Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2023

Vote 26 - Education (Supplementary)

An Cathaoirleach

No apologies have been received. I remind members and officials to please ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even on silent mode. This meeting was convened to consider the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 26 - Education, which has been referred to the committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and her officials. I thank the Minister for the briefing documents that were provided prior to the meeting. I invite her to make a brief opening statement. Members can ask general questions on Vote 26. They will have a time slot of five minutes each.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I know the committee will join with me in extending our sympathy and support to the children and their carer impacted by the horrific violence on Thursday last in an area in proximity to a school in Parnell Square, Dublin. In particular, we are thinking of the young child and her carer who remain in hospital. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for their personal engagement with me on this matter in recent days, all of them offering their full support to the school community. It is appreciated.

I am pleased to be here, together with officials from my Department. I thank Members for the opportunity to speak with the committee and for its consideration of my Department's Supplementary Estimate for 2023. Following approval by the Government, my Department is seeking a net Supplementary Estimate of €795 million for 2023. This Supplementary Estimate includes additional funding to provide for: the delivery of required school accommodation, including mainstream classes, special classes and special school places, and the effect of construction inflation on programme costs; services and accommodation needed for the additional Ukrainian students in the school system; cost-of-living measures that were agreed during the year that will be paid out in 2023; certain Covid-19 supports in schools at the start of this year; and other costs in the demand-led service areas of school payrolls, pensions and transport.

I will briefly outline the key elements for the information of the committee. Under current expenditure funding, there is additional grant funding of €106 million. This is to provide for: further financial supports to schools given general inflation and increasing energy prices that are to be paid to recognised schools in the free education scheme; Covid-19 grants paid for term 2 of the 2022-23 school year to cover the costs of PPE, hand sanitiser, and enhanced cleaning; a school attendance campaign in disadvantaged schools and; extra capitation grant payments to schools for the arrival of Ukrainian pupils.

There were additional pay requirements in the school sector to the tune of €239 million. This includes resources for: Additional staff being allocated to schools due to increased school enrolments as a result of the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, including teachers for English as an additional language; mainstream and special needs teachers and special needs assistants; maintaining the regional education and language teams, REALTs, established in education and training boards, ETBs; payment of pay deal costs agreed for school secretaries; a range of other payroll subhead pressures that were impacted by enrolments being greater than forecasted, and; increased pension costs.

Some €99 million of additional school transport funding is required for a range of initiatives and additional services introduced during 2023. This includes a cost-of-living measure to reduce school transport fees and the provision of additional services due to an increased number of pupils seeking places on school buses. There were additional transport services and routes needed for the Ukrainian pupils, Covid-19 funding required to cover the costs of enhanced cleaning on school buses and other expenditure pressures across the existing school transport services.

Earlier in the year, the Government made a decision to again waive the entry fees for junior and senior cycle students sitting the 2023 State examinations. The waiver of fees resulted in a loss of income and an additional €11 million of Exchequer funding provision being required for the State Examination Commission.

A significant additional capital allocation of €405 million is provided for in this Supplementary Estimate.

This is required to meet significant budgetary pressure, which is primarily attributed to the continued delivery of an ambitious school building programme in 2023. Funding of €330 million is supporting the continued roll-out of urgently needed school building projects. There are currently in excess of 300 school building projects under construction involving a total State investment of over €1.2 billion, which includes over 40 new school building projects, with extension or refurbishment projects at existing schools making up the balance. This funding also provided for the accelerated delivery of accommodation through the modular accommodation programme, to provide 5,000 school places to meet mainstream demographic needs and for over 1,000 children with special education needs. While we are managing the bulk of Ukrainian provision within existing capacity wherever possible, our greatest pressure in terms of capacity is at post-primary level, where we are still in a period of rising demographics and significant special needs capacity deficits. Funding of €75 million was required to support the accelerated delivery of provision of school places for Ukrainian students.

A combination of factors, including demographic growth, the need to align school place provision with housing developments, increased demand for special educational needs provision and the accommodation of children from Ukraine, means that significant levels of additional school accommodation are required within tight timeframes. This increased capital delivery has helped to ensure that children and young people have access to an appropriate school place in a timely fashion, as is their constitutional right.

An estimated additional €54 million in appropriations-in-aid income in excess of the amount provided for in the original REV allocations is included in Supplementary Estimate and will partly offset the expenditure pressures I have just outlined. The bulk of this additional income is represented by increased pension contributions due to additional numbers being employed in our schools with some other additional receipts due to refunds by schools of unspent 2022-23 Covid-19 grants.

I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail and I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. Deputy Mairéad Farrell is our first questioner. She has five minutes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht teacht os comhair an choiste. Is dócha go n-aontódh muid ar fad leis an méid a dúirt sí ag tús a píosa cainte ansin maidir leis an scoil i mBaile Átha Cliath. Táimid ar fad ag smaoineamh ar na daltaí, na tuismitheoirí, agus iad siúd atá ag obair ann freisin ar ndóigh.

I will start on the issue of exemptions in respect of the Irish language. I am sure the Minister will have seen the piece on tuairisc.ie last week which showed a 45% increase in exemptions from studying Irish for secondary school students last year. This is deeply concerning. Our education system has a massive role to play in relation to the strength of the Irish language. That we see that 50,000 secondary school students have an exemption from studying Irish is really concerning. It is over 12% of the secondary school population. Despite the decision in 2019 to ensure that the exemptions would become more rare, it is increasing year on year. This massive increase is particularly concerning. What are the Department and the Minister doing to try and change the trend and to come to terms with it?

Deputy Norma Foley

We have a cohort of more than 1 million students. We have an increased number of students who are coming from abroad, for example. To mention Ukraine alone, there are more than 17,700 students from there. The Deputy will know that students who come from another area, by virtue of their age, can often be exempted from the Irish language. Because there is a more multicultural or diverse representation of students coming from various countries, there is obviously an increase. Notwithstanding that, there have been changes in the opportunity to apply for exemption. As I say, there is a large number of students coming from other countries but also students are applying for exemptions for well-being but there has to be a verified case or cause to achieve an exemption. Beyond that, the Department is -----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

May I just ask, though, if it is the case that there are more exemptions for Irish language than others, say French or German, as a second language?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is an element of choice with those other subjects. Students have the opportunity to choose whether they will pursue another language whether it is French, German or Spanish or whatever might be available in a school. It is very hard to draw a comparison there because that is a strong distinction. Notwithstanding that, the Department is very conscious of the importance and the primacy of the Irish language. A considerable body of work has been done in relation to Gaeltacht policy for the Irish language, so that is in the Gaeltacht area, and work is being done on policy development for schools outside the Gaeltacht area. I am very conscious of the need to support the competency and the confidence of our teachers in the teaching of Irish. Upskilling courses in Irish are being made available. For the first time this year, Irish is included in the upskilling course. So there is a body of work but we must recognise that we have a very diverse student cohort now compared with what we would have had previously.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I might come in on that because I feel particularly passionately about that. If anything, we are going backwards on this and that is clear from the figures. I was lucky enough to go to an Irish-language school. That is the only reason I can speak Irish. At the time, I was the only person in the school who did not speak English or Irish at home. I spoke German at home. I came from a totally different background and it was completely unusual at the time. From my experience and speaking to others who speak multiple languages I know when one come from a multilingual household or background one finds it much easier to learn other languages. I am deeply concerned about the whole issue of the Irish language. Conradh na Gaelige has a policy on this which it would like to see implemented. I understand this was promised in the programme for Government and that Fianna Fáil promised it during the 2020 general election.

I feel so passionate about this particular subject, especially as someone who understands what it is like to come from a household that speaks another language. When I was in school they were concerned that I would not be able to speak English properly because I spoke German at home and Irish in school and they did not have the understanding yet that with English being everywhere, as it is, it would be my best language. I do not buy that we cannot bring people in. People who speak different languages at home have more of an ability and it is easier for us to learn an additional language. I really feel this is a scandal that is unfolding in front of our eyes. If we are serious about maintaining the Irish language at some kind of level, we need to look at education. If we are at this point already, it should be seen as our warning sign that we need to do everything that we can. The Minister mentioned Gaeltacht schools. Just last week, I tabled a Topical Issue on how ETB schools are treated differently to voluntary schools around Irish language medium education. ETB schools, of which the majority are Gaeltacht schools, do not get the same funding. They do not get the bilingual grant that the voluntary schools get. I put in a parliamentary question to make sure I was correct about ETB schools being majority Gaeltacht schools. Obviously those schools have extra challenges. Many are much smaller because of the local populations. This is a warning sign for us to really get to grips. I am not doing this in the sense of giving out here but we need to see this as our wake-up call and really focus on this. I know Conradh na Gaelige has done a huge amount of work on this. I am asking that we try and work with Conradh na Gaelige to make sure we turn the tide on this.

Deputy Norma Foley

I fully accept the Deputy’s passion. I want to acknowledge the work of Conradh na Gaelige and other organisations.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Of course, yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

There is a suite of organisations doing great work on this area and have been very engaged with the Department. I fundamentally agree with the Deputy that the more languages a student is given the opportunity to experience, statistics show they can perform very strongly from a linguistic perspective. That is the chief motivation behind bringing in a variety of modern foreign languages at primary school level. That had never been done before.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is good.

Deputy Norma Foley

We are doing this now and I know people would have different views initially as to the benefits and the impacts on the Irish language. In fact, studies show us that where students can master one language, they can master a second one. We are moving ahead with that and this ability to introduce modern foreign languages at primary school has been very positively endorsed. That involves starting with a much younger cohort of students. There is a recognition, however, of the age of the students when they come from abroad.

I refer also to the fact that we have an increased level of young people with additional needs in the system now. That is a good and positive thing for us in education where these students are attending mainstream school and are fully participative but, again, for a variety of reasons, they may choose to take a certain cohort of subjects. That may also be impacting on the figure.

I assure the Deputy of how important the Irish language in primary school remains in terms of the Department. We are determined to support our staff and to grow it within our schools. We have strongly developed a policy around the provision in Gaeltacht schools. We are currently preparing a policy on provision outside of the Gaeltacht. Special consideration is given to schools which have that particular status in terms of the additional supports we can provide for them.

I appreciate the support of the Deputy and the points she is raising when one looks at the statistics and what may be inferred from them. If one was to look at it on the ground, however, considerable work is being done to promote the Irish language and this will continue to be so. I am very happy to take on board any points the Deputy might wish to raise with me-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Definitely.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----as we go forward.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan to speak to be followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister and her officials. I have five questions and I will just rattle through them, so that she will have the remaining time to answer them. My first question is in respect of the arrears due to school secretaries. I understand that there is an agreement which affects over 3,000 school secretaries and I further understand it is to be backdated to September 2021. Could the Minister give the committee an update as to where that is at? Has the Minister any details on the secretaries who have been paid and on the number outstanding?

My second question relates to the school transport review. My understanding is that that review has now been completed and is awaiting publication. Can the Minister give the committee an update on that? I am conscious that at the turn of the new year, we will be into the next cycle and will be heading into April when the portal or window normally opens.

My third question is on the school books. This is probably one of the greatest initiatives the Minister has undertaken in the past number of years. I welcome the provision at second level. Specifically, on the digital side of things, on the provision of apps, software iPads, and so on, are there any plans to expand the book scheme to include online or digital books, e-books or whatever, as opposed to specifically investing in paper or conventional books?

My fourth question is one I asked at a previous select committee meeting and it is to do with the Department of public expenditure's intervention for public contracts, typically a school, in this scenario, and how it would engage with contractors to combat the inflationary rise in construction costs. I am aware that it is an opt-in type of system but I have come across one or two circumstances where schools have not opted in and it has been a negative experience for the contractor. One contractor I know stated that this would be the last time he would do a public contract because the school would not work with him on it.

Deputy Norma Foley

Was that with regard to the inflation?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Yes, it was with regard to the inflationary side of things. I ask the Minister to provide to the committee any details she has on that and if it is still the same position where it is an opt in or voluntary system. Could the Minister provide any analysis that has been done at departmental level, even to be provided as a supplementary reply after this meeting as I do not expect her to have it with her now? How many contractors or schools have engaged with that? Is it that 90% or 95% of the contractors are having positive engagements and perhaps I am just being contacted by one or two who have had a negative experience?

My final question is more to bring a matter to the Minister's attention, because it is more a question I should be asking the Minister for Health. I wish to raise the issue of Carrigaline Community Special School and the provision of therapies there. It is an education and training board, ETB, school and, to be honest, it is a fantastic special school but the 40 or so students who are there since the school was established over a year ago have had no access to or intervention from the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, teams. When the CDNT was contacted to see if it had had any interaction with the school, it acknowledged on the public record that it had but I understand that interaction amounted to a one 40-minute visit from a therapist and no intervention for any children. We will establish more special schools in the future, and the ETB has done a very good job on Carrigaline. From a parent's perspective, if they are considering sending their child to an ETB school, they do so in the knowledge that their child may or may not have access to therapies. However, if they are sending their child to school which might be run by the Cope Foundation, Enable Ireland or some other provider, at least their child has that access, although people might debate how many hours or interventions they are getting. At least, in that situation, parents have access whereas currently, in the ETB set-up in Cork, at a special school level, they do not. That is something on which we would be delighted to have the Minister's support or intervention in helping us to progress that. Those were my questions and I thank the Minister.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy very much for those questions. On the school secretaries, there are more than 2,600 school secretaries on the payroll and 154 of them are individual secretaries employed by more than one school. I am just giving the Deputy that information as it is an interesting dynamic. The Department has been providing a payroll service for these school secretaries since September 2023, as the Deputy knows. On the arrears referred to by the Deputy, for the 2022-2023 and the 2021-2022 school year, my understanding is that they were paid last week, around 23 November. I believe that has been rectified in respect of approximately €8 million. I also acknowledge that the vast majority of school secretaries opted to take up the invitation to become part of the centralised payroll but there are a number of school secretaries who did not, which is absolutely fine.

On the school transport review, I know the Deputy is very invested in this. The next stage for that review is for it to go to pre-Cabinet and then on to the Cabinet. I am also very anxious that we progress that as quickly as possible. We need to find a slot for that to go in there, as we need to work with all of the other constituent parts from a pre-Cabinet and Cabinet point of view, to facilitate that moving as quickly as possible. I am very anxious that we progress it as quickly as we can.

I acknowledge the Deputy's very positive remarks on the school books. This initiative has been received very positively. An investment of some €50 million has been made at primary level and €67 million has been invested at post-primary level. This means that collectively, between primary and post-primary levels, next year we will have more than 770,000 pupils benefiting from the free school books scheme.

On the digital side of that, e-books are covered by the scheme. We were very conscious that we would have to take a first step here and that we were very much stepping into a whole new domain. We started with the textbooks, the e-books. There is only a certain amount we can do.

On the digital technology, significant investment has been made by the Department in this, particularly during the Covid-19 pandemic. Over €200 million was provided for it over two years for payment and so forth. It is a work in progress with regard to the primary school books.

On the inflation side of things, I am, and I believe everybody is, conscious that the whole construction sector environment has been very challenging in recent years and the Department has built in a cost uplift of 21%, relative to the previous year. Costs have increased further since then but increases in our basic building costs have broadly tracked construction inflation in the economy.

In May 2022 a co-operation framework, which the Deputy referred to, was introduced in order to address the impact that exceptional inflation on construction materials and energy was having on public works contracts. To date, 69 claims have been submitted to the Department under the framework. Some 63 have been recommended for payment, costing in excess of €70 million. There are six such claims outstanding and under review. If there are specific issues with regard to individual contractors, which the Deputy may wish to give me afterwards, I will be very happy to follow up on these.

With regard to Carrigaline Community Special School, I want to acknowledge the great progress that has been made, even in the past number of years, in the development of new special schools, particularly the leadership role that has been taken by the schools themselves, by ETBs and others.

The Deputy is correct that the provision of therapy does not fall within our remit. The HSE committed to returning 85 therapy posts to us in 2021 and 136 in 2022. As of now, 104 posts have been returned. I absolutely accept that is not sufficient. We have engaged with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who is doing great work in this area, and with her officials. We are fully engaged with the HSE and the Department of children to drive this on, because it is an inherent and hugely important part of the provision within our special schools. While it falls outside the remit of Department of Education, I assure the Deputy that we are engaging with everybody possible to try to make it a reality as quickly as possible.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before the committee. We note the Supplementary Estimate. It was unfortunate we did not get an opportunity to vote on it today. I think efficiency in the Dáil stymied the desire of the Department to get the vote passed. It is hoped the Government will survive for another week. If it does not, we extend our condolences to the Minister and the Department.

I note what the Minister has stated about the secondary school books. It is a very good project that she will be aware has been introduced up to junior cycle level. Are there any proposals to introduce it into the senior cycle level? What are the barriers that have been put up to the Minister by Department officials, preventing her from doing so?

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge my officials. They really did put in an enormous body of work to get it, in the first instance, through primary and on into post-primary level. I acknowledge that post-primary level is a very different experience from primary, with a greater number of subjects and a diversity of choice and all of that. There is a review of how the scheme worked in primary. That is very much informing how we will roll out the scheme at post-primary level for the first three years for junior cycle. It is our ambition to do that at senior cycle level as well, but it is a question of having the financial resources to do it. It is part of our budgetary considerations. We started with primary, we have moved on to junior cycle, and if we can keep things fine in a financial way, we would love to move forward.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

How is it progressing in the primary sector? Was the Minister satisfied with the way the books were distributed and availed of?

Deputy Norma Foley

Very much so. I acknowledge that tremendous work was done on the ground by schools to make it workable, as it were. The Department did provide specific and additional funding to schools to ensure they were recompensed, if you like, for taking charge of the roll-out of the book scheme and compensated for the time and work involved in it. It has been very positively endorsed by parents and by the schools themselves. Every day I acknowledge that the schools have done the work. We can certainly give a financial resource for it, but it will never compensate for the genuine interest schools have had and have shown to make this work. It has been positively received. We are reviewing it and any learnings we take from it will be used as we move on to junior cycle.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Mar is eol don Aire, tá a lán bunscoileanna i mo Dháilcheantar féin ag iarraidh Gaelcholáiste nua a bhunú. Bhí cruinniú againn faoi an bhliain seo caite agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as sin. Beidh na daltaí agus na scoileanna ag teacht ar ais chuig an Dáil an tseachtain seo chugainn agus tá an feachtas ag dul ar aghaidh, ach níl aon nuacht agam faoin scoil.

As the Minister will be aware, there are a lot of Gaelscoileanna in my constituency. There is huge interest in the Irish language. It may come as a surprise to people outside Dublin that there is such interest in the language in an area of south Dublin. There are six bunscoileanna in my constituency. One of the problems that has been faced by parents who make the big decision to send their children there is that they do not have access to a Gaelcholáiste in the area. There are Gaelcholáistí further out towards Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin. They are excellent schools and it is really hard for people to get into them. There is Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh over in Rathfarnham, which is a distance away. That is also full now. There is huge demand there. I know I am putting the Minister on the spot, but I ask her to look into this matter as there is huge demand for it in the area. It would be a wonderful legacy for the Minister and it would also signify the commitment of the Department of Education to the Irish language. I know Deputy Mairéad Farrell spoke earlier about people trying to get out of doing Irish, but there is a huge demand there for people who are passionately interested in it. I will not put the Minister on the spot by asking her for an update, unless she wants to give me an answer, but I ask her to give it consideration. It is a big issue in the constituency and there is huge interest there.

Deputy Norma Foley

Tuigim an méid sin. Is maith is cuimhin liom an cruinniú a bhí againn. Tá an Roinn ag déanamh gach iarracht áiteanna a chur ar fáil do na daltaí. I understand a very impressive meeting that was organised by the parents there. There is a genuine determination on the part of parents, the Deputy and public representatives, who are very committed. I want to be clear that the Department is working hard, is looking at availability across the area, and will be making further observations on what is available and what the potential is going forward. We will seek to do all we can to keep the Deputy updated on that. It is our aim to ensure there is adequate provision of places to accommodate students going from Gaelsoileanna into Gaelcholáistí. We continue to keep it under review.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister and the officials for being here today. Like Deputy O'Sullivan, there are five issues I would like to raise, so I will rattle through them in what is a very constrained timeframe. The first is the issue of pay. Clearly, the most valuable resource within our education area is our children, but the second most valuable one is our educators. Has the Minister given consideration to the restoration of allowances for qualifications? It is difficult for teachers to make the decision to invest in themselves and their own human capital when there is not an incentive to do so. Similarly, has consideration been given to the issue of middle management posts or posts of responsibility, which to my mind represent very good value for money when you consider the work that gets done.

The second issue I raise is around the IT grants that were pulled last year. That was felt very keenly by the schools I engaged with on it. Does the Minister plan to restore or reintroduce those grants next year?

Third, on the issue of schoolbooks, I share the positive outlook the other Deputies have expressed about the free schoolbooks, but what safeguards have we in place for the quality of spend, the value for money we are getting, the ability to protect ourselves from profit maximisation from publishers, and incentives to reuse schoolbooks? I worry about the pressure to have a textbook-mediated curriculum and the pressure to finish the book. I am sure the Minister felt it when she was in the classroom. I certainly did. I also worry about the impact on small-scale retailers, in particular, who find it difficult to engage in the programme. It is almost a little bit too big for them to take on.

The fourth issue is school transport. I am glad to hear the school transport review is on the way. It is a source of recurring frustration, particularly given that on my count there are four different streams of school transport, between the transport for Ukrainian students, those in direct provision centres, special education and the general school transport system. I hope the review includes some sort of streamlining of that so that we are getting the best bang for our buck in actually getting the children to school.

The fifth might be a very minor issue, but as they say, if you look after the pennies, the pounds will look after themselves. Within the school transport budget, €3 million is being dedicated to Covid-19 enhanced cleaning. Three million euro might not be a huge amount in the context of the overall budget, but it is not an insignificant amount. What is it we are talking about with that? How do we monitor value for money? I am assuming most of it is spent by the private company operators. Given what we know now about how Covid is transmitted, are we spending that money effectively or are we spending it on mopping floors, which does not do anything in terms of transmission? I think that is more than enough.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the issue of the posts of responsibility, as part of the budget 2024 process, 1,000 additional posts of responsibility will be made available.

That is a positive and a win for schools. If we believe in distributed leadership, we must provide opportunities for it.

Regarding the master's in education, Building Momentum has provided a sectoral bargaining process to deal with outstanding claims. The teaching unions decided to use this fund to settle certain claims, including the restoration of the professional master's in education allowance to new entrant teachers and increases in principal allowances in the primary sector. Other initiatives in the budget include supports for young teachers, for example, €2,000 for the holders of professional master's in education, PME, degrees on completion of their first year in work.

Regarding ICT grants, there was a double allocation over two years, amounting to €200 million. I have been clear that the ICT grants for the 2023-24 school year will also be paid. Perhaps because the money came in a double tranche, there was not an acknowledgement of it to the fullest extent, but it was paid on the double. It is important to make that point. Notwithstanding that, I accept that schools expected an earlier allocation for the 2023-24 school year. I have committed that it will be paid in the 2023-24 school year.

I appreciate the Deputy’s positivity as regards schoolbooks. He raised a point about the impact on retailers. We in the Department were clear that every opportunity would be given to local retailers. Where a local school had an existing relationship with a local provider or wanted to develop one, it had the opportunity to do so. From my experience, many schools have relationships with their local providers because of the book rental schemes, which operated well in our schools, particularly at primary level. For many, they just continued those relationships, but I was clear that this autonomy should be given to them.

Did the Deputy raise another point about schoolbooks and value for money?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Their reuse and value for money. There is curricular pressure. A parent might have an expectation concerning a school textbook, but an educator might have decided to go a different way in delivering the topic.

Deputy Norma Foley

Schools are encouraged to reuse books. They are fantastic at doing that, and great at reusing resources. Part of the funding is being provided for this. Schools have shown great ability to do it in the past. I have no reason to doubt they will be able to do it in future. I also appreciate that teachers supplement what is happening in the textbook in a variety of ways. They will be positive towards reusing the textbooks.

The Deputy is very engaged in the school transport issue. As he said, we should get bang for our buck. The school transport review has examined every element, for example, the current criteria and our climate and environmental obligations. It is an impressive body of work and is to the credit of everyone who engaged in it. A large number of parents and students engaged, as did those currently using the service, others who would like to use it and the providers. It is a significant body of work that will make for an interesting pathway forward. It will go to a pre-Cabinet meeting, then the Cabinet and ultimately be published. Depending on what is agreed, it will demand significant resources to make it a reality.

Regarding the €3 million for enhanced cleaning of school buses, that payment was made from January to Easter of last year during Covid. It is no longer in play.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is discontinued.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. Throughout Covid, we followed what was the public health advice. When the public health advice about what was required changed, we obeyed it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

Next are Deputies Clarke and Crowe.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I welcome the Minister and her officials. I wish to follow up on the school transport issue, which I have raised repeatedly. I have a concerning email in front of me. While not directly related to the transport provided by the Department, it raises questions about the communication between the Department and the National Transport Authority, NTA. It is from a school of 642 students in Rathmines. The NTA rerouted two bus services that served the school, causing significant issues for the 642 children. It is a big school that has been around for 110 years. These bus routes-----

Deputy Norma Foley

I am sorry, but I missed that. What did the Deputy say happened?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The NTA rerouted two bus services, specifically the No. 18 and the No. 17. The school engaged in the public consultation. Did the Department engage in that and has it had any correspondence with the NTA on this matter?

A recurring issue in school transport is that of the pay and conditions of school escorts and the difficulties schools experience in recruiting escorts to be on the buses with students. This issue arose recently when the committee visited the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra, where an escort was essentially volunteering for a significant portion of the day. The escort got on the bus in the morning with the kids, stayed in Dublin for the day at the escort’s own expense – the bus came from Monaghan, by the way – and travelled back to Monaghan with the students. If that escort is ill or otherwise unable to attend, those students cannot avail of the specialist education they receive in Cabra. If the Minister commented on this matter, it would be appreciated.

That leads nicely – “segue” is the term, I believe – into the issue of capital projects. Will the Minister provide an update on the new school building that is proposed for the Holy Family School for the Deaf? The educators we engaged with there and the children, one of whom is coming to work as an intern with a member of the committee in the new year, were vocal about their need for engagement with the Department, given the unique nature of the school and its students’ needs. If the Minister commented on how that engagement stood, it would be appreciated.

Will the Minister update us on the delayed projects, for example, the solar panel scheme?

I wish to refer to a special school in County Kildare called Stepping Stones Special School. There seems to be a gaping hole in the management of the project that is under way there. The project keeps getting pushed back. Dates have been set and missed. A parent got in contact to say that responsibility for this lay with the Department, not with the school. An update on this situation would be appreciated.

I will move on to the issue of funding. The Minister stated that specific capitation would be made available for students from Ukraine. That is the right thing to do. My question relates to children who sign up with a school and move into the school community from direct provision after the end of September. A school in Donegal missed out on more than €30,000 in funding because it welcomed 52 students in October. That is a significant sum of money for any school to miss out on.

I did not quite catch the response to Deputy Farrell’s question on the difference in the bilingual grants for meánscoileanna and ETBs. If the Minister repeated it, I would appreciate it.

I have a copy of the primary school grants calendar for up to next June in front of me. I see no money for minor works grants on it. Is that an omission or will the money not be paid by the end of the school year next summer?

Regarding the Covid cleaning grants, how much of the amount listed as due to be paid has been recouped from schools that underspent in previous years? I have another email, this one from a school in a different area of Dublin.

It is a DEIS band 1 school in a disadvantaged area and the school has been asked to repay €6,000 in Covid cleaning grants. How many schools are in that position and what is the total money those schools have been asked to repay?

On the expansion of the book grant scheme, a growing number of schools at post-primary level use devices, either tablets or some form of digital device, to assist in learning. Books are often preloaded on to the devices but pupils are also issued with hard copies or paper books. Has that aspect been taken into consideration by the Department? What engagement has it had on that issue?

Deputy Norma Foley

To reply to the first question, Dublin Bus has never been part of the school transport system.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The Minister has acknowledged that

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that the cohort of students the Deputy mentioned have been discommoded but we do not have a role in that regard.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

There was no submission made.

Deputy Norma Foley

The school transport system is very distinct from that transport scheme. It is not operated by the Department or by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department.

I heard what the Deputy said about bus escorts. I am very conscious that these people are hugely important to our system. On the case the Deputy raised where an escort is not available or able to work on a certain day, a sub or replacement escort can be provided for. I am interested in hearing the details of the case because if a bus escort is not available, another bus escort can be provided. If the Deputy provides me with details, I will be happy to follow up on the matter.

There is a body of work on the SNA workforce plan and many of our bus escorts work as SNAs. There is a questionnaire involved in that engagement. Very positive work is being done on the workplace plan, which will give us further information on the numbers of bus escorts, how they operate in our schools and what needs to be done going forward. I am very favourably disposed to doing anything we can to improve the experience of bus escorts. Policy will be informed, in the first instance, by what comes out of the workforce plan. It will not be the only stand-alone piece of work that we do. A piece of work will come out of the workplace development programme.

On capital projects and the school for the deaf, I do not have specifics on individual schools with me. As the Deputy will know, there are more than 4,000 schools. However, I will be happy to revert to the Deputy with a specific update on the school in question.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

I am very pleased to hear that a student will be working with a member of the committee. I would be more than pleased to meet the student who will be working with the Deputy or another member of the committee. I give a commitment to the Deputy that we will convey to her a specific update on the school.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I appreciate that.

Deputy Norma Foley

On solar panels, we launched the solar panels programme last week. The programme will go live on 30 November for the first ten counties. A further eight counties will follow and another eight counties will follow that again, in May and December, I think. All schools will be eligible to apply. There will be 16 panels per school. The initiative means that schools will, for the first time, have a user-friendly application process because we will use the geographic information system. We have never done that before and it means there will be an online portal which will facilitate a very quick application system for schools. We think this new method will speed up the process and will probably present opportunities to use this type of model to time-manage for school principals. I will get back to the Deputy with a response to her query about the Stepping Stones Special School.

On the question about the Covid cleaning grant, nobody has been asked to repay unless a school had funds available that it did not spend or whatever the case might be. If a school has not spent the money, it would have to repay it.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

How many schools will be refunding moneys?

Deputy Norma Foley

Schools were not asked to repay any moneys that were given to them during Covid.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

How many of the schools will be refunding?

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not have a figure on the number of schools but I can get back to the Deputy with that information. No school was asked to repay any moneys it was given during Covid unless it had not spent them, if I am making myself clear. No school had to repay any funding it got unless it was surplus to their spend. If schools have money left over, that goes back to the Department but if they spent every penny of it, they are not required to make any repayment to the Department. I can come back to the Deputy with the figure.

On the minor works scheme, the funding was paid to the schools in April of this year.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Was that for 2023-24?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. The 2024-25 payment will be made in due course. Funding was paid in April.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

There is no additional funding list.

Deputy Norma Foley

The funding was for 2023-24. The 2024-25 payment will be made.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The grant calendar is correct.

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not have the calendar in front of me now but I can say that it was paid in April 2023 for the 2023-24 school year.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

There is no additional minor works grant but the money is coming before the end of June for next year. Is that correct?

Deputy Norma Foley

I did not say that. The moneys will come during the 2024-25 school year but the date has not been determined yet. I cannot provide a specific date in 2024 for the payment but it will come in due course.

On the question on books being sent to schools, I acknowledge that everybody is very supportive of the scheme. We noted that ebooks can be used. We do not have the capacity to do everything in terms of providing the books free of charge to the schools. We have begun the process. There will be opportunities down the line to do things differently in terms of digital devices and all of that but we had to start where we could start. We are where we are but that is not to say that going forward things will be different.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

My question related to the schools where the books are provided on a device, yet hard copies of the books are also provided. Has that practice been reviewed? Is there engagement around that?

Deputy Norma Foley

What we are providing are the textbooks.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The Department is not providing the licences for the devices.

Deputy Norma Foley

No, we provide the textbooks. Things will evolve over time. We are doing a review of how things have operated at primary level. I have no doubt there will be a review of how things will operate going forward at junior cycle and that will inform us in future.

On the needs, particularly in terms of the issue raised by the Deputy, the initiative would probably be more pertinent at junior cycle for senior cycle.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Post-primary.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. There will be a lot of learning from that. We had a certain amount of money at our disposal so we used that to the best of our ability at that time.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I asked a question about the additional capitation for children in direct provision.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy is referring to a school in Donegal. There is a capitation grant provided to the school. Where students from Ukraine or wherever, if they have come in particular numbers, there are additional resources, particularly in terms of the EAL or mainstream teaching posts, provided to the school. If a school has a difficulty with the funding it has and is finding it difficult to manage, it is invited to present and engage with the financial support services unit, FSSU, in the Department. Every support will be made available to the school.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Will the Minister express a view on the school being told to go to the Irish Red Cross or the Society of St. Vincent de Paul?

Deputy Norma Foley

I am not aware of that ever happening. I can only speak in general. We have the FSSU, the financial services section in the Department, which works on an individual basis with schools. We have schools the length and breadth of the country that are managing. I have seen them because I have visited them. Huge numbers of new students have arrived in schools and they are managing very well and efficiently with the money that is made available to them.

If there is an exception of a school not in a position to do that, it is invited to engage on an individual basis with the FSSU. My experience across the country is of seeing schools with large numbers managing well.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I am still waiting for an answer that was meant to be given to Deputy Farrell around the bilingual grant discrepancy between ETB schools for meánscoileanna.

Deputy Norma Foley

I have to come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister and her officials for being here this evening and for sharing documents in advance of the meeting.

Free schoolbooks at primary level has been a fantastic initiative. The Minister is to be congratulated on it. It has been largely successful. A concern I have based on 16 years at the top of the classroom is that each year the large publishing companies, which we will not name, bring out revised editions. Question 8 could be changed and question 9 muddled around. Minor changes are made. We noticed in the past in our school that you put some down on the book list in June for the parents to buy and next thing parents come in and put the two books in front of you. They are almost identical. That is something parents and schools have grappled with, and we always worked our way around it. However, this time, the taxpayer is involved, as is the Department of Education. Does the Department have a lens trained on the publishers to ensure we get proper editions that are bang for your buck and that they are getting to schools on time?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is an agreement with the publishers that they will not change their editions before five years have elapsed. If there are specific instances of that not being the case, I would be happy for the Deputy to bring them to me and we will follow them up. The Deputy is 100% correct that it can be something as small as a diagram or additional visual that does not change the essence of what was there originally, but we are clear the agreement with the publisher is in place for five years.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

My next question relates to school transport, which others have mentioned. We finally resolved one of our local issues this week, thankfully. The solutions to this do not lie with the Department, if the Minister does not mind me saying so. Earlier today the transport committee had Stephen Kent from Bus Éireann in. When a problem arises in a constituency office, you learn as you work your way through it. If I was asked five months ago why we could not get drivers over 70 to drive buses, I would have probably said it is the Department of Education and we need to go the Minister. We quickly found out it is not the Department and it is not law; it is a Bus Éireann policy. Bus Éireann has decided to keep this rule and it is ludicrous that the morning drop-off to school and afternoon collection from school has to be done by a driver under the age of 70 but during the day, if a class is brought to the local swimming pool, match or cinema or on a school tour, the driver can be over 70. It makes no sense. The answer lies with Bus Éireann and is outside of Government but I hope the Minister will advocate for that. Many problems arose this year but we will find ourselves at the end of this academic year potentially facing more problems.

Deputy Norma Foley

It is a policy matter for Bus Éireann. The issue has been raised with Bus Éireann but that body is clear this is based on advice received from the Road Safety Authority. Bus Éireann has said it keeps the policy under review but it is its policy at the end of the day.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I briefly spoke with the Minister in respect of autism classes. I can think of two schools in my county, and there are many examples throughout the country. I respect it is more in the jurisdiction of the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. Ballycar National School and Kilmihil National School are in east and west Clare but could be anywhere. Both aspire to open ASD classes. An ASD class takes in six students and there is a teacher and an SNA. They are wonderful and have been transformative. I say that as a teacher and someone with a special needs person in my family. They have been incredible.

One problem is that the NCSE insists the class of six must be filled before any consideration can be given to additional ASD classes in the general locality. The two schools I mentioned are being told they cannot open new classes because there is a bit of capacity here or there over the road. That might make sense on one level but the NCSE is ruling out new ASD classes and insisting ones with remaining spaces at desks be filled. The problem that arises is children are being sent crisscrossing all over the county. There are children from Limerick city coming into north County Clare, driving 40 minutes to get to an ASD class when there are others nearby. Then there is the scenario where a child is trying to enrol in junior infants in September with an autism diagnosis. The child cannot attend the local ASD class because it is fill and over the road will not open one.

There needs to be flexibility. If an ASD class gets to four, surely that is reason to conclude it will probably get to six the following year. Flexibility is there in some scenarios but not in others. Too much say has been given to SENOs on what units need to fill and what classes can remain. I would love to see the Department get a grip on that.

Deputy Norma Foley

There are almost 3,000 special classes in the system now, which is quite phenomenal given where we were at three years ago. There are 68 special classes in Clare. Seven are new classes for the 2023-24 school year, five in primary and two in post-primary. It is not always true that six are needed to form the class but if there is capacity in the school next door the general suggestion is to fill one class. It is six students, one teacher and two SNAs. It is a very reduced ratio, as is right and proper. If there is no special class in the area and there are four or five students, then there will be a special class.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I apologise for using Deputy Higgins as an example. She is a Dublin Deputy and I am a Clare Deputy. Our situations are not comparable. Her neighbouring school could be 1 km or 1.5 km up the road, but in Clare - and I am sure it is the same in County Kerry, which the Minister represents – the neighbouring school, certainly in west Clare, could be 10 km or 11 km away. Children and cars are passing each other going to one ASD class because they cannot get into another. The school over the road which wants to open an ASD class has been told it cannot because there is one place left in Kilrush. It might sound fine from a policy point of view but practically it is not working. It becomes a disaster when a five-year-old child is trying to enrol in school, cannot get into the local school and is going 30 minutes up the road.

Deputy Norma Foley

I take the point. On the positive-----

Deputy Cathal Crowe

There are many positives, I should say.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----all new schools, particularly post-primary, will automatically have special classes. That is all the new builds and new schools going forward. We are trying to fill where we did not have capacity. It was never right that we had not adequate provision for special education. The best education is one that meets the needs of a child. I that is in a special school, it is a special school. If there is capacity to be in mainstream, then there is capacity to be in a mainstream special class or whatever the case might be. We have made enormous progress in the past three years. I take the point about people being discommoded in terms of going from one to the other, a child in one place and another child somewhere else. If the Deputy gives me the details relating to the two schools he mentioned, Martina will follow up on that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Thanks, Minister. You are very good.

I next ask about Ukrainian enrolment and, to a lesser degree, international protection. Among international protection applicants there tend to be more adults but there are a huge amount of Ukrainian children coming in and schools have to be commended for welcoming them with open arms and looking after them superbly. It is wonderful how they are welcoming children but there is also an obvious benefit whereby schools can grow, maybe appoint a new teacher and expand.

One of the problems is the transience of the Ukrainian refugee population. I am thinking of one school in my constituency. Some families were moved to another accommodation centre and suddenly the enrolment at the school collapsed. Can there be flexibility for those schools? They have gone above and beyond to cater for these pupils and suddenly because the international protection accommodation services, IPAS, or some other department moves a family to the east coast of the country enrolment collapses and a teaching post goes with it. Normally, schools have to hold enrolment until 30 September and then can look at a new year of staffing provision. The school I am thinking of doubled its enrolment. Half of the children are local Irish children who grew up in the community, the other half are Ukrainian. Leeway should be given to schools that have gone the extra mile to allow them to hold staff or to allow for that kind of transience and fluctuation. There is a local refugee centre. Could more latitude be given to those kinds of schools so that they are not rigidly confined to the 30 September date?

Deputy Norma Foley

There are more than 17,700 Ukrainian students and others in the education system at the moment. It has been an enormous feat by the schools on the ground to accommodate these students so seamlessly. It is also interesting to note that we have the highest enrolment in our schools in Europe, which is impressive. We now have more than 136 Ukrainian teachers in our system, who are registered with the Teaching Council. The Ukrainian language will be on the leaving certificate examination as a non-curricular language for June 2025 and so on. I absolutely accept that schools have moved heaven and earth to facilitate them coming.

It depends what kind of flexibility the Deputy is looking for. We have to recognise that if a school has a need a given time and it is removed, that need is somewhere else. We also have to have that element of flexibility. There is always a willingness to look at the situation in an individual school and to take on board the circumstances that might arise. That will not change. We will look at the individual circumstances of the school.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have almost finished. I will ask about two of the Minister's positive initiatives. She has just answered my question about the solar panel scheme so I do not need to labour the point. It will open tomorrow. I am looking forward to that. I commend the Minister on leading on that. In-school counselling has been rolled out on a pilot basis in many counties. I hope the Minister will tell the committee, if she has not already announced it, that the scheme will go nationwide because we need it to do so. It is incredible to think a child can go down the corridor to someone who is trained in psychotherapy or play therapy, instead of having to queue on a waiting list for months to go to someone outside the school. They are both incredible schemes. I would love to hear whether the pilot will be rolled out.

We need to stop pegging DEIS reviews against each census. The census rolls around on a five-year cycle. I can think of environments, especially towns with rental accommodation, where there is huge transience. I know of one house that two high earning medical professionals live in, but four months ago, the same house had two people who were struggling and availing of the social welfare system. There is that kind of transience from high to low income where both ends of the spectrum of household income is represented in one rental house. There is a huge amount of transience. Travellers move to transient sites. Ukrainians move to accommodation centres. The fluctuation in enrolment is huge. We are no longer in a static situation where a school has an enrolment of 220 pupils who all have a similar socioeconomic profile. That day has gone and our DEIS reviews need to not be pegged to the five-year census cycle. The worry is that the census captures a moment in time. A child who is in fifth or sixth class will almost have left the secondary school system by the time the data set is being used to determine the DEIS status of a school. It needs to be more fluid and flexible. I know the Minster understands because she worked as in the school system for a long time.

My two questions are about the census and DEIS and whether the in-school pilot on counselling will be expanded. I thank the Chair for his latitude.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will start with the second question. Some €180 million is spent on the DEIS scheme every year. We had the single largest expansion of the DEIS scheme last year at a cost of €32 million. One in four of our students benefits from DEIS supports, so it is significant. As regards going forward, I hear what the Deputy is saying. He is particularly invested in access to DEIS. An OECD review of DEIS is currently being undertaken. The reviewers were here during the summer and met the staff of a variety of types of schools. They are doing a full analysis of DEIS. The Department is also doing a forensic review of what is happening in our DEIS schools and the scope for and potential of schools that almost qualify for DEIS, but are outside it. That review may point us towards more flexible and resilient criteria going forward. It is valuable work that is under way at the moment. It should have a positive impact.

I know the counselling in primary schools is close to the Deputy's heart because he advocated strongly for it. As he will be aware, the pilot has two strands. The first is one-to-one counselling provision in a certain number of counties on a pilot basis. We secured funding to ensure it can continue. It is my aspiration that we will be able to roll it out to all other schools. Schools on the first strand have been notified, those eligible to provide the counselling have been identified to the schools and the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, psychologists are working with schools to identify appropriate students. The second strand involves well-being practitioners working under the guidance of NEPS. They have already engaged with NEPS and that activity will now also be rolled out. There will be great learning from the two different initiatives and they will inform best practice. Perhaps the two strands should continue nationwide or perhaps one should, but we will not know that until the full evaluation is done. We have sufficient funding for it to run in 2024 so that we can do a full evaluation.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I will start by welcoming the investment in the Department of Education, especially in the schools building programme, the Minister successfully fought for. I thank her for her leadership on practical inputs that have had a huge benefit for people's household budgets, such as the free school books initiative, free school transport and her collaboration with the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, to ensure that from next September any child aged over 18 and still in post-primary or alternative education will qualify for child benefit.

We in Dublin-Mid West are one of the main beneficiaries of the school building programme. Some 30 projects are being funded and due to be built in my constituency including new school buildings, existing schools getting extensions, rapid builds, adapt programmes, additional classrooms and special education needs facilities. This might not be the most appropriate forum for my next question. I have raised the matter in the Dáil a number of times through Topical Issue matters and Parliamentary Questions. I heard the Minister would be here today so I took the opportunity to reiterate to her and her senior leadership team how important these school building projects are for my community. There are many of them. I will provide the Minister with a list, although I am sure her Department has it.

I will mention in particular my former secondary school, Holy Family Community School, Rathcoole, that expected to break ground on a long-awaited building this year, but is still caught up in red tape in the Department. The Department design team sought final clarifications from the school and its design team, which were received in July, but more clarifications were sought after that. The bottom line is that there is still no approval for the school to start construction. There are stressed-out parents and children in the community, including parents of sixth class students who are in category 1 feeder schools, but are being told their children are far down on waiting lists for a place at their local post-primary school. We also have an entire school community of existing students, parents, staff and a principal who still have no update from the Department on when they will get their long-awaited new building.

There have been high-profile fundraisers and a call for interventions and that is what I am doing today. I am calling for the Minister to intervene in this and asking if she can seek an update from her Department on the school building projects for Dublin Mid-West, in particular the Holy Family Community School in Rathcoole. We have plans in place and designs that are ready. We have funding and the tender is at stage three. Everything is there and all they need is the go-ahead to break ground. The school tells me it has construction teams ready, in place and willing. We just want to see a bit of urgency around this and I am asking that the Minister inject in regard to the Department.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. She is quite correct that there is a very ambitious programme for Dublin Mid-West in terms of a variety of projects. The Deputy has articulated them very well. Right across the country there are more than 300 projects currently at construction. Some 40 of those are actually new builds and, all things being equal, we have a budget of €1.2 billion for the capital programme. It is a very impressive programme. That includes accelerated delivery of modular builds providing 5,000 places in mainstream and 1,000 places for special education. We have not been found wanting in terms of advancing school builds. With regard to the Holy Family Secondary School in Rathcoole, I hear the Deputy's absolute earnestness about it. I appreciate it is particularly special given it is her own school. We have 4,000 schools in the system. It would not be possible for me to give the Deputy an update here regarding one individual school but I will commit that the officials will come back to the Deputy with a specific update on it.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

I will put a question to the Minister before we conclude. Following on from Deputy Clarke, my question relates to the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra in Dublin 7 which the committee visited two weeks ago. I would encourage the Minister to do so, if at all possible. Being a former Minister I know it is hard to get time in the diary. The work that the school does is absolutely fantastic and I know it is eagerly waiting for its new school building. I know Deputy Clarke raised the issue with the Minister and that she and her Department will follow up to see where we are on it and will get back to the committee secretariat.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will for sure.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one or two issues. The school was looking for two full-time Irish Sign Language, ISL, interpreters to be employed. I know there is difficulty in getting interpreters and I do not expect a reply from the Minister now but will she follow up on that? I know there is some form of commitment from the Department to the school.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The other issue was school escorts. Some of the kids are travelling from Cavan and Monaghan on a daily basis and leaving their homes at 6.30 a.m. The Minister will recognise this is a very early start for any student. The issue of the school escorts was raised with us. Will the Minister comment on those issues?

Deputy Norma Foley

Absolutely. I guarantee that we will come back with a full update to the committee secretariat. Significant work has been done in terms of the ISL interpreters, particularly. I believe that Trinity College Dublin has specific courses. Does the Chair want Ms Mannion to come in on that?

An Cathaoirleach

No problem, yes.

Ms Martina Mannion

With regard to the Irish Sign Language scheme, as the Chair will know, we announced it last year. Up to 40 staff are to be employed by the National Council For Special Education, NCSE. There will be two new roles, the Irish Sign Language classroom assistant and the Irish Sign Language adviser. As regards the national campaign for the Irish Sign Language assistant, there are seven individuals on a panel which will now be available for schools to draw down and I know two have already been processed through that. As for the Irish Sign Language advisers, three advisers have been successful in the recent recruitment competition in that area and are going through clearance ahead of appointment. Overall, we would see the huge value of these new posts in our school system and will work very closely with the Holy Family School for the Deaf and the special classes who are catering for deaf students as well who we know will benefit from these supports.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. Does Deputy Clarke want to come in? No. We have a huge interest in this area and in this school and would appreciate information. That is positive news.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will come back to the committee secretariat on that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. Regarding the school transport review, we met the Minister, Senator Malcolm Byrne and a group of my own constituents last week. Does the Minister have a date for the publication of that report?

Deputy Norma Foley

To be fair, I know the Chair is hugely invested in this. I do not think there is a Deputy in the House who is not invested in this. I am really committed to getting this published as quickly as we possibly can. We have to engage with the Cabinet subcommittee and ultimately with the Cabinet and with party leaders. We are engaging with them so that a slot will be available to us at an appropriate time. We will need to make presentations and present what needs to be presented. I hope that will be done in as short a timeframe as possible. I wish I could give the exact date but we await the availability of dates from both the Cabinet subcommittee and Cabinet itself. I know they are equally invested in moving this as quickly as they can as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. On her recent announcement regarding the emotional therapeutic counsellors, which will be rolled out on a pilot basis initially, the committee visited the UK on this issue and saw the very positive advantages provided for school students and teachers alike. I thank the Minister for her call last week and for her and her Department's swift action regarding the incident in Dublin. I concur with the Minister's opening remarks to send our sympathies to all the people involved, especially the student and the special needs assistant, SNA. I think the Minister would agree with me and say it would have been fantastic if there had been therapeutic counsellors available in that school. It would have been even more swift if they had been available on-site for students to be able to avail of. When does the Minister expect to have further announcements on this? Will there will be some form of pilot for secondary schools as well?

Deputy Norma Foley

I fundamentally believe in the importance of this project. As regards the school and what was made available to it, our National Educational Psychological Service teams were in the school on Thursday, the day of the incident. They arrived at the school immediately after the incident and they have been there since. They engaged with the school over the weekend. They will be in the school for as long as is needed.

Putting that to one side, in terms of the bigger picture of the importance of this type of programme, as I said earlier, we have taken the opportunity to pilot two types of project. Maybe going forward both types will be available in our schools, different schools meeting different needs, or maybe it will be one or a combination of the two or whatever. We are taking the opportunity to get it right. I acknowledge that NEPS staff have travelled to various places, including the UK, and to the best of my knowledge will be back there again in terms of evaluating best practice in other places, similar to the trip the committee made. It is my ambition that this will be rolled out as far as we can roll it out. We will not do that without the learning we will receive from the pilot because it will be really insightful and will determine how we plan this going forward.

An Cathaoirleach

Tomorrow the Minister is officiating at an event in regard to school libraries in Trinity Comprehensive in Ballymun. I am unable to attend but I know others from the committee will be present for that event.

Deputy Norma Foley

Brilliant.

An Cathaoirleach

We all understand the importance of school libraries and school librarians and the real advantages of them. There are many other challenges within school buildings. I hope the issue of school libraries and school librarians is a very strong priority for the Minister and her Department. We all know the advantages they can bring in both primary and secondary schools. We all know the importance of reading and how a child can develop so much through reading and of having a librarian there to encourage them. Does the Minister have any plans for the further expansion of school libraries and librarians?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, an allocation of €20 million was made available to schools in the previous budget to ensure there was an opportunity for them to augment the availability of books or other resources in terms of promoting engagement with reading, appreciation of the written word and experience of the diversity of the written word, whether poetry, drama or otherwise. I believe it was €20 million very well spent to promote this culture of reading within school communities and, more importantly, what they will take home to their own communities.

With regard to new developments, I referenced that we have 40 new builds under way at present, notwithstanding what was done previously and what we will do going forward. All of our new builds have provision for brand-new library facilities. I am very clear in my own mind about the importance of cultivating reading within a school and supporting schools. For example, many schools choose to have the travelling book trolley.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, they have a mobile library on wheels.

Deputy Norma Foley

That is it. I could not think of the phrase. Again, that is working very well in schools. It ensures that young people have an opportunity to hold a book in the same way that they would have an opportunity to have it on a digital device. We are hugely committed to that. A significant investment of €20 million has already been made to support schools and we will certainly see what we can do going forward.

An Cathaoirleach

I will allow members back in for another round, if they wish. I call Deputy Clarke.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I wish to raise the issue of Irish Sign Language interpreters. The day the committee went to the school for the deaf, it struck me how difficult communication is for these children. There was one young woman who was a new attendee of that school, having gone through a mainstream school with support. While we may have thought about what the obvious difficulties were for this learner, what she said were her main difficulties were not what we thought. It is not a world that we live in. We live in a world where we can hear and we can verbalise our needs quite easily. I welcome this. I hope it is expanded further because the difference it makes to these young people’s lives cannot be underestimated. Other jurisdictions have carried out in-depth reviews around educational and academic attainment for students who are deaf. We do not do that at the moment. I do not agree with that and I believe it is something the Department should look at in the future in order to gauge and monitor this area. A fundamental part of that will be the availability of ISL translators. I hope it extends further.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister for all of her engagement. The real point of everything that I am pressing is the need for a degree of flexibility with regard to those ASD classes. The schools that I have referenced are Ballycar National School and Kilmihil National School, but there are many more throughout the country. To my mind, it cannot be so rigid that they can only take six, and if there is no space, people have to go over the road. That does not always work in a rural area. I can give the Minister detailed specifics on both school cases. I believe there needs to be a degree of flexibility and a degree of foresight, knowing that September 2024 and September 2025 will be different. We have to meet the needs of three and four-year-olds who will very soon be entering the primary school system. Both schools already have an incredible system to cater for special needs but this would be the icing on the cake. They are willing to do it, they are asking what the Minister is looking for and they are willing to drive this home. They just need a little flexibility and the whole thing will get set up. I thank the Minister for everything she is doing.

An Cathaoirleach

I concur with Deputy Clarke. If the Minister has time to visit the Holy Family School for the Deaf, she should take the opportunity. It is the most amazing school. I have visited many schools in my 22 years in politics but some of the funniest children that I have met were definitely there that day. They were very appreciative of our committee visiting to show them recognition. It is wrong to see children having to travel two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening to be educated. There are opportunities for them to stay.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

There are some who board at the school.

An Cathaoirleach

There are opportunities for boarding but many choose to travel back and forward every day. The conditions they are in, the work they do and the commitment of the students and teachers are unbelievable. To see two teachers who are hard of hearing who have just graduated and who are now teaching back in that school is fantastic. It is a very positive story. They just need the new school building, which is the most important thing.

Deputy Norma Foley

I repeat that I give an absolute commitment that we will come back with an update specifically in regard to this school. I will be very happy to visit at a time that is appropriate to the school. It is always a huge compliment to a school when somebody who was educated in the school goes back to teach there.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy Norma Foley

I meet that a lot when I visit schools. It is a very happy and positive story, and an enormous endorsement of the school.

I hear what Deputy Clarke is saying about the importance of ISL. We are very conscious of that and we are intent on driving that on as much as we possibly can. I want to reference the DCU bachelor in education for graduates of deaf and hearing schools, which is another positive. In other words, a transition should be available as well. A very strong body of work is being done around the transition from schools to further education, higher education or whatever the case might be. A body of work has been done around the ISL interpreters and there is more to be done there.

In terms of flexibility for ASD classes, I particularly hear what Deputy Crowe is saying about areas where parents have a child in one school and then have to go to the next school. There is flexibility and it does not have to be six if there is no facility within the area. The Deputy was specifically referencing where there might be one school in close proximity to another. The officials will revert to him about the two specific schools.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and her officials for the constructive engagement this evening. That concludes our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate on Vote 26.