Seanad Public Consultation Committee debate -
Thursday, 29 Feb 2024

The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

I thank members for their attendance for an ongoing discussion on local democracy. We already have had a public hearing on this in respect of public representatives and councillors from Northern Ireland and their representative body association, as well as with AILG and LAMA and public representatives from the Midlands-North-West European Parliament constituency. We will have further discussions with public representatives and members of the public from the Dublin area later in the year. After the local elections, we will invite in the leaders and secretaries general of the political parties to get their analysis of how the local elections went and to discuss the concern we all share that it is proving ever more difficult to get people to run for local elections and that this will feed into our national politics in the near future. This is not an Irish issue; this is a global issue. More and more people are leaving public service and that is of concern. There are a number of reasons behind it rather than one single reason. One of the tipping points has been the effects of social media, where people are no longer willing to be subject to the abuse it oftentimes entails but also in the sense of the effects that it has on families. That is one of the issues we hope to address.

This morning, I am delighted to welcome former Ministers and Ministers of State with responsibility for local government. We want them to give their insight into their time in the role and their observations since then, as well as the future of local democracy as they see it and ideas they have on how we can make it work for the next 100 years of the State. I am delighted to welcome Deputies Howlin, Ó Cuív and Phelan, as well as the former Minister, Noel Dempsey. I thank them for being here.

I have to read out the following statement to make sure we follow all procedures. I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in a speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on or criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

To commence the proceedings, Senator Cassells and I will make introductory remarks and I will invite each of the witnesses to make a short statement. We have nearly 100 years of service between the witnesses, which equates to the length of the State itself. Our concern is for the next 100 years and the ideas they have on how to make sure that local government works best for all the citizens of the State. I invite Senator Cassells, as the rapporteur, to say a few words.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank the Cathaoirleach and as rapporteur, it is a great pleasure to welcome all of our guests. As the Cathaoirleach has said, we already have had a number of witnesses before us including councillors from all over the country and public representative association bodies. These have included the Northern Ireland Local Government Association and councillors from Northern Ireland, particularly members of the unionist community. It was significant to have their voices heard in these deliberations as well. This morning's hearings, however, certainly are among the most significant because we have witnesses present who were at the very heart of framing the systems we have as former Ministers of local government. In particular because their tenures all were so recent, that is going to be highly beneficial to us in the work we are doing. I thank them for giving of their time and welcome my own parliamentary party colleague, Deputy Ó Cuív, as well as Deputy Howlin and Deputy Phelan, who I shadowed in the last Dáil. We had many robust exchanges across the Chamber and in the committee rooms, where he killed my town council Bill, only to bring it back with a lot of glee.

An Cathaoirleach

No settling scores here today.

Deputy Shane Cassells

It is great to have him here in the Seanad Chamber to debate his insights from the last term as well. I also welcome in particular my fellow county man, Noel Dempsey, who was perhaps one of the most reforming Ministers in local government. The changes that he brought in in the mid-1990s and the systems he introduced gave the likes of me and many other young people their chance. That was very significant in terms of the work that he did. I really look forward to the contributions of our witnesses here this morning.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going to have a question-and-answer session after each of the members here. I want to welcome Deputy Howlin in particular and to thank him for his service both as a Minister and to the people of Wexford down through the years. I thank him for taking the time to be here today.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ligean dom teacht anseo agus labhairt libh faoin ábhar tábhachtach seo ar maidin. It has been quite a few years since I had direct responsibility for local government at Cabinet level. The comment of the rapporteur that we are all very recent does not quite apply in my case. But in truth, local government impacts constantly on the work of every Oireachtas Member. More recently, in my role as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, I had an overall platform on local government and its interaction with national government and with national delivery agencies and how each operated. I should say at the outset how important I believe local bodies, that is, local elected councils, are to proper functioning in our country.

If proof were needed, the outstanding work of our councils during the Covid-19 pandemic showed how in a crisis, whether the magnitude of Covid or a more localised disaster like localised flooding or fire, it is to the councils that we turn to provide a much-needed local response.

I am also conscious that my words merely add to the lip service that national politicians pay to local democracy. At national level we know what they do, we appreciate what they achieve but in truth we have done little collectively to rebalance the governing structures of our country. Ireland is a highly centralised country in public spending terms, with almost all spending decisions decided by central government. Many political parties and indeed many governments have committed to fundamentally decentralise but little has really changed. Spending at local level in 2022 amounted to 9.7% of all government spending. Less than €1 in €10 is determined at local level. In the EU 27, only Greece, Cyprus and Malta spend less at local level. Cyprus has a population of 1.2 million people and Malta has a population of just half a million. In contrast, the average across the EU was 34.4%, or just over a third of all public spending. The best performer, from the viewpoint of decentralised spending, was Denmark where better than two thirds, or 66.7%, was decided locally.

Total local government spending this year in Ireland will be €12.4 billion, that is, €7.2 billion in current expenditure and €5.2 billion in capital expenditure. Just under half of current revenue and almost 90% of capital spending will come from central government. The old adage holds sway, namely, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Our local government system is used to being dependent on central government to fund projects and for the services and developments it needs and wants. Not all local government systems are directly comparable. Different countries provide services like education, social care and health at different levels and therefore some direct comparisons can be deceptive. The central point I wish to make is that here in Ireland we have for a century chosen to deliver most services from the centre. Even when we decide to move the service provision away from direct central government Departments, we normally create a national agency to deliver the service, one that reports to central government. Some of the most obvious examples are healthcare being provided through the HSE or children's welfare being provided through Tusla. The oversight of any of these national providers to local elected councils is extremely limited. The question that needs to be answered is whether we are happy with this structure and whether it is fit for purpose or needs change.

My next question is whether the current county council and regional assembly system is best for Ireland. I must begin this with an unusual declaration for anybody standing and giving evidence and that is a humble apology. The Government I was a member of abolished town councils. I accepted at the time that the scale required for effective local government was best provided at county level. That I now believe was a serious mistake that should be revisited. The historic role of town councils, the closest layer of democracy to the citizen, is one which I believe is sorely missed. We diminished the most local and recognisable of bodies, namely, the boroughs of Wexford, Drogheda, Kilkenny, Clonmel and Sligo, as well as 75 other town councils. I am firmly of the view that any urban area of more than 5,000 inhabitants, should have its own town council. The principal of subsidiarity is defined in Article 5.3 of the Treaty on European Union and I believe it applies here.

The make-up of our local electorate areas also needs review. The State has no single system of administrative geography, no unified boundaries. Consequently, education and training boards, ETBs, community healthcare organisations, CHOs, Garda divisions and so on are created without reference to common boundaries and largely without effective local oversight. At regional level, we have created assemblies for the northern and western region, the eastern and midland region and the southern region. Again, the three assemblies do not align with the European parliamentary constituencies. The regional assembly stated aim in the Local Government Reform Act 2014, is to co-ordinate, promote and support strategic planning and sustainable development and make local government and public services more effective. They have no actual control over the regional spending they discuss. Their individual budgets and their staffing are quite frankly minimal. Their total income last year was €8.6 million, with €4.6 million coming from local councils, and €4 million from other sources. We are not serious about devolved regional control and maybe we should not be but we should make an informed decision.

To conclude my opening remarks, for over 100 years of independence we have grown a centralised system of public administration. In all of the election campaigns in which I have been involved over more than 40 years, reshaping public administration has in itself never loomed large. People do, however, demand and require local accountability. This includes accountability for local hospital performance, the operation of the local transport system and a range of services, from childcare provision to local policing. This is an important review that this committee has undertaken. I congratulate and welcome the review and look forward to assisting the committee in its work.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Howlin. I call the former Seanadóir, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leo siúd a labhair anseo inniu. Bhí mé sa Seanad anseo ón 16 Lúnasa 1989 go dtí Mí na Samhna 1992. Bhain mé an-taitneamh as a bheith sa Seanad ach bhí mé sásta dul go dtí an Dáil freisin. I spent six years on Galway County Council and I was unusual in that I actually got into the Seanad. I failed to get elected in 1985 in the local elections but I got into the Seanad in 1989 and then went on a local authority in 1991. I was a Senator before becoming a local authority member. I found the experience of being on a local authority to be absolutely rewarding and it had a huge effect on my political development. My experience of being an Oireachtas Member and a councillor at the same time was generally positive. I feel and felt at the time of the abolition that without the Oireachtas Members, the counter-balance to the management that was needed was not there. If the various groups of the council, for example, were being told this or that cannot be done because of Dublin and so on, it was very easy for the Oireachtas Members to come back to Dublin to get quick answers as to whether that was true. I also found that having been a councillor, you realised the impact of day-to-day services on people. Often we spend a lot of time talking about big policy and that is usually important but we know that when we go home, it is the road to your house, the repairs to your house, whether you own the house and are looking for a HAOP grant or an adaptation grant or it is a local authority house, that really matter. All of these are vital to human existence and should not be dismissed because they do not fall into the realm of big policy.

The structure we have is fairly simple. We have a relatively small number of large local authorities in international terms and we only have two tiers, if one ignores for a minute the regional tier. If we get into questions and answers, I may give my views on that later. The tendency over the past ten years has been to make some of them even bigger. As my colleague beside me is aware, Waterford and Limerick were amalgamated into single councils. While there also was a proposal for Galway and Cork, some very powerful voices in Cork scuppered Cork and not-so-powerful voices in Galway scuppered Galway. This was because the idea of the city and the county being in one area, when you looked forward to population protection, would have meant that the peripheral areas would have less and less of a say both proportionally and actually. I believe we should be going the other direction. We find lots of room for lots of people but we seem not to have room for the elected representative. One thing the public service likes is the tidy mind syndrome with everything uniform.

There is a pervasive syndrome that all local authorities should be of a similar size and we should not have Cork as a local authority and we should not have Leitrim as a local authority but they should have equal representation per thousand of population. Taking our history and geography, local loyalties, particularly loyalty to a county, and problems into account, the idea of putting bits of Kilkenny into Waterford and all these nice fancy ideas that geographers come up with because of their new geography that ignores the old geography, are doomed to failure and do not get public support.

During the period from 2008 to 2011, I was on a subcommittee that was looking at local authorities. People often talk about town councils. One issue we had a big debate about, and I am clear on what side of the debate I was on, was something I could never understand, which was the obsession with towns and why rural areas do not need representation. We need footpaths and streetlights as all small villages do. We need roads and all the services, including water, that the urban areas need. That might not have been true 100 years ago but there were local rural councils. They were abolished because of corruption in the 1930s. I do not think anyone visualised at that time that they would not return in the 90 years since. Therefore, we were proposing a third tier of government but not what has happened, which is not really a third tier of government but municipal authorities or groups that meet, have discussions and make no decisions. The idea was that the municipal authorities would be strong, funded, have a dedicated office and dedicated finance, and that every decision would be made by them autonomously and not everything would be referred to the local authority. In fact, the idea was that there might be fewer local authority meetings because so much of the small decision-making would happen locally. There was ongoing discussion at the time, which we did not conclude, about the membership. We were all agreed that members should be elected but it was felt that the membership would, unlike the town councils, include all local authority members elected for that area but would have a top-up of more members to make them viable councils and, as well as that, to get into the nooks and crannies of communities that are not represented. I think they should be considered again because we need starter politics for people, particularly with the challenges around minority groups, women and so on, getting elected, which we have seen. It would be an opportunity for people to start their careers at the very local level and build to the county and national levels, perhaps skip a few layers, until they get as far as Europe.

One thing that concerns me at the moment, and I have seen it in the elections for Údarás na Gaeltachta and elsewhere, is the notion that we cannot afford democracy because elections are dear. Autocracy would be a lot dearer. One thing we, as politicians, must knock on the head is the idea that democracy is dear. It is incredibly cheap compared to any other form of government. We have to accept that democracy is the best option despite its faults. There are certainly faults in it because humans always have faults but it is much better than being ruled by experts and administrators, all of whom have their roles. They tend to be specialised while a politician tends to take a lateral view and to take all circumstances into account, including local acceptability.

One thing I am absolutely passionate about, and I think this has come to the fore, is the need to remunerate elected members commensurate with the work they do. Of course, the media will have a field day if we do that, but who is running the country? Is the media or is it us? The volume of work we all have to do as public representatives has grown exponentially since my day. We used to get documents of three or four pages because somebody had to manually type everything. They are now getting more and more complex. There were literally thousands of pages of backup documentation for the county plan in Galway. Therefore, decision-making has become much more complex. I think it is fair to say that most or many councillors find it hard to combine work, council membership and family. In this regard, unless a councillor has a private source of means, for example, a pension, many councillors do not have the financial resources to go full time or the time resource to combine, family, work and council membership at the same time in an adequate fashion.

We must also resource local authority members in terms of backup to challenge the proposals of management in a meaningful way. There is also an issue nowadays, and I think all of us suffer from this syndrome, of being 100% available on our phones and through email, and generally people coming to you in a way that would not previously have been imaginable. I came here in 1989 for my first elected role. I had a brick of a mobile phone but nobody else had one. After 5 p.m., nobody rang me. There were no emails so unless you received communication in the morning or afternoon post, you did not get it and so on.

One thing I have not favoured is the dilution of the role of the local authority or elected people. I am very strong on elected people. We now have local community development committees, LCDCs, strategic policy committee, SPCs, and all of these groups that answer to nobody, never stand for election and still want more and more say in what happens. On the other hand, we have downplayed and downgraded the role of the local authority. Have I run out of time?

An Cathaoirleach

We will give the Deputy some injury time. He will be able to contribute during the question-and-answer session too.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The issue of people not running for election is massive and we will all highlight the various reasons that is happening. I would like to make some suggestions in that regard. First, there should be a very strict limit on the spend in local authority elections. Second, the councils should make bylaws to limit the number of posters candidates can put up. Third, and this would be vital, is that to give profile to new candidates, the local media, both print and radio, should be given funding to cover the elections thoroughly on the basis of equal exposure for all candidates and to allow for fair play. I will come to the rest of my questions during the question-and-answer session because I do not want to bore the House.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I will be as brief as I can, but when you listen to your colleagues, you get further ideas as to what you want to discuss. I too was a member of a local authority in Kilkenny for three years before the introduction of the dual-mandate ban and while I share some of the reservations of the previous speaker in respect of the dual-mandate ban, I think it was right to separate local authorities from the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is no doubt but that it did remove some of the more influential and bigger hitters from local government and it has been difficult to replace those people.

We have an extraordinarily centralised system of government in Ireland. Our structure leans heavily towards centralisation, which has resulted in limited authority for local councils. Elected councillors lack the governing and fiscal powers necessary for effective local government in many cases.

The reality is that it is that way for a number of reasons. That did not happen by accident. We had a central administration before the country reached independence, but it suits categories of people, not least the Department itself, to have a centrally run system. Even more relevantly, the officials of the local authorities themselves have a vested interest. We have also seen with councillors over the years that from time to time, when difficult issues emerge, particularly as regards the housing of Travellers or planning permission for wind turbines, which I referred to earlier, and when difficult decisions have to be made, sometimes they are not made, and those powers are willingly handed up by local officials. In my three years in the Custom House, it became a kind of running joke with me. I met the representatives of the two different councillor groups on many occasions. Our engagement ran into Covid. Every time I would ask them, "What additional powers do you want as local councillors?" Never once was a power requested. It was almost like a test at stages. I would offer the same few examples as to additional powers that local authorities should maybe take on. I am not saying that every local councillor in the country would hold the view of the people who happened to hold the chairs of those groups for three years, but it was remarkable that they could never find one additional power that they felt their local authority could and should deliver.

There are fundamental questions as to how we structure local government into the future, and it is timely to have this discussion. I hope it is not just a discussion but that this can be debated as something that can be acted on. What sort of structure do we see our local authorities having geographically into the future? I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív and others that the geographically based system around counties holds strong identity issues for people. It is a logical basis on which to start.

Then - and I referred to this earlier - what functions do we want our local authorities to carry out, looking at other jurisdictions? Deputy Howlin mentioned that health and its delivery have changed dramatically in recent years, from the time of the county committees of health. I cannot remember when they were abolished but it is a long time ago. That is not to say that in County Wexford there are not five or six acute facilities, mostly for the elderly, although there is the general hospital in Wexford town, about which the councillors in those areas have specific questions. They should have a role in at least the gleaning of information as to what is going on in those systems.

The elephant in the room is how we fund local government into the future. Commercial rates, obviously, are still the bedrock. Local property tax has become somewhat of a football. The well-off local authorities across the board reduce it. The less well-off local authorities increase it without any reference to what services or increased services they wish to deliver on the ground, the other existing source of funding being central funding. There are other systems of funding local government that we have never really examined in Ireland but that would provide the potential for sustained funding into the future.

We also need to look at the role of the councillor. Deputy Ó Cuív spent some time on this and spoke about social media and its impacts. As regards the retirement rate of councillors, I have been pleasantly surprised, as we face into local elections in a couple of months, that the avalanche of retirements that had been expected, maybe partly expected even by me, has not materialised. That is not to say we should not look at the commitment, and I have a different view from Deputy Ó Cuív on this. We are slowly but surely devising a system of local government whereby most, if not the majority, of members on local authorities are retired people, unemployed people, students or people who have smaller outgoings and are able to live off a small pension or whatever along with the representative payment.

We need to examine the meeting structure of local authorities. We need to examine supporting people through their employer to be able to get time to work. We have spoken about this previously but people should not be at a disadvantage in terms of the time commitment because we do not want to have local authorities that are composed solely or largely of narrow segments of society. Pensioners, for example, are not a narrow segment, but there are others that are pretty narrow. We should seek to have local authorities that are truly representative. That means people who work in different backgrounds as well as councils that are balanced in respect of gender and the communities they represent. We should not seek to promote solely those who have more time and are, therefore, able to work within the strictures of the current system.

The other fundamental question that has to be asked is: who will give up their powers? We see this a bit at the moment as regards a directly elected mayor in Limerick and the legislation in that regard. Which Departments, and which sections within Departments, will willingly give up their powers? It is a big Irish thing - "I have my lump of power and I am not going to give it to you, councillor, or to the council." That has to be driven centrally down, but there has not been a willingness traditionally in Ireland to do that. In fact, as Deputy Howlin said, it has been traditionally the opposite. It is to gather powers in.

I completely disagree with the Deputy on the return of town councils. Some have this rose-tinted view that town councils were great. Town councils were not just outdated but completely antidemocratic to the majority of the population who lived outside of towns. That is why I firmly believe that the municipal district system is far fairer. There is no reason, by the way, it could not be extended into the city authorities as well and we could have a municipal district system within city authorities. What do I mean by that? In many other parts of Europe, people are elected to local authorities and serve on a central body, but then there are also councillors who are just elected and who serve locally. There is no reason in the Piltown district of south Kilkenny, which has five municipal district councillors, that there should not be ten or 12 in total who would be represent the municipal district. It would be an effective way of decreasing the ratio of members to population, which is a valid criticism that councillor representative groups have had. I also find from talking to councillors that they find the well-run municipal districts to be very effective in delivering services locally, on the ground. Rather than going back to a system that we might feel was great in the past, let us expand on a new system, which seems to work well, judging by any conversation I have had with county councillors who are members of municipal districts.

Finally, I want to refer to the issue of directly elected mayors, which is close to my own heart as my wife texted me last night and asked, "Did you have anything to do with those directly elected mayors at all? I was looking at social media tonight." As the legislation for Limerick passes - and Limerick has been an exemplar local authority in recent years - I am a passionate believer that there is a massive democratic hole at the heart of local government. That concerns the chief executive and his or her powers. How do we rebalance those powers? Each local authority having its own directly elected chairperson is the way to rebalance those mayors, effectively having the local population elect what we used to call county managers and remove them after five years if they do not like them, or keep them if they do.

At the moment that is the biggest democratic deficit at the heart of how our local government structure works.

An Cathaoirleach

Anois, I call the former Minister, Noel Dempsey. I do not think you ever served in Seanad Éireann so we are delighted to give the opportunity to be a Senator for a day.

Mr. Noel Dempsey

I am very grateful for the opportunity to be here today. Deputy Howlin talked about the length of time since he was a Minister. I am not much longer than that; I was his successor. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this topic. I have a passion for local government that extends back over 50 years. I always believed that it serves as a cornerstone of our democracy. It embodies the principles of government by the people and for the people in a very real and tangible way. That is extremely important for democracy, and for respect for democracy, which is something that erodes by the day.

In my contribution today, I will focus on the two major attempts at reform of the local government system over the past 25 years. Two of us here were involved in one and Deputy Phelan was involved in the other. I will consider how or whether they enhanced the role of the councillor. The 1990s was an interesting time for local government. It became the focus of attention after decades of decline. The Barrington report of 1991 drew fresh attention to local government, the possibilities of local government, the problems faced by it. It highlighted very clearly the need for reform, the lack of integration of local services, the limited range of services that local government provided and the fact that it had no financial base, no local taxation. Among the recommendations made by the Barrington report was the devolution of a range of functions and powers, introduction of a local taxation system and, following from the point just made, restricting the manager's term to a ten-year tenure. That formed the basis for the Government's White Paper, "Better Local Government", which was published by my predecessor at that time, Deputy Howlin, in the latter part of 1996. I think it is fair to say that we had many a good ding-dong but I welcomed the thrust of that document.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I think you called it "bitter local government."

Mr. Noel Dempsey

I think I supported the thrust of that particular document. Of course one could not admit that it could not be improved on at that time. It was regarded as a major reform document and part of the blueprint for major reform, between the Barrington report, that Government White Paper and the later Local Government Act that we introduced.

While Barrington highlighted the shortcomings up to 1991, in the intervening five or six years a further problem arose in the downgrading of local government. Various national and EU-driven initiatives which should have been delivered by local government were assigned to new bodies with no democratic mandate, which bypassed the local government system. There was a great opportunity to expand the role of local government and give it the leadership in local communities, but successive Governments failed to do that. Councillors keenly felt the loss of these opportunities. They saw it as an ongoing trend of downgrading local democracy and local public representatives. They very strongly wanted this trend reversed and were constantly calling for the restoration of powers to democratically elected public representatives. They believed that the local initiatives that I mentioned should be led by the local authority and by democratically elected people. I think the programme for reform was a direct response to that, both the document itself, Better Local Government, and the Local Government Act.

There were four core principles: enhancing local democracy and widening participation; serving the customer better; developing an efficient and effective system to deliver local services; and providing people and resources to allow local government to do its job properly. I am not going to go into the detail of the other reforms, and there were many in that Local Government Act. There was a huge programme of change within the local authorities as a result of that. Local authorities adapted and did it very well with very little fuss. I want to focus on the element of enhancing local democracy and widening participation. It is the one that needs most attention currently. The reform programme focused a lot of effort on enhancing the role of councillors, particularly their policymaking role. It aimed to ensure that local initiatives were operated collaboratively under the auspices of the local authority, rather than bypassing local government. Bringing these groups under the auspices of the local authority through the community and enterprise committees enhanced local government and the role of the councillor. The strategic policy groups and corporate policy groups also were designed to bring councillors into the policymaking role. Whether they made use of that is a subject of debate, I think. There was greater interaction and consultation between the State agencies and the Garda, that featured prominently as well, to give the councillors an opportunity to question State bodies and make them more accountable. The abolition of the dual mandate has been mentioned and we can have a good argument about it. The introduction of the representational allowance was also designed to try to enhance the status of the councillor. The Local Government Act which followed on from Better Local Government was described as the most comprehensive measure ever for change in Irish local government.

Skip on 14 years and we have the Putting People First policy document and the Local Government Act 2014. It is acknowledged as having introduced the most fundamental structural changes in the history of Irish local government. They are two major reform Acts. Despite the negative comment on the abolition of town councils and town commissioners that were referred to, it had at its core an ambition to enhance the role of the councillor. It assigned 45 specific functions to municipal districts and gave the power to devolve a further 24 functions to them. Over 113 major reserve functions are listed in that Act and they remain exclusively in the power of the main council. The change of the title from manager to chief executive was intended to make the chief executive and their staff more accountable to the councillors in the performance of their functions and in spending the resources of the council on what the members decided they needed. Reserve functions of elected members included the power to vary local property tax, the appointment of the chief executive, the power to adopt an annual service delivery plan and the requirement that the chief executive could be held to account by reporting directly to the councillors. A number of other functions were given to the councillors to try to make the system more accountable.

Despite these reforms and the stated aim to enhance the role of the councillors, they still feel very disenfranchised and disempowered. That is clearly seen in the research that was recently done by Maynooth University. I know I am not supposed to wave this report around.

An Cathaoirleach

Those are normal rules. We will just expand the rules a small bit.

Mr. Noel Dempsey

The research is entitled, The 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government. Despite all the reforms we put in place over those 20 years, the report shows that councillors still feel disempowered, in many cases, and disrespected, power is becoming more and more centralised, central government is taking more and more power to itself directly or through quangos, they have less and less power to influence policy, and the chief executive, CE, is becoming more powerful in the system. These are the same complaints Deputies Howlin and Phelan and I received at various times.

Due to that, and because we do not seem to be making progress at all, there a number of conclusions. First, there is a serious need to try to rebalance power at local government level so that the democratically elected councillor has a greater say in the decisions of the council. Second, councillors as a group, on each local authority, need to have access to expert advice to enable them to fulfil their democratic mandate and be in a position to discharge their duties fully and fairly. Third, I now believe that while the voluntary nature of the councillor's role is very noble in principle, and one I wanted to uphold as Minister, it is no longer fit for purpose or sufficient to address the complexities of modern governance.

We need to recognise the invaluable contribution of councillors through providing them with the resources, support and status they deserve and that democracy requires. The 21st-century councillor must be full time, fully paid and equipped with the resources and support they require to serve their communities efficiently.

An Cathaoirleach

I will turn to members of the committee. They may ask succinct and important questions on the presentation of Members and give their thoughts and reflections on it.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank committee members. I will make clear that while we are using the Chamber for the meeting, this is not a committee of the Seanad but a committee of consultation. I want to be clear on that. There are no "happy day" Senators at all today.

Our guests are very welcome. They all bring a breadth of vast experience to the process. There is a recurring theme all the time, which Mr. Dempsey summed up. We will meet 13 or 14 councillors this afternoon. I read all their submissions this week, which all mentioned being valued, respected and so on. It is important our focus must always remain on the role of the councillor. Many of the contributors touched on the issue of the rebalancing of powers and functions. That is the problem. Glossing things up by calling for an elected mayor will not change anything. I am not even convinced the Government is convinced it will go ahead with an elected Dublin mayor. I am of the decided view that there is no commitment to drive an elected mayor for Dublin. That is my take on it, for what it is worth.

To go back to the question, the three key issues, and Deputy Phelan touched on this, relate to funding. We have to address the issue of local government funding. Until we address that, we are going nowhere. Let us be real here. You can have all the powers you like, but if you do not have the resources and the funding, that is it. I will make one ask, which sums it all up. Councillors want to have the confidence, the power and the function, but they need independent advice. The reality is, and councillors will tell us, they cannot rely on or do not always have confidence in the advice they are given by their chief executive. There are three asks, which are also central to addressing this issue. Councillors ask, and they are right to do so and should have it, for recourse to independent planning advice, independent legal advice and independent financial advice. They need to get and secure that. They can get a second opinion from their chief executive on his advice, but that is not the answer because he procured that advice. Will our guests touch on how we could beef that up, or strengthen that, and put a protocol or process in place that would give councillors independent planning advice, independent financial advice and independent legal advice?

I again thank our guests for their engagement. I particularly thank Deputy Howlin because he came here and apologised clearly and unambiguously about town councils. Nearly every submission we will hear from councillors this afternoon will talk about their desire for town councils to be resurrected.

Senator Mark Wall

I welcome Mr. Dempsey, and Deputies Phelan, Ó Cuív and Howlin. Like the Cathaoirleach, I will use the opportunity to pay particular tribute to my colleague, Deputy Howlin, for 40-plus years in both Houses. On behalf of the Labour Party, it will be a very sad day when he no longer represents us as he has done so powerfully for the party and the people of Wexford.

I am touched by a number of comments by Deputy Howlin and other colleagues. The first is the statement that "local government impacts constantly on the work of every Oireachtas Member." That was true for me this morning, when I rang a number of council officials on my way to Dublin, but maybe therein lies the problem. It is taking up too much of the work of Oireachtas Members and councillors. Maybe that is something we should discuss more. Not for the first time, I heard Deputy Howlin speak of an apology relating to the 80 borough and town councils and the mistake that was made. I totally support his statement that it was a mistake.

I respectfully disagree with Deputy Phelan on this. When I talk to councillors, and when I was a councillor for 11 years, the issue that came up for me was the centralisation of the whole function of municipal districts and what happens when it comes to planning and financial advice. When we sit around with councillors - there are 40 in County Kildare - the conversation is about leaving it to the local person, yet that person has a vote on that function. That is wrong. The biggest issue is that local issues need to be decided at local level. That is what municipal districts have not done. Again, the problem I have seen in the functioning of municipal districts is that some people, at different levels in different municipal districts, vote against what local people or local representatives might decide. That has also created problems, not just in the local authority for the area where I live but others as well. We need to go back to those 80 borough and town councils.

I am also respectful of what Deputy Ó Cuív said about rural areas. I am from a relatively rural area. County councils and county council representatives did a lot of work, and handled the rural area very well, while the town councils reflected it. I spent five years on Athy Town Council before 2014 and the work there was terrific.

I have questions about three issues. All four speakers mentioned regional assemblies. Are they or are they not working? What role do our four very experienced representatives say those assemblies should play that they are not playing at present? Funding of regional assemblies is a major issue, which was highlighted by a number of speakers. Where should the funding come from for that? That leads me to my second question, which is funding of local authorities. Looking at the presentation by Dr. Nat O'Connor mentioned by Deputy Howlin, it referenced 10% of funding being spent at local level. As far as I concerned, that is a crying shame, when the average in the EU is 34% and it is 66% in Denmark. Where should that funding allocation come from? Deputy Phelan touched on this. Has local property tax worked? I have reservations on that. All four speakers have touched on the issue of representation, and Mr. Dempsey eloquently spoke about it. Are we representing all of society? Do we need full-time paid councillors? Maybe we could tease that out a little more. We need to look at where we need to work better on total representation of the new Ireland we have to ensure is fully represented at council level.

Senator Frances Black

I thank the representatives for coming in, and for sharing their experience and expertise with the committee. This undertaking by the Seanad could represent a rethink of the very centralised, top-down approach that has traditionally characterised the approach to local democracy. I am glad we hearing the perspectives of people who have ministerial experience and have really made an impact on this area.

I agree with everything Senator Boyhan said. This is about valuing the work of councillors. We have to recognise the phenomenal work they do. I have travelled throughout the country to meet with councillors. They are out on their own as regards the volume of work they do.

I want to thank Deputy Howlin in particular and to wish him well going forward. I also thank him for his detailed and candid opening statement. His reflection on the negative implications the abolition of town councils has had is really valuable. I have to disagree, unfortunately, with Deputy Phelan. Politics is intense and competitive and it can be hard to admit mistakes and it is admirable that Deputy Howlin has done that. I want to ask all the witnesses about the role of town councils and whether they think they should be restored. I would like to hear more about that. Over time, a significant number of roles have been taken from local authorities and either have been privatised or taken on by central government or national agencies. In my view, this has undermined public confidence in local authorities and has made many voters apathetic about local politics, which we need to highlight. Should local authorities play a greater role in public service provision? The witnesses might say a bit more about that, as well as how we can make that happen.

Finally, political life has become increasingly toxic for everyone and we have seen the recent emergence of misinformation and of exclusionary and conspiratorial rhetoric and an uptake of violent protests together with threats to public representatives and to local councillors in particular. Can the witnesses speak about how we can keep local councillors safe as I have been getting inquiries from local councillors about this? The also might speak about how to promote a more positive discourse for local councillors.

Senator Pat Casey

I thank the Chair and welcome everybody here this morning. It was great to hear from four former Ministers of local government and having served in local government for 12 years, it is probably the most rewarding position in the sense that you are closest to the public and are answering their day-to-day issues. I have seen a lot of changes over that 12 years and since that are not positive in respect of local democracy. It is very hard to focus on one area as it is all-encompassing and we could start in respect of putting people first. I was the cathaoirleach in Wicklow at the time when that was coming in and I saw a lot of positives in that but that has not actually related back to the ground. We can have the argument about town councils or no town councils but what happened was that the municipal districts were set up but as a compensation measure, town teams were set up to replace town councils. I have a major issue in how practically these town teams are working in local authorities. A lot of town teams around the country have more access to the officials than our local representatives. They are planning projects and delivering projects without our local councils involved. That needs to be looked and needs to be reformed.

I thought bringing in powers enabling the councillors to vote on the property tax was a positive move but again, was not fully understood by the councils as to what exactly they could do. Equally, the officials were behaving in an autocratic manner. It was a case of "you cannot decide where your 15% increase is going to be spent, we are going to decide it." It is stuff like this that went against what possibly could have been a forward-moving measure and in fairness to the property tax, that has evolved a bit better over the years. The municipal districts are now getting a better understanding of how they control it and spend it because in our first one, we went for a 15% reduction because the chief executive would not allow us to decide where that money was spent. The national planning framework and the Office of the Planning Regulator have actually ended the last democratic process our councillors have had, that is, their county development plan. Even the planning Bill that is going through the Dáil at the moment is eroding that further again with a ten-year plan. You can now serve on your local authority and never have a say in your county development plan. Deputy Ó Cuív and myself would have had several ding-dongs in relation to the NPF and I have a major problem with it but again, it is removing it from the ground up and it is becoming a top-down process.

The other thing I want to focus on and maybe the witnesses can comment on it is that while we are removing powers from local authority members, we are also removing powers from the Oireachtas. Whether it be Irish Water or the National Transport Authority, we have created these quangos that are no longer answerable directly to ourselves either here or in the council chamber. It was brought up at a meeting recently within our party as to whether we can look at something to make Irish Water, the National Transport Authority, etc. more accountable to our local authority members. If nothing else, we can do that.

We are all seeing, with regard to the local elections, that it is getting almost impossible for people who get involved in local democracy and something needs to be challenged and some solution is needed. Mr. Dempsey mentioned full-time councillors. I was at an Oireachtas committee - I am unsure whether Deputy Phelan was there that day - at which there was a clear line from the Department that under no circumstances would it even discuss the concept of a full-time councillor. Yet we all know that at this point in time, it is a full-time position. We have all mentioned that we are not giving the support they need, whether it be legal or financial. We are sending them in there to a vacuum.

In relation to our last county development plan, we were proposing an amendment to the development plan that was perfectly legitimate under the legislation. My colleagues were called in by the chief executive and the head of forward planning told them that under no circumstances could they move that motion and that they were acting illegally. In fact, they were not. When it came to the variation of development plan, my colleagues forced it through and the Office of the Planning Regulator agreed with our members. It is again the point of our councils not having the back-up and support they need at times when they have to make crucial decisions on our behalf. Unless we restore powers, however, whatever powers they may be, we are eroding the value of our local authority. We do need to do something about that.

Deputy Phelan mentioned that they have shied away from serious decisions and maybe we need to look at these decisions. I remember one major one in Wicklow was about a landfill. What should have happened was the other four areas should have passed the vote. That exposed the local councillors but there are ways around that. As for Traveller accommodation, I see where the Deputy is coming from but we honestly need to do something as otherwise, I do not know what function they are actually serving. I welcome the witnesses' contributions and I could talk about this for hours but unless we support our councils and give some powers back to them or make these quangos we created accountable to local authority members, we realistically are at nothing.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring in Senator Cassells and then we will go back to the former Ministers and we will bring in the other members afterwards.

Senator Shane Cassells

I have a couple of quick questions. As I said at the outset, I knew there would be extremely insightful remarks from all four witnesses and I have a few questions to each of them. One is to Deputy Howlin regarding the statistics he quoted on spending. As I said to Mr. Dempsey before the meeting, Deputy Howlin would often make the point at the PAC that the Comptroller and Auditor General could never get a proper hold of what is spent within the local government system. Moreover, that has been exacerbated because of the various strands that have come in. For example in my home town of Navan, there is huge investment going in at the moment because of a special scheme from the NTA and in terms of that being reflected in local spend, what are Deputy Howlin's thoughts on that? I agree with him in terms of the impact, particularly in the boroughs because there was a special connection there. I do not wish to revisit old ground with Deputy Phelan but I do not think we are at odds here. I agree with him on the special need for a broader approach to making sure that local government is representative of all. Consequently, I do not disagree with him at all but I believe that Ireland has changed from that rural basis to an urban basis - I had this discussion with Deputy Ó Cuív - and because of national policy, we are becoming more urban-centric. As a result of national policy forcing this urban-centric nature, the representative bodies should be reflective of what national policy is doing on planning in respect of this and that. This leads to my question to Deputy Ó Cuív in terms of the regional tiers. This issue has been posed by councillors in the previous hearings, that is, whether the regional assemblies should move to a greater statutory function as well, given that the statutory bodies the State creates, whether that be for water or roads, are moving across county boundaries.

Deputy Ó Cuív touched on the regional tiers. We have actually had this discussion. In previous hearings, councillors have asked whether the regional assemblies should also have greater statutory functions given that the statutory bodies the State creates, whether for water or roads, are operating across county boundaries. I have a deep connection to the county structure but the State is creating bodies that breach those. Should we be creating bodies that are reflective of what the State itself is doing? That might be at odds with the hearing we are having.

Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about local media. The report of the Future of Media Commission called for a special fund to be created for activities such as covering elections. However, the problem is, and I am deeply critical of the Minister for this, it has not yet been put in place. It would have been of great assistance to many local newspaper and radio stations for this summer's local elections.

Deputy Phelan mentioned funding and commercial rates, which are issues that come up. Are rate charges fair where a highly profitable enterprise is able to operate from a very small space? What are the Deputy's views on that? On the flipside, and this is something Noel Dempsey will know about, Facebook opened a huge data centre on the border of Meath and Dublin. That is bringing in more in rates than most towns in Ireland are getting in commercial rates, so significant has been its impact. It is a difficult one. I would be interested in hearing Deputy Phelan's view on that given that he was closely aligned with the office that deals with those questions.

Noel Dempsey's call for full-time councillors, which I endorse, is highly significant. Will he expand on the impact that would have, not only as regards the financial reward but also what it would allow by way of human resources to rebalance the dynamic between councillors and officials?

An Cathaoirleach

After the witnesses respond, we will hear from the two Senators who have just arrived. We first want to get feedback on the questions that have been asked.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is no wonder that we have not reformed local government because there are so many different views. That is a perennial issue. If I may put it bluntly in this august Chamber, it is more like the discussions on Seanad reform that have been going on for as long as I have been here. Everyone is in favour of it but we cannot get around to agreeing on what reforms should be made. There are a few fundamentals in terms of local government. One is the empowering of local government like the rest of Europe does to actually make decisions and spend at local government level. The one theme that everyone has put in their questions is how we will fund it. As I said in my opening remarks, he who pays the piper calls the tune. It is not true to say that we did not look at different models of funding. Every Government has and, certainly during the crisis years, we looked fundamentally at how we could raise money at every level. The options, which are not especially dramatic, are a property tax, a local income tax or a local VAT rate. All these things are done elsewhere. Then there are ancillary measures such as a bed-night tax that cities such as Dublin and big tourism areas such as Killarney would benefit from.

When I was doing the roadshow for better local government around the country - Deputy Phelan was very honest about this - it is true that in public session councillors demanded more powers but in private they would list the powers they did not want because they would be too problematic. The intimacy of local electorates means that councillors will meet the people on whom their decisions impact every day. They talk to their neighbours and friends. I am amused by Senator Casey’s suggestion that people outside you own area would make the decision for you. It sort of negates the idea of local democracy to say we will rely on fellas who will not have to meet the people impacted by it. It is a real issue, however. How do you make impactful decisions?

One of the issues that arose in my time in the Department was the housing of Travellers. That responsibility was taken away from councillors and given to the county manager at the time because there was no enthusiasm in some councils to carry out their functions in that regard and that was something that needed to be done. Frankly, I cannot see too many councils deciding to increase local income tax or the VAT rate. Then there are distortions, which we looked at very carefully. If one county area charges a higher income tax than another, who will site a business in the higher income tax area or who will want to work there? If higher VAT is being paid in one area over another, residents will not be very pleased and will decide to do their shopping in the next county where the VAT rate is lower. None of these things are simple. It always goes back to the idea that councils will get a slice of the central cake and let other people decide on the taxation measures but give the councils the spending side. These are very fundamental issues that we have not resolved. I am interested in hearing, by way of questioning and responses, the views of colleagues on that.

I will quickly deal with a number of other issues. On town councils, Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about history being important. There is no structure of government more ancient than town councils. My borough of Wexford is from charter in the 12th century and there have been mayors for a very long time. While it is true they were restored in Victorian times, but there was an extraordinary affinity to the mayor of Wexford, the councillors in Wexford and the borough of Wexford. People knew who every councillor was in a way that I am not sure is true today. Maybe they do in smaller geographical areas such as Wexford but they certainly do not in the bigger ones.

To dress up the reform, we call them municipal districts. Rosslare municipal district does not have any municipal area. It stretches from the ring road of Wexford to Bannow Bay but there is not a sizeable town in it. It is a very big chunk of geography. Kilmuckridge municipal district in the north of the county goes around the Gorey and Enniscorthy areas and ends up on the boundary of Wexford town again. This means an elected councillor in the south of that municipal district, a couple of miles away from Wexford, will travel through the municipal district of Enniscorthy into Gorey to attend council meetings. That is why I touched on the issue of reviewing the districts. There were many other issues but I do not want to take up others’ time and I want others to be able to contribute.

We might have a separate discussion on the fundamental issue of how councillors can work in an era of misinformation and abuse online. It is a huge issue. Another committee, the European Affairs committee heard expert presentations on that very topic yesterday. We will report to the Houses on that matter as it relates to the European elections. The same issues apply to any elected person or candidate for public office. The visceral abuse, particularly for women now, is such a disincentive for people to stand.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I think we can all agree that there should be a third tier because counties are too big. This is equally valid for Dublin. I remember having this argument. We have Dublin City Council now but going back in time there was Pembroke district, where I grew up, Rathmines and so on. These were town councils within the city. I know Dublin really well and it is a city of villages that do not really connect in lots of ways. A third tier is therefore necessary. It would be complex to do that. The old arrangement was not simple either because there were town commissioners who had very little power and then there were some town councils with planning and housing powers. These town councils that we are all talking about nostalgically were a very mixed bag. Some quite big towns did not have town councils while some very small towns did. That system is redundant. I still think that the sophistication of life and the very wide provision of services mean that all areas need a third tier.

How it is to be done is something on which we need to have further debate. However, the first thing we need to agree on is that a third tier is needed and is a need for all. By way of example, Connemara had no town council. Galway had Loughrea, Ballinasloe and Tuam while Connemara had none. The problem for Connemara in the big council was always that there was two thirds of the population east of the Corrib in County Galway and in Connemara we had the other third. We were always outvoted and could not even make local decisions for ourselves.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

You should have merged with the city, with your friends.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Then we would be totally submerged. Second, and I hope I have made myself clear, councillors should be paid full time. It is a full-time job. This idea of doing it voluntarily in a world where people are trying to pay mortgages precludes younger working people from taking up this position. The advice issue is similar. I fully support that.

Regarding regional assemblies, they are the hidden body. I do not know much about them and I am a long-time politician. They are selected in a way through the councils. I do not know how coherent the geographic area is. We know one thing. Due to regional tariffs, particularly in the planning, as we have often discussed, by the time Government had laid down its criteria on how many houses were to be built and had got it to the regional authority, when it came to the local authorities they had no more power in reality. Some absolutely farcical consequences have arisen as a result.

As to funding, I do not think too many local taxes could be raised in this country other than the ones we have. We are delusional to think we are going to sell that one. On the other hand, the present method of funding is the most opaque and has been proven by study after study to be totally unfair. If central funding is to be given, it has to be open and transparent and it has to be fair, something it is not. Funding for local authorities is like the Nile Delta. Virtually all the money comes from Government. It splits up into streams in various Departments that give it for specific projects and then it all joins out in services to the people. We need to look at this. Much more of the funding should come in one big block and, subject to good decision-making, it should be at the discretion of local authority to decide priorities.

We have become devils at both European and national level for microprescriptions. I will give a simple example. There was a recent prescription that footpaths should not be extended beyond the 50 km speed limit. Somebody probably thought in the Custom House or somewhere that this was a very reasonable provision. I can think, within my own parish, of a place where we went halfway out to a football pitch and we cannot go the rest of the way because it is not within the 50 km speed limit area. In other case, the 50 km does not go as far as across a bridge. A quarter of a mile down the road, there is a school, a Garda barracks, a community centre, a small football pitch and the main community facilities, and we cannot connect the footpaths in the places people most likely will walk. Why? It is because of this universal rule that has been laid down that you cannot go outside the 50 km. Then you will have to think of some genius way of going to some other fund to try to get it. We need to give more discretion. If local authorities then make a mess of it, let them be accountable to the local people. There is this idea that on every microdecision we up here have to be accountable. We should tell the people to get onto their councillors and sort it.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I will try to go through the issues in order. Several members raised the issue of funding. Funding is the core issue. If we throw our hands up and say we will not have any other sources of funding, the discussion we are having today is pretty moot. Deputy Howlin outlined some of them. I have a different view from him. Local councillors setting a sales tax in County Wexford that might force Wexford people to come to Kilkenny to do their shopping sounds like a very positive and plausible thing.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It might be less to Kilkenny.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It might be, and it if is, they will flow the other way. I say that as someone whose local town is New Ross where I do most of my sales. We have to have new sources. Bed nights and sales tax are the obvious ones that could be introduced. I know they have been looked at before and I do not really see why, if we are serious about reforming local government, it should not happen.

Regarding independent advice, I agree 100% with Senator Boyhan. We had some discussions about this in the past. I know some councillors banded together with some of their additional allowances and sought to gain external advice. I do not think it would be satisfactory to have that third-party advice in-house in any way shape or form, but if there is a pot of funding there that is available through the Whips or the corporate policy group, CPG, because not everyone is necessarily within a group, that funding should be there and I fully support it. The Senator is right. There are huge decisions being made, especially when it comes to planning decisions.

Deputy Howlin spoke about the affinities to the mayor of Wexford. He is right. There is an affinity to the mayor of Wexford. The problem now is that there is a mayor everywhere. Is there a mayor of County Wexford that fills the chair?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

No.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

Most counties seem now to have mayors of counties as well as mayors of cities. In Limerick, the mayor of the county is the mayor of the city. It is daft. What is wrong with the word "cathaoirleach"? I know people will say it does not mean anything internationally. "Taoiseach" does not mean a hell of a lot internationally either yet there are lads regularly looking for the job.

I make no apology for my utter opposition to anything that resembles the reintroduction of town councils and I will never change my mind on that. It was a system that meant that some people got two ballot papers and others got one. That is just not democratic, end of story. Whether a version of it can be reintroduced, I firmly believe the extension of the municipal district is the way to go with it. Deputy Howlin spoke about Kilmuckridge. Kilmuckridge is an electoral area, not a municipal district.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Gorey-----

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It is part of the Gorey area but it is not a municipal district, so describing the shape of it is a bit irrelevant.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

To go to meetings, you have to go from the boundary of Wexford up to Gorey through another electoral area.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It was always so. We always had situations where people who lived on the edge of towns were not included. Sometimes town boundaries were extended to include people, in rural areas in some cases, into town council voting in the last number of town councils that would have been elected. That was not always the case either and it certainly was not uniform.

As to regional assemblies, I was the only one who never mentioned them because there is no affinity from the population whatsoever to them. We did not align them with the European electoral boundaries. Thank God we did not do this because the European election boundaries are ridiculous. There is an area from Wicklow to Kerry. We should go back to something approaching Leinster-Munster and Connacht-Ulster to have some sort of ownership of those. The old regional boundaries meant something to people. The south east was a recognisable region, to use my own example. The mid-west is still a recognisable region. It may be at that level that the regional structure might be more beneficial.

Senator Black spoke about returning town councils. I say "No". Keep them out.

Local authorities should definitely play a greater role in public service provision. I would like to know what the councillors themselves think that should be. They are not quick at coming forward about what services they think they should provide. The Senator mentioned a very serious issue regarding keeping councillors safe. What I have noticed in my 25 years, and it is probably the same here too, concerns the camaraderie between councillors, even if you diametrically disagree with somebody.

There is much more willingness now, nationally and locally, to hang someone out to dry and turn the guns on a colleague-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

That is true.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

-----for nothing other than political benefit. This can inflict terror. I have seen cases of that happening. More solidarity among councillors is needed, but I would have no difficulty with some of the measures introduced for Oireachtas Members being extended to councillors in terms of safety.

Senator Casey said that local government is the most rewarding position. I say amen to that. I loved my time on Kilkenny County Council, when I was dealing with little things that affected people's lives instantly and I could get a quick result. I fully agree with the Senator on this. I was a member of the Government that introduced the Office of the Planning Regulator. Between that and the planning framework, we are, in the midst a housing crisis, telling local authorities the maximum number of houses they can build, including in major urban areas. It is far too rigid a system. It is inflexible when it comes to things that emerge from time to time. The Office of the Planning Regulator originated in the wild west days of local government. The idea that it did not stem from somewhere and does not have a function is wrong, but it is a classic Irish situation where a good idea is implemented with such rigidity that it has negative effects on the ground.

I disagree with regard to ten-year plans. County and city development plans were already being put in place for seven or eight years anyway. One of the only things the communists probably got right was long-term planning.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

They had five-year plans.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

They used to have 50-year plans as well.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

They did not deliver on them.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

They did not. That is right. I said that tongue in cheek.

I will be controversial here. I decided I would when I came in. We are having a discussion about how councillors feel they are emasculated, are losing powers and do not have influence. At the same time, we are saying they should become fully paid positions. Is there not a central contradiction in that? They are losing powers to do everything, but let them have full-time jobs. That is a direct contradiction in terms. If we were to have a proper review, implement reform and move to what Senator Black said about the delivery of functions locally, there might be a case for councillors to be full-time. While the clamour is that councillors do not have enough powers to do what they want to do, there is no case for full-time paid positions. My underlying worry - this is happening to a large extent already - relates to the removal from local authorities of some of the expertise people bring from their own backgrounds, which is leading to the position of councillor becoming homogeneous across the various authorities.

Senator Cassells and I will never agree about town councils. In our time, we introduced changes to how commercial rates operate in order to allow greater flexibility for councillors to have variations within their local authorities. When he was Minister of State, Deputy Ring was pumping millions into main streets, while the rates sections of local authorities were taking millions out of them. The best way to keep our towns and cities looking well is to have businesses operating on main streets. We need to swing the balance of funding away from the narrow traditional business on the main streets to out-of-town centres.

I am not familiar with Senator Ó Cuív's diktat on 50 km. It was not there in my time. Perhaps it has been introduced by some of my colleagues in government.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is there now.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It would be ridiculous. There are many areas on the edges of towns where footpaths and street lights are needed. Is it the classic situation that some officious individual in Galway County Council is saying it is the big bad lads of the Custom House who brought this rule in when it is a decision that is being manipulated at local level?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If I were a councillor as well as a TD, I would have found that out very quickly.

Mr. Noel Dempsey

Having listened to colleagues' earlier contributions and the previous one, all I can say is that I wish them well in drawing up this report. I am in danger of saying that I agree with everything my colleagues said. Then we would be in real trouble, because they are all saying different things.

On paying councillors on a full-time basis, apart from the erosion of their powers, they do not have the capacity currently to fully utilise the powers that they possess. The reason for this is that the balance of power at local authority level is wrong. It is not the democratically elected members of a local authority who make the real decisions; it is the paid executives. Until paid executives know that the people they are answerable to have the capacity to question their decisions and have the information needed to query what is going on, there will not be a good or democratic system of local government.

It is clear from the report that councillors have a representative role and a statutory role. The representative role is they go around and electors ask questions and raise local issues, like potholes, footpaths or whatever else. Because a councillor needs to get re-elected, 70% or 80% of his or her time is spent doing those things and following up officials on these queries. They have not the time to read the report. I ask anybody here to go online - there is a great service now - and look at the agenda for the monthly meeting of the local authority and at the number of reports that are read. Councillors are expected to know of planning, which is an important role. Then there is climate change and all sorts of national policies that councillors have to be experts in, but they cannot be because they do not have not the time. If we want a meaningful, democratic local government system, we have to pay the people to do what they are supposed to do, which is to represent the people fully.

A halfway house would be the type of independent advice we are talking about. Is it feasible that every group of councillors, rather than the executive, will have the expertise in finance, planning and so on? Probably not. That would probably be an expensive way of doing it. Maybe groups like AILG and LAMA would combine and have an organisation similar to the Institute of Public Administration, which does a good job at national level for civil servants. There would be an institute for local government that would have research capabilities to give independent advice to councillors. That would probably not even be a halfway house.

I agree that we need a proper regional tier just for strategic planning.

The reason so many national bodies have been set up, whether it be the National Roads Authority, NRA, Irish Water or whatever else, is planning was not done jointly by local authorities in different areas, even though it could have been. Having a regional tier for strategic planning of various kinds would have been the better approach to this; there would be democratically elected people with back-up and expertise to be able to challenge this kind of nonsense. Every national plan that we have had has had the population projections wrong. There is a low and a high medium and generally because of diktats from across the road, the lowest number is always chosen. We can see what that has done to current county development plans. The figures are totally out, as is housing and so forth. Therefore, it may be worthwhile to have a democratic regional level.

While I may not be as vehement as Deputy Phelan on the issue of town councils, I agree with him. The municipal district level is about right for the delivery of local services. I respect what Mr. Brendan Fitzgerald said and I believe each municipal district was designed, insofar as possible, to have at least one centre of population and an area around it. It is a good model and councillors are happy with it as far as it goes. It was a reasonable attempt at reform in this area.

As for full-time councillors, it is more likely that there would be a more diverse membership of local authorities if people knew they could survive on the salary. That would be helpful, as well.

Turning to local finance, and I will leave it at that, I have no great problem around national governments wanting the delivery of child care or whatever else and asking the local authorities to do it, provided they can provide the finance, and maybe some local finance as well. However, there should be local discretion; it should be the local body that decides what its targets and aims are within a broader policy framework but they must be financed.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring in Senator Eugene Murphy and Senator Gerard P. Craughwell and then I will come back to the committee members. I am conscious that we are finishing in 18 minutes.

Senator Eugene Murphy

There is cúpla nóiméad. Ar an gcéad dul síos, cuirim fáilte roimh Noel Dempsey agus an Teachta Phelan, an Teachta Ó Cuív agus an Teachta Howlin. Is díospóireacht an-tábhachtach í seo. I wish to express míle fáilte to the four witnesses. They are experienced and have achieved a lot. Like others, I wish Deputy Howlin the very best for the future. Since I came to the Houses of the Oireachtas in 2016, Deputy Howlin has been nothing but a gentleman. He is conversationist, chatty and helpful all around. I always appreciated that.

A lot of the questions have been asked. I start by slightly disagreeing with Mr. Dempsey and Deputy Phelan; I think town councils are a major loss. For example, in my own area there are towns like Ballinasloe, where there are 7,000 people, and Athlone. I believe towns like Ballinasloe and Athlone have lost out because they lack town councils. However, I absolutely agree with not having town councils where there are smaller towns and smaller populations, but we should have a serious look at Ballinasloe and Athlone. Would any of the witnesses agree with a type of town council system for larger towns?

As for municipal districts, there are a lot of good points and things that have happened with them. However, I give an example of the size of municipal districts in rural areas. While Mr. Dempsey and Deputy Ó Cuív know Roscommon well, the other witnesses may not. On crossing the bridge at Termonbarry into County Roscommon travelling to Knock and almost to Carracastle in County Mayo, that whole county and north of it is part of the Boyle municipal district. Under the present system where councillors are not full time nor paid, it is literally impossible for any councillor to cover that area. Not only is it so vast and rural, but there are now so many other issues councillors have to deal with in modern society. Would the witnesses be in favour of reforming those municipal districts? There were six electoral areas in rural Roscommon and now there are three. That does not work. However, I acknowledge that there have been some good things in the municipal districts and a lot of councillors will say that.

I wish to make the final point that the town team scenario has not worked on the basis that those who are democratically elected are locked out. The only time they are not locked out is when there is a Part 8 vote. They are basically forced into voting against particular issues in their town that are not going to be for the benefit of the town. I wish to mention to mention my own town of Strokestown. It will probably get more funding than ever. It is massive funding and while many of the proposed changes are good, the beautiful, wide streets, which are such a feature of Strokestown - it has the second-widest streets in the country - will be destroyed by what council consultants said, even when the local councillors and people know it is not the right thing. That is a pity. Our councillors in many respects have been locked out of these situations until there is a vote and such pressure is put on them. One of the first things that may be said to them by the executive or others is, "So you're going to vote the money down for your town." That is an unfair way to treat people who have been elected by the people of that town. How can this be addressed? It is doing a lot of damage at the moment to local authority and to local authority members. They will be damaged by this in the local elections that are coming up.

I thank the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring in Senator Craughwell. I wish to bring the committee members back in, as well as hear final remarks from our witnesses.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

It is no secret that I was never a member of a local authority so I am speaking to my experience in this House. I listened to the presentations downstairs in my office and I found myself asking whether we really know what we are doing in the Houses of the Oireachtas to local authorities. In recent years, we stripped county councillors of memberships of boards and of policing and security functions in their local areas, and we have removed them from university boards. There are 520 housing agencies, each with a chief executive officer and a chief financial officer, I assume. Funding to cover the cost of county councillors has been mentioned but we should get rid of the housing agencies and pay the county councillors. What happened to the councils that used to build houses? They built the finest houses in the country. I recall my father telling me that the clerk of works in Galway, when council houses were being built in Mervue, sent timber back if there were knots in it because it was not of the quality that was required. There are a number of former Ministers present and I wonder, when Ministers bring legislation into the Seanad or the Dáil, whether it is genuinely their views that is being brought in or is it something a civil servant put together? We spent two and a half a years here on the Air Navigation and Transport Act Bill before the Minister eventually cracked and said that the legislation was actually written by an outside authority. Actually, it was written by the authority-----

An Cathaoirleach

We are trying to confine this to local government-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Okay, I am trying to. It was written by the authority that we were trying to regulate. It wrote its own legislation. The only Minister who ever liaised with me on legislation for local authority was Deputy Phelan and he was accommodating at the end of the day, albeit with both arms tied behind his back. I am not a party member but the witnesses are. They have been Ministers and are members of political parties. Elected members here frequently bring legislation forward that limits the influence their party members have at local level.

They strip them of their powers and, at the end of the day, my colleagues in the House are forced through the Whip system to row in behind a Minister who may not necessarily believe in the legislation he or she is bringing forward. Yesterday, a community policing motion was voted down and I know that my colleagues did not want to do that.

Senator Pat Casey

In respect of giving powers back to councillors in making tough decisions, that could equally be applied to national level as well. People run away from tough decisions.

As for future financing, whether VAT, an overnight tax or whatever it is, the problem is not the tax. The problem is the lack of accountability for what that delivers on the ground. When we see visible delivery of what we have voted for, we can stand over that decision, and that is the bit that is missing.

In respect of the regional assemblies, the national planning framework and the Office of the Planning Regulator, that was a complete and utter disaster. We adopted a county development plan where 16 out of 20 towns had exceeded their 2030 population targets. We dezoned land where critical infrastructure was in place to build houses. In fairness to the planning regulator, on this occasion he is only enforcing his own plan he drove through this House, but it is the national planning framework document that he is enforcing. That is where the fundamental problem was. To say the regional authority has the power to assign 50% of the population growth in Wicklow is wrong, and it is wrong for it to decide what the key towns in Wicklow are. They are local decisions and that is where they should be decided.

In respect of town team issue because I mentioned it, that an organisation called the town team is allowed to apply for funding to deliver projects the municipal district should be delivering is fundamentally wrong. It devalues the role of the local councillor. Today, we are discussing the future of the local authority, and I think that full-time position is in that discussion. I am not saying we want a full-time councillor today, but it is about where the local authority is going and it is in those parameters I would like to see that discussion held.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Mr. Dempsey raised the issue of independent legal, planning and financial advice. No one has touched on the very powerful County and City Management Association, CCMA. It gets all sorts of advice and does not have the capacity or knowledge either, but it is getting it from an agency. That was a very good idea and suggestion. We cannot have each local authority having individual sets of services. That is not practical either. It is only as a last resort. It is not always necessary to have it but it is important as a last resort. We need to look at the roles and functions of the CCMA, the most powerful body in this context that is funded by taxpayers and public money, to support and keep it in situ and keep the status quo for it but we do not have that on the other side of the house for elected members.

As to Deputy Ó Cuív's point, which Deputy Howlin also touched on, it was Seanad Éireann that put the scuppers on the merging of Galway city and county councils. They will recall the legislation had been passed in the Dáil-----

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It was a great victory.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Clearly, Galway TDs and Senators thought it was a great victory, and I was part of it and I think it was a fantastic victory, so I thank them for that endorsement.

Deputy Phelan said, "Out, out, out". I wish him every success as he goes out of Leinster House.

(Interruptions).

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Maybe Deputy Phelan should answer that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Unless he changes his mind.

An Cathaoirleach

We will move to closing remarks because we are about to wrap up. I thank everybody again.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I might just make three points. It is probably true also of my colleagues, but I never brought legislation to the House that I did not understand or did not support 100%, because I had to argue it through the Government before it ever came near here. That is just not factual and I think my record would show that to be absolutely the case.

On the functioning of councils in better local government, we put a great deal of effort into creating a new model for delivery. In truth, it has never happened, but it is still a relevant model. The idea was that the strategic policy committees, such as the housing committee, would be chaired by a councillor. He or she would be the de facto minister for housing of the local authority, and the director of service would be answerable to that person. The corporate body would be the cabinet of the council and it would control the business of the council. At every monthly meeting, it would not be the director of service for housing who would make the housing report but the chair of the housing committee, and the same is true of the economic committee and so on. That was the model we envisaged in better local government and which was enacted in legislation. I think it is still a good model, if it could be done. It would really rebalance things. Changing the name of the county manager to "chief executive officer" was because he or she was to carry out the directions of the board of management, not to be the manager. The model needs to be reinforced rather than trying to invent a new one.

On the issue of what to do with local town councils, I happen to have a Bill, the restoration of town councils Bill-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brendan Howlin

-----which is ready to be enacted. Whatever is said, there is a tremendous tradition in that. People who were never members of a town council begrudged the Bill. I happen to have been an alderman of Wexford Corporation, a member of Wexford County Council, a Member of Seanad Éireann and a Member of Dáil Éireann, and there really was a respect for the town.

I will make one final comment in defence of town councils, in response to Deputy Ó Cuív. It is not true to say towns are exactly the same as rural areas. Wexford town is the focal point of all the hinterland of County Wexford. People want to go to the cinema, art galleries, public parks and big events such as the opening of the opera festival and so on in Wexford town. That is unique to the urban centre that drives and is the economic and cultural focal point of its hinterland, and it was a mistake to deprive it of its own council.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I invite Deputy Phelan to respond to Senator Boyhan's comments, I welcome the students from Our Lady's College, Drogheda, to the Gallery. As is the unwritten rule of Seanad Éireann, there is no homework for the remainder of the week when students visit Seanad Éireann. It is a populist move but-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

You would want to give it for next week as well.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

Senator Murphy made a number of valid points, not on town councils but on the size of municipal districts. This arose previously and I recall discussing it with Deputy Ó Cuív. Forty is the upper limit for a council, but 18 for a county the size of Roscommon, regardless of its population, is not enough. The same is true of a county the geographical size of Leitrim, where it takes more than an hour to travel from one end to the other. If we increased the figure to 20, that would allow there to be four municipal districts in the likes of Roscommon, and that should never have happened. Deputy Howlin mentioned legislation being brought in and I know the famous victory Senator Boyhan was referring to regarding the merger in Galway-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

My famous victory.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

Senator Craughwell even referred to it in the media. That is something in which I still passionately believe because Galway is unique in that it is physically divided by the city into two counties. Galway would have benefited, and the local authority would be much stronger, if it were a unified local authority. That is my view and I do not expect universal agreement.

Whatever reticence I had might have been based on the fact that I was due to get married the next day. I did get married the next day, eventually, after getting out of the Seanad.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If Deputy Phelan had not got married, he could have merged the Galway councils.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

The other thing that I would caution Members about is the notion that the reintroduction of town councils should be limited to towns of a certain size. It will be a case of "Save our town council" all over again. Any place that had one will automatically look to get one back. We know that it took 14 votes to get onto Ballybay Town Commission or Lismore Town Council or whatever. Famously, in my constituency, a man who got elected to the last Bagenalstown or Muine Bheag Town Council told me in the week of the election he was going to get 66 votes and he would get the eighth seat. He got 67 votes and got the eighth seat. Tommy Bambrick ended up being the last chair of Muine Bheag Town Commission. That is not democracy either. I will always disagree with Deputy Howlin and others about the idea that some people get two ballot papers and others get one in elections to local government. That is not a democratic system.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Our party policy on the return of town councils is that they would be required to have more than 5,000 or 6,000 people. We are not talking about 500 people. We all say that. It is for bigger towns.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

In practice they will all want to be back.

Deputy Eugene Murphy

I wish Deputy Phelan well in his retirement.

Mr. Noel Dempsey

I cannot say I agree with what has been said by my colleagues in relation to the municipal districts. Senator Murphy mentioned them. I just want to touch on the point about the town teams. I do not understand the logic of limiting the number of councillors who can sit on the town team. If there is a town team in an area, all of the members of the municipal district should be on it, with members of outside bodies and so on. This is another example of undermining the councillors and I do not think it should stand.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The one thing that seems to be missed in what we were looking at is that the third tier would not only have the councillors on it but it would have extra membership. There has been talk about a council with 20 members but there would have been another 20 members selected beneath that. For example, in Galway it takes 1,500 votes to get elected to the county council but people would get elected with 700 votes on the lower tier and would only sit on the municipal authority. That is missing. If that was restored, we would then have councillors guaranteed for the likes of Wexford town and so on.

I have the great distinction of having served only four weeks as Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, as it was known at that stage. I was in the lucky position that I had three Ministries at the one time - Defence, Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and Social Protection. It was a very effective form of government and we got a lot done in a very short time, including setting up the Tús scheme, among other things, and saving Renmore Barracks.

I will throw this into the mix as my final thought. It always amazes me that if a local authority goes to do anything, for example, build a few houses, it has to go up to Dublin three or four times. Then we get a rush of blood to our heads and say this is really crazy, so we give responsibility to an agency such as Irish Water, give it a lob of money and say, "Go off there and spend it and come back and answer to us once a year." We have to devolve the power to make decisions, give the money and make the body accountable for it on a yearly basis. If it makes a mess of it, it is accountable for that, but not at every stage. The engineers in local authorities are as well qualified as the engineers in the Custom House. There is too much micro oversight of everything. We have plenty of examples where once we devolve the power - Irish Water is one example - we just let them off with the ball of wax and tell them to spend it and they are not accountable to Dublin for every minor decision they make.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Well said.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank everyone for their contributions. Deputy Howlin talked about town councils. We look forward to the legislation coming to the Seanad. He made the point that he who pays the piper calls the tune.

Deputy Ó Cuív talked about the starter groups in terms of the lower tier. An idea that struck me as we were talking about that is that in Kenmare municipal district there are six people elected to the full council and the concept is that the next six or seven people on the ballot paper are the ones who will join the top six councillors who reached the quota in the municipal district. For the municipal district, candidates do not need to get 1,500 votes and can focus on an area such as Waterville or Killorglin. Where someone is quite happy to be a municipal district councillor, that gives democratic oversight, which is a good idea in terms of what is coming out of this discussion about what is the next tier. That is the next tier but then we have people who are required to attend council meetings and meetings of the municipal group. Some people do not want to go to council meetings and just want to represent themselves locally.

Deputy Phelan talked about the demographics not being represented because in many instances it is retired people or those living on modest means and unemployed people. He asked how we change that, which goes back to Mr. Dempsey's point about full-time councillors and if that is the way we are going. Nobody will have all that expertise. How do we give them the expertise on financial planning, the environment, planning issues and the legal advice they get? They need to get their own independent legal advice. Without that, they are not able to represent their electorate. The rebalancing of power is what we are talking about.

I will finish on this point. Democratic oversight is key. We have municipal districts and we have councils that are basically just administrative areas that have a veneer of democracy. We need to rebalance that and give democratic oversight. They have the powers but they are not willing to use them. There are reasons for that and there are consequences if you push back, so they need to have independent legal advice.

As part of this process, we will produce a proposal after the local elections. Senator Cassells will do a draft report and have it available for the final session with the Secretaries General and the leaders of the political parties who will be invited. We will present the proposals and ideas of the members of this committee, taking on board what has been said, and ask them to incorporate our proposals into their election manifestos and therefore into some future programme for Government. We have had the reports. The witnesses have all been involved. They have implemented the reports. This is about the future of local democracy, as indicated by the business of the committee. The concern is that in the future we will not have people running for local government in the way we had a decade or so ago if we do not change our current direction of travel. We need to avoid that outcome, which we all fear, that is happening in other countries. The input of the witnesses today has been very helpful and insightful.

Sitting suspended at 12.38 p.m. and resumed at 1.35 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank all our guests for being here for our ongoing deliberations on the future of local democracy in Ireland. We will conduct this session in two parts. We will start with officeholders from counties Carlow, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford and Wicklow, who will then be questioned by our Senators. We will then go to the other members of local authorities who are present.

As a matter of procedure I will read out the following statement. I remind all present of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are deemed potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That is something that is read out before the start of all committee meetings. We know it by heart, or should do. It relates to members and to witnesses.

I welcome our guests to discussion of the very important topic of the future of local democracy. We will compile a draft report, which will be ready after the local elections. After those elections, we will give that report in advance to the Secretaries General and leaders of all the political parties, and invite them to our final session. We will then ask them to consider putting some, if not all, of the recommendations of the committee into their election manifestos and, hopefully, from there into their programmes for Government after the next election. Along with the recommendations, legislation will be required to implement the rebalancing of what we all see as the democratic deficit and making sure, for the next 100 years, we have a system of local government that is not an administrative area people are elected to but where, in many cases, people feel they do not have any input. We are looking for a true local democracy where the people are represented by the people they vote for.

I ask Senator Cassells to make a few opening remarks as he is the rapporteur for the report.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank the Cathaoirleach. As he said, I am the rapporteur for this report and the body of work we are doing in terms of public hearings on the future of local democracy. I very deeply welcome our guests to the Chamber. It is so fitting that they will be addressing members this evening and putting out their points of view. This matter is something I feel very passionately about. I have been elected 25 years this summer and spent 17 years at local government level. In the previous Dáil term, I was the spokesperson for Fianna Fáil on local government. It is something I feel very passionately about.

Today is a very interesting day because four former Ministers for local government addressed us this morning, including Deputies Howlin, Ó Cuív, who is a former Minister of State, Phelan, who was Minister of State during the previous Dáil term, and former Minister, Noel Dempsey. That will be an important counterbalance, as they are four men who were responsible for framing legislation in how the system operates, against now hearing from a wide body of those who are the practitioners who have to work within the framework or constraints of the legislation that is passed.

It is important that we hear from both sides. I look forward to hearing all views this afternoon and making sure they are reflected in the report we will produce.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Councillor Andrea Dalton from Carlow. She is most welcome.

Ms Andrea Dalton

As cathaoirleach of Carlow County Council, i is my great honour and privilege to address this committee.

Last October, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of the Council of Europe adopted a report which concluded that Ireland ranks only above Hungary and Moldova when it comes to power in local authorities and councils. The fact that local government in Ireland is the third weakest in Europe, out of 46 European states, underpins and highlights the pressing need to review our system of local government. The report said that though Ireland is a solid democracy, it remains one of the most centralised countries in Europe and there is still a lot to be done before self-government in Ireland is on a par with other European countries. I welcome the fact that this committee is committed to studying the areas of concern in this report, as well as the recommendations that have been put forward to address them.

In reading the transcripts of previous sessions, I note that many of these concerns have been consistently and thoroughly highlighted by nearly all contributors. Therefore, the facts of the case have already been established. In that light, I will take a more personal approach and bring to the attention of the committee some of the concerns I have as a councillor. The first of those is accurate representation.

As those present may be aware, Carlow is the second smallest county in Ireland, with a population of just under 62,000. The population is almost exactly 50% male and 50% female. There are a few more females. Actually, there are 100 females to every 99 males in Carlow. Our county council consists of 18 local representatives. If it truly reflected and represented the population it serves, we would have a council that is made up of nine males and nine females. Unfortunately, as with many other councils, this is not the case. Only two, or 11%, of our councillors are female. In fact, when I was co-opted in 2017, I was the only female. I had 17 male counterparts at the time. When I look at the hard-working community and voluntary groups in Carlow, and I am sure the same is the case throughout the country, I can see that there are so many capable, committed and strong women at the helm who would make excellent councillors. Yet, this does not seem to translate into females putting themselves forward for election.

I would like to see this committee carrying out targeted research asking the women we all know as powerhouses in our local communities why they do not consider running for election. Then, maybe we can address the barriers that are found. Similarly, 11% of our population comprises non-Irish citizens, but this is not reflected in our chamber either. The role of councillor has evolved into a full-time role and many of the contributors in this space have stated their belief that it is virtually impossible to have a full-time job and be a councillor as well. Therefore, that excludes another cohort of people from different professions. We need to examine the possibility of the role of councillor being remunerated as a full-time role to encourage a wider cross-section of society, or to look at legislation that enables full-time employees to take time off in order to work as councillors.

Another issue I would like to raise is that of security and privacy. I am a public representative. I put myself forward to represent the people of Carlow and to work for them for the betterment of my town and county. However, my family has not done that. They are private individuals. The same goes for the families of every elected representative. As politics has changed greatly in the past couple of years, it has become a harder place and more prone to non-peaceful protests. I worry that my home could be a target for protesters. If that were to happen, and if my children were exposed to that, I would seriously have to consider my position as a councillor. Everyone's home should be sacrosanct.

The impact of social media is another matter that I would like to address. Online disinformation and misinformation are endemic and Government action to address this is overdue. Social media brings many benefits, but it is also a hotbed of misinformation and is a means to troll and bully people. To counteract this, we need to tackle online anonymity in order to reduce abuse and increase accountability. Legislation should be enacted in order to oblige platforms to remove false or inciting information in a timely manner. The funding of local government also needs to be addressed to ensure funding is sufficient and equitable. I ask in particular to look at the mechanism of rates to fund local government, which is outdated and does not reflect new ways of doing business online.

Ms Colette Finn

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. My political life began in Africa when I went to work on the medical laboratory training project. In Africa, I observed an economy that was based on subsistence farming and the repatriation of money from migrants. This experience taught me that the who, the what and the why of decision-making matter. Politics really matters.

Ireland enacted candidate gender quota legislation in 2012. Because of this legislation, I stood for the Green Party as a candidate. Prior to that, although I had been involved in a political party for more than 20 years, I did not consider being a candidate until I was asked to run.

Let us consider the important roles that local government fulfils. It encompasses planning, enterprise and economic development, social and community development, climate action, housing, infrastructure, transport, libraries, recreation and culture. I could go on. The total number of services provided by local authorities in Ireland is more than 1,100, ranging from abandoned vehicle removal to zoonoses monitoring. Let us think of how much influence all these areas have on people's lives. Yet, despite all this, Ireland's system of local government has been described as the Cinderella of the political system. The system is weak in terms of its powers and responsibilities. For example, on average, Ireland has one council for every 160,000 citizens. This is in stark contrast to France, where the ratio is one council for over 1,600 citizens. Ireland is typically ranked at or near the bottom of the international local autonomy index, which ranks local government systems in terms of their autonomy.

At present, we have 31 local authorities. That is down from 114 in 2014. The number of elected councillors per head of population has fallen from one in 1,600 in 2014 to one in just under 5,000 today. On the public administration side, in 2018, there were 38,000 local authority staff. In 2022, there are 32,000. Local government spending as a percentage of total government spending is typically approximately 8%. In the EU, the average is 23%. In Ireland, we have laboured under the defunding of public administration and this further erodes public confidence in politics and public administration.

One of the good things that came out of the banking crisis is that it undermined, hopefully fatally, the idea that the profit motive will deliver for the public good. Privatisation is not, and never has been, the solution to public sector reform. However, there are management practices that we can learn from the private sector. We must do local government better. Social media is a pressure, but I argue that politics is a workplace and the standards that apply to any workplace should also apply to politics, because our democracy depends on it. The councillor role needs to be full-time with secretarial backup, and spending at a local government level needs to be devolved. If we are to increase the role of local government, we will have to look at what people are doing in the Oireachtas and the Civil Service in order for the improved environment to work.

Mr. Adam Teskey

I am delighted to be here on behalf of the people of Limerick and particularly the Rathkeale-Adare municipal district. I recognise the distinguished members of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee and my fellow councillors. It is great to be here today. This is a topic that is very much in the minds of Limerick citizens, considering we are on the brink of a pivotal moment in local democracy, namely, the election of a directly elected mayor. This presents some unique challenges and opportunities, which I will address shortly.

First, I want to discuss some of the more general issues that are impacting citizens' participation, many of which will no doubt come into play as Limerick voters make their mark on the historic vote in June. In this digital age, the proliferation of misinformation and toxic online discourse poses a significant threat, distorting public perception, influencing voters and eroding trust in local institutions.

Social media platforms amplify echo chambers and polarise our communities, hindering constructive dialogue. There does not seem to be a middle ground anymore. One must be for something or against it. Safeguarding local democracy requires concerted efforts to promote media literacy and critical thinking. We must explore more ways to regulate online content while being careful not to stifle debate. We need to foster a digital environment that encourages thoughtful civil engagement rather than diversified rhetoric.

Inclusivity is a fundamental pillar of a robust local democracy. Our ever more diverse communities bring unique perspectives. We must actively work towards eliminating barriers that hinder the participation of marginalised groups and empower citizens with the knowledge to engage meaningfully. Perhaps a new emphasis on civic education is called for. By instilling an understanding of democratic principles from an early age, we cultivate an informed and engaged citizenry and encourage active civic participation.

A common criticism of Ireland’s government structure is that it is too centralised. Limerick’s directly elected mayor will have executive powers and be an able, identifiable and legitimate leader acting on behalf of Limerick’s citizens in their domestic and international interactions. Critically, our new mayor will have regular engagements with the Government. This will go some way towards addressing the point about overcentralisation.

The directly elected mayor position is not without its detractors, however. Some argue that it adds an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and elected councillors will have reduced influence on policy. Research has shown that direct elections can foster populism and personalist politics.

What is clear is that the implementation of a directly elected mayor will change the political dynamic as well as the governance’s approach in Limerick. Other counties will be watching with interest. Looking abroad, some would argue that the mayor of London is now one of the most important political positions in the UK. It has provided local government in London more influence over policy making. On the other hand, concerns have been raised in Canada over the disparity between the increasing demands of the role and the somewhat confining legislation.

In Limerick, the future of local democracy hinges on empowering the directly elected mayor to have genuine influence. As the role evolves, local democracy’s importance will grow, contributing to more joined-up thinking, reduced centralisation and a targeted approach to Limerick’s needs. In effect, this will affirm that local people are best placed to understand local concerns. It brings to mind a quote from the great Greek philosopher, Aristotle: “If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.”

Mr. Gerard Darcy

I thank the committee and fellow county councillors for this opportunity to speak on behalf of Tipperary County Council about the future of local government.

Our local authorities are multipurpose bodies that are responsible for delivering 1,100 services to citizens at local level. They have experienced significant reform in recent years, impacting on the structures, functions, resources and organisation of local government systems, and they have continued to respond to the various challenges put before them.

The challenge of getting candidates for local elections is a major one in Tipperary. Indeed, it is our foremost challenge. The lack of interest in local politics among potential candidates can be attributed to a number of factors. First, running for office has become such a challenge, requiring significant time, commitment and resources, and can impact on people’s personal and professional life. Second, the role of the councillor is demanding, requiring councillors to be available to their constituents at all times, attend meetings, be on the phone and work collaboratively with other councillors. Third, the limited powers of local authorities can make it difficult for them to bring meaningful change to their communities, therefore discouraging potential candidates.

The true nature of the position, coupled with its part-time remuneration, presents a barrier for many individuals. The challenge is compounded by the reluctance of potential candidates to commit to a role that needs significant time and energy. This conflicts with their family life, jobs, businesses, farms and social lives. Moreover, the absence of interest from family members in continuing the tradition of serving as local councillors underscores the need for innovative approaches to rejuvenate engagement among the grassroots. In Tipperary, six councillors of long standing, including myself, will retire this year, yet not one of our family members will stand.

The under-representation of women and minority groups in local government poses a fundamental obstacle to achieving true democracy. Addressing this disparity requires proactive measures, fostering inclusivity, targeted recruitment efforts, mentorship programmes and policies promoting diversity within political institutions. The representative gender balance in Tipperary is approximately 22%. We have an active women’s caucus. The work of organisations such as Women for Election and See Her Elected in promoting women’s interest in local government is to be encouraged and acknowledged.

The power of local government is being impacted by over-reaching legislation and national policy documents. Local authorities in Tipperary must contend with external factors that influence their autonomy and efficiency. The perverse influence of over-reaching legislation and national policy documents restricts the discretion of elected members and undermines the ability of local government to address communities’ specific needs. An example of the centralised nature of local government systems can be seen in how the increased number of ministerial guidelines, especially concerning local political areas, is now the norm. To mitigate this issue, there is a pressing need for greater decentralisation of decision-making powers and a more collaborative approach between local and national authorities. In most other European countries, local authorities have far greater responsibility compared to Ireland and deliver a multitude of additional services in health, housing, education and so on.

Addressing online abuse, threats and harassment is the single biggest issue facing many elected members, with 72% of councillors being victims of threats, harassment or intimidation, 48% having considered leaving their roles and 60% having experienced threats online. We need to address these issues.

Regarding education and awareness campaigns, we need to develop social media policies that will enforce clear guidelines and we need to provide training for councillors who are sufferers of online abuse. We also need to strengthen the legal protections against harassment.

I am conscious of the time and am going as quickly as I can.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Darcy.

Mr. Gerard Darcy

We have to work with social media companies to put in place the tools for detecting and mitigating against these online bullyboys.

Despite the challenges, democracy holds a promise of positive change. Local governments can play a crucial role in tackling societal issues such as climate change and housing affordability. We are embracing new trends such as smart data and the use of self-service options, which can boost governance, efficiency, etc. By integrating various data sources, such as social media and public records, local authorities can better understand their communities’ needs. Additionally, adopting self-service options can enhance citizens’ satisfaction and reduce service costs. However, the implementation of these digital changes requires investment, collaboration, cultural shifts and, ultimately, tailoring services to meet citizens’ needs.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Councillor Darcy. He will have an opportunity to answer questions and he can come back with further comments. I call the Mayor of Waterford, Councillor Joe Conway.

Mr. Joe Conway

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach agus leis na Seanadóirí. Tá mé fíorbhuíoch dóibh as an deis seo a thug siad chun mo thuairimí suaracha a nochtadh don choiste anseo.

I have a short few words to say and this is based on two worries I have for the future of local democracy. First, I want to make a distinction between local administration and local democracy. As councillors, we very often get absorbed with local administration. We have budgets, reserve powers and local area planning, and these things can occupy a great amount of a councillor’s time. However, as councils in local democracy and local administration in Ireland, like any organisation, we have to ask ourselves the fundamental question of whether this business is relevant and, if not, whether it is redundant. There are two salient reasons that local government and local democracy in Ireland are becoming quickly redundant. They are the lack of participation of young people in local democracy and the very unequal involvement of the female gender in local democracy.

We can address these issues in a couple of ways. Most councils are working with might and main to achieve the registration of young people and also to make sure we have some sort of a vibrant public campaign to get the young people who have registered interested in voting. This may involve a new programme of civics or citizen education in second-level schools, or possibly the designation of schools as saffron flag schools, which was discussed some years ago. Rather like the green schools or environmental schools, saffron flag schools would have an accredited programme of citizen education in the school.

Moving on from that, our council has 32 members, of whom six are female. It is not like this august body, the Seanad, which is nearly at gender balance, with 26 female Members out of 60. That is largely down to the fact there is a big input from the Taoiseach's nominations. With the movement towards directly-elected mayors, I wonder if we will be looking at a scenario down the road of mayors having mayoral appointments to the council, whereby the youth and female imbalance might be addressed.

I am 70 years of age. I am looking around here and see that most of us are certainly faoi bhláth agus muid meánaosta - we are in the full blast of middle age - and some of us are getting on into the winter of our years. It tells its own story that we have a lot of grey-haired men here, very few women and no youth. I know it is all relative but the Cathaoirleach will understand the thrust of what I am saying.

An Cathaoirleach

There is not enough youth.

Mr. Joe Conway

We need to address that very serious imbalance. Unless we do, our local democracy is going to flounder.

Is é sin mo cheannsa. Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste as an deis seo.

Ms Aoife Flynn Kennedy

I thank the committee for the invitation and also for the advance notice. This has provided me with the opportunity to discuss this issue with and gather the views of the representatives in County Wicklow and, most importantly, across party lines as an issue of local government, as an issue for all and, fundamentally, as a serious issue for our local communities. As such, I speak today not solely as the Cathaoirleach of Wicklow County Council but as the voice of the elected members of County Wicklow.

The removal of town councils in 2014 is seen as one of the greatest challenges and a decision that has reduced the role and power of local councillors significantly. It is understood and acknowledged that local decisions should be made as close to the community as possible. However, the removal of town councils and the continuous centralisation of services are removing the decision-making from our communities. The results of this are decisions that are against local views and made with total disregard for local knowledge, creating a sense among our communities that their views are not valued and that this is, therefore, a disengagement from local democracy. The return of power and decision-making at the closest level to the community is essential.

I highlight the concern regarding the move to establish non-elected committees at local level, such as town teams or town centre first teams, and the lack of acknowledgement of elected representation in both strategy documents and on-the-ground committees, which is very concerning. In fact, it would appear that despite the vast majority of councillors being community activists who chose to run for public office because of a commitment and love for their areas, they are being viewed as non-community representatives. I wonder what message this is sending. If people are involved in their community, if they are volunteers, if they are people who give all of their time and then decide to run for public office, they will no longer be deemed capable of representing the views of their neighbours and wider town. While town teams have seen success, this generally relates to their ability to access funding that is not available to local authorities or councillors. As such, I wonder how reflective this is of success or of greater community representation.

Elected councillors should be centrally involved in these committees and we continue to support the work of our local public participation networks, PPNs, which were established to increase community voices. The removal of power and the diminishing of the role of councillors are now impacting the number of individuals looking to take positions. People run for public office because they want to effect real change, and if that is not an option and their efforts are seen as irrelevant, the role itself decreases in value.

Added to this is the increase in face-to-face and online abuse experienced by councillors, in particular female councillors. The role has become even more challenging. How do we create a more diverse and inclusive chamber when existing councillors are genuinely fearful at times? Wicklow County Council has seen the resignation of three councillors during this term of office; all have been women and all have been replaced by men.

Finally, I would like to bring to the attention of the committee the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, research, “The 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government”. I urge the committee to read it in detail and hear the views and experiences of councillors today.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the officeholders for their contributions. We will now go to the Senators. I call Senator Victor Boyhan.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Councillors Dalton, Finn, Teskey, Darcy, Conway and Flynn Kennedy for their contributions. There is a certain amount of recurrence in the themes from our engagement with the councillors, which is understandable. Clearly, they are the same messages and the same concerns, and it is important that we have taken them on board.

Many people made written submissions. When I was looking at them this morning, one that jumped out was from one of our councillors in County Kerry, who stated: “It is truly an honour to serve as a public representative but if one did not already have a passion for it, it would be a hard sell.” That is true. The recurring theme is that people really love local politics. Nobody is in this if they do not like it. They have a passion. They are activist by their very nature and we find they are involved in all sorts of things. They are the same people who come into local government and they are the people we need to retain. That is an important point.

I particularly noted Councillor Conway's point about the winter or autumn of life. I would like to think I am still in the spring of my life, in fact, the big spring of my life, but I take on board what he is saying.

Mr. Joe Conway

It is a sensitive issue.

Senator Victor Boyhan

We need diversity in local government. We need local government that represents people, diverse as they are, different as they are, because that is the rich tapestry of life and the rich tapestry of communities. It is about collective democracy and collective representation.

There are three issues I want to ask about. A recurring theme in the councillors’ concerns is that they need to be equipped to do the job and that means independent legal advice, independent financial advice and independent planning advice. Without the independence of that advice, they sometimes cannot adjudicate on the issues put before them by their manager.

Please touch on those issues. Explain how advice from the manager that may be contrary to councillors' fundamental beliefs and policies is a cause of conflict within local authorities and what is the best way to deal with that situation.

We are familiar with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, its power and supports which are funded by taxpayers. The CCMA relies on external advice but councillors do not have a similar body. Today a former Minister suggested the creation of an independent agency or body that would procure independent financial and legal advice. That is a good idea as it would enable councillors to do their job. Well done and I thank councillors for engaging in a meaningful manner. I also thank everyone for making written submissions as they are really valued and appreciated.

Senator Frances Black

I sincerely thank all of the councillors for coming in today to share their expertise and experience with us. I also thank them for the amazing work that they do. They do phenomenal work. There is no doubt that being a councillor is a vocation because it is certainly not for the money. Councillors are so passionate about their work. When I travel around the country and meet councillors I see that passion. I once asked a councillor whether he would run for the Dáil. The person is present today but I will not out him because he would kill me. He said why would he try to become a Deputy when he can be in his own community, which is where he wants to be. It is his life.

I believe the work we have undertaken in the Seanad is really important. I think it could represent a rethink of the very centralised top-down approach that has traditionally characterised the approach to local democracy. It is so important that we hear from councillors who work in local government and serve communities. Councillors contend with major challenges to represent their communities. They display so much passion and resilience. Their voices should get a greater airing in the Oireachtas.

The submission we received from LAMA rightly points out that recent legislation passed through this House, supported by the Government, took yet more influence out of councillors' hands, which I think is very worrying. As we do this programme of work to generate ideas, how do we improve and empower local democracy? We must reflect on the role the Oireachtas has played in getting it in this situation, and that is vital.

I have a few questions and want to highlight a couple of things. Some councillors highlighted the issue of abuse on social media and I brought up this issue this morning as well. Online abuse has gone on for years but has intensified recently which has safety implications for councillors and impacts people's willingness to engage with politics. I am sure that has been realised by some of our guests. How do the councillors think we can protect them, particularly in terms of mental health and safety? How can we promote a more positive and inclusive political sphere?

I know that the following issue is a huge question. Can our guests tell us what they have found to be the most challenging parts of being a councillor? What change do they feel is the most urgent?

During this morning's session, we heard from former Ministers who expressed divergent views on whether town councils should be restored. What do the councillors think of that?

Councillors must take on an ever-increasing amount of work these days and familiarise themselves with increasingly complex issues. Do they think secretarial support and policy advice would help them going forward with all of the amazing work that they do?

Senator Mark Wall

I welcome all of the councillors. I thank them for all of the terrific work that they do. We all know they do terrific work. I will go through a couple of the testimonies, starting with Carlow County Council. I am very familiar with Carlow as it is a next door neighbour of mine as I live in Athy, County Kildare. Mention was made about the lack of female representation and I think that is huge. Senator Black suggested that we tease out the issue at this committee. Maybe everyone can give the matter consideration because the first six contributors mentioned it. The lack of female representation in local government is a huge issue.

Councillor Flynn Kennedy and I spoke outside about the workplace and her comments hit the nail on the head because for so many people it is a workplace. If we are talking about full-time councillors, then it will become even more of a workplace but a lot of people do not treat local government as such. Definitely we have encountered that as members of the public, etc., invade the privacy of families. Councillors have mentioned this issue and it is a huge issue for many. I do not understand the need to list a home address in respect of voting, registration, etc., and I believe that requirement should be removed. There are a number of Bills on the matter and people are talking about that aspect.

Councillor Teskey is 100% correct. The eyes of democracy in Ireland are looking at Limerick at the moment. Definitely in this House over the last couple of weeks, a directly-elected mayor has been a huge topic. We want to see this work in Limerick. I do because a directly-elected mayor is the future for so many places.

Councillor Darcy talked about the retirement of councillors. There is a television advertisement that says, "When they're gone, they're gone!" When councillors retire there is a lack of knowledge so I believe we need to tap into that knowledge. As I mentioned here before, I suggest we survey councillors and ask them why they have decided to leave, what they would like to see and what the future holds for them. I think this committee needs to look at something like that. As councillors have mentioned, unfortunately many councillors have decided to retire for various reasons. I believe we need to tap into their expertise and ask them why they have decided to leave. As we probably all know, social media may have played a part in their decision but we need to conduct a survey.

Councillor Conway mentioned the interesting idea of a saffron flag. I think this is essential because it is a way to involve our youth in politics, and particularly in local government. How would he see that initiative work? I ask because we can include his suggestion in our report but the saffron flag idea is something that has a part to play in the future of local government and, indeed, democracy in this country.

I would say to Councillor Flynn Kennedy that I am struck by towns teams. I have spoken to her colleagues, Senator Casey, about the matter. I am from County Kildare and I was a councillor for 11 years but I never came across the idea and I am shocked at the way it is playing out in some local authorities. I believe we must tackle the situation immediately because everybody in this room has put their name on a ballot sheet and were elected by their local people, which is how democracy works. I do not think town teams have any part to play in the future of democracy in this country. It is a huge idea and I ask Councillor Flynn Kennedy to fill us in a bit more on the matter. It is not happening in some of the local authorities, of which I am aware. For me, it is not democracy.

Senator Pat Casey

I welcome all of the councillors here this afternoon and thank them for their initial contributions. The themes are the same this afternoon as this morning but may be presented slightly differently and from a different perspective. The one theme I noticed was the restoration of powers and how to restore powers to local democracy. Simply, without power, there is no democracy. Over the years powers were eroded. I refer to my time as a councillor, from 2004 until I left. Power was limited at the time of the last county development plan, which was the last democratic role played by councillors. With the advent of the national planning framework and the Office of the Planning Regulator, a significant number of powers have been taken from councillors.

It is vital that we have balanced representation in terms of having more female representation. Fair play to Carlow County Council, which has 50:50 representation. Wicklow County Council has a significantly long way to go. Wicklow County Council ended 2019 with probably the highest female participation but, sadly, three female councillors have vacated their seats and been replaced with male councillors. The issue falls into the whole situation of security and social media. That definitely has a significant influence on what is happening at the moment.

This morning we spoke about providing councillors with support, whether financial, legal or planning, which Senator Boyhan mentioned. The former Minister, Noel Dempsey, mentioned that a shared service approach might be the way to do this. He suggested that we provide a body of people that each council can reach out to when they need independent advice. In fairness, the top table puts a lot of pressure on councillors when they want to and perhaps are a little liberal with the truth of what councillors can and cannot do. Overall I served for 12 years as a councillor and some of my happiest times were spent in local democracy because a councillor is at the heart of democracy, is the first person with the issue, meets people to discuss day-to-day issues and resolves a lot of the day-to-day issues everybody has. Councils have huge role to play in the future. What that role is, nobody is 100% sure and that is the reason for our discussions on where we see local democracy moving forward.

Councillor Darcy said his council provides 1,100 services to his community. Whenever there is an emergency in this country, the first place that national government looks towards for solutions is local government.

We are all interested in seeing how the office of mayor will work in Limerick. It will determine how mayoralties will be rolled out elsewhere. It will be critical to how local democracy is rolled out in the future. I thank all the witnesses for attending.

Senator Shane Cassells

Let me go through some of the points raised. On full-time councillors, the fact that what former Minister Noel Dempsey called for here this morning needs to be introduced is significant. His point was not just about remuneration. He referred to the number of statutory reports from national level that councillors are now expected to read. Many say they do not have time to read them, but the reality is that if they are not read and officials are not probed, the consequences will be felt on the ground. Mr. Dempsey said our councillors need the space to read the reports. Eighty per cent of the work might be representational but if the remaining 20% is not done properly, it can have consequences for our local areas. That is the basis on which he argued that if councillors are not given a full-time role, they will not have the time and space to read significant documents, which in many cases are based on overarching Government scenarios. It is a question of providing a counterbalance. I endorse Mr. Dempsey's call.

With respect to online disinformation, I am my party's media spokesperson. We worked on the online media safety Bill. In the past week, Coimisiún na Meán has set up the online complaints portal. There were 108 complaints received in a week and the commission is now acting on them. Therefore, we do have the systems in place. They will take time to bed in and to be reactive but the work is being done.

Councillor Finn referred to a representation ratio of 1:160,000. I am very au fait with this, having introduced a town council Bill during the previous term. The circumstances are frightening. France is a genuine example of connectivity at a granular level between citizens and their elected representatives.

Councillor Teskey referred to the mayoralty in Limerick and cited the example of the Mayor of London. During the UK Covid hearings, the Mayor of London, Mr. Sadiq Khan, spoke about the powers he had to keep the citizens safe. They looked towards him, not Mr. Boris Johnson, for implementation. Culturally, it will be a change for us in Ireland to have this kind of focal point. It will be very positive, however. I hope it goes really well because it could have a positive impact on the rest of the country.

Councillors Darcy and Conway referred to finding candidates and to people leaving the system. We are always guilty of looking towards younger candidates. Before Christmas, we had a unionist representative here who spent 14 years in the local government service in Northern Ireland and who, after leaving that service, became a councillor. She had a bank of knowledge to offer us. That is very important.

On Councillor Flynn Kennedy's point on the removal of town councils, I am a firm advocate. We have a job to do to convince people. I made a point to my great adversary, Deputy Phelan, this morning when we were speaking about this. We have moved, because of national policy, from what may be a very rural scenario to an urban-centric Ireland. Therefore, it is right that we should have councillors to represent the larger urban centres being created because of national policy.

Senator Emer Currie

I thank the witnesses for being here and, more importantly, for their work and leadership in their communities. Reference was made earlier to people not following in the footsteps of family members in politics. I did follow and knew what I was getting into. Also, I came from an environment where I knew acutely what it was like to feel under threat. Your commitment to your values and your hard work keep you going. So, too, does your success rate. If you do not feel you are making the change you got into politics for, it diminishes your self-worth and does not inspire others to take up the mantle in communities. This has been heard very clearly today and needs to be taken very seriously. Community members used to say I should go into politics because I was an activist. On the day I went into politics, I was greeted with cynicism. We have to tackle that. Sometimes the abuse we get is actually from other political representatives. Do the witnesses believe we need to be talking about a code of practice for political representatives?

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place, not just because of centralised democracy but also because of management, which does not want to take on additional responsibilities. When I examine what is done in the context of childcare and municipal responsibilities in other European countries, I see opportunities for the councils but feel the pushback from our chief executives. I question whether there is enough oversight of the chief executives' work.

I would like to witnesses to feed back on those two issues, if possible.

Senator Sharon Keogan

The witnesses are all very welcome. I truly value the work that each and every one of them does within the community.

When I was elected to office here in 2020, the first thing I set about doing, on which I worked very hard with my Independent colleagues, was getting councillors the pay rise. The pay they got in 2019 was deplorable. Why anyone did the job for just €17,500 per year, I just do not know. The pay has improved because we lobbied like mad for that to happen. We lobbied to make sure councillors would get €2,500 towards a security allowance to keep their homes and offices safe. That was very important to me because I was once attacked as a councillor.

It is great to see Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael engaged in this cross-party effort on councillors, but we must remember that the systemic disempowerment of councillors we are witnessing is happening under the current Government. Let us think of a few things it has removed. It has removed the section 183 reserved function for the disposal of council-owned lands to the Land Development Agency. It has removed the Part 8 reserved planning functions until the end of this year for councils' housing developments. It has removed councillors from governing authorities of universities under the Higher Education Authority Act 2022. Councillors will be removed from joint policing committees once they are replaced by safety partnerships. Legislation in this regard is going through the Dáil. Councillors must leave it to Government Senators and Deputies from their parties if they want things to remain the same. Councillors must not allow them to take away their power. We can do only so much in here as Independents; we just do not have the power. We will shout on councillors' behalf but it is their own parties – Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party – that will ultimately take away their powers. It certainly will not be done by any Independent here.

Mr. Adam Teskey

I concur with the last speaker in particular. I am in a unique position in that Limerick will try to pave the way towards the creation of a new democracy, namely, a return of power to the people.

Uisce Éireann is one of the biggest instruments hindering local representatives in County Limerick. When we need to make a phone call we have to ring a Dublin number. We are not allowed to ring the local area office or local area manager anymore. In my constituency we have had a boil water notice for more than 12 months. I have tried to contact an official from Uisce Éireann three times and I have left three voicemails for him. He has not yet phoned me back in relation to boil water notices affecting my area in Askeaton. That is not good enough.

The Mid-Western Health Board is gone. Central government has taken everything from local politicians. As a member of the Fine Gael Party, I have brought this up with my party but nobody listened to me. Maybe someone at this platform will listen to me. It is sickening for me, as a public representative who meets the public everyday, to look in the eye someone who comes to me with a problem, be it with Uisce Éireann, the health system or An Garda Síochána where morale is so low, and not to be able to give a response. We are unable to hold anyone accountable on the other end of the phone. It is back to the executive-style functions of the local authorities whereby we have little or no direct say in local government, even as local councillors. The executive function has too much power. All we have locally is power over planning and roads, and that is nearly it. That is a sad reflection of where we are in 2024. This country was formed for independence, democracy and the right of the citizen to speak. That has been devolved from us.

I ask Senators to take on board what I have said. I presume some of my colleagues will echo my sentiments. I strongly believe that we need to return power to local councils in a constructive way. I hope the directly elected mayor will offer some hope and shape that for the citizens of Limerick. It goes far but not far enough to say to a person that we will have interaction with the Government only three times a year. That is not good enough. The directly elected mayor needs to be able to return power to the local person in Limerick. We should see that as a pilot, whereby we test it out and return power in a democratic fashion so that it is exercised with accountability to the people. As a councillor, I appreciate the interactions I have had with Senators today and I thank the committee Cathaoirleach, Senator Daly, for giving us this time to record our sentiments on this platform.

Mr. Gerard Darcy

I agree with everything Mr. Tesky said. In regard to the retiring councillors, I have been a councillor for 33 years. I was first elected in 1991 and have six successive local elections behind me. I come from a family that is steeped in local government. My dad was a councillor between the mid-1960s and mid-1980s. His uncle was a councillor in the early 1920s. It is in our blood. I have three children. One is a teacher here in Dublin, one works in Limerick for a financial institution and my son is a farmer. They see the time I put in. I decided to retire after 33 years because, as someone said earlier, I am getting into the autumn years and there are a few other things I want to do before I get to be an old man. I was asked at the time which of my lads was going to go for the council. My children said they were sorry, but they could not do it. It is not possible for anyone in my house to seek a nomination from the Fine Gael Party. They all have an interest in it but it is simply not possible because they have to hold down a job and their lives are extremely busy as it is without taking on what is now almost a full-time job.

In 1991, when I joined the council, the old north Tipperary chamber was then in Nenagh. My expenses for the day of a council meeting were £9.80 because I only lived five miles from the council centre at the time. None of us came into it for the money and we are still not in it for the money. If we were, we would be on a loser.

Ms Colette Finn

To some extent the ending of the dual mandate was the height of public sector reform at that time. In theory, there was a shift in power. Since governments have tried to reform local government, if anything they have made it worse. The 2014 legislation that did away with the town councils meant we went from 114 to 31 local authorities. How is that seen as decentralising power? Much lip service is paid to reform. There are also things that just will not work. We have to be serious about it.

We also need to get better at enforcement in Ireland. We make rules and everyone just shrugs and nothing happens. For example, there were protests in Cork in relation to the library. I spoke on television about how there are certain standards of behaviour that are acceptable in a democracy and there are certain standards that are not. The response I got from the Garda Commissioner was that we should not make martyrs of these people - like, seriously. We have to be serious about what we are going to do. I appreciate that the Senators have all given their time today and are listening to us. However, we are saying the same thing over and over. Take for instance the HSE, which is now setting up regional health boards. Instead of looking at the fact that the health boards had a problem, let us look at them and see what is not working, as opposed to setting up one big conglomerate which we can all blame. I am sorry but I wanted to say that.

Ms Andrea Dalton

I was wondering why the Cathaoirleach looked past me when he was looking for someone youthful in the audience. Senator Casey might have misunderstood me. The population is 50:50 men to women but our representation is only 90:10. We are a long way off equal representation.

Senator Boyhan asked could we do with independent advice and finances. What decisions do we make or what powers do we have that need such independent advice? Give us the powers first and the advice afterwards. Councillor Darcy mentioned, as I did in my opening remarks, that it is not possible to work full time and be a county councillor. The Chambers comprise farmers, part-time workers and retired people. I do not know how many full-time people are there. There may be a teacher or a principal or someone who has great flexibility at work. We are cutting out a whole section of people in society who are not being represented at local government. Going forward, they are not going to be represented at local government unless some changes are made. We need to move towards decentralisation. We need to increase decision-making capacity at local level and work more towards a local government system that is more in line with those of our European counterparts.

Ms Aoife Flynn Kennedy

I am going to go against some of the views that have been expressed because I have worked full time for the whole time I have served. I need to work full time. I have a large family so it has not been an option. I enjoy my full-time role. It adds to the contribution I make in the chamber as I work in the housing sector. However, it has been a challenge. We talk about women in politics and getting involved in politics, but for me, one of the biggest challenges is the practical stuff. It is that, when I organise childcare to 5 p.m. and then a decision is made to extend a meeting beyond time. It is having my annual leave for the year booked by all by council meetings and then a decision is made to have a whole lot of extra council meetings. I have no problem using my annual leave and organising myself for my community because I absolutely love my community and I love this role. However, work with me and help me to be able to do that and manage those times. I have seen other female colleagues in County Wicklow who, when a meeting is deferred, have to get up and leave. They are being denied the opportunity to participate in those meetings because they have to collect their kids. They are stepping away from it. If it was a paid, full-time role, maybe I would not make the decision to work full time. That is the other argument.

In terms of independent advice, I would love that. We have had a number of occasions in Wicklow where we have had to seek legal advice, that legal advice has come from the executive and you always wonder if it is really independent. Some of my more experienced colleagues who are here today would have other examples of when that has been required. I would love that independent advice, both financially and legally. I would love independent support as well when I get threatening and abusive stuff online. I would like to be able to ask somebody how I should handle this and how I can protect myself. We have had training sessions on such issues in the chamber but it is only when it is presented to you that you really need that advice.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Councillor Joe Conway want to come back in?

Mr. Joe Conway

No, I am fine.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank everyone for their contribution. We will move directly on to the next session. If people need to come and go, they are more than welcome to do so. Some of the members have meetings to go to, but they will be coming back as well.

In alphabetical order by county, as Béarla, unfortunately - if we did it in Irish it would be a different running order - we have County Cork first. The county is fortunate to have great neighbours. Maybe County Kerry is not so fortunate to have great neighbours. I call Councillor Gearóid Murphy.

Mr. Gearóid Murphy

Go raibh maith agat. My submission concerns the personal legal liability of councillors in the performance of our duties as public representatives. As I speak, I am conscious of speaking with the benefit of absolute privilege conferred upon me as a witness before this committee by section 17 of the Defamation Act 2009. This is the first time outside of my professional work as a barrister where I have spoken with absolute privilege despite being a member of a local authority for almost seven years. During this time, I have sat in hundreds of meetings where I have discussed and voted on matters of public importance, including the most recent county development plan; several revenue and capital budgets, which allocated billions of euro of public money; a nomination vote for candidates aspiring to the Presidency of Ireland; and the council's performance on important public matters, such as housing and the environment. However, in none of those meetings was I afforded absolute privilege, as Oireachtas Members are and as I have been here today.

At present, there is no stand-alone privilege recognised in statute as specifically applying to elected members of local authorities in the carrying out of our duties, not even under qualified privilege which is far more restricted than absolute privilege. This is despite the similarities between the duties of councillors and those of Oireachtas Members. It is to be recognised that defamation involves a balance of rights between the claimant's right to a good name and the defendant's right to free speech. However, public representatives are a unique case as we have a democratic mandate and a duty to hold public bodies and officeholders to account and to highlight and debate matters of public interest. In the case of Oireachtas Members, legislation has recognised the importance of ensuring that public representatives are not hindered from this duty by fears of personal financial ruin if they are sued based on an utterance in the chamber. However, for local authority members, this imperative has not yet been recognised in statute.

The possibility of a councillor being sued based on his or her contributions in debate is not some abstract concept. For example, in 2018, at one of the local authority meetings convened for the purposes of considering nominations to the Presidency, in response to questioning by a councillor it was reported by the Irish Examiner that one of the candidates had accused that councillor of libel. According to the same report, the candidate then stated, "I have gone to the High Court before. I hope you are protected by privilege." It is self-evident that this sort of dialogue would have a chilling effect on debate unless the participants are indeed protected by absolute privilege. It is equally clear that nominations for the Presidency, the highest office in the land, are of the utmost public interest and those who decide on this need to be free to rigorously and robustly question candidates. I would recommend that the Oireachtas consider extending the defence of absolute privilege to statements made by councillors during meetings of their local authorities and associated committee. This would recognise the special nature of our duties with regard to holding public bodies and public officeholders to account.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I bring the next speaker, Councillor Seán O'Donovan, I welcome Teresa O'Donovan and Marie O'Driscoll to the Visitors Gallery. I thank them for being here to see Seán in the Seanad. Seán, you are most welcome.

Mr. Seán O'Donovan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today. I am a councillor for the Bandon-Kinsale municipal district, where six elected councillors represent approximately 48,000 constituents. The role of county councillors is to represent our constituents. We are the people on the ground listening to the issues on a daily basis. When we are on the ground, we know exactly what our constituents and communities need.

Our role is local decision-making. We need stronger local democracy, more resources, more training and more respect. The power of our chief executives and central government sometimes hampers what we are trying to implement. We need to strengthen and enhance the role of councillors. If we are to encourage more people into local government, we need to be giving extra support to candidates running for election.

I believe I am the only councillor on Cork County Council with a constituency office on the main street in Bandon. The discrimination is very obvious here. I have a rates bill of €1,500 a year but if I was elected to the Seanad or to Dáil Éireann, I would not be paying rates. Councillors need to be on equal par with other elected representatives.

Every day our constituents can see the work we carry out, whether it is in housing, planning, roads, community projects or as volunteers in our communities. As councillors, we should have more powers to compel organisations, such as Uisce Éireann, to come in and meet us when we ask them to come to our meetings or even to reply to our emails, which rarely happens.

When family and friends see the constant abuse and comments on social media, they ask us why we do it. I do it because of my passion for my community that I live and work in and for the people who trusted in me when they voted for me. Threats on social media are a regular occurrence and should not be allowed to happen. We need governance and stricter enforcement for those keyboard warriors. In a society where we are all equal and democratically elected, we need more support from our Government.

I often ask myself what is the best way I can represent my constituents but find that sometimes decisions are already made for us. This is frustrating to say the least. I am only one of 949 elected county councillors in our country and I am sure all the rest of them come across the same issues that I am talking about. I appeal to this committee to implement change.

An Cathaoirleach

Go raibh míle maith agat, Seán. Thanks very much. Next we have Councillor John O'Donoghue.

Mr. John O'Donoghue

A Chathaoirligh, a Sheanadóirí, a comhairleoirí agus a dhaoine uaisle, as a relative newcomer to the political system I have been surprised in many instances by the mechanics of governance, in particular with its centralised bureaucratic nature. It is frustrating that local authorities are micromanaged to the extent that we are. Almost every decision requires approval at national level, particularly in relation to receiving funding for projects. This ensures huge delays and the costs involved invariably rise drastically by the time the project is approved. This lack of resources for the council to use at its own discretion seriously inhibits the ability of a local authority to function in a truly democratic manner.

The Oxford dictionary defines democracy as control of an organisational group by the majority of its members. The decision, in 2014, to abolish town councils under local government reforms was a blatant contradiction of this notion where responsibility was removed from the hands of the many and placed in the hands of the few. I am aware of the recent report by the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, which found that the current situation of local governance in Ireland is in direct contravention of the principle of subsidiarity, which states that public responsibilities should be managed by those closest to the citizens. This centralised model forces people towards national bodies to solve local issues and that is an abhorrence.

Ireland is an outlier within the EU with its local authorities having less autonomy over their own affairs than those in almost any other EU country. We have less public representatives per capita which reduces the likelihood of all sectors of society being represented. If we are to strive toward a truly democratic ideal, this must be rectified as the current system is too restrictive with many of its members being of the same demographic. Increasing the number of councillors would encourage a more diverse range of candidate.

In the very essence of democracy, handing local authorities control of their own destiny would create a greater level of accountability. Serious problems arise where people are able to hide behind layers of bureaucracy in a system where nobody appears culpable for anything.

Many of the difficulties this country finds itself facing are due to mismanagement on a macro level. Too often we also hear of council executives exercising their executive function to overrule councillors, who are the ones who have been elected by the people to govern in their stead. Putting such power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats is symptomatic of current policy in this country where everything is centralised. Prior to the abolition of town councils, my local town of Killarney was a shining example of resources raised locally being used in a manner in which those contributing to the payment of rates and the election of local officials expected. Resources have now been stripped away, with local authorities being deliberately reduced to the status of beggars who are expected to express deep gratitude for the crumbs from their master's table. When the cupboard is vindictively stripped bare, it is hardly right to castigate the homeowner for not providing a proper meal.

As regards the time constraints and stresses placed on family life, being a county councillor is a full-time job and more often than not one which is done in conjunction with other full-time employment. It is truly an honour to serve as a public representative, but you would certainly require a very understanding partner at home.

I would welcome increased dialogue between councillors in the Republic of Ireland and councillors in Northern Ireland. The question of a united Ireland is one which will probably be put before us during my lifetime. Increased co-operation between both jurisdictions would ensure increased empathy in future dialogues regarding what changes this would bring to local government.

I will conclude with a quote from the American journalist, Sydney J. Harris, who said:

Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be.

We here in Ireland seem insistent on removing this most basic of rights from the majority of its citizens as decision-making at local authority level is slowly eroded.

I thank the committee members most sincerely for their time. My thoughts are my own, but I know from listening to what has been said that they are echoed by my colleagues throughout the land.

Mr. Fionnán Fitzgerald

I thank the committee for the opportunity given to me to make a submission on the future of local government. I am a councillor who was elected for the first time in 2019. I am a secondary teacher with more than 20 years' experience. Public service is an honour and a privilege for all those on whom the opportunity is bestowed. I will outline what I see as some of the obstacles to public service. I hope to touch on a number of topics throughout my contribution.

One issue I find is the difficulty in managing a job along with performing the functions of a county councillor. The times of council-linked meetings are often during working hours. This can make attendance difficult for a councillor who has work commitments. I remain a teacher on a part-time because I enjoy teaching and working in a school environment. It is part of my life. I am fortunate to be able to work at both functions. Members of the public are aware that meetings occur during working hours and I sense that this is a deterrent to those considering public life. I know of many people withdrawing from public life as a councillor due to being unable to handle both work and council commitments. I would like to see local authorities engage in a process whereby times and frameworks for meetings would be established by both council staff and councillors. Sometimes we hear the phrase "If we don't finish our business today, we will continue it on Thursday or tomorrow", which throws every councillor into disarray.

A second issue is the fear of abuse through social media, which has been mentioned by other members here this afternoon. Much of the work of a councillor involves the introduction of policy that is based on State legislation. This situation could lead to enormous pressure and tension being put on the councillor and his or her family, which can deter people from going forward.

As a secondary teacher, I sense that political life is often viewed as a closed society. I am a very strong believer in the capacity of any individual to run for public office and represent constituents. Too often, I sense people believe it to be a private place where entry is only open to those from families with political experience. I encourage this committee's work and the work following it to provide a framework whereby members of the public are encouraged to run for public office. To me, this sense of enclosure around political life has consequences and discourages people from minority groups from seeking public office.

I suggest that there should be a political campaign highlighting the work of politicians and local representatives. I have attended many talks given by universities and third level institutes to secondary students at which they encourage students and put before them the various options and career paths, but I have never yet heard somebody suggest politics as a career. Life as a politician is not presented to our youth as a viable career that should be considered at a young age. Rather, it is put forward as simply to be considered should you be lucky enough to have a solid career behind you, which you can fall back on should your political career falter.

The final issue I wish to raise is the tension I sense between State legislation and local government. State legislation is enacted for the overall betterment of the country. While this is so, there is a strong sense that national legislation does not always fit with the local situation. I have witnessed examples, such as legislation around renewable energy, planning guidelines, and funding for the upgrading of roads to name but a few. In the overall sense, a local public representative is bound and limited by the overarching policy. I cite, as an example, the recent county development plan in the constituency where I live. Sin a bhfuil.

Mr. Niall Botty O'Callaghan

I thank Members of the Seanad and fellow councillors. Before I get into this, it is a privilege to be sitting here with county councillors and listening to everything I have been thinking for the past five years. The worry is whether it will get over to the other side. I understand Senators are here to listen and that is great. I am a first-time county councillor but I served on Killarney Town Council for ten years and I was mayor of the greatest town in the world, Killarney. I love it.

There has been talk of online abuse. I will get personal. This is not in my submission. There is no one sitting in this room that had to go into a room on a Wednesday night and close the door and sit on a bed for three hours crying. I am 6 ft. 2 in. and I am tough, but that was the result of the abuse I received. I had a 12-year-old child and a ten-year-old child, and I had to explain to them what was going on because they got it in school. I am sorry but this is very close to the bone. You have Bob Hope and no hope of controlling that. I got interviewed by Interpol and by the Garda. I took it all the way to anywhere I could go but because of the famous mirror of their IPO addresses, you cannot catch them. We should not pretend that there will be a resolution to it because there is no resolution. People have to go into politics with their eyes wide open. I left politics because of it, but after five years I said I would use it to my advantage. I am committing a sin now in respect of my fellow councillors here because I am the only councillor in the State who got elected without knocking on a door, putting up a poster or canvassing. I used online and nothing else. The difference for me is I took the abuse, I toughened up a little bit and I turned into something that I could use to get myself elected. Ask me if I am going for the next election. Yes. Ask me if I am going to knock on a door. No. Ask me if I am going to put up a poster. No. I am going to do it the same way I did before. You can use online to your benefit. At the end of the day, all I can say is that you have to toughen up to the abuse.

My observation is that the powers of elected representatives have been totally eroded and the power of unelected civil servants has increased immeasurably. I served on the old town councils. We had more power to change things in that system. The creation of the CEO posts in county councils changed the balance of accountability and that has eroded the powers of elected officials. In a way, I wonder what this submission will do, as the whole system as it is today is controlled by faceless civil servants who never have to face the general public to be elected.

My solution would include the restoration of town councils and the abolishment of the CEO position. We should go back to the old county manager position that we always had. More powers should be given back to elected officials. The Civil Service should work for the representatives elected by the people.

I do not want to be nice, so I will be controversial. The question I put to the councillors and everyone else here is whether, other than voting for the budget, their councils would keep going without them.

They would. The CEOs would run the whole show. It does not matter. I am putting in a joint motion with Councillor Marie Moloney, who is a councillor in my area, to reinstate town councils and I encourage every councillor to do the same in his or her area. I ask the Office of Planning Regulator to help us, please God. There is no point in even going into it.

I will refer to the community support fund to show how dysfunctional big policy is. I congratulate the Government on the community support fund as it is a great idea and brilliant for everybody. However, the Government said it would give €1 million to a disability group in Killarney, which had planning and everything done. The group was ready to go and wanted to start building but the Government stated it could not give the money until it had spent €1 million. No one in this room has a community group in their area that has €1 million to spend. While I am independent, when I talk to senior Ministers in every Department from every Government party, they say their hands are tied. Who is tying them? It is civil servants who do not understand. A special needs group had to get a bridging loan of €80,000 to get its development going, after getting great money from the Government. It is like turning The Titanic in a small lake.

I thank the other councillors; it is great to hear everybody. I also thank members of the committee. I hope something will come of this as I did not come from Killarney just to talk.

An Cathaoirleach

Gabhaim buíochas leis an fhinné. I welcome to the Public Gallery the former Minister for local government, Deputy Brendan Howlin. He was here this morning and is back this afternoon. He gave a great contribution in which he spoke about his time in office and reflected on some of the contributions Senators and members of local authorities made this morning on the issue of town councils. He had a lot of good ideas on how we can continue to improve local democracy. While Councillor John O'Donoghue was here, I forgot to welcome Margaret O'Donoghue, Jim Gleeson, Sean and Mary Cavanagh and Robert and Noreen Baker who are in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. I thank them for being here.

Anois, iarraim ar Chomhairleoir Brendan Fitzgerald labhairt.

Mr. Breandán Fitzgerald

It is always difficult following the best town in Ireland but back in Dingle we will do our best. We always try it anyway.

Mr. Niall Botty O'Callaghan

Dingle is second best.

Mr. Breandán Fitzgerald

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach, leis na Seanadóirí agus le foireann Sheanad Éireann as an chuireadh le bheith anseo inniu. Is deis mhór dom é seo agus is deis mhór do chomhairleoirí é ár dtuairimí a thabhairt ar thodhchaí daonlathais áitiúil sa tír seo. Tá cónaí orm i nDaingean Uí Chúis agus tá mé mar chomhairleoir i gceantar Bardasach, Oileáin Chiarraí agus Corcha Dhuibhne i gCiarraí. Beidh m’aighneacht gairid agus ní bheidh mé ró-fhada anseo chomh maith. Is é mo thuairim, nuair atá muid caint mar gheall ar thodhchaí daonlathais áitiúil, go bhfuil muid ag caint mar gheall ar dhá rud; cé atá ag déanamh na gcinntí agus cá bhfuil na cinntí déanta? Leis sin ráite, is iad an dá rud atá á lorg agam ná an cinneadh chun tithe inacmhainne agus suíomhanna le seirbhísí a chur ar fáil do mhuintir Chiarraí, Corcha Dhuibhne agus pobal na Gaeltachta a bheith againn i gComhairle Contae Chiarraí agus in Údarás na Gaeltachta. Chomh maith leis sin, caithfidh Chomhairle Contae Chiarraí a bheith ábalta infheistíocht i gcóras séarachais inár mbailte agus sráidbhailte a dhéanamh mar, gan é seo, níl muid ábalta tithíocht sóisialta a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na háite.

My submission calls for each local authority to have the ability to make decisions locally to provide affordable housing and service sites in its county, without having to make a case to the Department for them. This is important because, as far as I can see in County Kerry, Kerry County Council and the approved housing bodies, AHBs, are the only show in town when it comes to building homes. We need to be able to provide affordable housing and service sites to people in Kerry. The county did not meet the criteria to do this but towns with a population of over 10,000 can make a case to the Department. That means only Tralee and Killarney have any chance of affordable housing and serviced sites and to date, they are still waiting. Between them, Tralee and Killarney make up just over 26% of the population of the county. That means 74% of the population of Kerry have no chance of affordable housing and serviced sites while the criteria are set by the Department. This needs to change.

My other request is that each local authority have the ability to decide where to invest in water and wastewater schemes. If a town or village system does not have this capacity, then no social housing will be developed. They must then wait for Irish Water to invest and upgrade them before the council will make plans for social housing in that village or town. These decisions should be made by the local authority. If a local authority wishes to build social housing, it should be able to do so and not have to wait for Irish Water's capital investment programme.

The future of local democracy is around who makes the decisions and where the decisions are made. I ask the committee in its recommendations to allow local councillors to make those decisions in their county buildings. Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste agus an Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhairleoir. Anois, I call Councillor Robert McDermott.

Mr. Robert McDermott

I thank the Chair for the invitation to address the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. I compliment him and his fellow members on their initiative in hearing the views of members of local authorities, their representative bodies and members of the public on the future of local democracy in Ireland.

I am a first-time councillor elected in 2019 and I am running again. I hope the good people in north Offaly will re-elect me on 7 June. The last five years have been a huge learning experience for me. It has been rewarding but also quite challenging. An issue that has arisen for me, and one I wish to address, is around the format of council meetings and their sub-committees. At the municipal level, there is a section prior to the main meeting which is held in committee. I find this especially useful and if this were to be introduced in the main council meetings, I think it would help both the executive and councillors to discuss critical issues and reach a consensus on prominent issues before the main meeting. I believe this would make the main meeting more productive.

As for the main county meetings, everything that is going to be discussed at the meetings should be available to the corporate policy group. The members of the corporate policy group should have all the reports one week prior to their meetings. Once the corporate policy group has had its meeting, the agenda and the accompanying report should be made available immediately to all councillors, including motions. This will allow all members to have a week to prepare for the main council meeting. The council would then have the opportunity to discuss the agenda with their fellow councillors and prepare adequate responses and questions prior to the main meetings. At present, some councils only share their agenda on Friday afternoon prior to a meeting on Monday. This is hampering councillors in their work and it does not afford them adequate time to prepare or do research. The current practice of emailing councillors corporate reports or presentations after the meeting should cease. These documents should be dispatched immediately with the agenda and if they are not available, they should be presented at the next meeting.

I accept that these suggestions will cause upset and readjustment in the short term but they will lead to much more productive council meetings in the long term. The effect of the current system is that councillors are not adequately prepared for meetings, which can lead to resentment, dissatisfaction and, eventually, to disillusionment. It can lead us to feel as if we are being taken for granted. The current system is not advantageous but the fault is with the system and the timeline of communication by the executive of county councils.

Councillors should be able to work in a healthy environment and represent without fear or favour. Issues, reports and presentations, whether minor or major, are of equal importance to councillors who wish to give their best and be able to participate in meetings, rather than acting as observers because they have had insufficient time since receiving reports.

These suggestions should be uniformly adopted across the country. With the upcoming local elections, now is an opportune time to reorganise council meetings. These points are from my own observations and conversations I have had with long-standing councillors. Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste.

An Cathaoirleach

Anois, I call the councillor from Tipperary, Councillor Andy Moloney.

Mr. Andy Moloney

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invite to make this submission. The Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, must be commended for the work they have don on behalf of councillors in recent years. I have sat through everything since 1999. I was with a party and when I became surplus to requirements, I went my own road, as is well known. I have had the support of many Independent Senators and Teachtaí Dála since then.

We have seen the decimation of local councils, as has been spoken about. I will not go into it too much. I was changed from three different districts in the period of the last three elections and I never moved house. On each occasion I moved, my next-door neighbour could not vote for me. I am not saying he would have, but that is a different point.

An Cathaoirleach

You will have to get better neighbours.

Mr. Andy Moloney

Neighbours' children will always be that way. Our family never moved. The boundaries had taken away all control from local councillors. That in turn has upset the whole flow of people getting involved in local politics and getting onto local councils, from town councils to other local councils. Some of them might have ambitions to be a Senator. Some might have ambitions to be elected to the Dáil. Being independent, however, on our end of it, you lose a big party backing you, which becomes a hindrance.

Somebody spoke about being full-time. I have done that too. I have worked full-time for 30 years and tried to be a councillor in the middle of it, tried to raise two kids and tried to put them through college. As regards the councillor's rate, it is great that we are getting a few extra bob - there is no disputing that as it is much needed - but it puts us over all thresholds for SUSI grants for putting kids through college. We talk about the far right and the far left. Nobody is talking about the man in the middle. The man in the middle is caught for everything and paying for everything. I did not come up here today just to make a submission. You could say I came up to have a rant. I might be one of those people who does not want to come up here every day and do what Members do. I might say to myself, "Look at what Senators and TDs do." I am not cut out for it. I want to be down on the ground dirtying my hands for my community. I want to be involved with local politics, doing local things. Developers trying to build houses cannot do so because they cannot get the bonds and the funds to start building them due to price increases. For example, we could go into the council, say we have land banks here, there and everywhere and suggest they be given to the developers. Every time they build us a house, they could turn over €10,000 in fees to us. They could even pay us back bit by bit and release five or six houses in a scheme of 50 houses and we all would get our money back eventually. We have the land, which is sitting there idle, but we cannot make that decision at a local level and that is another part of the duties that have been taken.

We talk about losing the JPCs. I never saw what the advantage of a JPC was because a superintendent makes the decision, there are confidentiality clauses and most things cannot be said at a JPC meeting. The members of the Garda have a job to do and they should be supported.

Who came and asked the councillors about doing away with the town councils? I cannot think of one councillor who would have said, "That is a great idea." We were told in Tipperary when we were amalgamated in 2014 that we would save €6 million and it would all go into the roads. We cannot even get a pothole filled, never mind a new road. Those are the facts of the matter.

I have 30 seconds left and I have a lot more to say. We need somewhere along the line to get over the line about the differentiating between what a local councillor does, what a Senator does and what a TD does. The number of emails coming to local councillors on issues of national importance is crazy. There are people I see already out on the campaign trail saying they will change the HSE. Top doctors and surgeons and the Minister for Health could not change the HSE. I do not know what the solution is. It is for someone on a higher scale and on a different pay level. I want to see what has to be done. When the money is decided and when the decisions are made at a national level, they fall down to the local councillors and the local level and then, bang, we hit them then. It is like Kerry and Dublin last weekend. If this is not done at a local level, it will not be done at a higher level. Anyone who takes their eye off the ball in Kerry come next September or August will be codding themselves.

Mr. Séamus Morris

It is very hard to follow that, Andy.

An Cathaoirleach

Anois, I call Councillor Séamie Morris.

Mr. Séamus Morris

I was elected to Nenagh Town Council in 2004 and served as a town councillor for ten years until, disastrously, town councils were abolished. I have served as a county councillor since 2009, serving as a dual councillor in the period between 2009 and 2014. I was elected on what was a single issue at the time. It was a roadway project through a council estate. The road is now long built but the ability for anyone to put themselves forward for election based on local issues is all but gone. The last Nenagh Town Council budget, in 2003, was for €3.2 million to be spent in the town, decided by councillors from the town, elected by the people of the town. That is gone now, with nine councils in Tipperary amalgamated into one council of 40 members, down from 113. It was a tough task for the incoming CEO and management team. To be fair, they have performed incredibly well.

What have we lost, though? A recent Council of Europe report has stated that local government in Ireland lacks funding, with only 40% of funding being allocated from central funds. Councillors have lost health service, education services, driver licence services and now, incredibly, water management services. More importantly, we closed down the local area offices, where people had daily interaction with the council, only for them to be replaced by a phone service. We have lost the ability to repair our own houses. We have lost council apprenticeships. The CEOs have too much power, with less and less power in the hands of elected representatives, who go to council meetings mostly to nod-and-wink CEO decisions through.

What is more shocking, though, is the deferral of most decisions to unelected consultants, with most decisions at council meetings needing to go to consultants to first give their expensive opinion. A recent FOI request I made on the cost of consultations for capital projects in Tipperary from 2019 to 2022 was for €11.2 million, with local social housing in the Nenagh MD area costing €31,000 per house in consultant fees. If we had to change a light bulb in the council chamber, we would have to consult a consultant. That is not local democracy.

The end result of all this is lack of interest from our constituents, with little or no engagement in local area plans or Part 8 applications and, worryingly, fewer and fewer people going out to vote. The problem is more pronounced in urban areas, with very poor voting turnout at local elections and even less enthusiasm for local candidates, with political parties struggling to find candidates - in fact, some having to beg people to run.

All and sundry say - we heard it this morning - that it was a mistake to close town councils. By the way, that was done in a near-empty Dáil. If we are to be serious about local democracy, town councils need to be in the conversation. I listened to Niall O'Callaghan speak earlier about abuse and online abuse. I had a knife pulled on me. I have had several solicitors' letters. I have had walls in Nenagh painted with abuse towards me and my family. My family have been threatened, but I am still here. I am here because, at the end of the day, people put faith in me to be here. No one will bully me out of doing what I am doing. The fact of the matter is that I did not come here for a pat on the back. I came here because I think the decision to take town councils away from local people was a disaster. It was not done by online trolls. It was not done by foreign agents. It was done by politicians. All that those politicians have been doing over recent years is blowing smoke up our backsides, telling us they will do this and do that. I did not travel here today to be patted on the back, as I said. We want our local democracy back.

Ms Máirín McGrath

Táim buíoch as an gcuireadh seo, agus is mór an onóir dom a bheith anseo inniu. I am a first-time serving councillor. I was elected at the age of 21 and I am very glad of the opportunity to reflect on my role as a public representative here today.

I have had the opportunity to take part in the young elected politicians programme with the Committee of the Regions in Brussels since my election. It is in those engagements with my European counterparts that I realise how weak our local government structure is in Ireland. It is embarrassing and somewhat insulting that there is such little regard for our councillors, the representatives who are at the coalface of the political system in Ireland. Therefore, the recent report from the Council of Europe highlighting Ireland's underfunded local government system came as absolutely no surprise. In fact, the same body issued another damning report back in 2013 warning that Ireland's local government was too centralised at that time. That was a year before the so-called "putting people first" Local Government Reform Act was enacted in 2014, seeing the last of our town councils and the devolution of many powers from councillors and local government. This really did the opposite of putting people first because the public were and still are the biggest losers in this saga.

Local authorities have little power and we have reducing autonomy to carry out the most basic services we once were expected to do. We are critically under-resourced and underfunded, and I see this particularly in the areas of road funding and essential maintenance because we are micromanaged by the likes of TII and the NTA. Successive governments have prioritised central control over local democracy, but we have an unbelievable level of overreach from Departments, State bodies and their policies. A one-size approach does not and should not work in national policymaking.

A reserved function of local authority members is the formation of county development plans and local area plans.

I valued the opportunity I had over the last couple of years to be involved in both processes. However, it became increasingly clear that the power of the councillors to form their own plans is being eroded due to the overriding power of the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR. It was set up to ensure transparency and oversight in development plan making, or so we understood. Its powers are much greater than that. The OPR dictates and overrules councillors. The locally-elected representatives should have the ultimate power to make our own development plans and as a rural councillor who deals with a lot of planning queries, I just despair at some of the regulations we face daily in our representative role.

Another example that has been raised is the removal of water services from county councils to Uisce Éireann. It has been an unmitigated disaster and the exasperation of the public, particularly in south Tipperary, is immense. Centralisation of public services does not work and I should not have to ring a call centre in Cork to report a water outage in a rural village in south Tipperary.

I am one of the youngest councillors in the country at the moment. However, I see a huge issue with the retention of young, first-time councillors. As many will know I have been engaged in politics since forever, in that I grew up in a political family. How else would I be mad enough to be in this role? I am fortunate to work as a part-time secretarial assistant in the Houses of the Oireachtas with Deputy Mattie McGrath. This affords me the opportunity to act as a full-time and flexible public representative. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge that because I see from councillors here today and in my own chamber the difficulties they have in balancing their role as public representatives with a second employment that is not engaged with the political system. The role is hands-on. We are always at the end of the phone. It is considered to be a part-time job but it is not. It is a role that needs proper respect, resources and subsistence.

My final point is that in preparation for today, I watched the previous session of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee that took place back in November. The councillors here and then were raising a lot of the same issues. One of the issues raised in November was the concerns about the joint policing committees structures and model changing to community safety partnerships. The concern councillors had was about the removal of the councillor's role within this model. Councillors are the first port of call in communities for all sorts of issues including crime and antisocial behaviour. However, despite this being raised as an issue in November, in December Senators here still passed and progressed the legislation for this model and this was disappointing to see. I ask that what we are saying here will actually be taken on board and acted upon.

I will conclude by saying that I enjoy my role despite the frustrations I have aired over the last couple of minutes. I love and cherish the past four and a half years I have had as a local community representative and public representative. I can honestly say that every day, I have learned something new in the role. The job brings many unique encounters and experiences but it is becoming increasingly difficult to do the job the public elected us to do. I wish the committee well in its work. I hope that by virtue of us being here, what we are saying will be taken on board by the powers that be and acted upon in order that for councillors now and into the future, the public's faith can be restored in local government structures. At the core of it all I hope that the services local government provides will improve for the locality and its people. Go raibh míle maith agat a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

Go raibh maith agat. Anois, glaoim ar Councillor Barbara-Anne Murphy.

Ms Barbara-Anne Murphy

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Cathaoirleach, Senators and elected colleagues, I did not come here today to complain, but I do wish to bring several issues and matters to their attention. Over the past 30 years or so we have seen improvements to local government in Ireland. From Better Local Government, to the removal of the dual mandate, to the most recent action programme, Putting People First. It has not resulted in better local government. We still have Oireachtas Members who are deeply engaged in the activities of the local authorities and I cannot see who benefitted from Putting People First. Towns that lost their town councillors and autonomy certainly did not and neither did the councillors or our constituents.

As for ending the dual mandate, does anyone here really, truly believe they are happy to leave the activities, decisions and day-to-day issues of the county council to the elected councillors? In our democracy and on the electoral cycles we work to, that is certainly not the case. It is definitely not the case in County Wexford anyway. Over the past 20 years, many services have been taken from the local authorities limiting our relevance, such as higher education grants, refuse collection, issuing driving licences, water services and so on. I could continue. More powers have been given to the executive. They have been taken away from the councillors. Planning legislation and the OPR hugely restrict our decision-making in many areas when we are drawing up our development plans and local area plans. The former Minister, Deputy John Paul Phelan, mentioned this morning that councillors want to be paid as though they held full-time positions while at the same time saying we do not have full decision-making power. There is an easy answer to that. Give us back the decision-making power. Give us a little bit of power. That is all we want. We want to be able to have autonomy over our own counties. To disperse power from central government back to the local councils requires trust, however, and that trust does not exist. It appears the national government has lost trust in our councillors who are elected by the people. Both the national government and the permanent government have lost trust in us.

Much of Wexford County Council's funding comes from central government and the accompanying terms and conditions are highly prescriptive and restrictive as to how the money is spent. As I said, there is a lack of trust in the decision-making capacity of us, as councillors. I should be insulted. For example, in the town of Enniscorthy it would cost €200,000 to build a social house. Why can the funding not be provided for that social house at that level and, were we to go above it, then we would have to go back and look for permission from the Department? At the moment we have professional architects and engineers at national level checking, re-checking and re-checking again professional architects, engineers and so on at council level. It is a complete waste of resources. It really should not be going on and it is just not good enough.

The current methods of funding of local government appear to me to be designed to keep poorer counties poorer and richer counties richer. In County Wexford we do not stand a chance of ever raising sufficient funding to run our county as we would like. This is despite raising our residential property tax by 15% locally over the last number of years to fund economic and community development, and increasing commercial rates to pay for investment in the Fleadh, which is coming to Wexford this year. Our roads need massive investment and yet we do not receive any extra funding to take that into consideration. A 2022 report from the Local Government Audit Service found that almost half of Wexford County Council roads were structurally distressed. That includes national primary, national secondary and local or tertiary roads. That is the result of decades of underfunding by the State of the 96,000 km of road in County Wexford. It does not look like we will get any more in this year's allocation. That will not make anything better. We know the potholes are one of the things that are brought to our attention all of the time by our constituents but our Government will not invest the money in this.

Joint policing committees being discontinued means our role is being diminished. I am absolutely dismayed. It is further erosion of our role as councillors. There are 34 members of Wexford County Council and six of us are women. Of those six, two have decided not to stand again for election. We took a "Flip-It" photograph of the council chamber last summer. One of my male colleagues said, "Why bother? We do not want to see 28 women in the council chamber. Why would you want to give away your seat anyway?". When I said to him, "I do not want to give away my seat I want to give away yours", he did not laugh. If the elected members of the county council's role is going to continue to be diminished why would a woman put herself forward? Why would anyone put him or herself forward? Central government must learn to trust local government and to devolve more powers to us. Devolution or dispersal of power requires trust, as I said earlier. We must restore trust to allow councillors to do the work we can and should be doing. That is the future of democracy.

An Cathaoirleach

Go raibh maith agat. Anois, glaoim ar Councillor Michael Sheehan.

Mr. Michael Sheehan

A Chathaoirligh and Seanadóirí, I find myself in a tricky situation when the order is alphabetical and the name of your county starts with "W" everyone else has said everything else before you. I am looking here to see what I can do to split hairs but I am thankful for the opportunity to come here and talk about this. I wanted to say that I come from the best town in Ireland but now that has been taken by the lads in the west. Can I clarify for the record that New Ross is the best town in the east of the country. If we could agree on that we are on the hoof. I want to talk about three particular issues that pertain to me and have come up in various guises. I commend all of the cathaoirligh go léir on their contributions. It can be seen how passionate we are about our country and what we do and how passionate we are in saying we are being held back by a lot of constraints nationally.

One of the areas where progress has been made but where there is a great deal more progress to make is in the provision of offices. Councillor O'Donovan spoke about being an officeholder, and an office owner and user. Like him, I am one of probably a dozen county councillors in the country who operate and have my own constituency office, which I have had since 2009. The difficulty is we are now forced to pay rates, rent and utilities. The county councils are very quick, like anybody else, to come to us to say we need to pay our rent or rates. I have had this with the county councils and I said to them, "Hold on a second. Oireachtas Members do not have rates. Why do we have rates? Why do we have to do this?" The difficulty is the county councils say that it is the law. To the Senators, I understand that this is part of the programme for Government. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, intends to change this. I urge him to do it. The reason is we are not eligible for any grants that are going because we are not a business. We cannot look for a rates knock-out because we are not a charity. We are essentially caught in a no-man's-land.

We have agreed to disagree with Wexford County Council, which wants its rates. It involves a couple of years' worth of rates because an argument is going on. It is approximately €8,000 and Wexford County Council wants to go to court over it. I said to its officials we will go to court but the Minister has said he will sort this. We have agreed to disagree until the local elections because, politically, it would be wrong for me to ask for rates to be struck out. It would also be wrong for me to close the office in the shadow of a local election. We are absolutely bolted into this. I ask the committee to take that on board, look at it, and give us parity of esteem. The reason is quite simple. The committee might be told that we have the local representative payment and we might have allowances, but €100 a week for an office is rent for a pretty bad office. The local representation allowance, LRA, is €5,000 a year, which means our allowances are gone. That does not take into account utilities, staffing or, God forbid, if we want to get a sheet of paper. I ask for that to be taken on board.

I will make the second of my three points. The issue of personal liability and privilege was raised by Councillor Gearóid Murphy. There is an issue in that regard. In preparation for the forthcoming local elections, somebody said to me that the Ireland of today is very different from the Ireland of five years ago. It stopped me dead in my tracks because that is dead right. Councillors are getting sustained attacks and sustained undermining. In County Wexford, my colleague, Councillor Barbara-Anne Murphy, another colleague and I, sustained nothing but abuse on the floor of the Oireachtas from a Member from Wexford. We were accused of doing all things during the development plan. We were accused of doing everything that you could think of illegally and we could not defend ourselves. We know that names cannot be mentioned from what is said at the opening of the committee, but it was clearly identified who it would be. We watched somebody assassinate our characters on television and we could not do anything about it. I ask that privilege be extended to us, or reduced on the floor of the Dáil, and that strong Chairs go after those Members who are out to politically character assassinate us on the grounds of Leinster House.

My last point pertains to every public representative but we will increasingly see it pertaining to candidates. We need to deal with online abuse. We need to deal with anonymous accounts that put everything up. As soon as it goes up, it is absolutely true because, sometimes, we feel we live in a post-truth reality. It does not make a difference whether it is true or not. If it is up there, it is a case of, "Let us see them defend it." I ask for that to be dealt with because the Garda is hamstrung in what it can do. Like Councillor O'Callaghan, I have had five incidents where the Garda pursued somebody for homophobic slurs and all sorts of slurs. We recently had situations where our names, addresses, telephone numbers and eircodes were about to be uploaded because of a contentious issue in Rosslare, where people were being told, "Go get 'em." That is where we are at in terms of Oireachtas Members and our politics. We are moving to a post truth and are literally fair game. That can be seen. Councillor McGrath was correct when she said it is very difficult to get candidates to come forward. Anybody who has a decent job or decent life is looking at what we do and asking why they would bother. Particularly if you have a party icon or logo, it is like a birthmark or bull's eye. You are in for it no matter where you go.

My concern is that all this social media is having a corrosive effect. All it is doing is creating a situation where the last thing somebody should ever want to be is a public representative. For all of us here, that is the last thing we ever want to say. I thank the committee for the opportunity. I say, "Well done" and congratulate the Cathaoirleach for listening to us.

Mr. Michael Whelan

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senators for the opportunity to address them. For all intents and purposes, I am a full-time councillor. I stated in my submission that the role of the local authority is being too centralised. This was referred to in the Council of Europe report, which stated that Ireland has the least democratic local government administrative policies and procedures and that while this concern was previously highlighted by that body, nothing had happened. That is not the case. Things have happened and we are rapidly travelling in the wrong direction. More policies and procedures that are less democratic are being introduced. As was said previously, I have been chair of Wexford joint policing committee, JPC, for ten years. I know that will not happen after the next election. Not only can we not elect our own chair, but the number of councillors on the JPC will be limited.

The powers of local authority members have diminished annually, creating a situation where Ireland has one of the most centralised local governments in Europe. Oireachtas Members feel they also have to do a councillor's job to get elected. The attempt to delineate roles through the removal of the dual mandate has failed and has only served to further alienate local authorities. Consequently, as a councillor, I have to compete with my local TD, and his or her office and staff. I recall texting a lady one morning to say that drainage work would be carried out on her road as requested, only to receive a reply that her TD had already told her. This goes too far into my job and what I need to do.

On the budget, which has been referenced, we receive a roads budget, for instance. Every item that is applied for has to be itemised on this allocation to the department to receive this funding. Housing, climate action, rural development and other issues cannot be left to the council for some reason. County hall is full of administrators sending paperwork back and forth from one department to another, while councillors are in the middle with little power to govern. We have to get clearance on everything and applications must be flawless. That might be the reason we spend so much money on consultants, when it comes to applying for funding.

Devolution of more power in the areas of health, education and policing would enhance local government but we see a move in the other direction. The power of representation by local councillors is being diluted. How, we might ask, do we restore powers to local democracy? What key powers do we need to restore? Our budget process does not work. The council, through its process, has little control over the budget. As was said, it is a case of attending the meeting and rubber-stamping what the CEO has decided. Our county development plans were also referred to where, again, we are being governed from the top down.

There are worrying times ahead. It seems it is the decision of good people to leave local politics. One local authority of 40 councillors has had 20 co-options since 2019. That has to be worrying. Something is wrong here. I hear stories of nearly empty council chambers because of councillors joining meetings remotely. That has to be reversed. It is an insult to local democracy that council chambers are empty. The representation of women and minority groups, which was referenced, has improved slightly but more has to be done to enhance workplace conditions. The problem of harassment of councillors, both online and in other ways, also needs to be addressed.

In some ways, councillors have to take some responsibility for losing these powers. We need to fight. I congratulate every councillor here, and the Senators who have taken the initiative to listen to us, but we have to fight for what has been taken away. I will declare that I am the LAMA representative for Wexford. We need to better support the associations so they can support us and fight for what has been taken away.

Mr. Tom Fortune

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senators for the invitation. I am delighted to be here. I made a submission on 26 September and also sent in an opening statement for today. I just have some quick notes I will put before members.

I believe the current situation in local democracy is at crisis.

There is an existential threat to the councillor's role. I have been observing it for the past ten years. It has taken off at the pace of a 100 m sprint in the past four or five years and is getting faster. I hope that this meeting will not just lead to talking, but also to action. We are depending on action to happen quickly because, as we speak, the system is changing and our role is being eroded. We are being undermined and there is significant duplication of our roles. The powers are gone and the town teams, which duplicate our role, are the new vogue. If people are interested, they should get a copy of the terms of reference of the proposed Bray town team. There is so much duplication of the councillor’s role, it is frightening. JPCs have been mentioned. Look at the Land Development Agency, Part 8 of the planning Acts and its implications for us, and housing. Our input into budgets is a joke. The budgets are presented and we are told what they are, but we cannot discuss them at district level because parts of them do not get approved until three months afterwards. It is schoolboy stuff. It is crazy. What about our input into projects under, for example, the URDF? The NTA has all of the funding control. It is slapping down funds and saying they must be spent this way, otherwise it will take them back. Councillors have no input into the matter. If someone is the lucky councillor in whose area funding is going to be spent, that councillor can say, “Yippee, I got it". Anyone can say that. However, if the councillor is not in that loop, it looks as if he or she is doing nothing. It is crazy.

We received correspondence from some Senators recently about changes to SPCs. We probably will not know more about those until after the upcoming elections. Previously, we lost control of refuges. The development plan is a disaster. We are just supposed to sit there and nod it through. We are being told by various sections of central government how we should perform and what we should and should not say. It is ridiculous.

Public participation networks, PPNs, are basically doing councillors’ work. We are democratically elected. All of these other people are not. For example, town team members are being hand-picked. From listening to other councillors, Wicklow seems to be driving this like a coach and horses. In some cases, the members are people who have never been involved in their communities and no one knows who they are. The town teams are being set up as legal entities. How does one stop this? It needs to be stopped because it is crazy.

We cannot get legal advice. Recently, I was looking for a report from a file but was told I could not have it because there was some kind of investigation ongoing. I checked that out and learned what I had been told was not accurate or true. I was told that, under the legal advice, I could not have the file. When I asked to look at the legal advice, I was told it was personal to the executive of the council. I mean, come on. What are we at?

A key role of the public representative is accountability, but we are frustrated in that. We are seen as mavericks if we ask certain questions or speak out too often. Everything going back to the centre is an attack on accountability. That is really what is going on. What is the role and function of the democratically elected councillor in this undermining strategy? Who is driving this? Where has it come from? When was it decided and by whom? None of us knows. I have asked these questions for the past four years and cannot get an answer. The treatment of democratically elected councillors is now so bad that we need a shop steward. Local government is undermined. The local authority is just an administrative hub carrying out the instructions of the Department, the unelected government. Who has oversight of what is happening? As I see it, no one has. There is no initiative. We talk about teamwork and co-operation, but it is all lip service. On a scale of one to ten, with one being terrible and ten being great, we are probably on two where communication is concerned. There is a lack of information, answering of emails and responding to phone calls. Our local authority lashes out press releases with no prior alert to the councillors. Local authorities are applying for funding with no discussion with public representatives. We are just told about project X and project Y.

The key role of the councillor is to help and facilitate constituents in navigating local and national government and to oversee accountability on behalf of the public, but we are being stopped from doing that. Where is all of this coming from? What is going on? What is the role of the councillor? This undermines the councillor’s credibility. Wannabe councillors are telling the public that they will do everything over the next five years, but they will not. They are going into a system where they will be handcuffed from the time they enter.

What is to be done? There has been enough thinking and reports already. While all of this is going on, the councillors’ role is being destroyed for the reasons I have outlined. We are being taken out. Obviously, if they take us out, the Seanad will be next. It is logical. We need action now. We should get something public from, for example, Seanad Éireann in written form and have it sent to the CCMA. I do not know who is in charge of the CCMA, to be honest. No one seems to be in charge and it can do what it likes. We are being steamrolled. I feel very strongly about this, as my cathaoirleach will tell people.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the contributors for their presentations. I will now take general questions from Senators and invite the witnesses to reply. I ask that everyone keep the questions and answers short and to the point.

I call Senators Boyhan and Black.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Before I speak, I welcome Councillor Anna Grainger of Fine Gael, whom I see in the Public Gallery. She works in the Oireachtas as well. She has been listening attentively to these proceedings.

I will not take up too much time. This meeting is about the councillors coming to us. I was a councillor for many years, so I have experienced the same issues. It seems to be a case of repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, and I am not sure how much we are learning.

This is a political chamber, so I do not have a problem being political, but many of the councillors present come from political parties. Many of the issues in question – JPCs, the LDA’s property disposals, section 183 disposals and the erosion of councillors’ powers – are happening on the watch of their parties. What does that say about them and their parties? Just think about it. Recently, the Seanad debated JPCs and the question was defeated by the parties in government, whose Members sit on the side of the Chamber where the councillors are now sitting and stall Opposition Members, who are very few but continuously table motions to support councillors of all parties and none. I welcome that there are many Independent councillors present. That is fantastic. It is not easy to be an Independent councillor, as such councillors have no supports or backup other than their own. What I take from the number of Independents present is that they have considerable energy, commitment and determination because they want to make their communities better places in which to live, work and prosper. That is important. We need to aid them.

I acknowledge the significant work done by the AILG and LAMA. My commitment to the councillors – all members of this committee will do the same – is to include in the report the key issues they have raised with us in their submissions. They will see those reflected in the report. We are committed to pursuing the agenda of ensuring better local government and a better place for the councillors to do their work in terms of local democracy. However, those in parties should ask the hard questions. It is not for the want of communication. I have communicated with the approximately 950 councillors. I have told them this time and again. Those in the parties have leverage. They elected Members to this Parliament. They should remember who stands with them and supports them in their endeavours. The councillors made good points today, but they have to ask the TDs and Senators in their respective parties what they are doing for them. Let us move people out of here and new people in. Let there be new energy and new people who are committed to local government.

I will finish on this point. Let us work together. We keep bringing proposals to the House and tabling amendments to legislation to support councillors of all parties and none, but they are constantly rejected. I will illustrate the point. I commit to sending out a schedule of the key decisions that were taken in this House and the voting record on same. When the councillors receive them, I ask that they pursue the matter from the top of their parties to the bottom. Only together, across parties and none, will we deliver better local government for the communities the councillors represent.

I thank the councillors for attending from all around the country and giving their time. We are making a commitment.

We will take on board the councillors' excellent suggestions and their lived experience. The councillors are on the ground and have done the work and brought it back to us. Most of us on this side of the House have also been councillors. We will insist and ensure that it happens. I urge the councillors to remember that they have their own powers within their own parties and political structures. I urge the councillors to use them.

Senator Frances Black

I always feel slightly intimidated speaking after Senator Boyhan because he is such a brilliant speaker. . I thank everyone for coming in and sharing their experiences and expertise with the committee . I agree with everything Senator Boyhan said regarding taking on board all of the suggestions. I hope with all my heart that something really positive comes out of this meeting today. I am an Independent Senator as well. I have been in here now since 2016 and I have seen many reports come out. It is the implementation of the reports that is absolutely vital. Reports are great but we need them to be implemented. I really hear what a lot of people have said today. There is no doubt that this is about local authority. This is about the heart of the community. Central government really needs to support, trust and leave the work in the hands of the councillor. It is scary the way local authorities and councillors are being undermined. There is no doubt but that it is very worrying and it seems to be getting worse, from my experience of being here and working on many of the issues Senator Boyhan spoke about.

There are a couple of things in the report that we need to highlight when it comes out. One is the relationship with council management and what that is like. If anyone would like to say a bit more around that it would be welcome. Does that relationship enhance the work or impact the work in a negative way? I would like to hear more about that. We have heard a lot said about the abolition of town councils and it was spoken about this morning. I think it is vital to put that into the report. I believe we need to bring back town councils. I have no doubt about it.

I thank everyone most sincerely and I want the councillors to know that we are very dedicated to this. The Seanad Public Consultation Committee is being headed up by Senator Mark Daly and Senator Shane Cassells was the member who instigated this. We are very passionate about this and the work the councillors do. We know how difficult it is and I do not mean to be blowing air or anything like that. We are very aware of the amazing work the councillors do on the ground. I have seen it myself at first hand and I mean this when I say, it is a vocation. I will finish on this point. Implementation is absolutely vital.

Senator Mark Wall

I thank everyone who has made contributions today. Councillor Gearóid Murphy started off by mentioning the issue of privilege. My own local authority is talking about CCTV cameras and the recording of council meetings, which will bring a new level to this. There has to be a discussion about privilege and it is something this report has to do. Senators Black and Boyhan are right in that we have a chance here to put together a report that will make a difference, rather than being a report that will stay on a shelf somewhere. That cannot be allowed to happen. We have been here before. I was a councillor for 11 years and I have heard all of these reports and talks about what is going to happen and all that. I am now on this side of the desk and I have an opportunity to try to do something about this. That is why I wanted to be a member of this committee because I believe it can make a difference. It is of no use if we prepare a report that ends up on the shelf. That is key to what has been asked today and we have to deliver on it.

The issue of rates was raised. I was on that side as a councillor in trying to keep an office open as a councillor. It needs to happen as it cannot happen without it. Councillors need to have an office and need to have the support. A rates bill is not going to help any councillor keep his or her doors open. There is no doubt about that.

Regarding the abuse, let us be serious about it. I can say that I personally have experienced a lot of abuse, as have other people. I do not think we can just say that nothing can happen about it. I know some councillors have been all over the world in relation to trying to do something about it.. We have to take on board what was said today. It came out many times loud and clear in conversations today that many potential councillors will not go forward or councillors are leaving because of the abuse, then simply it has to happen. There are a number of Bills before us, we have to take it seriously and we have to work with it. I have been in this position and other councillors have mentioned the abuse today. It is a takeaway from here today that we actually need to do something about it. It cannot continue and it cannot stop people from going for local elections, because democracy is key to everything we have.

Councillor Máirín McGrath and others spoke about the JPC. Some of us did listen to what was said by the councillors in December. Unfortunately, as sometimes happens in a democracy, it was defeated. As Senator Boyhan said, we tried to bring it in again yesterday and unfortunately we were defeated again. I assure the councillors that we are listening in this regard. This needs to be brought home loud and clear to all parties. Promises were made by the Minister when she sat here that she will do something about it and we wait to see what the outcome will be of that promise.

Finally I am going back to Councillors Tom Fortune and Aoife Flynn Kennedy on the town teams. I cannot get over that. It is the one takeaway that I just cannot get over today. I will follow up on what Bray is proposing because that is not democracy. With the greatest respect, those people might be great community people but the councillors are the people who put their names on the ballot papers, as I said earlier. That is one takeaway we need to look at.

Senator Pat Casey

I thank everyone for their contributions. Having served as a councillor for 12 years, I know exactly where they are coming from. From my time since 2004, we have seen a significant erosion of powers. Councillors Gearóid Murphy, Seán O'Donovan and Michael Sheehan brought up the point about privilege and commercial rates. They are two very simple, easy wins we could take out of this. Privilege will become very important because in the democracy we live in today, councillors are very exposed. We have privilege in the Seanad but councillors do not have it in the council chamber. We ask councillors to make some quite serious decisions on occasion. That is one ask from today that we might be able to do something now rather than later.

I will spend a bit of time on the NPF and the OPR. I served on the housing committee in my last term here. Mr. Niall Cussen and I had a good few tête-à-têtes across the table when at that stage he was working for the Department. He was not yet in the Office of the Planning Regulator. We had huge arguments over the population; how they got at the figure they got and then how they were assigning it. In one of my interactions with him at one stage, I said to him, "Please don't tell me you're going to the Office of the Planning Regulator", and three months later he was appointed to the office. The problem was that we had somebody implementing his own plan that he brought through the Houses of the Oireachtas. I had a fundamental problem with that because it completely eroded the powers of the county councillors. One thing I loved was the county development plan. I really did. I used to love it, but we can do nothing now. What happened in Wicklow was quite frightening. If some of our councillors tried to do something, they were told that they could not do it, when in fact they could. They had every right to make amendments if they wanted to. However, they were bullied by the top table and threatened by being told that they were acting illegally. They were not, because eventually on the amendment stage, an amendment was shoved through and the Office of the Planning Regulator actually agreed with it. This is the same office that would not allow it in the first instance. That goes back to the issue of trying to provide legal and financial support for councillors. That is another quick win that perhaps we can work on separately while we are trying to do the overall thing.

I have had major issues with town teams. I did not agree with them from day one. The scheme should be scrapped immediately. It is just a disaster. We are giving private citizens access to funding for their pet projects in their towns and we as councillors get no recognition for them. Then we see that people are able to pick up the phone from a town team and get a director of services within a few seconds, and we as public representatives cannot even get a meeting with them. They were one of the worst things that was brought in. They were a kickback because they were getting rid of the town councils to create this new thing called town teams, the be all and end all. They are eroding democracy; that is exactly what they are doing.

I apologise to the Cathaoirleach; I ran over there. I thank everyone for coming in.

An Cathaoirleach

That is grand. There are a number of comments and questions from the Senator, so people may wish to indicate. Given we are supposed to finish at 4.30 p.m., it will be about three minutes apiece. Councillor Tom Fortune may begin.

Mr. Tom Fortune

I would like to come back on something Senator Wall said about the vote on the JPCs. Can anyone explain to me why they would not support what people were asking or were trying to get done on behalf of councillors? Why was that?

Senator Mark Wall

I cannot answer because I was on one side of the debate. Maybe colleagues who were on the other side of the fence can answer. We tabled amendments on that legislation but democracy being democracy they were defeated on the day.

Mr. Tom Fortune

Maybe Senator Casey will answer that question.

Senator Pat Casey

I will give it my best. We all know the Whip system. Some people are in a position where they can get out of the Whip system, but it is there. My party met a significant number of councils prior to Christmas. We met the IALG. We were asked to do something specifically by the IALG and we got a commitment from the Minister on the floor of the House when the Bill came before us in January that there would be direct consultation with the local authorities about the make-up of the new committee.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come in on that because there was a lot of toing and froing. One of the key parts of this is that there will be a statutory instrument the Minister will have to sign to formulate the make-up of those. While the primary legislation has gone through, the next part of it - we have discussed this with the Chair of the Joint Committee on Justice - is the statutory instrument, which will specify how many councillors will be on it, as well as the chair. That will not be signed before the joint committee sees it. We are hopeful that, while the battle is ongoing, it will continue. Normally those orders are signed and nobody sees them in advance, but the justice committee will have a look at the statutory instrument in advance and the consultation with the local authority association that the Minister undertook to take will also happen.

Mr. Michael Sheehan

When the re-establishment of town councils is being looked at, we always say we are trying to encourage more minorities, women and people from different backgrounds into local government. As somebody who served on a local authority for the bones of 15 years, all I needed was 200 votes and I was a poll-topper. To get on to a local authority now a candidate needs 1,400 votes. The bar is set far too high. Yesterday, a report came out on vacancy in town centre buildings. The town centre teams are going to do the devil and all. There is no difference between those teams and the urban district councils and that is not an accident. There is a correlation between the town centres with the highest proportion of empty buildings and the areas of the former urban district councils. There is, therefore, an economic rationale for the reintroduction of town councils. We lost 49 of them across the country. There were no staff lost. They were redeployed, so in efficiency terms it saved nothing.

There were people who were quite happy to serve on the urban district and town councils and that was their lot. They were happy enough to do that. When the town councils were abolished these people ran for the council but, as I said, where previously someone could be a poll-topper with 200 votes, in the local authority elections 200 votes means a candidate will be a kind of laughing stock. People's political lives and careers were stunted by a simple decision. There is a rationale there to encourage people from a foreign background who want to get involved in local politics but who will never get 1,700 or 1,800 votes. Women who have something to give but who are not going to be able to serve on the local authority will get 200 to 250 votes quite easily. I suggest we look at that. In the context of a county council it is very easy to have a municipal authority in the middle with additional powers or some level below that. It can be done. If the Seanad is serious about reforming local democracy to make it more reflective of the population - if it is 50% women and 50% men, which Wexford is - there is an opportunity to get people into local government who otherwise would never get into it. Those people will look at it and say it is a closed shop or an old network and they will never go into it.

Mr. Gearóid Murphy

I thank the members for their positive comments on my suggestion regarding privilege. I might expand a little and pick up on a point touched on by Senator Casey regarding the wider issue of personal legal liability of councillors for actions taken in our role as public representatives. In the last county development plan in Cork County Council it was, as I recall in any case, generally considered an open question whether we as councillors could be held personally legally liable in cases where we acted against the advice of the executive. Realistically, there is every chance this might never come to pass. However, the fact it was even considered an open question could certainly have an effect on councillors' freedom to act and their peace of mind in acting unfettered from other considerations, save their democratic mandate, in relation to the county development plan. This leads to another suggestion beside the privilege one, namely, that it should be made explicit in statute or, at a minimum, in ministerial guidelines that local authorities must indemnify all councillors for decisions we make while exercising our democratic mandates, whether or not those decisions are in line with what the executive is advising.

On town teams, there would appear to be major differences between different counties. For example, on Cork County Council they have not really been a factor since the end of the Covid lockdowns. I largely associated them with the Covid period so it is very interesting to hear the contributions from the Wicklow councillors.

I slightly disagree with something Councillor Whelan said about remote meetings. I certainly agree with the general sentiment that it is desirable for councillors to be physically present as often as we can. When it comes to full council meetings in the county hall, I almost always attend in person and make a point of doing so. It is very important. However, the extra flexibility the ability to attend remotely has provided is a major selling point in making the job more attractive to people with childcare commitments, for example. Those commitments were a major issue highlighted in the report by the National Women's Council of Ireland into achieving greater gender balance at local level. It should be left to local authorities, councillors in particular, to determine as a reserved function whether remote attendance is allowed for certain meetings, all meetings or a certain percentage of meetings.

Mr. John O'Donoghue

It is very evident listening to everybody else that we are all experiencing the same issues and a feeling of disconnect from the decision-making process. I thank the Oireachtas Members for their time. The responses have been excellent but, as they alluded to, those responses are only as good as the response they make to them. I realise there is also an onus on us. If the report sits on a shelf, as has been mentioned, this will have been a complete exercise in futility.

The whole situation around abuse of people in public service has come up, as well as the disconnect between public representatives and the decision-making process, be that a council executive or, as is sometimes the case, the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is a vacuum and I think it was Aristotle who said nature abhors a vacuum. If there is a space, something will rush in to fill that vacuum. When I think of some of the more contentious issues that have been raging over the last couple of months, there has been an awful lot of misinformation and disinformation out there around a wide range of topics. I am not referring to anything specifically. In the absence of true information, this gives people online free rein and a space to say what they like. I am aware of cases where stuff has been said about public representatives who then had to figure out how to respond because they have been so blindsided.

We feel a disconnect with the decision-making process and from the Oireachtas, to be quite honest, and we are often not told about things until after they happen. This is a huge problem. That would help with some of the abuse that takes place online and some of the idle and untrue chatter that can take place. It is important that the committee takes that point back as well. I thank the committee and Cathaoirleach for their time.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I call the next speaker, I welcome, from Belfast City Council, Councillor Séamas de Faoite. I thank him for coming. Listening to this debate, Mr. O'Donoghue previously spoke about more engagement with Northern Ireland on the issue of a united Ireland. Some of his colleagues were in before Christmas engaging on what is happening in Northern Ireland. I call Councillor Barbara-Anne Murphy.

Ms Barbara-Anne Murphy

I thank the Cathaoirleach. In Bunclody a number of years ago, before town teams became a thing that was set up, we had a town team. Bunclody never had a town council. It has a population of 2,000 people. The town team had the two most local councillors and people representing the local area. The other four councillors in the municipal district did not want to be on the Bunclody town team. That is not to say they did not want votes out of the Bunclody area but they did not want to be on its town team. Then, we come along and it was all set up formally for Enniscorthy. The Enniscorthy town team is allowed to have one representative out of our six and that representative is allowed to chair it. It is a privilege, is it not? It is not me. We had to fight to get the minutes of the town team as municipal district members. We are the ones who are elected and accountable who have to go before the people. The people on the town team are the ones making the huge decisions for our towns. It will impact all of us in the future.

This is something the Seanad Public Consultation Committee has an input into. I spoke about the lack of trust on the part of the Seanad and the national Government in councillors and our ability to do something. At this point, we have to trust that the committee will do something about what we have said and take this issue and move it on. That includes not just town teams but all of the different aspects we brought up, such as cyber safety.

One of the reasons women do not go forward for politics, for example, is that we do not feel safe. I was first elected in 2004. In 2006, I was having a late evening snooze before going to my niece's 21st birthday. Living in the middle of the countryside, we did not lock our doors at the time. We did not even close our doors on a summer evening. I woke up to find a man in my living room with a file in his hand, similar to the one I have here, which I took from Councillor McGrath. Being me, I stood up, walked straight against him, took the file from his hand and backward-walked him out the door. As I put him out, I said I was not going to talk to him. I shut the door and opened the file. It contained newspaper cuttings of me from the previous two years since I had been elected to the council. Granted, the man did not touch me or do anything to me but he frightened the living daylights out of me. That was before this kind of abuse came online. Even if he was not being threatening, I felt threatened to have someone coming into my home and approaching me where we are supposed to be at most safe. We must take that into consideration and I would like the committee to do so. I will trust it to do something about it.

Ms Máirín McGrath

An issue I want to highlight, which can be addressed, is the actions and approach of national politicians, Ministers in particular, towards local authorities. I see this most particularly in capital funding models. For example, in my area, the Cahir local electoral area, LEA, we receive funding under the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF. Councillors went through a rigorous process with council staff and engineers for the applications. We went through months of work. You would swear the local authority had nothing to do with it when the announcements came because it was the Minister or the Government TD or Senator who took all the credit for the work. It is extremely frustrating. I am in the south of County Tipperary and Councillor Morris is in the north. As much as I enjoy our council meetings and sitting beside him in the council chamber, Tipperary is too big. The amalgamation of the two Tipperary councils into Tipperary County Council has been a failure. I would love to see the return of north and south Tipperary county councils. Although I will miss Séamie, it is needed for the proper representation of our people.

To give an example of my municipal district, I am in the Cahir LEA but I am in a municipal district with Tipperary, Cahir and Cashel. That municipal district is bigger than the Carlow County Council area. That leads to the next question. When we have calls for capital funding from Departments to say every local authority can put forward two projects, how is that fair? There are three towns in my municipal district alone, not to mind the whole county, which is the same size as another local authority area in itself. It beggars belief. It is a big frustration. I appreciate the funding that does come but we should fund the councils to do what they want and stop being so controlling over what they can and would do with it.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Councillor Fitzgerald who is sitting in the same seats his father once upon a time sat in. History is repeating itself.

Mr. Breandán Fitzgerald

I thank the Cathaoirleach for that reminder. My father used to always say, "A seat is what you make it", which is very appropriate here. Whether you are in the council, the Dáil or the Seanad, what you do with the seat is what you do. I know that is fairly simplistic. I saw what Senator Daly did when he was Cathaoirleach of the Seanad and the level of input and momentum he brought back to the Seanad. For all of us here, it is an absolute privilege to be in a position in which people voted for us. I was given the opportunity in 2009 when our good friend, Councillor Breandán Mac Gearailt, retired from the council after many years of distinguished service. If I was to say that was an opportunity for me, as a candidate running for Fianna Fáil, people would probably not agree with me because the abuse that was heaped on us on the doorsteps in 2009 was unreal, although I suppose it was merited. I kept on going. I did not succeed. We had a three-seat electoral area at that stage. If we fast-forward to 2014, Corca Dhuibhne-Dingle local electoral area was changed from a three-seater to a nine-seater. It went all the way from Dunquin down to the Cathaoirleach's home town in Kenmare. It is a massive area. It does not merit local government. It was a Dáil seat, basically. If we fast-forward to 2019, the area became a three-seater again but it joined up with Castleisland, so now there is the municipal district of Castleisland-Corca Dhuibhne, with three elected in Corca Dhuibhne and four in Castleisland. There have been changes. Thankfully, in 2019, I got elected.

In this next election, I am faced with a decision because of Údarás na Gaeltachta, as has been discussed. We did not have a town council in Corca Dhuibhne but we had Údarás na Gaeltachta. They were directly elected people who held a seat on Údarás na Gaeltachta. That was abolished. Now, it is being talked about again that it will come back. We do not know if the elections will be on the same day as the local and European elections. There is talk that, because I am a councillor, I will prohibited from sitting on the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta. I think I can stand for election to it but I cannot sit on the board. If I am to serve the people I represent in Corca Dhuibhne, half of which is in the Gaeltacht and half outside it, you cannot take powers away from a county councillor, vest them in Údarás na Gaeltachta and leave me different from my councillor colleagues in Killarney. Whatever about the powers we do not have, I must have an equal say in what the council can do going forward.

To recall what my father said, a seat is what we make it. We are so privileged to be given the trust of the people we represent. It is a privilege I value and hold dearly. Abuse online or offline will not make me make my decision. It will be the people who elect me or not. They will make my decision for me. I look forward to that come 7 June. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

Not only was Mr. Fitzgerald's father a Senator but he was an actor of sorts. He was a stand-in for Robert Mitchum in the film "Ryan's Daughter". I call Councillor Whelan.

Mr. Michael Whelan

I thank the Chair.

To clarify in respect of what Councillor Murphy said, I have used the flexibility of joining a meeting remotely myself, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry to interrupt, but Mr. O'Callaghan has to make the train to Kerry. Believe it or not, he said he is going training. I do not think he is actually training himself-----

Mr. Michael Whelan

Something has to be done to beat Dublin.

Mr. Niall Botty O'Callaghan

Do not worry about Dublin because we will handle it. I forgot to say at the start that my relationship with the executive of Kerry County Council is amazing. They are great people. We must, though, always think about the councillors who are not getting along with the executive. Right now, we have a system whereby if you do not get on with the CEO, it will not be possible to get anything done. These are just the facts. We have set up the civil servants to run the country in the background. I would love to see the people in the Dáil and Seanad taking control back. They are elected. They stand for office and put their names forward. They call to our doors and we call to other people's doors. Well, everybody else calls to doors. I ask the members of the Dáil and Seanad to please take the power back and to have the civil servants answerable to them, rather than the civil servants being answerable to no one. There is stuff going on in this regard. When I see civil servants refusing to come to meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts and all these things, it just means the elected members have lost power. I ask the elected people, therefore, to take the power back, and this is not being extremist. If we are going to talk about town councils, do not just bring them back and change the name of what the boys in Wicklow are dealing with. Let us give them the autonomy and the power they had before; otherwise, do not bother doing it. I have been here now since 12.30 p.m. and we have got half a sandwich out of it. The best thing I can say in respect of this whole meeting today is that we now all realise Killarney is the best town in the world.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Callaghan for his contribution and Mr. Whelan for allowing him in. Hopefully, now, he will make the train.

Mr. Michael Whelan

I thank the Cathaoirleach. As I said, I have used the flexibility of joining meetings remotely myself, but it saddens me to hear that there are other councils where more people are joining meetings remotely than there are present in the chamber. That takes from the discussion and that every councillor will agree with that. There was a lot of talk about town councils and about perhaps not putting them back in the way they were before, and definitely not at the cost of the rural districts. As someone who comes from a village of 400 people, if these town councils were going to be put back into place, the rural aspect would have to be worked out. These areas would have to be protected as well. I thank all the committee members for the day. I hope the outcome of this endeavour does not sit on a shelf and that the committee will push things through and bring us back to where councillors used to be. If not, we will become irrelevant and things will start to happen. I mentioned South Dublin County Council, where there have been 20 co-options in five years. There has to be a problem. We must look at it and take it on.

Mr. Séamus Morris

Since 2014, for ten years, we have not changed one line of the budget. The most important thing councillors should be able to do is to set a budget, but we have not changed one line. The budget is put in front of us. I looked for pre-budget workshops. This is a very complicated process unless it is possible to get an accountant to come in and sit down with us. We used to have great craic on Nenagh town council doing the budgets. We used to have a few beers and glasses of wine in front of us, and we sat down and relaxed. The executive, however, used to always set a trap for us in respect of trying to find somewhere we could call our own. Budgets are supposed to belong to councillors. We have not changed one line in a budget in ten years. This is happening up and down the country because we do not have the expertise. Unless we have an accountant with us, it is not done.

My other point is that there are whole areas in every part of the country not being represented because of the size of municipal districts. I know for a fact there are parts of where I come from not represented. These areas did have enough of a population to elect people. It is necessary to get 1,200 or 1,300 votes to get elected. I ask the committee to bear this in mind when it goes and considers this matter. We are not representing everybody. We only represent some of the people, those who can get a huge number of votes - 1,100 or 1,200 votes. Other people, though, are unrepresented. The councils, therefore, are not working and democracy is not working.

We have a situation in County Tipperary where officials themselves are turning up for photographs of things happening in towns and villages and they are not even telling the councillors. People are asking me why I was not there and if I do not care about them, but we are seeing this in the newspapers at the same time as anyone else is. Additionally, a huge amount of stuff is being bought in towns and villages by CEOs and teams and all the rest of it. Councillors are not being told about it. We find out down the town that something has been bought.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Yes.

Mr. Séamus Morris

We will have destroyed local democracy, unless we take charge. Town councils are not the only thing that should be looked at in this context. There are other ways of going about this process. We could properly fund municipal districts. There is always an answer to something but we cannot keep producing reports. What I am saying is to stop doing reports. We need action or local democracy will be gone. It is as simple as that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Well said.

An Cathaoirleach

I call the rapporteur of the committee. I thank all the councillors for their contributions.

Senator Shane Cassells

We have been here since 10.30 a.m. and we have had the opportunity to listen to those who have framed policy and the lived experience of those who have implemented it. Mr. Breandán Fitzgerald was so right in saying a seat is what you make it. I recall when I was a councillor and I heard the same issues spoken of then as were raised today. We made things happen regardless, however, and every person here still makes things happen regardless of the constraints or otherwise. A seat is what you make it. I am glad the Cathaoirleach pointed out the seat that Mr. Fitzgerald is sitting in. It is my seat and the best one in the House, so he should not worry.

Many points were made today. I have noted them all, so I will not go back over each one. On the final point made by Mr. Morris, though, in respect of budgets and powers, it was mentioned that the last budget in Nenagh was for a sum of €3.2 million. I was a town councillor for 15 years, as well as a county councillor. One of the last budgets we had in Navan during my time was for more than €10 million. It all came from our own local rates and parking charges revenue. We had our own planning powers as well, so we were able to deliver on the ground. A finance official subsequently said to me that because the town council budget was so concise, it was possible for us to go through it line by line and to see where every item of expenditure went. If we look at a county council budget now, though, in County Meath, for example, this is now totals more than €100 million. It is not possible to disseminate it in the same way as a town council budget. It is right to say that the answer to this problem is to put the budgets at the municipal district level on the same old basis as used to happen at the level of the town councils. This would not be about reinventing the wheel but concerned with allocating these additional powers.

The purpose of today's meeting was to try to tease these issues out to enable us to see how we can, at least in an interim way, try to help and ensure the effectiveness referred to comes about.

As for things sitting on a shelf, the Cathaoirleach of the committee, Senator Mark Daly, and all the members here are adamant that the draft report will make sure that the main political parties and Independent groupings enshrine this as part of their manifestoes in order that we see results. We have engaged the help of the research team to go back over some of the areas that have been taken away from local government in order that we can encompass that aspect in the report as well.

The contributions by the witnesses in terms of both the written submissions ahead of this meeting and the debate today have been very helpful and insightful. I thank them for taking the time to come to the Chamber of Seanad Éireann to make that contribution.

An Cathaoirleach

I again thank all of the witnesses for being here, as well as the Seanad staff who are present, the ushers and all those involved in today's discussion. We will have one more session before the local elections. As has been pointed out, we will then have a draft report, which will be given to the secretaries general of the different parties and groupings, along with all the party leaders, from the Taoiseach all the way down through the different organisations that are registered as political parties and that have representation in Dáil Éireann. That is the discussion we will have with them. Our request of them is that while they may not take all of the suggestions the witnesses have made, they should include them in their party manifestoes, which will lead to a programme for Government that will dictate the next five years and longer. Our aim is not to write a report with recommendations. Our aim is to write a report with recommendations, with an action plan and with legislation underpinning how those recommendations would be made into law, and that they would be incorporated as part of the next programme for Government.

I thank my colleagues for their contributions and questions. In a massive twist, for once, we are finishing on time at exactly 4.30 p.m., as scheduled, which is in no small part due to all here. I thank everyone for that.

The select committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. sine die.