SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 2008

Vote 30 - Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Revised).

2008 Annual Output Statement.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Peter Kelly)

I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy John Cregan. I understand he has advised the Minister of the reason for his absence.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates for 2008, Vote 30 - Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, which has been referred to the select committee by Dáil Éireann on 21 February 2008. On behalf of the select committee I welcome Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, to the meeting. I also welcome the officials from the Department.

Members will be aware, that as part of the budgetary process reform initiated by the Minister for Finance in his budget speech in 2006, each Department must now publish an output statement for consideration by Oireachtas committees. In line with that reformed budgetary process, an output statement has been provided and has been circulated along with a briefing to the members. This is a very important initiative and is intended to facilitate better parliamentary involvement in the budget and Estimate processes.

The clerk to the committee has circulated a proposed timetable for today's meeting. It will allow opening statements from the Minister and Opposition spokespersons, and then an open discussion by way of a question and answer session. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed. We will now proceed to consideration of the Estimates. I call on the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to make his opening statement.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

Thank you, Chairman. I am happy to be here to engage in this process. I am pleased to introduce the 2008 Revised Estimates for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

The gross provision of more than €532 million represents an increase of 17% over last year's outturn. This significant increase in funding reflects the Government's support for the key areas under the remit of my Department.

Energy, communications and natural resources policies have critical contributions to make in the three core areas of supporting competitiveness, enhancing sustainable development and developing innovation. In addition, energy policy has a crucial role to play in dealing with the major global challenge of climate change.

Effective and efficient public delivery is fundamental and priority will be given to best use of resources by my Department, focusing on outputs, outcomes and the delivery of value for money. In this regard, I am pleased to present to the committee the Department's annual output statement, a copy of which each committee member has already received. This is the first time information is provided on performance against targets. Good progress was made in 2007 on delivering on the outputs set in last year's statement. The key output targets to be delivered on in 2008 can be found in part 4 of the statement.

As members will appreciate the output statement represents a major initiative in trying to match outputs and inputs to funding. My Department is engaged in an ongoing review of the format of the output statement and would welcome comments in that regard. The administrative budget set out for 2008 amounts to €33.780 million. Subheads A1 to A9 constitute the administrative budget which provides, among other matters, for the salaries and associated costs for the staff of the Department. It also covers the engagement of consultancy expertise, the ongoing implementation of the Department’s IT strategy, staff training and development and value for money and policy initiatives.

The reduction in the 2008 administrative budget provision, in comparison with the outturn for 2007, principally reflects the transfer of marine staff and functions to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with effect from 20 October 2007.

A total of €62 million is being provided in 2008 for communications and multimedia developments. A world class electronic communications sector is critical to our continued economic and social prosperity, and in this regard the provision of broadband services is a major priority for the Government. The latest market report from the communications regulator reported that there were 886,300 broadband subscribers at the end of 2007. This figure includes mobile broadband and corresponds to a penetration rate of 20.5 subscribers per 100 of population. The 20.5% penetration rate is spread across homes and businesses and covers more that 44% of homes in Ireland. These figures represent a 12% increase since quarter three of 2007 and a 71% increase on the same quarter in 2006. Ireland continues to be one of the fastest growing broadband markets in Europe and is the fastest growing country for penetration in the OECD.

Almost €54 million, under subhead B1 in 2008, is being provided for continued Government investment in open access broadband infrastructure on a nationwide basis and to ensure the provision of broadband services. It is expected that all networks currently under construction under phase II of the Metropolitan Area Networks, MANs, programme will be complete by the end of 2008. A decision on any future Government investment in broadband infrastructure, including MANs, will be made following consideration of the recommendations of a value for money and policy review of phase I of the MANs programme and the final recommendations of my Department’s next generation broadband policy paper.

In May of last year the national broadband scheme procurement process commenced. This scheme will provide broadband services to the areas of Ireland that are currently not served. I expect the tender process to be concluded and the preferred tenderer to be selected by the end of July 2008, with services being rolled out as quickly as possible thereafter. My Department has recently received notice of judicial review proceedings regarding certain elements of the NBS mapping process. These proceedings are currently before the Commercial Court and due for hearing on 10 June 2008. A speedy conclusion of the matter has been requested to advance the NBS as quickly as possible.

An amount of €5 million is provided under subhead B2 towards the operating costs of the National Digital Research Centre. A further €2.22 million under subhead B2 is provided for the work of the Digital Hub Development Agency. The agency continues to attract enterprise, with a current cluster of 85 companies now employing more than 750 people.

Subhead B3 represents my Department’s allocation from the dormant accounts fund under the RAPID programme. An amount of €1.15 million is provided for projects that will assist disadvantaged young people to exploit information and communications technology opportunities.

Subheads C1 to C6, provide more than €277 million in respect of the broadcasting sector in 2008. It is estimated that broadcasting licence fee revenue of more than €232 million under subhead H4 will provide for grant-in-aid of €208 million to RTE under subhead C1, licence collection costs of €12.7 million under subhead C2 and a contribution of more than €10.9 million to the broadcasting fund under subhead C5.

TG4 was established as an independent statutory body on 1 April 2007 and I am particularly pleased to have secured a further increase in funding this year for TG4. The provision of €36.58 million under subhead C4 will allow TG4 to further strengthen its Irish language schedules and reduce its repeat ratio.

Grant-in-aid of €6.4 million is provided under subhead C3, to enable the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, BCI, to carry out its regulatory and licensing functions in the independent television and radio sector. The BCI also administers the broadcasting funding scheme under subhead C5 which provides grants for new television and radio programmes in the areas of Irish culture, heritage and experience and adult literacy. It is envisaged that €10.997 million will be paid into the fund in 2008.

My Department has implemented a digital terrestrial television pilot project which is being used by stakeholders to test the service in Ireland and to develop momentum in this regard. The pilot began in August 2006 and is expected to run until August 2008. The estimate for digital terrestrial television costs in 2008 is €2 million under subhead C6, which covers the operation and monitoring of the DTT service.

More than €86 million is provided in the Estimate for the energy sector in 2008. Action is under way across all the key deliverables with a range of initiatives already launched to accelerate delivery of renewable energy targets, energy efficiency, distributed generation and demand side management, including the national smart meters programme. The review of the all-island energy market development framework is under way with Northern Ireland colleagues, following the successful launch of the single electricity market in November 2007.

More than €72 million under subheads D1 and D4 is being provided to support the implementation of energy conservation programmes and to promote alternative energy sources. This contrasts with the outturn for 2007 of just over €59 million. The major spending areas are on greener homes at €27 million and on the house of tomorrow at €12 million. Funding of €5 million will allow SEI to conduct a pilot home energy saving scheme to provide capital grants and other supports to householders wishing to invest in improving the energy efficiency of their homes through improved insulation and so on, in line with the commitment in the programme for Government. An allocation of €2.5 million will enable SEI to expand its energy advice services to industry and in particular provide energy advice to SMEs. Funding of €1 million will allow the development of a new passive housing programme to encourage developers to adopt passive housing standards in residential developments.

As part of the national energy efficiency campaign launched by the Government in 2006, €2.5 million under subhead F4 will fund the costs of the Power of One campaign. The overriding objective of that campaign is to achieve real and measurable change in consumer awareness and behaviour regarding energy efficiency. The aim is to more than double the contribution from renewable energy to 15% of the electricity market by 2010, which is up from less than 7% in 2005. We hope to more than double that contribution again to 33% in the following ten years to 2020. The targets for renewable heating will be realised through programmes such as reheat, costing €2 million, combined heat and power at €4 million and the greener homes scheme at €27 million. These programmes provide grants for the installation of renewable heat technology across a wide range of sectors.

We have also introduced dedicated programmes for wave and tidal energy conversion. Sustainable Energy Ireland also operates a research and development fund for suitable energy technologies. There is also a programme beginning this year to install smart meters in all domestic dwellings. These measures will ensure we can maintain growth in renewable energy deployment in the period between 2010 and 2020.

The commitment to building energy research capacity has been reflected in the provision of more than €13 million under subhead D3 in 2008 for national energy RTDI programmes. It is a key priority for the Government to accelerate research and development into renewable energy technologies, notably ocean energy, to realise Ireland’s undoubted potential and to deliver on the national targets for renewable energy. On 15 January 2008, a major programme of activities, grants and supports was announced to develop ocean energy in Ireland, with significant targeted funding to go to the sector over the next three years.

The key challenge in the natural resources area is to manage our river, mineral, hydrocarbon and other geological resources in a sustainable and productive manner. The Department must ensure that resources are managed and developed appropriately, to maximise the benefits to Ireland from exploration and production of our indigenous oil and gas resources, while ensuring that activities are conducted safely and with due regard to their impact on the environment. This year the industry will drill at least four exploration wells offshore with the possibility of a further two to three exploration wells. Drilling four wells would attain a level achieved only twice in the past 20 years, and shows an active and committed level of interest by the industry.

Subhead E2, together with the associated carryover from 2007, provides funding of more than €7 million in 2007 in respect of mining services in 2008, of which €4.4 million is ring fenced for rehabilitation works at Silvermines in County Tipperary. The provision of €1.7 million under subhead E4 will fund a range of multi-annual initiatives in the geoscience field, which includes the Griffith research awards. The main priorities of the geoscience initiatives include supporting the sustainable development of Ireland’s natural resources along with the provision of reliable geoscience support for environmental protection and effective spatial planning.

Subhead E5 provides €4 million in 2008 for INFOMAR, the successor to the Irish national seabed survey. INFOMAR is designed to map Ireland’s shallow inshore waters, thereby completing the process initiated under the Irish national seabed survey, which mapped Ireland’s offshore areas.

Subhead E6 provides for the payment of grant-in-aid to Ordnance Survey Ireland, which came under the aegis of my Department last January. As it is the national mapping agency, many aspects of OSI's activities are undertaken in the public interest, and the Exchequer's subvention is designed to bridge the gap between the level of income from its commercial operations and that of its expenditure.

Subhead F1 provides more than €35 million in 2008 for the management of the inland fisheries resource. This includes more than €31 million for the operations and activities of the Central Fisheries Board and regional fisheries boards, and it includes additional resources allocated to salmon management initiatives. Some €4.5 million is provided as our 50% contribution to the operation costs of the Loughs Agency. There is need for change in the structures operated in the oversight of the inland fisheries sector and a move towards a more effective, accountable and transparent management system to allow the sector to reach its full potential. I am committed to the restructuring of the sector, and I recognise there will be significant challenges in bringing it about.

The Government remains committed to the conservation imperative and halting the decline in salmon stocks. We will continue to build on the success of the measures introduced in 2007 for the continued protection of wild salmon stock. The €25 million salmon hardship scheme directed at commercial salmon fishing licence holders has now closed to applicants. More than 1,000 applicants, including 127 in the Foyle area, have claimed payments under the scheme, ranging in value from under €1,200 up to €190,000. Added to this, the €5 million community support scheme launched in March 2008 is designed to assist the development of additional economic opportunities for the labour force previously employed in the ancillary sectors of the commercial salmon industry. An amount of €16 million has been provided under subhead F2 for payments under these two schemes in 2008.

Almost €1 million is provided under subhead G1 to fund other organisational initiatives. Some €250,000 under subhead G2 will support projects in the Department's non-commercial State agencies, to assist in their efforts to implement the strategic change and modernisation agenda.

The Estimate allocations in 2008 are clearly focused on my Department's key policy priorities. These policies will be delivered through sectoral programmes that support the key underlying objectives of increased competitiveness, sustainable development and fostering innovation. I hope the annual output statement will contribute to the committee's deliberations on the Estimates and give members a better overview of the complex and diverse range of activities carried out by my Department. I commend the vote to the committee.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister and invite Deputy Simon Coveney to make his opening statement.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I thank the Vice Chairman and welcome the Minister. To take him up on his last comment - his is a huge Department dealing with a broad range of areas. I understand we will be able to go through the Estimates sector by sector, which is when I will raise individual questions, concerns and comments. I will try to keep my overall commentary brief.

I welcome the idea of an annual output statement. That is progress towards more accountability in matching up what was promised and what was spent. That statement will be useful.

Vice Chairman, is it appropriate for me to ask specific questions at this stage, or should it be just general comments so that we can then get on with the specifics?

Vice Chairman

We hoped the Deputy would make a general comment, and then we will go through the Estimates piecemeal.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I do not want to take up time now by asking specific questions on, for example, judicial review of the national broadband scheme or other things that have been raised in the Minister's presentation. I would rather wait until we reach those issues and are voting on them.

Vice Chairman

We will take everything under the subheads, and the Minister will answer as we go from one subhead to another.

Deputy Simon Coveney

My only other comment is that I am not sure whether Members will be under pressure to show their faces in the Dáil this morning.

Vice Chairman

We are always under pressure to show our faces in the Dáil.

Deputy Simon Coveney

This morning, in particular. I do not know about Deputies in other parties, but we have been asked to be there. I would be interested to hear how the Chair plans to manage that.

Chairman

We will manage by doing whatever the members want. That is how this meeting will be run. It is up to the members. However, I suggest that we take the subheads one at a time and the Minister will answer in regard to each. We have already agreed the timetable.

Deputy Simon Coveney

My suggestion is to move on to the subheads as soon as we can. I welcome the Minister's attendance here and will reserve my comments until a few minutes' time.

Deputy Liz McManus

I understand there are pressures and I am quite happy to move on to the subheads. However, I have a general point that concerns me regarding how the budget is presented to us. It can only be described as massaging the figures if one compares the commitment for this year with the out-turn of last year rather than the commitment of last year. If a Department does not spend the money allocated, it cannot claim there has been a significant percentage increase because it gets more money this year. All it can claim is that it did not spend the money it got last year. That is something on which we need to be clear. It is very easy for a Minister to claim there has been a significant increase even over inflation. However, the figures tell quite a different story.

We on the Opposition benches do not have the resources the Minister has. At the very least we should have plain, clear, honest figures. In the gross voted expenditure last year the figure was €512 million. This year it is €534 million but the outturn from last year was only €456 million. That means the figures this year look great. The question is why the money was not spent last year. Also, and I do not recall this happening before, there is a carry-over from 2007. In the bad old days money that was not spent had to be returned to the Department of Finance, which was not in any way advisable. It seems the carry-over from 2007 was quite significant. I would like to know exactly how much it was. If it is the case that this money was simply rolled over into this year, it seems we may be getting less this year than last year, allowing for the fact that money was transferred from 2007 to 2008.

The budget we have is not huge compared to that of many other Departments, even though there is a very diverse range of activities for which the Minister is responsible. That leads to relatively small amounts being spent all over the place. The reality is that the public is paying the bill, for example, for energy costs. There are big questions. When the ESB announces a €22 billion framework programme, who pays? It is clear it is members of the public paying bills who must carry the burden.

When looking at these figures we need to be accurate. I have many individual questions, but I would certainly like to have clarification regarding page 10 on the total budget for the Department, which is very simple information, but it seems quite misleading.

Vice Chairman

Go raibh maith agat. We will now proceed to a general discussion and question and answer session.

Deputy Liz McManus

I asked a specific question. I would be grateful if it were possible to have it answered, rather than having it lost. We are now going on to deal with subheads.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am quite happy to address those broader points.

Vice Chairman

I will allow that.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

First, in terms of budget 2007 and 2008, it must be remembered that the total figures originally budgeted for included a Department with responsibility for the marine. When that is excluded it accounts for the differences between 2007 and 2008 in terms of the outturn compared to what was budgeted. It is not that the Department did not spend its budget but that the marine section was taken out that accounts for the output being different from the original budget. On a like for like basis, the Department's expenditure increased by 27% from 2007 to 2008. That figure relates to the areas of responsibility of this Department but it excludes RTE, whose figure is separate and slightly distorting as it goes through the Department rather than affecting its budget. The Deputy is correct to say there was a reallocation in 2007 but it was within the Department's own category areas.

Deputy Liz McManus

How much is the carryover?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will come to that. Given the budgetary constraints that are beginning to come in, the increase of 27% was a very successful outcome of our budgetary negotiation process. The carry-over is in respect of capital funds and is something to be encouraged. We want to have a carry-over because it leads to more flexibility. Recognising the reality of the world, one must plan one's capital on a multiannual basis. It is therefore not a problem.

Deputy Liz McManus

I am asking how much it was.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It amounted to €4 million.

Deputy Liz McManus

It is very small.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is quite small and less than in previous years. The Department's main role is to leverage investment elsewhere so it is working with the ESB to secure the €22 billion package of investment. Detailed costings were carried out on the package over a period of nine months to ensure it made absolute economic sense. The funding will primarily be raised through lending by the company. It is not an additional cost to the customer because the alternative, a reliance on fossil fuels, is more costly. If we continue to be dependent on fossil fuels we will put the Irish public at risk of significantly increased energy costs. Constant attention has been paid to the investment of €22 billion and it has been called a massive cost but people are not considering the cost of the alternative, in which the changes are not made. The commitment on the part of the ESB to make the investment has been one of the most significant developments of the past year. Detailed financial work lies behind the decision - it was not done on the back of an envelope. It shows a saving rather than a cost to the public.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Is the Minister suggesting the cost of the financial work carried out by the ESB was paid for by the Department?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No. However, we worked in conjunction with the ESB in the development of the report.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Was some of cost of the preparatory work for the ESB plan - which is very welcome - taken by the Department?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No. The Department's existing resources, in the form of the expertise of its staff, were put to the use of the project in conjunction with the ESB.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Will other energy companies get the benefit of the Department's expertise?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

One output we sought was to be able to work on the corporate strategies of a range of energy companies, such as Bord na Móna, Bord Gáis and the ESB. Part of our job is to represent the shareholder and, working with the boards and management of those companies, to present shareholder views on where each of them needs to go.

Vice Chairman

I suggest we proceed, in order, through the Estimates. We will try to avoid jumping from one subhead to another so that we can deal with them in a more flexible, clear, precise and structured way. I will invite questions on each subhead and the Minister will reply at the end. We will start with the administrative budget.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I understand subhead A1, which deals with salaries wages and allowances, involves a complex calculation because there has been dramatic change in staffing numbers in the Department, the 137 staff in the section responsible for the marine having moved to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. When does the Minister envisage the staff numbers will fall to the authorised complement of 300, necessitating that another 17 staff leave? We are nearly half way through the year but where will the staff cuts - if such they can be called - be made? Why are there a further 17 staff added to the planned figure?

There are many references throughout the document to costs associated with decentralisation. At some stage the Minister could give us a figure for the total cost of the decentralisation programme to the Department across a range of areas, be it travel, staffing, the purchase of buildings and so on. This is the first sector affected by it.

My third question on staffing relates to benchmarking and performance targets. I understand the Minister for Finance asked each Department to undertake a value for money audit by the end of March. Has the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources done this? What measurable performance improvements supposedly linked to benchmarking payments have actually been made since Deputy Ryan became Minister?

Must we deal with all subheads now, or just with subhead A1?

Vice Chairman

I had hoped the Deputy would deal with subheads A1 to A9. We could take them together and then move on to subheads B1 to B3 and C1 to C6.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I will speak for much longer if that is the case. My understanding was that we would take each subhead one after the other in order that we could each ask specific questions.

Vice Chairman

We agreed a timetable.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I will ask about office premises expenses, in particular the cost of powering the Department. I have asked the Minister several times whether we have tried to increase the use of renewable energy power sources, specifically regarding the contracts signed by the Department each year for energy provision. What percentage of the heat and light comes from renewable energy power sources? Surely we should be leading by example. What energy efficiency programmes have been implemented to reduce the heating and lighting bills and power output within the Department? It needs to lead by example.

There is confusion as to who is giving advice to the Department on next generation broadband under the section on consultancy services for communications and broadcasting, at a cost of over €500,000. Is it the international forum which was set up in February and is due to report in a number of weeks, or is it the Government's advisory forum which has not met for nearly one year, even though its sub-committees have? Will the Minister give us a breakdown on who the Department is paying for advice on next generation broadband?

We were supposed to see a Bill by now on the transfer of ownership of the transmission assets from the ESB to EirGrid. We have now been told that there is no date for its publication, not to mind its implementation. Are we still spending the same amount of money on consultancy fees for that Government policy which is on ice?

The Minister said there was a lower spend than expected in the Department in 2007 because it was up to date with its value for money policy reviews. What does that mean, and what changes have been implemented as a result of those reviews, which were up to date last year and on which we did not need to spend any money? The Minister said we were up to date on that issue by the end of 2007, so what work is needed in 2008?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Will I take those questions now?

Vice Chairman

No. We will take all the questions together.

Deputy Liz McManus

Much has been said already, but I would like clarification on the Department's decentralisation programme. I am not clear what exactly is planned and what the time frame is. As the marine staff and function have moved out of the Department, I would have thought the office premises expenses would decrease, but they have gone up slightly, as shown on page 17. Will the Minister explain why there has been little change?

On energy savings, I understood from the Minister that he was making a genuine effort and had an audit done on the building to see what energy savings could be made. Will he explain what changes of significance will occur in making the building more efficient?

The Minister has tended to opt for the report, study or consensus route when, at times, a decision has been needed. One commitment that was considered a priority in a briefing that we received was the break-up of the ESB. A convoluted structure is now being established, which essentially puts any decision on the long finger. I ask that the Minister make the decision this year not to break up the ESB. Even at European Union level, the steam has gone out of the argument for such a policy, and we should move on. When will the transmission lines study, which is mentioned in this section, be published?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will take the questions in order, and if I miss anything I will come back to it.

On staff complement, with the transfer out of the Department of the marine function, our staff numbers have reduced by roughly a third. We aim to reach our target figure of 300 staff by the end of the year. There are difficulties around that, which were exacerbated by the decentralisation process. There are complicated rules and procedures on how staff are allocated in the overall system. For example, when someone joins, we sometimes need cover in a particular area while he or she gains experience. That can add to the difficulties in making changes. However, we aim to meet our target by the end of the year.

Deputy Coveney mentioned the cost of decentralisation, which is related to that issue. The primary cost is capital, with the new build in Cavan. That is primarily an issue for the Office of Public Works and its managing of capital expenditure on buildings. To date, the functions in Cavan are primarily on corporate services, so I do not predict a major increase in travel or other expenses. The nature of that function is that it can be done primarily from the office.

I can give some background on office expenses and the reason the 2007-08 figures are roughly stable rather than showing a significant reduction. There has been a significant increase in certain costs, such as security and maintenance, but we are looking to reduce the costs. As well as the reduction in capital costs from decentralisation, we aim to vacate the Leeson Lane offices in June. It is a significantly older office block. It is proposed to consolidate the Department's activities in Dublin in two offices, the one on Adelaide Road and the one in Beggar's Bush where the Geological Survey of Ireland is located. We currently carry the cost of the office in Leeson Lane. The budget would not have fully accounted for the reduction from vacating it because it had not been agreed by the time the budget was introduced last year. The Department hopes to make significant cost savings from concentrating the offices in Adelaide Road, in particular, and on the Beggar's Bush site. That should bring certain efficiencies.

Turning to the issue of heat, light and fuel, as the Department responsible for energy matters, we have an obligation to try to raise the bar in what we do. Let me outline the background. The building the Department has on Adelaide Road is not owned by the Government. It has a leasing arrangement. However, that does not preclude it from implementing a number of measures to improve the energy efficiency of the building. On coming into office last July we brought in the OPW to see what extensive range of work we could do on the building to improve its energy efficiency. That work commenced in January.

On the energy management side, we have seen significant changes to the heating and gas systems. We have changed our electricity and heating contracts to renewable energy suppliers. The OPW has carried out the analysis of the building and made a series of recommendations for improving it. We have already changed the lighting and installed a number of time and measurement control systems. We are moving to install renewable heating and other energy saving systems into the building. Even though we do not own the building, we can do this, given that we have a long-term lease. We are looking at a target reduction of roughly 25% in our energy requirements and emissions this year as a result, although the budget outcome may vary because energy prices are increasing. As a first step, we are hoping for a reduction of approximately 20% in energy use and a commensurate reduction in the budget outturn.

In terms of another much broader analysis, the Minister for Finance signalled at budget time that he would ask all Departments to undertake a very extensive efficiency review of their operations to be presented in March. I am glad to say my Department has done this. While we are awaiting further communication with the Department of Finance, I am confident it will be seen as one of the better, if not the best, examples among Departments. I am certainly hoping for this.

In responding to changing economic and public finance conditions the Department must be aware of the economic climate. In our efficiency review we did some detailed work on making cutbacks where we could to reflect the changing conditions in the public finances to make sure we could still direct money to the public services we wanted to deliver. On benchmarking, we have made a submission and received a clean bill of health from the Department of Finance regarding how we have implemented it.

Regarding consultancy services, there is one general point I want to make. It is that the Department is very small in numerical terms. When compared with a number of agencies across the State, the number of staff involved is very tight. It is a policy Department and, while our numbers are small, we deal with large issues of important economic and social consequence. We deal with very large agencies. The numbers in the Department are small but when one takes into account the agencies and other State bodies with which we work, the sector is very large. It is, therefore, appropriate and right for the Department to use consultancy services, where necessary, and to ensure we have the necessary policy tools and policy advice to hand.

On the question of consultative services in connection with next generation broadband, an analysis is being carried out internally in the Department with the assistance of ComReg, a useful touchstone for us. Deputy Coveney asked whether the national or the international advisory forum was our main source of advice. The latter was the main check on the development of the next generation broadband paper. I hope to publish the paper in a number of weeks and proceed to an open consultative forum in which we can hold an extensive debate with the telecommunications and computing industries, large users and individuals, and private and public citizens on this fast evolving area. We engage a number of consultants in the telecommunications area, where there is an ongoing need for extensive consultancy, particularly on the national broadband scheme and other schemes where complex legal issues have to be resolved. I am quite satisfied the consultancy service is well used.

I will address Deputy McManus's question about consultancy services relating to transmission assets legislation and the ESB decision. The Government White Paper always intended to provide for consultation over how the process was to be managed. It was always intended to engage with stakeholders on how to progress, as such a policy makes sense. That is what we are doing and if it takes slightly longer than we intended when we produced our output statements, then so be it. However, it is the right thing to do. A broad analysis of what action we need to take in regard to the electricity sector transmission asset base, which has a value of between €1 billion and €1.5 billion, must take into account the context of much wider asset development. We will put a similar amount into smart metering and significant development is required for the distribution networks, for which €11 billion is set out in the ESB's corporate strategy. We need to make other investments, such as in east-west interconnection and elsewhere, so I do not apologise for taking time to engage in consultation as we go through the process.

I also believe the appointment of consultants, in this case Ecofys, to engage in a transmission line study was appropriate. Members of this committee argued for such an approach and it was clear we needed background analysis on the implications of sending power lines overground or underground. It is right to turn to independent, internationally-recognised consultants to provide as much background analysis as possible. It was a good example of a consultancy project being used effectively. The timetable has been longer than we expected but we expect the report to come through at the end of May or early June. If it takes slightly longer we should be willing to give it the necessary time because it is a hugely important issue.

The value for money analysis is, in a sense, an internal consultancy check. Three such main studies have been carried out by the Department. The first was on the sustainable energy priority of the economic and social infrastructure operational programme, which was published in July 2006. Ten recommendations were made by the report and all were accepted and are now in the process of being implemented. A value for money report on the group broadband scheme was published in November 2007 but its recommendations were not applicable because of the closure of the scheme.

The third and largest of the three concerned investment in the metropolitan area networks. Our intention is to publish that report at the same time as we publish the report on the next generation broadband scheme and to act on its main recommendations. It is, in a sense, already completed. If there is a budgetary underspend it is because the work on the three value for money reports, which are an internal budgetary check, has been completed ahead of schedule.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Benchmarking.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

My understanding is that we made our presentation to the benchmark verification group and it has been accepted.

Deputy Liz McManus

As there is now an overshoot on the transmission lines study, can the Minister guarantee to us that it will be published well before the Dáil rises for the summer?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Liz McManus

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The Dáil rises in July; I do not see any reason, in any circumstances, it would be later.

Vice Chairman

We will now take questions on subheads B1 to B3.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The figures at the start of this section show an outturn for 2007 of €37,954,000. Last year €10 million was taken out of the broadband budget and given to the greener homes scheme because there had been an overshoot in that scheme. We have been through that debate on more than one occasion. If all of the money allocated last year for information and communications technology had been spent, rather than some of it being transferred to energy projects, would the €37 million have been €47 million? Is that an example of the fact that, as Deputy McManus has pointed out, when we look at the outturn figures compared with what was budgeted for last year, we see that the figures are somewhat skewed? If the figure had been €47 million, this year's figure of €53 million would not have represented much of an increase. When the Government reallocated €10 million away from what was described as a broadband budget to the greener homes scheme, it was made clear that the money would be made up the next year when it was needed. The situation needs some explanation to give us clarity on what is happening.

What delay is envisaged in the national broadband scheme as a result of the judicial review and will there be a cost implication as a result?

I accept the Minister's rationale that his Department is policy-driven and therefore needs outside experts to give independent opinion. Consultants are needed and the Department needs to spend money on them. However, this section includes a consultancy figure of more than €3 million. Is there an overlap between that figure and the staffing consultancy figure about which we have just spoken? Why is that €3 million consultancy figure not included in the staffing figure? I do not understand the difference and there is no explanation of what the €3 million refers to.

On the Digital Hub Development Agency and the National Digital Research Centre, has there been a value for money audit of that project and the money that we have spent and are continuing to spend on it? The budget for the Digital Hub Development Agency increases again in this year's Estimate. We have done a value for money audit of the MANs, as they have cost the State a lot of money. Therefore, what is the Minister's thinking on the Digital Hub Development Agency? There are concerns that we are continuing to pump money into it. It has huge potential, but we need to be sure we are getting value for money.

All I would say about the RAPID programme is that it is welcome. I am glad the Government is driving money into disadvantaged areas and introducing IT.

Deputy Liz McManus

I have a couple of questions on these subheads. In regard to broadband for schools, the most recent report by the European Union shows that Ireland has performed very badly, coming 19th out of 27 countries. Is the Minister not extremely concerned that we are in the doldrums when it comes to ensuring universal access to broadband for schoolchildren?

There is no figure for medical practices. They are private contractors, but it must surely be a matter of concern that medical practices are so far behind in broadband connectivity. According to an EU survey, approximately 45% of medical practices in Ireland have broadband connectivity compared to some other countries in the European Union where 90% have such connectivity. We have many problems in the health service. I know they are not the Minister's problems, although he is a member of the Cabinet. However, I would have thought the use of broadband and the Internet would be of vital importance in ensuring a better quality and more efficient primary care service. Is any effort being made to facilitate this development?

Another question that has arisen from time to time concerns the proposal for a national broadband scheme targeting areas that do not have broadband. The Minister states all reasonable requests for broadband from housing premises in rural areas will be met. Will he clarify how a reasonable request will be defined? I represent a large rural area. One could not describe the people I meet as unreasonable because they want to work from home and have a job that enables them to do so, to have a decent family life and not have to commute to Dublin. However, the Department or the national broadband scheme may be of the view that if somebody chooses to live outside Tinahely or somewhere else it is his or her hard luck. There is a caveat which is disturbing. Therefore, it is necessary to define what is meant by "all reasonable requests". I would be grateful if the Minister would do so.

Who will ensure quality broadband provision where it is already provided? I hear continual complaints in certain urban areas where broadband is provided regarding service and the intermittent nature of access. These are problems the Minister does not deal with because he has a wonderful map which shows that these areas are covered by broadband and so he believes he does not have to worry about them. However, for the person who cannot access broadband, who must wait weeks to get a connection, it is extremely frustrating. Perhaps the Minister would clarify who is responsible for dealing with this matter.

I asked a question of the Minister in regard to access to broadband for old age pensioners. Responsibility was transferred to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which was unable to tell me anything. Perhaps the Minister would comment on the matter.

The national broadband scheme is due to start in June. How long is the roll-out likely to take?

Deputy Joe McHugh

Forty projects have been identified in the context of funding for IT training programmes for disadvantaged youth. This involves a substantial amount of money totalling €1.1 million. Is there any scope for additional funding for other applicants in 2008?

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I would like to ask the Minister a couple of simple questions. One relates to metropolitan area networks, MANS, installed in a number of provincial towns at considerable cost to the local authority and not installed in a number of others. Networks are installed in many towns such as Roscrea, Nenagh and Templemore in my own area of north Tipperary. When will we have a connection to the outside world? The networks are in the ground but that is as far as they have got. What will be the cost to the local authority?

There is a budget of €1.4 billion for ducting in counties Galway and Mayo. What does this involve? Is it the Department's policy to provide for ducting in some parts of the country but not others?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Deputy Coveney mentioned that statements in tribute to the Taoiseach were to start in the Dáil at 10.45 a.m. Could we suspend for half an hour to attend? I have received a note from the Chief Whip asking if it is possible. I am happy to extend the meeting if members wish.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am happy to do so. I have also been asked to attend by my party leader.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We can conclude this section in ten minutes and extend the meeting, if necessary.

Vice Chairman

We will suspend at 10.45 a.m. At what time will we return?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

At 11.30 a.m.

Deputy Liz McManus

We cannot have everybody walking out when Deputy Gilmore is speaking.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

He is due to speak at 10.55 a.m.

Vice Chairman

Perhaps Deputy McManus will speak in his stead.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Deputy Coveney asked about the outturn of €37 million in 2007 as against the projected figure of €47 million. Effectively, it represents the €10 million diverted from the MANs scheme to the greener homes scheme. We made a decision that diverting the money was a better way to manage our resources and we proceeded with the deferred contracts in the first quarter of this year. We asked ourselves whether we could manage the contracts - multiannual capital projects - by deferring them from 2007 to 2008 and decided that we could. It did not have a huge effect on service delivery but not to have delivered the greener homes and house of tomorrow schemes which were demand-led would have had a very significant effect. I made the decision and I am satisfied it was the correct one. We were also considering issues related to the development of MANs such as backhaul connectivity and last mile drop connections.

I am restricted in what I can say about the national broadband scheme because the matter is sub judice. There is an application before the court and the judge will consider the issue of a judicial review on 10 June. On the timetable, our plans are to issue an invitation to tender on 28 April. Once an invitation to tender document has been issued one cannot change it. Therefore, we will take into account any proceedings and the risk they pose to an invitation to tender before any judicial review is undertaken. If there is a delay because of a judicial review, we will do everything possible to make up the time lost. My intention is to proceed as soon as possible and I am confident we will be able to do so, subject to the said review.

The fees of €3 million for consultancy services relate primarily to project management consultancy work. Detailed consultancy advice is needed when developing MANs on such matters as route options and management. The consultancy services in question involve more detailed project management delivery.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Some €3 million was spent on project management.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

A significant portion of that sum was for consultancy work on the national broadband scheme, including legal services. The intention is that the Digital Hub Development Agency will move towards being a self-financing agency. One slight disappointment in the year was that the planning applications made for the two major development sites either side of Thomas Street were not approved. I do not want to comment on the subjective merits or otherwise of the planning applications, but their rejection has certainly held back the hub in its attempt to be self-financing. Renewed applications have been made, and we are confident it will receive permission for development on those sites.

Although there have been difficulties, the hub has proved exceedingly successful in being what it is meant to be - a cluster point of companies involved in digital media services. The fact that 80 companies now work in the area, some 750 people are employed and several international companies are establishing business in and around the area is a sign of success. In digital media, we are starting to see a cluster of innovative Irish companies, particularly in some mobile technologies. The Digital Hub Development Agency has worked and is working, and I am confident that it will move to being self-financing in 2010. I am happy for the Department to continue supporting it in the interim.

I welcome Deputy Coveney's comments on the RAPID programme. To answer Deputy McHugh's point, any additional funding will obviously depend on our ability to access dormant account funds. We will push for that as much as we can.

I agree with Deputy McManus's comments on broadband in schools. It is an area in which we have to see rapid improvement. We must be far more ambitious on that connectivity, particularly in secondary schools. I hope that, in the evolution to the next phase of the broadband for schools programme, we can deliver a major improvement in both the speed of connection in schools and the type of technology we can use. It is an area in which I want to work to radically improve the level of service delivery.

That is happening in certain education sectors. It is interesting to consider what the HEAnet does in third level education. We have very good connectivity in many of our colleges.

Deputy Liz McManus

There is €500,000 in the budget.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will explain the €500,000 in the budget. That is a contribution matched between ourselves and the Department of Education and Science, and in recent years it has been matched by the industry. It makes a €5 million contribution per annum. The €500,000 contribution from the Department was not the main part of the budget. The question is where to go in the next phase. My instinct - I will come back to this in more detail - is to make a far larger State support commitment to the development of connectivity to schools rather than rely on industry programmes.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Why is the Minister not doing that this year?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Because--

Deputy Liz McManus

It is less money.

Vice Chairman

One speaker at a time, please.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

One of the objectives of the next generation broadband scheme is to work out the policy details. We were still within the existing scheme, which had been established with the industry as a multi-annual scheme. That should not be interrupted halfway through, but as we come to the end of the scheme, it is due time to consider where to go next. My instinct is to agree with Deputy McManus - we need to be far more ambitious.

The same is true for medical practices, although for the most part that is a matter for the private sector. However, one of our intentions is to work with the HSE and all elements of the health sector to ensure there is demand stimulation from health services. It makes eminent sense to conduct a great deal of distance medical work, such as the examination of X-rays. There is no reason such work could not be done from a local health centre or general practitioner clinic or a consultant's advice could not be sought without having to arrange a visit, which is expensive and time consuming. I agree with Deputy McManus that we have to be far more ambitious on that.

Deputy McManus commented on the national broadband scheme and the commitment to meet all reasonable requests. I understand the point and will come back to the Deputy with the specifics. However, "reasonable requests" already exists as a technical term in a universal service provision obligation that Eircom and other providers have to meet. If someone built a house in a location that was very difficult to access, Eircom could say it was not within its universal service provision obligation and was beyond all reasonable request status. A similar yardstick will apply in the national broadband scheme. There may be instances - for a range of different technical reasons - when a house is not accessible within the term "all reasonable requests". In those instances my instinct would be to use satellite to ensure broadband provision for the small percentage of houses not easily accessible, for whatever local or geographic reasons, by any other technological means. I can provide the Deputy with details of the existing definition. It is a matter that the company determines in conjunction with ComReg.

The issue of quality is primarily one for the company. We are in a much more competitive market now with significant investment by a series of technology platform providers competing with each other. If a company is not providing a high speed good quality broadband connection, it risks losing business to another operator. In addition, ComReg has a role in working with providers to make sure the services provided match the advertised standards. Regarding the national broadband scheme, it is envisaged that the roll-out will be completed by the end of 2009. I think I have answered Deputy McHugh's question on additional funding.

On the MANs connection to the outside world, there is an issue in terms of the fibre-optic ring provided. All have connectivity on a range of networks. Some connect to the BT network, some to the ESB network, while almost all have access or should connect to the Eircom network. The difficulty is that the cost of some of the backhaul network is large. Unless there is a very large volume of traffic, the price does not tend to come down. The difficulty is how to bring down the price of backhaul connectivity to metropolitan area networks. It is happening. We are starting to see operators of a number of networks coming in and connecting to and digging into businesses, getting a customer and using that customer to achieve the volume of business that allows connection to a second customer. The MANs are the correct long-term investment because we are going to switch to a fibre-based system. However, in many instances, particularly in smaller more isolated towns, there is a real difficulty, not just because of access to the backhaul connection but because of the cost of the connection.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I would not consider my town isolated.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Nor would I. However, in terms of the volume of data traffic, there is a different business case to be made when one is in Cork as opposed to Ballingeary. The volume of data traffic coming from each is different. How to make that economical will be the crucial issue. One way to do it is to try to provide as much high quality fibre as possible and a variety of fibre networks of which people can avail. That is why we spent €1.5 million in providing for ducting adjacent to the Bord Gáis pipeline which is being built from Claremorris to Belmullet to the Corrib gas pipeline. There was a decision in the Department to provide for ducting at the same time in order that we could start building alternative fibre networks that would improve the market and bring the price down.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

Should that not be happening elsewhere?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I have every intention of ensuring it happens elsewhere.

Vice Chairman

I ask that speakers be allowed to speak uninterrupted when they have the floor.

Deputy Liz McManus

I have two questions, one of which relates to old age pensioners. The Minister might have mentioned them but I missed it. The other question relates to satellite provision. I appreciate there is a court action under way and that the Minister may not be able to comment. He mentioned satellite provision for persons who are very isolated. It is my understanding the court case is being taken because satellite providers are excluded from making a submission on the scheme. Is that correct?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am reluctant to make any comment on a court case. It would not be right to do so.

Deputy Liz McManus

What about old age pensioners?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I understand that where people access the Internet using a land line, the Department of Social and Family Affairs telephone allowance applies to line usage and will cover the cost of calls or Internet usage up to the level of the allowance. The Department of Social and Family Affairs is examining how best to address cases where a land line is not available and customers do not avail of their allowance in respect of a mobile phone. I can provide the Deputy with more detail than that. It is a Department of Social and Family Affairs issue.

Deputy Liz McManus

It is a commitment in the Government programme. Will the Minister make sure it happens?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am keen to get the programme for Government introduced as quickly as possible.

Deputy Liz McManus

It is not the Minister's responsibility.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is primarily the responsibility of the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Deputy Liz McManus

Purely or primarily?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Purely. I note that Deputy Gilmore is about to speak.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 12.10 p.m.

Vice Chairman

I welcome everybody back and take the opportunity to welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Tony Killeen. We will now deal with subheads C1 to C6

Deputy Simon Coveney

We are dealing with broadcasting. The Minister spoke very well in the debate in the Dáil. My only comment is that I am not sure about the Cork accent.

These subheads relate to the television licence fee, an issue I have raised previously. We should, perhaps, do a value for money audit on how TV licence fees are collected. I recognise the Department is reviewing and trying to improve the way An Post makes collections and there is an effort to minimise the number of people who avoid paying their TV licence fee. I would like the Minister's view on whether there should be an open tender for the collection of TV licence fees in the future and on whether the Department is considering a total transformation in the way this money is collected. In essence it is now a broadcasting fee, not just a TV licence fee. It costs approximately €13 million to collect. I would like the Minister's view on that.

When will we see the broadcasting Bill? I understand it will be soon. Will it be finalised before the summer recess?

Regarding the €10 million being spent on the broadcasting fund, what follow-up mechanisms are being used to measure the success rate of the grant aid being given out within the independent broadcasting fund? I strongly support it and would like to see further expansion of it in terms of its overall percentage of the television licence fee. With that expansion we need to know and, at the end of each year, be able to evaluate where the money has been spent and how effectively on television and radio programming.

Deputy Liz McManus

Deputy Coveney asked about the future of television licence fee collection. I have tried to extract information on the current situation and I am not getting any answers. I asked the Minister, for example, to tell me the number of television licence inspections that took place each month this year, the number of television licence inspectors and the number of people found not to have a television licence. I did not get an answer. Advertisements are being broadcast on radio which state there are approximately 18,000 inspections each month, which I find incredible. I do not understand how the Minister has such a hands-on role in terms of this part of the budget but cannot give me answers to very simple questions in order that we can ascertain whether the money is being collected. I find this regrettable.

I used to be spokesperson on health. The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, has had to take a lot of flak for saying she transfers questions to the HSE. It may take months but one does get an answer from it. In this instance all I get is a statement that the Minister has no official responsibility to Dáil Éireann for this matter, which is one for An Post. That is not an answer I find acceptable and we need to deal with it.

In regard to the increase, inflation is now at 5%. There is a big issue we have had to address at this committee relating to the shortfall in the provisions inside RTE. It is not clear how that issue is to be resolved without additional funding. The Minister might advise us as to his view on the shortfall in pension provision.

The other question relates to RTE and digital terrestrial television, DTT, and the impact it will have, ahead of our own plans, on the east coast because of the changeover occurring in Britain, Wales in particular. That will happen in 2009. For many living along the east cost, including in the Minister's constituency and mine, it will mean they will lose out. I would be grateful if the Minister would advise us whether there has been any movement to deal with that matter.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

In regard to the licence fee and how we collect it, in October a service level agreement was reached with An Post setting out a framework for three years indicating how the licence fee would be collected, delivery of service and so on. On Deputy McManus's points regarding the number of inspections each month, the number of inspectors and the number of people who do not have a television licence, I understand there is a parliamentary question which has been tabled for answer today. I will check to see what the answer is. If it does not give sufficient detail, I will come back to the Deputy with the detail directly. I do not have the figures indicating how many inspections are made but I will commit to coming back with that information.

From a general viewpoint, we also need to look at what is evolving. I am hopeful that next week we will be able to announce details of upgrades in the way people can apply for their television licence. In addition, the broadcasting Bill provides an opportunity, which I welcome, to seek contributions from spokespersons on the other side on the sections of the Bill dealing with the television licence regarding what mechanisms should be put in place. We are at a difficult stage. It is clear that the nature of broadcasting is changing as is the nature of devices on which one can receive broadcast material. In many instances it is mobile and the whole licensing around that is more difficult. However, it has not changed yet in a manner that means that we should fundamentally change the nature of the collection system. That would undermine public broadcasting here. At the same time we have to keep it under review and keep certain flexibility so that if the nature of broadcasting changes radically in the next five years we will be in a position to adapt to it. It is a complicated and difficult area and it is important to minimise the cost of collection so that we can send the money where it is meant to go, which is into broadcasting.

In general, I welcome the service level agreement with An Post and its willingness to enter into new ways of working because it will need across all its operations a much more flexible innovative approach to service delivery because we are facing into a very different e-communications environment. There is a whole range of different service areas where we can bring down costs, improve service delivery and in the long run improve the business for An Post by being ahead of such technological and service developments.

Deputy Coveney asked about the broadcasting Bill. I hope to have it published next week. I understand - we will have to check with the Whip's office - it may go into the Seanad first because there is a backlog of legislation in the Dáil. Not enough legislation went through earlier in the year but now, due to timing, it may go to the Seanad first and then to the Dáil. That may be a good thing for members opposite in that it gives Members plenty of time to consider what is a very detailed and lengthy Bill. I will be happy to have quite open discussions on it and listen to suggestions for change. Deputy Coveney mentioned one in terms of the broadcasting fund and how it might be increased. I look forward to debating that when we get to the particular provision in the Bill.

In terms of the €10 million plus allocated to it, this is a difficult area to assess because we are dealing in subjective quality programmes. The BCI, which is commissioned to manage the fund, does an annual review showing allocations and reports on outputs. My sense is that it has been hugely successful and that it has delivered high quality programming that might not otherwise have been produced and broadcast. It is a success on which we want to build. The BCI has managed it well. There are issues in terms of the mechanism for allocating funds. The issue of how it is managed in a way that promotes creative independent producers needs to be reviewed and it can be discussed when we are discussing the Bill.

In terms of the overall increase in funding to RTE, the process engaged in was a proper one and is part of a five-year process. In 2003 the Government gave a significant increase to RTE in the region of €40 in the licence fee on the understanding that would lead to a significant increase in indigenous home-produced programming which it has done. That is one of the reasons RTE has continued to be very successful in terms of holding audience share; people like watching home-produced programming. Agreed in that context was a proposal that each year there would be a review of the outputs of RTE and of the efficiencies and that any further licence fee increase would be predicated on success in achieving those targets.

On that basis, looking at the output returns in 2006-2007 and the evolving budget situation in RTE we believe it was right to put in a licence fee increase, albeit a small one, of €2. We agreed also with RTE to review the process, because after five years it was due to be reviewed, and in particular we would review the equation in terms of quality of output and efficiency gains, going into much more detail, not just on the number of hours of programming in each sector but trying to get audience qualitative response and a much more subjective assessment of the quality of programming coming through as one of the measures that would be taken into account in a further licence fee increase. Likewise, efficiency and flexibility within the company are important, so that if there is a commercial downturn - in particular, if there is a reduction in advertising revenue, making it more difficult for inflationary or other reasons to put through licence fee increases - RTE will be better able to manage its resources effectively.

I see the pensions issue primarily as an issue for the company, working in conjunction with the Department of Finance, which is responsible for the details of any State or paid pension provision. It is not our job as a Department to get into the details of how it is administered. That is the role of the company and the authority in terms of considering its resource allocation. There is a significant series of projects in which RTE must engage - including digital terrestrial television, an upgrade of its own equipment and studios to enable digital recording and broadcasting, and a review of the premises - all of which represent major capital demands on the company, and it must take that into account as well as the obvious revenue implications of pension provision. That is a matter for the unions and the company in the first instance, with reference to the Department of Finance, which is responsible for the conditions that apply in any pension arrangements.

I mentioned digital terrestrial television, DTT. Deputy McManus is right to point out that there is a real concern that the UK's roll-out of its digital service and switching off of the corresponding analogue service, which will mean the end of the free-to-air service in Wales in 2009, will have a knock-on effect on Irish homes on the east coast which currently receive BBC Wales on an overspill basis. Thus, the fast delivery of DTT is of crucial importance. A process of engagement is continuing and has been working quite effectively. The Department has had a series of meetings with the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, which is administering the roll-out of commercial digital services, RTE, which is responsible for public services, and ComReg, which is responsible for licensing. We have had a detailed series of meetings checking that we are on track. The BCI process is up for competitive tender at this time and we should see an outcome for this later in the year. Our aim is to have a DTT services running sometime between mid-2009 and the second half of 2009 to cover the eventuality of switching off of BBC services, so that we do not leave the Irish public in certain areas with a gap. The majority of households will have access to ongoing programming via satellite or cable, so it will not affect them, but it will affect a number of people who are relying currently on an analogue system.

I have also had a series of meetings with my UK counterpart to try to synchronise the North-South aspects to ensure that we have a common switch-off in both areas and that we develop our digital system in a co-ordinated manner by sharing masts, transmission systems and so on. I would like to ensure that the current system whereby RTE1 is available in the North, continues. At the moment it is on an overspill basis, but I would like to make sure RTE is available on a public service free-to-air basis. Much work needs to be done on the roll-out of DTT.

The money we spent on our own digital television trial has been useful in working out some of the technical aspects. The key development will be the co-ordination of the roll-out of the public service DTT channels and the ones that are being managed by BCI and the three commercial platforms. I would like to see this being co-ordinated so that a good service, combining free-to-air channels such as RTE1 and TV3, other commercial channels and innovative new channels, is available to the public.

Deputy Liz McManus

I would like to make a few quick points. The Department of Finance is part of the problem in that it does not articulate an policy that RTE can follow. I ask the Minister to consider dealing with the new Minister for Finance and take an interest in the matter. Otherwise we could end up in a really difficult position. Many in RTE are extremely concerned about their future. It is clear that the fund has not been properly resourced and that the Department of Finance is not giving the guidance required. It is not as simple as the Minister sets out and I ask him to take a more active role in the matter.

Let me ask one question on An Post. Is there provision in the budget for the establishment of post codes?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

On the pensions issue, as the Department has a liaison role between the Department of Finance and the various State agencies, we are and will be proactive. However, the Department of Finance ultimately makes the decisions on the terms of any pension deal that has to be set out. We work with the company in communicating through that process. I will work actively. I met a deputation from the RTE unions; nobody wants to see this issue drag out and I would like to see it resolved.

There is no budgetary provision for establishing post codes other than in the consultancy area. We engaged consultants to do the work we needed to do following the Government's decision in May last year, which asked that a further economic analysis be made to underpin the economic case for post codes. It is a difficult issue because in my mind post codes are fundamental to the development of a new, flexible e-communications infrastructure. They would bring huge benefits to An Post in meeting higher delivery standards.

Deputy Liz McManus

An Post disagrees with the Minister.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That is my view.

Deputy Liz McManus

He needs some evidence for saying that.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That is why we have engaged consultants to carry out some of the economic analysis.

Deputy Liz McManus

The Minister is saying--

Vice Chairman

Deputy McManus should let the Minister finish and then speak.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I believe post codes would benefit the economy and have a whole range of other applications in the development of public services. They would lead to a better postal sector and help An Post deliver efficiencies. I strongly believe they are a proper development for us to pursue. To answer the Deputy's third question, one of the aspects on which we are spending money is a consultancy project examining some of the wider benefits that would accrue in other areas outside the postal sector, including transport and health, where the ability to have a clearer location indicator could bring other social benefits.

Deputy Liz McManus

While I do not want to delay the meeting, belief must be based on something real. An Post has made it clear that whether we have post codes has no bearing on the work it does. The Minister may be correct about the economy but the point he makes is that they would allow post to be delivered quicker. An Post has clearly stated that is not its view. Therefore, the Minister needs more than just belief to convince us.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

People are entitled to their views--

Deputy Liz McManus

I could say I believe in fairies but I do not expect the Minister to agree with me.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will not even begin to try to work that out, but I will cite an interesting paper presented at the postal conference ComReg organised last year at which a series of international speakers made presentations showing post codes were an integral part of a modern postal communications service. The fact that most, if not all, modern western developed economies use them shows they are beneficial. The development of much e-commerce technology and the delivery of services and products via the Internet benefit from a postal code service. There is a range of reasons I believe post codes make sense and I will use my office to promote them and have them introduced quickly.

Deputy Liz McManus

It would cost a lot of money.

Vice Chairman

I hope the Minister and An Post will come to a consensus. We move to subheads D1 to D5.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I apologise to the Vice Chairman for my absence for ten minutes.

I will return to the old chestnut, the greener homes scheme. When the Minister took charge last year, he was given a hospital pass. Somebody had made a significant budgeting error in anticipating the cost of the scheme and the Minister had to find €16 million from somewhere to bail out the Department. That was a substantial percentage of the overall cost and the Estimate was not even close to the actual figure. We need to make sure the same mistakes are not made this year in demand-led schemes such as the greener homes scheme or the warmer homes, combined heat and power or house of tomorrow schemes. How has the budget been calculated for this year? Has the allocation been calculated by reference to the money the Department has or on the basis of an estimate of what this demand-led scheme will require this year?

Having spoken to Sustainable Energy Ireland, I share its concerns, although its officers will not admit them publicly, about whether there are sufficient funds to ensure the scheme will not have to be cut off much earlier than expected. On one level the scheme is a victim of its own success, as more people have bought into it than initially anticipated. Will the Minister assure the committee that we will not see a repeat of the fiasco of last year when the Department had to scramble around to find money from other, totally disconnected sectors such as the broadband fund, in effect raiding them to pay for the miscalculation? It would be very helpful if he dealt with the matter in some detail.

The Department has a relatively small amount of money for gas services under subhead D2. From the point of view of energy security, has the Minister considered putting resources into gas storage facilities? The possibilities of storing gas in disused gas fields emerged from a useful meeting with the new CEO of Bord Gáis and we should explore them proactively and with imagination. For example, a number of the Kinsale gas fields, off the coast of my own county, are empty but offer a significant opportunity for carbon and gas storage. My understanding from the meeting with Bord Gáis is that we only have four days' gas supply in the event of a problem with our interconnectors and money has not been provided to explore that option. Perhaps it could become the subject of a Supplementary Estimate.

On the energy resource budget, I strongly welcome the funding for ocean energy projects. My understanding is that it involves developing wave energy pilot projects into bigger ones, with a view to establishing whether they are commercially viable. That would be very welcome. Will the Minister clarify whether my understanding is correct? Does the ocean energy budget also cover tidal energy projects? Concern has been expressed to me about the fact that the ocean energy budget is entirely taken up by wave energy research.

Will the Minister update the committee on potential industrial relations problems in installing smart meters in households? Smart metering is essential to promote a series of other micro-generation projects which we are trying to get companies and particularly households to buy into.

Deputy Liz McManus

I note there is a section on strategic energy infrastructure and the possibility of Exchequer funding for the development of that infrastructure. There is a token provision of €1 million. I suspect this is the first time we have spoken in this way. Until now funding has come from State companies' own resources. Will the Minister advise the committee as to what exactly is envisaged for the coming year?

A considerable budget has now been spent on the greener homes scheme. Some of it has been taken from other subheads and used to fill a gap. Has there been any evaluation of how effective the scheme is in terms of follow-up? I was surprised to see how little direct contact there was with the person applying for the grant and SEI. I appreciate the scale of applications is huge, but | wonder whether there has been a full evaluation of whether this will be successful into the future, whether what is being provided is being used and what the benefits are. Will the Minister comment on this?

Fuel poverty is a big issue and set to become bigger. I am not satisfied that either the Minister or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government recognises that 60,000 households, according to an SEI estimate, and 100,000, according to the Combat Poverty Agency, are living in fuel poverty. There are 700 local authority houses in my constituency that need upgrading with proper heating, windows and doors. By the end of this year funding for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government scheme is to be reduced to 50% for such work. It is currently 100%. That will have severe implications for those living in poorly insulated houses, who are on low incomes and simply cannot afford to upgrade the houses themselves. It also has implications for local authorities which will not be in a position to meet their needs. What is being done to deal in a significant way with fuel poverty and assist householders who are not in a position to take up a greener homes grant but need more than anybody to have full support?

Will the Minister comment on the Corrib gas field and the new pipeline proposal submitted?

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

What co-operation or connectivity is there between the Minister's Department and the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on the question of greener homes? I do not want go back over what was said. I understand the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is installing central heating in every local authority house, a scheme that must be completed by the end of September, but there is no provision for those who want to use an alternative fuel. The Department is insisting on oil-fired central heating. There seems to be a conflict of policy. What is the Minister's position on the matter?

Similarly, what co-operation is there between the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on the production of bioenergy crops, given that right across the country a number of co-operatives and business people have secured planning permission to build factories to convert these crops to fuel but cannot go ahead because of the lack of incentives, funding and direction from either Department?

The issue of gas services has been mentioned. The budget does not reassure me as to the likelihood of a roll-out of natural gas to isolated towns such as Nenagh or Roscrea. This is despite the fact that the chief executive of Bord Gáis told this committee the roll-out of natural gas was high on the board's list of priorities. I appeal to the Minister not to forget the constituencies, such as the one I represent, in the heart of rural Ireland when planning services such as this.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

There were two principal reasons the greener homes scheme ran into budgetary difficulties last year. First, the uptake changed around March or April. Before that time applications were coming in but the majority did not proceed to construction. The situation changed quickly, for a variety of reasons, from roughly 50% of applications going to completion to about 70%. That change was difficult to predict and manage. The house of tomorrow scheme also created a budgetary strain. Because development is a three or four year process involving planning, construction and completion, that scheme was several years in existence. The uptake on the scheme came through in a very lumpy way and draw-down became stronger in its later stages. This is related to the fact that a record number of houses, probably 90,000, were built in that year. A strong late demand came through. Those two developments created a real difficulty.

I do not see this difficulty as a fiasco. It was a success. We wanted the greener homes scheme to be a success and it was a huge success. There are aspects and details of it from which we should learn.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It was a budgetary fiasco.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No. One could not completely control that level of change. It required a budgetary correction and that is what we made.

I am much more confident this year that the figures we have provided for are being managed perfectly effectively. We have a much more stable throughput of projects. The house of tomorrow scheme was completed in June 2007 on the recognition that the new building regulations, which we will introduce this summer, are setting the very standards for which the house of tomorrow scheme aimed. We are doing the right thing in learning from the house of tomorrow scheme to build up a body of expertise in the construction industry so that high standards can be delivered on a widespread basis. Only today, I was invited to see a Cosgrave development in Drimnagh, Dublin, of houses which are built to house of tomorrow standard. The draw-down on this scheme is much easier for us to manage in the future. Likewise with the greener homes scheme, we have seen a much steadier flow of applications, which I believe can be managed.

Schemes are not there forever and a day. We do not design these schemes to be a continuous presence. They are intended to build up an economy of scale and a supply chain so that commercial applications can take off. Technologies then enter the mainstream, their supply becomes more reliable and quality issues are addressed. One of the advantages of the greener homes scheme is that it allows one to manage quality and delivery standards. Once that has happened the State can withdraw and the market can deliver. That will continue to evolve, particularly as we bring in new standards. If the new building standards have a renewable energy requirement the case will be strengthened for putting solar panels or other renewable technologies into houses. They already make economic sense at a new build stage, regardless of any support. When they are mandated in a flexible way, as we are doing in the building regulations, they will continue to be managed and new technologies introduced as appropriate to build up such economies of scale.

Deputy Coveney is absolutely right in what he says about gas storage. In effect, we are reliant on being completely connected to the UK gas market for more than 90% of our gas supplies, mainly from the North Sea. We are at risk from any disturbance to such gas supplies. Gas and electricity prices spiked in 2005 due to the United Kingdom's difficulty in meeting its own needs or securing additional gas supplies. This is a crucial issue and the provision of storage facilities is one of the solutions for which we have to provide to address it. We must look on a reduction in our dependence on such supplies as the only sustainable long-term solution. In that regard, I agree it would make sense to use depleted gas storage facilities. The Commission for Energy Regulation has granted a gas storage licence to Marathon Oil to make full use of its depleted gas facility as a storage facility. Capacity of 7 billion cu. ft. is available to third parties.

Another development in this regard is the giving of permission for an LPG facility at Shannon with storage aspects. One cannot be certain of delivery because one is competing on the international gas markets but it does have an effect. I understand there are other options also. Studies have been undertaken of salt deposits in Larne, near Belfast, in respect of their gas storage capabilities and I am sure other concepts will be developed. Subhead D2 is purely technical and is not related to that issue.

Two weeks ago my Department published, in conjunction with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland, a security of gas supply study which is of key strategic interest and we have put on the website. Although not of mainstream interest to the general public, it deals with a very important issue.

To respond to Deputy Coveney, the ocean energy programme we have introduced includes a series of commitments. It aims to provide for better test facilities in Cork, wave testing primarily at the new maritime college; to launch a prototype support fund in order that we can start to bring into the sea much larger devices, close to commercial scale; and to provide for a grid-connected site in Belmullet to complement the one in Galway Bay. Deputy McHugh will be glad to hear that the reason we chose the site in Belmullet is that we can use the pier in Killybegs to service it. The programme also aims to provide for a support price which matches best practice support prices in other jurisdictions, including Portugal, the United Kingdom and elsewhere. That support price is available to support tidal as well wave power projects. This is one of the important measures which is not us getting involved in deciding which technological solution will work best; it sets the support price which allows the market to test different tidal devices, as is being done at Strangford Lough and will continue into next year.

I agree that the provision of smart meters is a crucial development. My Department is working with SEI, the CER and the ESB on a delivery programme. I do not have the details in terms of the industrial relations aspects but it is such a progressive and crucial project that I hope any difficulties can be overcome quickly and we can start to reap the benefits of its roll-out.

On subhead D5, I believe the amount is €1,000 rather than €1 million as stated by Deputy McManus. There is a flexible mechanism in the event that there is a decision by the State to invest in strategic energy infrastructure. The obvious example would be the east-west interconnector on which EirGrid is working. We will be looking to have the tender documents and the contracts for construction ready to go by the end of the year. The decisions in respect of its financing are complex and will require Government approval. The Department of Finance and other Departments will have an interest in the matter. That the EirGrid Bill will be before the House tomorrow is crucial because it gives the company the borrowing capability to fund such infrastructure.

The real question is how we can secure best-priced delivery. By providing certainty for the international developers who build these projects that the capital funding is in place, we make it easier to get a good price. The decision on whether we borrow, which could be very effective, as it is a regulated asset and borrowing should be cheap, or carry out the project with direct State investment, is a strategic one, but either will work. We want flexibility, which is why the budgetary provision is made.

A question was asked about the follow-up on the greener homes scheme. This is not possible because around 26,000 applications have been received, although I do not have the exact number, and it would be hard to measure each one directly. However, we are trying to learn as we go along. The energy insulation scheme for existing homes will incorporate exactly such a measure, with an assessment of the energy performance of the building beforehand, contracting of changes to improve the insulation and energy efficiency of the building and, crucially, a follow-up energy assessment. This before and after test will enable measurement of the financial benefit to the householder and a reduction in emissions. That is a nice example of what the Deputy suggested. It is more difficult when one is considering an individual capital grant for a solar panel or a wood-fired heating system because these are smaller devices provided on a stand-alone basis.

The issue of fuel poverty is crucial at a time when the price of oil is heading for $120 a barrel and gas prices are volatile. The warmer homes scheme, under which community and social welfare programmes are used to effect delivery of insulation for low income and local authority housing, is a good response within the Department. There have also been significant developments by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the context of its responsibility for upgrading local authority housing. In Dublin City Council, of which I was previously a member, it was an extensive programme. The housing stock in the local authority housing sector is probably being upgraded in a better way than other types of housing stock. The local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government have been dealing with this issue, not to the extent that it is finished, but progress is being made. Those on low incomes in private houses are having difficulties, but I hope the warmer homes scheme and the new scheme we are introducing will address the issue.

With regard to the Corrib gas pipeline, I note that Shell has highlighted in its application the papers it is due to send. This will be processed in the same way as any other application. It is a complicated issue because it involves not only the Department but also An Bord Pleanála, as I imagine it would qualify under the strategic infrastructure legislation, and the foreshore licensing section of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. As members will see on the map of the planned project, it does involve foreshore licence applications. This will be processed in the same manner as any other project and there will be proper consultation with all stakeholders - the local community, the company and any other interested bodies.

I agree with the point made by Deputy Coonan. One of the key developments on which we must work in the second half of this year is the national energy efficiency action plan, one aspect of which is to make sure no public building in the State is fitted with outdated technology such as oil-fired central heating. It is up to us to lead by example.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

What about that system?

Deputy Liz McManus

We are doing that.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

They are doing it.

Deputy Liz McManus

Under pressure.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I agree that we need to move towards more fuel efficient and sustainable local supplies.

We have a key opportunity in the agriculture sector. We have introduced a number of measures in the last three months which will be of benefit, including the development of a new biomass combined heat and power programme. This would provide a very strong market for biomass products in that CHP. The doubling of the support price available for electricity produced from biomass crops has seen a series of people involved in agriculture coming to me and saying they will get into anaerobic digestion, dealing with the waste product as well as providing electricity. We have introduced measures that will have a significant effect on the delivery of real projects quite quickly.

The wider issue is bio-fuels and how we develop them in a sustainable manner and ensure Irish crops are encouraged and developed. We could spend a great deal of time on this but it is worthy of much debate. It is a complex and difficult process we will have to go through as we publish a bio-fuels obligation policy paper. We will have to examine this in detail. It is complex, it is not easy, and, as we have seen, it has a wide variety of global as well as local variables and we will have to work through it in some detail.

Deputy Liz McManus

I have a question.

Vice Chairman

Just a minute, Deputy Coveney wanted to speak. I have had a request from a Deputy to finish around 1 p.m. to 1.30 p.m. I have no problem and could stay here all day and night. However, I suggest that if questions be kept to specific, exact bullet points rather that long speeches we might be able to facilitate the Deputy and get the meeting moving.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I have a number of follow-up questions on energy. On a point of information, is the Minister's Department involved in financing the marine research centre which was in Haulbowline, County Cork, and was destroyed by fire several months ago? It is now in temporary accommodation. There was a marine energy research element to the work going on there. The Minister probably does not have the answer now but I ask him to look into it and talk to other colleagues to ensure that body is rehoused and gets up and running again because much exciting work went on there. It is in the attic of another building now.

Is the Minister satisfied there is enough co-ordination between the different bodies that are financing research and energy conservation work? I refer particularly to Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI, Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, which has a new role in energy and the EPA. Concerns have been expressed that with three very large bodies all with a responsibility for energy conservation, research and technology development, overlap and duplication may take place and there may be some financial wastage. There must be co-ordination between those three bodies and the Department to ensure we get the most efficient outcome for the money we spend.

Deputy Liz McManus

On judging the greener homes scheme, surely the Minister can appreciate it is relatively easy to do a spot check and get some information back. The Minister probably does not recall the Department of the Environment home improvement scheme that was outrageously abused; people got windows five times over. It would be no harm to initiate spot checks. The Minister states that 7,652 people on low incomes benefited from the low income housing scheme in the four years between 2003 and 2007. Anybody reading that might think it was that number of households, but I wonder if the Minister means people, and the number of households was much smaller. Either way it is only a drop in the ocean, but it would be disturbing if the number refers to people rather than households. Could he clarify that?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will be very brief as I am conscious of time constraints. Sustainable Energy Ireland has established an ocean energy development centre and the National Maritime College of Ireland in Cork has a co-ordinating role in ocean energy research.

Deputy Coveney asked about co-ordination among SFI, SEI and the EPA and I was very pleased to be able to introduce a third leg to SFI's investment strategy so that, as well as ICT and biopharmacy, it can now invest in energy. It tends to focus more on building capacity that will lead to commercial application than on strictly commercial research. SEI's involvement is in more immediately commercial research, in conjunction with wave companies and others trying to develop commercial devices. However, both bodies have a role and they will work closely together. Both are involved in the Irish Energy Research Council, which has recently concluded its work and produced a report which I hope to publish shortly. Co-ordination takes place via that vehicle, the EPA and other bodies.

There is a spot check on one in every ten homes in the greener homes scheme, which is a sufficiently random sample to provide an incentive to installers do their job. The figure of 7,652 relates to homes - not people.

Vice Chairman

We will now take subheads E1 to E6.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Subhead E1 deals with petroleum services. Can the Minister update us on our claims in respect of disputed areas, on which he is working with the Department of Foreign Affairs? I have forgotten the name of the area concerned - I believe it is just off Rockall and is part of the continental shelf. Ireland is laying claim to the area, which has been the subject of a legal dispute for some time.

I wish to focus on subhead E2, in particular as it relates to mining compensation payments. I have met several families who have lost loved ones as a result of the health consequences of working in mines in places such as Ballingarry. Some people continue to suffer significant health consequences from injuries directly attributable to working in the mines. There is not a huge number of them so the State should be generous in terms of the compensation scheme. Can the Minister give some details as to how the allocation of €2.254 million for mining compensation payments will be spent?

Subhead E5 relates to the national sea bed survey, which has now developed into the INFOMAR programme. Can the Minister outline the benefits gained from the national sea bed survey to date? We are mapping our offshore sea bed so that we can ascertain its depth and the type of rock of which it consists and have spent €33 million on the project to date. It would be helpful to have information on the kind of dividend or return that can give in terms of potential exploitation of natural resources, protection of the sea bed, and finding suitable areas for marine conservation, fish breeding and so on.

Deputy Liz McManus

I am concerned about the issue of mining in terms of compensation, which has already been dealt with, and in terms of the remediation approach of the Department. I have written to the chairman asking that we deal with this at one of our meetings. My colleague, Senator Kelly, raised the issue of the clean-up and remediation at Silvermines and Gortmore in particular where money was allocated. It now appears, according to the local authority, that the costings are double what was expected and there is now a question mark over a commitment the Government made to provide €10.6 million for this project. The Minister needs to address this.

In my area of County Wicklow the Department has been investigating the mines at Avoca. Having spoken to the local organisation that has looked after that area over the years, and which has sought to have the mining heritage and tradition of Avoca retained and used as a tourist resort, I am aware there is significant disenchantment at the Department's approach. I will not go into it because the concerns are quite numerous and I intend to ask that this committee deal with it in more detail. However, I ask the Minister to examine the Department's approach. Local people want places made safe, but they have concerns quite separate from that about this top-down approach in which they do not seem to get a hearing. Whether the money is there is another question.

I am curious to know the situation in regard to Avoca because the amount of funding has not been spelt out. No funding has been provided and we have no idea how much it will cost. However, my main concern is what provision the Minister is making to listen to local people in a local community that needs investment. South Wicklow is not an area that has weathered well in recent times, particularly the area around Arklow, and Avoca is in the hinterland of Arklow. I ask that there be a more consensual approach. The Minister always lectures us about consensus. His Department might consider adopting that approach.

My final question relates to Ordnance Survey Ireland. Am I right in believing it is being decentralised or moved?

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

On subhead E2, I indicated that Deputy McGrath and I will concentrate on the Ballingarry miners and the issue of compensation for miners. This involves a group of miners that includes miners who worked at Arigna and Castlecomer who, as a result of their work, have suffered enormously from pneumoconiosis, a disease of the lung. The number is limited because most of them are deceased. In Britain, a scheme of compensation for miners who were affected by their work was introduced and miners were very well looked after. That has not yet happened here. I ask the Minister to introduce a scheme to compensate families who have suffered. I have listened to the Minister's leader speak about human rights in Tibet. Human rights should be respected nearer to home. I ask the Minister to meet the miners from Ballingarry, Arigna and Castlecomer and see what they have had to put up with over the years. This is a serious situation. I hope the Minister will respond seriously to it and accede to my request. This issue has been raised over many years but successive Governments have failed to address it. It is coming to a head now. I seek the Minister's support. I ask him to introduce a scheme and to meet the miners and address their concerns. It appears that the community around Silvermines, outside Nenagh, will suffer another dust-blow this summer because of inaction.

The Minister spoke earlier about consultants. Consultants made various recommendations to the Minister, which were accepted by the Department and a fund of more than €10 million was allocated. We are now told the funding will be divided into three stages over three or four years. Funding for the initial stage will amount to €4.5 million. The management of North Tipperary County Council is at a loss as to why such an amount of money is being squandered on the bureaucracy of introducing new contracts each year. A different contractor will have to be sought, a new contract drawn up and an amount of money and time spent on that process. The Minister spoke about efficiency and value for money. I suggest that he reappraise this proposal with a view to implementing it as a single contract job, as was originally proposed.

I cannot see the necessity for this continued delay, especially as we look back on a departmental programme in which money was left unspent. This programme is crucial to the people of the area, who have put up with this problem for several years and will be subjected to a dust-blow and contamination again this summer. Farmers will be unable to use land and animals have died in the area. There is huge concern about this problem. I want a commitment from the Minister that the programme, as proposed by the consultants and North Tipperary County Council, will be carried out to the full and that there will be no further delay on it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I support my colleague, Deputy Coonan, with regard to the issues he has raised. The Silvermines problem is urgent and must be brought to a head. I also support, as this committee promised to do, his efforts to bring the sad situation of the miners in Ballingarry and elsewhere to a conclusion. I fully support his request for a meeting with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Tony Killeen)

The first issue raised by Deputy Coveney regarding disputed areas is being progressed by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Discussions are ongoing. It is part of this year's programme for the Department to try to ensure that they are progressed to finality. I am sure that was intended in previous years. It is a slow process but the work is under way.

The issue of compensation for miners was raised by all four Deputies. There are two different issues. One is the subject of a parliamentary question by Deputy Coveney and has been raised with several previous Ministers, some of whom have met the miners concerned. The fundamental difference between Ireland and the United Kingdom is that for most of the period under consideration mining in the United Kingdom was under state ownership. In Ireland, mines were generally private operations. Some discussions took place on the previous occasion with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, as Deputy Mattie McGrath has said. The schemes provided by that Department were examined with a view to providing an enhanced scheme. That Department does not provide an enhanced scheme for any other group.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

The Irish miners suffer the same health problems and hardship but the British miners were compensated.

Vice Chairman

I cannot allow interruptions.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

Irish miners have not been compensated.

Vice Chairman

You were allowed to speak, Deputy Cooney.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

If you saw their plight you would understand.

Vice Chairman

I understand courtesy and good manners--

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

Do not talk to me about manners or courtesy.

Vice Chairman

--and that everyone has the right to speak. Everyone will get a fair opportunity. The Minister of State will speak uninterrupted as you did, Deputy Cooney. I only ask for fair play and that everyone be allowed speak.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I am asking for fair play for the miners.

Vice Chairman

You got your chance to speak and you may speak again. Do not interrupt the Minister of State.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I will continue to ask him questions. You will not stop me from asking questions or from defending the miners.

Vice Chairman

You should not interrupt.

Deputy Tony Killeen

As I was explaining--

Vice Chairman

The democratic process must be adhered to. We have a format. We will not have a free for all.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

Who is interrupting now?

Deputy Tony Killeen

As I was explaining, there is a fundamental difference, as Deputy Coonan and everyone else understand, between the situation in the United Kingdom and here. I was getting to the point of suggesting that the issue could most usefully be pursued with the other Department. I am more than happy to be a party to pursuing that as is the Minister, Deputy Ryan. The mining compensation fund, to which Deputy Coveney referred, refers to private mineral owners' rights and compensation payable to them, which is provided for here.

In regard to INFOMAR and the sea bed survey, the sea bed survey finished last year. The quality of the information is extraordinarily good. Obviously there is a scientific benefit that we would all acknowledge. There are potential benefits in the fall-out from climate change, depending on how that might turn out in terms of impact. It is really important information in that regard. Most of the sea bed survey was offshore. The INFOMAR will deal with issues closer to the shore. This year it is intended that Sligo, Donegal and Dublin bays will be done. Obviously it is important information for shipping, fisheries and other areas.

Deputies McManus and Coveney raised the issue of mine remediation. In regard to Gortmore and the Silvermines project, it was initially estimated, three or four years ago, that the Gortmore tailings management facility would cost in the order of €2 million. When detailed costings were prepared it transpired that phase will cost €11.187 million, according to the most recent estimates. It is not a matter of jumping in and spending all the money in one go. This is a remediation project which clearly has environmental impact and must be done on a phased basis. I spoke at a conference in Nenagh on Monday last and met a number of officials from North Tipperary County Council, none of whom intimated to me that there was any difficulty with the staging of the process. I am surprised to hear what Deputy Coonan said because I spoke to all who were present and that issue was not raised. Clearly there are issues in regard to the other five sites because, effectively, Silvermines is not just one or two sites. In fact it is a six process job and the Garryard waste facility, as he is aware, is probably the most difficult part. There is also the element of an upgraded wetland at Gortmore which will have to be looked at over a period to ascertain whether there is leakage into water sources and so on.

That is a concern also in the case of Avoca. There are two studies under way there. One is in regard to the process and the remediation that will be required. Alongside that there is, as Deputy McManus is aware, an INTERREG process in regard to the cultural and historical aspects of what is constructed there. There is no possibility of looking at the costs involved until the initial phase has been completed. We will try to keep people informed and ensure that whatever is required is done and that we get an accurate composite picture of what needs to be done. In regard to the Ordnance Survey Office, about which Deputy McManus asked, the proposal is to decentralise to Dungarvan.

I think I have dealt with the Ballingarry miners which was one of the issues raised by Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Simon Coveney

May I come back in?

Vice Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I do not want to get the onslaught of the Chair again.

Vice Chairman

We agreed a timetable.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The reality of the situation is that the--

Vice Chairman

If the Deputy does not wish to abide by the timetable that is fine.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Will the Chair allow me to speak, please?

Vice Chairman

Yes, I will allow the Deputy to speak. I thought we set up the formula for the meeting whereby everybody would have their opportunity to speak and would have everything ready. We did not envisage that people would come back.

Deputy Simon Coveney

My understanding is that the whole purpose of having an informal committee style discussion on Estimates is that we can have interventions to get clarity on certain issues. Obviously if it gets out of hand the Chair needs to intervene but Deputy Coonan and I are merely trying to establish the facts. My question is about the mining compensation payment and the sum of €2.25 million for 2008. Who is that money going to and how does it compare with compensation schemes in previous years? If we look at the outturn for 2007, which includes a capital carryover from the previous year, we can see that the total expenditure last year was less than the mining compensation payments this year. My inclination is to see this as positive news in terms of a compensation fund, but I am trying to obtain an explanation of it. Is it for people who have been working in mines that were previously run by the private sector? I see at least one person shaking their head, which suggests it is not.

The case being made for compensation is strong because the numbers of people concerned are small, the health consequences are significant, and many of them do not in all likelihood have too many years to live. This is not a legalistic appeal in terms of the responsibility of the State or former State companies, but a humanitarian appeal for a relatively small number of people who have had clear health consequences due to their work. There are precedents for this in other countries that do not, in my understanding, pertain solely to former state-run companies. Can we have a clearer answer as to where and to whom that €2.2 million is going? Will the Department consider discussing with the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs a way in which we could provide a reasonable humanitarian response to people who have measurable health consequences and whose lives are being shortened as a result of their former work?

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I acknowledge the Minister of State's reply and thank him for agreeing to meet the mining community to discuss these problems. Which Minister will meet the people concerned? Will it be both Ministers? Will they consider introducing a scheme such as that mentioned? These miners are part of the backbone of our economic success. They are the people who worked in the 1960s and early 1970s to keep this country going in difficult times. Miners with similar issues have been compensated in other countries across Europe. Why should Irish miners be neglected? Why will this Government not look after them now after the Celtic tiger era when they are in dire straits? They need help.

With regard to Silvermines, I do not know to whom the Minister spoke officially, but I have met the management of North Tipperary County Council on several occasions about the three stages of the process and, while they are not happy with it, they must accept it and get on with things. I ask the Minister of State to provide a cost analysis of the scheme and its administration.

Deputy Tony Killeen

With regard to Deputy Coveney's question, the initial compensation relates to private mineral owners where extraction is carried out under licence by third parties. In that case, a matching amount is provided to that recovered from the licensee. The point I was making in my first answer is that this provision is not of any assistance with regard to compensation for miners. I have no difficulty meeting people, but the progress made previously, which did not go as far as it might have, was in the context of discussions with the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs. I am happy to engage in that process if members think it will be of any advantage. I do not see a better way to make progress on this issue. I apologise to my colleague for mixing him up with another colleague of ours, which he understands perfectly as this has happened before. That is the position with regard to the subhead mentioned.

The total cost of all phases of the Silvermines project, of which there are six - in fact, there are six sites, as the Deputy is aware - is estimated at €24.354 million. At the moment we are waiting for tenders for the first phase. This Friday may be the date we expect the tenders related to the first phase to be returned. At that stage it will be much easier to judge what progress can be made. If North Tipperary County Council has any concerns, I am more than happy to talk to it.

Vice Chairman

I propose to take subheads F1 and F2.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We are rapidly running out of time. I do not have many questions on the inland fisheries sector because it is difficult to ask questions on a sector that is being restructured. The Minister brought a Supplementary Estimate on the fisheries boards into the Dáil just before Christmas. Will he update us on where he is with it? Everybody wants more efficiency and a restructured, new inland fisheries system that can improve performance in conservation, the enforcement of the rules and so on. The budget is similar to that in 2007; there is a slight increase with a carryover of some capital moneys from last year. I am more interested in the structural change the Minister is bringing about and the timescale for it.

The only other issue concerns the salmon hardship scheme. I have previously raised the question of who is eligible but the fact is that 1,000 people have applied. When will the €16 million allocated in the 2008 Estimate be given out?

Deputy Liz McManus

I would like to ask the Minister about a matter I raised previously - the non-event of decentralising the Central Fisheries Board to Carrick-on-Shannon. It did not happen and I do not know if it will. Perhaps the Minister will tell us exactly what is going on because the loss and wastage of money that is badly needed in the sector was disturbing. Offices were kitted out and never used, or were used and then abandoned. The office is now located in Swords and additional space is being rented. I do not know what the up-to-date position is, but I can clearly see Government waste in a sector where there is little funding and there are many concerns about the development of fisheries, such a key sector of the economy. Small as it is, it is an important one and it looks like the Government has been mismanaging. What has been put right in 2008 to give us confidence that the money is being used for the purpose for which it is intended?

Deputy Joe McHugh

The Minister might not have the specifics to hand, but how many salmon licences were decommissioned under the salmon licence decommissioning scheme? Is the €30 million allocation to the regional fisheries boards specifically related to current and salaries expenditure? How does the Minister envisage his process of protecting, conserving, managing and developing inland fisheries proceeding if there is a very limited amount of money set aside for it? Will he indicate how much money has been set aside for the rehabilitation of salmon stocks? Spawning grounds in many rivers have not been upgraded or rehabilitated since 1929. Has money been set aside for this and, if so, how much?

Does the Minister believe the central and regional fisheries boards are the proper mechanism for doing this work or is there a possibility of bringing in the fishing clubs which work at ground level as a vehicle for distributing the funds to do some of the work involved? Many personnel in those clubs would work proactively on the rehabilitation of rivers if they were given an acknowledgement and some responsibility. Does the Central Fisheries Board have the ultimate responsibility for the disbursement of funding and the management of rivers or is there a potential role for clubs?

The salmon community support scheme has a budget of €5 million. The Inishowen Peninsula is bigger than County Louth and has a population bigger than County Leitrim. Does he believe the allocation of €300,000 is enough for the rehabilitation of the fishing community there?

What is the Minister's position on the tagging system for draftnet fishermen on the Foyle for the coming season? Last year the distribution of tags was left until very late. What will they cost?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We engaged in discussions with the chairpersons and chief executives of the fisheries boards. Mr. David Mackey, chairman of the Central Fisheries Board, had set out a series of proposals on how we might establish new and smaller fisheries boards, mirroring the new water framework area directives, and a new relationship between the central and regional fisheries boards. We had agreed to conclude the process by the end of April and have done so. It now requires me to legislate, which I hope to do by the autumn, to bring about a new format for managing both the regional and central fisheries boards.

Deputy Coveney said 1,000 people had applied for the salmon hardship scheme. I understand that, of the €16 million allocated for the scheme this year, half has already been paid out. The remainder will be paid out in the coming months, other than cases where there are appeals.

Deputy McManus asked about the temporary accommodation for the Central Fisheries Board in Swords, which costs approximately €500,000 per annum in rent. As I understand it, funds deriving from the reallocation of lands in its former headquarters will go to recompense the board for accommodation, land and other costs in Carrick-on-Shannon or Swords. The details have to be worked out by the OPW with regard to building arrangements in Carrick-on-Shannon and the issue will be raised when the Central Fisheries Board goes before the decentralisation implementation group, DIG, on 8 May.

Deputy McHugh asked about salmon licences. The number issued so far is 1,120 and some are under appeal but the process is under way so there should be a resolution in due course. He also asked about the €30 million being spent on the inland fisheries sector. One reason for reforming the board structure is the fact that the previous structure held back investment. It has been difficult to secure the necessary level of resources while there have been large boards. Everybody admits the structures were not working properly and there were tensions between regional boards and the central board, as well as internally within boards. Until we sort that out it will be difficult to ramp up the investment to the scale needed.It already involves fishing clubs doing much of the ground work, measuring beds and improving local conditions. That is something we should encourage and develop.

There has been consideration in the Government of the role of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in this area. The Department has a role in ground-up investment via the Leader programme and other community support schemes. These are good ways of ensuring local communities are involved in the conservation effort. Clearly, the €300,000 for Inishowen will not support or maintain or have a material long-term effect for the Inishowen fishing community. However, I hope it can help steer it towards sustainable long-term practices. That is one of the intents of the allocation. The tagging scheme on the Foyle is an issue for the Loughs Agency which is independently charged with responsibility for it. I would have to refer any questions in that regard to it. I hope I have answered all the questions asked.

Vice Chairman

I propose to take subheads G1 to G3.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The only issue I want to raise is the modernisation agenda and change management. A sum of €250,000 for all of the matters outlined does not seem a significant amount, in particular to deal with issues around e-government and improving performance. One would imagine the Department would try to give some leadership, particularly on the e-government side. I will wait to see how the money is spent. I do not have a problem with its allocation.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Subhead G2 refers to change management programmes in other agencies which are non-commercial but within the remit of the Department. These include the regulators, the digital hub agency, SEI and the like. Our own change management programme is contained with our administrative budget. We are in changing times in the sectors for which we are responsible but also within the Civil Service. The Department, although small in numbers, has a huge workload in addressing very large issues.

Vice Chairman

I propose to take subhead H.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I have no questions on that subhead.

Vice Chairman

We will now discuss the output statement for the Department. Do any members wish to comment on it?

Deputy Simon Coveney

It is probably time everyone went to lunch. I thank the Chair. I also thank both Ministers and the officials from the Department for taking the time to be here.

Vice Chairman

I call on the Minister to make a closing statement.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I thank Deputies Coveney, McHugh and the other members who were here earlier. I thank my officials for their assistance in the preparation of this work. The process of delivering output statements is very useful in terms of a check on what we are doing. It is absolutely right and appropriate. I also thank the Vice Chairman for his management of that process.

Vice Chairman

That concludes our consideration of the Revised Estimates for the Public Service for the year ending 31 December 2008, Vote 30 - Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I thank the Ministers and their officials for attending.