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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Oct 2023

Vol. 296 No. 5

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

School Textbooks

I welcome the Minister of State. I raise the issue because we are at the start of a school year. I raised the issue last year as well and said I was absolutely delighted that costs for school books in primary school have been taken away from parents. It should be the same across the entire school system. However, my major concern is that an industry developed around school books and the tab for that industry is now being picked up by the State. There is a cost element of school books but there is also a pollution element. We know that hundreds of thousands of books are dumped at the end of the school year. Should a new book be needed at the end of every year? Should siblings not be able to pass down their books? If we are going to take the step of providing free books, we need to put in place a system in which that is not abused. I know, for instance, that Eason's profits went down significantly with this new approach to school books in which the State picks up the tab because of the amount of money paid by parents or the State for these books. I ask that a system be put in place across all schools that they do not need new books on the curriculum unless there is a major change in the curriculum, which happens very rarely, to be honest, to prevent this kind of abuse of a system. I will not go on about it. The Minister of State has the general gist. I could provide loads of facts and statistics on the issue but, intuitively, we all know what the problem is. The whole system last year was not well thought through. It is the same thing with school transport. Just providing something for free does not address the underlying issue that we have a system in which each school gets to decide what school books are put on the curriculum. The majority of schools - I think it is something like 96% of them - offer a rental scheme in the school but that becomes defunct if you provide free books. Where is the environmental aspect? If people feel they can rent a book from a school or can get a free book, they will probably get the free book and then you are still left with the environmental cost of that.

In general, the principle is good but we need the policy to back it up. Unfortunately, the way in which our school system has developed is circular and involves individual schools making decisions. It is our job as policymakers to put a more generalised system in place to make sure every school is doing the same thing when it comes to something as fundamental as the environment.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. It is universally agreed that it is a good idea to try to reduce the cost for parents of their children attending school and to treat all families, or nearly all families, equally. Many in my constituency are not included in the scheme, but we are talking here about all of the rest of them. The Senator raised important issues. I do not think there are abuses, to be honest. It is about bedding in a brand-new policy and making sure it works. The Department has set guidance in relation to the free primary school book scheme which requests that schools make every effort to reduce wastage. The school books remain the property of the school and are on loan to the pupils for the duration of the year. They can consist of both new and second-hand school books. Pupils are supposed to retain the school books for one year and then return them to school for reuse in the following year. The Senator is right - you do not need to have a new school book every year. Developments in the curriculum can be added in terms of pages. We have all of the technology to be able to do that. It should not be new school books every year. She was correct to highlight that.

The Department stated that it expects schools to adopt a cost-conscious approach to the selection of school books, work books, copy books and related classroom resources. It recommends that a cover be placed on the books to protect them. Schools are requested to remind pupils' parents and guardians of school book care and maintenance, precisely so that the school books can be reused the following year. The free primary school books scheme is supported by Government funding of more than €50 million, which was issued earlier this year to all primary and special schools to purchase all school books, work books and copy books for their pupils in time to start the current school year. The scheme will seek to ensure that value for money is achieved and that schools will be supported to implement the scheme in a way that has the best learning outcomes for pupils. At the same time, it is important to emphasise that the Department has stated that schools continue to have the autonomy to choose school books and work books that meet curricular requirements and in the case of special schools and special classes meet the learning needs of pupils.

What the Senator highlighted is entirely possible. It is possible for an individual school to take a different approach and add costs or wastage. It is important to highlight the best practice that can be adopted by schools in the way the Senator did and for that to happen universally. This is the first year. It is really about what happens next year and how they manage the great resource provided in the best interests of the environment, learning opportunities and maintaining a reasonable cost for the State for the different needs. The Senator raised the issue in a timely way that gives schools the opportunity to plan.

I thank the Minister of State. Her response highlighted the issue, which is that a system was put in place without a policy backing up what would happen for these individual schools. An overall system is needed. There is no skin off the nose of an individual school bringing on board a new school book but it is a cost for the State and for the environment. It is the job of the Government and the Department of Education, not an individual school, to ensure the system is in place. A directive is needed, rather than just asking a school to take on board the environment.

There needs to be a directive that there is no change in the school books unless there is a major change in the curriculum, that schools must either recycle or send old books for reuse in Ireland or in other parts of the world, and that they must all make an annual return on the matter of how much they are spending, or the State is spending, on the provision of school books. That greater transparency, in the absence of a generalised policy, might make schools step up to the mark.

The Minister of State is correct. This is a timely discussion we are having. Let us look at it for next year but let us also factor the environment into every policy decision of the Department of Education. My issues yesterday regarding solar panels demonstrate that the Department of Education is simply not taking a forward-looking approach to how we address nature, pollution and climate.

The free primary school book scheme benefits up to 558,000 pupils in approximately 3,200 recognised primary schools, including pupils in 130 special schools. I cannot even imagine the number of books and copybooks that is but it is a very considerable amount of paper and a considerable opportunity for wastage. Certainly in my own constituency of Dún Laoghaire, schools are very assiduous at highlighting green issues, recycling and adopting a whole-school approach to that. If I were a school principal I would be adopting an approach on how we manage that collectively as a school and how we set our own targets for recycling and the reuse of books over time.

Senator O'Reilly's idea on the transparency regarding the return on the usage of the books is a very good one. Why should we not have a measure of that transparency? It is being set against the natural tension that exists in the way our school system is structured, which leaves a lot of autonomy to the individual schools under the boards of management. That remains but there is no reason there could not be a voluntary return of some kind, and I will certainly bring that idea back to the Minister. It is really important and timely for the Senator to have raised it.

Children in Care

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. The Minister of State will be aware that there are around 6,000 children in care in Ireland, and about 90% of those are in foster care. Foster carers are individuals who have a passion for what they do and they care for some of the most vulnerable children and young people in society. I know the Minister of State will have met many of them as well. They are incredible people for what they do. They do amazing work. They provide security and shelter while at the same time ensuring the child or young person can realise his or her own potential.

It is fair to say, however, that the sector is in a crisis, and that can even be gauged by looking at the numbers. In January of this year, there were 3,914 foster carers registered in Ireland. That figure is down from 4,387 in 2017. The Irish Foster Care Association, in a survey of 460 carers this year, found that 76% of those surveyed would not recommend fostering due to financial pressures and the lack of support from the State. Those are the two critical reasons we have a recruitment and retention problem in this area.

Critical to this is the level of payment. A foster parent is paid €325 per week for those children under the age of 12, and €352 for those aged 12 plus. Those payments have not been increased since 2009. It has been the exact same payment level over all of that time. Why that is difficult is because of the costs associated with bringing up a child or young person. There are additional costs, especially given some of the challenges facing these children and young people. I refer particularly to travel expenses. We all know about the cost of fuel, and those parents regularly have to drive those children, often weekly, to meet members of their birth family. They often have to get them to medical appointments to see their therapist and so on. There are also concerns in that for those who take time out of work to engage in foster caring, it can be difficult for them to be able to qualify for a State contributory pension. Certainly, I know that among older foster carers, this continues to be a concern.

The other aspect, apart from the question around the levels of financial supports that are available, is around the access to State supports. A majority of those in foster care report that they do not have regular access to social workers or foster link workers. It is absolutely critical, if we think about how vulnerable some of these children and young people are, that there is regular access to those supports, especially out of hours. Tusla talks about an out-of-hours helpline, but frequently, if an incident arises, often the only recourse a foster carer has is to call the Garda. That is not the appropriate course of action that has to happen.

The Minister of State and I know that, even looking at this just in economic terms, there is a significant net saving to the State in a loving foster family caring for these young people rather than these children and young people having to go into care. The cost of placing those children in State care would be a multiple of that of having them placed in a loving family. While I appreciate Tusla has published a strategic plan for foster care services, foster carers on the ground are not feeling it. They say that the levels of financial and State supports are not there, and I made that point about there being no increase since 2009. It is my view that there needs to be, at this critical juncture, a complete, independent review of the foster care system in Ireland, addressing in particular both the levels of financial and State supports to those families.

I thank the Senator for raising this really important issue. These children are the most vulnerable, and the State is their parent in providing the opportunity for a different form of care for them. That is best done, in the vast majority of cases, in the foster care system. It is the preferred option for children who cannot, for any reason, live with their birth family. Foster carers play a vital, greatly empathetic and in many cases a really difficult role in trying to support children at different stages of their lives in a secure, safe, stable home environment. I am aware of a number of the issues the Senator has highlighted which impact foster carers. It is imperative we support foster carers because, as the Senator said, not only does it have the best outcome for the child in a holistic way in most cases but it is also by far the most economical model, although that is not always the driver.

As of June 2023, approximately 90% of children in care were being cared for by foster carers. That record compares very favourably internationally but it is difficult to maintain the number of foster carers in Ireland in line with demand for these placements. The overall number of children in care has decreased by 125 or 2% over the l

past year alone, though the number of foster carers has decreased even more significantly, by 147 between quarter 2 of 2022 and quarter 2 of 2023, representing a fall of 4% over the same period. This trend has contributed to a reduction in foster care placements as a proportion of all children in care. We have to think about that very carefully.

The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has asked me to share a number of key developments that the Department and Tusla continue to progress in this area. I am sure the Senator will be familiar with many of them. The Minister has said he is deeply aware of the concerns raised by stakeholders in respect of the basic rates of the foster care allowance and how that can affect recruitment and retention. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is attempting to secure an increase to the foster care allowance in the upcoming budget. Foster carers have also raised concerns about a number of issues relating to supports under the remit of the Department of Social Protection, including the back to school clothing and footwear allowance and the issue of State pension contributions, as the Senator has raised. I will raise that with the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, who I know is looking at the carer's pension separately in recognition of the great work carers do. In recognition of the question of foster carers, I will also highlight that with her.

In addition, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman and his Department had ongoing engagement with Tusla on improving supports for foster carers in line with the strategic plan for foster care services, 2022 to 2025, which the Senator will be familiar with. Foster carers were consulted in that process, but my understanding is that there is a lot of work to go there yet. The Minister, Deputy O’Gorman and his Department welcome the appointment of a national lead for foster care in Tusla, who has responsibility for recruitment, communications, consistency in recruitment and retention, and the implementation of the strategic plan. Obviously, the budget will form a major part of that development as well.

I thank the Minister of State for that answer. There is, within her answer, an acknowledgment of the problem. We should be particularly alarmed by that trend that we are talking about, and the fact that even though we are heavily reliant on foster care, the number of parents who are willing to continue to foster care continues to fall. That is a trend that is deeply worrying.

I welcome the fact there is recognition that the two key problems are the lack of financial supports.

I would certainly hope, and I know that within the context of my own parliamentary party I have been raising this, that we see the foster care issue addressed in next week's budget. There are other structural issues that need to be addressed as well. Such as the levels of State support available for foster carers, particularly out of hours, and particularly with very difficult children. I would appreciate it if the Minister of State would bring those concerns back.

It is really important that the Senator highlighted this issue today. Those figures about the decrease of 4% in the number of foster carers that are there are very worrying. Of course that comes at a time of population increase of greater than 4% or anything remotely equivalent to it. Quite a number of children have come from very difficult circumstances around the world, many of whom may be children on their own, or who are in very difficult and traumatic situations having come from Ukraine or other places that are experiencing real difficulties. At a time of rising population, a decrease of that nature is very worrying and there will be fewer children in care if there are fewer placements for them. The spectre of leaving children in a situation that is not suitable for them is very concerning which is why the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, will continue to work on this over the coming period with Tusla and in relation to the budget.

Referendum Campaigns

Cuirim fáilte roimhe an Aire Stáit. The Minister of State is very welcome. It is good to engage with her and I thank her for coming to the House. There is a fair degree of concern among many people with regard to the Government's capacity to consult the general public on matters of public importance and to take on board feedback, specifically. Consultation with advocacy NGOs that are Government-funded may be high on the Government's agenda but when it comes to wider consultation it sometimes seem that views that are received are often sidelined. The widespread public consultation on the Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 eventually resulted in substantial opposition to aspects of the Bill being ignored and a small cohort of lobbyists being heard instead. That has led, in my view, to a Bill that is toxic to freedom of expression and that smuggles in a bizarre and indeed dangerous definition of gender.

A similar scenario played out with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and its public consultation on the new social, personal, and health education syllabi. Much of the feedback received in first round consultations was ignored and it was only when ordinary people fought back that the Minister intervened and an adjusted syllabus was produced.

There is concern now that public consultations on gender equality referendums may be disregarded. It is now more than four months since the closure of that consultation and it is time for the Minister to share the outcomes of that consultation with us. This is important because the Government's understanding of and attitude toward gender is a key issue in the context of those referendums. I believe the Government's understanding and attitude to gender and its meaning is emerging as a risk issue for Irish people, to be frank. The Government has tried to pull the wool over people's eyes with a circular explanation of gender in the hate speech and hate crimes Bill. It does not use the term "gender spectrum" but that is what is implied. In the Bill, gender is any gender identity or expression that one wishes it to be and there are more than 100 such identity terms currently known.

For ordinary folk brought up on common sense and informed by science, gender and sex are effectively synonymous. Gender is a noun and gender is either male or female. Gender can also be employed in an adjectival sense, as in gender expression or gender identity. These are ways people see themselves, a dimension of their own perception of who they are. As such, gender expression and gender identity are subjective ideas and as such they are the person's own business with no necessary external manifestation in society. There can be as many identities as there are people or personalities.

In the context of these forthcoming gender referendums where the definition of gender will be crucial, it is troubling that the Government wants us to believe that gender-sex and gender identity are the same, that the noun can be replaced by attaching gender to a completely different noun and still mean the same thing. To take an example, linguistically tennis and a tennis ball are not the same thing, and a car and a car race are not the same thing. As such, gender is not the same thing as gender identity. This is not a mere word game. What the Government has been asking us to swallow is that gender, as in the male-female binary, is no longer of importance and that it must give way to this idea of identity. This is saying that being a man or a woman is no longer a valuable description for society or for law but that one must be viewed as existing along this imaginary spectrum. The law does not have feelings. The law sees men and women and the consequences that flow from the difference as significant. If there were no real world consequences to male-female differences, then the law would not distinguish and that is as far as it should go. The trick of mixing gender and gender identity was pulled, effectively, at the citizens' assembly and has been baked into the hate Bill. It is really important, therefore, since this issue is connected with the likely content of proposed referendums, that we hear at an early date what citizens have been saying about all of this in the consultation. I do not think we should be months on from that consultation without having heard from the Government and that is why I am asking for a report back on the consequence of that consultation.

First of all, I was a member of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality that considered the recommendations of the citizens' assembly and I may be incorrect but I do not recall the Senator attending that committee to make these views heard at that stage. This Oireachtas committee considered the recommendations of the citizens' assembly, what it had said, and its detailed reports. We heard from the organisers of the citizens' assembly and we heard from participants of the citizens' assembly. We worked for a period of nine months in the Joint Committee on Gender Equality to reflect on the work of what is, the Senator will agree, a public consultation of the broadest sort, considered over a very considerable period of time through Covid-19 and people worked extremely hard. Forgive me if I am mistaken but I do not recall the Senator's active participation in that committee at which point he could have contributed any or all of these views. He could have either gotten himself onto this committee or attended in any way and shared those views. As I said, forgive me if I am mistaken in that regard but I just do not recall it.

Nor do I recall, and forgive me if I am mistaken, the Senator's attendance at the justice prelegislative hearings on the hate crime Bill. Again, I was Vice Chair of that committee and I recall the work that came up in great detail. The issues there were essentially about how to deal with a scenario in which, for example, a case from the UK where a young boy with Down's syndrome had been beaten and while he was being beaten slurs associated with Down's syndrome in the past were used. The question was whether or not that should be an aggravating factor in sentencing. I believe it should be but that was the question around hate speech.

What has happened since then is this effort to morph and distort a lot of that work into something I genuinely cannot even follow. I cannot even follow what the Senator is saying because the things are so convoluted and conflated. The Senator raised the question of public consultation. There has been a Citizen's Assembly on Gender Equality in the most broad sense. There was a nine-month Oireachtas committee which dealt with those recommendations and on which I sat. These issues did not present themselves in any way. They have come from a different place. The Senator has said things such as that the Government is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and that this is a risk issue. Why did the Senator not come and talk about it? Why did he not come and engage?

Is the Minister of State asking me a question?

I am asking why the Senator did not engage.

I will tell the Minister of State why. It was very difficult for people to get on that gender committee. I think my friend and colleague, Senator Keogan, was kept off the committee.

Senator, the Minister has four minutes to speak.

I thought the Minister of State was asking me a question.

I genuinely did ask a question, yes.

The Minister of State can conclude any time she wishes.

The Citizen's Assembly on Gender Equality made three recommendations that centred on the Constitution: to insert gender equality and non-discrimination; to remove the reference of women within the home; and to amend Article 41 to protect family life to make sure that children in the family are not discriminated against whether their parents are married or not. As I said, great work was done both by the citizen's assembly in particular during Covid-19, and then at the Oireachtas committee thereafter. An interdepartmental group has been established to try to progress a lot of that work but there is no question of not having had public consultation. It was a broad citizen's assembly in the way that there have been citizen's assemblies. As a deliberative democracy principle, Ireland has set itself apart through the use of citizen's assemblies to look at various different issues. We have had good success in that. The analysis of that by political scientists is that it is a good deliberative democracy model which is not unique to Ireland but has worked extremely well in making sure there is broad consultation, quite apart from the broad democratic legitimacy of the people engaged in that work at every level. I find the Senator's approach to the notion of the Government trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, in those circumstances, curious.

I make no apologies to my friend, the Minister of State, for choosing my own forum in which to ventilate the major problems with what the Government is doing by twisting gender and gender identity.

It has the HSE pretending that men can have babies and breast-feed. It leads to the erasure of women as men with dysphoria lay claim to women's spaces.

In our playschools and schools, the normal securing of children's certainty of their personal identity at an early age could be turned upside down. They are being told fairy tales. I recently heard about a school in Galway where a teacher invited the children to state which gender identity they had. Introducing this confusion into children's lives is not what the Government should be doing or supporting. The Minister of State cannot hide behind the fact that she is not happy that I was not present to debate in the forum she chose, when I have chosen my own forums very frequently and repeatedly. Considering that people like Senator Keogan were kept off the gender committee, it is ironic indeed. The fact is that there is a problem. There are children with gender dysphoria, not trans children. We have got to deal with that problem in a way that does not turn reality on its head but deals with the crisis of dysphoria. When you hear the worries of people like Professor Donal O'Shea, you realise it is very clear that the Government is on board with a radical agenda, has not been up-front with the Irish people and will get increasing pushback. It has major implications for what the Government proposes to do in any referendum that tampers with the meaning of gender.

No. It is very clear that this is going to be the Senator's approach to a referendum about removing the reference to women's place being in the home and about trying to create a principle of non-discrimination. I can see where this is going. It is fine that the Senator chooses his forum, but I do not need his apologies and have never asked for them. I do not question his forum; I simply question his consistency.

The Minister of State just could not answer my argument; that is her problem.

I simply question his consistency. On this notion that men are laying claim to women's places, which I have heard time and again, I am a woman and have worked for women's issues on a range of different issues.

Some women are horrified with the approach the Minister of State-----

Senator, the Minister of State should be allowed to contribute without interruption.

I have worked for women's protection across a range of issues, including gender violence and domestic violence. I have read into the records of the Dáil, Seanad and committees the names of every woman murdered since 1997 in different circumstances. Women's Aid-----

Congratulations on your good work.

The Minister of State should be allowed to contribute without interruption.

I assure the Senator that since the gender recognition change in 2015, neither I nor any woman with whom I am personally acquainted has raised the spectre or fact of men coming into women's places in order to attack them. My constituents have not raised it with me either. I assure the Senator that in any circumstances where a man actually wishes to attack a woman, he does not need to dress up as a woman to do that. Men are perfectly capable of doing it, as is evidenced by the number of women who have been killed in their own homes by men they know in these circumstances. The Senator is conflating issues incorrectly.

The Minister, without interruption.

The Senator should not tell me about protecting women.

The Minister of State should be consistent, then, and not damage women's issues and interests-----

The Senator has had his one minute and the Minister of State replied. I asked him not to interrupt her when she was speaking. I thank the Minister of for being present.

Naval Service

The Tánaiste is most welcome. I am sure Senator Lombard will not interrupt him.

I never interrupt a Corkman. The Tánaiste is more than welcome. I am delighted to have him here. It is a great honour to have a Tánaiste in the Chamber to discuss a Commencement matter. It is a rare event, so I acknowledge the Tánaiste's presence this morning.

This issue of recruitment to the Naval Service is very close to the hearts of the Tánaiste and his constituents. Our Naval Service has roughly 775 personnel, with 77 in the Reserve. The issue emerged last week when we had a comprehensive, multi-agency approach to a drugs seizure off the south-east coast that saw really significant co-operation involving the Defence Forces, the Coast Guard and the customs service. They had really good and positive success when they captured the ship and seized the contraband on it. It brought to light the real worry we have regarding the capacity of our Naval Service.

The Tánaiste might confirm that we have only two naval ships in active service at present, unfortunately. We have one on standby. This is a significant issue considering that 437,000 sq. km of water must be patrolled. This is an area roughly five times the size of Ireland. Trying to patrol an area five times the size of Ireland with two naval ships is a significant challenge, to say the very least. In addition, at both EU and national level, there are security issues that need to be examined. I am concerned that the EU, including Ireland, faces security issues regarding the fishing industry, the patrolling of waters, and customs and excise. This requires a significant body of work, considering what is required to patrol a body of water such as ours. How can we ensure that we have a Naval Service that is fit for purpose?

I fully understand that there is a commission, a report coming forward, and major work being done to ensure better pay and conditions for recruits. The work involves a significant challenge, taking into consideration that the unemployment rate is dropping below 4%. As the Tánaiste knows, in our part of the world there are competing demands regarding employment. I have heard stories of complete classes of Naval Service recruits going to multinationals halfway through training because they were of a certain standard. That is a significant challenge for us.

I would like clarity on the two new naval ships that I believe were purchased second-hand from New Zealand and brought here last May, having cost something like €26 million. This was a significant investment, which I really welcome, but where are we going to get the manpower to make sure we get these ships into the water? Basically, we need a pathway to ensure confidence in the Naval Service and to ensure people can be recruited. Those recruits can come into the main service or the Reserve, which has a role to play. With the Reserve strength as low as 77, it is really challenging to ensure the Reserve is appropriate.

As much as it is a great pleasure to have the Tánaiste here, I believe there is a significant challenge. I would like clarity on how we can get our Naval Service up to capacity to make sure we can patrol our waters.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue in respect of recruitment and retention plans for the Naval Service. I acknowledge and pay tribute to the joint task force on its work last week in successfully detaining the cargo vessel MV Matthew, working with the Revenue Commissioners, the Customs and Excise and An Garda, which has overall responsibility for the prevention of drug trafficking and crime. The Defence Forces across the three services – it is important to stress the three services – demonstrated their unique skills and professionalism in providing key roles to successfully deliver on this operation. The Air Corps exhibited tremendous precision and skill in managing the helicopter and the Army Ranger Wing demonstrated great courage, skill and speed in taking control of the vessel, as did the Naval Service in shadowing, monitoring and eventually taking control of the vessel coming back into Cork. In essence, the operation, involving all three services, is the way forward. Therefore, we cannot consider maritime surveillance exclusively in terms of ships as there is also a very strong aerial context.

For quite a number of years, there has been a significant issue with recruitment in our Defence Forces. It is particularly acute in our Naval Service. There have been particular challenges over the past three to four years with the recruitment and retention of specialists who enable ships to operate and with competing demands from other sectors, which the Senator has mentioned. The skills developed by the highly trained personnel in our Defence Forces are highly sought after in a buoyant employment market. Particularly at the lower harbour in Cork and Ringaskiddy, there is significant competition for employment and a significant focus on our trained naval personnel.

A range of measures have been introduced to deal with pay and conditions. It is important that the very significant increases in staff and pay be acknowledged. There tends not to be awareness of what has happened. For example, in 2019, or about four years ago, a newly qualified private 3 star private could expect to earn €27,759 gross per annum, including the military service allowance but excluding the duty allowance.

Following the implementation of the Commission on the Defence Forces recommendations and the pay increases under the Building Momentum public service pay agreement, the final 1.5% of which is due on 1 October of this year, on completion of training which will take approximately 24 weeks, recruits now start at €38,000, as compared to €27,000 four years ago, in year one. A person coming out of the leaving certificate is on €38,000. He or she is on €39,400 in year two and €40,700 in year three. In terms of officers, a school-leaver cadet, on commissioning as an officer, is paid €41,962. This is a second lieutenant position. After two years, he or she is promoted to lieutenant and his or her pay rises to €47,245. Where a graduate joins, the pay rate, on commissioning as an lieutenant, begins at €47,245. They all include pension and military service allowance, which is an allowance that is paid to all ranks up to and including the rank of colonel for the unpredictable nature of the work encountered by the Defence Forces. That needs to be acknowledged. It is a significant improvement.

Notwithstanding all of that, we are working on other measures to try to improve the situation. That includes general service recruitment and specialist recruitment undertaken through direct entry and re-entry schemes. The Be More recruitment campaign continues and the benefits of a career in the Naval Services were highlighted through a bespoke Naval Service advertisement. In addition, the military authorities keep all aspects of recruitment under ongoing review to ensure they determine effectively a candidate's suitability for entry to the Defence Forces. On this basis and in an effort to maximise the recruitment pool, psychometric testing, which had been the norm in the naval general service recruitment, was paused in June of this year on a pilot basis for six months. An analysis of the revised approach will take place that will inform future decisions on this process. Fitness test scoring has also been amended to a traffic-light system where reduced capacity does not necessarily preclude the individual from the recruitment process. In other words, quite a number of people apply. They do not all make it through. The focus has to shift from a weeding-out approach to one asking whether we can facilitate the entry of people into the service. In addition, the maximum age of entry was increased to 29 years for general service recruits, cadets, apprentices and certain specialists, and we are looking at that again. An extension of service limits for the Defence Forces as a whole applies to Naval Service able seamen and leading seamen and, on an interim arrangement, for petty officers.

To bolster further efforts, a specialist external company has recently been engaged to validate and assess the Defence Forces' current recruitment process and to identify possible opportunities for improvement of the current process. The initial focus is on the Naval Service. A marine recruitment specialist company has also been recently engaged to target individuals with the particular skills and expertise required by the Naval Service. The Government has also introduced a range of financial and non-financial retention measures, which, for the Naval Service, specifically include the seagoing service commitment scheme, which is aimed at retaining experienced personnel and incentivising seagoing duties. A seagoing naval personal tax credit of €1,500 has been extended into 2023, and that will continue. There has also been significant progress on pay, as I outlined with the starting rates, and there is scope for further income from duty allowances and operations such as Operation Irini. The specific recruitment and retention measures for the Naval Service are in addition to the wider benefits of membership of the Defence Forces. These include generous annual leave allowances; access to a public service pension scheme; opportunities for career progression; fully funded opportunities to continue in education to gain professional and academic qualifications; access to a range of primary medical care and dental care; and, as of 1 September, private secondary medical care to all enlisted personnel, which is a very significant additional support to members of the Defence Forces and the Naval Service. Those are consultant-led services and they will have access to private treatment. Our immediate focus is on stabilising the numbers in the Naval Service and thereafter increasing capacity to increase the numbers of personnel.

All I can say is it is great to have the Tánaiste here. He can speak for ten minutes and he will not be interrupted.

I probably would not interrupt my boss, to be honest with the Senator. I am sure the Senator appreciated getting a comprehensive answer.

Absolutely, I appreciate the comprehensive response by the Tánaiste. It is appropriate to the question. The Tánaiste outlined where we are going regarding the measures and what is happening on the ground.

We are at the lowest level, probably since the 1970s, of ability for our ships to operate in the ocean. I realise it is a multi-agency approach. I take that on board. When does the Tánaiste think we will have an increase in the complement out at sea? I am not even asking about a full complement. We have two of our nine vessels out at present, which is a significantly low figure. When will we be in a scenario in which we have if not the full complement out at sea, then let us say half the complement out at sea?

I mentioned the two vessels we bought from New Zealand. What is the plan for them to be in active service? There were purchased for €26 million, which is a significant cost. They came in last May. Can we get a sense from the Tánaiste of when he believes they will take active service?

Those two new vessels are further evidence of the Government's commitment to investment in the Naval Service and in capacity and capability more generally across the Defence Forces. The C295s that have been ordered, one of which has come in, give a far greater maritime surveillance capacity to the Air Corps as well as a potential strategic airlift capacity. The investments are in train.

The Chief of Staff, working with the flag officer, is working on operational maximisation of the existing staff in terms of deployment. That work is under way. That is one element to it. The other, of course, is recruitment and retention initiatives.

A significant number of measures have been taken but they are not yet impacting to the degree that I would like on recruitment numbers. There has been some improvement but not at the level that we require.

I have also asked for a radical look at how we recruit the specialists that are required in the engine room and in terms of the technical and technological skills that are required to enable ships to go to sea. That has been an issue, in terms of both recruitment and retention, which has been examined.

Until those issues improve, we are not in a position to be precise in terms of how many vessels we can deploy with confidence. There is an issue around the operational optimisation of our existing staff to see what we can do to put ships out at sea.

I thank the Tánaiste for coming to Seanad Éireann today.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.17 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.35 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 10.10 a.m. and resumed at 10.35 a.m.
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