I presume this section relates to CBF and other bodies that are either dissolved, partly dissolved or whose functions have been transferred. Will the Minister indicate what will be the position of the staff and senior management in CBF? Will they take up positions equivalent to their present positions in terms of seniority on this new board, assuming their remuneration will be equivalent to what they have, if not better? If the Minister wishes to share any secrets with us as to whom the chief executive officer and chairman will be, he should feel free to do so.
SECTION 46.
Question proposed: "That section 46 stand part of the Bill."
Section 47 (1) states:
Save in accordance with a collective agreement negotiated with any recognised trade union or staff association concerned, a person who becomes a member of the staff of the Board pursuant to section 46 or to an order under section 9 shall not, while in the service of the Board, be brought to less beneficial conditions of service (including conditions in relation to tenure of office) or of remuneration than the conditions of service (including conditions in relation to tenure of office) or remuneration, to which he was subject immediately before becoming such member.
There is a safeguard written into the legislation on that level.
Will the Minister define what "less beneficial conditions of service" means? I understand "tenure of office" and I understand "remuneration".
Could we dispose of section 46?
I am concerned about transferring the staff unless I know the conditions to which they are being transferred. Perhaps we can discuss sections 46 and 47 together and pass them individually.
I take the point that sections 46 and 47 are related. Obviously, there will be negotiations and involvement by trade union staff associations. This is a statement of principle on what happens so that people cannot become less well off. I suspect that an amount of the detail will be worked out at trade union and staff association level. I am not avoiding the question but I cannot answer with absolute clarity. An amount of this work will be done while the interim board is in place in the run up to establishment day.
My concerns really relate to how the Minister will recognise seniority in certain management positions in these bodies, particularly CBF, and reflect that in the structure of the new board. How they can end up in a less beneficial condition if they do not have the equivalent management position in the new board I do not know. I am trying to understand the expression "beneficial condition". Does it mean that a senior manager, chief executive officer or chief executive will have the same ranking? What does it mean?
The negotiations will take place between the new board and its staff within the guidelines laid down in the legislation. What individuals may feel is in their best interests within that context is something they would very likely agree with the board. An amount of teasing out has to be done. This is a broad statement of principle and I will not pre-empt or anticipate exactly what the board will do because I cannot do that. It is a substantial safeguard that people should retain conditions which are no less benficial than those they work in at present.
I do not disagree with what the Minister said but I cannot understand how it will work unless he introduces a generous redundancy package along with all of this, which is what he may have in mind. If what the Minister is saying is brought to its logical conclusion there will be a couple of chief executive officers and a couple of managers because two boards are being dissolved and everyone is going to maintain the same seniority and conditions. Two into one will not go, so I am trying to tease from the Minister what he has in mind to resolve this.
In the first instance we are dissolving one board. The food unit from ABT will become part of An Bord Bia.
The food unit of ABT is being dissolved?
Yes. In the context of An Bord Glas, I am not certain that there will be any staff transfer involved because the export functions of its overall operation at this point are minimal.
We are looking at CBF.
CBF is the board which is being dissolved but the other elements are being added. For practical purposes in the context of the new situation, it is the board——
The Minister has effectively told us who the chief executive officer and the other position holders will be.
I have told the Deputy nothing.
The replacement of ACOT and An Foras Talúntais by Teagasc resulted in a great deal of difficulty. I am certain that the people who will be negotiating the setting up of An Bord Bia will have learned a great deal from that experience. I was involved in that situation and appreciate the difficulties which arose. All the employees are fairly well protected by section 47. Everybody may not be doing exactly the same job they were doing in their previous places of employment but I am certain that the Teagasc model will be used, or at least trotted out, during the negotiations.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 47 agreed to.