The Order of Business is No. 1, European Arrest Warrant (Amendment) Bill 2022 – Committee Stage, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to adjourn at 2 p.m., if not previous concluded; and No. 2, statements to mark the second anniversary of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, to be taken at 2.15 p.m. and to conclude at 3.45 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and that time may be shared, and the Minister to be given not less than ten minutes to reply to the debate.
An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business
Like the Leas-Chathaoirleach, I welcome the students from St. Tiernan's in Dundrum and our guests from the European Court of Justice and I offer a particular welcome to the Estonian ambassador. Ireland and Estonia have a long range of links and friendships. Tallinn is a beautiful city so I recommend that anyone who has not been to it definitely visit Estonia. Apart from recognising independence, we appreciate the fact that we live in a free and democratic Europe. Our values are very much shared based on human rights and the rule of law. Given that we are now two years into Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, it is more important than ever that we express and share solidarity with our Baltic friends and neighbours.
Today I wish to raise the question of railways. It is very welcome that under the initiative of the shared island unit, we will see heavy investment in the rail line between Dublin and Belfast to move towards hourly services but I want to raise the fact that while this welcome investment is continuing, we are not seeing any further improvement in the Rosslare rail line. This is one of the oldest and busiest lines in the country but we are now talking about potential disruption of services with those travelling from south of Wicklow town having to change trains in Wicklow town if they wish to continue to Dublin. I ask for a debate on railways. I know the Leader has an interest in the western rail corridor. We need to see the publication of the all-island rail review and I hope the Leader would invite the Minister for Transport to the House to discuss this issue.
I also want to raise a proposal made by Councillor Albert Dolan from Galway. Albert has proposed that as a health initiative, gym membership be made tax deductible. I favour this idea. I know it has been discussed and the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, has raised it with the Minister for Finance. I am not just talking about gym membership but about membership of sports clubs or other organisations so that there is an incentive and that if people are involved in sporting organisations, there could be tax relief for that. We talk about mens sana in corpore sano. Apart from just talking about a healthy body, we must ensure we have healthy minds. Membership of artistic organisations could also be considered for the purposes of tax relief. This country has a long and proud tradition of investment in arts and sport and trying to encourage that is healthy. If the tax system could assist that, I hope we could ensure that this would happen as well.
I also welcome the students from St. Tiernan's and I encourage the fifth and sixth years there to take part in our annual Oireachtas essay competition - oireachtasessay.ie. They could win €1,000 for the best essay in Irish or English so I look forward to seeing their entries.
I also welcome the Estonian ambassador. Taking the ferry from Helsinki to Tallinn and visiting the Irish ambassador in our beautiful embassy in that lovely city was one of the pleasures I enjoyed in recent years.
I do not know whether I should congratulate or remonstrate with my former colleague, Judge Eugene Regan, who I remember over a decade ago trolled the then Government on a practically daily basis as it was limping towards oblivion. The reason I might remonstrate with him is for proving so impressively that there is life outside the Seanad. I am not sure that is something we would want our voters to realise. I offer my congratulations to him and welcome his colleagues.
I also welcome and agree with Councillor Albert Dolan's proposal for making gym membership tax deductible. My problem, however, is not so much paying for it as actually using it once I have paid for that membership. I need to get my averages up. I think my gym visits are working out at about €100 per go at the moment so it is a case of "needs to do better" as the school report might say.
If, as I hope, the Government's two flawed proposals for the referendum on family and care are defeated, and I think they will be defeated on their merits, we need to look at how the McKenna principles are being operated in this country. Friends will recall that the Supreme Court produced a judgment in that case in 1995 that where it was permissible for the State to spend public money to provide the public with unbiased information about referenda, the use of taxpayers' money to promote a particular outcome during a referendum was an interference with the democratic process and an infringement of a concept that is fundamental to the democratic nature of the State. That is all good and correct.
Information was sought from the Government to publish the minutes of the Government's interdepartmental group meetings that were considering the proposed amendments. When one considers the confusion about what the phrase "durable relationships" might mean for court cases and disputes around tax, social welfare, pensions and allocation of family assets, it would seem desirable to find out what the 64 pages of notes and minutes discussing the consequences of these amendments would actually show along with the Government's engagements with various NGOs. Strangely, the reason the Government gave for not producing those minutes was the argument that public officials could be seen to promote referendum outcomes were the Government to publish those and that this could be in breach of the McKenna principles. That seems to be a very thin argument to make.
Of more relevance to the McKenna principles is the fact that the campaign for the "Yes" side seems to be led by the National Women's Council of Ireland, which as far as I can see, is getting about 95% or 96% of its staffing costs from public money from the HSE or directly from the State. If that is not public money funding a referendum campaign, I do not know what is. I am confident that these two flawed proposals will be defeated on their merits but when this is over, I think we have to have a serious conversation about how public money is being effectively funnelled to indirectly influence the outcome of a referendum. This is a big story we need to examine in the wake of the referendums, which I hope and expect will be defeated.
I acknowledge our friends from Estonia. In the context of our European neighbours, we have a lot to learn from Estonia, particularly its approach to digital advancements. There is a lot to be followed there in terms of developing our capacity in the digital realm. I welcome them to the Chamber this morning.
I also acknowledge that today is European Day of Victims of Crime so it is very important we remember that we have so much work to do to ensure that those who are victims of crime are recognised and that we put everything we can in place in our laws to ensure they are protected and their rights are vindicated, which is tremendously important. I know there is a number of mechanisms in place. This Seanad passed a number of laws specifically to address the survivors of crime of various different types but it is important on this day that we remember the victims of crime and redouble our efforts to ensure we do whatever we can to support them.
What I want to specifically address today are accessibility issues. On Saturday, I will be attending the launch of Finding Charlie's Voice, an Irish charity that supports children with communication difficulties. It is named after a little boy named Charlie who has verbal dyspraxia, which means that although he is a perfectly normal child, he has difficulty expressing himself and his verbal expression is very limited. The charity puts in place lots of supports for schools and children in playgrounds to allow children with any disconnect between their communication skills and their intellect to express themselves and communicate with others. It is a very worthwhile charity.
It is one of so many organisations around this country that work on developing accessibility for people who for one reason or another are disadvantaged in terms of accessibility be that a physical or other kind of issue. One issue that came to light recently concerns the deposit return scheme. This is a great scheme that makes sense and will massively increase the level of recycling but the machines that are being installed in supermarkets and shops all over Ireland are not particularly accessible to wheelchair users. One I highlighted in a tweet recently is in a branch of Lidl in Glenageary had different issues because people had left a lot of plastic bottles that the machine was not accepting instead of taking them home but that is another day's work. The reality is that the inlet for the bottles is quite high so it is not particularly accessible to someone in a wheelchair. Could we incorporate this issue into a general debate on accessibility issues and whether there is room for machines that accommodate the fact that not everybody can reach that high?
It is not just wheelchair users; this affects lots of people. Children will want to be involved in recycling. Even people who are not particularly tall might have difficulties. Should we not be putting in place a guarantee that these machines are accessible to everyone, irrespective of their physical ability, and ensuring everyone can engage in the return scheme and recycling initiative?
Regrettably, I have to raise the issue of University Hospital Limerick, UHL, once again. I again emphasise the importance of the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, coming to the House for a debate on the issue. The Leader will be aware that another young woman, a 16-year-old, lost her life this week in the most horrendous circumstances. It would not be appropriate for me to go into the circumstances of the case, but they have been well documented. One of the things that really bothers me about UHL is that there is a line I have got indirectly, as the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, has not come to the House to reply on Commencement matters, and then directly last week from the Minister of State, Deputy Collins. That line is that things are getting better. The backdrop to the tragedy this week is that, for the first 21 days of February, there were more than 100 people on trolleys every day. Indeed, one can go back as far as 29 January in that regard. There were more than 100 people on trolleys every day for 24 days in a row. That is the backdrop to the chaos and impossible conditions the staff have to put up with every day, yet we have a Minister who insists things are getting better. The reason he says things are getting better is that the TrolleyGAR numbers are very different from the INMO figures. For those who do not know, TrolleyGAR is a calculation whereby those who are lying on a trolley but have not yet been admitted to the hospital do not count in the figures. To be frank, that is ridiculous. It is nonsense. That, however, is the line to which the Minister is clinging as we have more and more despair from people throughout the mid-west. There is no doubt that lives are being lost. That is now generally accepted. Lives are being lost unnecessarily because of 12 years of failure and eight years of failure, respectively, by successive Governments in dealing with UHL. I once again urge the Leader to get the Minister in here for a debate in order that we can confront him with the facts.
The second issue I wish to raise relates to Julian Assange. All Senators are aware he had his High Court hearing yesterday. This may be his last chance to see whether he will have any further grounds to make a defence in order to avoid being extradited on espionage charges to the US. I have raised this issue with the Leader many times. I acknowledge that she has said positive things regarding the horrendous circumstances Julian Assange faces simply for telling the truth about war crimes, such as the horrendous "Light them up" incident in Iraq in 2007, when US troops literally gunned down civilians for the fun of it. That is why he has been tortured. It is why it now seems he will be extradited. When I hear talk of European values, I have to ask where those values are in the context of Julian Assange. This afternoon, the House will rightly debate the issue of Ukraine and I expect Alexei Navalny will rightly be mentioned. Three years ago, I and many others in this Chamber called for his release. Why do none of the Senators on the Government side ever mention Julian Assange? How can they ignore what is happening to him? Should not every right-thinking individual stand up now, like never before, and insist that Julian be freed? His only crime was to tell the truth.
I, too, welcome the Estonian ambassador. I note for the record the amount of work she has done in supporting an initiative I launched approximately two years ago in the area of cybersecurity, including awareness and training. The assistance we have had from Tallinn has been second to none. I thank her very much for her efforts.
It is interesting that we have members of the European Court of Auditors in today. One of the things they might do is look at public procurement in Ireland. Any time we try to question it-----
Senator, I could not allow you to have an incorrect statement on the record. Our guests are from the European Court of Justice.
Well, the Court of Justice will do fine too.
They are not accountants.
They might look at it, too. We might bring it to them there. My apologies.
The information leaflet for the referendum arrived in my house yesterday. I am absolutely disgusted by it. It gives no clear indication of what is involved. Minister after Minister has gone out telling the people about what it is going to do for families, yet the legal advice is that it will cause more confusion than anything else. Indeed, one of our colleagues on the Government side pointed out on Virgin Media One that people in durable relationships will find themselves in the courts to get durable relationship recognised in order to execute various forms and so on. The issues of succession rights, pension rights and all these things have been brought up. I ask the Leader to please tell me what the word "strive" will mean for those who are involved in caring full time. How will the Government strive? It failed miserably to endeavour, which is the current wording in the Constitution. We are now told care is being placed into the family but the State will strive to support carers. What does "strive" mean? Where can I bring "strive" to the bank? How does "strive" help any carer in any way? If we were serious about this, we would have said the State shall support carers, but we did not use the word "shall". We repeatedly attempted to address this during the debate on the matter in this House. That debate was guillotined in order to allow the Government to run this sham referendum on 8 March, International Women's Day, as if it is going to do something for the women of Ireland. It has done sweet damn all for them and if it passes, which I believe it will not, it will do nothing for carers or those in durable relationships.
I welcome the ambassador and our other guests. In particular, I welcome former Senator Eugene Regan to the Chamber. He is a friend and colleague of mine. I collaborated politically with him at local and national levels. It is great to see him here in this Chamber of which he was once a Member.
I wish to raise the issue of the farmers' charter of rights. The Leader will be aware of the ongoing issues relating to farmers, who are constantly seeking to be treated fairly and with respect, dignity, professionalism and efficiency. We have many funding systems for agriculture and farming. If there is one word to sum this up, it is about "simplification". Farmers want to be compliant with environmental standards and water and EU directives. We are conscious that we are part of the European Union and benefit from the European institutions and its funding. Needless to say, we prosper under them. We and farmers want to be collaborators. It is in their interests to have a proper economic, environmental and sustainable agriculture industry in this country. In preparing for today's meeting of the agriculture committee, I was reminded that the most recent farmers' charter of rights was from 2015 to 2020. It is now 2024. It is time to engage with farming representative bodies, revisit the old charter, add to it and give effect to new schemes and systems, such as ACRES, for instance. There are no issues in that regard. It is progressing. Farmers want to play their part but we must have a charter that respects them and allows them to be economically efficient, environmentally aware and conscious and viable. We can do that through working with them and working for a new charter. I call on the Government to let us get working, sit down with farm representative bodies and get a new farmers' charter that is up to date and fit for purpose.
My apologies for being late. I thank the Leader for allowing me in. There was a wonderful announcement during the week relating to the shared island scheme, which is going to look at hourly travel between Belfast and Dublin. I believe that to be the economic engine of the island. There is an issue, however, which I have raised a couple of times. I received text messages yesterday morning and this morning from people who get the Enterprise train service from Drogheda and pay full whack for a ticket. There were 60 or 70 people standing on those trains.
Where in the world is it acceptable that somebody is paying full price for a ticket, is only 50% through the journey and is standing? That is just not good enough. The Government is doing so much about public transport. That is the way we are moving. We are all rail users, and I know the Leader is as well. We have to make sure that if we are going to continue with this level of investment, we back it up with appropriate carriages and infrastructure. If someone pays for a ticket on any train but particularly in that economic engine of Ireland, the Dublin to Belfast corridor, they should have a seat. I have been a commuter my whole life. It is so frustrating to get on the train in Dundalk or Drogheda in the morning, pay full whack for a ticket even though the price has been reduced, and then have nowhere to sit. People are sitting crammed on the train. I really think we need to look at increasing that infrastructure. We have done it with new rail cars. We ordered 41 new rail cars in the last couple of months. They are coming into service now, which is really good. We have to make sure it is equitable right across the State. I thank the Leader and Leas-Chathaoirleach for allowing me in at the last minute. I appreciate it.
It is a good job you are fit and healthy and can run into the Chamber and still speak clearly.
I am still breathless.
I would not have noticed.
We were discussing tax breaks for gym membership earlier.
Running around the park.
I thank Members who contributed this morning. The first was Senator Malcolm Byrne, who also raised the issue of rail transport and infrastructure and the shared island unit and the fantastic work it is doing. It was good to see the Tánaiste announce further funding for the shared island unit and to see those North-South projects being supported. I am not sure I can agree with Senator McGahon on Dublin-Belfast being the economic engine of Ireland. I will always advocate for the west and our city of Galway but we will agree to disagree on this occasion. Senator Byrne raised the issue of Rosslare railway, which is one of our oldest rail lines and needs further investment. Any time there is an announcement in one area, people will ask, "What about my area?". That is part of it as well. I will always advocate for the western rail corridor, as Senators know as well. Things have changed in the country, particularly with the climate agenda and a desire to leave cars at home and use public transport. There has never been more of a demand for rail transport. When we look at older maps going back 100 years, we had far more rail lines in the country and better rail transport. We are trying to get back to that now and invest right across the country. People want to have that option, so investment in all of our rail lines is really important.
I, too, want to see the publication of the all-island rail review. We have been told we could not publish it until we had an Executive in the North and the Northern Ireland Ministers. We got a draft report published. There is no good reason now that review cannot be published, and investment flow thereafter. I look forward to seeing that happen. I concur with Senator McGahon's remarks on capacity on those rail lines. We know from engagements with Irish Rail that they are very much aware of the capacity constraints on all rail lines. If you are paying full price for a ticket, you should have a seat to sit on except in circumstances where there is a big event on the day as it can be difficult to plan when there is huge demand. In those circumstances, on balance, people will just be happy to get on the train. Ordinarily, on a normal day-to-day basis, there should be capacity to accommodate people with a seat. That has to be the aim, allowing for reasonable times when there may be an unusual peak in demand. I would certainly agree with that.
Senator Malcolm Byrne also raised a proposal by Galway-based Councillor Albert Dolan on gym membership being tax deductible. It is a good suggestion from someone who is coming from a different generation, a younger person involved in politics and looking for practical solutions to assist people and encourage them to stay fit and healthy, mind and body. I am glad to hear that the Minister of State with responsibility for sport, Deputy Thomas Byrne, is looking at that. I take on board the Senator's comment that artistic organisations might also be considered for such a tax deduction because not everybody is into sports, but everybody has their thing or their niche that they want to find.
Senator Mullen raised some serious issues in respect of the upcoming referendums on 8 March. He referenced the McKenna principles as set down by the Supreme Court in its 1995 judgment in respect of access to information and that Governments should not use public funds to push for a particular result in the referendum. I take on board the Senator's comments on supporting and funding NGOs that, in turn, go on to support a particular position. I think that does merit debate. There is probably not time now to have those debates in advance of 8 March. The public will make up their own minds. We have a very intelligent and informed electorate who are able to assess for themselves information they are getting, the sources they are getting it from and whether or not there are agendas attaching to organisations that may be advocating for a particular position. I do trust the electorate to go with their instinct and their gut on this. We will get a result on 8 March, whatever happens. I can understand the concerns being raised when minutes of a meeting are not released, as to why that may or may not happen. I can also understand from a Government perspective that advice was taken and it is trying to do what it believes is in the public interest as well. Sometimes there is disagreement on what is in the public interest and what is not. Certainly it is a debate worth happening. Ultimately, we want to ensure that the democratic process is protected and is run in the proper manner. I am sure that is a shared aim of all of us.
Senator Ward spoke about the need to do more for victims of crime. I would always agree with that. We have done a lot in the lifetime of this Government in terms of improving the justice system in a holistic way, not just looking at the laws on our books and in terms of sentencing but talking about prevention as well, getting in at community level and dealing with crime and community responsibilities. We have done a lot in that space but we have more to do.
I take on board the Senator's point around accessibility issues. I will request a debate broadly on disability and accessibility with the Minister. It has come up and different aspects of that debate have been requested. It would be an opportunity to raise that. The Senator also made an interesting point around the deposit return scheme. There has been a lot of criticism of it. It is in its infancy and just getting started. It is a good idea and the intentions are good. If it is given time to work out some of the challenges, it will have a positive impact. We must give it a little time. People were rushing up with pictures of bottles sitting outside. That is to be expected. It is a new scheme and people are getting used to how to use it. The fact that there are people turning up with bottles in the first place is a good sign. They want to use it. I would take a different view of that.
Senator Gavan raised the issue of UHL and has requested a debate with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. I will request the debate. I think there has been a debate request on a number of health issues that were raised yesterday. We will try to get that debate. I take on board Senator Gavan's remarks. He will be well aware that my response is consistently that it is probably the hospital that has had the most focus of the Minister for Health. He has attended personally onsite. There is new management in place. There have been more beds and more investment. Every effort is being made to try to alleviate the pressures at the hospital, notwithstanding a very honest acknowledgement that those numbers on trolleys are not acceptable. We do not want to see that persist. We acknowledge it is very difficult for staff and for patients and their families. We need to get that under control. There is responsibility on and a role for management in the hospital as well as to why there is such a level of difficulty there. Weekend discharges and having step-down facilities and all that feeds into that and are part of the picture and part of the story as well.
I take on board Senator Gavan's comments about Julian Assange. My view, as I have expressed previously, is that we would all hope he could return to a normal life at some point and be with his family, and not be extradited to the US or locked up in prison for the rest of his days for doing what he believed was the right thing and in the public interest, for telling the truth. We hope for the right outcome in that case for Julian.
Senator Craughwell raised the referendum issue as well. He asked for a definition of "strive". The definition is that you make great efforts. That is what it is defined as. I am not going to give anything extra on that. Again, the public will make up their own minds as to whether the language is to their liking or not. On the referendum leaflet, it is the Electoral Commission that produces that information. It does not offer an opinion either way; it just provides the facts. It is up to each one of us as citizens to assess those facts and make up our own minds and form our own opinions. That is an important part of the process. It is not something that the Government or politicians are involved in putting together, so it is not really something I can answer on.
Senator Boyhan spoke about farmers and the farmers' charter of rights. We have to acknowledge that there is a lot of pressure on farmers for lots of reasons. Global trade is putting on pressure in terms of deals outside the European Union that may or may not go ahead. There are huge demands in terms of climate change. Farmers need and want to address climate change because they will not be able to continue to farm if there is adverse weather and the planet gets hotter. They want to do, and are doing, the right thing. There is a lot of regulation coming down the tracks. There are a lot of i's to be dotted and t's to be crossed by farmers on a weekly and monthly basis. There is an argument that every time we get a new scheme that it is more complicated. It should not be the case that you have to employ outside professional help to access a scheme and fill in the forms.
However, that is where it is going because of the complicated nature of accessing some of these schemes. A whole industry has been built up around filling out the forms and getting the applications submitted. The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, has done a really good job in engaging with farmers. There is not a county in the country that he has not visited to meet representatives of farming organisations on the ground directly. He is a very accessible Minister and has done everything he can. If one takes ACRES as an example, that scheme was supposed to be limited to 30,000 applicants but every single farmer who applied was accepted. I believe there were 46,000 accepted because the Minister wanted to ensure every farmer who wanted to be in the scheme got into it. His modus operandi is such that he wants farmers to get into schemes and to be involved. While he is doing his best to make sure things are simplified as much as they can be; there is an element of complication because of what one is trying to access. There is an acceptance that farmers are more than playing their part. We have to look to other areas, such as big industry and transport. There are other sectors that have to contribute to carbon reduction, not just agriculture. The farmers' charter of rights should be fit for purpose and should represent the views and needs of farmers and their families.
Senator McGahon spoke about the shared island unit and the Irish Rail capacity issue. I have dealt with that matter and I concur with the Senator's remarks.
I welcome to the Gallery our guests from Coole community school, Summerhill, County Meath. They are most welcome to Seanad Éireann. I thank them for coming here today. We had students from another school in just before them. The rule of Seanad Éireann is that, after a visit, there is no homework for the remainder of the week. We had members of the European Court of Justice here to ensure there is proper oversight of this and that it is adhered to by the schools.
Order of Business agreed to.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.12 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.47 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.12 a.m. and resumed at 11.47 a.m.