of puppies. Ongoing microchipping has also facilitated the reunification of 1,064 dogs with their owners in 2021 and of 1,286 in 2020 and 1,924 in 2019.

Senator Lynn Boylan

The Minister of State has just summed up the problem in his response in that it is scattered all over multiple Departments. The Department of Rural and Community Development has the responsibility for the Control of Dogs Act but, once the dog is seized or surrendered, it is the local authority's problem and we had the same issue when the Minister of State's Department officials came before the committee. They have taken their eye off the ball.

The reduction in the number of dogs euthanised is due to dogs going to animal welfare organisations. Dogs Trust alone has seen an increase of up to 2,100 dogs compared with 1,600 last year. One database has shown a 46% increase in dogs microchipped in the past 12 months and many of those presenting at the pounds are not even microchipped. We are back where we were ten years ago and face a tsunami of unwanted dogs. It just shows why the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine called for all of the animal welfare issues to be brought into one Department. They are scattered all over the place and nobody is focused on the tsunami of dogs that are coming down the line.

Deputy James Browne

I fully understand the Senator's concerns with regard to local authorities having sufficient capacity to deal with the number of stray and surrendered dogs and while the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and her Department are not aware of any capacity issues in local authority dog pounds or shelters, I ask the Senator to make any such information available to them.

Every January, after Christmas, we are all saddened to hear of and read media articles about numerous dogs being abandoned at local authority shelters and with animal welfare charities. I ask members of the public to do their research if they plan to buy a dog this Christmas. A dog is for life and owning one comes with many responsibilities. Dogs are lovable creatures which can bring great joy and provide many physical and mental health benefits to a family or household.

However, I ask that people consider their lifestyles. A dog needs to be licensed, microchipped and exercised on a daily basis. They need appropriate food, nutrition and veterinary care. This can be quite time-consuming and expensive. If, after considering all possible issues, member of the public wish to add a dog to their household, I ask that they consider their local authority dog shelter and-or local animal welfare shelter. These shelters have numerous dogs available for loving homes and families.

As we approach Christmas, the Minister and her Department will once again support any media campaigns regarding responsible dog ownership as they have done in previous years.

Departmental Reviews

Senator Lynn Ruane

Unfortunately, I am going to withdraw my Commencement matter. I have huge respect for the function of this House that is Commencement matters, which is why I do not table Commencement matters every week asking Ministers to come before the House. This Commencement matter does not, with all due respect, fall under the brief of the Minister of State, Deputy Browne. To have a Minister respond on behalf of another, to me, makes the engagement extremely dishonest and inauthentic. The Minister of State has no idea what I am going to say in my four minutes or in my two-minute supplementary contribution and will come in with a script that has been pre-written. The engagement is therefore not real and feels too much like theatre to me. I would much rather re-table my Commencement matter when the Minister can have the integrity to respect the functions of this House and the one opportunity we get, through Commencement matters, to engage with Departments that look after the briefs in respect of which we ask Ministers to come before the House. I therefore withdraw my Commencement matter.

School Meals Programme

Senator Seán Kyne

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank the Cathaoirleach's office for choosing this Commencement matter.

As the Minister of State will know, the school meals programme provides funding towards provision of food services for disadvantaged schoolchildren. The programme is approved and funded by the Department of Social Protection, and funding is based on a rate of payment per meal per child, per day.

I recently met with Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board, GRETB, which very much values this scheme and does tremendous work for schools across its region, in both city and county areas as well as in Connemara. GRETB is concerned about a number of issues.

First, there has been no review of Department of Social Protection maximum rates of payment in over a decade. The Department of Social Protection is aware of the extra costs currently facing suppliers. GRETB understands that an independent evaluation of the school meals programme has taken place and that its preliminary findings will inform future policy decisions. The Department, however, has provided no update. Suppliers are no longer applying for school meals tenders, and current suppliers are withdrawing from the scheme to mitigate their losses. This is a serious situation in that nobody is applying for tenders to provide the school meals for which the Department and the Government are paying. That is one of the main issues GRETB is experiencing in respect of school meals.

Merlin College was awarded DEIS status on 7 July of this year for school meals for 700 students. GRETB ran an accelerated school meals procurement procedure during August, which received no tender response. GRETB is at this time unable to recruit a supplier for Merlin College that is prepared to provide cold lunches at the price stipulated. Therefore, students do not have access to school catering services. Coláiste Cholmcille, Indreabhán, and Coláiste na bPiarsach, Ros Muc, both DEIS schools, have been advised by their tender-holder that he is no longer able to provide school meals at the current price and that his losses are accumulating. Elphin Community College, County Roscommon, which provides school breakfasts, has been advised by its tender-supplier that it is running at a loss and has been for the past year. GRETB is aware of other ETBs experiencing issues with the appointment of tenderers for the school meals programme.

As for the basic payment rates for breakfasts or snacks, the maximum rate of pay per child per day is 60 cent. That requires the provision of two items. An example is one serving of wholemeal or wholegrain cereal of bread plus one serving of fruit or one serving of milk, yoghurt or cheese. For a lunch the maximum rate of payment is €1.40 for one substantial item and one small item plus a drink. That also includes a wholemeal or wholegrain sandwich or roll containing one serving of meat, poultry, egg or cheese, one serving of salad and one serving of fruit plus a drink - for example, water, milk or unsweetened juice. For dinner the maximum rate of payment is €1.90 per child per day. That is for a hot meal and a drink. That includes one serving of meat, poultry, egg or beans plus one serving of potatoes, pasta or rice, plus two servings of vegetables and fruit plus a drink - again, milk, water or unsweetened juice. For a hot meal the rate is €2.90. That is per the nutritional standards document as well.

This is a very important and much-valued scheme but it is under huge pressure. I might use the word "crisis" at this stage because, as I said, when tenderers do not even apply to provide the scheme and when tenderers that are providing it are doing so at a loss in the hope that there will be a review and additional rates or that the situation will improve, that is a serious situation for the communities involved.

Deputy James Browne

I thank Senator Kyne for raising this very important matter of the rates paid to providers of school meals across the country under the school meals programme. The school meals programme provides funding towards the provision of food to some 1,700 schools and organisations, benefiting 260,000 children. The objective of the programme is to provide regular nutritious food to children who are unable, due to lack of good-quality food, to take full advantage of the education provided to them. The programme is an important component of policies to encourage school attendance and extra educational achievement.

A budget of €65.1 million has been provided for the scheme this year, with an additional €9 million provided to allow access to all newly designated DEIS schools from September 2022. Funding under the school meals programme can be provided for breakfast, snacks, cold lunches, dinner, hot school meals and after-school clubs and is based on a maximum rate per child per day, depending on the type of meal provided.

As part of budget 2019, funding was provided for a pilot scheme from September 2019 providing hot school meals in primary schools. The pilot involved 37 schools benefiting 6,744 students for the 2019-20 academic year and was aimed at primary schools with no on-site cooking facilities. An independent review of the hot school meals pilot which was completed in July 2020 found that all stakeholders indicated that the pilot project had a positive impact on children's diet, behaviour, attentiveness and psychological well-being.

In budget 2021 the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, announced that an additional €5.5 million would be provided to extend the provision of hot school meals to an additional 35,000 primary school children currently receiving the cold lunch option.

Budget 2022 provided for the hot school meals to be extended from January 2022 to the 81 DEIS schools that submitted an expression of interest but were not selected in the extension to 35,000 children as referred to. Every DEIS school that submitted an expression of interest to be included in the hot school meals extension announced in budget 2021 is now receiving funding for hot school meals.

In March 2022, the Minister for Education announced an extension of the DEIS programme to an additional 322 schools from September 2022. In July the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, announced that access to the hot school meal option would be extended to the 282 newly designated DEIS primary schools and that access to the cold lunch option would be extended to the 38 newly designated DEIS secondary schools from September, benefiting some 60,000 children at an additional cost of €9 million this year. Additional funding for the programme has been provided for 2023, bringing the total to €91.6 million.

The Minister is committed to continuing to expanding the school meals programme and building further on the significant extension of the programme in recent years. In this regard, she commissioned the evaluation of the school meals programme to review all elements of the programme, including the funding rates currently being provided for the various meal options. The final report is due to be completed by the end of the year.

I thank the Senator for raising the matter as it is important that such issues are raised.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for the reply on behalf of the Department. I welcome the fact that the Department is looking at the rates and that decisions will be made by the end of the year, but I am afraid that that will be too late. As I said, there are currently schools not receiving tenders to provide school meals. I am gravely concerned that there is no fast-tracking of the issue of rates of pay for the meals. It is a concern. As I said, I welcome the fact that there is a review due to be completed by the end of the year, but I am concerned that a solution will not be provided for children in DEIS schools between now and Christmas and that those schools will be left stranded.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an Roinn ag déanamh athbhreithnithe ar scéim na mbéilí scoile faoi láthair. Tá an scéim seo fíorthábhachtach do scoileanna DEIS ach ní raibh aon mhéadú ar na rátaí a íocann an Roinn Coimirce Sóisialaí do na béilí le deich mbliana anuas. Tá scoileanna anois faoi bhrú ó thaobh tairiscintí a fháil ó chomhlachtaí chun na béilí a chur ar fáil. Luaigh mé an t-ábhar seo leis an gCeannaire ar an Ord Gnó le déanaí. Cuirim fáilte roimh an ráiteas ón Aire Stáit ach teastaíonn brú ar an Roinn chun an t-athbhreithniú seo a chríochnú agus méadú a dhéanamh ar na rátaí.

We really need to expedite the completion of the review such that it is done by the end of the year or, if possible, by early next month, with a review of the rates to allow companies to provide realistic tenders for the provision of school meals.

Deputy James Browne

I again thank the Senator for raising this matter and for the constructive engagement. As I outlined, budget 2022 provided €68.1 million for a programme, with an additional €9 million provided to allow access to all new DEIS schools from September 2022. Additional funding for the programme has been provided for 2023, bringing the total to €91.6 million, which represents a 49% funding increase in the period since 2020.

The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has commissioned an evaluation of the school meals programme and all its elements, including the funding that is being provided for the various meal options. The evaluation has involved close consultation with all stakeholders. Workshops and interviews are being conducted with teachers, principals and children, as well as suppliers. Key issues to be explored as part of the evaluation include whether the schools meals programme is meeting its aims, the practicalities for schools in moving to a hot school meal option, what works well and does not, how the programme can be better delivered, the extent to which the school meals programme has improved school attendance and educational achievement, how the scheme compares with programmes in other countries, the implications of extending the scheme and the implications of the European child guarantee for schools meals programme. The final report is due to be completed by the end of the year and will help to inform future decisions around this important programme. The Minister is committed to growing the school meals programme further and issues regarding the funding of it will be considered in the context of this evaluation. I again thank the Senator for raising this matter and for a constructive engagement.

Disability Services

Acting Chairperson (Senator Erin McGreehan)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, to the House.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House for this very important Commencement matter. I thank him for being here, because it is in his Department. I would like to acknowledge the good work he is doing as Minister of State in the Department of Health.

I tabled this Commencement matter on foot of the retirement of Dr. Victor O’Loughlin from his post as a consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist for children with disabilities. There has been no replacement found for this role. We now have children in the south east of Ireland waiting indefinitely for psychiatric assessment because we do not have any psychiatrist. Under the Disability Act, a child is entitled to have an assessment of needs completed within six months, including a service statement that lists the services the HSE proposes to provide to meet a child’s needs. However, this is not happening.

I would like to mention two examples of families and parents who are at their wits' end because of the lack of services within the HSE. The first one is Mark Darmody, who is from my parish of Ardfinnan-Grange. He stated:

Our son Neil ... is severely autistic and was diagnosed with autism in 2016. He was reassessed in 2018, but his development has been almost non-existent. The severity of his presentation is now obvious as he is 100% non-verbal, has almost no comprehension, is not toilet-trained and is sporadically violent towards himself and others. We had been urging the HSE to intervene from early 2019 onwards as it was clear to us that Neil's diagnosis with a mild intellectual disability was not accurate for his presentation.

In February 2020, as a result of a referral ... Neil was examined by Dr. Victor O'Loughlin... on behalf of the HSE. He emphatically stated by letter ... that Neil was in the severe range of intellectual incapacity and that he required reassessment "as a priority" before [psychiatric services] could be considered. This urgent letter was sent to three HSE managers.

On the 29th June 2022, as a result of substantial pressure from us as parents, we received a letter of apology from ... [the] disability manager in Clonmel. She stated that the letter of Dr. O'Loughlin was never actioned [on] and she speculated that she could only conclude that Covid must have been the reason. What is certain is that our son was never considered for assessment ... during that time period.

This situation is now [exacerbated] by a telephone call I [received from] the HSE services manager in Clonmel... who informed me that Neil would now sit on a waiting list "indefinitely." Despite my requests for an approximate indication of when he [would] be seen, she continued with her "indefinitely" statement. She also informed me that there is no psychiatrist presently recruited by the HSE in the south east of Ireland.

His wife, Noelle, is now attempting to source private therapies that could cost up to €9,000 for the entirety of the type of service that Neil requires.

There is another lady in Clonmel and I do not have permission to use her name, so I will not. She is at her wits' end as well. Her boy needs to be assessed in order to be on the correct medication to ease his constant frustrations. He constantly stims, so he is always shouting, hitting and breaking things in sheer frustration. He even does it in his sleep. His parents are reducing their working hours to ensure that someone is always there. I will read out part of what she said to outline the frustration that she feels. She stated:

Our home is now and has been at complete crisis point for a long time which ye are [well] aware of since our last emergency professionals meeting a number of months ago. I would like to point out that our ability to cope is beyond that of the norm, however the current situation outweighs any degree of coping. Simply put “the demands are too high and the professional expertise is non-existent which is contributing to the bleakness of the present and future of our beautiful boy and family”. We have no support, we are at a point of total burnout and it has fallen on deaf ears. There are currently so many acute and enduring issues in our home that we do not know where to turn.

Those are families who are struggling immensely because of the lack of services in the south-east region. It needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Frankie Feighan)

I thank Senator Ahearn for raising this important matter today. On 9 September, the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, launched the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, intellectual disability model of service. This marked a significant achievement for mental health services in line with the Government’s ongoing commitment to improve all aspects of mental health services and ensure they remain person-centred and accessible to all. As the Senator knows, the CAMHS intellectual disability model of service was developed to enhance supports for children and adolescents with intellectual disability by advancing specialist mental health services nationally and standardising the care provided to children, adolescents and their families.

Prior to the development of this model of service, there was no nationally agreed framework that would enable existing and future CAMHS intellectual disability teams to deliver services in a consistent and co-ordinated manner across the country. This model addresses that vacuum by providing national guidance on how to deliver integrated person-centred services consistently nationwide. It will increase the confidence and ability of service providers, both the HSE and independent agencies, to deliver successful and safe mental health intellectual disability services to a high-quality standard. It proposes effective partnerships between healthcare providers, children and adolescents with lived experience, their families and local communities.

The CAMHS intellectual disability model of service was informed by the broader policy context in which it was developed and Sharing the Vision, Sláintecare and the findings of the Maskey report were also significantly considered throughout. The process of developing teams in Ireland in line with Sharing the Vision recommendations has begun, with the development of several teams across the country. The Sharing the Vision implementation plan 2022-24, which was launched earlier this year, will ensure we are closely monitoring the development of further child and adult teams. The launch of the model of service coincides with the reconfiguration of disability services into the children disability network teams, which adopt the health and social care approach to the provision of relevant disability supports to children. The model of service provides clear guidance to ensure these network teams work closely and collaboratively with CAMHS intellectual disability teams to the benefit of those accessing the services.

North Tipperary lies within Mid West Community Healthcare in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 3 and south Tipperary lies within South East Community Healthcare in CHO 5.

A full-time mental health intellectual disability child consultant has been recruited in the mid-west area. The consultant will work on a 0.8 whole-time equivalent basis. The HSE is looking at how best to deliver the child service to the full population of mid-west community healthcare. South-east community healthcare in CHO 5 recently interviewed for a CAMHS intellectual disability consultant for the region. A candidate has been offered the position and the HSE is working through the recruitment process for a start date to be finalised.

South-east community healthcare continues to liaise with national colleagues to secure funding for the multidisciplinary staff required to populate the adult and CAMHS intellectual disability teams. CHO 5 is endeavouring to populate this team at the earliest opportunity and it is a priority for the south-east community healthcare senior management team.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the Minister of State. I know he has been working on this because we have spoken privately about it. I am grateful that a candidate has been offered a position. The start date cannot be soon enough. A professional from the UK currently comes over once a month. In this regard, the HSE is not fit for purpose. Certainly from the perspective of parents of children with disabilities, it is just not accountable.

Staffing and recruitment are issues. The HSE should be using the work permits scheme more to find people outside of the jurisdiction to work in the sector. It does not seem to be using it as much as it should. Mark and Noelle Darmody have looked at prices to get a private assessment and it is approximately €9,000. Parents who go private should be able to claim back the cost. It is not their fault they have to go private. It is because of the lack of services we provide that they, for the good of the child, scrape to try to find money to make sure the child gets assessed as quickly as possible. On the back of the HSE's incompetence, the State should reimburse people who go privately. This should be done during the period we are waiting to get people into position so we can get the backlog fixed. That would certainly recognise the pressure parents are under at present.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I thank Senator Ahearn for raising this very important matter. He has been very consistent on the lack of services. The CAMHS intellectual disability model of service is being progressed in CHO 3 and CHO 5. It reflects the ongoing commitment of the Government and the HSE to ensure that mental health services for children and adolescents with intellectual disabilities are on a par with services available to those in the general population. This objective will be enhanced with record funding of €1.2 billion for mental health in budget 2023. The new HSE service plan for next year has now been finalised.

Senator Ahearn raised the question of reimbursing parents who spend up to €9,000 because of the lack of services. That is a fair comment. The service should have been in place. The services will be available eventually but parents are at the pin of their collars trying to provide very important services for their children. I will take this issue back to the Minister and see whether it can be addressed. Again, I thank Senator Ahearn for raising this very important matter.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.34 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 12.02 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.34 a.m. and resumed at 12.02 p.m.