Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Mar 2023

Vol. 292 No. 12

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Agriculture Supports

Senator Erin McGreehan

The Minister is very welcome to the House and I thank him for coming. I have submitted this matter for inclusion in the Commencement debate a few times and I am delighted to be called today.

My ask today is for the Minister to consider including a disability accessibility adaption grant for farming families under the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS 3, in order to make farm equipment, farm machinery and farmyards more accessible for persons with a disability. As we know TAMS 3 is a vital programme that provides financial support for farmers to modernise their farming practices, equipment and facilities. The programme has had very positive effect on farmers who have been able to improve their yields, increase their income and improve their sustainability practices.

However, we cannot ignore the needs of the disabled community. Farmers with disabilities face additional challenges when it comes to modernising their farming practices, equipment and facilities. We must ensure that TAMS 3 works for all and is accessible to all farming families regardless of ability. Therefore, I strongly suggest that we consider adding disability accessibility adaption and assistive technology to the list of eligible areas for TAMS 3 funding. This would allow farmers with a disability to access the resources they need to modernise the operations.

Agricultural work can be mentally and physically demanding. This does not mean that people with disabilities cannot enter the field or must stop farming after illness or injury. Many people living with disabilities choose agriculture for their career. According to CSO statistics there are approximately 136,000 farmers in the country and an average of 13.5% of the population with a disability. This means that approximately 16,000 farmers could have a disability. This does not include farming family members or workers employed on farms. Surely these farmers deserve the opportunity to be supported.

Many farmers are already struggling with low commodity prices, severe weather, long hours and all of the additional pressures on farming families. We need to ensure there are no added barriers for farmers and farming families with disabilities. There should be a method to keep farmers with disabilities updated on emerging agricultural technologies and to provide them with information on assistive technologies. An example of assistive technology includes modified machinery for those who cannot independently climb onto traditional tractors and modified farm equipment that is wheelchair accessible.

We could also look at a national agri-ability project aimed at enhancing the quality of life for farmers and other agricultural workers with disabilities so that they, their families and their communities continue to succeed in rural Ireland. An agri-ability programme would help persons with disabilities obtain gainful employment in productive agriculture. It would provide access to appropriate assistive technologies needed for work and for daily living activities. It would have evidence-based information related to the treatment and rehabilitation of disabling conditions and it would provide support for family caregivers to the farmer. A programme such as this would address a wide variety of disabling conditions in agriculture. I hope the Minister can look at this proposal and give me a favourable outcome.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank Senator McGreehan for raising this important topic. I have always seen the need to help to provide supports to make farm equipment, farm machinery and farmyards more accessible for persons with disabilities. I am very conscious of ensuring that persons with a disability who are farming receive the appropriate supports, as I know Senator McGreehan is too.

Recently I announced the new targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS 3, with a budget of €370 million. It will provide funding for capital investment on farms over the coming five years. One of the ten new TAMS 3 schemes is the farm safety capital investment scheme, which has a €90,000 investment ceiling and a new higher grant rate of 60%. This will encourage farmers to invest in physical safety infrastructure.

Since 2021 the type of equipment for persons with a disability to which Senator McGreehan referred have qualified under the acceleration of wear and tear allowances for farm safety equipment. Equipment covered by this scheme cannot be grant aided under any other departmental scheme, such as TAMS 3. However, I will ask the officials to see whether there are other opportunities in this whereby we can take additional steps, if there are any, that can aid the very worthy objective that we all want to achieve of ensuring that disability is not a barrier to participating in having a full professional life as a farmer.

In October 2021, the Minister of State with responsibility for farm safety, Deputy Martin Heydon, launched the acceleration of wear and tear allowances, which was a very worthy first-time initiative in this space. It allows for accelerated capital allowances on qualifying farm safety and adaptation equipment. This had a particular emphasis on supporting those who have suffered life-changing injuries as a result of incidents on farms or have limited mobility due to health issues.

Capital allowances are available at 12.5% per annum over eight years for agricultural equipment generally, but the scheme allows for accelerated capital allowances of 50% per annum over two years for certain qualifying equipment including, for example, access lift, hoists or integrated ramps to a farm vehicle, wheelchair-docking stations and modified controls to enable full-hand operation of a farm vehicle. The scheme supports the extensive reconfiguration of controls to enable a farm vehicle or farm machinery to be operated by a disabled person. On receipt of a valid application, the Department issues a farm safety or adaptation accelerated capital allowance certificate to the applicant for submission to Revenue in support of such claims. An annual total equipment cost of €5 million per annum, excluding VAT for the measure applies to this scheme. With this scheme, the Department is supporting farmers and those who have suffered serious physical injury or illness to get back to work. This is about more than just enabling people to getting back to farming, however. It is also about improving their physical and mental well-being.

This accelerated capital allowance underlines the priority afforded to the issue of farm safety in the programme for Government and reflects the commitment to make further progress. The Government has prioritised farm safety, health and well-being. In addition to the farm safety capital investment scheme and the acceleration of wear and tear allowances for farm safety equipment scheme, my ministerial colleagues also secured dedicated funding of €2.5 million for a range of farm safety, health and well-being initiatives in the budget for this year. These initiatives include supports for education and awareness through promoting farm safety practices and risk awareness that encourages behavioural change around farm safety from a young age while also supporting those who have been affected by fatal and non-fatal incidents.

Farming, as we know all too well, is a dangerous occupation. It is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling career paths but the statistics on deaths, injuries and near misses are frightening. We are all focused in the Department on reducing the risk associating with farming. The Minister of State has done tremendous work in this space and I will continue to back him in these endeavours. Through the investments I have outlined, particularly TAMS 3, we are playing a leadership role in helping to make safer work environments on our farms.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I am glad to hear of all the positive work the Department is doing. What sort of accessibility funding has been drawn down and what are the results of that? Are there reviews of the wear and tear allowances and the farm assistance equipment scheme? What is the results-based knowledge on that? Is a review built into the system to ensure it is disability proofed and does what it is supposed to do? These are very positive schemes and the Minister has taken a proactive approach to them. I thank him for his presence in the Chamber and look forward to following up on the results.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I do not have the figures on the uptake so far. It was a first-time initiative that was innovative in looking at the disability challenges that existed at farm level, and from a Government point of view, we have been working to support that. Alongside that, we are doing significant work in the farm safety space as well, given many of the challenges relating to disability can result from on-farm accidents. Farming is, unfortunately, the most dangerous occupation. Despite the fact it can be fulfilling, it is dangerous.

There are accelerated capital allowances in respect of farm safety equipment and TAMS provide support in that regard. I will ask my team to examine any further opportunities to work to support farmers, especially those who have needs in regard to being able to have access, and disability measures taken at farm level to see whether we can take any additional steps there. The commitment of the Government is reflected in the appointment of the Minister of State, Deputy Heydon, with specific responsibility for farm safety. Working with him and the team in the Department, I will look to see whether there are any additional steps we can take in this space. We have done more than has ever happened previously and we want to continue to support it.

Waste Management

Senator Lynn Boylan

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach. We all know, and I have discussed previously with the Minister of State, that using raw materials unsustainably is the current model and that we need to overhaul our economic model from one that is based on "take, make, waste" to one that is circular. "Reduce, reuse, recycle" is probably the idea that is most commonly associated with the circular economy. The Minister of State will be aware we introduced, initially as an amendment to the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act but now as a stand-alone Bill, a proposal to ban companies dumping brand-new, unused products and prevent that material from entering the waste stream.

Today, however, I am focusing on products that are reusable even though they have entered the waste stream. According to the old saying, one person's trash is another person's treasure, and my dad cannot walk past a skip without having a look into it and seeing what is there. We need a more structured and formal system. Circular economy social enterprises have popped up. One of them, Camara, deals with computers, and there is also Liberty Recycling. Even the civic amenity review document cites the example of an organisation that goes into those civic amenities, takes the knobs and dials from electrical appliances and uploads information about them online, where people can access it. If someone needs, say, a dial for their oven that has gone out of production, they can go to the website and find a replacement. Of course, that makes absolute sense and it is an excellent initiative, and many similar enterprises also salvage reusable items from the waste stream.

I understand, however, that barriers prevent civic amenity operators from allowing such social enterprises salvage from their waste. The first issue relates to the provision of waste licences granted by the Environmental Protection Agency. Often, it precludes the operators from licensed waste facilities from allowing people to salvage from the waste even when they would like to. There could be a perfectly functional bike a child has grown out of or there might be furniture considered outdated to someone's taste that a waste disposal company is licence-bound not to pass on. The phrase used in many of the licences is that scavenging shall not be permitted at the facility. Even that language is outdated and I think the Minister of State will agree it comes from a different era. The word "scavenging" conjures images such as vermin or vultures coming in. We need a structured, formalised type of salvaging of useful items that does not have the same connotations, and it is an activity we should encourage. One-off organisations such as the Ballymun Rediscovery Centre show we can give a new lease of life to furniture, clothes and bicycles. The EPA-licensed site report on waste enforcement cites scavenging permitted on site as one area of non-compliance with the licence. In an era when we are more urgently trying to make our economy more circular, perhaps we need to take a second look at the blanket bans on salvaging.

The second issue has to do with the end-of-waste criteria. The end-of-waste framework holds that once an item enters the system of EPA-licensed facilities, when it is dropped off at a site or collected in a skip, that waste cannot leave the system without being granted an end-of-waste application. I understand we need to have safeguards and we do not want mica blocks ending up back on the market, but end-of-waste decisions are relatively rare in this country.

Senator Lynn Boylan:

I think only three were completed in 2022. Will the Minister of State give me an update on the end-of-waste decisions and whether that will be rolled out more formally? We do not know the exact scale but we know certain items going into the waste stream could be reused or given a new life. I would like to hear the Minister of State's thoughts and views on the subject.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

The handling of waste within Ireland and all other member states is subject to the provisions of the waste framework directive. The directive defines what is waste and requires that waste be managed in a manner that does not endanger human health or the environment; that does not pose a risk to water, air, soil, plants or animals; that does not cause a nuisance through noise or odours; and that does not adversely affect the countryside or places of special interest. Irish waste legislation is in accordance with the directive, and it is not open to member states to deviate unilaterally from these requirements.

The directive also lays down criteria to determine when a waste material may cease to be considered a waste and become a product or a secondary raw material. These criteria are given effect in Ireland through the end-of-waste authorisation process operated by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, which offers a valuable route for the reuse of materials. The Waste Action Plan for a Circular Economy, published in 2020, committed to a number of measures aimed at more fully realising the potential of the end-of-waste process to contribute to material reuse and a circular economy in Ireland. In fulfilment of these commitments, the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 contains provision for the Minister to make regulations on the charging of fees, the format of applications and accompanying information, and the circumstances in which applications may be refused or rejected. Regulations are currently being drafted in this regard and they will be put forward for public consultation in the second quarter of this year.

In parallel with these requirements, the waste framework directive also establishes a five-step waste hierarchy, setting out an order of preference for the management and disposal of waste. In setting prevention as the highest tier, the hierarchy recognises that the best way to handle waste is to prevent it. The other steps on the hierarchy, in decreasing order of desirability, are reuse, recycling, recovery and, finally, disposal.

Over the past two decades Ireland has made significant progress in driving our performance up the waste hierarchy and moving away from disposal as our primary treatment option. We have come a long way from the 2005 finding of the European Court of Justice that we were “generally and persistently” failing to meet the requirements of the waste framework directive.

The Waste Action Plan for a Circular Economy builds on this progress through some 200 measures to be delivered over the five-year lifetime of the plan. Initiatives include the recently signed regulations for incentivised charging for commercial waste, the introduction of a deposit-and-return scheme for plastic bottles and aluminium cans, and environmental levies on single-use plastic items such as disposable coffee cups, and these will all help divert material away from disposal and further up the waste hierarchy.

In addition, the action plan goes further by recognising that waste policy cannot be a narrow consideration of how to treat the waste we produce but must be broader, moving away from the unsustainable linear consumption model and towards a circular economy. The Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 gives effect to this ambition. It provides a legal framework for moving from a focus on managing waste to a much greater focus on adapting patterns of production and consumption. The Act provides for several key measures in this regard, including the circular economy strategy, the EPA’s circular economy programme, the national food loss prevention roadmap, and the circular economy fund. The overarching national objective is to reduce our generation of waste and all policy levers are being set in that direction. Ensuring we maximise the utility of existing resources, waste or not, is central to the objectives.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank the Minister of State for his response. It does not address the scavenging element. We know that certain perfectly legal organisations are doing this on a bespoke basis. I am looking for a more formalised universal approach to that so it is not subject to the geographical lottery of where someone lives, for example, near Ballymun or near the civic amenity centre where they are collecting the dials for electrical appliances. We could be more ambitious about how we roll that out. I welcome that regulations will be introduced in quarter 2 and I look forward to engaging with the public consultation on those.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

As the Senator said, there is a difference between salvage and scavenging. There are different circumstances. When a building is being knocked down, it has fireplaces, doors and windows which could be reused. That type of salvage is different from people climbing on top of a landfill, for example. Clearly a different level of risk is involved between mixed-up collected waste and something which may have been abandoned but is in perfectly good order. It is also different from informal salvage, people taking things from the top of their neighbour's skip with their permission, for example. Obviously, they do not need an EPA licence to do that; no one would suggest that. Bringing used coffee pods back to a shop does not require a collector's licence and so on.

The question is whether there is a problem we need to solve here. The Senator identified that. She said that, at particular civic amenity sites, social enterprises were finding a difficulty in recovering things like bicycles because it was considered it could be a breach of the EPA rules. I will consider that in detail. I will talk to the Rediscovery Centre, for example, and see if I can address that when I am making the regulations in the second quarter.

Antisocial Behaviour

Senator Barry Ward

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit chuig an Teach. Is dócha gurb é seo an chéad uair a chonaic mé sa Teach é ón am a cheapadh sa phost nua é. Mar sin, déanaim comhghairdeas leis freisin.

The Minister of State will be very aware of the "Prime Time" programme earlier this week which covered the abuse, harassment, racial attacks, shoplifting and general crime being perpetrated against retail workers in Ireland. Anyone who saw the programme will have been shocked by the kind of conduct that seems to be de rigueur for workers in shops, petrol stations etc. throughout Ireland. It was with great dismay that we saw that happening. Some of us will have even witnessed that kind of behaviour ourselves. I tabled this Commencement matter specifically for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment because I know this affects the Minister of State in his role with responsibility for the retail sector.

I also recognise the enormous role played by Tara Buckley from RGDATA representing the small retailers and grocers around the country who are at the front line of this kind of behaviour. It has conducted surveys with its own members showing that 95% of them have been the victims of crime and 93% of them have been the victims of shoplifting. I know the Minister of State is part of the retail theft forum also involving the Garda. The Garda's own figures have shown a 41% increase in this kind of behaviour. Shopkeepers have said this grew during the pandemic and has not abated after the fact. It will have an enormous impact on the ability of retail shops to provide an essential service for local communities.

I have frequently complained that since the pandemic we have not opened up the evenings in particular. It is difficult to get a pint of milk after 9 p.m. anywhere in the country. Equally fast food outlets and restaurants are closing earlier than they would have before the pandemic. That will affect us on an economic level but it is also crippling for the night-time economy. The likelihood that somebody who owns a small shop will open later when faced with a greater difficulty in dealing with antisocial behaviour and the harassment we saw in that programme is considerably reduced, which is a retrograde step.

What is the Government doing to address these issues? Is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment working with the other Departments to put in place measures to ensure shopkeepers can feel safe? This ranges from serious criminal activity, such as armed assaults involving knives and other weapons to shoplifting, the costs of which ultimately will be passed on to the consumer because retailers cannot continue to bear the burden of lost stock. It also involves harassment, abuse, antisocial behaviour and racial harassment. This week, not before time, the national action plan against racism was published.

These are serious issues. I know the Government is serious about tackling them. I ask the Minister of State to outline the provisions he wants to see put in place to address these issues to reassure shopkeepers that we value the role they play in society. To show we value the service they provide to towns, villages and communities throughout the country, we need to address the issues raised in the course of that programme by Tara Buckley and others on behalf of the people they represent.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Neale Richmond)

I thank the Senator sincerely for raising this timely and pertinent issue. It is an issue I am extremely interested in as the Minister of State responsible for retail and one about which I have serious concerns that affect all our communities. It is important to put a statistic out there. There are more than 225,000 retail workers in the State. It is the largest private sector employer in the State and has huge importance to our economy but crucially also to our communities. I think that goes to some of the points the Senator is making in terms of the ability to access stores late at night. I watched the "Prime Time" episode on Tuesday night and more importantly, I chaired the retail forum in the Department yesterday where this was discussed at my request. We added it into the agenda under any other business. I will be really clear before the House this morning on the point that everyone should feel safe in their workplace. It does not matter where they work, but I refer in particular to retail workers and consumer and front-facing staff in every sector. This is an area on which I intend on working closely with the Minster for Justice, Deputy Harris. I spoke with him yesterday about it briefly but we are going to speak again. After speaking to and engaging with retailers and representatives such as Ms Tara Buckley of RGDATA, I am aware that the main way they want to be kept safe is by having more gardaí on the ground, on the streets in our community and not trapped behind a desk in a Garda station. That is why, as a Government, we are prioritising high visibility policing as shown in Operation Citizen, which has been ongoing in Dublin city for some time now. The results are clear: having more gardaí on the streets helps not only to make people feel safer but also reduces crime and actually keeps us as citizens safe. We also have Operation Soteria in place to ensure a reduction of assaults in public, to reduce fear of violence within communities, to prioritise assault investigations and to focus on problem areas and assault hot spots. This is what we need to replicate across the country and we are well on our way towards doing so. There is of course a role for sentencing here too. The Criminal Justice Bill 2022 will bring forward an increase in the maximum penalty available for the offence of assault causing harm from five years to ten years' imprisonment. While we all want to deter crimes before they take place, and high visibility policing works towards this, we also must punish those who commit these assaults to send a strong message that they are not acceptable.

Budget 2023 allowed for the recruitment of 1,000 additional gardaí to join the ranks, as well as 400 civilian staff. These civilian staff members are so important because they do the administrative work in the stations which allows members of the Garda themselves to spend more time in our communities where they want to be. I firmly believe this lies at the heart of keeping everyone safe, retail workers included, and I am glad to hear that the Minister, Deputy Harris, agrees with this. Tomorrow, a new Garda recruitment campaign will kick off a new Garda recruitment period. This goes to the fact that over €2.14 billion has been put into the An Garda Síochána budget for this year and we are not holding back on achieving these goals.

As the Senator knows, this is an issue that I have raised many times previously in this House but also when I was a Deputy on the backbenches. It is vitally important we have the increased number of gardaí. Now that Templemore has been reopened and we are constantly attesting members of the Garda, we are not only plugging the gap of retirements or resignations but are getting more gardaí out into communities and onto the streets. Crucially, we are working with retailers and local business groups to feed in their experience and their views on what they would like to see happen to keep their workers safe. An Garda Síochána has a range of national, regional and local operations aimed at reducing antisocial behaviour and improving feelings of community safety. Garda management keeps the distribution of resources under continual review and this is something on which I will continue to work with the Minister, Deputy Harris. Crucially, I would like to work with the Senator, with groups like RGDATA and other Members across the Oireachtas, to make sure our retails workers are put front and centre in ensuring their workplaces are safe ones.

Senator Barry Ward

I thank the Minister of State. At the outset, I really appreciate the fact that he has made clear the Government's view that everybody should feel safe in their workplace and that is at the heart of this. I also recognise what was said about An Garda Síochána and the work being done by the Minister, Deputy Harris, by the Minister, Deputy McEntee. and the future work that will be done to build up the numbers in An Garda Síochána so that we have that visible policing that reassures people as well as providing easy access to law enforcement when the time comes. I welcome the campaign that will be launched this week to ensure we have the numbers of people going into Templemore to take on that job, which is one that is worth doing. It is a hugely rewarding position.

I also recognise what Tara Buckley said last night about the frustration of retailers with the Courts Service and the administration of criminal justice in terms of dealing with offenders in this space. I say that as somebody who is working within that sphere as well. As a criminal barrister, I see these cases going through the system. There are delays in that process and one of the things we need to do is to make sure that the Courts Service is equipped to speed up the delivery of justice. That is going to mean more judges, courtrooms, court and support staff to make sure those hearings can take place and the people responsible can be brought to justice.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I will conclude briefly by thanking the Senator once again for raising this point and underlining the fact that I absolutely fundamentally agree with him, both in terms of his comments in relation to additional Garda resources but crucially, additional resources for the Courts Service. That is why I welcome the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Harris, of the recruitment of more judges. That only goes to one part of it. One cannot have a judge without an effective Courts Service with the ancillary staff that go with it, with the physical locations and making sure our courts are sitting in a manner that will ensure justice is served quickly and fairly. What is crucial in this area is making sure first and foremost that retail workers are kept safe in their workplace but second, when an offence does happen, that justice is served in a timely and efficient manner and in a manner that does not take a retail worker or their employer away from their workplace for too long. I will absolutely bring all that back to the Minister, Deputy Harris. I emphasise that this is an issue on which the Government will not rest. We want to make sure all workers are safe in their workplaces. We have seen measures in relation to our front-line workers, our public service staff at our hospitals and in other areas but we need to expand that. We need to ensure retail workers in shops of all sizes, be they the small corner stores represented by RGDATA or the larger multiples, will go to work every day feeling safe and knowing they will not be put under threats of antisocial behaviour and violence.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank the Minister of State and commend Senator Ward on tabling this very important Commencement matter. As somebody who was in the retail business for many years, I was quite shocked to see what we saw on "Prime Time" the other night. I think it is something that was very relevant to raise here in the Chamber. I commend the Minister of State on his on-the-ball reply and hopefully, we will see action.

Disability Services

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is very welcome.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House today.

One of the first acts of the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, was to open Our Lady of Hope School, Crumlin, with the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. The school is a beautiful art deco school in Crumlin village and is a real flagship for what the Department can do in terms of retrofitting buildings. There is a stunning occupational therapy room and fabulous classrooms but there are no therapists in this school. Our Lady of Hope School has been open for two years. It started with 39 pupils and we are now at 43. It has nine teachers and 20 special needs assistants, SNAs; a number which is below what should be in place given that it is a special school for children with autism and additional needs. Only in the past three weeks has the school been assigned two and a half hours of psychology, speech and language therapy and occupational therapy. This is two and a half hours for a school. These hours have to be spread across 43 students with hugely complex needs. I have to point out that when the school opened, it was not as a result of an overnight decision. It was a campaign of nearly eight years by parents; by two ladies mainly. Margaret Jane Lowndes and Helen Holmes started a group called the Dublin 12 campaign for autism inclusion to open this school for autism and complex needs. We have the school and it is beautiful but we do not have the therapists to complement the school. The campaign is still very much active. What is going on here? We know that the children's disability network team, CDNT, responsible for the school itself only has one psychologist, one speech and language therapist, and one occupational therapist. That is to cover the whole area outside of the school and also encompasses the school. There is a big issue here. There is obviously an issue with recruitment. This absolutely beautiful school and its beautiful pupils with complex needs is not operational. It is not working and it is really hampering the work of the teachers and that of the principal. He is doing everything he can to ensure the kids do not just come to school for a bit of babysitting but that they get the most out of their day, are learning and regulated properly, making progress, and that he can tell the parents how their kids are coming on.

It is not happening at the moment without the proper supports. An occupational therapist, OT, is needed, who can say something is not working for the child and that the child needs more regulation, and who can give the expertise an OT has. We do not have that at the moment in this school. There is no guidance for the teachers. Teachers and SNAs are not OTs or speech and language therapists. They need that help.

The school is part of a pilot school inclusion model, SIM, team project but the project is about helping the parents or teachers to help the kids. It does not work when the kids do not have direct interventions. Such interventions are needed. This beautiful OT room, which probably cost the guts of €500,000 to build, is lying idle in an autism school. OT is the first port of call for a child who gets a diagnosis of autism. It beggars belief.

The bones of a fantastic school are there. It has a beautiful building, a principal who wants to make it happen, committed teachers and SNAs, and a committed community. Dublin 12 campaign for autism inclusion has not just campaigned for the school but has many services in the community like swimming lessons, after-school clubs and weekend activities. This piece is missing and it is probably one of the most important pieces, namely, therapies in the school. The Minister of State has to do something for this school to thrive.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank the Senator for giving me the opportunity to come before the House and discuss this. I also thank the families who work closely with her in continuously campaigning. I acknowledge the tireless work of the Dublin 12 campaign group. That group has responded practically, as the Senator said, in putting good solutions in place within the community.

Last June, I, along with the then Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, the Ministers, Deputies Foley, O’Gorman and Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, met the heads of the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the HSE. At that time it was Bernard O’Regan, Damien McCallion and Anne O’Connor, who has since left. I am not sticking entirely to the script because I want to give context to answer some of the Senator’s questions. It was agreed to reinstate therapists in schools. We were allocated funding of €13.5 million to reinstate 136 therapists. They were to be the priority therapists and that was to start in September. Unfortunately, the HSE had to engage again with the unions and that took some time.

The school the Senator referenced is one of four new special schools in the country. Perhaps there was not an understanding of what was in the background or the needs to be provided for. It was agreed that, at a bare minimum, 35 hours would be returned directly to the Senator’s school as a starting point. For the Senator to tell me the psychology is 2.5 hours beggars belief. Psychology in the school, at a bare minimum, was to be 12 hours. It was to get 11.5 hours of OT and 11.5 speech and language as a starting point, not an end point. The therapists were to be on site.

With regard to Our Lady of Hope in Crumlin, I am advised the school has been allocated OT and psychology and it is the same across the other four schools. Danu is another school in Dublin. Carrigaline is another school, and Rochestown as it comes on stream. That was the starting point.

It is intended the psychology posts will start in the Senator’s school on 17 April. Nobody has told me otherwise, other than what the Senator has relayed this morning. My understanding is 12 hours' psychology is to go into the Senator’s school as one third of the full-time 35 hours to start with. I will take up what the Senator has said. She is right. With the new school there is a fantastic service but it needs to be operationalised. The parents and teachers are not therapists; they will work to the guidance given to them by the trained clinician. Recruitment is a problem. There is no shying away from that but the HSE, to be fair, has gone out to doing external recruitment. I am tirelessly speaking about an assistant OT, an assistant speech and language therapist and an occupational therapist who can stay in that school, deliver therapies and be the continuous intervention required. The HSE needs to act at pace. While we need the clinicians to write up the programmes, we need the assistants to be full time in the schools. We can do that. This is the direct solution that is required. I will continue to work with the Senator in ensuring that happens.

Have I a deadline for all these therapists to be in the schools? It was supposed to have happened by the end of January. We need to see all therapists by 1 September, with a commitment to all the principals as to what they can expect to see.

Senator Catherine Ardagh

I thank the Minister of State. We will know the school is working well and has the therapists when I do not hear from it. Principals and parents do not contact me when they have the proper resources. These parents, principals and teachers now have to be not only OTs and speech and language therapists, but also advocates. That should not be the case. They need to concentrate on the kids in the class. We need to know if there is a plan for our CDNT in Crumlin. There is a huge shortfall. It is not just missing it by 50%. We are at 2.5 hours when it should be 35 hours. Something has gone dramatically wrong. Will the Minister of State look into why there is a huge disparity? Why is this school being left behind while other schools have their therapists back? It is a new school but that should not disbar it from having therapists.

I implore the Minister of State to do something for this school. It is not right to send a kid to a school who does not have the support. These are not just any children but amazing kids with complex needs. It is heartbreaking. I hate using the term “half-assed” but we have a beautiful school and do not follow through with the therapists. It beggars belief and is infuriating. The Minister of State has to do something for this school.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Of course I will. I suggest that, out of this Commencement matter, the Senator and I, the Dublin 12 group and the local HSE could set up a meeting to understand what the timeline is, what good will look like, when the Senator will see it and when the Dublin 12 campaign group will go back to being parents and not therapists.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

That is great. I thank the Minister of State. That is much appreciated.

Schools Building Projects

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, to the House.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the Minister of State for being here and taking this important question on Scoil Aonghusa. I acknowledge the Minister of State’s work in recent weeks and months on free book schemes for all special schools in the country. It is really important, as the Minister of State knows because she has been in Tipperary with me. It is important for schools in Tipperary, particularly the school I will discuss. I want to give the Minister of State the opportunity to speak on that because it is important for those schools.

Scoil Aonghusa is a fantastic school. The principal, Siobhan Keyes Ryan, the vice principal, Ciara Ryan, the staff do phenomenal work for the kids there. Last year, the school applied for an extension to the building. They used to use a building outside that was not fit for purpose and cannot be used any more for health and safety reasons. They applied for 12 new rooms in their building. They thought that was to be approved but recently have been given to understand just five rooms will be built. They are not really sure what will happen with the other seven.

They are not really sure what is going to happen. The school has been in contact with the Department a number of times, but no clarity has been given. The problem with this is that the school has 14 students who are ready to start there next September, but they will not get the places if the school does not have the units in place for them. For obvious reasons, therefore, there are concerns among the principal and the staff element within the school, but there is also real concern for the parents involved.

I ask that we get some clarity for the school on this extension and whether the whole application will be approved. I know there are complications in terms of planning permission. Supposedly, one can do five units without needing planning permission but if one wants the full 12, one needs planning permission. The school is getting mixed messages when it speaks to the Department, however. It has caused confusion for the staff. Then, obviously, the parents want to know. They go to the principal and vice principal to ask what will happen in September but they do not have the answers. I am asking the Minister of State to put a bit of pressure on the Department to meet with the principal and staff and get to a point where they can give clarity to the parents of the pupils who are hopefully going to start there in September. The Minister of State saw this when she visited that school. The amount of work done by Ms Siobhan Keyes Ryan is incredible. The pupils benefit hugely from it. Any assistance the Minister of State could give in her role would be hugely appreciated.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Senator for his comments regarding free books for primary school children. As Minister of State with responsibility for special education, I was particularly pleased that special schools will for the very first time get schoolbooks which, as the Senator knows, means a huge amount to children with additional needs and their families. We are really pleased about that. I thank the Senator for acknowledging it.

Specifically with regard to Scoil Aonghusa, Ms Siobhan Keyes Ryan and Ms Ciara Ryan Gleeson do fantastic work and it has wonderful staff and children. Obviously, this application was made under the additional school accommodation scheme. It is under a new stream within that particular programme, which is called the reconfiguration and modular accommodation programme. It provides for the first time a project manager to assist the school authority with delivery. Projects that are being delivered under the scheme are devolved to the school authorities and it is a matter then for the schools to progress these projects on that basis, obviously, subject to departmental review at various points in the process, which is a good thing. The number of stages has been minimised to ensure the efficiency and efficacy of delivery while also maintaining the necessary governance structure that is required. The project manager will visit the school site and, in consultation with the school authority, will prepare what they call a viability report to identify the best accommodation solution for the Department’s consideration and approval. That is just to put in into context.

On approval, the Department will then notify the school authority directly that it may proceed to the next stage subject to its agreement of the final project brief, as they call it. The Department will then issue funding for the project. I am pleased to advise the Senator that a meeting has already been arranged between the school authority and the project manager as part of the process outlined. My understanding is that the actual specification of the brief for Scoil Aonghusa is ten classrooms, five of which are general. There are three junior special educational needs, SEN, classrooms and two classrooms for moderate pupils. That is my understanding of what the approval is. It is an absolutely fantastic school. The work it does is phenomenal, particularly for children with additional needs. It is brilliant that there is going to be extra SEN accommodation in the additional school accommodation that is envisaged. If more schools were like it, the world would be a better place for children with additional needs. I want to very much commend the school and, indeed, the work the Senator is doing in that regard.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the Minister of State very much for her response. This brings me to the confusion the school has. That meeting with the project manager is happening this evening, which is fantastic and very welcome. This is the problem, which I hope the Minister of State's office might be able to help with before that meeting happens this evening. The project manager is of the understanding that five classrooms are approved, the school is of the understanding that 12 are approved and the Department is of the understanding that ten are approved. It is something that can easily be resolved if the Minister of State's office could perhaps talk to the project manager before he meets the principal this evening to outline exactly what has been agreed, and if it is not what the school principal thinks, outline what needs to be done for it to be approved. The school is of the view that it is five classrooms. The Department is saying it is ten classrooms, five of which are special classrooms, three of which are junior special educational needs classrooms and two of which are for moderate pupils. We need to get clarity before that meeting happens tonight. I ask that the Minister of State's office contacts the project manager before that happens this evening.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I will certainly speak to the Department and make sure the project manager ensures he gives the correct detail to the school authorities today. Again, I reiterate my understanding that it is ten classrooms, five of which are general classrooms, three of which are junior special educational needs classrooms and two of which are for moderate pupils. As the Senator said, however, the school has a different view. We need to make sure everyone is ad idem in their understanding. Hopefully, that meeting will help to resolve any of those outstanding issues. I again commend the Senator on bringing this to my attention. He is a great advocate for additional needs in particular. I am always happy to help in terms of trying to assist with matters like this.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank the Minister of State very much. I thank Senator Ahearn for raising this very important issue.

Water Services

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

The Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, is very welcome to the House.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

The Minister of State is welcome back to the House this morning to discuss this Commencement matter regarding the taking in charge of housing estates and the input required from Irish Water in that regard. Irish Water states that it is co-operating with the planning authorities nationally to access the taking in charge of residential estates and the transfer of water services assets located in those estates to Uisce Éireann for ongoing operation and maintenance. Unfortunately, however, all over the country, residents in many housing estates are finding the process of their estates being taken in charge by the local authority as very long and frustrating. Many of the residents are being told that the process is being held up by Irish Water. They are being told this by their local authority. Money has been spent in many cases by the local authorities to bring the developments up to a point where they are ready to be taken in charge but from there on, the problem seems to arise with Irish Water with regard to the taking in charge of their infrastructure.

Residents tell me that typically when a query goes into Irish Water, they basically get an automated response that their request has been recognised and is cued for response, and that a team member will be in contact with them shortly. Unfortunately, that seems to be as far as the process goes. In County Monaghan, which is a relatively small county, 28 estates are currently caught in this logjam where the local authority states it has provided all the necessary information to Irish Water but, unfortunately, that is where the roadblock seems to be. If a small county like Monaghan has 28 estates caught in this quagmire, it is safe to assume the same applies right across the country with many people finding themselves in that situation. Thousands of people are basically left in a limbo situation.

I know of someone who is trying to dispose of a property and someone who is trying to purchase the property. The fact the estate has not been taken in charge by the local authority makes it difficult for someone to get finance to purchase that property. Their legal advice would be not to purchase it, due to the fact the estate has not been taken in charge. It would be too onerous a responsibility on the owner to purchase such a property in that instance. Therefore, from the point of view of the legal advice and, indeed, the difficulty in getting finance to purchase such a property, unfortunately, these people are going nowhere.

There is also the additional problem of what is called developer provided infrastructure, DPI.

There are many instances where a developer will have put in the infrastructure at the outset of the development but, unfortunately, the developer is no longer around and the residents are left with it. The local authorities are telling me that Irish Water is point-blank refusing even to discuss the possibility of taking these developments in charge. That is another issue that needs to be addressed. I do not know what the problem is with Irish Water, whether it is a lack of staff or a lack of finance on its part, but something needs to be done. In the case of some of these estates, the process has been going on for five, six or seven years and that is simply not good enough.

I hope the Minister of State can shed some light on the issue as to what the problem is with Irish Water and, more important, what solutions we have in mind to address this current impasse.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

The Senator has raised an important issue. The number of 28 estates in County Monaghan is significant. The Water Services Acts 2007 to 2020 set out the arrangements in place for the delivery of water and wastewater services by Uisce Éireann and for the scrutiny and oversight provisions that apply in respect of these arrangements. Water and wastewater connection issues are a matter for Uisce Éireann, which has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local level.

The taking in charge of residential estates is primarily the statutory responsibility of the planning authority under section 180 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. In accordance with existing Government policy guidelines, Uisce Éireann is co-operating with the planning authorities nationally to assess the taking in charge of residential estates and the transfer of water services assets in these estates to it for ongoing operation and maintenance. In practice, all local authorities are working in collaboration with Uisce Éireann in the taking in charge of residential estates in accordance with signed understandings and protocols leading to the transfer of water services infrastructure assets within the estates to Uisce Éireann. For new estates, under Uisce Éireann’s connections policy, once it has been established developers have met all the conditions of the connection offer, Uisce Éireann takes over the water and wastewater element. If estates have not been taken in charge, Uisce Éireann has no authority or responsibility for water services that are not in public ownership.

As for volumes of overall taking in charge activity, Uisce Éireann is working through 2,368 taking-in-charge applications in all 31 local authority areas, excluding group water schemes and developer-provided infrastructure, which are additional programmes. A total of 1,313 taking in charge estates are complete to date, including 57,885 housing units. More than 60% of the estates have been taken in charge for water and wastewater nationwide. This equates to 618 km of water mains and 554 km of wastewater pipes.

In regard to County Monaghan specifically, Uisce Éireann has received applications for 36 housing estates to be taken in charge. Of these, 17 are being queried by Uisce Éireann with notices returned to the local authority setting out the queries. The queries include the case or basis for the estate being transferred and incomplete information with the application. Uisce Éireann is working with Monaghan County Council on progressing the other 19 applications.

The Government is committed to the significant and sustained investment needed to ensure the continued operation, upgrade and repair of the country’s water and wastewater infrastructure and to support economic development in the years to come. In this regard, budget 2023 secured more than €1.78 billion to support water services, so it is certainly not a financial issue. This includes €1.65 billion in respect of domestic water services provision by Uisce Éireann. This overall investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services, support improved water supplies throughout Ireland, including rural Ireland, and support a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes and marine area, making a significant contribution to addressing Ireland’s needs.

I will follow up in my response to the issue of developer-provided infrastructure the Senator raised.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I am a bit disappointed that there was no acknowledgement of the fact that we have a problem, which we clearly do, not just in County Monaghan but throughout the country. I would be grateful if we could look at some measure to try to something about the backlog not just in Monaghan but elsewhere as well. People's lives are on hold as a result of the delay.

In regard to developer-provided infrastructure, there does not seem to be any green light. I propose the Department look at providing ring-fenced funding in order that developer-provided infrastructure could be tackled and taken in charge by Uisce Éireann. Ultimately, that needs to happen because those people are also in limbo.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The point the Senator raised regarding developer-led infrastructure is a useful one and we will relay it to Uisce Éireann. There is a separate scheme for developer-led infrastructure, but looking at trying to put a focused effort on that into the works programme for the coming years would be useful. Uisce Éireann has developed a site resolution plan with Monaghan County Council, with an Uisce Éireann contribution of €130,000 for the the Alders in Ballybay, County Monaghan, a 20-year-old estate of 23 units and approximately 720 m of foul and water main network combined. A number of initiatives are in charge or under way with Monaghan County Council and Uisce Éireann. The taking in charge team at Uisce Éireann has continued to engage with Monaghan County Council over the past two years to get all these schemes and the site resolution plans for these schemes under way and to ensure they are all resolved in a satisfactory manner.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.36 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.02 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 10.36 a.m. and resumed at 11.02 a.m.