Seanad Public Consultation Committee debate -
Friday, 7 Oct 2022

Young Voices on the Constitutional Future of the Island of Ireland: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I warmly welcome the witnesses, visitors and Senators on this the second day of the public hearing of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the constitutional future of the island of Ireland. This process began in July when we invited members of the public to send in their submissions. We invited organisations and groups from all over the island of Ireland and beyond to do so. I sincerely thank all those who made submissions. We are lucky to have with us today Gunther Thurmann from Germany, who was involved in German reunification. He was a senior economist at the International Monetary Fund on the Germany desk during German reunification. He will give his insights into what Germany learned during that momentous time.

As I mentioned last week, as part of the public consultation process, we invited submissions from all over the island of Ireland and we were interested and anxious to get the voices of all traditions and all communities, particularly the unionist community, on their vision for the future of the island. Following on from these hearings, we will issue a draft report and the committee will review the draft report. It will then be published by the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Today's session is in two parts. From now until 1 p.m., we have young voices on the constitutional future of the island of Ireland. We have people from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, people from Foroige, people who have come from Derry and people from the National Youth Council of Ireland. We will also have a session this afternoon on public policy and economic opportunities and challenges. We will have two different sessions on that, one session from 2 p.m. to 3.45 p.m. and a second session from 3.45 p.m. to 5 p.m.

On behalf of the committee and all the Senators, I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have Blair Anderson from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, who will be speaking on the theme of housing and homelessness, we have Cohen Taylor, also from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, who will be speaking on the theme of education and focusing on integrated education, we have Zack Taylor-Clarke, who will be speaking on the theme of peace and reconciliation and we have Patrick Quigley from St. Columb's College in Derry. We also have Evan Foley from Foroige, who will be speaking on the theme of education and our constitutional future, we have Niamh Diver-Hall, who will be speaking on the theme of digital skills and citizenship, we have Karina Tropman, who will be speaking on the theme of support for marginalised young people, we have Ashling Dunlop, who will be speaking on the theme of housing and mental health, we have Eoghan Halvey, from the National Youth Council of Ireland, who will be speaking on the theme of healthcare and culture, we have Doireann Walsh, who will be speaking on the themes of education, culture and language, we have Kim Mufaro Justen, who will be speaking on the theme of ending institutional living on the island of Ireland and we have Eimear Nic Dhonnchadh, who will be speaking on the theme of the role of the Irish language in reconciliation and who will be making her presentation as Gaeilge. The witnesses are most welcome and I thank them for coming to Seanad Éireann and engaging with the members of the committee and the Senators.

Before I begin, I want to draw witnesses' attention to the following procedural matter. I would like to remind them all that there is a long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in a speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to identifying a person or entity, they will be asked to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with such directions.

I would like to remind the members of the committee of that practice as well. I would also like to remind members that they are only allowed to participate if they are physically in the Chamber. This afternoon one of the witnesses will participate remotely from the United States.

To commence proceedings in this session, I would like to make a few introductory remarks. I would like to thank the witnesses for the effort they have made and the time they have taken to put their submissions together. We will have questions from the Senators after the first four witnesses have spoken. I call our first witness, Blair Anderson, who is most welcome.

Ms Blair Anderson

I thank the committee. I am a youth support worker with the Northern Ireland Youth Forum. I work with young people sustaining housing tenancies. I have lived experience like many of the other young people I am currently supporting. I want to share with the committee a part of my journey, parts that I would wish on no other young person but to show gratitude for where I am today. Unfortunately, my revolving door started through no fault of my own. My parents struggled with quite a lot when I was growing up, which meant they ended up homeless. We were unable to stay where we were for a range of reasons which led to us needing support from services like the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. More than 20 times throughout my life I have seen hostels as homes. My family's problems were never addressed or recognised. Growing up, life was not easy. Having to deal with a challenging childhood, I did what most kids would do and rebelled. Aged 14 I lost myself and found myself 17 weeks pregnant. With referrals to social services, I did not have any idea what lay ahead. I had no support, I had no guidance and I had to figure out a system that was not sure how to manage my needs.

I went from foster placement to a bed and breakfast over 14 miles from home to a room in Women’s Aid, all within a year. I found myself aged 16 in Women’s Aid trying to support myself with absolutely no idea what I was doing. Please bear in mind in those two years not one person asked me how I was.

Coming away from this, I now had to manage my own lifestyle. I was fighting for extra rights for my child. I was being told that I was not an immediate housing need. I was being left in Women's Aid. Life was far from easy.

Fast forward to now. I have gained a career with the Northern Ireland Youth Forum where I have worked for three and a half years. I have gained a place on a community youth work degree. I have had an opportunity that has led me on a strategic path and I have had an input into policy and decision-making processes. I have had my voice heard and I have represented the voice of young people in many arenas.

The system is not broken. It was built this way. Young people leaving care have told us that family breakdown and substance misuse are the biggest impacting factors on a young person presenting as homeless. As we all know too well, these vulnerable young people are often in crisis. Too often, we see that young people in crisis are offered hostel availability that is miles away from their support networks, which has a severe impact on the isolation battle they are already facing.

Before you move into a hostel that is miles away from everything you know, you are now faced with four homelessness tests that you need to satisfy before you have your place. If you fail to prove your circumstances in one or more of the tests it could result in your place being at risk. Our systems are placing more barriers rather than helping. Young people living within hostels who are lucky enough to be in employment are also expected to pay rent, and no help is received if they work full time. Young people who are doing their best to maintain a normal healthy lifestyle and not depending on the system for financial support cannot afford to survive, especially today with the cost of living increase.

What would members do? How would they cope? How different would their life be if they did not have the privileges they have? The expectations placed on people with housing difficulties are overwhelming. Nobody preps young people for the reality of independent living. Being placed in a generic hostel comes with a lot of fear and uncertainty for young people. They often find themselves in situations where they engage in risk-taking behaviour and mix with people of influence. Young people can be placed within generic hostels for longer time periods due to the level of housing available.

The rising numbers of young people finding themselves on the street needs to be addressed. Young people North and South are facing the same challenges. They require the input and support of members. The committee should not forget about these young people. They have a voice and they have needs. They do not want to be in this position, but they are forced into this lifestyle.

Given some of our own personal experiences, we know that some properties are of a substandard quality. We welcome the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's, NIHE's, chance to rebuild but the homes many young people and people in general are living in are of poor quality with windows as old as the bricks, and they struggle to maintain the standards that are expected within their tenancy pack, and do their utmost to make their house a home. Having homes that are fit for purpose could put less strain on a service that is vital for a lot of people. One thing I feel very passionately about is the involvement of young people and the impact this can have on either side. Young people have expressed interest in wanting a say in the provision of good quality, affordable housing and having the stock to meet the needs and demand. I thank members for their time

Chairman

I thank Ms Anderson for her comments and the point she makes that the system is not broken, it is made that way. Clearly, the system needs to be rebuilt.

Mr. Cohen Taylor

In 2021 I was elected onto the trustee board of the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, and later elevated by our members to the role of youth democracy representative, a role in which I am privileged to serve today.

Equality, service, respect, reconciliation - these are the core values of my school, Lagan College. It is Northern Ireland's first planned integrated school, set up more than 40 years ago to bring Protestants, Catholics and young people of all faiths and none together under one roof, to learn much more than just English, maths and science. These young people learn how to live alongside one another and how to embrace their own culture while also, crucially, learning how to understand and value the background and lived experiences of their peers.

There are now more than 60 integrated schools in Northern Ireland, both those that were created as new schools and schools that went on a journey of transformation from state-controlled or Catholic-maintained status towards integration. On my election to the board of the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, I prioritised and focused my personal efforts on integrated education, more specifically lobbying for the passage of the Integrated Education Bill, now the Integrated Education Act (Northern Ireland) 2022.

I attended a state-controlled primary school that was influenced by the Protestant faith. When transitioning to secondary school I came to the decision with my family that I wanted to attend a school that I believed would reflect the diversity of culture, traditions and political thought that spans across Northern Ireland. Recent statistics published by the Belfast Telegraph state that more than 70% of parents want their child to attend an integrated school, yet fewer than 10% of children have access to a place in one. The integrated sector has the lowest number of empty desks of any educational sector across Northern Ireland and, furthermore, has some of the highest application numbers that exceed capacity.

When I was transferring to secondary school, I received a letter in the post from the Education Authority in Northern Ireland to inform me that no school from any sector to which I had applied could offer me a place. At the age of 11, the education system failed me in one of its most basic duties, to provide me with a place in any school I had applied to, due to oversubscription, increasing demand and underinvestment. In August, after appeal, I was able to gain a place in Priory Integrated College, a school where I was privileged to spend five years learning in an environment that enabled young people to accomplish more together.

The Integrated Education Act (Northern Ireland) has placed a strengthened and renewed statutory duty on the Department of Education and the Education Authority to "encourage, facilitate and support" integrated education. The overall political will is there and the funding is there, now what is needed is a fully functioning government in place to take action to create more spaces in more integrated schools, so young people no longer receive letters telling them they do not belong.

As young people, we have been asked to set out our personal views on the constitutional future of these islands, whatever the future holds; whatever arrangements are in place; the realities of the past; the need to build bridges; to have the tough conversations; agree to disagree, and to compromise. These are the crucial components that are required. The need to pursue reconciliation, to actively promote peace, will always remain.

I was one of the lucky ones. By chance, I was able to receive the kind of education that every young person should have access to. For many young people, the present education system can feel more like a postcode lottery than the supposed prioritisation of school choice that many local politicians claim to support. Young people need hope, opportunity and meaningful choice. Young people need access to education that prepares us for later life, gives us real social mobility, and not just a promise of better but the tools to build it ourselves.

I wish to end by posing a simple question: if education does not prepare you to interact with young people of other faiths, genders and cultures; does not encourage critical thinking and peer-led debate; and does not foster reconciliation day in, and day out in a post-conflict society, is it really education at all?

Senator Victor Boyhan

Well said.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Taylor. His question at the end is a challenge to all politicians and society in terms of creating an education system that works for everybody. I now call on Mr Taylor-Clarke.

Mr. Zac Taylor-Clarke

I am a member of the Northern Ireland Youth Forum executive committee and I am a trustee of the organisation. What is reconciliation? What does it mean and has Northern Ireland, Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland really understood the concept of what it means to reconcile our differences? For myself, our community is made up of people with different opinions. The very concept of peace building is about helping people to resolve their differences peacefully and to prevent future violence. Do I think this has been fully achieved since the Good Friday Agreement? No. However, are there avenues that fulfil the Good Friday Agreement? There are. If the committee takes me, for example, I am a Protestant, British unionist from east Belfast speaking in the Seanad today, and I have been able to reconcile the peace that was created for my generation. I think I have, but that only happens through programmes like this - the Northern Ireland Youth Forum. Through the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, I have found that young people want to end the division in our society in communities, housing, education and other public services. Young people do not want to be separated due to their religious beliefs and people in power should work together to understand their differences and celebrate that.

As a teenager from the Protestant, unionist and loyalist, PUL, community, I did not meet my first Catholic and nationalist friend until I was 16, only two years ago. Northern Ireland is practising reconciliation in name only. It has become a soundbite in British and European politics for the past two decades. The only way I gained a sense of perspective was through youth work. Through my own extensive conversations, I know the past is told differently to people from all communities. Accepting one another's views is not reconciliation because, trust me, I strongly disagree in that department. Rather, it is about listening to and understanding one another’s upbringing and beliefs to further your own perspective. Currently, that is being achieved only through organisations such as this one that seek to create a better and brighter future for us all. From my personal perspective, peace building is a two-way street. We cannot learn from the past if we do not understand the past. My generation is having to pick up the mess of the past and properly reconcile our differences now, 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement, ensuring the main objective is to respect one another's cultures and identities rather than glorify the atrocities of the past. If we are truly committed to the Good Friday Agreement, we will find the solutions to deal with these issues and prevent the next generation from having to commit to them now.

In light of the cross-community work of my friends and colleagues in the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, we have key asks as a starting point, such as more funding for youth work to increase representation from unrepresented communities, investment in safe spaces to talk about peace building, legacy and our identity, and allowing young people to speak directly to people in power about the power of peace building. That final point speaks volumes, in that the real work is being done by young people who are shaping the future and success of Northern Ireland, and that is the true future of Northern Ireland and us all.

Chairman

I thank Zac. As he pointed out, listening and understanding are some of the key acts of reconciliation. I now invite Patrick to make his opening statement.

Mr. Patrick Quigley

I have come to speak on behalf of St. Columb's College in Derry about how we can best make progress towards the reunification of our island. As a young person and a child of the Good Friday Agreement, I believe it is our imperative our views form the foundation on which the movement towards the unification of this country is built. The future of Ireland's youth hinges on the foundational steps being taken in this Chamber as we speak.

I worry, however, that recent events have soured this debate. The current discourse regarding a united Ireland has been dominated by the most recent data from census 2021, where, as I am sure everyone is aware, Catholics have outnumbered Protestants in Northern Ireland for the first time. I implore this committee and the people of Ireland not to make any assumptions that a united Ireland is somehow more inevitable or that it has become substantially more likely. It is this kind of dismissive, tribal attitude that will kill the dream of unification. The people of Northern Ireland, be they nationalist or unionist, young or old, will strike down the idea of unity without hesitation if the most important economic and political bread-and-butter issues that matter to them are not resolved before a Border poll is even called. In the words of the late John Hume, "You can’t eat a flag". Superfluous cultural issues must not take precedence over the economic and political issues. I believe strongly that the issues that animate the modern youth of Ireland are the bread-and-butter economic they face, or could face, in a united Ireland.

For young people to contemplate a reunified Ireland, the Republic must attempt to resolve the housing crisis before the voting youth can feel secure that their economic future in a united Ireland is tenable. On 1 August this year, only 716 homes were available for rent in the entire country. This disproportionately affects young people in the Republic and adds a new dimension to the already-difficult cost-of-living crisis plaguing the country. A radical, progressive rate of tax that increases exponentially in line with one's wealth would swell Government reserves and could finance the construction of more social housing for the general population. Some progress has been made with the Housing for All initiative to alleviate the undersupply problem. Sky News has quoted the strategy's detractors, however, who have stated that 14 of the planned targets have gone unmet. This must be resolved before a referendum can even be called.

A united Ireland will be met with hostility if there are no plans in place for how an all-island health service can be set up, and the infrastructure that grounds this hypothetical health service must be in place before a referendum can occur. A unified, integrated health service would also alleviate the crippling hospital waiting times on both sides of the Border and ensure that waiting times for ambulances were lower, provided the Irish national health service were well funded, on an all-Ireland basis, with a progressive tax system and higher tax rates for wealthier citizens. There have been promising commitments under the Government's Sláintecare initiative to lower health costs, but the people of Northern Ireland will not vote "Yes" in a Border poll unless they can be assured these costs will be eliminated.

A recurring theme here relates to the importance of an unprecedentedly progressive system of taxation in making a united Ireland viable. Without more money at the Government's disposal, it simply cannot accommodate Northern Ireland, especially considering that in 2021, Northern Ireland received a record £15 billion subsidy from London. A new Ireland must be able temporarily to match this until a sustainable economic arrangement can be found, not just for Northern Ireland but also for all the regions of Ireland that are economically dependent on Dublin. These regions must be able to stand on their own two feet in order for the entire country to thrive collectively.

To avoid the calamities of the Brexit referendum, a Border poll must be held with new, radical and innovative methods. For a united Ireland to work, it must make use of the innovative minds of Ireland to create a never-before-seen constitutional wonder that is prosperous, pluralistic and industrious, and that holds the Good Friday Agreement to be sacrosanct. A united Ireland must provide a home for all of Ireland's people, especially now given that within the Twenty-Six Counties, one in six people is now an immigrant. As Ireland develops into a modern, multicultural and tolerant society, so too must its Government and Constitution. The Good Friday Agreement must be held alongside the Constitution as a foundational document of a new Ireland.

I commend the Seanad on making these preparations now and listening to the Irish people. Such open-mindedness and the accessibility of these public consultations will form the backbone of any drive to reunify Ireland. Done right, the reunification of this island will be a seminal moment in our generation’s lives and for generations to come, and we can revive the Celtic tiger.

Chairman

I thank Blair, Cohen, Zac and Patrick for their contributions.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank all our guests for their comprehensive submissions, which very much echoed what we heard during the opening session of our meeting last Friday. Key issues and recurring themes included, in their words, diversity, inclusion, integration, accomplishing more together - that is a really good line - choices in education, social mobility and access to supports for people suffering from homelessness. That is very important.

I am a Senator but I am also a Protestant southerner, for want of a definition. I have never felt threatened or undermined in any way in the Republic. It is a wonderful place to live. I reflected on what Cohen was saying about education. I attended only a multidenominational community school, where all traditions, all colours and all shades of opinion were educated together, and I pay tribute to my educators. It fed into my own beliefs. I am an active member of my Church of Ireland community - I am open about that - and I am a politician, and there are others like me in these Houses of the Oireachtas. This is an open, welcoming and inclusive Parliament, and I reassure our guests and anyone listening to the debate in that regard. We play a meaningful role, as do politicians in local government, and it is a warm, welcoming and inclusive place. The Ireland of 20 years ago is not the Ireland of today; ours is now a liberal, inclusive, comprehensive and supportive community and country, and that is important to say.

Blair stated that the system is not broken but was built in this way. She might elaborate on that.

Education is clearly a huge issue. Having listened to Cohen and the young people who appeared before the committee last week, I know that education and choices within education are the key.

Perhaps the witnesses will talk a bit about their friends in the context of accessing education and how critical education is in opening up our minds and leaving ourselves open to being more inclusive in our own lives. Will Ms Anderson and Mr. Taylor share those points with us?

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I join with Senator Boyhan in welcoming all the representatives here. I thank the four people who spoke. The people I have heard were outstanding.

I will hone in on two contributions, and I am sure my colleagues will have questions for Ms Anderson. I support all of Senator Boyhan's comments and I will not repeat most of what he has said.

Like Mr. Taylor, I am a product of a co-educational school, which is the wonderful St. Aidan's Comprehensive School in Cootehill. It was very important because I went to school at the height of the violence and conflict in Northern Ireland. We had all religions and all social classes, rural and urban, all under the one roof there. We had a very progressive and modern new teaching staff, which was a pioneering concept then. It was a wonderful experience. I agree with Mr. Taylor in everything he has said that it is a wonderful experience to be educated with other people. It is the essence of education to develop tolerance, awareness of others, and sensitivity to others. As Mr. Taylor said at the end of his contribution, education is meaningless otherwise.

Forgive my ignorance of this but we are all here to learn. Where is the integrated education Bill at now? What do the representatives know about that? How much do the witnesses sense among the public that they would go for integrated schools now? Is the development of momentum there? There is a good thing going here with Educate Together. It will be interesting to hear what the witnesses have to say on this.

A lot of what Mr. Quigley said resonated with me and it was very interesting. I agree with everything he said in that we must be gradual, that we have to be inclusive, and that Irish unity is not a zero-sum game. It is not about getting 51% or getting 52%. It is about getting way beyond that and getting a whole willingness and interest in unity, and a passion and agreement for it. When young people are talking to the witnesses what kinds of concepts or structures would they like? Young people are part of Ireland. What way do young people see themselves being fitted into a united Ireland? Do the witnesses have any ideas on that? Do not worry if not but if they do I would be interested in that.

What are the things that Mr. Quigley's age group find the worst about us, or what is it they fear about us, rightly or wrongly? I take Senator Boyhan's point. The Senator is such a broad-minded person and he says what his good experiences were here. That is not the point. The point is, what do the young people think is bad about us?

Senator Frances Black

I thank all of the representatives. They are very welcome here today. All of the presentations were just fantastic. As I listened to all of the presentations today, a part of me wishes that the participants were sitting around the table in Government buildings talking to, discussing with, and advising our Government.

The first thing I will say is that Ms Anderson is an inspiration. She has come through so much in her life. It is a travesty that such a young person would have had to go through all of that. Yet, look at where she is today and the strength and resilience it has given to her. Now Ms Anderson is giving back and she is truly an absolute inspiration. I totally heard everything that Ms Anderson has said here today.

Mr. Taylor and Mr. Taylor-Clarke both spoke about education and integrated education. Mr. Taylor referred to equality, service, respect and dignity. They are powerful words. If we could all live by those four words life would be just so much easier. Mr. Taylor also said that fewer than 10% of people have access to integrated schools. This is horrific and very sad to think about. Reference was made to the overall will and funding being there. It really struck me when Mr. Taylor spoke about building bridges and agreeing to disagree. This is so powerful. It is about listening to each other, feeling what other people are saying, agreeing to disagree, but seeing how we can continue to work together.

If Mr. Taylor and Mr. Taylor-Clarke had a magic wand how would they see it working? What would they like to do to try to make it work? What advice would they give to the Government to say "This is what you should do"? Will Mr. Taylor and Mr. Taylor-Clarke give us four bullet points on how they think we could do it?

I totally and 100% agree with Mr. Quigley that it is all about planning and preparing properly, and particularly how we plan and prepare around housing, the economy and health. These are absolutely vital issues in going forward. What does Mr. Quigley think of the idea of a citizens' assembly on those issues? How would he see that working?

Chairman

We will take Senators Martin, Ó Donnghaile and Currie. Then we will have our guests to respond.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

Like the previous Senators, I thank all of the participants from the bottom of my heart for their wonderful contributions. Ms Anderson is brave, courageous, and so articulate. Probably the most difficult question for Ms Anderson is "How do we get more Blairs on the front line of Irish life and society?" I would like that. How can we facilitate more Blairs?

I loved Mr. Taylor's contribution. He said that he can embrace his own culture and that he has no insecurities in that regard. In a way, this is a trailblazer. I believe that we have learned so much this morning. We are enriched and privileged to hear these contributions.

I recently heard an Iranian lady, whose children are adults now, commenting on the current unrest there. She said that she has great confidence in the young generation and that it was bubbling up also with the parents. In a sense, subconsciously the children are saying "No more of that." They have learned from the lived experiences of the previous generation. It is now the very young women who are leading on the front line and the barricades in Iran today. It is quite incredible how they are putting their lives in danger.

I took a lot from Mr. Taylor's speech. He made a very good point about how we must solemnly commemorate, and that there is a big difference between "commemorate" and "celebrate". Let us forget for a moment what the end picture is. Whatever the end picture is a prerequisite is reconciliation. I am deeply concerned if people lose their lives. It is very sad and we must give people space to commemorate. If that crosses the line to "celebrate", it could be perceived as glorifying slaughter. It could do huge damage to reconciliation because the immediate family or siblings of the people who have died are with us and alive. Maybe we all have to step up, including politicians and others in such positions, to try to call that out, whatever tradition it comes from.

I loved the phrase used by Mr. Quigley on the "tribal attitude that will kill the dream of unification." I hope that all of the participants here go into politics. It is a tough business. I would love them to be in the Green Party.

Senator A

Are you offering jobs?

Chairman

I must cut the Senator off.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

If not in the Green Party then I must be selfless here because there is a bigger picture than the Green Party and Ireland comes first. I would like our guests, as formidable people-----

Chairman

There is no canvassing of the witnesses. We will not allow recruiting.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

They may well beat the Green Party out the door but it would be good for Ireland.

Chairman

Application forms are available at the Senator's headquarters.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

I thank each and every one of the participants. They are inspiring.

Chairman

We are leaving very little time for our witnesses to respond. I call Senator Ó Donnghaile.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. We are in the early days of this discussion and without meaning any disrespect to other contributors, the strongest voice in the process thus far has been that of young people.

Senator Frances Black

Hear, hear.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I do not say that to throw rose petals at our witnesses but because they are giving a different perspective that is important to be heard in this Chamber. It resonates with us because we are here regularly.

Important as all the contributions were, one thing that struck me was that every one of the speakers could have been from Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Cork or wherever because the experiences of young people right across this island are so similar. There is a societal appetite for a change for the better, whether in the context of the change we are discussing around our constitutional future or change in regard to the climate emergency, climate justice and our economy, and that appetite for change is being driven, in most instances, by young people. That really chimed with me.

I agree with Patrick that a huge amount of planning needs to be done. That planning should have started yesterday, last year or ten years ago but, as of now, it needs to start as soon as possible. Alongside that need for planning, there is the question of what is stopping us from doing the practical things now on this small island. Patrick is from Derry and will be aware of the nonsense whereby the Wild Atlantic Way stops at Donegal instead of continuing along the Causeway Coast and glens. Similarly, the route of Ireland's Ancient East stops in Louth and does not go up through south Armagh, to include all the mythology of Cú Chulainn, Downpatrick and its association with St. Patrick, and the north coast and the history of Fionn Mac Cumhaill. All of that is crazy.

The situation is likewise when it comes to the housing crisis. People could be facing a housing issue on one side of the Border and cannot avail of the social housing they need a couple of metres down the road on the other side of the Border. It is crazy. We have learned from the Covid crisis that viruses and science do not recognise borders. Why are we not doing much more around that and doing all of the things for which the witnesses are advocating? I would be keen to hear how, in the here and now, politicians and institutions of the State can collaborate better and more with young people. That type of collaboration is always helpful. It is brilliant to have Zac, a fellow east Belfast person, in the Chamber today. It helps the process of reconciliation to flow much better if, as Senator O'Reilly rightly said, we understand each other a bit more and we work together and collaborate.

Senator Emer Currie

I agree with my colleagues that the standard of the contributions has been incredible. It shows once again that the people, especially young people, are ahead of the politicians. Reference was made to the importance of getting the Assembly up and running. We talk about how we can work more closely together on North-South and all-island issues and that is not helped when the institutions are not running. They should not be used as a political tool whereby any party can pull itself out of power-sharing even though there are so many problems to sort out. It is great to hear there is consensus among the witnesses in that regard. The Good Friday Agreement is sacrosanct and it is the thing we always come back to because it works. No matter what is going on, we always need to find our way back to the agreement.

I have a few points to make in response to each of the contributions. I had goose bumps listening to Blair's contribution. She is an example of what happens when we empower people and give them a voice.

My question for Cohen is why change has been so slow and why it needed the Integrated Education Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 for change to happen. I did the 11-plus examination and it is clear that this examination is gone in name only because selection is still happening. Why has that not changed?

I could not agree more with Zac's comments on reconciliation. I put the question to young MLAs at a meeting of the British-Irish Association as to what reconciliation means to individuals. It means different things to different people. For me, it is about empathy with different viewpoints. However, if people are going to glorify actions and atrocities that hurt the person with whom they are supposed to have empathy, then the empathy is lost. That is not doing enough in terms of reconciliation. I completely agree with Zac on that point.

Patrick spoke about the bread-and-butter issues. I completely agree we need to work on them, which is why I am so pleased to be part of this committee. He is right that it is dangerous to say something is inevitable because doing so takes away the choice and the idea of consent. Going back to what Blair said, it removes the ability to empower people to be part of that process. For me, it is about offering the choice respectfully and not saying, "This is happening whether you like it or not".

Chairman

I return now to our guests, beginning with Blair.

Ms Blair Anderson

I thank Senators for all their comments, which are greatly appreciated. Senator Boyhan spoke about the system being built the way it is. It goes a lot deeper for me than housing but that is the topic about which I am passionate. In the North of Ireland, we have a points system whereby people can get a house. Young people are struggling to articulate their difficulties and struggles and some are blind to what has been happening to them. We are setting young people up to fail from the get-go because they are not meeting the standard targets and doing the tick-box exercises they need to do to get a property.

There are so many barriers placed before young people, from access to benefits to no support for those who go out to work. There is no support for young people who do not do well in mainstream education to go somewhere else and get the teaching they need. We are not taught from a young age how to manage and sustain a lifestyle. Our education system is failing young people. For me, that is where it starts. It starts with education and goes from there. If we are not preparing young people for how to deal with and challenge decision-makers and policymakers and to have an input into things, we are setting them up to fail. We need a system that gives equality for all. It does not matter if you have mental health or substance misuse issues; you should have the option to get a property. The issues in the North at the minute are diabolical even if you do not have a mental health problem or a child to look after. Access to housing is very limited. That is the way the system is built. The Government is putting systems in place that are failing young people and other generations.

Mr. Cohen Taylor

I love the magic wand analogy. If I had a magic wand, I would reform the Good Friday Agreement, as was done in 2014 under the Stormont House Agreement. Under that agreement, £500 million was earmarked for integrated education. As of earlier this year, only around £60 million of that had been spent. If I had a magic wand, I would create a new agreement based on voluntary coalition that said every party in Stormont will have a seat at the table but if they do not wish to take up that seat, everybody else will form a government without them. We cannot sustain a political system whereby one party on any side of the community has the right to hold politics and people to ransom. That would be my magic wand point.

Regarding the Integrated Education Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, I was privileged to give evidence on that to the Stormont education committee. As with all legislation, there was back-and-forth engagement and it was a long process, but we got there. The word settled on to expand the 1989 order from the Department of Education was "support". The statutory duty placed on the Department included that additional word, "support". What we really need now is an Minister of Education and a Department of Education that will act on that and support integrated education. I do not believe you need to force any type of education on any young person or any family. I think young people and parents organically will choose integrated education if the places are made available by the Department.

Mr. Zac Taylor-Clarke

I thank Senators. Senator Black was talking about integrated education and put a question to me. I come from a different perspective. I think I speak for a few people in Northern Ireland when I say we have grown up with a divided system in terms of selective education with the AQE and the GL. There are three or four different avenues to go to school after primary school. There are controlled schools, Irish schools, private schools and integrated education, etc. I want one education system because that is the only way people can be unified on the basis of their beliefs, values and morals. A divided system does none of that.

As I said in my opening statement, I was 16 years old only two years ago. I met people at the North Ireland Youth Forum who changed my life and perspective. They allowed me to become more knowledgeable about their experiences in Catholic-maintained and Irish schools. Their experiences were completely different from mine. That allowed me to reconcile the differences in my upbringing in east Belfast with that community.

Senator Currie mentioned the process of reconciliation. I strongly agree with her assessment on empathy. That is extremely important. We are now seeing more division in Northern Ireland today than we saw more than 20 years ago. It baffles me. It is good that young people are coming to speak to the committee. I know there are similar things going on in Westminster and if the Assembly was up and running, I hope similar things would be happening there too. I reiterate that reconciliation has become a sound bite used by a lot of people over the past ten to 20 years. The process has not even started for many people. It takes the time from birth to the age I am now to develop one's points. I identify as British and unionist but I have no problem coming to speak to people who differ from me. I disagree with Mr. Quigley, for example, but I respect his views. That is not something you would hear from my community, the members of which take the attitude of repeating "Never". The only way the process of reconciliation can happen is if all of us are in the same place at the one time to understand one another.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

Well said.

Mr. Patrick Quigley

I thank Senators for their questions. I completely agree with Mr. Taylor-Clarke and Senator Black. Issues on which we can collaborate should be discussed at a hypothetical citizens' assembly. That would be essential to any process of unifying Ireland. We must be able to incorporate people, such as Mr. Taylor-Clarke, from a Protestant, unionist and loyalist background. We must incorporate their views on how we can make a better Ireland for everybody.

Senator Joe O'Reilly asked how we can incorporate Northern Ireland. There are three main paths. We can take a federalist approach, whereby each of the four provinces have their own parliaments that are subordinate to a Dublin parliament. Devolution is another option. That would match the situation we have now, with a devolved parliament in Stormont. The least likely option is the way it is now, that is, a unitary government in Dublin. I will not name names but certain MLAs in Stormont would need to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Dáil. We need to collaborate more through, for example, citizens' assemblies. We all need to work together and push for a united Ireland. If a united Ireland is cooked up by bureaucrats and politicians and the people are asked to vote "Yes" or "No", the people will say "No". The process needs to include the citizens for there to be any chance of a united Ireland.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Well said.

Chairman

We will move on to our next four contributors. I call Mr. Evan Murphy from Foróige, who will talk about education and our constitutional future.

Mr. Evan Murphy

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the opportunity to speak. Over the past two years, many young people's lives and futures have been impacted

heavily by disruptions to their education and training. This has been a truly unifying experience throughout the whole island, North and South of the Border and across communities. It has been an experience that ties us together.

I was in fifth year during the onset of the first lockdown and it was a significant shock to the system for me and my peers. The loss of learning we experienced, coupled with prolonged periods of isolation and uncertainty regarding how we would get through our leaving certificates, will surely be of consequence. That said, we did get through it. However, the skills we need to offset the negative impacts of these disruptions must be cultivated, going forward. Currently, this is not sufficiently addressed in the school curricula of either the North or South of the island. These soft skills, such as empathy, teamwork, problem solving, critical thinking, communication and conflict resolution, will be essential for the young people of the island of Ireland in further developing this previously demonstrated resilience and optimising their employability. These are also the skills that are needed in us all, young and old, to bring about a better constitutional future.

Through a combination of formal and non-formal education, a robust social toolkit may be developed that will be invaluable in the discussions on the prospect of constitutional change and the possibility of reunification between our two nations. This will undoubtedly be a complex and emotionally charged process and, therefore, ensuring young people, who are our future leaders, can put these skills into practice, move beyond division and navigate these topics with nuance, consideration and compassion is nothing less than essential.

How might we bring together the two school systems in the case of reunification? The way education is structured, the curricula themselves and the values and conventions of each system are significantly different on either side of the Border. Of course, both are predicated on denominational education and, therefore, religious segregation. We must consider whether it is possible to reconcile this going forward. With a focus on pooling resources, ideas and skills, and involving young people in the process, the greatest outcome possible for the young people of this island may be achieved. That could be a dual system in which the leaving certificate and A-levels are recognised equally or an outright merger and the creation of something new and truly fit for purpose that reimagines what education can and should be for young people in the 21st century.

The recently announced changes to the leaving certificate, particularly regarding the new marking loads, are promising in that they have the intention of alleviating the pressure and crunch of the two-week period of examinations. Perhaps we should go even further and reconsider whether exams are the most appropriate way to assess learning and development for young people in general.

In respect of the handling of the 2020 and 2021 leaving certificate examinations, many students felt let down by the Department of Education’s decisions and how they were communicated. Since then, the Department has recognised the impact on students and teachers. The provision of new leaving certificate subjects, such as drama, film and theatre studies, and climate action and sustainable development, indicates a move towards greater flexibility and choice of subjects, an appreciation of young people’s talents and interests, and an attempt to support their desire for a better future. It is this effort to engage with, respect and nurture the passions and new ideas of young people that will need to be the focus of change in the coming years. Our education system must give young people the tools to deal with civic and political issues, such as the constitutional future of our island, and, most important, enable them to enjoy fulfilling and productive lives.

Looking back on the pandemic, and turning toward our constitutional future, we must take stock and allow experience to inform how we proceed. We owe it to young people to think big. We have a prime opportunity to create a more equitable yet no less ambitious system - a system that meets the needs of young people and is inclusive for all on our island. We must use the precedents of education as a foundation for positive change and not a ceiling.

I again thank the committee for the invitation to speak.

Chairman

Ms Niamh Diver-Hall will talking about digital skills and citizenship.

Ms Niamh Diver-Hall

Good morning to the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. I am 18 years old and from County Donegal. As we look ahead to our constitutional future across this island, embracing everything that the digital world has to offer could enable us to radically reconsider how we interact with one another and how we can come together in spite of our differences.

Not only this, but it can help to open up opportunities where young people can expand their horizons, and create their own future.

Successive lockdowns over the past two years have led to a massive change in how we communicate with others as we were completely dependent on technology and online platforms to stay connected, continue to work and participate in school. As a young person from a rural area, I know just how difficult it was for people to access technology. I was fortunate enough to be in a household that was able to buy laptops for three children but I know this was not possible for many people in my area. Being from a DEIS school also meant we did not have the resources to send out school devices to everyone, only to those who needed them most. The lack of resources and infrastructure in rural areas greatly disadvantaged young people at a time of urgency. It is my hope that any future constitutional change could address this rural-urban digital divide to support local communities across Ireland to thrive. Due to this lack of access to technology and reliable broadband, many young people in rural areas were left feeling isolated and alone, which led to a decline in mental health. It really affected me to see some of my greatest friends' mental health deteriorate because of this isolation and I could do nothing to help them. I found it difficult to get through the long days of not seeing people other than my family. One of the things that helped me to get through this period was the Internet and the amazing youth groups that adapted to online settings.

One of these was the VRóige project run by Foróige. This group uses virtual reality, VR, to connect people all over the country in a safe and facilitated environment. While in this programme I developed skills such as communication, problem solving, critical thinking and how to be safe online, as well as more practical skills like using the VR headset and navigating different platforms. Unlike being online for school, which was long and stressful and left me struggling to understand the work, VRróige let me escape from the stresses of life, make new friends, and have fun. If it was not for groups like this I do not know how I would have managed the lockdown. They gave me a reason to look forward to every day and a way to meet new friends from across the country and connect regularly on topics I care about when we were all stuck at home.

Online spaces like these could be vital to the constitutional change of this country as they provide a safe and neutral space to bring young people together from different communities and to help lessen the tensions and divides that still exist across this island. These groups are so immersive and inclusive to all people, no matter their disability and health needs, geographical location or social anxiety issues. Digital skills and spaces are important to this conversation, because they will be vital to young people as we go through school, college, and work and they will help to increase our employability. It is important that young people are supported to develop the skills that we will need now and in our futures.

There is a fear that the digital world is dangerous, negative and toxic for people young and old. That is why it is so vital that we prepare young people from an early age with the skills they need to navigate it in a safe and positive way as responsible digital citizens. The subject of our constitutional future is divisive and online platforms often make these debates more polarised but they do not have to be so. They could be positive spaces for developing understanding. This is why it is important that we support young people to use digital tools respectfully and responsibly. I thank committee members for listening to me today. I hope that I have shown how we can use digital and virtual approaches to prepare young people positively for their futures and for the future of this island, whatever it may hold.

Ms Karina Tropman

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for inviting me to speak today. I am a 21-year-old from Mayo studying a BA in government at the University of Galway. The true measure of the success of any modern society is how it treats its most vulnerable and marginalised members and this must be a central part of the conversation as we look ahead to our constitutional future across the whole island of Ireland. The word "marginalised" refers to an individual or community prevented from participating fully in social, economic, and political life due to a lack of access to rights, resources and opportunities. Growing up I found myself categorised in two ways: Karina the foster child and Karina from Foróige. It gives me immense pride to be referred to as the latter. The word "marginalised" is not a term I could ever associate with being a young person in Foróige.

However, the same cannot be said for my experience of being a child of the Irish State. I entered foster care in 2008, where I remained until my 18th birthday, after which I transitioned into aftercare. Aftercare is a service provided by Tusla to aid young people in the transition from foster care into adulthood and independent living. It is a service I am extremely grateful for, as without it I would not have the means available to further my education or frankly survive in our current economy. However, it is vital that mental health support is urgently put at the forefront of this service. I have had a unique but not unusual experience in care, being moved from numerous homes, schools, counties and even provinces, all of which is incredibly difficult for a child to cope with and adapt to. The most stressful of these transitions happened during my leaving certificate year. I was informed two weeks before the academic year started that I would be moved into an apartment to live alone during this already stressful period of my life, as I had turned 18. I was also told that I would be transitioned from child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, to the adult service. However, this never happened, and I was yet again let down by the State.

In March 2020, when Covid-19 struck and we entered lockdown, I reached a crisis point. I have always struggled with my mental health, but this was a new low. I was left isolated for months on end with little to no communication from the agencies that are meant to support me. The support I received from my teachers was put on hold in light of predicted grades. Although I am eternally grateful for the help I got from my friends during this time, I felt I could never unload the truth about my deteriorating mental health to them. These were fellow 18- and 19-year-olds without the qualifications necessary to deal with the trauma and abandonment I was going through, nor should it have been their responsibility. Two years later I see no end in sight for those struggling. After a breaking point in my mental health on 1 May this year, I reached out to a nationwide service dedicated to helping the young people of Ireland, and the first available appointment was for 21 October, nearly six months later. This is frankly unacceptable.

The latest figures show there were 5,860 young people in the care system as of May 2022, and, in Northern Ireland in 2021, that figure was 2,857 young people active in foster care. It is the duty of the Irish Government to ensure that the resources are available that will enable these young people to find the confidence, knowledge and life skills necessary to survive independently and thrive. We cannot take for granted that young people will pick up these skills by chance or through a family structure that, unfortunately for many does not exist. Basic life skills programmes can equip my generation with the resources necessary to prepare them for whatever challenges life may bring.

At the core of my personal growth and development was feeling part of my community. It gave me purpose and encouragement and shaped me into the young woman I am today. Throughout Ireland we pride ourselves on the strength of our communities but we cannot say that we are truly working together if those communities do not adequately support those most in need. Today’s discussion of our constitutional future is an opportunity to reflect on the values and beliefs we hold most dear as a society, where the most marginalised individuals are at the heart of the future we want to build, and the legacy that you, the people in power, want to leave behind.

Chairman

Thank you for sharing your story, Karina. Your journey reflects on what Blair said; that the system is not broken but that it is built that way. It is important that we address that as part of building a better future, whatever that future is.

Ms Ashling Dunphy

I wish a good morning to the Cathaoirleach, the committee members and my fellow young people. I am 21 years old and I am from County Tipperary. I will speak about housing and mental health; two issues which go hand-in-hand and are common across this island, north and south of the Border.

According to the Government’s June 2022 monthly homeless report, 10,492 people were recorded as homeless, including 3,071 children and young people. We must also remember that this figure does not include the number of people who are described as hidden homeless. These 10,492 people call Ireland their home but they do not have a house of bricks and mortar. Instead, they are cast away into hotels, bed and breakfast accommodation, family hubs and hostels. Inadequate, overcrowded emergency accommodation is not a long-term sustainable solution to this crisis. These people need homes of their own along with community support and access to amenities.

I cannot represent a young person who is homeless, but I can say that life on this island for many young people is already a struggle. The added social barrier of homelessness has a major impact on the general well-being of young people. The housing crisis has a serious impact on mental health. It leaves people in a state of uncertainty. This is made worse by inadequate service provision for mental health, with overly long waiting lists and services stretched beyond means. We have children attending adult psychiatric hospitals due to the lack of services across the Republic. We only have three eating disorder beds. With a population of 5 million that is growing - it is the youngest population in Europe - this is simply not enough.

When I was growing up, mental health was a huge part of my life. My grandmother, nanny Lily, was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Now, at 21, I can understand the effects that a lack of services can have on the individual, the family unit and those close to the person. The psychiatric hospital that my nanny attended was closed in 2008 and was not replaced. This reduced the services available for people in Tipperary. Yet, Tipperary has one of the highest rates of deaths by suicide in Ireland. I have experience with both CAMHS and the adult mental health service, having been diagnosed with general anxiety disorder and clinical depression. I was very lucky to be able to access the services I need but, unfortunately, that is not the case for everyone. Often, it is community organisations that are left to pick up the pieces.

The current mental health situation is a crisis. It is not something a cup of tea and a chat can fix, nor should it be left for charities to deal with. We need professional services that include dual diagnosis run by trained experts who can provide the necessary interventions. No young person on either side of the Border should have to stand in a guard of honour at the funeral of a friend who could not access emergency mental health care. Last week’s announcement of €1.149 billion for mental health provision in budget 2023 was great news, but there are fundamental issues that funding cannot fix. We need to question why we have so many professionals leaving this line of work. We must ensure that they are paid good wages, are supported in their work and are given opportunities to grow and develop in their practice.

A lot has changed in the past century, but we have to ensure that we are not leaving those on the margins of society behind any more as we look ahead to our constitutional future. We must be open to discussion about what affects people across this island. Our elected representatives have a duty to serve the interests of all members of society. These are issues that the North and the South are facing in the here and now. Without properly addressing these issues that materially affect people’s lives, how can we have a chance of developing understanding and consensus across communities and across the Border so that we can begin to consider our constitutional future? In order to achieve change, we need to take both of these issues seriously by speaking to those most affected and developing social policies to create an Ireland for all.

Chairman

I thank Ashling for sharing that all-too prevalent problem of housing and its impact on people's mental health. I will hand over to Senators. I will reduce their time to ten minutes each in an effort to ensure we hear more from our contributors, who all keep to their time, which is not necessarily the case with our Senators.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I will have to try to show a good example on this.

Chairman

The Leas-Chathaoirleach will show a good example.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I will do my best. I am delighted to welcome the people from Foróige. I have huge respect for that organisation and what it does. That has been enhanced today. I am also glad to see Mr. Seán Campbell and some of his youth workers here.

I will quickly address a few questions to the speakers whose contributions, it goes without saying, were excellent. My first question is for Evan. I am a teacher by background and the continuous assessment system can be very oppressive for young people. In some respects, as regards the traditional leaving certificate examination, we need to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In other words, there is a lot of merit in the leaving certificate system, although it does not suit some. Continuous assessment can be oppressive and very restrictive all the time. Evan might comment on that.

I am interested in Niamh's reference to VR. She might explain a little more how that works. Despite my apparent youthfulness, I am a little out of touch with that.

The last two contributions, around marginalisation, homelessness, housing and mental health issues, were wonderful. It took great courage for the speakers to give their own personal testimony and I admire them for that. I will raise two points. I am concerned about and, as the Chairman will know, have raised the issue of CAMHS on the Order of Business a few times. I am concerned about the waiting list to access CAMHS and the overcrowding of those services. I ask the contributors to comment more on that, without going through their personal stories as they have been very good on that, and how they think CAMHS works for people when they access it. How long is the waiting list for that? A great deal needs doing there.

Student accommodation on campus, and more of it, is a major part of dealing with the housing issue.

Chairman

I thank the Senator.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I do not know how good an example I set.

Chairman

It was better. We will improve as the day goes on.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Evan, Niamh, Karina and Ashling for their contributions. I will focus in particular on Karina and Ashling if they do not mind. They shared with us, and touched a raw nerve with us, as regards their lived experiences, which were very powerful. We have listened and heard. We have had similar representations in the past about CAMHS and mental health. These contributions are very powerful, especially when they come from people's lived experience. I thank Karina and Ashling for that. It is not easy to share an outpouring of their own issues without getting terribly emotional about them, but they certainly struck a chord with us. We promise them this issue is something we will pursue.

I have one question for all the speakers or whoever would like to contribute. They will have heard of Gaisce, the President's Award, and the Duke of Edinburgh's Award. For so long, we have had two different organisations doing the same thing in both parts of the island of Ireland. In recent years, the Duke of Edinburgh's Award has agreed that people in the South can consider and pursue it and, vice versa, those in Northern Ireland can pursue Gaisce. There has been much more take-up on that. If any of the last three or four speakers are familiar with or have been involved in those programmes, they might share that experience. I believe those programmes are very positive and I would like a unified awards system. They might share their experiences with us.

Senator Emer Currie

I thank Evan, Niamh, Karina and Ashling. I totally agree with Niamh about digital transformation. I do a lot of work on creating digital first workplaces so that we can allow people to work remotely, empower our local villages and create hubs and opportunities throughout Ireland. This democratises the workforce and is better for equal opportunities and for people who have difficulty in accessing employment. If Niamh wants to get involved in that, I am happy to talk to her about it.

The predominant theme of this session has been mental health. I am so sorry that Karina was abandoned like that. At her age, she should not have to navigate that experience, or the system, alone. I am so sorry she went through that alone. It is a testament to her that she is here and telling us this herself.

I admire her strength and resilience. We have a major problem when it comes to the shortage of therapists. People need to understood the process psychologists have to go through to become qualified. There are barriers in the system and we need to address that. This is something I raised in the Seanad only this week. I am involved with a charity called Social Anxiety Ireland. Social anxiety is a problem that people who have it will not talk about because it is about the fear of judgment. We run 14-week courses for adults with social anxiety and we have started doing them for teenagers as well. The courses bring together people with social anxiety around cognitive behavioural therapies to give them the tools to accept what they have and help with their behaviours. If anybody is interested in that I can give them information on it to share with their networks.

Senator Frances Black

I thank the witnesses for their presentations this morning. The participation of the young people here is hugely important to our work in Leinster House and in Ireland's future. Hearing their voices, I am just blown away. Evan's point about the limitations of the curriculum is so important. High-stakes testing takes a real toll on students' mental health. That is a theme here today. It leads to a very narrow conception of academic success. What kind of exam alternatives would the witnesses like to see?

The VR project Niamh spoke about sounds fascinating. Digital literacy is vital in our modern economy and in creating safe spaces and an attractive alternative to the very chaotic and potentially harmful spaces that currently exist. This might be an older person's question so forgive me for this. Do the witnesses have any worry that young people already experiencing too much screen time and that moving social spaces online could further limit old-fashioned in-person socialisation?

Karina and Ashling are both amazing. I agree with everything my colleague Senator Currie said there. It is horrific to hear what they have gone through. That should not be happening today. I am Chair of the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health. After hearing the stories and presentations today, I would like to invite Karina and Ashling to come before our committee as part of our work. We have dealt with this issue in that we have had CAMHS and the HSE come in but I am not sure we have ever really had these voices, and we need to hear them. I would invite somebody like Blair from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum to come in as well. The more young people's voices we hear on this issue, the better. I will follow up on that going forward. I thank the witnesses so much. They are so brave. Their courage today will help others to speak out, which is vital.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Beidh mé sciobtha gasta. I again thank the witnesses for their presentations. Evan made the point that things like empathy, understanding and dialogue are soft skills. They are really important skills, particularly on this journey and in this debate. We know that from our experience of peace-building and conflict resolution. They are key so it was good to hear Evan reference their importance.

I am interested in hearing more from Niamh about the use of digital space as a platform for peace building and reconciliation. That can reach young people in a new way. I agree with Senator Black's point that there is nothing like in-person work, particularly with youth work, but I would be keen to hear more about that.

Everybody has said what needs to be said about Ashling and Karina's contributions. They are making the argument for change for me. They are making the argument for why the systems North and South are broken. They have not worked and are failing people still. That is why we need to reimagine something new for everybody. That is true with regard to the witnesses' experience and experiences we have heard about beforehand.

Maybe the witnesses can ask Foróige and others about this on our behalf. I would love to hear from someone who has lived in and grown up in direct provision in of these sessions.

This has been really useful and important. I cannot thank the witnesses enough. This reaffirms our duty, regardless of where we fall on this particular question, and that things need to change and change for the better. The only way will do that is if we do it together.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

Senator Black very appropriately used the phrase "blown away". You cannot beat that but I would add to it that I am bowled over. The witnesses' inner strength is just phenomenal. I loved Evan's reference to a change of curriculum. Maybe that should involve climate studies and studies on reconciliation. Niamh spoke about the core value of inclusive groups, which is vital for young people. Karina said there is no place for marginalisation and Ashling noted there are fundamental issues that no funding can fix. This raises the bigger question of how we can really move on if we are leaving people behind. It is so difficult to move on. Maybe we should get our house in order around such fundamental issues, North and South, before looking at the bigger picture. Maybe that is slightly controversial. The witnesses hit such a heavy hitting note today. Maybe we should be healed mentally and in a better place and space before we look at the bigger picture.

Chairman

I thank all our speakers in that session. I call Evan to respond.

Mr. Evan Murphy

The questions and comments are much appreciated. Senator Joe O'Reilly asked about the pros and cons of the leaving certificate examinations or continuous assessment. The leaving certificate is a very concentrated amount of pressure. That does not necessarily mean it is worse than the pressure of steady continuous assessment. In my experience in school, the people around me were fairly unanimously in favour of more continuous assessment. That is not to say that is how all young people feel. If nothing else, the Department of Education should have explained to us how it discussed the issue, used data, looked at what people were saying and looked at the effectiveness of the leaving certificate as continuous assessment or the two-week period of examinations. Even just a communication of why the decision has been made in that way or why it felt one way was better than the other would have been good. We can appreciate that a choice has to be made but people would be much more appreciative of it if they understood what went into the decision itself.

Senator Black asked about good alternatives to the leaving certificate examinations. I am definitely more of a talker. Oral exams in languages have been around a long time but they could potentially be used even for something like English. People have to interpret the text or whatever they are reading in a different way but they may be less comfortable writing about it in such a pressured situation. They might be much more comfortable sitting down and just getting out what they feel about it or discussing it in a more open and less structured way. That kind of thing might be able to demonstrate their affinity or understanding of the material in a more lateral or versatile way than just exams or CBAs.

Ms Niamh Diver-Hall

I am excited to be here talking about VR. It is something that has greatly changed my life and I see a huge benefit and change in myself from using it.

I like to compare VR to dreams. When you dream, you can imagine a world. It is so creative. It can be anything. It is similar to virtual reality but you can actually experience it. You remember it. You can structure and change it. It gives you so much power.

Senator Black asked if I have any worries about whether people experience too much online. It all depends on how you use technology and being online. Personally, I do not think it is too much if we use it in a way that develops skills like critical thinking and problem solving, which are so important to our lives. We will use them in work and school. If we can control how much time we spend using technology and being online, it is not too much. The VR group that I am in has one-hour meetings. They are enough for what we need to do. If we have more control over how much time we spend online, it will not be too much.

I thank Senator Currie for her comments. I believe that technology improves employability and helps rural areas. When people think about technology and the Internet, they think about young people playing games but during Covid we were using it for online meetings and work. Technology does not have to be all about fun; it can be but we can use it for other things. We could use it for work. We can help people to stay in rural communities if they want to and not have to move to big cities to find work. This can help small communities to thrive.

Ms Karina Tropman

There was a question about CAMHS and how it works. Reforming CAMHS is essential. I was 12 or 13 years old, in my first year of secondary school, when I first met a CAMHS adviser for an evaluation. I was told I was lucky that I was born into poverty because I can appreciate the value of a cup of coffee. I was told there was no way I could be depressed because of my involvement in youth work. The youth work I was involved in through Foróige and things like Gaisce got me involved in my community. It was the one thing keeping me in a positive mental health space. It gave me friends like Ashling whom I have had for years. We have lived together and are now a core group. Ireland's national children's mental health service told me I was lucky to be born into a position like this. It is not acceptable at all. You are just let down time and again. You are promised services and funding. I understand that it is there for the entire youth and people of Ireland. People are promised dates but they should not bother saying that if it is not going to happen. There is no point in filling children, in particular, with false hope that there will be light at the end of the tunnel before discarding them aside. Groups like Gaisce are very important, especially when you feel quite marginalised. I got involved in Gaisce when I first moved to my second secondary school. It was key to developing friendships and relationships with the girls in my year and feeling somewhat wanted or a part of something. It was brilliant. There needs to be more done around prevention when it comes to mental health. The Government needs to look seriously at funding youth work. I have been attending different conferences for years. The young people in Ireland have done nothing but explain how these services benefit us and how they help to prevent decline in our mental health but in 2018 we got a €2 increase in our budget. That is really where the Government needs to look when it comes to preventative work around mental health.

Ms Ashling Dunphy

I reiterate what Karina said about CAMHS. I was given worksheets at the age of 15. I was a 15-year-old who wanted to save the world and they asked me questions like whether I went out to play, whether I did my homework and whether I ate my lunch. I thought, "I am 15; what do you mean, do I go out and play?". I found it really frustrating. I researched it and found it was cognitive behavioural therapy suitable for eight- to 12-year-olds so 15-year-old Ashling decided that she would just not engage. I am taking a year out from studying community and youth work in Maynooth. It might be naive of me but I do not think it is not the professionals' fault when that is all that is available to them. They have young people with various serious needs but they are stretched beyond their means, they are tired and they are burned out. Youth work and community services generally become what they are not meant to be- those involved become the counsellors. CAMHS might tell me that they will not see me because I am an adult but a youth worker will never turn someone away. We need to start looking at that because youth workers will start walking away - they will say that they are not paid for this and that what they are being asked to do is not on their job description. We need to look at that as a whole. Myself and Karina are 21 now. We have been advocating on this since we were in transition year. If we are not having the same conversations, it is a conversation about emigrating. That is the reality. It is not very positive but that is the reality for young people in the Ireland of today.

Chairman

I thank everyone for sharing their thoughts and views on a range of very important topics. We now move to our next session. Eoghan Halvey will talk about healthcare and culture.

Mr. Eoghan Halvey

My name is Eoghan Halvey. I am 17 and I am the chairperson for the National Venture Representatives of Scouting Ireland, one of the largest youth organisations in Ireland. I am honoured to have the opportunity to speak hear today on a topic that has become a conversation on most people's lips recently: the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland unifying politically. It is surrounded by many questions from healthcare to a new national flag. This afternoon, I would like to cover the cultural benefits and issues in a possible unification, the problem of how to deal with the different healthcare services and an all-island approach to climate change.

Irish writer Frank McCourt once said “Ireland, once you live there, you are seduced by it”. From the North to the South of our island, it has so much to offer from our natural beauty, our ancient sports and our culture in music and dance. These cultures are celebrated worldwide but all originate from the one little island in the Atlantic. While on the political side we are divided, from Malin Head to Mizen Head lies a country of beauty and nature. This shows that despite political situations in the past, Ireland has and Ireland always will be famous for its beauty. From the Cliffs of Moher in County Clare to the Giant's Causeway in County Antrim, we have taken advantage of our beauty and made the island as a whole a brilliant tourist destination. I feel that we as an island should keep this up as the beauty of our country should be seen by people from all around the world.

In addition to this beauty, our island already shares historical cultures. The playing of hurling and football is a major tradition in every county across the Ireland, and these sports are already united under one organisation, the GAA. While in the 20th century, playing hurling and football was seen as showing your religion and political view, it has developed more into celebrating the culture of not only the Republic of Ireland but the island as a whole. A similar point can be made about Ireland's history in rugby: we are currently ranked the number one country in the world and not as the Republic of Ireland, but as simply Ireland, with people from the North and the South together to represent our island. They may sing a separate national anthem but together they play with pride and passion leaving everything on the pitch for their country.

The preservation of our rich culture is something that must be taken into account when discussing the possibility of reunifying in any form. This is due to the many social and economic benefits it creates for our country, from the spirit of community being seen around the inter-county championship to people travelling from all around the world to attend the world championships in Irish dancing. That contributes enormously to the hospitality industry.

While there are many cultural similarities, there are also many differences. The head of state is also different in both countries. The Republic's head of state is President Michael D. Higgins and the North's is King Charles III. This is another major cultural issue that surrounds reunification. One solution may be a dual head of State given that there must also be an idea of Britishness linked with the idea of Irishness.

Another issue surrounds the 12 July parades. Traditionally, these parades were riddled with sectarian conflict but nowadays, they are family orientated, with children off school, and are a time to relax. However, a small proportion of people in the North still use them as a time of violence. My sister, who lives in the North, returns home every 12th like many Catholics due to the history surrounding the day, but if Ireland is to unify, this day should still be celebrated as apart of Protestant culture. While it is not as big as St. Patrick's Day, they are very similar, with parades, music and festivities. Socially, the youth of Ireland has developed into respecting other areas' traditions and, although most young people of today are brought up with the ideology of a united Ireland instilled in their mind, respect is shown for everyone's culture.

A survey conducted in 2019 revealed that 56% of people would be opposed to a united Ireland due to the healthcare system possibly changing. In Northern Ireland, medical visits are covered by the UK National Health Service free of charge, while in the Republic, a GP visit costs €60. This is a major issue that must be carefully considered when discussing a united Ireland. Whether it means temporary healthcare for the people of the North during the transition or a complete overhaul of our healthcare system, both would require perfect economic planning to pull off. Even if our countries do not reunite in my lifetime, we should still be unified on certain aspects of healthcare such as cancer treatment and research, stroke services, transplant services and even mental health services, given these issues could benefit the entire island if an all-island approach is taken instead of an all-Ireland approach.

On the topic of an all-island approach, a non-negotiable feature of a united Ireland must be the battle against climate change. Climate change is a problem that has been around for many years, and while it may not affect the current generation, it will definitely affect our future generations, throughout both Ireland and the world. Our target of net-zero emissions by 2050 is, thankfully, shared across our island and Northern Ireland also hopes to make 80% of power in the country renewable.

Both countries together must take big steps for our future. If unification is to happen, we need to build on the peace treaty of the Good Friday Agreement and ensure the idea of unification is one decided by the people and for the people. An all-island referendum will be required and it will not be a decision made by a government alone. Under no circumstances can our peace be jeopardised.

Chairman

I thank Eoghan and invite Doireann, also from the National Youth Council of Ireland, to talk about education, culture and language.

Ms Doireann Walsh

My name is Doireann Walsh and I am 15 years old. I am a third-year student at St. Brogan’s College in Bandon, County Cork. I am involved with Youth Work Ireland through the youth participation panel. As someone who grew up in west Cork, the history of our island has been an important part of my life ever since I was in primary school. The question of our shared island’s future is one I have thought about a lot. Today, I would like to acknowledge some of the challenges and opportunities we face as a shared island. The challenges I will discuss relate to education as well as language and culture. These are two significant issues for me as a young person in Ireland today.

Both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have strong cultures, including the language, religion and traditions of both countries. When we think about our shared island, it is easy to think about the differences between the cultures of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I think everyone, no matter their culture or background, should be given the opportunity to express their culture and the things they love about it. Our culture is also what can unite us, as even the flag of the Republic shows, with the green representing Catholics, the orange representing Protestants and the white representing peace between the two groups.

Language is another challenge. While Irish is spoken in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the language is not used as much in the North. As of the 2011 census, 64,847 people there spoke, read, wrote and understood Irish. About 4,000 people used the language as their home language. There are Irish-medium schools and Irish can be taken as a GCSE subject, but I would like to see Irish being encouraged in schools. I understand, however, that there are people in Northern Ireland who come from a more Unionist background, who may be apprehensive about learning Irish. This is completely understandable, but my vision is that everyone be given an equal opportunity to learn Irish if they so wish. It would not be fair to force the language on those who do not want to learn it. I also do not want people to forget about their identity, be that Catholic or Protestant, nationalist or unionist. All I would like to see is people appreciating the differences and similarities between their cultures and those of others.

This leads me to the issue of education. The education systems in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are similar in some ways but there are some differences. Students spend eight years in primary school and six years in secondary school in the Republic of Ireland and seven years in primary school and seven years in secondary school in the North. The state exams form another difference. Students in Northern Ireland sit GCSE and A-level exams, while students in the Republic take the junior cycle and leaving certificate exams. Students should be given a well-rounded education that meets their needs and sets them up for the rest of their lives. Both education systems should take the better parts of the other and implement them. This will set up the leaders of tomorrow with the best outlook on our shared island and the world as a whole.

Finally, where do young people come into all of this? Being involved in the youth participation panel, I have seen at first hand how important it is for young people to have a say on the topics that will affect their futures. Having your voice heard is an amazing feeling and I think all young people should be given that opportunity. Being with other people when we have been given the opportunity to share our voices, seeing somebody's eyes light up when they have had their voice acknowledged, watching plans unfold from one idea, watching adults learn what is like to be a young person today and that feeling of being listened to: these are the things I love about youth participation. Young people deserve to have a powerful voice on the issues that affect them. Therefore, I ask that there be continued engagement with young people on the important topic of the future of our shared island.

Chairman

I thank Doireann and now invite Kim, also from the National Youth Council of Ireland, who is going to talk about ending institutional living on the island of Ireland.

Ms Kim Mufaro Justen

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for this opportunity. I am originally from Zimbabwe. I came to Ireland in 2017 and am based in Limerick city, where I recently completed my level 8 degree in social care work. I am working part time as a youth worker with Limerick Youth Service. Today I am representing Youth Work Ireland and the National Youth Council of Ireland. My main objectives today are to share my opinion on what the future island of Ireland should look like, what it needs to address and the rights it needs to protect, as well as to focus on the public policy and economic opportunities and challenges of direct provision and how it impacts young people.

Direct provision is a mechanism used by the State for people seeking international protection and was created in April 2000 due to the high numbers of people seeking asylum. Applicants are dispersed throughout the country and provided with accommodation, usually in the form of a shared room in a designated centre as well as meals and an allowance. People who live in the designated centres are known as asylum seekers. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, website states that an asylum seeker is someone whose request for sanctuary has yet to be processed. It also states that every year, about 1 million people seek asylum, fleeing from their country of origin and looking for a place of safety because their own country cannot keep them safe. As asylum seekers, these people are protected by international law and can seek to be accepted as refugees in their host country. The Geneva Convention of 1951 guarantees their right to seek refuge and requires host countries to care for them while they await a decision on their status.

In Ireland, which has traditionally been a country of emigration rather than immigration, the subject of asylum seekers has received little attention. Young people suffer mentally, socially and emotionally while they are living in direct provision because of the way the system was designed. It is not intended for people to be comfortable but rather to be always on their toes, nervous and uncertain about the process of their international application because it takes so long for the Department of Justice to give its reply.

Every asylum seeker and every other being in society has the constitutional right to security and to be heard under Irish law.

If we are planning for a future shared island, it is essential to know what not to bring with us into this future we are planning. The direct provision system should be revisited and given more attention. This is because the waiting periods for processing and approval of asylum seekers are just too long. This leads to mental health issues that affect young people and families to a great extent. It is therefore essential to provide youth work and other services as these play a key role in providing support to young people in direct provision.

My hope for a future shared island is that we prioritise the discussion of the White Paper to end direct provision. As the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, stated: "As a Government, we committed to end Direct Provision and replace it with a new system that would be run on a not-for-profit basis and centred on human rights’". It is essential that all asylum seekers on the island of Ireland are treated with dignity and that young people are consulted and are part of the process of ending the direct provision system. If the White Paper is in place, accommodation will be own-door for families and provide the privacy and independence so many were not afforded over the past two decades. Single people will have own-room accommodation, ending the shared dormitory-style rooms associated with the current system.

As a young migrant person, I have hope for the future of the island of Ireland. I will end in Shona and say maita basa, thank you.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mufaro Justen for putting together her thoughts on an aspect of Irish society that, like many of the aspects and systems that have been discussed here, is not just broken but was never made to work in the first place. I call now on Ms Nic Dhonnchadha from the National Youth Council of Ireland, who is going to speak about the role of the Irish language in reconciliation.

Ms Eimear Nic Dhonnchadha

Is beatha teanga í a labhairt. Labhróidh mé ar ról na Gaeilge sa gcomhrá faoi athaontú na tíre. Is scoláire mé atá 15 bhliana d’aois agus a dtagann as an gCeathrú Rua i gConamara. I mbliana, tá muid ag comóradh 100 bliain ó bhunaíodh Saorstát Éireann. Nuair a tháinig an Saorstát ar an bhfód i mí na Nollag 1922, bhí athbheochan na Gaeilge ar cheann de phríomhchuspóirí an Stáit. Caitheadh am agus dua le scéimeanna a chur i dtoll a chéile a chuirfeadh bonn níos fearr faoin teanga. Cinneadh go mbeadh an teanga ar fáil do chuile dhalta scoile sa tír agus, go deimhin, go mbeadh sé éigeantach í a fhoghlaim. Cuireadh Coimisiún na Gaeltachta ar bun i 1926 lena raibh i ndán don Ghaeltacht a phlé. Faraor, ní raibh mórán rath ar iarrachtaí an Stáit agus níor tharla an athbheochan.

Mar thoradh ar bhunú an tSaorstáit, cuireadh bonn níos láidre faoin gcríochdheighilt agus faoi Stát Thuaisceart Éireann. In ainneoin traidisiún fada na teanga ó Thuaidh den Teorainn, mar thoradh ar nádúr seicteach an Stáit ó Thuaidh, rinneadh chuile iarracht an Ghaeilge a chur faoi chois. Ó shin i leith, faraor, tá an teanga luaite le pobal amháin sna Sé Chontae agus leas bainte ag polaiteoirí ó gach taobh aisti mar armlón nó uirlis le beag is fiú a dhéanamh den phobal nach mbaineann sí leo ina gcuid súile.

Anois agus comhrá ar tí tosú faoin gcineál Éireann a bheadh i stát nua aontaithe 32 chontae, tá deis ag an teanga a bheith lárnach sa bplé. Ní bhaineann sí le ceachtar traidisiún ar an oileán; is linn ar fad í. Ba chóir í a úsáid le haontas a chur chun cinn. In 1994, dúirt an t-aontachtaí mór le rá, Christopher McGimpsey ón Ulster Unionist Party, "There is no reason, theological or otherwise, why a Protestant should not, or could not master Irish.” In 2019, nuair a bhí an sárú polaitiúil faoin Acht teanga i mbarr a réime, bhí an méid seo le rá ag ceannaire an Democratic Unionist Party, Arlene Foster: “Let me be clear, it is not incompatible to be an Irish-language speaker and a unionist.” Ní fada ó labhair Linda Ervine ón eagraíocht Turas in oirthear Bhéal Feirste le Seanad Éireann. Rinne sí cur síos ar an méid saibhris atá aimsithe aici ó thaobh a cúlra féin mar aontachtaí ó thosaigh sí ag foghlaim na Gaeilge.

Níor cheart go mbeadh an Ghaeilge riamh luaite le pobal nó traidisiún amháin sa tír seo. Faraor, tharla sé sin ach tá deis anois ann an botún a cheartú. Má tá suim dháiríre ag polaiteoirí den uile chineál inti, bíodh siad gníomhach ina cothú agus ina neartú.

Cuirtear an Ghaeilge chun cinn i measc chuile dhuine. Is seoid náisiúnta í ár dteanga ar cheart dúinn ar fad a bheith bródúil aisti. Is laochra iad na daoine a labhraíonn í chuile lá agus a chuireann chun cinn í. Ba chóir go dtacóidh muid leo. Ná bíodh sí ina hábhar magaidh nó gránach ar aon ócáid. Bíodh sí ina comhartha den chineál tír oscailte ba mhian linn a bheith againn, ina gcuirtear fáil roimh an uile dhuine ach ina léiríonn muid bród trínár dteanga.

Luaigh mé seanfhocal i dtús mo chuid cainte, is é sin, is beatha teanga í a labhairt. Ba chóir go dtabharfaidh muidne, mar shaoránaigh, agus na baill, mar pholaiteoirí, an tacaíocht sin di, ní trí chúpla focal a labhairt ar Lá Fhéile Pádraig ach trí iarracht dháiríre leanúnach an tseoid a chothú agus a chaomhnú ar fud ár n-oileán i measc chuile dhuine.

One hundred years on from the partition of Ireland, only one solution has ever made sense. The idea of abolishing the Border and reuniting Ireland has stood the test of time and remains the only logical option a century later. People have given their lives for this ideology, this hope, this dream. A united Ireland would not solve Northern Ireland's problems and it would be naive to think it could but it would finally give the people of Northern Ireland a sense of identity. It would solve many economic problems such as cross-Border trade and would ease Westminster's headache in trying to rule the last remaining acres of its empire across the sea. It would give Northern Irish people access to the EU again and would slowly heal a broken community. The people of Ireland should be given a choice through a fair referendum without war or economic turmoil hanging over their heads. No matter how much the people of the Republic or of the mainland UK say otherwise, it is a choice that belongs to the people of the occupied counties and to them alone. There would, of course, be problems in areas such as currency, healthcare and language. It will take time, effort, money, resources, patience, will, determination, dedication and focus but I wholeheartedly believe we can become a nation once again.

Throughout history, Ireland has been an island of 32 counties. Not even a border has managed to change that. A reunification would not be unifying two separate countries but healing a broken nation. There is a reason Ireland was cast out to sea by itself and it was not to be split in two. Ireland is and has always been an island and we can take care of ourselves, all 32 counties.

Chairman

I thank Ms Nic Dhonnchadha for her contribution. We will now ask our witnesses to answer some questions. I remind everyone that we are supposed to finish at 1 p.m., which is in exactly two minutes, so I ask Senators to be brief. We have to do a technical call with the US in preparation for our next session at 1.15 p.m., although I do want to hear from all of our contributors.

Senator Joe O'Reilly

I will just ask questions rather than say anything to the speakers other than "well done". Sport could be such a unifying thing on the island. Will the witnesses elaborate on what more we could do to encourage more North-South sporting activities? I refer particularly to junior level and the less excellent levels, that is, just ordinary football and other games. That would encourage people to interact.

I agree with Ms Walsh. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is doing a lot in that respect but I would be interested in the witnesses' thoughts on how we could integrate more of the music across the island.

On Ms Mufaro Justen's comments, apart from the need to move away from direct provision, the big issue is how long it has taken to get people accepted and into the workplace. The jobs are there and there is a need for people. Why not process people much more quickly? Is the situation better than it was? People should be out of the system and into society quickly.

Tá ceist bheag ghairid agam d'Eimear Nic Dhonnchadha. Ar theip ar an nGaeilge éigeantach sna scoileanna ós rud é nach bhfuil an chuid is mó de dhaoine ábalta nó sásta an Ghaeilge a labhairt sa ghnáthlá? Ar theip ar an gcóras?

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I am glad that time has been given to the issue of direct provision and the experiences of people in direct provision. I was a member of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality, which operated during the previous term of the Oireachtas, and we visited a number of direct provision centres. Direct provision has no place in Ireland's constitutional future and no place in the present. Direct provision needs to be ended and replaced with a system grounded in human rights, international law and best practice. We need to think, in terms of these debates, about our international presence on the world stage and how we can act, and continue to act, as a symbol of solidarity and support for people around the world. In doing so within any constitutional change in the future, direct provision is not representative of that and, therefore, we need to hear all voices on how we not just change that system but to get rid of it and replace it with something much better.

Aontaím le hEimear ó thaobh mí-úsáide an teanga nó ó thaobh úsáide an teanga mar armlón. Ba uirlis í an teanga ar son athmhuintearais agus ar son aontaithe agus ba cheart dúinn díriú isteach ar an teanga mar ábhar cosúil leis sin. Dúirt Eimear gur chuala muid ó Linda Ervine ar na mallaibh. Is as ceantar s'agam féin í Linda agus cé go bhfuil muid ó chúlraí difriúla, ba é an rud a ghlac le chéile muidne ná grá fá choinne an teanga. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go bhfuil an Ghaeilge lárnach i bplé faoi todhchaí na hÉireann. Tá sé tábhachtach fosta go bhfuil pobal na Gaeltachta mar chuid den chóras seo agus go gcluinfimid cén fís atá acu don todhchaí, go háirithe nuair a smaoinítear faoin méid mí-airde a thug an Rialtas ó Dheas do phobal na Gaeltachta ar fud an Stáit. Gabhaim buíochas le hEimear as a ionchur.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

Two ingredients have jumped up and hit me in the face during this session in a very nice way - passion and hope. Passion is something that we do need in the future and I heard lots of passion from Eoghan and Doireann, who mentioned great research. I am so happy that Kim said that she has hope for Ireland and I have greater hope for Ireland after listening to her.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Hear, hear.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

Kim is facilitating hope. That is so important and finally there is Eimear. We have young people here but I want to mention one person who is not so young but has broken the mould and is a trailblazer, and that is Linda Ervine from east Belfast. Recently I visited Wales where all of the signs are bilingual. I believe that one only reinforces division by not allowing everyone to have a language. In my experience, and I must not take other people for granted, but in the South, as Senator Boyhan said, things are fine here. For example, a good friend of mine of 20 years is a Green Party county councillor on the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. His father recently died and at the last minute I was out in the Dún Laoghaire trying to find a church but I did not know whether I had to attend a church belonging to the Church of Ireland or the Catholic Church so I had to ring my office for directions. I did not know his religion as the subject never arose once in our friendship of 20 years, which is liberating to think about. It would be wonderful if we could get the whole island to think like that. That is the high standard we must reach and if we get there then we are in business.

Senator Frances Black

Eoghan spoke wonderfully about this beautiful island of ours. We all live on this stunning island. I ask him to speak more about how he thinks cross-Border co-operation could help us battle climate change.

Doireann and Eimear spoke fluent Irish and I am feel ashamed that I cannot speak the language as fluently as them. It is so beautiful to hear them speak one of the most beautiful languages in the world and I agree with everything that they said.

Kim is amazing and I totally agree with everything that she said. Direct provision is a deeply shameful aspect of Ireland's treatment of asylum seekers. In years to come we will view it in the same way we now view mother and baby homes.

I was a member of the same committee that Senator Ó Donnghaile mentioned and was part of the committee group who visited direct provision centres. What I saw on that day stuck with me for many months. I cannot imagine, particularly for young people, the impact that living in direct provision has on people's mental health. Living in direct provision is like living in a prison and the food that people get there is horrific. I believe that these centres should be not-for-profit if direct provision must happen, and I would prefer to see direct provision gone completely. Please God, direct provision will go soon and I would like to see it gone tomorrow. I would like the delegations to tell us how we can better support people, particularly young people, in direct provision.

Senator Emer Currie

I thank Kim for putting the important issue of direct provision firmly on the agenda today. I do not think anybody wants to see the direct provision system continue. Direct provision does not work and that is why we need to change it. In addition, we must look at it in the context of now and the bigger picture.

All the witnesses spoke with so much pride. It was good to hear that there is a need to compromise when it comes to a constitutional future and that we must ensure we respect each other's identities. As much as I might have a very strong sense of my identity, and I am proud of it, but somebody else can have a different identity yet be equally as proud. The census in the North shows the emergence of a more pluralist sense of identity and that is positive. We need to take that into consideration, yet be mindful and respectful of everyone's identities.

Mr. Eoghan Halvey

There is pre-existing unification in sport. There was a comment made about not knowing which church to attend for a funeral and that shows there is pre-existing unification.

To help sport to unify at a younger age, my friend is part of the Irish under-18 rugby academy and the academy travels all around the country, including to the North, because the sport of rugby is already unified. There is a great variety of sports played in Ireland and it would be great if they could follow the example of rugby. Of course, the GAA is already united with its inter-county championships and a lot of titles have been won by teams in the North.

I thank Senator Martin for his comments about passion because I am passionate on topics like this.

Another question was how can climate change be better if it is unified. Let us consider the FridaysForFuture strike in 2018 and strikes took place all around Ireland and all around the world. The initiative did get governments working. Some governments were completely oblivious to climate change but the FridaysForFuture movement did help. We need further strikes like that and further co-operation with our shared policies. For example, being carbon neutral by 2050 or Northern Ireland's renewable energy policy, which I do not think is shared in the Republic. Northern Ireland seeks at a minimum to source it energy from 80% renewable energy by 2050.

Ms Doireann Walsh

I thank everyone for their comments.

Senator O'Reilly asked about integrating Irish music North and South of the Border. A good way to do that is through schools. Traditionally, Irish music is quite heavy in its use of the fiddle and the banjo and music in the style of that produced by marching bands is more traditional in Northern Ireland. It would be a nice idea to have music classes in both the North and South whereby students listen to each other's music. Students of music analyse music when in class and, therefore, it would be a good idea if music students in the Republic of Ireland could analyse music from Northern Ireland more and students in Northern Ireland could start analysing music from the Republic more. That would be a good way to spread that music around.

Ms Kim Mufaro Justen

I thank the Senators for their comments and appreciate them having me here; it is a great thing in my life. I will try as much as I can to answer all of their questions in one go. I know we are a bit behind with time.

My understanding is that now with the current situation of direct provision, the waiting process is still there. I was in direct provision in 2017 and heard stories from some people who had been there for almost 12 years and they are still there. It is very important that we tease out what we, as Ireland, are supposed to do to reduce the time people are waiting in those situations because that will lead to mental health illnesses. You hears cases of people in direct provision committing suicide and we do not want that. We want people to understand that they are welcome and respected and they will be treated with dignity.

I have hope for the current discussion for the White Paper because the new system will change the whole narrative of the old system. It will give more protection to people and allows them to integrate into Ireland from day one with access to health, housing, education and employment. The system will also be grounded in the principles of human rights, respect for diversity and respect for privacy and families. Everyone wants privacy. I remember when I was in direct provision, I was sharing everything with someone that I did not know. In the new system, we hope that when others come to Ireland, they will not be sharing a room with someone that they do not know; they will have their own private section while they are waiting for approval.

Finally, how will we support young people who are living in direct provision or transitioning in direct provision, like myself? Youth work played an important role in my experience. Limerick Youth Service played a good role in my transitioning. In addition, we need to make sure we engage with people who are living in direct provision, so they are included in society and the Irish community and not excluded.

Ms Eimear Nic Dhonnchadha

Ní déarfaidh mé mórán; tuigim nach bhfuil ach beagán ama againn. Mar fhreagra ar an Seanadóir Joe O’Reilly, déarfainn gur theip Gaeilge éigeantach i scoileanna. Is Gaeilge a labhair mise sa mbaile. Tógadh le Gaeilge mé mar sin ní raibh orm í a fhoghlaim ar scoil, ach maidir le mo chuid cairde as cathair na Gaillimhe nó mura as an nGaeltacht iad, tá Gaeilge déanta acu ar scoil ó bhí siad ceithre nó cúig bliana d'aois agus is ar éigean nach bhfuil siad in ann abairt a chur le chéile. Múintear an Ghaeilge sna scoileanna ar bhealach nach n-oibríonn agus ní oireann sé d’aon ghasúr. Múintear an Ghaeilge, fiú dá labhraídís cheana féin í, amhail is dá mbeadh an teanga ar eolas ag na gasúir cheana féin. Ní mhúintear í ar an gcaoi a mhúintear Fraincis nó Spáinnis nó teangacha Eorpacha. Múintear an Ghaeilge ar an gcaoi a mhúintear an Béarla. Tá Béarla ag na gasúir ach níl aon Ghaeilge acu agus ní dhéanann sé sin aon chiall. Is cur amú ama agus airgid atá leis na ranganna Gaeilge. Caithfear an córas oideachais a bhaineann leis an nGaeilge sa tír seo a athrú le go mbeidh muintir na hÉireann in ann Gaeilge a labhairt agus í a labhairt le bród.

Chairman

I thank all our guests for their contributions. I thank the representatives of the National Youth Council of Ireland, the Northern Ireland Youth Forum and Foróige for their contributions on a range of topics that people need to think about and that need to be addressed in this discussion on the constitutional future of the island of Ireland.

Sitting suspended at 1.15 p.m. and resumed at 2.01 p.m.