Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 2023

Vol. 293 No. 2

Inland Fisheries Ireland: Statements

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, back to the House. Before the debate begins, I remind Senators of the need to be cautious in referring to persons outside the House who are not in a position to defend themselves. As Senators will be aware, this House has adopted Standing Orders which seek to strike an appropriate balance between the right of Members to engage freely in debate on matters of public importance and the rights of all persons affected by such debate. Standing Orders 49A, B and C provide for a mechanism by which a person who is of the opinion that he or she has been adversely affected by an utterance can make a written submission and set out procedures for dealing with the matter. In the light of that, Senators should exercise due responsibility in any references they make to persons outside this House.

The procedure will be the Minister will have six minutes, all Senators will have six minutes and the Minister must be given at least six minutes to reply at the end of the debate.

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I have a slight difficulty in that I have a Cabinet sub-committee meeting to attend at 8.30 p.m. I cannot get out of that but the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, may cover for me for the closing contribution.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

That is no problem.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Apologies for that in advance. These statements are being taken later than originally planned.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to come before the Seanad and address the matters raised as regards Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. I am keen to assist the Senators in further understanding recent events.

As Members will be aware, there have been a number of resignations from the board of IFI, including two chairpersons, in the period since April 2022. The required quorum for a meeting pursuant to section 20(5) of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010 is five members. However, following the resignation of two board members in January, including the then chair, a quorum could not be attained and Inland Fisheries Ireland was, as a consequence, unable to carry out its key statutory functions set out under section 7 of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010. Taking account of this, I decided on 14 February to exercise my powers as Minister under section 18 of the Inland Fisheries Act and removed the members of IFI on a no-fault basis. Where a Minister decides to remove the board of IFI, it is open to the Minister under section 18(5) to appoint a person or persons to carry out the functions of the board. In that regard, I appointed two retired senior public servants, Mr. Tom Barry and Mr. Seamus Neely, on 14 February to carry out the functions of the board for a six-month period, pending the appointment of a new board via the appointments process set out under section 12 of the Inland Fisheries Act with the support of the Public Appointments Service.

In making the appointments under section 18(5), and in addition to carrying out the core statutory functions of IFI, I directed Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely to give particular priority to ensuring that all protected disclosures on hand in IFI, which could not be progressed in the absence of a working quorum, are dealt with promptly and in accordance with IFI's protected disclosures policies and the provisions of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014; and to carry out an external review of governance within IFI, including an examination of the respective roles of the IFI board and executive. The review will be completed within six months and will include an implementation plan, delivery of which will be overseen by a new board. My Department has been engaging with the Public Appointments Service to expedite the process of appointing a full new board.

I trust this has been of assistance and I am happy to answer questions Senators may have.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I thank the Minister. Our first contributor is Senator Kyne.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Is the Green Party not first?

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The Government speaks before the Opposition.

Senator Victor Boyhan

There is a list.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I know the list. I have taken advice on it.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I need clarification. The Clerk Assistant of the Seanad informed me the Green Party was first.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

If Green Party Senators are not here, we move to another Government Senator.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is okay but it is not the advice I was given. I want that on the record.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

As there is no Green Party Senator present, another Government Senator will take the slot, followed by Senator Boyhan.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is okay.

Senator Seán Kyne

I welcome the Minister. His statement was very brief. I acknowledge we had an opportunity to engage with the Minister at the joint committee. I am not a member of the committee but I substituted for Senator McGahon.

I was contacted by a former board member on foot of that meeting who stated:

I would like to clarify my reasons for resigning from the board. My sole reason for doing so was due to the lack of full adoption of the IFI of its legal role as a competent authority under the habitats directive as well as the poor response of IFI to its role under the water framework directive. As a professional ecologist who trains public authorities, engineers and other ecologists in the legislation, I could not in good conscience continue to serve on the board under those circumstances.

The issues at IFI were not, as implied, personality clashes but functioning of the organisation in relation to its statutory obligations.

That is from one board member who did not have a beef, as it were, with the CEO but with the overall management and functioning of the organisation in terms of habitats and water framework.

I served in the Department previously and the Minister will be aware of the difficulties with salmon stocks and the issues and ongoing debate in relation to trout and pike. As he highlighted previously, the Minister, in a previous role, established IFI under the Act and removed the regional fisheries boards. That was not a positive move for angling. I acknowledge it was done as a cost-saving measure in different times but IFI has not been a positive construct in terms of the local decision-making powers the regional boards had.

The Minister mentioned that a report will be published in six months. The difficulty I have with that is that I and other Members made disclosures or provided information to the Department and the Secretary General six months ago and, six months later, effectively nothing has happened. There are two investigations, if you like, but now the Minister is talking about this investigation taking six months. We are talking about a year of delay in getting to some sort of conclusion on this matter.

I highlighted previously that any individual who applies for a job in a State agency has a legitimate expectation to be treated fairly, be given a fair crack of the whip in an interview process and have his or her application taken seriously, and that the best man or woman for the job would receive the job. That is a legitimate expectation that people have.

Unfortunately, I and others have submitted to the Department evidence, which both Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely now have as de facto replacement board members, in respect of the appointment process within Inland Fisheries Ireland. My concern is that, six months later, appointments are still being made to senior positions in IFI where I believe there is undue interference in those job applications or in the interview processes. There are plenty of people, therefore, who applied for jobs and who now, in my view, should be taking legal advice as to whether they were treated fairly or got a fair crack of the whip in applying for those jobs. That information has been with the Minister's Secretary General since last September. That information is with the de facto board, and the two new members, Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry. It is in the possession of a number of Members of this House, a number of Members of the other House and a number of journalists, yet appointments to senior positions in IFI are still being manipulated.

I am concerned that we are talking about a delay for another six months to produce a report, despite the fact that the Department has information that calls into question the fairness and the processes in respect of the hiring of staff. That is the most serious allegation. It is about the coaching of individuals. It is about the availability of text messages and emails that show that individuals were being coached for positions by individuals at a senior level in IFI. That evidence is there in black and white in text messages and emails. That interference is, I understand, still going on. It is not fair, right or proper in any State agency. The Minister has indicated that he is taking a hands-off approach and has provided information to the Department, but, whether or not he knows, his Department knows and the new board, Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry, knows. This needs to be dealt with quickly. Six months is too late. I do not see any reason why this could not have been dealt with before Christmas, a long time before now. It needs to be gotten on top of.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Minister for being here. The debate has been a long time coming. I understand that he has a busy schedule and could not come before now. I acknowledge that Senator Kyne has done an enormous amount of work on this. I have subsequently been involved in this because staff and other individuals have contacted me and shared with me really disturbing information. There is a litany of failures, of which I know the Minister is fully aware. I will ask the Minister questions and put to him strong assertions on a number of issues. I will stop short of describing IFI as rotten and corrupt. Those words were used by other politicians; I will not use them. It is important to say clearly that inland fisheries are an integral part of the agricultural landscape and are closely linked with food production, water, land management, biodiversity and ecosystems.

Following the resignation of the board of IFI, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, removed the remaining board members on a no-fault basis. That is clear. The decision was taken due to, as the Department states in a formal release I have in front of me, the inability of IFI to carry out its functions effectively.

I will tell the Minister about a litany of problems of which, I am satisfied, he and his officials are fully aware. I have the documentation in front of me to support that.

Let us deal in a broad way with resignations from the board and internal disputes rife with allegations. Eighteen vehicles were uninsured, with one involved in a serious crash in County Donegal in 2021. There was an issue around IFI ownership of a property, Aasleagh Lodge, in County Mayo, and its use subsequently with the knowledge of some members of the board. There were funding issues around the dormant accounts and issues relating to the allocation of funding and the appropriateness of that allocation. Again, that was brought to the Minister's attention. There were disputes around HR, personnel and administration. There was harassment and systemic bullying. There were irregularities of internal processes.

Some of these issues have been dealt with in protected disclosures. My latest analysis of this is that there are up seven or eight protected disclosures of which the Minister and his Department are aware. I understand that the Minister informed the Cabinet because the resignations included that of the chairperson of IFI. He was unable to carry out his functions effectively. The Minister instructed Mr. Tom Barry and Mr. Séamus Neely, both former chief executives of local authorities, to prioritise consideration of the protected disclosures, and that is understandable. Preparation of a corporate governance review was also one of his requests.

I looked at the Government press releases on this and all the appointments to IFI over many years. I draw the Minister's attention to an announcement published on the Government website on Tuesday, 4 June 2019, regarding three appointments to the board of IFI. They were announced that day by the then Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Seán Canney. The press release stated that he had recently appointed Mr. Séamus Boland, Mr. Michael McGreal and Ms Marie Louise Heffernan to the board of Inland Fisheries Ireland. We know that two of them have subsequently resigned and that one was removed from office by the Minister. In welcoming these appointments at the time, the then Minister of State said: "These successful candidates will bring a wealth of experience and expertise to the board of IFI". The press release went on to state that Mr. Boland and Mr. McGreal in particular had areas of expertise in corporate governance, organisational development and change management and that Ms Heffernan had expertise in environmental and biodiversity matters. These were therefore eminently suitable people for the board and were rightly appointed to it. All three appointments were made, I have found out today from checking some facts, pursuant to section 12 of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010 and in accordance with State appointments guidelines. That is not always the case, but in these three cases it was.

What am I asking of the Minister? He is ultimately responsible. The question that remains outstanding, however, is as follows. Why, in his term of two and a half years as Minister, has he never sought to appoint anyone to the board? I understand that he might decide he has a hands-off view on this, but that is the question many people are asking. What is he doing about it? What has he not done about it? Why did he not exercise his obligations under the legislation to appoint new members to the board who he felt might be more appropriate? That is his prerogative. He did not exercise it and he is empowered under the legislation to do so. He did not do that, but perhaps he will have an opportunity to explain.

The Minister needs to insist and ensure that there is good corporate governance in this organisation under his remit. The oversight agreement and performance delivery agreement, which I have yet to see, require, under the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies, that an oversight agreement is drawn up between the Department and IFI. I ask him to look out for that and to familiarise himself with that. I want responsibility and accountability. I want an appropriate explanation of the allocations of the budgets and resources of IFI. That is what the people involved want, that is what the employees want and that is what they expect Deputy Eamon Ryan to drive as Minister with ultimate responsibility in this area.

I take it the Minister is familiar with the code of business conduct for the board of IFI. He should be if he is not. There is the issue of integrity, transparency and public concern. That is my role here, particularly today. There has been a loss of confidence in the board. There have been potential conflicts of interest, whether actual or perceived. Then, of course, there is the huge issue of the protected disclosures.

There is a lot in all that to go over in a few minutes. I ask the Minister to initiate an exit interview with all the directors who have resigned and to facilitate a position where each and every one of them can articulate their views. I do not expect him to come back here today with the detail of the questions I have asked. I do expect and respectfully ask him to come back with some sort of written engagement with Members at some point. He has said that he has to get out of here as he has a Cabinet subcommittee meeting to go to. I appreciate and respect that. Finally, I thank him for at last giving this matter the time in Seanad Éireann that it deserved.

Senator Paddy Burke

I welcome the Minister. I also welcome the opportunity to say a few words on this very serious situation. On a number of occasions, I had the privilege of being nominated to stand for the Seanad by the Central Fisheries Board and I represented it here. At the time, the central board was made up of regional boards. There were such boards in the north, the west, the south, the south east and the east. At that time, inland fishing tourism in Ireland was flourishing. Competitions were held in lakes and on rivers. As the Minister well knows, we have what are probably the best fishing lakes in Europe. The River Moy is the best salmon river in Europe. However, I have been talking to people in the tourism sector and fishing tourism is dead. There are very few involved in it and very few fishing tournaments are taking place. You have to ask why that is. I live quite close to a lake in Castlebar and I do not see any work, or very little work, being carried out. At that time, work was done on all the small tributaries into the rivers and lakes so that they could be used as spawning beds for fish. That was done every year. I do not see that work being carried out now. In all the years I have been in here, this is the worst case I have seen brought to my attention. A State body has never been reported to me in the fashion that this has been reported to me. Senator Kyne has ploughed a lone furrow on this matter for quite a long time, nearly 12 months now.

I feel very sorry for the board as well. The board members were exonerated by the Bradley report but, in the decision the Minister made, he felt he had no choice but to sack the board and put two ex-county managers, Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry, in place. What exactly are their functions? Are they the same functions the board had? Are they the people who will be handling protected disclosures? I got a letter from Mr. Griffin, the Secretary General, who said that an investigation will take place into the issues I wrote to him about, which related to Aasleagh Falls. The way the central board was looking after the falls was pathetic. It is a fabulous property. Mr. Griffin said that all of the matters I raised with him would be forwarded to an investigator. Who is the investigator? I got another letter which said that under the Protected Disclosures Act, it could be the Secretary General of the Department who would investigate disclosures or any other information. Will Mr. Barry, Mr. Neely or both of them be dealing with the protected disclosures? There is some ambiguity in the correspondence I have received with regard to who will carry out those investigations.

It is a very sad day for inland fisheries. They are a natural resource for the country. As I have said, we have the best fishing lakes and rivers but the whole thing is in turmoil. As people say, there is no smoke without fire. Senator Kyne has outlined the shenanigans going in with regard to interviews for jobs, coaching people for jobs within the system, showing favouritism and so forth. They have also been outlined by Senator Boyhan. Most of all, these shenanigans have been brought to our attention by the public, people working in the field and board members. Some sort of shenanigans must be going on with regard to one of our State's national resources. It is a fabulous resource. I know the Minister has the best interests of this sector at heart. I hope he will take a very firm hand in resolving this issue and that the board he will institute as a replacement will be a good board that will make sure everything will be dealt with in an efficient and straightforward fashion. If people have to lose jobs or be moved on as a consequence, those things will have to be dealt with because we have to act in the best interests of a natural resource in this country. I have no doubt that the Minister will act in that way and I hope he does so immediately because we cannot let this drag on. It should not drag on.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The Minister has asked to say a few words before he has to depart but I will need the agreement of the House for him to do so. The alternative is that we do not let him say anything and he just leaves. The Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, will then conclude the debate at the end. I am willing to let the Minister say something now if the House agrees. I will let the Minister say a few words and then he will have to leave. The two contributors who have not made a comment can then come in and the Minister of State may give a very brief summation at the end.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I thank the Acting Chairperson and I apologise. Dáil votes that were due to occur and changes to the Seanad schedule resulted in a clash. I am very conscious that the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth-----

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

We will blame the Lower House for all of it. Its votes were the issue.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----will be in a very difficult position because he has not been directly involved. He will certainly report back to me on what other Senators raise. Before I leave and hand over to the Minister of State, I will briefly respond to some of the points raised.

On Senator Kyne's comments, I thought our discussion on this in the Oireachtas committee was very useful and I am happy to follow on from that. However, I find myself in a position where I cannot really comment on the suggested reasons for any one board member leaving. It is a complex issue and quite a number resigned. I am reluctant to comment or engage in conjecture on the exact motive in each particular instance. As I have said, the board was removed on a no-fault basis. It is not my intention to question the motives of board members or anyone else.

On Senator Kyne's point regarding the change from regional fisheries offices to Inland Fisheries Ireland, I am going back in time now but, as I recall, cost was not the primary reason for that. It may have been a motive for some people but, to my mind, the reason for the establishment of the new authority was to get greater efficiencies, co-ordination, scale and expertise rather than to remove the boards as a cost-saving exercise. That was not the intention behind the original legislation.

With regard to the protected disclosures, I will commit to seeking to bring those to a conclusion within the six-month period, as I said in my opening comments. However, I will be honest again; I cannot possibly comment on the allegations the Senator made regarding an improper interview process or manipulation of that process. That is for Inland Fisheries Ireland and our Department to assess and manage. That will be done in a timely manner as part of the work we need to do on the review of corporate governance within the organisation.

Senator Boyhan listed a variety of matters that have been the subject of a lot of media commentary and some public commentary. I am reluctant to go into the details of these matters because part of the problem is that there has been a whirlpool of allegations of malpractice. As I have said, my job is to get a new board appointed and to manage the interim process in which the protected disclosures will be resolved and corporate governance reviewed. I did, as the Senator has said, look to make sure that was handled absolutely correctly in accordance with due process rather than presenting myself as judge and jury. I took a similar approach with regard to past board members. To answer the Senator's question, I was reluctant to appoint board members to a situation that was not functioning. That is why we appointed Conleth Bradley to carry out an assessment. We knew we had a problem and appointing people in such a non-functioning system would not necessarily have improved it. It would not have been fair to put any individual into a position when they might not be aware of the controversies raging within the organisation.

I absolutely accept what Senator Burke has said about us having had some of the best rivers and lakes for fishing but the reality and truth is that we have lost a lot of that.

We have gone from 500 pristine river systems down to 20. That may be part of the reason that in some places, we have seen a fall-off in angling tourism. We need to rectify and restore that. Inland Fisheries Ireland has a critical role in that regard. It is the canary in the mine for the lack of high-quality waters for salmonoid, trout, salmon, pike and other species. There is a mechanism for us to restore the pristine environment we had within my lifetime and that of the Senator. I have memories as a child of fishing right across the country. Compared with how they were then, they are effectively dead, which is the cornerstone of our problem. Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely will work collectively as a board to deal with protected disclosures. Some will be managed from within our Department and some directly from within IFI.

I accept the Senator's point that the key thing now is to do that work and appoint a new board. The joint committee and Departments will have a role in that. The way the IFI board was designed gives significant responsibilities to the Oireachtas committee and Departments to reflect the fact that this organisation is critical and having diverse views and a different pool of applicants going through different processes was appropriate. It is important that we conclude the reviews I mentioned into protected disclosures and corporate governance. We will then quickly appoint a new board. I believe Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry are doing a good job. Their information to me is that they are dealing with a professional organisation that is functioning but we need to make sure a new board is appointed so that it can look to the future rather than to the unfortunate past over the past year or two.

Apologies, Chair. I will-----

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I thank the Minister. To be fair, he has taken about 15 minutes more than he was supposed to. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, will cover for him adequately.

Senator Victor Boyhan

We will follow up with supplementary questions.

Senator Annie Hoey

Much of what needs to be said has been said. This is one of the few times when a topic has come up here that I have wished my dad was around so I could talk to him about it because he would have known every last inside piece of gossip about who was who, what was what and what was happening, and would have been able to tell me all the backstory that never makes it to the media. I was thinking I had better go-----

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

He could have enlightened us all.

Senator Annie Hoey

He would have known everything that maybe even the Minister himself would not have known, that could have happened in the background. He did a lot of work and, as a fisherman, often talked about Inland Fisheries Ireland and the various spats between anglers and other hijinks that fisherpeople would have got up to. It is fair to say that IFI has been hit by a string of controversies. When we look at the work that IFI does and that other Members have outlined, it has made a great contribution and is an integral part of our agricultural landscape. I often think of the organisation as being involved in our communities, getting young people involved and partnering with various groups. It is maybe not something that people traditionally think of when they think of IFI, but when I think of IFI, that is what I think of. It is a great shame that there has been a series of mismanagement issues, if I could put it so politely. I do not need to go through all of them. I know these issues have been largely resolved but there are still outstanding complaints about the treatment of staff and the behaviour of some staff outside work.

There were up to ten protected disclosures. Everyone here knows I take protected disclosures seriously. For people to go to that level speaks to the seriousness of what has been happening or allowed to happen within IFI, possibly for quite some time. I understand that criminal investigations have begun. I am sad to be standing here, saying all these things about Inland Fisheries Ireland, because of many people's vision of it. It has been said here that it is unusual, rare and alarming for such a body to have no current board. That speaks to the drastic seriousness of the situation. The Minister has left the Chamber and I do not want to blow smoke, but if that was a step that had to be taken, it speaks to the serious nature of what happened within it. It is disappointing that that had to happen. I keep saying it because I feel it is a huge disappointment.

It brings us to a stage where it is reasonable to say that there needs to be a full review of the functions of IFI. That full review is fully warranted. For the Minister to have taken such a step as to leave it without a board, and to bring in two people, we need to look at it. Does IFI have the capacity to do the work set out in the legislation? What dearth would there be if IFI ceased to function in its current format? I am not for one second suggesting that it should cease to function but there needs to be a serious review of the functions of Inland Fisheries Ireland.

I will not add much more because much has been said, but it is a great shame that we are having to have this conversation. I hope that a way forward is found and that a full board and functioning IFI can be found. I do not just think of it as part of our agricultural, ecological or biological landscape, or any other landscape, but I also think of the great community work that it does. Sometimes, we do not think of inland as going all the way into the middle of Ireland. Even around Dublin and other areas, it does a lot of work and has many volunteers. I would like to see the organisation fully reconstituted as it needs to be, with all of these controversies and issues being eliminated, so there is a fully functioning board in future and the important work can continue as necessary.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Minister of State. I welcome the Minister's comments just before he had to leave. Inland Fisheries Ireland's role is to protect, manage and conserve more than 74,000 km of river and 128,000 ha of lakes. It is an incredible amenity. I think of the operations teams. My thoughts are with the fisheries officers, environmental officers, inspectors, people involved in angling and the people who are working on the ground. Over the decades, they have done great work. Now the agency has this reputation due to the ill-governance and malfunctioning of the executive. It is shocking because it has impacted the reputation of an agency that people have worked for and have pride in, because they do so much work for us.

The area I am in has the River Suck, between Roscommon and Galway. It is the natural county boundary. My experience is of working locally with anglers in the Ballinasloe district. The work that impressed me, which was done to manage our waterways, involved IFI working with local anglers to ensure that angling could take place, to improve access to our rivers to make them safer, and working with the local community. That is what people on the ground in IFI who I know were doing. Senator Seán Kyne has told about this over recent months. The Minister has spoken on this and action has been taken and it is in the legal realm now. We need to see urgent action with the Public Appointments Service to put a board in place to manage the strategic direction and governance of IFI and to manage the reputation of this body, which is to market and promote so many things, especially tourism in the Hidden Heartlands area. The new board is to drive this agency forward. It does important work in Ireland. The Minister also has to ensure that we are dealing with the issues that have been raised by Senator Kyne and other Senators.

Many great things have been done by IFI and it is shocking to hear of this now. Action could have been taken six months ago to deal with this. My questions come down to the need for oversight of boards, governance measures, project management and the need to take action faster to reduce the kind of impact on a whole agency that we face now. IFI does important work on our inland fisheries and waterways and works with Waterways Ireland and local communities on the ground, including people who are anglers and love fishing and engaging with our waterways. Our local association, working with IFI, had funding to bring nursing home residents who live very close to the marina on a day out angling. That is the sort of work that gets done in our local areas. I call on the Minister to take urgent action to get the board in place. This should not have continued for this long.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The Minister used his speaking time but if the Minister of State wishes to make a few concluding remarks, I am sure the House would be happy to accommodate him. He should not feel obliged to do so either.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I heard the strength of feeling on this issue from all Senators. Senator Boyhan raised uninsured vehicles and other issues. These were dealt with by the board and reported to the Comptroller and Auditor General by the then chairperson, Mr. Fintan Gorman. The Minister has reported members to the board of IFI and asked the Public Appointments Service to appoint additional board members. I want to see responsibility and accountability. The Minister spoke about the governance of IFI and the requirements of the two senior civil servants who have been appointed to provide a review of the governance of the agency in advance of a new board being appointed.

Senator Burke said there was no smoke without fire. That is fair enough but there is also a presumption of innocence. We have to have due process here. When there is smoke, one investigates for a fire but one cannot convict someone for arson before starting. The Senator referred to the problems for fishing tourism. Let us be fair; the reason fishing tourism is almost gone is due to water quality, which has deteriorated. The EPA annual report states that only slightly more than half of surface waters - rivers, lakes, estuaries and coastal waters - are in satisfactory condition, meaning they are achieving good or high ecological status and are able to sustain healthy ecosystems for fish, insects and plants. We all know that this pollution and poor water quality is due to a combination of three main factors, namely, agricultural run-off, forestry and urban wastewater issues.

Senator Hoey spoke about she asked her father for the inside story and so on. As politicians, we all know that one of the most important things we do is talk to people and ask them what the story is. We do not find things out by reading them in documents, searching on the Internet or talking to our staff. We go out and talk to the person to find out what is really happening. As part of this, I spoke to some of the former Ministers with responsibility for this area. They all had the same look on their face. I do not know how to describe it but probably conveyed the message, "rather you than me". There has been a long series of controversies around this issue. As politicians, we deal with personal issues between people who are in dispute and controversies. It is our job to find resolutions and compromise that can work for everybody but sometimes that is really difficult. Many of us have served on difficult boards where personal issues do not converge and just become more and more difficult. That is my understanding, from the outside, of what was happening in this case. It is not something recent.

Senator Seán Kyne

The Minister of State should talk to the former board members too. That would be useful.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I completely agree. The Minister has asked IFI to refocus the organisation to protect habitats. The recent controversies have slowed the progress of this change in focus. The Minister is also very disappointed that this change of direction has not yet happened. He has spoken of how IFI needs to be a primary guardian of our waterways to improve habitats for fish and, thereafter, a sustainable rural economy based on pristine waters and high-value tourism.

To respond to Senator Dolan, the Public Appointments Service has already been asked to recruit and has started the process. The new board will need to be in place as soon as possible but subsequent to the completion of the review by the two retired civil servants.

I can tell from all the contributions that this is a very frustrating, difficult and long-running issue. As Members will understand, it is the subject of a number of inquires and protected disclosures. We have to follow due process. I cannot interfere in that process but I know there are significant resources, focus and attention on that. I am happy to keep Senators informed as we move through that process and also to speak to former board members and anyone else involved to get the proper picture.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Gerry Horkan)

When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Seán Kyne

Tomorrow at 9.30 a.m.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 8.57 p.m. go dtí 9.30 a.m., Dé Déardaoin, an 30 Márta 2023.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.57 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 March 2023.