Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Vote 26 - Education (Revised)

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Sorca Clarke. I remind members and officials to please ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting.

We are here today for the purpose of dealing with the Estimates. This meeting has been convened to revise the Estimate for Vote 26 – Education, which was referred to the committee by Dáil Éireann. I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, and her officials. I also thank them for the briefing documents they provided.

Before I invite the Minister to make her opening statement, I propose that Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan take the Chair for me for about 15 minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I ask the Minister for her opening statement. Members can ask general questions after that, with the first member being Deputy Jim O’Callaghan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan took the Chair.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I appreciate the opportunity to be here and meet with the committee for its consideration of the Department's Revised Estimates for 2024. I am accompanied by a number of officials from the Department.

These Estimates set out the allocations for the Department of Education under Vote 26. This includes funding for all of the services normally provided by my Department. Additional allocations are also included to fund measures to address some of the impacts Covid has had on pupils, the education sector’s response to the Ukraine crisis and the increased cost of living. A significant capital allocation is also included.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 26 provides for a net allocation of €10.466 billion. This is a gross allocation of €10.853 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €386 million. The gross allocation has increased by €828 million on the original 2023 gross expenditure allocations. The gross allocation includes €230 million of financial supports for Ukraine, cost-of-living and Covid-related measures. Our continued response to the Ukrainian crisis will be based on the number of additional pupils who have entered our education system in the past two years and the number who will enter the system during the course of 2024.

Excluding the Ukraine, cost-of-living and Covid-related funding, this increase in core funding in 2024 is €688 million, or 6.9%, over 2023. Of this increase, €333 million relates to increases in public sector pay and pension rates, including some provisional funding for the pay deals currently being negotiated. The Department spends more than €8.6 billion on pay and pensions. This represents 80% of the expenditure allocation. Almost 107,000 public servants and 46,700 public service pensioners are paid from these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure, school transport, capitation grants to schools and grants to other organisations and agencies.

In budget 2024, I secured a significant allocation for primary, post-primary and special needs education for the 2024-25 school year. This included important measures such as the expansion of the provision of free schoolbooks and classroom resources to include junior cycle pupils at post-primary level; increased capitation funding for day-to-day running costs of our schools; continued investment in school transport; almost 2,000 new special needs assistants and special educational needs teachers, extra supports for special schools and the provision for actions to assist teacher supply and middle management supports in schools; and the continued provision of the enhanced summer programme with an overall allocation of €40 million.

The budget also provides important additional funding for curricular and assessment reforms to progress our plans for senior cycle redevelopment and well-being and active schools programmes, which are rooted in the delivery of a modern, inclusive education system that puts the student at the centre of the learning process.

The expansion of the free schoolbooks and classroom resources to junior cycle pupils at post-primary level for the upcoming school year of 2024-25 will benefit 212,000 students. This will add to the 558,000 students currently benefiting in primary and special schools from the initiative that is already up and running there. This is an important further step in providing support to households in meeting cost-of-living pressures. Therefore, we are ensuring free books will be provided for all students from primary right through to junior cycle.

Extra funding is also being provided to primary and post-primary schools to deal with challenges they face in meeting day-to-day running costs. A total of €21 million in full year costs is being provided for a permanent restoration of funding for the running costs of schools, bringing the basic rate of capitation to €200 per student in primary schools and to €345 in post-primary schools.

The 2024 funding allocation makes the biggest-ever commitment to students with special educational needs and their families.

We are building on the progress already made with additional classes, teachers and supports. With an extra 744 teachers for special education and 1,216 new SNAs coming on stream during 2024, for the first time ever we will have more than 20,000 teachers and more than 21,000 SNAs working in the area of special education. There will be more than 40,000 professionals working in the area of special education. There are also additional supports being provided specifically for special schools. I am pleased to have secured such significant investment in our education system, thereby furthering the work of recent years in reducing class sizes, reducing costs for families, tackling disadvantage and supporting the achievement of all our students.

There is additional ring-fenced funding of €120 million to meet the cost of the education sector’s response to the crisis in Ukraine. This provides for the cost of hiring additional teachers and other supports right across the education sector. There are now more than 18,000 students from Ukraine enrolled in our schools and this number is continuing to increase.

Cost-of-living funding of €75 million is being provided to allow for the continuation of reduced school transport fees and a waiver of State examination entry fees, along with the provision for further social inclusion and teacher supply actions. This is in addition to cost-of-living financial supports of €150 million, provided previously to meet the extra running costs of schools arising in 2022, 2023 and 2024.

Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector will receive a total of €4.4 billion in capital investment over the period 2021 to 2025. This significant investment will deliver high-quality building projects, with a real focus on sustainability for school communities across Ireland. Capital planning and budgeting is undertaken on a multi-annual basis. The allocation of €940 million for 2024 will facilitate the continued delivery of school building projects and other measures.

That is just a flavour of the topics that are reflected in the Estimates. I hope I have been of assistance to the committee. I would be very pleased to address any queries that might arise.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan)

I thank the Minister and call Deputy O’Callaghan.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome the Minister and her officials and thank them for coming before the committee. Obviously, we are supportive of the Revised Estimates. In particular, I welcome the fact that €5 million will be allocated as part of the Covid-related allocation and spent on counselling services for students in primary schools. Does the Department have a view on the long-term impact of the closure of primary schools on children during Covid? Is the Minister aware of whether there is still a need for counselling services to be provided for children as a result of the closures?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. Right across society, we are conscious that there have most definitely been impacts from Covid. In the Department, we previously provided significant funding through the catch-up fund in order that additional resources could be made available to schools. This was so that they could decide what best met the needs of students. Equally, there is significant funding and increased opportunities for those who want to engage in the summer provision programme, which is open to children with additional needs, as well as those at risk of educational disadvantage.

Specifically in the area of counselling, there are views, including among many members of this committee. I also have a view, coming as I do, from a teaching background. Even before Covid, there was an opening for the provision of counselling services at primary school level. I am very pleased that we are rolling that out on a pilot basis. There are two strands to the pilot. On one, panels are formed in the pilot areas and the schools can draw down from those panels. That is currently being rolled out. The second strand being piloted is where the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, psychologists are working with well-being practitioners. The training for them has been completed. They are now beginning to be rolled out into the schools. I am pleased that we have two different types of models, as it were, so that at the end of the day we will be able to adjudicate which model, or maybe a combination of the two models, will best meet our needs going forward. It is a new step for primary education, but it is a valuable one.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I suppose that we will have an inquiry regarding the response to Covid at some stage. I hope it will not turn into a witch-hunt or trying to blame people for making decisions, because it was an extremely difficult time. Everyone recognises that no matter what decisions were made, there were going to be downsides to them. Yet, one of the issues that I would hope that any future inquiry would look at is the impact on children of primary and secondary schools being closed for such a long time. There is also an issue with regard to protecting the health of teachers. I am not asking the Minister for an answer on this. It might be helpful if the Department at some stage gave consideration to providing a response on what it thinks was the impact on children of the closure of schools for such a lengthy period. Doing so would allow us to learn from what happened. I do not know if there is any plan for the Department to do that. What does the Minister think?

Deputy Norma Foley

Our inspectors have done a considerable body of work in that space. That work is continuing. Every day, we are conscious of areas in which we can improve things going forward. I would not for one minute say there have not been impacts as a consequence of Covid. I outlined other measures, such as the summer provision and the additional class hours, that we provided. Right throughout Covid, the emphasis of the Department of Education was on following public health advice.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

There is a very strong view regarding all the necessary precautions that needed to be taken. Significant resources were provided by the Department in the form of PPE, hand sanitiser, reimagining the layout of buildings, etc. A great deal of work was done.

Huge credit has to be given in respect of the period during which there was a need for remote teaching and learning. We would be in a much better position to do both now than we were then, but there were excellent examples during Covid. Parents and guardians did a lot of work at home as well. When we look at international studies such as Progress in International Reading Literacy Study and the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, we can see that our students are performing in the areas of science, literacy and so on. The results of these studies were analysed after Covid and again very recently. Our students are performing at the very top level in comparison with their counterparts in other countries. There is a major acknowledgement of the excellent work that was done by schools in co-operation with families. It is a fair achievement for the education system, in the context of international comparisons, to see students succeeding at that level.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

On science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, grants, I recently visited a great school in my constituency, namely, Scoil Chaitríona on Baggot Street, which is a DEIS school. I spoke with the excellent principal there about many issues. One of the things she said was that the school missed out on a STEM grant while many schools in the more affluent areas of the constituency, where there are large voluntary contributions from parents, got grants. I accept that the Department had a difficult decision to make in this regard. Is there is something to be said for targeting grants, if they are limited - as they have to be - at the schools that are more in need of them?

Deputy Norma Foley

There are different types of grants that can be provided. There were grants previously for STEM, digital clusters, etc. Specifically on STEM grants, there was a phenomenal uptake. Some €1.5 million was made available. That was announced at the time as part of the application process. The overall cost of the grants would have amounted to €25 million had all applications been accepted. Final funding amounting to €4.7 million was made available. It is a huge testament to schools that there was such an uptake in respect of this. We will be looking at rolling out other funding streams. We will continuously review how it was done and different ways of doing it in the future. I am committed to that.

I must also say that we have a digital strategy for our schools, which goes right up to 2027. That includes more than €200 million, which has been made available to schools. Significant funding was previously made available in different tranches. I am aware of the work being done in our schools, but this is an area that we want to invest in. We want to put the maximum amount of money into it. It is an area that we will do all that we can to prioritise. There are many competing demands across the education sector, but schools are doing a huge amount of work in this field. I appreciate what that school said to the Deputy. It is our hope and aspiration to have another opportunity to roll out another type of grant and we will consistently keep under review how those grants are issued.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan)

We will now move to Deputy Farrell. The Deputy as six minutes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an Aire. Gabhaim buíochas léi as teacht os comhair an choiste seo.

I appreciate that the Minister has come before the committee to discuss these Estimates. It is really important that Ministers make themselves available.

I want to talk about STEM funding. A significant number of people contacted me about this matter. School principals had put a huge amount of work into applying for this funding. Some said that they felt it was very rushed towards the end. Of course, they also say that the funding was very welcome. The point that many of the schools raised with me was the fact that no DEIS schools in Galway city received funding. I will quote from a letter I got from a school principal. It states:

I am somewhat aghast at the thought that the STEM budget was so greatly expanded and yet our school failed to register in the STEM awards. The explanation regarding the choosing of schools is unclear. Can I ask at what stage did we fall in the criteria? I am asking today is there any sort of appeal process. We have been a DEIS school since DEIS came into existence and I notice that no DEIS band 1 school in Galway city was chosen. Surely the education gap will continue if DEIS schools are not considered in these awards.

People will say it is obviously very positive that there is a fund. I heard what the Minister said in that regard. Focusing specifically on DEIS schools and the additional supports required for them, will she respond to the comments made by the principal to whom I refer?

Deputy Norma Foley

As previously outlined, there was a phenomenal number of applications for the €1.5 million. I want to be clear and say that it was part of the application process. It was clearly outlined that €1.5 million was available. Maximum grants of approximately €10 million were made available. As stated, if all the applications had been successful, it would have cost approximately €25 million.

DEIS schools already receive considerable additional supports in comparison with non-DEIS schools. One in four of students attends a DEIS schools and 30% of our schools are in the DEIS programme. The spend on DEIS was more than €180 million in 2023. I take the Deputy's point that the school principal in question was very disappointed not to get access to this specific tranche of funding. I wish that there was more money available. Originally, €1.5 million was allocated. By the end of the process, the Department had put in €4.7 million. There was a constraint on the Department regarding the amount of money available to it. I am very happy to address the individual query highlighted by the Deputy.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I have already written to the Minister directly in respect of it. This is more about the fact that no DEIS school in Galway received funding. I also understand the way these processes can work, but I think the frustration came from that. I quoted one school principal, but a number of others contacted me about the situation relating to DEIS schools in Galway. These are very practical people who are doing their very best for their schools. They felt that their schools really needed this funding.

Deputy Norma Foley

I accept the Deputy's bona fides in the context of what she is saying. I do not want to take away from the excellent work being done by principals in all schools, be they DEIS or non-DEIS. Other schools look at the DEIS schools and see that they are getting considerable additional funding. This application process was open to all schools. As I said previously, we keep the entire system under review. It is my hope that we might have additional funding to run a second stream of this. We received 2,727 applications for the funding. We will keep everything under review going forward. I hear what the Deputy is saying, but there was a fair method used in the context of the process. It was fair insofar as no favouritism was shown to one school above another.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I would expect nothing less. We can discuss the matter further. It is a concern that I have at the moment.

I want to raise again with the Minister the lack of a secondary school on Inishbofin. From speaking to young families in particular on Inishbofin who want to continue living on the island, I have learned that the lack of a secondary school is a problem. It also makes it very difficult for people to move back there. This is because they know they will either have to move away from the island when their children reach secondary school age or send their children to Clifden and other places. This will have a severe impact in terms of the future of the island. It is very important that I raise this issue with the Minister again. If and when reviews are taking place regarding secondary schools, I ask that Inishbofin be considered. I am not sure how that process works.

Deputy Norma Foley

I accept that this topic is close to the Deputy's heart and that she has raised it previously. Education is part of the Government's islands strategy. On resettlement, I understand that the opportunities that are available are being considered. Mr. Hubert Loftus, who is here with me, is head of the Department's planning and building unit. The Department looks at the numbers and the viability. Notwithstanding that, particular consideration is given to the islands in the overall strategy because they are a unique part of our culture and we want them to be viable.

We have successfully looked at the role of technology on the education side of things.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

It works well.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. Perhaps there are opportunities to combine the two going forward. We do keep it under review and I will keep the Deputy updated.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank the Minister. That would be great

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister for attending and for her positive engagement. I have quite a few things I want to get through, so I will go straight into the questions. Will the Minister provide an update on the free schoolbook scheme for junior cycle?

Deputy Norma Foley

I mentioned earlier that there has been a very successful roll-out of the scheme in primary schools. We have taken an incremental approach from the primary schools right up to post-primary. The first step there is the junior cycle. The roll-out will be very similar to what has been done in the primary schools. Currently, we have a review of how things have worked in the primary schools and there will be some similarities in the secondary schools. An administration grant was provided to the schools to facilitate a nominated member of staff to take responsibility for the books. That worked very well. There was engagement with publishers and local bookstores. A lot was learned from the previous book rental scheme. All of this took place in the primary schools. There is also engagement at post-primary level with booksellers, bookshops and publishers. We are bearing in mind the strength of the response in primary schools in this regard.

We are looking at an investment of more than €67 million. It will be rolled out in time for the start of the new school year in September. There is a big difference between primary and post-primary, particularly in light of the diversity of books and skills at post-primary level. Funding will go directly to schools. This will be done in plenty of time for the uptake in September. The target in terms of the timeline is the end of March.

Autonomy is given to schools to make decisions when it comes to the books. If, for example, a school has an existing relationship with a local bookstore and wants to continue that relationship, it is entirely a matter for the board of management and the school. That is an important consideration because it is something that has been raised with me regarding primary schools as well. I want to be clear on that point.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

That is all very positive. The fact that it will be in place by September will be music to the years of so many families. I congratulate the Minister for leading on this. It has been very successful at primary level. It was a stress-free and cost-free summer for many families, so this is a good outcome.

The media will speculate as to when the general election is going take place. What is certain, I hope, is that there is one more budget left in this Government. Maybe in October, the Minister might take the next step and extend the scheme to senior cycle. Taking that step should at least be in people's thought processes as we move into the spring.

I hope the Chairman will bear with me because what I am about to say is very relevant. Earlier, the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, appeared before the Select Committee on Health to discuss his Department's Estimates.

I have been pursuing this issue for some time with the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and his Ministers of State. We are all familiar with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF. It works very well for the adult population. Many people have had cataracts treated as well as varicose veins. I have looked at the terms of the NTPF, but not exhaustively. I cannot see why it could not be broadened a little bit and perhaps used to deal with some of the backlogs were are facing with the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and with the child and adult mental health services, CAMHS, certainly from a diagnostic or initial assessment point of view. Therapeutic supports are different because they are continuous and one ideally needs to be receiving a therapeutic support nearby. The Minister, Deputy Donnelly, has pledged to look at it further. I believe it is a concept that at least should be looked at. I acknowledge that inroads are being made but it is one of those unusual scenarios where we have Department of Health functionality within the school context. It could be a potential game-changer if we could somehow, with private capacity, get some children assessed or on the pathway quicker. Perhaps some children could go to Northern Ireland if it meant getting them seen a lot quicker from the assessment and screening point of view.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate where Deputy Crowe is coming from. With the work of our own NEPS team we have been fortunate enough to have additional funding to ensure additional NEPS psychologists are being employed. In the last year an additional 18 have been taken on. In the coming months of February and March interviews are taking place for another tranche of NEPS psychologists. With regard to the flow of education psychologists coming forward, a bursary is provided by the Department. There were 15 graduates last summer from that programme. The bursary is worth about €30,000 to the students. During the summer 15 came forward, ten of whom are currently employed by NEPS, and I believe the other five are on various panels.

I hear what the Deputy is saying. All additional capacity is welcome. It is a field in which it is difficult to get people, hence our work with the bursaries. We also had the scaffold scheme whereby private assessments can take place and are funded. We are very happy to look at a wide variety of measures but the chief thing is getting a sufficiency of undergraduates who are prepared to take the course. It has been successful, from our point of view, to provide the bursaries. We are competing with other Departments in the whole psychology area but this has been a new step forward by the Department, which has been a good one. It is positive to be able to say that interviews are also taking place in February and March for additional posts.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister. There is also an issue, which I have raised with some of the Minister's officials in the last weeks. Knockanean National School in County Clare is one of a handful of 12 schools in the country that are to have their new builds led by the Office of Public Works. The Knockanean school was one of these. The project is at a very advanced stage and is with the devolved project section of the Department of Education. The new build is not the problem here really. The school needs to decant off site and to go down the road to a place called Gorteen. To do that they need temporary accommodation across a whole car park area. The school needs to relocate so that a new build can happen. They are waiting on sign off from the devolved unit. Ordinarily schools can sit back for a certain amount of time, they can wait and they can sit it out. It can be frustrating. In this case there is a particular worry because the planning permission could run out. This was a very complex planning case. Many of us in the county fear that if planning runs out and we will have to go back to the beginning all over again, we could end up with a protracted process with the local authority and with An Bord Pleanála. The delay of a few months now could become a few years.

I appreciate the Minister will not have the answer here today as I am only asking now, but will she ask the devolved project section to look at this school. They are going to have to approve it anyway. The ask is to approve it in the next couple of weeks. If we wait until March, which has been suggested, we are at a really high risk of outrunning the planning permission and the whole project, which is already funded, falling by the wayside.

Deputy Norma Foley

We will engage with the OPW on this. I have an official here from the planning and building section, so we can follow up directly with the Deputy. I hear the case the Deputy is making but we will engage with the OPW as well.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister. I will start my series of questions with a question I am asking for the third time, so the Minister will know what is coming. It is about the school transport review. I understand it is fairly advanced. Perhaps the Minister will give us an update in anticipation of the portal opening in April.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. I am aware this is particularly close to the Deputy's heart. It has progressed and the report is being completed. I outlined previously the process, which is that on completion of the report it goes to the Cabinet subcommittee. Following its views and whatever is expressed in the Cabinet subcommittee there might be an additional small amount of work to do. Then it goes on to Cabinet. I am pleased to say that it is scheduled to go before the Cabinet subcommittee in the month of February. That will move it on. Following what happens at the Cabinet subcommittee, there may well be a small amount of work, as I said, in terms of their recommendations and then on to Cabinet, and then it is out.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Very good. That is great to hear. Obviously the Minister is not going to reveal any of the content of the review to me this evening but I would just like to stress again that given the geographical handicap a number of villages north of Cork city find themselves in with distance and proximity to schools for students, are we still going to proceed with the kilometre-based assessment? Is there some fall-back or a special case scenario for areas like Carrignavar or Glenville and that triangle, which I previously referenced, so particular circumstances like that would be covered? I just wanted to stress this one more time.

My second question is on the recent NCSE report on special schools and special classes. Does the Minister have any thoughts or comments on that publication, if she has had any chance to read it, particularly in the context of colocation of special classes and schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

That is a very significant body of work and an important piece of work. The whole area of special education, particularly in the last number of years, has really evolved. It is a personal view in terms of how we move forward. There is a vision that there would be colocation, that is, there would be a mainstream school and a special school all within the one campus with a view to integration. There would be a better reflection of the comings and goings of society as well. I want to be clear that it is my view that there is always a place for a special school too.

With regard to mainstream schools, members will have seen the huge emphasis we have placed on additional special classes. We now have 3,000 special classes in the system. We have an investment of €2.7 billion in special education. We have 40,000 professionals working in the area of special education. The emphasis all the time is on integration and moving forward. We have been very fortunate with the level of engagement that has come from all stakeholders, and also the views and opinions of the general public. There is an opportunity here. We are already doing colocation. We have a number of schools on one campus in the Cork area that the Deputy will be very familiar with. That is a very positive way forward.

A total of 496 special classes are available in Cork, and 76 of the new classes for 2023-2024 will also be in Cork. There has been a huge explosion of services in special education.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I acknowledge the progress. To be fair, the majority of educators in Cork would genuinely acknowledge the progress made in school places over the last few years.

As an add on, and again I will be parochial, earlier in this term we highlighted a Cork City Council site that was being purchased by the Department for a special school in the Glanmire area. I understand there were some legal and other issues to resolve but it is two years on now. If the Minister does not have clarity on it this evening, perhaps she will come back to me on that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will come back to the Deputy directly.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Leading on from special education, it is great to see all the additional school places. That is being felt on the ground in Cork.

There is a distinct problem with therapies. I have mentioned it to the Minister before specifically in relation to the Carrigaline special school where they are essentially locked out of getting therapies from the local teams. I know it is more of an issue for the Minister for Health than the Minister for Education but there are still children who are in the education system who, just because of the patronage of the school, are finding themselves locked out of accessing those therapies. It might be a joint venture on which the Minister and the Minister for Health could work on to resolve this, even temporarily, until a lasting resolution is brought about. There are kids being deprived of services they are entitled to.

Deputy Norma Foley

I absolutely accept the Deputy’s points. From the Department’s perspective, we build the school, provide the staffing and resources but the area of the therapies falls within the remit of the Department of Health, as the Deputy said. I want to acknowledge Cork ETB’s work in the area of special education. It is important to say that.

We have the school inclusion model and what we have learned from that. It is only one CHO but we are hopeful that into the future there would be opportunities to embed the therapists who have been in that CHO into the NCSE, and the work they have done can be moved on to other schools and so on. There are opportunities there. I understand the difficulties and challenges for staff, parents and guardians and for the children who are not getting the Department of Health resources in terms of therapy. We have engaged with the Department of Health and will continue to do so.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I understand it is an issue with the Department of Health. The Minister paid testament to the work the ETB has done there and I would underline that. If I was the parent of a child and the ETB was to take on further special schools, despite the excellent work it has done, I would have to question whether that was the right place to send my child if those therapies are not being provided. That is just a point I wanted to highlight. I know it is an issue for the Minister for Health.

On leaving certificate reform, the Minister could probably talk for 20 minutes on it. Will she give us a whistlestop tour of where we are at? To be fair, there was a great start to it.

Deputy Norma Foley

In recent months, we announced the acceleration of senior cycle reform so that students who will be beginning their leaving certificate in September 2025 will be the first cohort of students with the new reimagined senior cycle. There will be nine subjects in that space. They will be the science and business subjects and two new subjects, drama, film and theatre studies and climate action and sustainability. I will park the two new subjects for a moment. The other subjects are out to public consultation until the end of February, asking for people’s opinions and views on what is being proposed in those subjects and the new type of assessment that will be included. There will be at least 40% assessment that will be completed before they take the final exams in June. That is to recognise that students have so many different skills that we need to find a variety of ways to measure the skills whether it is creating or crafting a film, conducting an experiment, an oral presentation or whatever the case might be. That is one reason to show their diversity of skills. The second reason is to ensure they do not have all that enormous pressure on one day or one moment in June. Things are moving speedily along. The other two subjects will also go out to public consultation very shortly. There will be a very rounded representation and everyone will have the opportunity to looks at the specs. It is planned that the CPD or training for teachers will take place well in advance in the 2024-2025 school year, before September 2025 for the roll out of the subjects.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come back to the Deputy but I have some questions now. The committee did a lot of work on the future of STEM in Irish education. A key recommendation in the committee’s report is that the proposed national children’s science centre in Earlsfort Terrace should receive full Government support to get up and running as urgently as possible. This would involve ring-fenced funding on a multi-annual basis. Some of those involved in the centre were in contact with the Department. I understand officials were to meet Áine Hyland, professor emeritus in UCC, and with other board members who had invested a great deal of time and effort into the national children’s science centre. While doing our report, I was struck by the dire situation where children are being encouraged to take up science subjects. If the Minister does not have the answer now, she might come back to us but can she confirm that officials from the Department met Professor Hyland? Has the Minister looked into this? Will she make it a priority in her Department?

Deputy Norma Foley

I cannot confirm that about Professor Hyland but I will revert to the committee on that. The whole area of STEM is hugely important. The Department does have a digital strategy. It is funded to €200 million up to 2027. There was significant funding for the whole technology area right throughout Covid. There is huge engagement in my Department around supports and resources but also promoting programmes such as the BT young scientist, SciFest, iWish and all these different initiatives. We have seen significant achievements by students in the world of science, including compared to students across the world. I would be happy to look at the proposal mentioned and we will get back on it.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Minister expand on senior cycle redevelopment? Specifically will she update the committee on the revised specifications for curriculum subjects? Will they be far more detailed as this committee has recommended? The committee has done some work on this in recent months. Will she give details on the additional assessment components, AACs, for students starting senior cycle from 2025? Will the AACs be incorporated into the leaving certificates eventually.

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to acknowledge the huge amount of work by this committee on the whole area of senior cycle reform and the valuable additional resources provided to the Department. As I said, in September 2025, the first tranche of nine subjects will begin. Seven of those subjects are currently out for public consultation on the specifications of what is involved with them. That is open until 23 February. The two new subjects will also be going out for public consultation. It is important that everyone will be able to look at it and make suggestions and have a view on what works and where there are opportunities to do things differently. I hear what the Cathaoirleach is saying about it being concrete for the staff who are teaching it and for the students to understand it and that would be my view. Heretofore, there was a lot of emphasis on specifications and on learning outcomes and perhaps more detail is required on the nitty-gritty, granular material. I am very clear on that myself; I was there when other new innovations came in to schools. It is very much the focus of the Department. Very substantial information will be provided to staff.

Significant CPD will be provided in advance to the staff. Our timeline is that it will begin in September 2025 in the schools but the training up of staff will take place in 2024 up to June 2025. I invite people, given that the first seven subjects are open up to 23 February, to take the opportunity to look at it and to see what their thoughts are. I acknowledge that we have had great engagement from the subject areas and the bodies which represent the various subjects and all of that. It is worthwhile to go online to see what is there. We will conclude that public consultation then with a view to moving everything along.

It also is important to say that we are in a position now to be able to announce an acceleration., which is very positive. Sometimes when we talk about reform and doing things differently, people feel it is so distant from them and that they never experience it. It is important to say that students who are currently in the system will be the first cohort within the senior cycle when they go into fifth year in September 2025.

The Chair also asked me about the additional components. The additional components are 40%. It is the plan that the specifications for that will go out to the schools very early and well in advance. If they are completing them in one year, these will go out the previous year and those specifications will be clear as to what is being done. Again, that additional component, or a new type of opportunity for students to show their skills, is an important and integral part of senior cycle.

An Cathaoirleach

I have two or three further questions in this regard. I have no doubt that the Minister has heard of the Fridays for Future group which has been in contact with the committee and with the secretariat. They have held protests outside various different schools and locations and outside Leinster House on different occasions. One of their asks is on climate change being very much part of the curriculum from primary school to secondary school. There is a significant whole-of-government approach regarding climate change in every Department. Does the Minister have plans to introduce anything on to the curriculum at primary and post-primary level? While there have been many changes regarding educating young people on the importance of climate change in existing subjects, has the Minister plans for specific curriculum change regarding this issue?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chair for that question. Specifically, one of the new subjects in our post-primary schools from 2025 will be climate action and sustainability. It speaks to the great interest from young people. I give full credit to them, as they have very much put it on the agenda. As a society, we are very much following their lead in many instances here. I also see in schools the phenomenal work they do around the Green-Schools initiative. There is nobody more conscious in schools about energy-saving initiatives and great work is being done by students in that regard. A cross-curricular approach is also being taken. I do not believe that any kind of learning should be just siloed into one particular subject. It needs to cross over into many different subjects. Similar issues are being drawn up in other subjects where that awareness is being flagged.

We also have the education for sustainable development strategy at primary level and it is being rolled out. We are very conscious of it but, as I said, I give full credit to the students themselves for the work they do in that space.

An Cathaoirleach

On the action plan on bullying, when leaving the role as Chair of this committee in the next Dáil or at the end of this Dáil or whatever, I can say that one thing or issue on which this committee has done a very good job is the action plan for bullying. I personally compliment the Minister and her Department for being champions on this issue and for taking on the committee's report and its importance. It is a significant issue in both primary and post-primary schools, especially online bullying, on phones and everything like that.

On that issue, most schools - I do not know what percentage but the Minister may be able to say - confiscate the phones when the pupils come in in the morning and they receive them back in the evening. There are still quite a number of schools which still do not remove the phone from students. Speaking to principals, vice principals, teachers and students alike, a great amount of that online bullying after schools stops because of the removal of phones. This puts a message in pupils' heads that, yes, they might carry on with online bullying after school, it is still going on, but I think the situation has improved. Students are more aware of it now than they might have been in the past. Can the Minister direct schools or is it the case that she just encourages schools to confiscate the phones from students in the mornings and they are then given back to them in the evenings? It is very simply done because I know that my own daughter has started secondary school this year. The phone is put into a pouch and the pouch is released later. I am unsure if there is a cost to that where some schools are not doing that. I am not sure what percentage of schools are confiscating phones. Does the Minister know the figure? Is there anything that we can do to encourage more schools to do that?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chair again for that. I want to be sincere in acknowledging the significant engagement of this committee in this area in driving that issue on. It was a good coalition of similar minds at a given time because the work of this committee was reflective of the agenda which I wanted to push myself. The great work which the committee did was very beneficial to us. I salute and acknowledge that.

On the cineáltas programme, it is very clearly about an inclusive and safe environment, one of well-being and a happy environment for students. We have been very clear that there are issues around the smartphone for many students. To be clear, there are enormous advantages to technology and to the smartphones, and this is not an anti-phone message, as specifically referred to by the Chair. We are, as the Chair will be aware, rolling out at present supports to the primary schools and we are starting there. We are inviting parents to consider not purchasing smartphones for students in primary school until they leave the primary school. As I said, this is not anti-phone, as they can get any phone they want, but just not the smart phone simply because of the issues the Chair has highlighted. We see the misuse of smartphones and children being open to content that nobody would want them to see and which they carry in their pockets all of the time.

We have provided guidelines to the schools and we are inviting the parents' associations here. This is an issue, and the Chair is right, in that this very much happens after the school day. As we want to be supportive, we have invited parents' associations to come on board with, perhaps, a voluntary code amongst themselves. We know that there is peer pressure there. If a number of students in a class have the mobile phone, the rest of them will also want them so that is an entire class buy-in. That is what we are doing on the primary school side.

The Chair is correct on the post-primary level, as different schools to different things. Some of them use the pouch and so on. They have the autonomy to draw up their own guidelines here but, again, we are suggesting to them that resources are provided by the Department. These are everything from webwise.ie to different groups and organisations and the safe use of the Internet is part of our programmes now. We will continue to work with schools in that space but there is a significant opportunity for schools to provide support. Equally, there is also is a significant opportunity for parents and families to support that work. We are looking to roll out information sessions for parents through our education centres. Some of those have started, I believe, in some counties. In Deputy Crowe's county of Clare, its education centre has already rolled out an information meeting for parents around the whole smartphone issue. I believe there has been one in my own constituency also and these will be rolled out across the country.

It is very important. The final thing to say is that the anti-bullying centre in DCU, is also being funded under the cineáltas anti-bullying initiative to look at the impact of smartphone restrictions on bullying behaviour. In other words, this will be an important body of work where it will look to see if there are opportunities for bullying to be reduced if access to smart phones is reduced. That is currently being rolled out with the co-operation of DCU.

We are therefore really active in the space and we want to move it on. We need everybody to sign up to it. As I said, the committee has done a lot of work on this as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I know everything is down to money. Is there a budget within the Department for schools to avail of pouches, etc.? Is that totally down to the school board of management to buy them?

Deputy Norma Foley

I hear what the Chair is saying. Funding is given to the school across a whole variety of different headings. There is capitation and so on. They have an element of discretion there. We can always keep everything under review and look at whether additional funding is available for anything. When I mention capitation, I can tell the Chair straight up that many principals will say they need that money for other things as well. I do not therefore want for one minute to be suggesting-----

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest a carrot-and-stick kind of approach to the Minister. If she said, for instance, that for the next 12 months, 25% funding would be made available for the cost of buying pouches, but it would be only available for one year, she might get more buy-in from more schools. It is only a suggestion.

My last question is a domestic one and is on school safety. A primary school in my area is on a national primary road. It is on the verge of a national primary road on the edge of a village. It is still within the speed limit restriction, but there is a huge safety issue. They have sought to buy additional land for parking at the back of the school. I raise the issue of funding for ground works - not for buying the site, but for ground works. I am not sure if funding is available through the building unit. Can they speak with the building unit regarding that? This is because of safety issues. I know there are many primary schools, but this school has sought land at the back of the school for safety reasons. It will require a substantial amount of money to get to the land through a laneway, etc.

Deputy Norma Foley

I hear what the Cathaoirleach is saying. Have they have engaged with the local authority there?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

What about CLÁR funding?

An Cathaoirleach

We do not have CLÁR funding. County Wexford is the only county that cannot reach out to CLÁR. We are the only county in the country that cannot get CLÁR.

Deputy Norma Foley

Well, you learn something new every day.

An Cathaoirleach

I have had that argument. If we wanted to go for CLÁR funding, many other counties would not get it.

Deputy Norma Foley

Fair enough; that one is gone. The Cathaoirleach can give us the details and we will look at it from a planning and building point of view. Yet, just to be fair, that is probably the first step-----

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----that we would have said. However, I would be happy for the Cathaoirleach to give us the details.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. If Deputy Crowe wants to come in, I will let him in just for two seconds.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Today is D-Day for many children who apply to the Limerick common application system. There are 17 schools within that system. I taught sixth class for many years and this was a day of much excitement but also lots of anxiety. It is a worrying time for youngsters because in most Irish towns, a child can go to a primary school and their local secondary school. This is not the case in Limerick and the surrounding communities in Clare and County Limerick as well.

I have been getting texts this evening from parents, some of whom have had great news and some who have not had such great news. Everyone gets an offer, but sometimes people can be offered a school way out in Pallaskenry, County Limerick, and if you are from County Clare, that is a long distance. Sometimes they hit the jackpot and they get the local school they desire.

So many people in Clare are going to Limerick schools. I went to one myself, namely, Ardscoil Rís. There is no catchment school in south-east Clare, where there is a population of approximately 15,000 people. When you come up from south Clare and get into the Sixmilebridge, Newmarket on Fergus and Shannon catchment, there are two secondary schools, namely, St. Patrick’s Comprehensive, Shannon, and St. Caimin’s Community School. These are both incredible schools, but enrolment limits are put on them by the Department of Education. There are so many students trying to enrol in schools, and yet there are limitations on them getting in.

I do not expect an answer from the Minister tonight, but her officials might look at it. The town of Sixmilebridge sits somewhere between that belt of County Clare near the Limerick border. It is south of the Shannon area. It is the obvious place, with its huge population growth, for a new secondary school. The analytics of that need to be looked at. I just totted up the local primary schools, which have a combined enrolment of 2,183. Surely, we should be looking at an additional school in that pocket around Sixmilebridge. I would love to see an analysis of that.

Deputy Norma Foley

We engage with all the stakeholders through forward planning, etc. We look at the local authorities and know their projections. We look at housing developments and many other different things in forward planning or future planning. I cannot give the Deputy a specific answer on Sixmilebridge and whether there is sufficient demand there. I will have to revert to the planning and building unit and will come back to the Deputy with more detail on that. They would obviously have to identify a core need in the area.

I hear what the Deputy is saying about people going from Clare into Limerick. There is always the issue of people being close to the border. There is a new ETB school in Limerick as well. I hear what the Deputy is saying specifically about the Clare area in terms of Sixmilebridge. I will revert to the planning and building unit and come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Because of those enrolment restrictions, children are now applying within the county for schools. The local schools are full. They are applying in south Clare for Ennis. The obvious thing is for a new school somewhere around there. Sixmilebridge fits that more than others.

Deputy Norma Foley

Are the two schools the Deputy has referenced both in Shannon?

Deputy Cathal Crowe

One has an enrolment cap and the other one does not, but it is very constrained at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

The director of the building unit is here. We have had many clashes------

Deputy Norma Foley

Go for it.

An Cathaoirleach

I will not let Mr. Loftus off the hook. Can he give us an update on the Holy Family School for the Deaf, Cabra, which has been a topic here for us all. Does Mr. Loftus want to come in on this? It is a hobbyhorse of mine, as well as many other members of the committee. I am very fortunate that I have three healthy kids. If I had a deaf kid, he or she would deserve the absolute very best of what we can do for him or her. Can Mr. Loftus give us an update?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Cathaoirleach for that question. This is an important project for us; it is a priority project and it is part of our pipeline. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, is one of our key delivery partners and is a top-class outfit in terms of delivering projects. That project is part of its pipeline and has a design team. It is in the early stages of design. Just recently, the design team has been formally appointed to that project. That design team now is starting the work on the design process. The initial stage 1 design is to examine options. Certainly, I am confident in the quality of the team the NDFA uses, as well as the large design team and their experience, which they will bring when working on the project. It is on a good track to move forward.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. While I am always hearing people saying we are approaching the end of this Government, we are not as we still have a long time to go.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thought you were going to say the end of the session.

An Cathaoirleach

I would really appreciate the Minister’s support on this as well. Could she keep their officials on this? It is a fantastic facility out there. Kids are coming from different parts of the country and they deserve the very best.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, I appreciate that.

An Cathaoirleach

There is also the issue of the provision of sign language interpreters for the Holy Family School for the Deaf. The Minister can come back to us if she does not have the information. She can come back to us with a with a written reply.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and her officials for the constructive engagement at the meeting this evening.