I welcome the Minister to the House. Before he commences, I welcome the visitors from Coláiste Mhuire in Cabra to the Public Gallery. They are most welcome and I hope they enjoy the part of the debate they are here to witness.
Accommodation for International Protection Applicants: Statements
I also welcome the visitors from Coláiste Mhuire. I was glad they were here for a while because I would have been entirely on my own otherwise.
We are here this afternoon on the eve of the first anniversary of Russia's brutal war on Ukraine. More than 70,000 people have fled here and more than 7,000 civilians have been killed. This represents the biggest displacement of people on the Continent since the end of the Second World War.
Thousands of people, mostly women, have fled here to seek safety and ensure a future for themselves and their children. At the same time, there are wars and persecution taking place in other parts of the world, in Afghanistan, Iran, Ethiopia, Eritrea and across the globe. People flee their countries because of their political or religious beliefs, because of who they are and because their country is war-torn. They are fleeing here for their lives and to seek safety and shelter.
Since the beginning of 2022, marking both the ending of Covid restrictions and Russian's invasion of Ukraine, we have seen a significant increase relative to previous years in the number of people fleeing here. More than 70,000 people have come here fleeing the war in Ukraine along with 15,000 new international protection applicants. It is the largest response to immediate human need ever asked of the State. We have made use of hotels, barracks and offices, student accommodation and sports grounds. Every week, we are accommodating hundreds of additional people.
Alongside this response from the State, Irish society has also responded in an incredibly generous way. We have seen welcomes extended across the country to new arrivals. Communities have rallied around to support new arrivals in their cities, towns and villages. Thousands of people have opened their homes to those fleeing the war. Almost 7,000 people are now staying in pledged accommodation.
Through the efforts of local volunteers, community workers, public bodies and private sector contributions, many arrivals are being supported with basic needs such as clothing, access to the Internet, transport, English classes and information on how to access local services such as childcare, healthcare and education. This has been a monumental generational effort. In the midst of these difficult days, it is important that we do not forget the scale of Ireland's response.
Over the last six months in particular, we have also seen an insidious thread of racism, xenophobia and fear-mongering emerge. Misinformation and outright lies have been spread on social media and in communities across the country. The vilification of men, in particular, who come here seeking international protection, is deeply problematic. Some of these men have been tortured, while others have been exploited. They have come here to seek refuge and they have been denigrated as something other - something to be feared.
We are in the midst of the greatest humanitarian effort in the history of the State and it is up to us, as a country, to choose who we are and the manner in which we respond. We have to ask ourselves how we want history to remember the State and our people in this particular moment. I believe the majority of Irish people want to see us respond positively to the humanitarian crisis that has occurred across Europe. They do not want to see our country walk off the pitch when challenged. We should be firm in our defence of safety and compassion and also the international protection system.
International protection means fairly and humanely examining a claim for asylum, sheltering and supporting people while that claim is assessed, and giving people the right to stay here in safety where it is judged that that right is needed. We should not be ashamed of doing that or shy away from it. It means there will be occasions when people who have not been successful in their international protection application will be asked to return, or potentially be deported, to their home countries. We should not be quick to vilify these people either because our deep history of emigration means we have an instinctive understanding of the plight of those who have sought to make a better life for themselves elsewhere. Every person in this House, and this room, has a family member who has travelled abroad for the purpose of making a better life for himself or herself and his or her family. We have to recognise that. We have to recognise it is part of our history and recognise the commonality when it happens elsewhere.
It cannot be an accepted norm that someone's permission is required to provide basic shelter to any human being, whether he or she is from Ireland or abroad. I have always believed in the concept of respect for human rights and that an understanding of the plight of others is a key mark of being Irish. We should be proud of that and protect it when it is under attack.
Despite our successes in accommodating 75,000 people who have fled here, we face significant and immediate challenges. As arrivals continue, our ability to contract further serviced accommodation is reducing. In addition, we are facing the loss of some hotel beds across the system. However, I cannot accept a situation, whatever the context, where international protection applicants are going without accommodation. We and the State have to do more to make sure that is not happening. My Department can and will do more to develop further accommodation options, including the building and buying of properties. I will work with colleagues across the Government and Opposition and in the State agencies to do more to support this effort with further accommodation options. We have to expedite the refurbishment of properties. We need to do more to move people in the international protection system who have status on to other accommodation.
I thank Senators for participating in these statements. I look forward to hearing of their experiences. Many of those present have engaged with me directly on specific issues in their locality. As I did in the Dáil last week when I recognised Deputies, I recognise that many Senators have shown real leadership in their communities through engagement on this issue.
We have to reflect. This is the largest humanitarian effort in the history of the State and we are still in the midst of it. It has not always been perfect and mistakes have been made but, ultimately, we are offering shelter and safety to 75,000 people. That is something we should not lose sight of. The value of that,and what it says about us as a country and our individual communities should never be lost.
This country has done a lot to be proud of over the past year. We will be able to look back and say that when Ireland was challenged as a country, we played our part.
Before I proceed to Senator Keoghan, who is first to speak, I welcome Deputy Michael Moynihan and his good wife, Bríd, and some family members to the Public Gallery. They are more than welcome. I hope they enjoy the part of the debate they witness.
I thank the Minister for coming to the House.
This is a conversation I have been requesting for some time. I have worked very hard since March last year in my local community where I have been personally involved in the cases of perhaps 900 people who have come to east Meath. I know at first hand the difficulties the Minister is dealing with.
I am glad we are having this debate. Hopefully, it is a watershed moment and we will be able to have these discussions more regularly in future, giving them the time and attention they need until they are resolved or we are at least out of the crisis.
I take issue slightly with the heading of today's statements. It seems a tad limited. We cannot talk about accommodation of any one group in this country without appreciating the wider housing context. Of course, those applying for international protection are not the only ones looking for accommodation. I trust we will be allowed to touch on these points too.
On the issue of terminology, some of us can get tied up with definitions when it comes to migration issues. International protection applicants are, in common parlance, asylum seekers, while beneficiaries of temporary protection are persons who have presented at our borders in possession of Ukrainian documents and have been afforded protection under the EU's temporary protection directive adopted following the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia.
A further division is as follows. Some of those on the left wing seem to believe that once somebody applies for asylum they are entitled to it, that all persons applying for international protection do so genuinely and that any hesitation on the part of the State to grant them full access and benefits is xenophobic. This is nonsense. No country has a duty to accept all asylum seekers who present at its borders. We have a duty to examine applications, appraise them fairly and separate the genuine applicants from the others. The question we must ask is what constitutes a genuine applicant. When I use the word "genuine", I do not do so in the strict or official sense. The Department of Justice has a litany of tests which are used in the examination of applications and I will not go into those. I mean to ask what a genuine asylum seeker is in the mind of the public. We might think of someone fleeing war, famine or persecution, someone who has removed themselves or their family from immediate danger or someone who would die, be killed or suffer extreme hardship were they to return. This is generally what the public views as a genuine asylum seeker.
However, not all asylum seekers come to our shores fleeing such circumstances. Some come from merely poor countries, in the knowledge that they have a better chance of earning more money and enjoying a higher standard of living in Ireland than they do in their home countries. While these people are technically asylum seekers, they are better described as economic migrants. They have moved to this country to improve their economic prospects, nothing more and nothing less. Most sane people are of the opinion that our duty to these people is lower than the duty we have towards persons fleeing war and persecution. I am one of these people. While I admire the gumption and attitude of self-preservation of those who uproot and move country to better their lot in life, we simply do not owe economic migrants the same level of provision and protection as we do other cohorts of people in need of such.
I am sorry to interrupt the Senator but I am being called for a vote in the Dáil that I did not anticipate. Can we have a suspension?
No problem.
I am sorry. I know that is rude of me but I have been given my orders.
We will have to suspend for the Minister to vote.
No problem. The Acting Chair might give me a few extra minutes as a result.
Fine. You will not lose any time.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 1.02 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 1.14 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 1.02 p.m. and resumed at 1.14 p.m.
There are no wars or other human rights emergencies to justify the fact that more than one third of asylum seekers are from states such as Nigeria, Georgia, Algeria and South Africa. Why is this relevant? It is relevant because, in a shocking revelation, the State has limited resources. Each bed, apartment and house occupied by an economic migrant is one that cannot be given to a genuine asylum seeker or Ukrainian. When we are expecting the highest number of people seeking international protection in more than 20 years, this becomes a problem. In January, another 1,300 people turned up on our borders claiming international protection. The Government’s approach is unsustainable. Of course, most of the accommodation is not being occupied by the 19,000 living in IPAS properties but by the more than 70,000 beneficiaries of temporary protection.
These are crazy numbers. This is a small country with a small population but the public transport and civil infrastructure is unable to serve that population. There are not enough houses or apartments to serve the population. In what world did the Government think it would add the guts of 100,000 people into the mix in a year and a half and not cause a crisis? I said early on that, due to resources and logistics, we are limited in our ability to adequately care for the people we take in and, as we take more in, that ability is stretched to breaking.
In 2020, the Government stated it would end direct provision. It has since had the honesty to state that it would no longer be possible to achieve that within the allotted timeframe due to the requirement to handle the processing and accommodation of Ukrainians. I do not think it will happen for a long time. There is simply nowhere to put them if the direct provision centres are removed from the picture. This issue does not seem solvable in the lifetime of one or two Governments.
I recall when the Taoiseach implored the Dáil not to conflate housing and immigration issues lest that play into the hands of the far right. Unfortunately, the issues on the ground are not as neatly separated as the Departments that manage them. In reality, this is not a debate on international protection applicants; it is a debate on housing. The lack of housing in this country is the first mover that knocks over all the other dominos. Until change happens there, it will not be possible in other sectors or areas of national governance. We need to boost our large development plans and defend them against scuppering by opposition and complaints to An Bord Pleanála. We need to allow people to build on land they own. We need to offer grants for the conversion of existing houses into duplexes and for the building of additional family units in large gardens. We need to examine the local use only rule and allow young people to move out of the capital city and build and live in other counties, bringing their skills and money to local communities.
To return to the title of the debate, accommodation for international protection applicants is not rocket science. There are only two variables. If there is a problem, you either build more accommodation or ensure there are fewer international protection applicants via tougher screening, expedited and stricter processing for applicants from safer countries, automatic rejection for those who destroy identification in-flight and the enforcement of deportation orders. The Government has put itself in a very sticky situation but, although it can and will say much more, it cannot say it was not warned.
I thank the Senator and again apologise for the disturbance.
No problem.
The Minister is welcome to the House. It is an opportune debate and it is important that all present are of one voice - a welcome voice. None of us can imagine the hardship faced by people who have to leave their country and everyone and everything they have ever known. We must breathe all that in. They did not choose to come here; they had to flee here for assistance, accommodation and the right to exist. It is a mammoth task and a significant ask for the Government.
The number of people who have come here, at 75,000 people, is nearly equivalent to the population of Dundalk and Drogheda. It is not surprising that we are experiencing capacity difficulties. It is now about how we deal with those difficulties. The Minister has been working on this and trying to pull out all the stops, whether that be repurposing office blocks or upgrading any other sort of accommodation that can be upgraded and made fit for purpose to house people.
It is important, right and just that we look after people who are fleeing war and conflict. There are plenty of examples in our history of Irish people fleeing this country, such as the Flight of the Earls. In the Flight of the Wild Geese, 12,000 Irish Jacobite soldiers left this country and fled to safety in Europe.
In those days 12,000 people was a great many people. We have been doing this for 700 or 800 years. That was the 17th century. We have to think about that and that mentality. Other countries looked after us and gave us opportunities. Now we are doing the same.
My ask is to have the opportunity to speak to the Minister. He has inherited yet another difficulty in the international protection accommodation services, IPAS, system. Those difficulties in the system were there long before this Government was established, going back decades. It has been under-resourced, there have been delays in at and there have been difficulties, so it is not surprising that there are backlogs. We need to make sure that the new IPAS policy deals with applications in a way that is swift, fair and just and ensures that people who are entitled to be here are here. Economic migrants coming to the country should also be given an opportunity just as Irish economic migrants were given opportunities in other countries. They should be provided with a system that is welcoming, to get them into the labour market as quickly as possible. I was at a meeting earlier with IBEC at which it was mentioned that one in five of our workforce is non-Irish. That is incredible. We have the most diverse workforce in Europe. That is something to be proud of. We know how strong and buoyant our economy is. Why is it strong and buoyant? Why is it better? Is it because we have that diversity built into it?
My next ask is not just for the Minister’s Department. We all know that this is a cross-departmental matter. It is important that we have infrastructure in place. I ask that local authorities be given supports such as liaison officers who could go into each community as a point person. Local sports partnerships should be given supports that they currently are not getting. The link person is not there. There are many migrants in Dundalk and a great many sports clubs, but no link-ups. If we raise up and support one part of our community, the reality is that we are supporting everyone. If we bring 500 refugees into Dundalk, what benefits will Dundalk get from having those 500 refugees? What is the Government going to do? If it supports local clubs and local authorities and encourages employability and education and training boards, the communities will put their hands up. Dundalk has received so much. There is a net gain from welcoming people, supporting people and being a welcoming place. I genuinely believe we need a person to perform this function. Two weeks ago, the Minister’s party colleague announced a guide for inclusive community engagement in local planning and decision-making. It is a good framework and a really good start but I would love to see this in statute. It has to be done so that it is not just a question of guidelines. People need to be brought in. Every local authority should have a point person to go to. There are supports on the ground. It is the ground that makes the home.
I welcome the Minister and thank him for taking the statements today. I have thought long and hard about this debate. We need to broaden it out by addressing the various reasons that people come to Ireland. I would like to mention something that struck me before today’s debate. Last week, we had the announcement of where the Ministers and Ministers of State will travel to promote Ireland and Irish issues for St. Patrick’s Day. That is a valuable economic gain for us as a country, as well as an inward investment in every way. For as long as I can remember, the undocumented Irish in the US have been on the agenda at St. Patrick’s Day in Washington, including in the White House when the shamrock is presented. Over the years, family members who are living a good life and working hard in America have not been able to come home for funerals because they are undocumented. Decent people have been expelled from the US because they were undocumented. I am struck by that contrast. I have no doubt that the delegation going to Washington this year will make the same appeal again. It will be addressed on Capitol Hill or in the White House. It is entirely unreasonable that we would stand up and make statements in this House on this subject while at the same time lobbying other Governments for our own Irish people who are in the US but have not gone through proper channels in order to get there. We have to keep that perspective in mind.
At one point in my life I was an economic migrant. I had to go to England for work after I left school because there was no work in Ireland at the time. Being an economic migrant does not make a person into a substandard human. These are people who are trying to fend for themselves or for their families. Men may arrive in our country because they are at risk of being murdered in their own countries due to being members of the gay community, or for many other reasons that are not always apparent. I know we have a faster process when people come from countries that are supposedly safe. I am uncomfortable with that language because it sends a discriminatory message - albeit unintended - that there are safe countries. A person who comes from a country that is designated as safe can still be in fear for his or her life, and thereby require asylum in Ireland. I am proud of our history as a nation of reaching out to the world and supporting it, no matter what has happened around the world. That has been the case for the entirety of my lifetime, at least - for more years than I care to remember.
We have always been known for our generosity per capita when it comes to giving. Are we saying that it is okay to send money abroad, but if they come here, woe betide them because we are going to go out, protest and shout that they should be burnt out? It is only a very small cohort of our communities that do this. I think about things like that.
I have ties to the recruitment industry. I have been an adviser to the Employment and Recruitment Federation. Every industry is crying out for people and for skills. We have a shortage of workers. Since Covid-19, it has been noticeable that our hospitality industry is short of people to work. I would let people in and give them the ability to get work permits. While they are here, there must be a response for the undocumented here. We have done that. We have given an amnesty. However, we need to be careful. I believe we need a very strong information campaign. We had the Covid-19 advertising, and now we need a strong information campaign that dispels the misinformation that is put out in communities.
I would like to comment on the idea that we should somehow get a veto over men in particular. I spent a year and a half working in the criminal courts. I devilled with a master who specialised in prosecuting sexual offences. In all of that time not one of the perpetrators in those cases was a foreign national. We were in trial every day of the week for the entirety of my devilling experience. Cases are being heard in the criminal courts today, and I guarantee there are more Irish people than any others. There is an idea that because somebody is a foreign national, we should get a veto over them and want them to be Garda checked, but it does not seem to apply to your Irish next-door neighbour or your family member. This othering suits a narrative and is really quite appalling. We are in the middle of an appalling war in Ukraine that involves appalling suffering.
I will stand at the GPO on Friday as we remember it with the ambassador and think of everything. This time last year, I was fielding calls from parents in Kyiv who were trying to bring their babies and surrogate mothers home. It was most extraordinary but it is not unique to Ukraine. We should be supporting people around the world. We are people of great privilege. Yes, it is a challenge, but let us embrace it. However, we need an information campaign to dispel any myths.
The Minister is very welcome. I commend every word Senator Seery Kearney just said. The people of Ireland have an affinity with those who need protection and shelter. It is in an affinity born from our history of colonisation, oppression and dispossession. Just over 150 years ago, so many of our people escaped the starvation of An Gorta Mór by fleeing to the four corners of the world. Through our history, we understand what it means to be forced to flee in fear and heartbreak for our beloved homeland. We know the loneliness of exile and the humiliation of discrimination. "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" was the message that met my parents in the 1950s. They were economic migrants. I was born to parents of economic migrants. In the 1980s, I became an economic migrant along with hundreds of thousands of others. This is a legacy that has formed deep-rooted humanity and compassion and a genuine desire to help those who come to Ireland seeking refuge.
Just this weekend, tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Dublin to show solidarity with refugees and migrants. I was proud to be among them to celebrate the fabulous, rich variety and diversity that comprise Ireland today. However, the Government's response falls far short of that of the people. It even falls short of its own commitments. This failure to meet its commitments is matched only by its failure to engage with local communities. A mentality of division has been fostered by it. We see this in the pitting of the private sector against the public sector, rural people against urban people and, even last week, existing renters against new renters in respect of rent pressure zones.
Communities all over Ireland have for decades been denied access to the supports and public services they are entitled to. This has caused genuine suffering and pain. Some honesty is required here from the Government. Refugees are not responsible for the neglect of so many people, families, communities and social groups. They did not cause the crisis in housing, healthcare and public services. The reality is that they were entirely foreseeable and preventable. They were created by the policies of the Government and its predecessors.
The Taoiseach has spoken about managing immigration, but what we need is an efficient system that works, fulfils our humanitarian obligations and helps with the betterment of our society. This means asylum applications must be processed efficiently and decisions must be taken efficiently, and we must see an end to the limbo in which so many people find themselves.
It is now nearly two years since the Government published its White Paper on ending direct provision, yet we are still no closer to ending this inhumane and ineffective system. In fact, the number of direct provision centres more than doubled to 47 in 2022.
I accept that Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine and the large increase in protection applicants have created challenges. From the start, however, it was clear that capital investment and a serious commitment to the approved housing body options outlined in the White Paper would be the real difference-maker. Instead of receiving support from other Departments and agencies, the Minister has found his Department competing with Government agencies for turnkey projects. Addressing these issues should not fall to one Minister alone. This challenge must kickstart a long-overdue response from all in government to deliver appropriate accommodation and necessary services for everyone in Ireland.
The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, must significantly increase his housing targets, particularly those for the number of social and affordable homes delivered each year. He must also lift the red tape from councils and approved housing bodies to deliver more housing at an accelerated pace. This will also require additional capital investment from the Exchequer. The Government must also explore all other funding options, including the Housing Finance Agency and the European Investment Bank. In addition to accelerating the public housing projects already in the pipeline, the Government must identify dormant private developments with planning permission and, subject to strict financial controls, flip these into public housing. With at least 90,000 vacant homes across the State, the Government must do more to bring the stock back into active use.
To stem the rapid rise in homelessness, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage must allow local authorities to buy private rental properties where the sitting housing assistance payment or rental assistance payment tenants have a notice to quit and are at risk of homelessness. The Government must also tap into the 62,000 vacant holiday homes to ensure Ukrainian refugees have appropriate emergency accommodation on arrival. However, we must look beyond accommodation also. The Ministers for education, health, transport and other Ministers must also step up to establish wraparound services for all in the community. The Government must not continue to put vulnerable people in need of support services in towns and villages already struggling to provide services without making genuine and tangible efforts to provide those services. International Protection Accommodation Services and the Minister can conjure up accommodation from wherever, but without a whole-of-government response it will fail both applicants and the communities they join.
The people have made clear this weekend what Ireland they want. We need a government that reflects this – a government that does not foster division but that understands and gives effect to our desire to provide for all who share our island. We need a whole-of-government response. Now is the time to be ambitious and make the necessary changes. We need a plan that leaves no person or family behind. Such a plan is possible. All that is lacking is the political will.
I thank the Minister for coming to the House today as we mark Ash Wednesday. My mother – Lord have mercy on her – used to ask why people who wear the sign of the cross on their foreheads would do so if they were just going to be going around hypocritically. That stands with me today, for one reason or another.
Well said.
As everyone is aware, I am a member of the Traveller community. I know exactly what it is like to be hated within Irish society. On social media, we see the burning of Traveller houses. We have seen it in counties Donegal and Galway for many years. There is no legislation in place that will protect vulnerable groups. What we should do first is prioritise positive policies and legislation for migrants and refugees. Every single one of us in this and the other House has a family member or extended family member who has had to emigrate for financial reasons. I know of many members of the Traveller community who could not get work in Ireland and who had no choice but to emigrate to make their lives better.
I have been to rallies in Donegal and Dublin in the past few weeks. It defines who we are as a community. This is something that Travellers do an awful lot as well. We are good and we are constantly delivering that message. We are good people; we are not here to fight. A woman at the protest in Donegal said she pays her taxes and is a good-living person. I was struck by the fact that, because of all the propaganda on our streets at the moment, she had to define who she was.
Last November in this House, I called for a national campaign, led by the Government, on welcoming to our country refugees and other migrants who live and belong here. The Migrant Rights Centre of Ireland has done great work along with the former Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, on securing justice for the undocumented. I am a proud community-development worker and activist who worked on the campaign with the centre. As has been said, we want justice for our own migrants around the world, but what about those who are here?
We are talking about accommodation. Refugees and other migrants are living in horrible accommodation. I could use worse words. We have to understand that, when talking about housing the Irish and all that oul' jazz that is coming out of people's mouths just to spread oul' propaganda, hate and lies and to divide our communities, we are not giving refugees houses; we are putting them into hotels.
The White Paper was launched two years ago. I understand there is an unprecedented crisis with war in Europe and so on – obviously, I am not so foolish as not to get that – but the White Paper on ending direct provision is nowhere to be seen.
Last night I was at a talk on action against racism. Lucky Khambule is a refugee campaigner and is such a powerful person. He said that issues and the fear for refugees in Ireland have become worse. There is a two-tier system. I know this because I was approached many times in this House to not talk about the two-tier system. We do have a two-tier system where we have some refugees classed as European up here, and then black and brown refugees down there who are fleeing and seeking international protection. I know what it is like to be an other within society and to be treated less than white settled people. Why are we part of that? We need leadership.
Let us consider the Garda vetting nonsense we are seeing at the moment, with people saying "We have to vet these people and know who is coming into our communities". We do not have to know who is coming into our communities. We have seen that for many a year with the Traveller community when people have said, "We need to know what Travellers are coming in." I encourage people to get out and get to know other people. We talk of migrating for money, yet these are people who pay taxes in our country. These are people who bring many skills to our country. I am not being patronising to the Muslim community. The two doctors who delivered my two children are both Muslim. Again, these are people who give to us and who pay tax. They are here for genuine reasons. Some people must flee because of their government and the laws in their countries, yet we do not touch on that.
On the accommodation, our rundown schools are nearly falling down. This is a health and safety problem. We have these people living in our rundown schools and in direct provision centres, which were set up more than 20 years ago. We still have not ended direct provision. I would like to know where we are in that regard. I understand the crisis at the moment and that we have not seen the likes of it since the Second World War. During my 32 year life, I have not seen the likes of such xenophobia. There were even notices posted on social media last week to keep your girls inside the door and not to let them out. We do know, however, that this is not working. From what I saw last week, we want an Ireland for all, but we also need a government for all. I put it to the Minister that we need a government that is there to protect the people who are fleeing war, and that does not put one set of refugees over another set. We must treat people with dignity and respect.
I know exactly what it is like to live in rundown accommodation. I ask the Minister, with every bit of me and with all of my heart. I work with these people in our communities. These people have a lot to give to our society. Going back 15 years, you would never have heard of a Traveller person marrying a settled person. I am married to a settled person. We are all-----
The Senator is over time.
There are people in Tallaght who should not have to face discrimination and who were born and reared in this State but who are black. It is divide and conquer, but divide and conquer does not work for everybody. This is part of the Government's plan: that it is okay to divide, because once people are divided then the Government does not have to do its work.
I thank the Senator.
I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I commend him on the work he has done in the past year. It has been an incredibly difficult situation for our country, our people and our Government to try to get a handle on and deal with. I have heard questions over the past year asking why had we not planned better for this and why could we not have done more. It is not a situation we could have planned for. No country could have planned for this level of influx of refugees into our country. Our people deserve great credit for how they have dealt with this, and how they have opened their homes and their hearts to welcoming refugees from all countries into their communities.
A lot of the time there is a huge focus on the stuff we hear, or which is published in the media a little bit more, which is from small groups online pushing certain agendas. The vast majority of the stories over the past year are positive and happy of communities that want to get refugees in their communities integrated into schools, employment and accommodation. We have had stories of communities that want to hold on to those who have come to them and they do not want them moved out. Those are the positive stories. Ireland is a small country of just over five million people. For us to have accommodated 70,000 refugees in one year is phenomenal. Not only have we done this through government accommodation, people have given rooms in their own homes and offered up vacant accommodation they have. There is lots of good news to be had in this story, despite it being a challenging situation and despite the fact the war is ongoing and people are still fleeing Ukraine. This is not going to end today or tomorrow.
Every member state is dealing with the pressures the situation has brought on us. In challenging circumstances we have done well to do what we have done to date. That has not been without its challenges. I share the concerns of many other Senators, and of the Minister I am sure, that we want to be able to offer accommodation to everyone who comes into our State seeking protection. There have been times when this has not happened. It is understandable, however, because there is only so much we can do on any given day. We have done our very best to get people back into accommodation and back in when we can. I am aware that every effort is being made by the Minister and his Department.
There are two areas I want to home in on, and I would appreciate the Minister's comments. When he addressed the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party before Christmas, he spoke of the challenges he anticipated he would face come March or April when the tourism season would begin in most areas, and the lack of availability of bed nights. In my county of Mayo it is a concern not just for the hoteliers but also for the smaller businesses that reply on those hotels having people come to stay in their area. It is the small coffee shop, the restaurant, and the pub. It is all the smaller businesses that rely on the hotels being full of tourists for the tourism season. The Minister will be aware that in rural areas in particular, such as in counties Mayo, Donegal, Kerry outside some of the bigger multinationals tourism and hospitality are the biggest employers and where most people work. What are we going to do if hotels do renege on or pull back from contracts and we do not have alternative accommodation? What do we say to those smaller businesses? What is the plan for the next months? Is there a plan or what can we do to try to address the genuine concerns being raised by small businesses? It is not because they are anti-refugee and it is not because they are racist because they are not. They are genuinely concerned for their small businesses and want to know what the plan is for the next months and whether we are going to support them. Perhaps we can look at some financial measures that might be able to assist those smaller businesses, working with other colleagues in government because the Minister's Department has enough on its plate. Are there other measures, such as financial assistance, to acknowledge that financially this will be a difficult period for those smaller hospitality businesses that may not have the same footfall because the hotels are full in some areas? This means we must acknowledge it and deal with it now as opposed to waiting for that cliff edge in April or May, with those small businesses saying they are not getting the bookings in their restaurants and are not seeing the footfall in their coffee shops. We need to acknowledge that they are worried and try to put some financial package in place in advance of that.
I am aware this is not under the remit of the Minister's Department, as such, but perhaps he might talk to his Government colleagues about how we might do something in that space. Ultimately, people need somewhere to stay and they need a roof over their heads. We must be practical and realistic about what we can do. It may be the case that those bed nights will not be available for the summer period. If that is the case, there needs to be financial supports for those businesses to get them through this bump, which they will go through.
There are plans afoot to try to get some modular units to try to provide that alternative accommodation so we can get people out of hotels and into more semi-permanent accommodation. I am concerned that when these units are built initially they will look lovely and will look fantastic, but they will not last forever. Some conversations need to be had with the local authorities on how these units will be maintained. In ten or 15 years, we do not want that these particular builds to look grubby and rundown; we want them to look like the nice part of the community they were put into. This is something to be mindful of. It was raised with me locally as to whether these modular units would fall into disrepair at a quicker pace and I was asked how they would look in 15 years. This is a concern for communities. These are the kinds of issues to consider as we try to get planning across the line for these units and we must address these concerns being raised by local residents.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Ar dtús báire ba mhaith liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis as an méid oibre atá déanta aige agus ag a Roinn ar an ábhar seo. It is extraordinary, in all the circumstances we have, to have achieved what we have achieved in accommodating those coming into the State looking for assistance, protection, asylum or whatever word one wants to put on it.
Obviously, the ordinary person seeking international protection is different from a Ukrainian. The numbers of Ukrainians who have come here have, in and of themselves, swamped a system that simply has not been equipped to deal with them. Even in the ordinary international protection system, I think we have done a good job, but there is no doubt that there are cracks in the system at this stage. I recognise that there are concerns in local communities about how we are going to continue accommodating those people. My view is that we need to do absolutely everything we can.
I would welcome the Minister's clarification in this respect, but I do not agree with comments that we are not obliged to take everybody who comes here seeking asylum. My understanding is that under international law we are obliged to do so. If somebody comes here seeking international asylum, we must assess their case. Not everybody will qualify for it under the process of looking for international protection. In those circumstances, the consequences are clear that they should be deported to the country from which they came. However, many people come here with legitimate cases and fears. I have been in many forums, including national media, where it has been said that people could not possibly be seeking international protection from Albania or Georgia. Depending on what part of the community one is from, or one's sexual orientation, religion or ethnicity within that country, it might be absolutely justified. I make no comment one way or the other.
There is a notion creeping into our psyche that people coming here seeking international protection are not genuine, or are not entitled to it. In fact the vast majority of them are. We have international legal obligations to abide by that system whereby we take them in and assess their case. Assuming that they qualify for international protection, we look after them and give them the protection they require and deserve. I believe we have done that, but in order to do it properly we need to hugely bulk up the system that processes those applications. There is a fundamental unfairness in the notion that somebody who comes here from an acknowledged war zone, or a country where their particular circumstances put them at risk, has to spend so much time waiting for the application process to run its course. During that time they put down roots and ultimately it may be that those roots are torn up again if they fail in their application. If they are to be deported after their application fails, it should happen quickly. That is the fairest thing for them, as well as for the people seeking international protection who are qualified for it.
I acknowledge the work that has been done, especially given the week that is in it. This time last year, nobody would have thought for a moment that we would have managed to accommodate the number of people we have accommodated. As I said at a previous Commencement debate with the Minister, he is somebody with a genuine stake in this. He is interested in protecting people and is interested in solving this problem. He has compassion and understanding for the people coming here, and I want to acknowledge that. I have raised the issue of racism. My concern is that, as a Government, we are allowing a vacuum to develop, which is being filled by nefarious people with absolutely the wrong idea about what is happening in this country. We are allowing a situation to develop whereby certain people are peddling a narrative that somehow these people are not entitled to be here, should not be here and are not our neighbours in humanity, when in fact they are.
One of the myths being propagated by those people is that Irish people are not getting houses because of people from other countries coming here seeking our protection. I would again be grateful if the Minister could confirm this, but my understanding is that there is not a single person on a housing list who has not been allocated a house because of an international protection applicant. That is an important message because the contrary is all over the Internet. I hear people in public, throughout the country and in my own area saying that so-and-so could not get a house because an international protection applicant got it. In no uncertain terms, that is a lie. There are people propagating it without knowing it is a lie, but it is the job of us all, and also the Government, to make sure people know it is not correct. My concern is that if we do not mobilise a public information campaign to tell people that certain information is wrong, we will allow a vacuum to emerge, which will be filled by all the worst elements of our society.
Hear, hear.
It will be filled by people who want to breed nothing but hatred, contempt, xenophobia and racism, to be honest about it. These are statements about international protection applicants, but we must of course distinguish that there are Irish people in this country who look different. I know I have said this previously in this Chamber, but there are Irish people of ethnic variety who get told that they do not belong here. They are Irish. They are as Irish as the Minister or me, or anybody else in this Chamber. They are born here, their families are here and they live here. Many of them speak Irish, or speak English with Irish accents. They are Irish people, but because they look different they are subjected to racial abuse and taunting. They are subjected to assaults and worse, as we have seen. I hope there is room in the budget and programme of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to mount the kind of information campaign we saw with Covid. I honestly believe there is a situation now that warrants the same level of urgency. If we do not do it now, and racism gets a toehold in this country, it will be impossible to undo it. At school level, at university level, at community level and in the national media. I hope the Department will find room to mount an extraordinary public information campaign to convince people of the value we derive from people coming from outside and what they contribute, and to dispel the myths propagated by other people.
I thank all Senators for their contributions. It was a useful opportunity to discuss some of these issues, and to raise and address some of the misconceptions or disagreements that permeate through the Government and State response to the unprecedented crisis we face. I will take it from the start with the numbers and our State's ability to meet the needs of a significant number of arrivals, both from Ukraine and within international protection. I do not doubt for a minute, and neither does the Government, that the State has been pushed. There is pressure here and it is not easy when there is a very large and sudden increase in your country's population. It is not easy, but that is the consequence of a war. It is the consequence of a war in Europe the like of which we have not seen in Europe in any of our lifetimes. There is a question about what the State does in that situation, and how it responds. Does it say "No", does it say it is not going to reach out, or does it step up and do its thing? I think we have done that. It has been hard.
When one looks around Europe, it is obvious that not everyone has stepped up to the same extent, but others have stepped up further. There are countries that have taken in millions of people. It might be said that some of them have a bigger land mass or a bigger population, but none of them are as wealthy as our country. We have to recognise that Poland has taken in 1.4 million people and 7 million people have passed through the country. It is a far poorer country than this one. Hungary has taken about 900,000 people. Romania and Moldova, a country which is not even in the European Union, have taken greater numbers than we have. It is not a competition or a numbers game, but we have to realise that because of where our country stands now in terms of GDP, GNI* or whatever metric we want to use, we are a wealthy country. I believe we are able to stretch ourselves, although I recognise it is a stretch. That feeds into the issue of pressure on housing across the country.
Since the first day we addressed this issue in both Houses of the Oireachtas I have always recognised that our response is in the context of a housing crisis which means we are not able to provide everybody who needs one with a forever home. However, it is important to say that the Government has designed our response to the needs of Ukrainians and the needs of international protection in a way that means no one seeking housing in Ireland is disadvantaged in terms of their position on a housing list. Like myself, many people here started their careers on councils as councillors. We know the pressure local authorities are under to provide social housing, and how long many families and individuals have waited on a social housing list. In my own county of Fingal, some people have been waiting for ten, 11 or 12 years. International protection applicants do not get access to the social housing list. International protection applicants do not get access to housing assistance payment, HAP. Ukrainians do not get access to the social housing list or to HAP. They are accommodated in other forms. They are accommodated in hotels, guest houses, converted offices and modular homes. Unfortunately some international protection applicants are currently accommodated in tents, and some are not accommodated at all. For me, the worst thing is that we are not able to accommodate everybody, even in the limited accommodation system we have created for Ukrainians and international protection applicants. It is really important, and Senators have rightly focused on that point, that we are providing a basic level of accommodation for international protection applicants and for Ukrainians in this country.
We have had some useful discussion on what it is to be an international protection applicant.
Senator Keogan used the term "asylum seeker". I use the term "international protection applicant" because it is the official term and I try to stick with that. It is important to note that everyone who seeks international protection has a right to have their application assessed. I would agree with what Senator Ward said. Not everybody will be successful. There will be adjudications that say a person does not meet the criteria for international protection. Unfortunately I do not have the section of the Act here to read it out but it is important to say that international protection is not only given to people who are fleeing a war-torn situation. Many people in the process are fleeing war-torn situations but it can also be where people can prove that they risk persecution because of situations unique to them, which are listed. It could be because someone is LGBT+ in a country where that is not accepted. It could be because someone is a woman, a feminist activist in a country where that is not accepted. It could be on religious grounds or on a range of other grounds. If an individual's situation meets the criteria, then he or she is entitled to international protection. We do not say that people from one country cannot get access to international protection.
Senator Keogan mentioned inaccurate and incorrect documents. That is an issue that has been raised. It is fair to raise it but it is also fair to put it into context. We in Ireland are used to being able to leave our country freely. We have a right to a passport. We have a right to travel outside of our country. It is not the same in every country. There are many countries where people's ability to leave the country is absolutely dependent on the government of the day giving them an exit visa. For a feminist activist in Iran right now, or someone who is LGBT+ in Afghanistan, it is very likely that the regimes there see them as an enemy. If they are looking to flee their country, the only actual way is to use fake documents. It is genuinely hard for us to assess that because we live in a country where it is not even an issue. It is a reality of flight. It is a reality of persecution that people have to use such documents in some circumstances.
Well said.
You cannot get out of Iran without permission of your husband or permission of your father. You cannot leave that country unless you have that document. That is what the legislation in Iran provides.
That is not actually a good thing.
I did not say it was a good thing.
I think that strengthens the case, though.
It does strengthen the case but that is what I am saying. You cannot leave that country unless you have some sort of documentation from a husband or from a father.
For some people who cannot be provided with that, they will use that and it will not be a correct one. That is the reality. It is fair to put what people do to protect themselves in this context.
That makes the case stronger as well.
It is something that is hard for us to understand here in this country.
On the issue of racism and hatred, Senator Flynn spoke very vividly about the very real hatred her community and indeed she has experienced in her lifetime. There is within the dialogue and discourse over recent weeks a strand of genuine hatred against people because of their race, because of their ethnicity, because of their colour. That did not just arrive over the last number of weeks. It has been there in certain groups. The State has a duty to respond. I will set out what the State is doing. Next week we will be publishing the national action plan against racism. Senator Ward and I have discussed that already. It is a recognition that racism is endemic in our country and something that we have to fight across government and across the State. The national action plan is not a response to the current upsurge since the war in Ukraine. It is a recognition that racism was there, that Senator Flynn's community has been a victim of it, that people who are Irish but who have a different ethnicity have been victims of it. It is to look at that in a systemic way.
We also have to respond to the immediate situation that we face. Government has to be more proactive in terms of communication, explaining why someone would seek international protection, explaining the rights that an international protection applicant has, or a Ukrainian under the temporary protection directive, explaining what rights they do not have as well and explaining how there is not direct competition in terms of the housing market. That is being worked on at the moment. It will not be led by my Department. It will be led centrally through Government Information Services. That is correct because it has to be an all-of-government approach.
When we are opening new accommodation, be it for Ukrainians or international protection applicants, I know we have to do better in terms of providing information. It is only information, it is not a veto, it is not asking permission. We are working within our Department to do better in terms of our ability to provide that, again in a situation where we are doing so much more than we were expecting to do in January of last year.
Senator Chambers made some points about modular accommodation. These are homes designed to last for 60 years. They are really good-quality accommodation. They will be used by Ukrainians initially but I believe many of the modular homes will actually eventually end up as part of the local authority housing stock in the areas where they are located. They will be seen as a really valuable part of that. The pilot we have done in terms of modular homes may change people's minds and help them see modular as another part of our response to the housing crisis. I remember when I was first on the council in 2014 there was talk of modular or rapid-build as it was then and it was rejected. People said it was not an option as it was not good enough quality. I think that was a mistake. I am certainly convinced that we can provide really good-quality accommodation using modular and it can help speed up the delivery by local authorities and approved housing bodies of housing solutions for people on social housing lists right now.
I really appreciate Senators' time and engagement on these issues. I look forward to us all working collectively to address the needs of people from Ukraine within the international protection process and of course addressing the many significant needs that already existed in our country.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 2.07 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 2.15 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 2.07 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.