It is great to have the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, here as the line Minister and I now call on Senator Doherty.
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Child Protection
I thank the Cathaoirleach and I wish everybody a good recess and break, as well as lots of work in their constituencies. I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, for coming here this morning.
Members are aware that we have two unanimously supported motions in support and on behalf of the victims of major sexual abuse and rape in St. John's Ambulance Ireland. I know the Minister has been very helpful, and they have met. I know all of these things but the frustrations of the victims are still very much paramount. Nothing has changed. The child protection issues that have been raised have not been resolved. The members of the board are still in situ, and all along, when we have engaged with the Minister, he told us that there was nothing really he could do other than support the victims and instruct the people within the organisation to do what is required of them, because we did not give those organisations State funding.
Last week, we discovered that we do give them State funding, and not small beans but enormous amounts of State funding. I am asking now to find out what the State funding is for, what Department it came from and why we did not know about this in the first instance. What are we going to do to resolve the child protection issues that still remain for the victims of St. John's Ambulance Ireland and all of the other children that the current crew has access to?
When Senator Doherty says it is no small beans, in 2018 it was €185,000. In 2019, it was €14,000. In 2020, it was €240,773, or 38% of the income of St. John's Ambulance Ireland for that year. In 2021 it was €286,800. We have a total in excess of €700,000 that the organisation has received from the State since 2018. While I suspect that some of the 2020 and 2021 figures are related to the Covid-19 pandemic, we are still not at that ten-month place where the 2022 figures are out yet, so we do not know what it got in that year. I sincerely hope it is not getting anything this year.
The report by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon revealed very serious incidents. Young people in the Kilmainham unit of this organisation were preyed upon by an individual. They were raped in the back of St. John's ambulances. It is not acceptable that the Minister can just say that it is not a body under the aegis of his Department. Technically, that is true, but "aegis" includes support. It was getting support from the Government, and has been getting it for a number of years, and that is only from the accounts that I could get access to and see for myself.
There is the role of Tusla in this, which borders on negligence insofar as it did not go into the teeth behind that safeguarding statement. It signed off on them until it was challenged repeatedly by the survivors. We have a failure of teeth in childcare, with regard to going in and actually inspecting. A recommendation is going to come from the childcare committee to say that this needs to be like to the Health and Safety Authority or the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, where they can actually go in and do inspections and look for evidence of adherence to safeguarding, not mere lip service.
All the while, the St. John's Ambulance Ireland has been putting it out that it gave an apology and was providing counselling support and therapy services when in actual fact, its attack dogs, in the course of any civil litigation, are going after, forensically analysing and intimidating and using their lawyers and the justice system to intimidate these survivors on a daily basis. They are sending a plethora of discovery motions and letters to them, wanting to know every intimate detail of the survivors' lives, and really lay it at their feet that they came from poverty and so they cannot be believed. That is not acceptable.
We need the State to stand up very strongly and make sure that, for a start, it does not get any more funding from us, and we need to unearth that we do have a responsibility. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is going back to review what it can do further in light of this, because this was brought to our attention by the survivors.
I want to thank the Senators for bringing attention to this important issue today, and it is in the context of the motion brought by the then Leader of the Seanad a number of months ago. In March 2023, I informed this House that as St. John's Ambulance Ireland is an independent organisation, it does not receive funding from Tusla or the Government. Although it remains my understanding that St. John's Ambulance is not the recipient of regular funding under Departmental funding schemes, it has come to my attention this week that it received funding relief under two bespoke Covid-19 pandemic-related support schemes, namely, the employee wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, overseen by Revenue, and the Covid-19 stability fund for community and voluntary, charity and social enterprises, overseen by the Department of Rural and Community Development.
Earlier this week, I asked officials in my Department to make contact with the Departments of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and Rural and Community Development, St. John's Ambulance Ireland and the Charities Regulator to seek urgent clarity on these matters. The EWSS was a scheme designed to financially support employers and employees during the restrictions imposed in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. It was open to employers who file their payroll submissions electronically through the Revenue online services. I am informed that St. John's Ambulance Ireland received funding relief of €240,773 in 2020, and €286,800 in 2021.
In addition, my officials have checked other Covid-19 relief schemes which were open to all voluntary organisations during the pandemic and were provided by the Department of Rural and Community Development under the Covid-19 stability fund. St. John Ambulance Ireland is listed as a grantee on this scheme, corresponding to a 2020 allocation of €290,500 and a 2021 allocation of €100,000.
St. John Ambulance Ireland, as an employer and similar to other employers in the State, was eligible to apply to the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, scheme operated by Revenue to provide for its employees who were unable to attend workplaces during restrictions put in place due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
In addition, as a voluntary organisation, St. John Ambulance applied for the Covid-19 stability fund scheme. In the emergency context of that time, both schemes operated on a principle of providing critical financial supports swiftly to the broadest possible number of recipients in line with their respective terms and conditions.
The Charities Regulatory Authority is Ireland's statutory regulator for charitable organisations, including St. John Ambulance. It remains the case that I, as Minister, do not have a role in the governance or funding of St. John Ambulance. However, it is clear now that the information in my possession when I previously addressed this House on this matter was not accurate at the time. This is no doubt a source of frustration and anger for Senators and survivors. It is also a source of frustration and anger for me.
I am informed that the information shared today covers the full extent of public funding awarded in the last three years. Officials are continuing their engagements across government, however, and I will advise the House if further financial supports were provided. I note the two figures that Senator Seery Kearney mentioned in respect of 2018 and 2019.
Senator Doherty made the point in terms of the ongoing work to ensure the implementation of the Shannon report. My officials continue to engage with St. John Ambulance on this. I met with one survivor on 15 June and advised him on our ongoing efforts to ensure the implementation of all elements.
Following on from that and from our continuous engagement, we recently wrote to St. John Ambulance seeking an update on the low uptake of the counselling support services Senator Seery Kearney mentioned and an update on the appointment of the national child safeguarding or compliance officer, and also to seek clarity on the commitment to undertake the replacement of board members.
I appreciate the position the Minister is in. This is not about him per se. However, the two outstanding years that had nothing to do with Covid, 2018 and 2019, come to the sum total of €200,000. I would be very grateful because the Minister would find out about this far quicker than Senator Seery Kearney and I would.
I had the privilege of being Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection at the time we established the EWSS. Since then, probably for approximately two years afterwards, I spent an awful lot of my time trying to fight and help people to get access to the 80% of their salary to which they were entitled under the EWSS.
Yet, the Minister is telling me that with two employees, because that is all it has on its books, in 2021, St. John Ambulance Ireland got €286,800 under the EWSS and in 2020, it got €240,773. It does not add up. For the record of the House, I will instigate that the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform ask for a review with the Revenue Commissioners today to find out how such enormous amounts of money were given to an organisation that had two full-time employees during Covid-19 when the rest of the country had to struggle.
When an organisation makes public statements of apology to survivors but privately behaves completely differently, why on earth would they take up a counselling service provided by that organisation? The counselling services needed to be provided by the State.
Counselling services was one of the issues we discussed when I met one of the survivors recently. We have written to St. John Ambulance in terms of having an independent third party through which a request for counselling could go, rather than going through the organisation. The Senator is absolutely right in terms of the aggressive approach that has been adopted. It is hugely unlikely that anyone is going to take it up. We have been advising them to obtain a third party through which any contacts for counselling can be undertaken.
We will come back to Senator Doherty about those two years. I take her point in terms of the EWSS payments. As I said, we have also been in touch with the Charities Regulator. We will continue our engagement in terms of the sums at which we are looking and the totality from the two different funding streams, and how that matches or otherwise with the accounts for 2020 and 2021 we have seen in respect of the overall amounts.
I thank the Minister.
Defective Building Materials
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, to the House. I thank him for coming in to deal with this issue, which falls clearly, of course, within his brief.
I will be brief and concise. The Minister of State will be familiar with the Not Our Fault campaign that has been running. At the very outset, I salute the people involved in this campaign. These people have been affected by homes that are defective with regard to fire issues or construction defaults. They are the very people who feel totally abandoned by the Government. They feel the Government has reneged on its commitments and promises to get them out of the living hell they have had to endure both day and night. It is a living hell.
I acknowledge that Senator Seery Kearney held a meeting in the audiovisual room recently. She invited those people in and I met many of them. I was shocked to hear story after story, testament after testament, of what these people have had to endure.
On 18 January 2023, the Government announced a list of supports that would be available to address some of these issues. They involved emergency funding, which has not yet been delivered, interim measures of which there has been nothing yet and no delivery and insurance support of which there has been nothing and no delivery. To date, the Minister of State's Department and the Government have delivered nothing for these 100,000 affected homeowners. This is what they assert and this is what they have asked me to pursue with the Minister of State today.
The families involved are undergoing stress and pressure every day from management companies seeking to collect levies that were applied against them to carry out remediation works that have nothing to do with them. They do not have anything to do with them. They have no responsibility and it is not their fault. The Government promised that it would provide funds. What has happened to this promise? I hope the Minister of State can shed some light on all that today.
I understand that people are receiving daily solicitors' letters or suggestions that they will be called to give court appearances on dates to deal with something that is not their fault. They have no responsibility with regard to these matters. On behalf of these people, I seek reassurances today from the Minister of State.
The people involved need emergency funding, as promised, to get some of the work started in order that they can make these developments safe enough to continue to live in. I visited them and they are appalling. They are fire hazards. In some cases, people cannot even get insurance. They cannot afford property maintenance. It is a living nightmare and a living hell for these people.
I do not want to overstate the case, but they feel abandoned and let down. There is mixed communication. I want to hear from the Minister of State about what is happening, not what is happening next month or next year, but what is happening now. They are tuned in today because I alerted them to the fact. I sent the press release that was issued by the Oireachtas today and the link to this particular Commencement matter. It is important that when we stand up here and advocate for people, we do it well and robustly. To be fair to the Minister of State, I know he is committed to addressing the issue, and that it is a big, complex issue.
I want some sort of reassurance today and a timeline for how the Government will deliver for the people involved.
I thank the Senator for raising this extremely important issue, which provides me with the opportunity to update the Seanad on the matter. I offer an assurance to the Seanad and to the homeowners and residents of the many apartments and duplexes with defects that we are absolutely committed to resolving it. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and I fully acknowledge the stress that is caused when defects arise in people's homes.
Since the receipt of Government approval in January of this year to draft legislation to establish supports for the remediation of defects, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has been working to progress the various programmes of work that are required to place the remediation scheme on a statutory footing. As the Senator knows, a key aspect of this work is the development of a code of practice, in the context of the Fire Services Acts, to provide guidance to relevant professionals, including guidance on interim safety measures. The development of this code of practice was a key recommendation of the working group the Minister established to examine defects in housing. The publication of the code is a matter of priority and it is imminent. It is a key feature on which the operation of the remediation scheme will be based. It will support the development of a reasonable and practicable approach to resolving fire safety defects, with the aim of ensuring a consistent approach nationwide to remediation. As I said, work on the code of practice is nearing completion and the Minister expects to be able to publish it shortly.
The code has been drafted in consultation with industry professionals, local authority fire services and the Housing Agency. The scheme will incorporate a means or methodology, based on the code of practice, for prioritising the allocation and nature of support and funding, including the funding of interim measures to ensure the highest-risk buildings are first to be supported. In order to ensure important life-safety works are not paused, remediation works related to fire safety defects, entered into or commenced from 18 January 2023, will form part of the remediation scheme, subject to terms and conditions. The details of this process are being worked out as a priority, in parallel with the development of the code of practice.
Work is under way to draft the required legislation. As the Senator is no doubt aware, the totality of work includes a number of components, that is, the code of practice, the interim measures and the legislation underpinning the overall scheme. The work under way includes the scope, eligibility and conditions of the remediation scheme. While the Minister is working on the development of the scheme as a matter of priority, sufficient time is required to draft the legislation to ensure the scheme is fit for purpose, provides value for money and contains appropriate oversight and governance measures. The scheme will be administered by the Housing Agency on a nationwide basis. Interaction and interdependency with local authority fire services and others must be considered, with a need to ensure the remediation of fire safety defects is carried out to the satisfaction of the local authority fire services. An advice and information service and portal within the Housing Agency is in the process of being established.
I appreciate the stress this issue is causing for homeowners and residents. The code of practice is the key document for the remediation of fire safety defects. A commitment has been given in respect of spending incurred since 18 January. The code will be published very shortly. I recognise that homeowners require certainty. The Minster, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is fully committed to getting the scheme up and running as quickly as possible.
There is no reassurance in anything the Minister of State has said. We have heard all of it before. He said the Minister is working on developing a scheme "as a matter of priority" and he needs "sufficient time" to do so. The Minister of State is not in a position to tell us anything. He has given us no timelines. He has told us the Minister is working on a scheme. The Houses go into recess today for two months. We will not have an opportunity during that time to question any Minister. He made reference to a scheme and a code of practice being imminent. All the Minister of State has said today is that the Department is working on a code of practice and the Minister needs time to bring in the legislation. There is no solace offered to the people affected.
Will the Minister of State take what I have said back to his colleagues? The people listening to the discussion this morning expected to hear something about what is happening with emergency funding, what interim measures there will be and what insurance support will be provided. Those are the three asks. The Minister of State has shared none of that information with us. I respect him and his position and it is clearly the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who is taking responsibility for this response. There is nothing in it. We are told the Minister is working on legislation and a code but we are given no timelines for delivery. It is most unsatisfactory and most disappointing.
I understand the frustration of the homeowners. I want to offer reassurance to them, Senator Boyhan and the many public representatives in this Chamber and in the Dáil Chamber. As for the facts, the Government has approved the scheme, which requires to be underpinned by legislation. We want legislation that is fit for purpose. Second, we have committed that in terms of fire safety defects that have arisen, the works may commence from 18 January 2023 and will be covered. I have given the Senator a commitment that the code of practice will be published very shortly. It is imminent. That code of practice will provide certainty to professionals as to what exactly is involved regarding fire safety. We must make these buildings safe.
I will take the other matters the Senator raised back to the Minister and the officials. We really want to get a scheme up and running but it must be fit for purpose. It is all about ensuring people can get their homes back into the order in which they purchased them.
Housing Provision
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, for coming to the House. I would love to see the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, coming here some time to take questions on housing. I am afraid the Minister of State is the fall guy. I am sure the Minister is busy.
A total of 15% of our population are over 65 years of age. I regularly receive telephone calls from older people living in isolation and seeking home help provision, not because they are sick but because they are lonely. Home help is not available on those grounds. I am involved in a housing association with an amazing man called Frank Gunter, my praise for whom I want to put on the record. Turning 81 this year, he has pioneered housing provision in our village of Inagh and has now linked up with a great housing association called Inis Housing to look at the needs of older people. He has already managed to house 12 older people in Inagh. I know those people. I visited them every day during the lockdowns to deliver water. It has made a huge difference to their lives to be living in the village and able to walk to the shop.
Separate to that, Frank Gunter and the brilliant people in Inis Housing did a survey of older people in north Clare, which found that hundreds of them would happily downsize if given the opportunity to do so. They are rattling around on their own in big houses, which they must maintain and heat. Some of them are lonely because they used to have full houses. Not everybody wants to move out of his or her house and that is fine. However, there are older people who might like to downsize and move out of rural isolation and into their local village or town, where they can participate in their community instead of having to figure out how they will get there. As we all know, rural transport is great from village to village with the Local Link service, but it does not, for the most part, get people from door to door. Older people cannot always physically walk or cycle to where they want to go. That is not an option for them.
I have been thinking a lot about the situation of older people based on what I see in rural Ireland when I canvass there. I meet many people who live on their own in the middle of nowhere. In the old days, there were big families, with loads of people with all the time in the world to call in on older people and do all the bothántaíocht and all of that. Those days are gone. People are very busy all the time and I acknowledge some of them are great with their neighbours. I recall, however, approximately ten years ago, there was an old man living next to me. I found him in his home when he had been dead for four days. That is a perfect example of how we are failing our older people. By 2050, one in four of us will be over 65. This is a huge issue.
When the housing association in which I am involved sought planning permission recently to turn a large and lovely old convent that is currently an eyesore into 30 independent living spaces, we were told we could only build 12 because the need was not there for more. There is something wrong with this process. That is what the director of services had down on her official needs assessment or whatever it was. What is being done to provide such housing for older people? The director of services said in this instance that the need was not there, going on the figures she had. We were told we could build 12 units, when we know we could do with hundreds.
Is it somebody in the Department's job, or ideally the job of a whole team, to think about giving our older population opportunities to downsize? We know there is a housing shortage. Maybe those older people could sell the house to a family. We could bring families into those towns and villages. I am not talking about shoving them into horrible places. We have good practice and there are good designs. There are good examples, including a great example in the village of Kilmaley, an amazing place for older people. We have good independent living in Inagh as well. It can be done well, but I worry when we are told permission will not be given for 30 units because only 12 are needed. I do not think this is the local authority’s fault. Maybe there is a wider issue. There was no question on this in the census, for example. Maybe we need to look at that. When we get those data, we may realise how vital it is that we start building housing for older people, especially in places where we want to do up big old buildings that are eyesores. We have a company, a voluntary organisation, that wants to do this but is it Frank Gunter’s job, at the age of 80, to be driving this project? Surely to God it is the job of someone in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to drive this and assist people such as Mr. Gunter who is a hero in our community.
I thank the Senator for raising this important issue and allowing me an opportunity to provide an update. Frank Gunter sounds like an incredible man. I have not met him but he lays claim that you are only as young as you feel. He is obviously very energetic, which is good to hear.
He runs every day.
At what age?
He is 80.
My God, he is a lesson to anyone.
He is an inspiration.
Yes. I will outline the current position. The Senator raises an important point. In my role, the issue of providing housing for older people in an area has come up over the years.
Under action 6.3 of Housing for All, local authorities have been mandated to consider the housing needs of older people through the housing need and demand assessment, HNDA, framework and to feed this into their housing strategy as part of their development plan process. The HNDA framework assists local authorities to develop long-term views of housing need and demand, including estimating the needs of older people in the local authority area. The HNDA provides a robust evidence base to support decisions about housing supply investment and housing-related services that inform a national housing profile. Guidance on the preparation of a HNDA assessment was published by the Department in April 2021 together with a HNDA tool to estimate the need according to tenure type.
Section 4 of the HNDA framework includes a requirement for local authorities to assess the need for specialist provision for housing requiring specific solutions suited to specific needs, including for older people. The framework recommends that local authorities examine a number of data sources, which brings us back to the Senator's point, to estimate the level of need expected to arise over the period of the HNDA. Many of the relevant data sources in respect of older people are published on the HNDA data sources page on the website, including data relating to housing adaptation grants and ESRI population projections, allowing local authorities to understand the age profile of residents at that time.
More granular information on the housing needs of older people is available at local level through age-friendly technical advisers, of whom there are 31. For the past two or three years, every local authority has had an age-friendly technical adviser. Their input into housing of older people, including in relation to forward planning through the housing strategy, provides improved data on this group. Age Friendly Ireland also has an age-friendly officer in each local authority. The Department will continue to work to ensure all local authorities appropriately assess the needs of older people in any area.
What are the changes this year? We have a new census. We intend to review the HDNA framework, including the tool and underlying demographics, income, housing and rental price scenarios and assumptions this year, when the detailed census becomes available. As a critical element of this work, the ESRI will update its research on structural housing demand. It is expected the work will be completed towards the end of this year.
We are doing a revised national planning framework. It will be approved by the Government by May next year. I am involved with our advisory group on that. It will allow for the update of the HNDA. There are data sources. We are conscious of the point the Senator makes and are looking to upgrade how the housing needs assessment works against the background of the new census results and the revised national planning framework.
Our older people have served the country the longest. They seem to be falling between the cracks when it comes to being dealt with properly. I have looked up the data the Minister of State referred to and that is how I know that one in seven of the population is over 65 and one in four will be over 65 in 2050. From talking to people on the ground and from phone calls I receive, I know hundreds of older people in every county would love to downsize, if they had the choice, and move into their local village or town. This would also save the State money and take pressure off nursing homes. No old person wants to be in a nursing home and old people would avoid them for much longer if they could live independently in a small town or village. That would also cost less than it costs to run a big house.
I thank the Minister of State for the timeline of some kind but it will take someone like him to drive it because the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has to cover all aspects of housing. Somebody has to think about older people and housing. We would also create many family homes. If we take care of our older people first, it will be part of the solution to the housing crisis. We should have targets for local authorities based on statistics, rather than leaving it haphazardly to some local authorities to take the issue seriously while others do not. We are doing well on social housing targets. There are many good grants and lots of people get them for new windows and upgrading older houses but we need to address this serious issue. Our older people deserve it. Having served their country and worked the longest, they need this.
I thank the Senator for raising this important matter and I see her genuine personal interest in it. It is very much in her local community.
The annual summary of social housing assessments also provides valuable data as it counts the numbers of persons aged over 60 and 70, which the Senator referred to, who have been assessed as eligible for social housing supports. The summary further classifies those persons in these age groups who are over 65 and require specialist older persons’ housing. The new census and national planning framework, which we are revising and updating, provide a context in which we will review the HNDA. We have to have an integrated model. It may be that people want to live in their homes. It may be, in terms of local authorities, a matter of rightsizing, which we want to encourage so people can move to a smaller house. We are committed to housing adaptation grants. We have a review under way. People are now living longer, thankfully, so we have to ensure they live in circumstances where they have a good quality of life.
I amplify the compliments Senator Garvey paid to Frank Gunter. I know Mr. Gunter and everything the Senator said about him is true.
I welcome two guests in the Gallery, Sasha Cannonkadu and Zara Carlyle, who are both fifth-year students. Sasha’s mother is a Fine Gael councillor, Punam Rane. I have no doubt, having engaged with and spoken to these two young people, that our future as a country is in safe hands.
Where are they from?
They are from Blanchardstown and Clontarf.
Parking Provision
I thank the Minister of State for being here to take this issue. As chair of the all-party group on dementia, I have been working closely with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland on a number of projects that impact the lives of people with dementia and their families.
One area that we have been co-operating on is the potential for the roll-out of the blue badge scheme, which is the European pass for those who have severe mobility issues or who are blind to be able to access what we call the wheelchair parking spots, being rolled out to people with dementia and their families. As we know, this is a national arrangement of parking concessions for disabled and blind people. It is designed to give them the ability to park close to the facilities and the services they need.
Under the scheme, the disabled parking cards, the blue badges, are issued by the Irish Wheelchair Association and the Disabled Drivers Association of Ireland on behalf of the Department of Transport. It is an important badge. People who are primary medical certificate holders or registered blind are automatically eligible to avail of it. People who are neither holders of the private medical certificate or registered blind are required to have their form completed by a certified medical practitioner. We know that the medical criteria for use of the permit are strict. I agree with that and think it is important that they are strict.
I am going to make a case for another group of people. Before I make that case, I want to mention that I was at a meeting last night organised by the Fianna Fáil disability group with the Irish Wheelchair Association. Several people present spoke about an unfortunate, sad fact that makes me really angry, which is that able-bodied people are using wheelchair spots to park. It is just shocking. I know awareness schemes are rolled out every so often, such as Make Way Day. Obviously there are fines but I think we need to do more. Shame on anybody who uses a wheelchair parking space when it is not designated for them.
Regarding those who have dementia or Alzheimer's disease, minimal walking distance and familiarity are key factors in enabling people with Alzheimer's disease to access a facility or service safely and with ease and comfort. As such, the main benefit would be to the individual, with improved access to key services as well as to leisure and social activities, which are essential in stimulating the mind and slowing down the progression of the disease. It would also help to alleviate the pressure on carers and family members.
The UK did research on this to evaluate eligibility for parking concessions for five main groups of people, including people with dementia. It introduced this in 2018. It has been really successful. Every day in my office and in my role as Chair of the committee, I deal with people who are living in incredibly challenging and difficult situations, whether they are living with dementia or caring for and supporting their loved ones to remain living as independently as possible in their own home. It is stressful and upsetting. Sometimes, the small things can make a huge difference. In many cases, we are dealing with elderly and vulnerable people. It is important to make their lives less full of hassle and stress.
I met the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, about this before. Does the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, have an update?
I thank the Senator for raising a very important issue and for the great work she does as chair of the Oireachtas committee on dementia.
I welcome Sasha and Zara, who are visiting with Senator Conway. It is great to see them both. I think Sasha is continuing her mother's tradition, so well done.
I thank Senator O'Loughlin for raising this important issue. Before I go into the substance of the response, I agree with her on it being appalling that people who are not disabled are parking in disabled parking spots. The Senator is probably aware that there is a fixed fine of €150 and if people abuse the permit, there is a fixed fine of €200. However, it should not be happening. It is morally dreadful. They are there for a purpose. As I say, they are a scarce resource and should be valued. I want to put on the record that they should be honoured.
I am taking this Commencement matter on behalf of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan. As background, the disabled parking scheme operates by segregating a proportion of public parking bays for the use of disabled parking permit holders. The Senator will appreciate that it only works on public roads and does not apply on private property. These permits, also known as European parking cards or disabled parking badges, the blue badge scheme, are currently available to people living in Ireland whose mobility is severely and permanently restricted, whether they are drivers or passengers.
The intention of the permit, and of the disabled parking scheme more generally, is to provide access to parking bays of sufficient size in close proximity to important services such as post offices, banks, pharmacies and shops for people for whom access to such services would be denied if they could not park and disembark either because of the size of the parking bay or because they could not park within a short distance of a service because of their limited mobility.
As the House is aware, drivers and passengers with various form of cognitive impairment, including dementia, do not qualify for the permit. This is because the disabled parking permit is not aimed at disabled applicants in general, but is in fact specifically designed for people with impaired mobility, as this is the cohort most directly disadvantaged by inaccessible parking spaces that are too far away from their destination, or standard parking spaces that are too small to facilitate safe exit from the vehicle with a wheelchair, walking aid or oxygen equipment. That does not in any way take away from the point the Senator raises about people with dementia.
In 2010, the Department of Transport conducted a review of the disabled parking scheme in consultation with various stakeholders. One of the central issues examined in the course of this review was eligibility for the scheme. Disability groups in particular were unhappy at the fact that some people were being issued with disabled parking permits because they had particular medical conditions rather than an actual mobility impairment. As a result of the review the scheme was revised so that permits are now given on the basis of mobility impairment rather than the diagnosis of a particular condition or illness. This is in line with the original intention of the scheme and prioritises accessible parking for those who need it the most.
Senators may be interested to know that the Department of Transport is currently undertaking a fresh review of the disabled parking scheme, consisting of a thorough mapping of the present operation of the scheme, an analysis of the relevant legislative basis and a targeted stakeholder consultation. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, has confirmed that permit eligibility will be among the matters to be considered in close detail.
I know the Senator raised a pilot scheme which is in operation in the UK. That could feed into the review. The key thing is that a review is under way. I will take back to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the point the Senator raised about people with dementia. There is now a formal review in place. It is something that the dementia group should be involved in and we will take it back to the Minister, Deputy Ryan.
I thank the Minister of State for his positive response and for his understanding of the situation. I appreciate that the Department of Transport is currently undertaking a fresh review of the disabled parking scheme and looking at a thorough mapping of the present operation, and analysing and doing a targeted stakeholder consultation. I am pleased that Indecon has taken this on. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that the Alzheimer Society of Ireland is included as a stakeholder for this. I am pleased to hear the Minister of State say that permit eligibility will be among the matters to be considered in close detail. I appreciate that consideration has to be given to the fact that disabled parking spaces are a limited resource and need to be managed in such a way that they are available for those who need them. I accept that. I appreciate the intention of the Department and the Minister.
Do we have a timeline for when the Indecon report will be ready?
I will also offer a suggestion. This scheme was fully brought into the UK in 2018. I would be more than happy for a pilot scheme to be run in Kildare as part of Indecon's report.
I again thank the Senator for raising this important issue. The Department of Transport, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and I are fully aware of the distress associated with the complex and everyday challenges faced by people with dementia and their families and carers. The Minister fully appreciates that a dementia diagnosis requires a fundamental renegotiation of how individuals engage with the world around them and acknowledges that driving and parking come with a set of challenges.
The Senator raised a couple of points. I do not have a timeframe for the report. The critical thing is that it will be comprehensive. I will go back with the message that the Alzheimer Society of Ireland should be included as part of the review. I note the point the Senator made about Kildare. I have no doubt that is a matter she can take up with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan. The key thing is that a formal review is under way. That will allow consideration of all matters, including those relating to people with dementia. I thank the Senator for raising the matter.
Social Welfare Eligibility
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, for coming to the House to address my issue. My question is for the Minister for Social Protection and relates to means testing and the ongoing review. Means testing is necessary for many payments in the social welfare system. It applies for carers, people on jobseeker's allowance and pensioners. A man came to me recently and told me that he downsized and bought an apartment in a seaside area, which is taken as capital even though he does not let it and uses it himself. The lady in the household does not qualify for a pension. The pensioner in question is still working part time and is not entitled to a claim for a dependent other, namely, his wife. Their means are going down quite a bit. Many couples find themselves in such a situation.
I had a group of carers in Leinster House recently, two of whom told me they gave up their full-time jobs to look after their partners. They are in receipt of no payment at all because they have a small private pension from the jobs they were in previously. The bottom line is that the carers looking after people at home are saving the State money. The situation needs to be reconsidered in the light of the provision of care these people give and the money they save the State. There are also considerations in respect of longevity. People who are cared for at home live longer. They receive loving care from their loved ones.
There are different means tests for the lone parent allowance and the working family payment. There needs to be some sort of regulation brought into means testing. There is a thorough review going on in the Department at the moment. I am looking for an update on that review.
I welcome Sasha Cannonkadu and Zara Carlyle to the Gallery. I know Sasha's mum very well and spoke to her only last night. They are very welcome and it is good to see them here. I know they will both be facing into the leaving certificate next year so I wish them luck.
I thank the Senator for raising this important issue. She mentioned carers, who provide phenomenal work for society and, more particularly, for their families and loved ones. I will give some background. I am going to read from the conclusion of my notes and work backwards. As the Senator has highlighted, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, has asked her officials to examine the various elements of means tests in place across schemes in the Department, to review the situation on a holistic basis and to provide a report later this year. I expect the report to be available by the end of 2023. The Senator will appreciate it is a complex piece of work. It is expected to be completed in the fourth quarter of this year.
I am obviously taking this matter on the behalf of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. As the Senator will be aware, applicants for social assistance payments are means tested in the main. Some are not but in the main, they are means tested. A means test is a way of checking if a claimant has enough financial resources to support themselves and determine what amount of social assistance payment, if any, they may qualify for. The means test allows us to target resources to those who need them most.
A maximum rate is payable where a person has limited or no means and tapering applies to the rate payable to those with modest or more substantial means. This is because there is an expectation that those with resources can at least partly contribute towards supporting themselves.
Means tests in the Department of Social Protection are kept under regular review and a number of significant changes have been made in recent years. In particular, a number of changes to means testing have been introduced, including providing for higher income disregards. A comprehensive and substantive review is currently under way.
Employment is the best way out of poverty for most people. Therefore, means tests aim to achieve a balance between ensuring resources are targeted towards those with the greatest need while supporting people to take up employment opportunities. There are categories of people, including carers, who have unique situations. That is something we must acknowledge.
On foot of the commitment in the programme for Government and in the Rural Development Policy 2021-2025, the Department of Social Protection reviewed the means assessment disregards for farm assist. One of the key recommendations of the report was to provide for an extensive expansion to the list of agri-environmental schemes that qualify for a disregard, a policy which was introduced with effect from June last year.
As part of budget 2023, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, increased the disregard from these agri-environmental schemes from €2,540 to €5,000. Several measures which aim to encourage and support people with disabilities to pursue their employment goals were also introduced. Those included a higher earnings disregard for disability allowance and blind pension. Important changes in the means test for fuel allowance which significantly broaden eligibility for the scheme were also implemented this year.
Over many years, the means tests of schemes have diverged and subtle differences have been introduced across different schemes. As a result, the means area is complex and can, at times, be hard to communicate.
I want to deal with the specific issue raised by the Senator. For most social assistance schemes, the first €20,000 of capital is fully disregarded. The next €10,000 is assessed at €1 per €1,000. The next €10,000 is assessed at €2 per €1,000, with the remainder assessed at €4 per €10,000. For disability allowance and carer's allowance, the first €50,000 of capital is fully disregarded. The capital disregard for disability allowance was increased to €50,000 in 2007. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, increased the carer's allowance disregard in 2022. The points raised by the Senator are very important. The substantive and comprehensive review she noted is now taking place. We expect it to be fully completed by the officials in the Department of Social Protection by the fourth quarter of this year.
I thank the Minister of State. I understand there is a comprehensive review going on. There are many key areas. I welcome the fact that the Minister and the Department have made an awful lot of changes, especially around agricultural supports. Farmers often must have a second job to compensate. I believe those changes have been welcomed. I also acknowledge the changes around disability. However, there are a couple of small areas that always seem to fall through the net. Many people are slightly over the thresholds. I believe there must be a degree of flexibility in assessments of means. I met somebody recently who was only a couple of euro over the thresholds and failed to get support. That person's family is supporting them. I believe there must be a degree of flexibility and I hope such flexibility is brought into this review. I understand the review is coming at the end of the year and I look forward to the report.
I again thank Senator Maria Byrne for raising this very important point. As she is probably aware, the Department reviews and changes means tests on an ongoing basis. Over the last three budgets, changes have been introduced to the means test for the fuel allowance, disability allowance, working family payment, farm assist, carer's allowance, blind pension and the one-parent family payment. Budget 2022 provided for an increase to €50,000 in the disregard under the carer's allowance scheme. The weekly income thresholds for carer's allowance increased to €350 for a single person and €750 for a couple. More work remains to be done by the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, to support people in receipt of social welfare in various areas.
As I stated, more generally the Minister introduced new means disregards across all means assessments for those people renting a room in their own home to help with accommodation availability. Officials in the Department are examining means testing across a wide range of departmental schemes. This is obviously a significant undertaking given the range of schemes and the variance between the means tests, particularly when examined in the context of a range of household types. The intent of this examination is to consider the principles behind the means tests and consider design approaches for means tests which reflect these principles. Officials will also engage with external stakeholders, including at the Department’s pre-budget forum, which is being held with NGOs next week, to seek wider views on means testing.
As I stated, means testing is kept under constant review for all schemes. Departmental officials will continue to work on the means review and the intention is that the report of this review will be provided by quarter 4 of this year.
I sincerely thank the Minister of State for giving his time this morning to respond to the Commencement matters. It is much appreciated by the House.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.32 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 10.32 a.m. and resumed at 11 a.m.