SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Wednesday, 26 Apr 2006

Vote 26 — Department of Education and Science (Revised).

Chairman

On 23 February the Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for Vote 26 — Department of Education and Science be referred to this committee for consideration. The proposed timetable for today's meeting was circulated to committee members. It allows for opening statements by the Minister and Opposition spokespersons, followed by an open discussion on the Vote by way of a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and her officials. Briefing material provided by the Department has been circulated to members.

Minister for Education and Science (Ms Hanafin)

I thank the Chairman and committee members for giving me the opportunity to discuss the Estimates for the Department of Education and Science for 2006. In last year's volume my Department introduced a number of enhancements to the presentation of the education Vote in the Book of Estimates which built upon other significant changes made in recent years such as the change from a four Vote to a single Vote format in 2003. We have made no major changes this year, other than the introduction of a small number of new subheads to cater for new services to which I will return during my statement.

Education has done extremely well in the Estimates. With an increase of 10% being provided for this year, spending will reach almost €7.9 billion, approximately €720 million more than last year. This is clear evidence of how much the Government believes in education, not just as a key driver of our economic prosperity, but as a vital tool for improving people's lives. All children deserve a chance to reach their full potential. We know that making this a reality requires huge commitment and investment on our part and we will not be found wanting.

This year there is a particular focus on improving our school facilities, providing increased funding for schools, tackling disadvantage and helping children and adults with special needs, and building Ireland's research and development capacity. The Government is determined to ensure all our children are taught in suitable and comfortable facilities. This is no mean task, given the decades of under-investment in school buildings but it is a challenge to which we have risen with unparalleled commitment. We are providing more than €500 million for the school building and modernisation programme. This compares with a figure of just over €90 million invested in school buildings when we took office. This unprecedented level of investment will enable us not only to progress more large projects through the programme but also to increase funding for the devolved schemes. New schools are being built; older ones are being completely refurbished, while those serving developing areas are being expanded. The scale of the task before us is significant given historical under-provision in this area but through the multi-annual programme we are making huge progress.

The Estimates provide for increases in capitation and other grants paid to schools to meet day-to-day running costs that are way beyond the rate of inflation. Primary schools will receive €18 extra per pupil, with a primary of school of 300 pupils getting an extra €5,400. All second level schools will receive an extra €16 per student, with voluntary second level schools getting an extra €26 per student as part of the process of equalisation. As a result of the increases in the various direct grants to schools in recent years, a voluntary second level school with 500 students has seen its funding virtually double in just six years. In 2000 it received just over €147,000, whereas this year it will get €270,000. This is clear evidence of the Government's commitment to increased support for our schools.

The Estimates provide for a significant increase in funding for management bodies at primary level. In both capital and current expenditure terms, our schools benefit from far greater investment than ever before. However, what I am most proud of is how we have targeted massive extra resources towards helping children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas to reach their full potential in our schools.

The past year has seen major improvements in the area of special education. Having 80 local special educational needs organisers has transformed the application process for resources in a positive way. The introduction of a guaranteed staffing allocation to primary schools for children with high incidence special needs has meant that children can get help earlier without the need for an individual assessment in every case. The number of staff in our schools helping children with special needs has also increased. There are now approximately 5,000 teachers in our primary schools and 2,100 in our second level schools working directly with children with special needs, including those requiring learning support. There are over 7,300 special needs assistants in primary and second level schools supporting children with care needs. The sum of €640 million provided in the Estimates for special education will cover not just the cost of these extra staff but also that of special school transport, special schools and the National Council for Special Education. This €640 million which represents an increase of 13 % on the 2005 Estimate will allow for the major improvements made in recent years to be built upon.

Later this year the National Council for Special Education will present to me its proposed timetable for implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act which provides, among other matters, for a new appeals system and an entitlement to an individual education plan. The improvements made in recent years and those in train reflect a strong commitment to ensuring every child with special needs gets the support he or she needs to have a happy and fulfilling education.

The Estimates also provide almost €650 million to tackle disadvantage in education at all levels. This is enabling the roll-out of extra supports under the new DEIS action plan such as smaller classes in disadvantaged primary schools and the roll-out of school completion and home-school-community liaison services to more schools. My Department's approach to tackling disadvantage also reflects an awareness of the importance of the youth sector in providing positive recreational opportunities for young people in disadvantaged areas. More than €45 million will be spent on this area in 2006.

I am also conscious of the value of Youthreach and VTOS programmes in providing second chance opportunities and have signalled my commitment to developing the sector by providing increased non-pay funding in 2006. The allocation for third level student support schemes has increased by €20 million to nearly €230 million in 2006. The increases being provided for services for children with special educational needs and those from disadvantaged areas will ensure we will target extra supports at those who need them most.

We are making progress on a number of issues of benefit to the entire school community. To name but a few, we are improving staffing levels in our primary schools, developing a system of standardised testing at primary level and putting in place specific measures to promote positive behaviour at second level. Next September there will be 4,000 more teachers in our primary schools than in 2002. The past few years have seen the biggest expansion in teacher numbers in our schools since the introduction of free post-primary education. The majority of these extra staff have rightly been targeted at providing extra support for pupils with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas. With those priorities having been addressed, the Estimates provide for even more teachers specifically to reduce class sizes in the next school year. Furthermore, the Minister for Finance has also committed to funding another reduction in class sizes in the following year.

As important as the number of teachers is, the quality of training they receive and the way in which they work are just as crucial if extra staff are to translate into better outcomes for children. The importance I attach to giving teachers the best possible training throughout their careers is evident from the fact that with the increased funding for professional development this year, we will have increased spending, by 35% in just two years, to almost €27 million.

In addition to improving the quality of teaching in our schools, it is vital to have the right systems in place to evaluate outcomes for children. One development that has great potential to help teachers identify children who need extra help, to give parents better information on their children's learning and to inform policy decisions at national level is the introduction of a national system of standardised testing, on which key groundwork is being done in the current year, underpinned by an allocation of €3 million for this purpose in 2006. Provision has also been made in the Estimates for the introduction of an employee assistance service and the further development of the Teaching Council as important supports for teachers as individuals and the profession as a whole.

Funding has been provided to implement recommendations of the task force on student behaviour. Not only did I secure extra funding in the Estimates to deal with this issue but I did so in advance of knowing what the recommendations would be. This meant that very shortly after receiving the report of the task force I was able to set out an implementation plan which includes measures such as the establishment of a new behavioural support service at national level, the availability of behaviour support classrooms for schools experiencing significant difficulties and the amendment of legislation relating to suspensions and expulsions. My commitment to promoting positive behaviour is firm but I understand the complexities of the issue. The actions I have set out are balanced, proportionate and carefully considered. They are in tune with the holistic manner in which the task force made its recommendations, stressing that a host of factors were important in creating a positive environment. They will ensure we will promote positive behaviour and can deal with problems where they occur in a rational and appropriate way.

Important work is being done in a wide range of areas to ensure all our children and young people can reach their full potential at school. We are investing in our school buildings and meeting the day-to-day costs of our schools. We are providing extra targeted support for children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas. We are also prioritising measures to promote effective teaching and leadership at school level. All of this work is aimed at ensuring every young person, whatever his or her interests or abilities, can make the most of the opportunities available to him or her at school.

An increasing number of young people are availing of opportunities at third level and in the higher education sector. Higher Education Authority data published earlier this year showed the third level participation rate had increased from 44% of all 17 to 19 year olds in 1998 to 54% in 2004. What gave me most satisfaction was the substantial increase in areas such as Finglas, Ballymun and Darndale where the number of young people making it to college doubled in just a six-year period. The huge investment made in expanding the number of places available at third level and supporting initiatives to enable young people from disadvantaged areas to take them up is making a difference.

As well as the contribution of the education system to promoting greater social inclusion through increased opportunities, it also has a major role to play in ensuring future Governments will have the money they will need to fund public services many years from now. The capacity of our higher education system to train skilled graduates and provide the research needed to underpin our future economic success is crucial in that regard. The announcement in the budget of €300 million in the next five years for the new strategic innovation fund will incentivise reform and promote greater collaboration to ensure we can build on the collective strengths of all of our higher education institutions.

The significance the Government attaches to building Ireland's research capacity to secure high skill jobs into the future is evident from the 17% increase in dedicated research and development funding under the education Vote in 2006, from €69 million to €81 million. This will include funding for the start-up of cycle 4 of the programme of research in third level institutions. It also provides for further expansion in the activities of the two research councils. In the past six years more than €600 million has been awarded under the programme which has transformed the Irish research landscape. Through the quality of the people and facilities now in place, we have created the basis for world class Irish research performance. The national research plan being developed is setting an ambitious programme for the future.

This is a brief summary of the main elements of my Department's Estimates for 2006. The 10% increase in expenditure will allow me, among other matters, to improve our school buildings, employ more teachers, put in place new measures to promote positive student behaviour at second level and boost the capacity of our third level system, both at undergraduate level and in terms of research production. The education Estimates provide clear evidence of the Government's commitment to investment in education for the benefit of the nation and the individual. I commend them to the committee and will be happy to respond to any questions members may have.

Ms O’Sullivan

I welcome the Minister and her officials. While the 10% increase in expenditure is welcome, Ireland remains behind its neighbours in the European Union and OECD in terms of the percentage of our national wealth spent on education. We could spend much more in an effective manner.

The Minister referred to implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act. Will she clarify the matter a little more? There are many difficulties for schools with the system for meeting special needs, particularly where a school has a high incidence of special needs and the weighted model does not suit it. There are many schools in disadvantaged areas where the incidence of special needs does not correlate with the average. A number of schools have lost out as a result. If the Act was implemented, those schools would have a right to seek individual assessments.

Some schools must go to the HSE to seek certain types of assessments, for example, speech, language and other needs assessments. They are put on waiting lists with the others on waiting lists for HSE services. I have with me a letter from the principal in a school in my constituency. It states it is almost impossible to obtain an assessment for low incidence disabilities such as autism or ADHD as these assessments must be carried out by the child and adolescent mental health service which is funded and managed by the HSE. It is also under-resourced. The school principal goes on to describe the difficulties in seeking assessments. If the Act was implemented, this process would be much easier because there are measures in the Act to ensure co-operation between the bodies involved.

Are special educational needs organisers, SENOs, operating to a specific budget? If they encounter need that is greater in one area than another, are they limited in what they can allocate to a child, for example, if there are many children in a particular school with special needs who need extra SNAs and so forth? A school principal told me that the school will probably be told it has a certain number of SNAs and that it should be enough by spreading them around among the children concerned. Can the Minister give an assurance there is no overall budget cap that stops SENOs from allocating resources where they are needed?

With regard to school buildings, is there a roll-over of money not spent in the past year? I am anxious to ensure we are not losing money for schools buildings and that the unspent allocation from the past year will be spent in addition to the allocation for the current year.

I have a couple of questions about disadvantage and DEIS. I received a query about the criteria applied. I am aware we are discussing the Vote but the criteria form a big part of it. Pupil achievement and retention are used as primary indicators of disadvantage. If a school works hard to retain students, will it be punished in some way under DEIS? The argument put to me is that retention is not a primary indicator of disadvantage. The primary indicators such as number of students with medical cards and so forth are well established. Will the Minister reconsider that indicator? Where a school had disadvantaged status and would have planned ahead on the basis of that status but for some reason has not been invited to participate in DEIS, what should it do? There is an appeals system but schools argue that they have planned on the basis of this status and that it could now be removed.

I wish to mention a school that has been in the news in the past day or two. As we are discussing finance, I raise it in that context. Money was spent on the school in recent years to bring it to a certain level. This followed a visit to it by the Minister's predecessor. Where public money is spent on a school and its patrons then decide to close it, should the Department not have a role and be able to intervene? It invested in the school in question. It made the judgment that it had a future and, on that basis, gave it money in the recent past. It appears, however, that the patron has the sole right to decide that it should be closed.

The Minister probably does not wish to comment on the general situation but perhaps she would comment on the public investment aspect and, given the short timeframe given to the parents, the difficulty they will have in securing alternative places. It is only fair to give them adequate time to secure alternative places. Since there was investment in the school and it is surrounded by a growing community, there should be some role for the Department and the Minister in the decision about St. Michael's in Inchicore.

With regard to the task force on student behaviour, I have a particular interest in alternative provision for young children and would prefer that the alternative was provided before the child gets into trouble in school. In other words, one can see that some children might not fit into school and that there should be provision in advance of them being kicked out rather than treating them as failures and then putting them somewhere else. Will the Minister provide funding for alternative provision, particularly the youth encounter projects which work well, Youthreach and other alternatives? Does she intend to introduce new ones?

Subhead B2 relates to transport services. We welcome the fact that there is an increase in funding and I assume it will be used to deal with issues such as three for two seating, seatbelts and so forth. Will the Minister clarify this? Will she also clarify if the Department is on target with regard to the various issues that arose in the context of the appalling tragedies involving school buses?

Subhead B12 refers to Teangalaíochta Éireann. I am aware that it has been wound up but perhaps the Minister will comment briefly on why there is less than she expected.

Subhead B16 relates to international centres. The Minister appeared in the media with regard to the fact that some schools are bringing foreign students to this country and sending them to ordinary, publicly funded second level schools. However, they are getting fees from the students concerned. Has the Minister been able to clarify this issue and protect the public purse with regard to private profiteering through the publicly funded education system?

Subhead C5 relates to caretakers. I took note of it in the context of St. Michael's school in Inchicore. I gather one of the issues concerns the caretaker; the other relates to the principal having to return to teaching. Does the Minister have flexibility to deal with a special case, for example, where there is an obvious need for a caretaker, even though it falls outside the normal numbers in the school? Is there flexibility in providing funding for caretakers? Unfortunately, there is vandalism in some schools and the size of a school is not always relevant to the problems experienced and the need for a caretaker.

Subhead D2 relates to grants to secondary schools and authorities, as well as other grants and services in respect of secondary schools. Why is it so much higher? Perhaps it is just an increase in capitation but I wish to have that figure in subhead D2 clarified.

Mr. English

I welcome the 10% increase in expenditure which is wonderful. As the Minister said, successive Governments did not invest fully in education. They did not always have a chance to do so, although this Government is lucky to have had that chance. We are lucky that the Minister is willing to force that issue and push for the money at that level. I compliment her on achieving those increases. There has been an opportunity in recent years to spend money on education, thus catching up on the previous lack of investment and the provision of extra facilities.

As regards the schools building budget, I acknowledge that construction costs have risen rapidly in recent years, so we are not getting as much for our money as heretofore. That is an important point concerning funding.

The devolved grant scheme is working well and I compliment those responsible for it. For a long time quite a number of schools had no hope of having a new premises provided, but they are now being developed by the money that is on offer. Such schools are thus better able to serve their communities. I ask the Minister to review schools in some areas for which extra money is being provided through the overall budget.

Most schools of which I am aware seem to be have been left somewhat short of funding. I know the theory is to leave them short of some money which must then be raised locally but, even so, the amount of money being allocated to such schools could be increased by 10% or 15% to make the system more fair. Having examined many schools in Meath, my own reading of the situation is that the current system puts too much pressure on schools to raise the money that is needed. It is all right to expect a school to come up with €150,000 or €200,000 towards construction costs where that work may be done more cheaply, but it is tougher when schools are faced with a bill for €300,000 or €350,000. Not many schools can cope with such costs because the pressure is put on parents to raise the funds. These are the same parents who must find money every year to send their children to school in the first place. We are supposed to have free education but we do not. On top of all the other costs, it still costs approximately €1,000 per year to send a child to primary school, when one considers extra curricular activities, computers and physical education. We should not fool ourselves as to the additional costs involved, which are not sufficiently tackled in these Estimates.

Apart from funding to build a new school or add extra classrooms to an existing building, many schools are still organising fund-raising events just to meet annual running costs. When will we get away from that situation? Parents are under enough pressure from the cost of living without having to organise a table quiz every second week just to run their school. Recently I saw a flyer that was sent out by a school in Dublin asking parents to increase their annual subscription by about 30%. The figure was outrageous and put pressure on parents just to fund the school's running costs.

It is all very well citing figures such as €7.9 billion but we must realise that parents are being asked for more money every day. Such financial demands amount to another tax and hide the real cost of education. We do not seem to mention that fact often enough in trying to tackle the situation. I realise it is on our work list this year but we now have a chance to examine the situation to see if education is being made more affordable. While everyone can access education in nicer buildings, it is getting more expensive by the day.

Educational funding, including capitation grants, has risen but the overall costs involved are very significant so the increases do not reflect the higher day-to-day expenses involved. I note the special increase in funding for management bodies at primary level, but does that include boards of management? When those representatives attended this committee they sought technical support and advice. Running schools has become a complicated business and boards of management face many responsibilities. Parents make it clear to us that they do not feel they are always kept up to date on such matters. They feel that the school principal and chairman of the board of management are at an advantage over the parents. Consequently, they are seeking more help and advice in that regard, including legal advice. For every five or six schools, the Department should fund someone to advise boards of management to keep them up to date on current developments. There may be an easier way to do it but it should not cost much. We should find some way of meeting their demands in this regard.

I recognise that the Department of Education and Science is moving faster to provide schools in new areas but there are many areas that still require new schools, including my own town of Navan which has three primary schools in temporary accommodation. They will be in that position for a long time to come. The situation is moving along but there are substantial costs involved in setting up a new school. Schools in swiftly developing areas of population face more costs than an ordinary school that may not have such an increased intake of new pupils. The number of new pupils in some areas can amount to the equivalent of a new school each year.

Capitation grants do not reflect the growth of new schools where the population is increasing rapidly. Extra facilities, including accommodation, are required each September to cope with the growth in the number of new students. It is not like an ordinary school which may need one new classroom per year. I am not sure how we can address that difficulty but it should be examined under these Estimates.

I accept that extra help has been provided for children with special educational needs. As Deputy O'Sullivan has said, I would like to see greater co-ordination between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Children. Some children with special needs seem to get caught in the middle, are not looked after and do not get their tests done in time. Somebody must take responsibility for this. Each Department is doing more than ever before but there are still many areas in which people with special needs miss out. They have to fight hard to get the necessary help from various Departments. Perhaps a special budget could be set aside to help people who have children with special needs in order to get the services they require. We should cut through all the red tape so decisions can be taken speedily to give them the necessary assistance.

The Minister said she was conscious of the value of Youthreach and other alternatives that exists outside mainstream education. While we acknowledge the excellent work that is being done by Youthreach and other programmes, they are still only pilot schemes. That work should be rewarded and supported further because Youthreach has the worst facilities I have ever seen. I visited seven or eight different Youthreach projects in recent years and I was ashamed of the facilities they are obliged to use. If we value their work so much let us upgrade their facilities under the schools building programme.

Many Youthreach projects are stuck in old VEC buildings or other school premises which are not good enough. How can we say we value their work if they are stuck in the corner of a building in a poor condition? The people who use those facilities need to be encouraged into the education system and proper facilities would help them considerably.

I can see no provision in the Estimates for activities, including physical education, at all levels of education. Taking Youthreach as an example, the insurance costs involved in taking a group for horse-riding or other sporting activities are very high. Schools are now cancelling such activities, which were beneficial to pupils, because of the extra insurance costs involved. I would like to see that matter being addressed by the Minister, although it does not seem to have been.

Money has been provided for youth projects but last year a lot money for that area was not spent. It has been reallocated for this year so I hope there will be a drive to allocate that funding. I accept that it is not the Minister's responsibility but that of her colleague. Nonetheless, we want to see a real drive towards money being spent on youth projects. We want to see results from that, rather than just reading newspaper headlines about the extra money that is being spent. It should be invested in getting results on the ground.

It has been announced that an extra 800 new teachers will graduate this year. The aim now is to have a class size of 15 which is ridiculous. There is no need to have so few children in a class. Is the Minister aiming for that number eventually? We would not be able to manage classes of that size. A class of 20 or 25 is satisfactory. While there will be enough teachers trained are there enough classrooms in the building programme to cater for the target class size?

I am totally against two class levels operating in the one classroom. I have seen this from both sides, there were 44 in my class in primary school and I have been in a classroom shared by two classes. Pupils and parents say it is worse to have classes mixed together than to have large classes. What research has been done on this issue?

Are our teachers, especially those at secondary level, being as well trained and equipped as primary school teachers to handle disciplinary matters in classrooms? While education has advanced significantly in the past ten or 15 years, has the H.Dip. course moved in line with that and is there money allocated to review that situation? Does the Minister agree that we need to reconsider the H. Dip. to include teachers' management of behavioural problems in class? Teachers do not receive enough ongoing training to handle bad behaviour. We can set out aims for standards of discipline here but at school level different teachers need to implement them and need to be equipped to the highest standards to do so.

Many people have gained access to third level colleges over recent years who would not have done so previously. Those in the middle group, who miss out on grants or receive half a grant, are under severe pressure to fund themselves through third level colleges. Many work to fund their courses. While I do not have a problem with that there is too much pressure on them.

The grant system is out of date. A review is needed to cover the way people are assessed on their parents' income when they are under 23. I know a woman of 20 who has two children and is living in her own house but had to be assessed according to her parents' income to go to college. Can we not move on and change that system? We should use this review of the Estimates to get things changed.

The grants are not high enough to match the rising costs of accommodation and so on. The Minister will tell me that many students squander their money but there are many who need extra help and do not receive it. The wrong people often get the money, which is a shame. We should acknowledge other people who need it.

How much money is being put into re-assessing the curriculum and re-examining the pressures on young people? Like us, young people get up at 7 a.m. to get the bus to school and do not return home until 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. after a full day in school. In addition, they have four or five hours of study or homework to do that night and on top of that there is the pressure of exams, including the junior and leaving certificates. We ask young people to do more than we ask adults to do.

It is time to look at the curriculum to see how we can make it less academic, provide a broader education, and take pressure off people. Perhaps exams could be held over different semesters. Young people have behavioural and other problems which I will not discuss today because they are under a great deal of pressure. We could reduce the pressure in the educational system, without devaluing it because it is held in high esteem around the world.

There are high costs involved in doing part-time courses to retrain or pursue a distance learning course, and very little support or grants for them. Some local enterprise boards provide courses in the VECs at a certain level but if one wants to retrain in accounting or law, or some subject that is not available as a six-month course locally, it is difficult and costs thousands of euro. One may get tax relief on fees for such a course if one earns enough. Many people want to retrain and do new courses but cannot do so because the cost is too high. Many of the courses are provided at private colleges and so on but perhaps we need to consider adjustments to facilitate people who want to return to education.

We need to do as much as we can and more to re-educate single mothers and bring them back into the workforce. That will help them and their children. Many of them tell their public representatives they are under pressure to get to a course, or they lack the encouragement or self-esteem to chase up a course. It is our duty to support them. I know a single parent who has enrolled in a child care course for which she has received some money. She is due to complete the course in four months and is now homeless. She has been told that unless she leaves the course and gives up the money she receives to do it, she will not get rent allowance.

I do not blame the Department of Education and Science for that but it is a problem. Departments need to work together to facilitate someone in that situation. No matter what telephone calls we make we cannot change the system to enable her to get rent allowance and continue her course. Can anyone imagine an official of this State telling someone to leave a course in order to get rent allowance? This is the only chance this person has to retrain and make something good of her life but it could be taken away from her. When allocating money to budgets we should make changes where they are needed.

Mr. Gogarty

I received a telephone call today from a lady in Galway who, together with her husband, wants to return to third level education but she pointed out an anomaly which I shall raise by way of a parliamentary question. Other committee members may have received the same call.

The threshold of €35,000 applies equally to single people and to couples, which discriminates against married couples seeking to return to education at the same time. Those who are earning, and can afford to do so, must contribute some of the cost themselves. When we encourage people to upskill to benefit the economy and the taxpayer, some more flexible system should be devised. It is not necessarily all the responsibility of the Minister for Education and Science but it is in part.

The Minister constantly touts as a success the achievements in education for children with special needs. I congratulate her on this work. We have, however, received feedback from some of the schools involved in respect of the special educational needs organisers to the effect that possibly they should receive more training. Some say that the special educational needs officers are learning within the schools rather than providing assistance to the schools.

That does not relate to the budget issue under discussion today. The Minister can say that the 10% of €7.9 billion spent in 2006 is a significant increase but as Deputy O'Sullivan pointed out, we are below the OECD and EU averages in this respect and need to increase that allocation. The major flaw in the Government is lack of vision. It is afraid to take the bull by the horns and make real changes. The Minister should champion education more and fight passionately for additional investment rather than vociferously defending the status quo. A 10% increase in investment is all very well, but we need higher than the EU average to make any real impact.

The Minister and the Minister of State have often said in response to parliamentary questions or in Dáil statements that we have an either/or situation: we can have a welcome investment in special needs but no reduction in class sizes; a strategic innovation fund but no investment in further or adult education; or an extra €12 million for operating costs for national schools but less than €1 million of an increase for education welfare officers. I could give more of these examples.

The education welfare board is a particularly good example. We could easily fill 1,000 classrooms with the number of children who miss more than 40 days of school per year. We have checked the figures with the National Education Welfare Board and discovered that €28 million would allow for the full complement of education welfare officers.

However, the board has been told to make do with €8 million. The last two submissions made by the board were revised downwards. Having originally sought €25 million, when it realised it would not get that amount it sought less. It has received €8 million and been told to make do with that amount. It is nowhere near a full complement of officers and feedback indicates that the officers find their workload a strain and difficult to complete. When we seek increased funding in the Dáil for education welfare officers, we are asked what areas we would like to be cut instead. This is voodoo economics.

The money is available. Each year we find there is money available at the beginning of January and this money should be used. If money is not provided, the taxpayer will bear the cost in the long run. Studies, as far back as the High-Scope Perry pre-school study, have shown that investment saves money in the long run. The High-Scope Perry pre-school study showed that for every euro invested in targeted education projects, we save the investor much more than the cost, approximately €17 for every €1. Moving up the chain the value of the saving might not be as high, but it would certainly be a saving of €2 for every €1 spent, which is a long-term benefit. Therefore, targeted increased funding in the education system is the Minister's most important task.

As I said earlier, we are close to the bottom of the OECD and EU tables in terms of education funding. The Green Party pledged at its Ard Fheis to increase existing expenditure levels by an additional €1 billion. This is a conservative figure that will barely bring Ireland above the EU average, but the Green Party is at least pushing for that improvement. We need the Minister to push for this at Cabinet level rather than have her try to defend the indefensible and offer an either-or scenario.

The Government should be criticised for not having the vision to fund education up front in order to recoup its expenditure in other ways over the medium term. For example, every €1 not invested in children, will cost communities and society in other ways. Some children will end up incarcerated where it costs a significant amount to keep the child in a juvenile detention centre or prison. It also costs society when a person does not earn as much as he or she could because of leaving school early and when they are in low-paid jobs Revenue loses out because taxes are not as high as they could be.

Whether society loses out by having to pay social welfare, support people in prison or through lower tax receipts, it all costs taxpayers money. Given the promise of tax cuts from the Progressive Democrats at the weekend, we could be facing a scenario where we have a choice between investing in education from existing revenues where possible, thereby creating future savings for taxpayers, or cutting taxes now, which will eventually bring further costs on us.

In light of the Easter Proclamation, we need to show a serious commitment to cherishing our children equally. The Department of Education and Science does not have all the solutions, but it has some. Education welfare officers can examine problems, but they do not always have the resources to tackle the root cause of social deprivation. However, if there were more of them, they could identify those children who are missing school and find a way to tackle the problem. We need investment in education and a vision that can save those at risk.

Let us be cynical about this. People vote with their pockets. If we put forward and invest in a ten-year plan that would go beyond the coming and the next election and benefit society and save expense for taxpayers over that period, the people would vote for that common sense approach to funding education. There would be no need then to shy away from investment in education because of the fear that people would have to pay for it before the next election. We need to adopt a tough ten-year, post-election strategy.

Mr. Crowe

I welcome the Minister and her officials to this committee. It is important to discuss the Estimates and examine where the money is being spent. The Minister spoke about the advances made and I agree there have been advances in some areas. However, the system is still rife with inequities that are not being tackled quickly enough. We are in an economic boom period that may not last forever and it is important to examine how the money is spent and redistribute the wealth for the benefit of the majority.

It is important, post the 1916 commemorations, that we pursue the concept of cherishing all the children of the nation equally and work towards building that type of society. We still have a situation where one fifth of children from disadvantaged backgrounds leave school without qualifications. These children, many of them with parents from similar backgrounds, will end up in dead-end or low-skilled jobs. Unfortunately, the system replicates this situation and many of these families who pay tax contribute to the third level education of children from well-off families.

The system is like an inverted pyramid in terms of the amount of money spent. At the bottom of the pile is pre-primary, followed by primary, secondary and third level where the bulk of the money is spent. If we are serious about bringing about greater equity in society, we need to examine and invest in the pre-primary area.

We also need to examine the question of State responsibility. At present, the State only accepts responsibility for children from six years of age. Perhaps we should consider reducing the age and including younger children. International best practice suggests that pre-primary level children advance more if they enter the system early and perhaps this is where something should be done. Currently these children are not part of any real structure and their education is ad hoc. They are put into crèches but there is no investment in education in these crèches. Perhaps we should invest more in this area. We should reconsider the State’s responsibility in this area and reduce the age limit of children for which it is responsible.

A previous speaker spoke about the situation in Inchicore. The situation there highlights the current problems. Inchicore is an area where money should be invested to create regeneration, yet the school is being closed. The religious institutions must hand over some properties under the terms of the redress scheme. Is the school in Inchicore part of that scheme or is there a possibility that it will be handed over to the Department? Money is being spent in the wrong place with regard to education. We need to review our priorities and to spend more money on the pre-school area.

As regards children with special needs, I am aware of a school in County Donegal where children with special needs are being taught in an adult toilet. This puts it into context. We talk about the great advances, yet children are still experiencing those conditions. I know of schools in my constituency where children have spent their entire school life in prefabs, yet this is one of the richest countries per capita in the world. It is down to where we believe the money should be spent.

The National Educational Welfare Board was referred to by a previous speaker. As the board is statutorily obliged to carry out its duties, is the Minister satisfied it has sufficient funding? Deputy Gogarty referred to the level of funding. I am informed the board does not have the necessary funding to carry out its role under the Act.

Significantly more investment is required in education for children of the Traveller community. A total of 80% of 12 to 15 year old Traveller children do not attend post-primary school. The census of 2002 showed that over 63% of Traveller children under the age of 15 had left school. The Department of Education and Science expenditure in 2003-04 showed that the least expenditure per pupil was at primary level, with €5,000 being spent per student. To tackle disadvantage and increase the likelihood of a child progressing to third level, spending per primary school child should not lag behind expenditure at second and third levels.

The most recent ESRI report found that students from poorer backgrounds are still hugely under-represented at third level colleges. The children of doctors and large farmers, for example, go on to third level education while few children from low skills backgrounds or children of semi-skilled workers go on to third level. A total of 90% of leaving certificate students from prosperous areas go on to third level education while the figure is 20% in poorer areas and lower again for those from a low skills background.

The Dublin Economic Workshop presentation of 2004 stated that Ireland needs to increase higher education spending by 1% of gross domestic product to bring it in line with the OECD average. I refer to the vocational training opportunities scheme and the National Adult Literacy Association submission. What action will the Minister take as a result of that submission? People from low income backgrounds attend VTOS courses and are given a food allowance of 60 cent per day. The Minister might explain what food can be bought for 60 cent a day.

In many European countries, educational psychologists are expected to cover an average of 1,000 students whereas in Ireland the National Educational Psychological Service must cover 6,000 students. There are only 121 educational psychologists serving the country's 3,284 schools.

The issue of special needs education was raised in previous discussions with groups. The transfer of children from primary to second level should be seamless but this is not the case. The special needs equipment should move with the child in some cases. There is a huge amount of work to be done in this area. I question the fact that a child with severe learning difficulties only has access to a resource teacher for a maximum of five hours a week. This is not sufficient. The school book rental scheme has a small budget allocated under DEIS and this needs to be increased to ensure more school book rental schemes are available.

The subject of discipline was raised at the teachers' conferences. I am aware of an incident in my area which highlights how teachers feel let down. A teacher who was pregnant was among a number of teachers attacked with a petrol bomb when leaving the school. The Garda helicopter was called in. Teachers' cars were damaged as part of the attack. The person responsible had previously been a pupil at the school. It highlights the problems for teachers in that school. I am concerned that many of those teachers will move on because they will not have to endure the same grief in another school and for the same pay. The system will make them feel more worthwhile. The damage to the cars was not covered by the school insurance scheme.

We are not doing well with language teaching. We now have many children from different countries. The Minister cautioned the need to avoid the establishment of ghettos but unfortunately many of the ghettos are already established as people from other countries move into transitional housing in different areas. As a result some schools are bearing an unfair burden with the numbers of newcomer children. It is difficult for a teacher to communicate to a class of more than 30 children of varying abilities and with a varying knowledge of English. A cap is currently placed on the amount of English language supports and the language support teaching posts are not sanctioned on a permanent basis. One school in my area has an average of 30% to 40% of newcomer children in each class where average class size is 30 children per teacher. I know the Minister will reply that she is considering possible educational support for those children and their families but I question when those supports will be provided for newcomer children in particular.

The positive aspects of having newcomer children must be reflected in the community and it is one of the big challenges facing the education system in many parts of the country. Newcomers have skills but their language skills are poor in many cases. We need to support them and their children and also support the other children in those classes. Extra supports will be needed for those children in those schools.

The Minister talked about looking at schools on the edge of disadvantage and areas designated as disadvantaged. When will those proposals be firmed up and when will action be taken to redesignate many of those schools to allow for support?

Ms O’Sullivan

I refer to page 13 of the briefing document, subhead D8, No. 4, the National Adult Learning Council, for which a sum of money is provided. Does this mean the National Adult Learning Council will be set up? It was to be set up and this was put in abeyance. I note a figure of zero for 2005 and a figure of €100,000 for 2006.

On page 15, subhead E4, the system seems to have changed. The free fees initiative and targeted programmes are now a separate accounting figure whereas previously they were included with the money given to the various higher education institutions. Is my reading correct?

Ms Hanafin

Where is that stated?

Ms O’Sullivan

On page 15, subhead E4. It appears that in 2005 each of the universities and institutes of higher education was given a grant that included a provision for the free fees. It now appears they are dealt with separately in No. 12. There appears to be a change in accounting practice.

Ms Hanafin

I thank members for their interest in such a wide range of topics. I will address as many of them as I can. On buildings, there was no carryover as all the money was spent last year. Not only that, we spent €6 million more than the amount allocated for first and second level.

Ms O’Sullivan

That is welcome.

Ms Hanafin

Had there been an underspend, an extra €50 million could have been carried forward to this year.

I agree with Deputy English that the devolved grants scheme is working very well and enables people to get value for money locally. When they see the local school is paying, local builders are much more generous than when they see the Department of Education and Science coming to them. If a school believes it needs to raise a large sum of money that it is not able to raise, it should not avail of the devolved scheme as it may not suit everybody. Some schools have cut their cloth to suit their measure, while others have decided they want to build the Taj Mahal while they have the opportunity. We have twice increased the amount of money to be given under the devolved scheme. The increase this year is particularly substantial, bearing mind that some schools would have had site costs or planning conditions imposed which could not have been foreseen in advance.

Mr. English

It is not really an option not to take it. It should be clarified that if they do not take it, they will not go back in the queue for the next seven or eight years, which is their fear.

Ms Hanafin

Some schools would be jumping the queue. The scheme is working extremely well. Communities have contributed. It has also been a good exercise for them. It is not the intention that communities should feel under pressure to raise a certain amount of money. If that is the case, they should not avail of a particular scheme.

Mr. English

I accept that is the intention. However, some of them feel under pressure to do so.

Ms Hanafin

As more people are looking for it than availing of it, it is working well.

The other question on buildings was related to the reduction in class sizes and whether we would have a classroom for every teacher. There may or may not be. Obviously, we can avail of the permanent initiative, another of the devolved schemes, whereby schools can apply for and receive €120,000 to build a classroom. Many have done so. However, there may be others, developing schools, which do not have full accommodation coming on stream. Any school that does not want the extra teacher need not take that teacher. However, I suspect they will. I am sure they will be imaginative in how they work in the classroom. Many of our schools were built to accommodate fewer people. This includes not only additional teachers as a result of reducing class sizes, but also resource teachers. Trying to deal with all 4,000 and ensure they will all benefit may take time. However, we hope to work as quickly as we possible can.

Mr. English

The question was more whether the Department of Education and Science had a particular target for class sizes. It might not be practicable to reach it in terms of buildings.

Ms Hanafin

Every reduction in class sizes puts pressure on the building programme.

Deputy English also raised the issue of the split class. If he wanted to change this as a policy, he would end up closing more than half the schools in the country which have four or fewer teachers. This means that with eight classes in a primary school, more than half have two classes combined.

Mr. English

I accept that. The point I am making is that, where possible, it should not be done.

Ms Hanafin

Some schools, particularly those in Dublin, would rather have a large class than to have two classes, which does nothing to reduce class size. When tackled on the matter, they often state they would much rather have 33 in a class than to split fourth and fifth classes. This issue is skewing some class figures. When it is pointed out to a school that it only has 23 pupils in one class and 33 in another, it claims it does not want to split them when it has the allocation to allow it to be done. I am not sure how common it is, but some schools are allocating a mainstream class teacher as solely the art teacher, the IT resource teacher or administrative vice-principal. These teachers are allocated for mainstream classroom teaching purposes and should not be used for anything else. It is one of the issues on which we will need to keep an eye.

On special needs, members should bear in mind that SENOs represent a new initiative and have only been in place for a few months. It will take time for them to bed down, for schools to get to know them and them to get to know schools. They are not governed by a budget in determining what a school needs. However, they are governed by needs and responding to them. It can happen that a special needs assistant is already in a classroom and rather than having two special needs assistants in one classroom, he or she can cover the care needs of a child. It is rare to end up with more than one child in a classroom with a specially assigned adult. There is a possibility of sharing the resource. They tend to consider the whole-school environment. It is not a case of having a budget which must be adhered to. The proof of this is that we now have 7,500 special needs assistants. We only had 300 a few years ago.

There is a major challenge in the implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, to which we are totally committed. The Special Education Council is required to report back to me in October with an implementation plan for the Act, showing how it can be rolled out over five years. The council has commissioned research by Dr. Eileen Winter from Queens University to outline the resource implications for implementation. It will be a challenge for schools, teachers and others. It will take us into the realm of individual education plans and the appeals process. Work is progressing on all these issues.

Ms O’Sullivan

Is there consultation with the HSE? There is considerable overlap with regard to specialists.

Ms Hanafin

The Deputy is correct. SENOs will have a role in providing a link between parents and the HSE. Parents are now telling me that the education needs of their children are being addressed. However, there are still difficulties in accessing therapies such as speech therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy. A substantial number of additional new graduates, particularly in speech therapy, will come from the colleges this year and next. This should help supply. The HSE is involved in an active campaign to recruit. The problem lies with a shortage of therapists to provide the service. Better co-ordination is the intention. In this regard, the SENO will be able to assist. Special educational needs continue to be a priority.

In addition, we should not forget special schools which do very valuable work. We need to support them in order that they can become centres of excellence for others. With parents placing the emphasis on mainstream schooling, those involved in special schools may feel their role is being undermined, which is not the case. Their role needs to be supported even more as they do tremendous work.

On resource teaching and the provision of learning support in schools, Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned disadvantaged areas. The allocation for disadvantaged schools is made on a 1:80 basis, which is considerably more generous than the general allocation and recognises the particular need identified.

The level of queries, etc., is very small compared with what it was before the scheme was introduced. Teachers are now finding that they can automatically respond to the needs of children. We have said we will review it again after it has been in operation for three years to see how the allocation is working. I find that schools are generally quite satisfied. Small schools benefitted substantially from the manner in which the allocations were made last year because their special circumstances were recognised.

I would like to speak about the DEIS programme. I was asked about schools which were designated as disadvantaged, but no longer have that designation. It is to everyone's credit if an area is no longer deemed to be disadvantaged. We have talked about this at length, for example on Question Time in the Dáil. I do not doubt that there are schools in disadvantaged areas which are no longer officially deemed as such. Similarly, some schools are now finding that they are in areas which have been deemed to be disadvantaged. We have to ensure we are targeting the right people. The list of schools participating in the DEIS programme was drawn up entirely on the basis of the information supplied by the schools. The quality check was done by the Educational Research Centre. The process, which was absolutely independent and objective, was not interfered with in any way at any level. It was based on the information made available by the schools.

Ms O’Sullivan

I am not saying it was not done properly. I have spoken to people who have questioned the idea of using retention as a criterion. Some schools are retaining pupils by working really hard. That does not mean they no longer have the original disadvantage.

Ms Hanafin

I accept that some schools which continue to have a level of socioeconomic disadvantage do not have the same level of it as they once had. The Government has given everybody a commitment that there will be absolutely no change for the coming school year. Schools will continue to get supports thereafter, based on their levels of socioeconomic disadvantage. I am not in the business of penalising schools which are doing a good job.

Ms O’Sullivan

The point I am making is that the retention of children in a school does not have any bearing on whether the school can be said to be disadvantaged.

Ms Hanafin

I understand what the Deputy is saying.

Ms O’Sullivan

It should not be a basic criterion. It cannot be said that schools which do not retain children are necessarily more disadvantaged than schools which succeed in retaining children.

Ms Hanafin

The criterion mentioned by the Deputy was one of six criteria which were considered on a weighted basis. I remind the Deputy that we are talking about educational disadvantage. People from certain counties tell me that everyone in the locality is very poor because the local factories have closed down, or because they are living in isolated areas. There can be a strong sense of the value of education in such areas, however. The counties which supply the highest proportions of their students to third level education are Mayo and Leitrim. People from those counties are often the first to argue that they are isolated and rural, but that does not mean they are educationally disadvantaged. The criterion in question is just one of six fairly balanced criteria, which included large families, single families, local authority housing, medical cards and the number of Travellers. There is a review system in respect of schools which feel their forms were not read properly or, in the cases of some schools, were not filled in properly. That is being looked at as well.

Deputy Crowe asked when the proposals in the disadvantage report will start to be brought into force. That process has already commenced. Schools which qualify for the 20:1 ratio in junior classes and the 24:1 ratio in senior classes have been told they can recruit teachers. Schools which have been given administrative principals on more generous rates than more regular schools have also been told they can recruit. The 21 schools which will benefit from the new 80:1 ratio in respect of resource teaching are being told about that this week. The process has already started. Additional funding has already been given to schools for literacy programmes, etc., under the school completion programme. The home-school-community liaison programme will be rolled out over the next year as well. It is not one of the reports that sits on the shelf.

I would like to speak about St. Michael's school in Inchicore, which was mentioned by some Deputies. I am disappointed and annoyed by the manner in which this matter has been dealt with by the trustees. No advance notice of their decision was given to the students, parents, teachers or the Department. I am not aware of any other circumstances in which a school was shut down at such short notice.

We are all aware of schools which have been phased out. People in local communities are usually given advance notice of such closures so they can find places for their children. I am not aware of any school that has been shut so quickly. It is obvious that St. Michael's school, which had 63 children last year, is disadvantaged and therefore enjoys all the benefits of the Department's various disadvantage programmes. I do not know how the trustees reached their decision, of which the Department has not yet been informed, but it cannot have been based on staffing problems because the school was well staffed by eight teachers and six and a half special needs assistants last year.

Deputy O'Sullivan has noted the capital investment that was made in the school, which was recognised as a school in need of support and was getting that support. The trustees of the school have a real obligation to help the students in question to find places and to work in the local community. The Department and the National Educational Welfare Board will ensure, naturally, that the needs of the children in question continue to be met. The trustees have acted in a manner that does not demonstrate any commitment to the children or the community in which they have been based for so long.

Ms O’Sullivan

Can the Minister do anything to stop the school from closing this year?

Ms Hanafin

The trustees have not even formally told the Department of their intention to close the school. We heard about it in the media yesterday.

Ms O’Sullivan

As did the parents.

Ms Hanafin

As did the parents and the board of management. It is unprecedented, as far as I am aware, for the trustees of a school to treat a local community in that manner. I will speak to them but I do not envisage, based on their attitude to date, that they will be more generous in the phasing out of the school's operations.

Mr. English

What have the trustees been looking for over the years? It was suggested yesterday that they wanted one more administrative principal or something like that. It would not take much for that to be made available. It seems very strange.

Ms Hanafin

If a school is to be given an administrative principal, it has to have a principal and seven mainstream class teachers. I have already said that the school in question has substantial staffing resources. It has special disadvantage and special resource teachers, including a special resource teacher for Travellers. It has genuinely been given the resources it needs because it is in a very disadvantaged area.

Ms O’Sullivan

The trustees might listen to the Minister if she talks to them.

Ms Hanafin

If they had the courtesy to inform the Department formally of their decision, we might be able to engage with them, ach sin scéal eile.

I would like to address some other questions. I was asked about the establishment of new schools. The Department has recognised that there are needs and demands for the establishment of new schools. If a school is in a temporary premises, the Department meets the rental costs and pays the appropriate capitation grant. If a new school is being formally established, the Department allocates €10,000 to the board of management, under a new initiative that has been commenced this year, to enable it to meet the costs of training, getting new people involved and organising. Deputy English acknowledged that the Department is responding more quickly to the needs of developing areas, while ensuring that it also meets existing needs.

Mr. English

I am aware of a school that is now in its second or third year, but is still getting hit with massive numbers each year, compared with well-established schools.

Ms Hanafin

The Department's policies for developing schools mean they do not have to operate on the basis of their allocations of class teachers when they had fewer students. They operate on the basis of the numbers they actually have as their local areas continue to grow.

Some €10 million in non-pay funding was given to Youthreach this year, for the first time in a number of years, to help it to meet the cost of addressing certain issues. A number of groups like Youthreach, Youth Encounter and some voluntary organisations are meeting the needs of young people who are not happy in school settings, for one reason or another. The Department has asked the task force on student behaviour to undertake a geographical audit to ascertain where such young people throughout the country are, what they are doing and what services are available for them. I believe we need to support such bodies, in the context of the task force, as they perform their roles. When that has been done, we will seek to expand the service in certain areas although I do not intend to set up a new service. I want to build on the work that is being done at present. That will form part of the roll-out of the task force. I have dealt with the issue of class sizes.

I was also asked about behaviour support. Valid issues relating to the training of our second level teachers were raised. I have raised this issue with the primary teacher training colleges and the universities who offer the higher diploma in secondary education course. I am not satisfied that the students coming out of our primary teacher training colleges are qualified to deal with the range of issues they face in the classroom. I have been in discussions with those colleges about ensuring they can meet the needs of disadvantage, for example. We need to ensure there are enough teachers for the gaelscoileanna — níl dóthain Gaeilge acu faoi láthair. There is a need to ensure that all primary teachers are trained to be able to teach in line with the ethics of Educate Together schools.

The issue of behaviour management needs to be considered in the context of second level schools. Having spoken to those involved in the training of secondary teachers, there is a radical need for those courses to address the important issues in the schools of today which will be faced by such teachers.

Curriculum reform, to which the Deputy referred, is linked to training, student behaviour and many other issues. Funding for the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment has increased by 8% to €4.4 million and I have appointed Dr. Tom Collins as its new chairman. A former professor of education in Maynooth with a background in community and adult education, Dr. Collins will bring a keen interest to the position.

I already spoke about moving the date of some examinations. For example, it may be practical to move paper 1 of the Irish and English examinations to May. I remind those who would oppose such a change that they are not required to write for six hours in one day. I hope we will secure agreement on these kinds of practical issues which do not impact on learning or teaching but could make a significant difference to the person doing the examination.

I am concerned about the degree of advertising associated with the examinations and the large amount of media attention they are receiving so early in the year. I have heard advertisements informing those preparing for the leaving certificate that they should get broadband. In addition, radio stations are organising seminars, study days and so forth which feature top-class teachers who will provide notes to those attending. Other countries where final examinations take place in May or June do not have this degree of hype, which adds to the pressure faced by students. I will do all in my power to reduce this pressure. I also intend to ensure that courses are exciting without having them dumbed down. Quality must be maintained at all times because appreciation of the quality of our education system is the reason inward investment continues.

I appreciate the importance of the back to education initiative and measures to improve access to third level education for disadvantaged young people. Seven thousand places are available under the back to education initiative and I hope the figure will increase this year. Travellers are a particular disadvantaged group. Despite the supports provided by some schools, we still face serious problems persuading Travellers to continue in second level education. This is not a reflection on schools which have a cohort of Travellers because they do tremendous work in trying to retain Traveller students.

Various reports have been issued on Traveller education and I am not happy with the return we are receiving on the substantial investment made in this sector. Ideas on how the problem should be tackled vary. Some argue that full integration is needed at all levels, while others advocate the establishment of separate training centres, etc. Considerable debate is still required on this issue.

Mr. Crowe

The absence of role models appears to be the difficulty facing many Travellers.

Ms Hanafin

David Joyce, a Traveller called to the Bar last year, is a wonderful role model for many people. Only one or two Travellers have joined the Garda and none is in the teaching profession. If a Traveller was to become a teacher, it would have a major impact. I have visited a number of Traveller centres and met women, in particular, including grandmothers in Tuam and Killarney, who moved from illiteracy to taking the junior certificate examination. They overcame significant personal obstacles to advance their education. The benefits they and their families derive from education can change a whole generation. While role models are needed, we must also aim higher. One of the medical colleges indicated it would try to support a young Traveller through second level with a view to encouraging him or her to enter medicine. As we are all aware, health is a major issue for Travellers.

Non-nationals and international children arriving here also require special attention. Language teaching is a major issue and 800 teachers provide English tuition to international children on a full-time basis. In addition, hundreds of other schools receive a grant to facilitate language learning because they have fewer than 13 children from other countries. We cannot allocate teachers to these schools on a permanent basis because not all of them will have permanent needs. It is important, therefore, that resources can be redirected to where they are required.

As Deputy Crowe stated, some schools have a substantial number of international children, perhaps as much as 40% of their intake, and therefore require additional support. Further difficulties arise when these children return home from school to environments in which English is not spoken because their parents do not have the language. We need to do more in the area of family literacy and language learning, possibly through the home-school liaison programme and adult education sector. Officials of the Department are actively working on this issue and have been trying, with schools, to ascertain the greatest need. I hope to produce new initiatives in this area.

On school completion, while the National Education Welfare Board is doing good work, it should be viewed in the context of other agencies which are also trying to promote retention in school. In addition to the board's staff of 94, a further 490 staff are working in educational disadvantage programmes, including the school completion programme, DEIS and home-school-community liaison. All schools with disadvantaged status must meet a specific school retention target. The carrot and stick approach is used. The school completion programme is a substantial measure designed to ensure that young people feel comfortable in the education system and will stay at school. This is achieved through activities such as homework and breakfast clubs, after-school activities, weekend and mid-term break courses, and summer camps. Significant investment has been allocated for this purpose.

Substantial increases have been provided to boards of management to provide training on legal requirements, etc. With regard to questions raised on the closure of St. Michael's CBS, Inchicore, if a school closes, the money invested by the Department in new buildings is recoverable from the patron. This matter is covered by the terms of the legal agreement with the trustees.

Mr. English

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive replies. Under subhead A4, incidental expenses, to what do the major increases in allocation refer? Will the Minister explain the reason for the significant increase in the allocation under subhead A6, office premises expenses? For what purpose will the funding allocated under the dormant accounts fund be used? The amount allocated to tackle substance abuse has not increased significantly. Will the Minister comment on the need to increase education in the area of substance abuse? While I accept one cannot do everything in schools, does she anticipate increasing funding for the education of children on the dangers of alcohol, drugs and substance abuse?

Will the Minister consider incorporating road safety and driver education in the curriculum at some point? Again, I accept schools cannot solve every problem. Irish people believe they have a right to drive and do not regard it as a privilege to be earned, which includes learning about theory, road safety, the capabilities of cars and driving skills. I encourage the Minister to ensure these issues are discussed in schools from the first year onwards.

Mr. Crowe

Adult literacy was not mentioned. The last OECD survey on the subject was carried out in 1997. Are there any plans for a new survey of the topic? It is still a major problem and looking at the budget, very little is being spent on it. Will any new initiatives on adult literacy be put in place, particularly in terms of research into the current situation?

Chairman

The Minister outlined a plan for an authority to look after third level grants. There are many interpretations of the regulations because of the multiplicity of agencies dealing with them. What is happening with that idea?

Ms Hanafin

I hope to bring the heads of the Bill on the third level grants system to the Government in the near future and that the Bill will be passed during this Dáil. One agency will co-ordinate the grant system but there will be more than one office. All of the county councils or all of the VECs will be involved.

Mr. English

Will the agency suggest changes to the system of assessment for grants?

Ms Hanafin

The VECs or the councils will administer the system as set down nationally. There is a need for change to the system but I will never see the legislation on administration if I try to change the capital allocation because that has serious implications.

Mr. English

Is the Minister reviewing the assessment system anyway?

Ms Hanafin

We are only examining the administration system at present.

The number of extra third level places that have been created and the number of extra people entering third level demonstrate that investment, particularly in disadvantaged schools, is working. These are people who would always have had free fees. The added investment in second level supports them more than anything else.

A total of 34,000 people are benefitting this year from adult literacy programmes, surpassing the national development plan and NAPS targets. We are spending €23 million in the area this year, which is a very significant investment.

Deputy English asked about the administration budget. We had savings from the previous year that we were allowed to carry forward into this year. We do not spend enough on it. It is a three-year, multiannual cycle.

I have made recommendations on how the education element of the dormant accounts fund might be spent but I am not in a position to say if they have been accepted.

Mr. English

When will that money be allocated?

Ms Hanafin

We hope to spend it this year.

Mr. English

I assume it will be spent towards the end of the year.

Ms Hanafin

Yes.

On drink, drugs and road safety, there is a tendency to think that schools can solve all society's problems. We cannot solve teenage pregnancy but we can teach decision making, we cannot solve problems with alcohol but we can teach responsibility and we cannot solve the problem of people speeding but we can teach respect for one's own and one's passengers' lives. For those reasons, the social, personal and health education programme is crucial. It goes from primary school until junior certificate and a leaving certificate programme is being devised that will focus on those elements.

There is obviously a serious problem with young people on the roads and there may be opportunities during transition year for the rules of the road to be taught and the on-line test to be done, but I do not want to impose the cost of driving lessons on schools. They would not have the facilities to do it. By teaching the rules and the concept that children must take responsibility for their own lives, schools can play an important rule.

Mr. English

Some schools address the issue during transition year but not everyone does transition year.

Ms Hanafin

Boys' schools do not do it.

Mr. English

We should touch on the topic at some stage in the curriculum.

Has there been any research into drop-out and failure rates of those who switch course after first year at third level? In a course like PE in the University of Limerick there is a very high drop-out rate and other courses are the same. Other people, however, have been blocked from taking up these places. How can we tackle that issue?

Ms Hanafin

The HEA has such figures. The CAO application deadline passed in January and 40% of applicants will change their minds between now and July. Some people change after their mock examinations, thinking they will not do well, a bad reason for changing, and some change after the leaving certificate. The CAO form, however, should reflect what people really want to do, not what they think they will get. Last year some people changed their minds ten times between applying and going to college. I hope the extra allocation of guidance teachers and the greater targeting of disadvantaged schools will help people to make the right choices. The HEA has this information.

Mr. English

Are large numbers of students dropping out?

Ms Hanafin

It depends on the course. Some people opt for a course without researching it properly and knowing what is involved.

Mr. English

Career guidance teachers could act on that issue.

Ms Hanafin

In the current academic year I have made available 100 career guidance teachers so every school should benefit.

Chairman

On behalf of the Select Committee on Education and Science, I thank the Minister and her officials for attending today's meeting.