Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024: Second Stage

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Noel Grealish)

Cash payment has an important role in society and it is essential it remains readily available. Immediately prior to the pandemic, just under €20 billion was withdrawn annually from ATMs in the State. While this declined to approximately €12.8 billion in 2024, cash still has a role in our society and economy. It is important to consumers in all walks of life because it is a private, secure and instant form of payment. It is a budgeting tool for many and allows individuals to maintain their financial independence. Cash is also important to many small and medium enterprises. It is imperative to ensure cash remains widely available and accessible to protect the economy when technology is not a viable option and to ensure those who rely on it can continue to do so.

In this context, the Department of Finance’s retail banking review published in November 2022 recommended development of access to cash legislation that would preserve access to cash, having regard to the levels of infrastructure in December 2022. The review also called on the legislation to require ATM operators and cash-in-transit providers, CITs, to be authorised and supervised by the Central Bank of Ireland.

The Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill, published by the Government on 31 July 2024, addresses these recommendations. It aims to establish a framework to ensure the future evolution of cash infrastructure in Ireland will be managed in a fair, orderly, transparent and equitable manner and provide for the oversight of ATM deployers and cash-in-transit providers. I highlight that a small number of Government amendments were made on Committee Stage in the Dáil that were so technical in nature they did not involve any changes to the policy objectives of the Bill. These amendments were made to ensure the proper functioning of the legislation following enactment.

I will now describe the main elements of the Bill. Part 1 is comprised of sections 1 to 4, inclusive. These sections give the Title of Bill, set out when it will come into effect, define the terms used throughout the Bill, contain provisions relating to expenses, and include a standard section on ministerial regulations and orders.

Part 2 is comprised of sections 5 to 12, inclusive. As these sections make up the major part of the access to cash framework, I will explain them in detail. Section 5 provides that the Minister for Finance shall prescribe the criteria for sufficient and effective access to cash. This will be achieved by establishing the access to cash criteria and regulations, including the percentage of the population for each region in Ireland that must have access to an ATM and cash service point with a specific distance of not less than 5 km and not more than 10 km. A cash service point is a location where cash can be deposited and withdrawn and where in-person assistance is available. Bank branches and post offices satisfy this definition. To ensure sufficient ATM capacity, a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 people per region will also be prescribed. The regions used will be in the NUTS 3 region relied on by Eurostat. Initially, the access to cash criteria will be based on December 2022 levels, taking account of the exits of KBC and Ulster Bank from the Irish retail market, and designated entities will be responsible for ensuring the criteria are met.

Section 5 also provides the Minister for Finance with the ability to prescribe a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 people in each NUTS 3 region, which are available outside of the ATM operator hours if required. The section also provides for the review of the access to cash criteria under different conditions. Reviews must be completed within nine months of publication of the final census population data.

Reviews must be completed within nine months of publication of final census population data, if cash demand decreases by more than 15% in one calendar year compared to the preceding calendar year, or at the request of the Minister for Finance. The Central Bank may also undertake a review on its own initiative. Having assessed such a review, the Minister for Finance may amend the criteria.

Section 6 provides the Minister for Finance with the ability to request the collection and publication, by the Central Bank, of data in relation to cash infrastructure. This data will include the number and value of cash withdrawals. This section also allows the Minister to specify the form, manner, and frequency of publication.

Section 7 defines and sets out the process for identifying local deficiencies. Local deficiencies may occur where, even though the access to cash criteria in section 5 are met, localised difficulties with access to cash infrastructure arise. A person can notify the Central Bank of a potential local deficiency, which may then assess the notification. Where the Central Bank determines that there is a local deficiency that needs to be addressed, it shall notify the designated entities, which will have an opportunity to propose a remedy. Where no proposals are made, or if the proposed remedy is not considered sufficient, the Central Bank may then issue a draft direction to one or more of the designated entities to address the local deficiency.

Section 8 provides for the preparation and publication of guidelines on local deficiencies. The Central Bank is required to publish the guidelines within 12 months of commencement of the section. In preparing these guidelines, the Central Bank shall consult with a number of stakeholders, including the Minister for Finance, designated entities, representatives of consumers, persons with disabilities, elderly persons, SMEs and other persons it considers appropriate.

Section 9 provides for the monitoring and enforcement of compliance with the access to cash criteria in section 5 and for addressing local deficiencies. The Central Bank will monitor and publish information in relation to cash infrastructure. Where this reveals a breach of the access to cash criteria or if the Central Bank has determined that there is a local deficiency that warrants a remedy, the Central Bank will notify the designated entities and the local deficiencies process will begin.

Section 10 provides that designated entities will be credit institutions whose market share of current accounts and household deposits exceed thresholds prescribed by the Minister for Finance for two consecutive quarters. These thresholds may be set, by regulation, at between 5% and 15%. The Minister for Finance may amend these thresholds, as appropriate, following consultation with the Central Bank and other specified stakeholders.

Section 11 deals with access fees. These are fees charged by an ATM operator not providing current accounts for the use of a specific ATM. These fees are separate to normal bank fees or charges for an account. Under this section, the Minister for Finance may make regulations that prohibit or cap the charging of fees for cash withdrawals from ATMs. Such regulations may only be made following consultation with the Central Bank and where the Minister is satisfied that financial inclusion is being impaired due to such fees. While ATM access fees are not presently charged for domestic withdrawals in Ireland, this section allows the Minister for Finance to respond in the event that they are introduced.

Section 12 provides the Central Bank with the power to require information from entities operating in the cash system. This includes information from designated entities, cash-in-transit, CIT, providers, ATM operators, and other entities that operate cash service points. This section provides a legislative basis for the Central Bank to receive information and pass information to and from entities in the cash system to provide advance notice of changes.

Part 3 focuses on the resilience of the cash system. It provides for the regulation of ATM operators and cash-in-transit companies, including registration conditions and notification requirements. It also provides for the sharing of information between the Central Bank and the Private Security Authority.

Part 4 provides powers that will be required by the Central Bank to implement and oversee the registration regime in Part 3. It provides for the making of regulations by the Central Bank and the setting of service standards for ATMs. It also sets out the sanctions for failing to comply with the requirements of the legislation, and the powers of Central Bank authorised officers when undertaking an investigation.

Part 5 provides for amendments to the Central Bank Act 1942 and the Companies Act 2014 to take account of and give effect to this Bill.

Part 6 provides for the Central Bank to carry out and publish a cost-benefit analysis of any regulations it proposes to make. This change is based on another recommendation of the 2022 retail banking review. Previous discussions on this Bill have addressed the required distance to ATMs, Irish language provision and reporting and review. After consideration and analysis, a specified distance of not less than 5 km and not more than 10 km, minimum ATM numbers per 100,000 people and the local deficiency framework were deemed the optimal approach to maintain access to cash levels in the State.

Regarding Irish language requirements, ATM services are available in a number of languages and the consequences of placing such an obligation on privately owned ATMs, particularly older machines in lower traffic areas, are unclear. This would have cost and service provision implications for reprogramming machines and an associated risk is that ATMs would be withdrawn to comply with requirements. The provisions of the Bill were carefully drafted to balance any imposition of costs and administrative burden with the policy goal of ensuring access to cash.

The Central Bank will report regularly on the access to cash infrastructure in the State and the review by the Central Bank is provided for under conditions in section 5.

The legislation comes at an inflection point in the use of cash and alternative payment options as well as changes to the global economy. It will put in place a framework that ensures access to cash is sufficient and effective, while responding to evolving demand in the future. I commend this Bill to the House.

Senator Pat Casey

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and wish him the best of luck with his brief.

This important Bill comes from the 2022 retail banking review and aims to ensure everyone in the country can easily access cash which is an essential part of daily life. The Bill aims to ensure everyone can access cash easily, makes changes to cash infrastructure fairly and transparently and includes cash-in-transit providers and independent ATM operators under the Central Bank of Ireland regulation. The Minister for Finance can set rules to keep cash infrastructure at the same level it was at in 2022 by making sure a certain percentage of people are within 5 km to 10 km of an ATM, keeping a minimum number of ATMs per 100,000 of population and ensuring a certain percentage of people are within 5 km to 10 km of cash service points such as bank branches or post offices. The Central Bank of Ireland will review cash access after each census. If cash demands drop significantly or if the Minister for Finance so requests, population changes and cash demand shifts will be considered to allow the Minister to update the rules as needed.

Major banks will be responsible for meeting the cash access rules. The Bill addresses local problems where cash access might be difficult. The Central Bank will guide and direct entities to fix these issues. The Central Bank will check compliance quarterly and enforce measures to ensure the rules are followed. It will prepare regular reviews and reports and the Minister for Finance can update the rules as necessary. The Minister for Finance can regulate ATM fees to prevent excessive charges to ensure financial inclusion. ATM operators and cash-in-transit providers must be authorised and supervised by the Central Bank to ensure service resilience without undue burdens. The Central Bank will conduct and publish cost-benefit analyses of the proposed regulations to ensure they are justified and beneficial. Recent changes to the Bill have redefined definitions to allow for electronic communication making the legislation more robust and future proof.

The Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024 is a necessary and forward-thinking law. It will ensure our cash infrastructure remains strong and accessible to everyone, adapting to society's changing needs. There is no better example of this than the recent power failure in Spain and Portugal, which highlighted the critical importance of having access to cash. During that outage, many people were unable to make electronic payments, underscoring the vulnerability of a cashless society. This incident demonstrates why maintaining a robust cash infrastructure is essential to financial resilience and inclusion.

Senator Sharon Keogan

The Minister of State is very welcome and I wish him every good luck in his new portfolio. I rise today in support of the Finance (Provision of Access to Cash Infrastructure) Bill 2024. This legislation is not merely timely; it is essential for safeguarding our economy, our communities and our national resilience. Recent events have underscored the fragility of our digital infrastructure. On 28 April, a massive power outage swept across Spain and Portugal, plunging millions into darkness. Electronic payment systems failed, ATMs went offline and businesses were unable to process card transactions. Consumers scrambled for cash to purchase basic necessities, highlighting the critical role of physical currency in times of crisis. Even here in Ireland, we saw the recent consequences of Storm Éowyn, when many Irish citizens were left without electricity and other essentials for weeks. This showed that we are vulnerable and that a similar situation could develop here at any time. These examples serve as a stark warning. Our over-reliance on digital payment systems leaves us vulnerable. It would of course be best if our Government were better prepared to deal with disasters and ensured that we would be resilient in the face of cyberattacks and power outages. Since that is so evidently not the case, it is important that we do the next best thing.

In Ireland, the trend towards a cashless society has been accelerating, with 69% of business reporting a decrease in cash usage over the past year. While cashless transactions offer convenience, they are not infallible. Power outages, cyberattacks or technical failures can disrupt these systems, leaving consumers and businesses stranded. Small and medium-sized enterprises, the backbone of our economy, are particularly at risk. Many small businesses rely on cash transactions for daily operations. The Small Firms Association reported that over 80% of small businesses have experienced rising costs, with 35% stating that they could not trade beyond six months without additional funding. Ensuring access to cash is vital for their survival, especially during unforeseen disruptions.

This Bill aims to maintain cash access at December 2022 levels, ensuring that 99% of the population is within 10 km of a cash service point. It also introduces penalties for banks and ATM providers that fail to meet these requirements. These measures are necessary to guarantee that cash remains a viable option for all, particularly the elderly, those on fixed incomes and residents in rural areas. Critics may argue that these regulations impose additional costs on banks and deter new entrants into the Irish market. However, the cost of inaction is far greater. We must prioritise the financial inclusion and security of our citizens over the convenience of financial institutions. In conclusion, this Bill is a necessary step to ensure the resilience of our economy and the well-being of our citizens. In brief, colleagues, for when the lights go out, we need to ensure that our citizens have a stash of cash to hand.

Senator Cathal Byrne

I will start my first engagement with the Minister of State by wishing him the very best of luck in his role. I sincerely hope he succeeds in his endeavours. I rise to support the Bill on behalf of my good friend and colleague, Senator Joe O'Reilly, who unfortunately cannot be here today. I am from a rural part of County Wexford. There is an opportunity underpinning this Bill to help to bridge the urban-rural divide that at times can lead to a big gap between the facilities available in large cities and towns, and those available for people in rural areas. My support for this Bill is underpinned by the fact that ultimately, the Minister for Finance will be provided with the power to prescribe criteria to preserve the cash infrastructure for the population, meaning that anybody in Ireland must be within a specified distance of not less than 5 km and not more than 10 km of an ATM.

For me, that means large banks in this country will be forced to provide an ATM service for people living in isolated rural areas outside large towns where ATMs might be readily available. It is important that we recognise that is one of the goals of the Bill. It will also give people a choice so that it is not a requirement to use tap and go, have a card or be fully proficient in online banking. Many people across the country are not, and they are not comfortable with cards. They prefer, and deal in, cash. It is only right and proper that people are encouraged and given the option to have that choice so that they can choose whether they want to use electronic banking or pay through cash.

One of the core priorities of the Bill, as I understand it, is to ensure the availability and preservation of cash infrastructure is set at the December 2022 level, which takes into account the fact that KBC and Ulster Bank have withdrawn from the market in Ireland. I accept the point that was well made by Senator Keogan that we must not do anything that will serve as an obstacle to extra banks coming into the Irish market and providing competition, which is very important. She correctly highlighted making cash available and the balance between allowing extra banks into the market and creating a barrier, while at the same time allowing cash infrastructure to be available, as matters we need to set the correct priorities for in the Bill.

I also want to illustrate my support for the section which deals with capping ATM fees. That can also be a barrier to making cash available. Placing a high premium on the cost of making a withdrawal and, in effect, creating a penalty for withdrawing from an ATM, creates a further barrier to the use of cash in the economy. It is only right and proper that the Central Bank and Minister are given the power to cap ATM fees, while at the same time recognising and excluding currency charges. If a tourist visiting the country is banking in a foreign currency and subsequently makes a withdrawal, the cost should not be capped for the provider of the cash and the bank.

I want to recognise the point made by the Minister of State in his speech on the contribution the post office network makes to people across the country in making cash available. I want to again make the public aware that people can bank through the post office network. The post office network provides an important service in making cash available, in particular for smaller businesses such as local pubs, restaurants and takeaways which operate in small villages and deal in an environment where they have a busy till and need to be able to lodge cash after a weekend following a busy trading period. The post office network offers that and it is important that is protected. If small businesses do not have the ability to lodge cash locally, that is another barrier to giving people and small businesses the choice to use cash.

Another point in the Bill I want to highlight is that provision is made for a review of the access to cash criteria by the Central Bank following each census if there is a 15% drop in cash demand year on year or, if requested, by the Minister for Finance. On choice, if it is the case that the public is choosing not to use cash, and that is reflected in the hard data, then it should be possible, and legislation should be flexible enough to allow for that eventuality. It is important that the choice is made available.

On the amendments accepted in Dáil Eireann on Committee Stage, amendment No. 4, permitting the serving of notices and documents by electronic means to and from the Central Bank, was accepted. It is important that if we are to move to a period of serving notices and documents that they can be done by electronic means. It might seem at one point to be promoting the use of cash while simultaneously promoting the use of electronic notices. I do get the sense of irony in that but it is important in 2025 that people can communicate through email, should they choose to do so.

My last point is that there are penalties in this legislation if a large bank is not following the requirements of the Central Bank and the Minister for Finance, to make cash available across the country, Those penalties should be severe and fully optimised in order that it is easy to enforce the requirements contained in the legislation. On behalf of the Fine Gael Group, I say that we support this legislation.

Senator Conor Murphy

I welcome the Minister of State. As we see an increase in the digitalisation of services in banking and finance, it is important that the Government keeps pace with this with legislation and regulation. There is no doubt that digital banking reduces the carbon footprint of journeys necessarily made to bank branches to do business and it is convenient for those who are competent in using digital services or who have access to Wi-Fi, but this does not relate to everyone in the country. It is important that when progress is being made in digitalisation, which I very much welcome, it does not leave people behind, isolated and separated from the ability to use those services. A recent survey carried out by the Department showed that 37% of people visit bank branches at least once a month. I think this is more the case in rural areas. As a rural dweller myself, like others who have spoken, I recognise that particular reliance on access to cash. The impetus in all of this is that continued access to services and to cash should continue to be local and convenient. I note the targets in the Bill to that end.

Senator Byrne made the point that it should not be on the basis of unfair charges. Those become a penalty. This may not be the case for people who live in urban areas and those who have more access to digital services and the ability to carry them out. They have been grappling with the same issue north of the Border and I have some experience with it. It is a smaller geographic area but 95% of people there have free access to cash and to cash deposit and withdrawal services, within one mile in urban areas and three miles in rural areas. A number of pilot schemes have been carried out, some involving Bank of Ireland, to provide banking hubs in more rural areas. Such pilot schemes have been carried out in some of the smaller towns in County Down. This is something the Government and the Central Bank might consider in terms of collating those services and providing that for people.

Some certainty is required in the legislation regarding future services, to make sure that closures are mitigated or regulated against to make sure that banks, as they digitalise and reduce the number of staff and branches, still recognise the need for access to those services across the country. They are an important part of how we do business. It is not just about the right of access to cash and services; it is also about the right to use cash. We do not want to get to a situation where businesses begin to introduce card-only policies. Some of the problems related to continuing the digitalisation have been outlined by Senator Keogan and other speakers. The idea of a cashless society might be a tech dream but I do not think it is either necessary or wise. The dependency on the use of cash is more related to poverty than to age. We do not want to get to a situation where vulnerable people become even more vulnerable because of that dependency and their ability to use or access cash being interfered with in the context digital services.

While it is necessary to keep pace with changes in technology and digitalisation, it is very important to protect some of the fundamentals which other Senators have outlined in terms of ensuring there is fair access to cash. There should be an understanding that this will continue to be a requirement for many people. We should continue to protect those services. The banks and the financial institutions should understand the view of the elected representatives in this regard and should work with the Government and the Central Bank to ensure that this provision continues.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Noel Grealish)

I thank Senators for their warm welcome. I was in the House yesterday and am here again today so I hope it will be my last time today to come in. I am covering for the Department of Finance. I thank the Senators for their constructive engagement and support of this important legislation. As I set out in my opening remarks, the purpose of this Bill is to put in place a framework in order that the future evolution of the cash infrastructure will be managed in a fair, orderly, transparent and equitable manner and to require ATM operators and cash-in-transit providers, CITs, to be authorised and supervised by the Central Bank of Ireland. This will ultimately ensure that significant and effective access to cash will be available in the State in the future.

Cash is important to people in all walks of life and it is also a necessity in different contexts such as cyberattacks, payment network issues, power outages and extreme weather events. We saw recently in Ireland with Storm Éowyn, particularly in the west of Ireland, where we were out of power for nearly a week in some cases and where there was no access to cash in some places. People could not use card machines so it was important that people had cash. People helped one another out and that is an important issue. We also saw the recent power outages in Spain. It is important people have a small amount of cash. I am not telling people to have huge amounts of cash in their houses but it is important we have access to cash, particularly when it comes to situations such as that. Other kinds of uncertainty demonstrate the need for a consistent and reliable way to make a payment. This Bill will help to ensure cash is available both when people want it and when they need it.

The framework the Bill will put in place has a number of important features in this regard including a mechanism to address local deficiencies countrywide, information gathering and sharing between relevant bodies, and the setting of service standards for ATMs. To elaborate, where a person considers there may be a local deficiency in their area, he or she may notify the Central Bank of Ireland. The Central Bank will develop a process for assessing these notifications and addressing the deficiencies, taking account of the factors set out in the Bill. The Central Bank will also monitor and publish information relating to the cash infrastructure. The Bill also provides for the sharing of information between the Central Bank and the Private Security Authority, PSA, ensuring a clear overview of the cash system.

The Central Bank will make regulations requiring ATM operators to notify it of proposed changes to their businesses or to notify it of closures of any ATM in circumstances beyond their control. Requirements for ATM operators to ensure appropriate service standards will also be set in regulations. These service standards will include hours of availability, maximum withdrawal limits, stocking of different denominations and signage and communication requirements. The combination of access to the cash criteria, the local deficiency framework, service standards and regulatory reporting will provide certainty for members of the public regarding the availability and accessibility of cash across the country. No doubt, this is a certainty that many will welcome.

In drafting this legislation, the Department of Finance sought legal advice from the Office of the Attorney General at all stages of the process. The Office of the Attorney General assessed, among other matters, whether the proposed legislation met the principles of proportionality, objectivity and being in the interest of the common good. The assessment considered whether the legislation is suitable to achieve the desired end, necessary to achieve the desired end and does not impose a burden on the individual that is excessive in relation to the objective. The opinion of the Office of the Attorney General was that the objectives of the legislation were consistent with the Constitution with regard to the common good. The legislation has been carefully drafted to avoid imposing an excessive burden on those concerned while still achieving its goals. The Bill was also drafted in such a manner that the process of identifying the designated entities as fair and transparent and there is scope for review in the event of a change to the Irish banking market. The access to cash criteria will be reviewed by the Central Bank following updated census figures, if cash demand drops by 15% year on year or if the Minister for Finance requests a review. The Central Bank may also conduct a review on its own initiative at any time. These reviews will ensure the criteria can be adjusted in response to changes in the demand for cash in the State and that the access to cash framework will continue to provide sufficient and effective access to cash in the future.

Ireland is not alone in introducing legislation of this nature. A collaborative access to cash solution from industry is the norm in several countries. For example, LINK is a nationwide cash machine network in the UK. Geldmaat is a similar entity in the Netherlands and Bankomat is jointly owned by the five largest banks in Sweden. Similarly, in late 2023, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission granted interim authorisation to the Australian Banking Association, its member banks and other relevant industrial participants to develop arrangements for maintaining the physical distribution of cash throughout Australia.

This legislation also dovetails with progress at European level. The European Commission shared a proposal for a regulation on legal tender in June 2023 to address access to and acceptance of cash across EU member states. The proposal places an obligation on member states to ensure sufficient and effective access to cash, to monitor and evaluate access to cash and to report to both the European Commission and the European Central Bank. This Bill aligns with the EU legal tender proposal and achieves its goal of ensuring cash is acceptable.

The EU proposal also sets similar requirements with regard to cash acceptance. Ireland has contributed to the discussions on the EU legal tender proposal at Council working party meetings since its publication. I anticipate the discussions will result in sufficient progress by the end of the Polish Presidency in June 2025.

In respect of the acceptance of cash, the national payments strategy, published in October 2024, set out a roadmap for the future evolution of the entire payments system. The strategy took account of developments in digital payments, the use of cheques and other issues and to guide how future changes should be made to the entire payments system. Future outcome 3.1 of the strategy set out that all Departments and bodies under their aegis will accept electronic and cash payments, or facilitate cash payments. In November 2024, the Secretary General of the Department of Finance wrote to all other Secretaries General notifying them of this recommendation. Future outcome 3.3 sets out that there will be a comprehensive overview of the national cash cycle environment that will inform policy thinking and formation in relation to cash and payments.

In conclusion, people prefer or rely on cash for a variety of reasons. Budgeting, privacy and security are still key benefits of cash despite trends towards electronic payments. ATMs still dominate how consumers access cash, with three out of four people, 74%, using ATMs most often for withdrawals. Older people have reported feeling a push towards online banking despite a preference for cash. The Department of Finance’s consumer sentiment banking survey, published in September 2024, found that in-person branch visits are the preferred preference among those aged 65 years or older, who are also more likely to spend a higher proportion each week using cash. The same survey also found that almost one in four people prefer cash as a payment method, a figure which rises to 50% of those aged 65 years or older. Age is not the only factor, however. Research published by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK last year found that digital exclusion and income levels have the largest effect on how likely someone is to rely on cash.

This Bill ensures that cash remains a sustainable and accessible option for Irish society as a whole and, in doing so, it protects people’s ability to participate in society. This is why I am pleased to present this legislation today. It will ensure that those who rely on cash can continue to do so. It will also establish a framework to ensure that cash infrastructure in Ireland can respond to changing demand in the future. I thank the House and its Senators for their contribution to this debate. This legislation was an important objective and I look forward to further discussion. I once again thank the Senators for their support. I also thank the officials for the tremendous work they have done in putting this Bill together.

Question put and agreed to.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 1.40 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 1.40 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.

Additional debate to follow.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Apr 2025