Subsection (2) states:
Until such time as the scales of pay and conditions of service of persons transferred to a company under section 38 are varied by the company, following consultation....
Would the Minister consider putting in "and agreement" there because consultation does not mean agreement?
That is not necessary. The provision here is the standard provision which applies to the protection of the rights of staff where new State companies are being established. Section 39 essentially provides that the pay and conditions of staff cannot be worsened by virtue of the establishment of these companies. It provides for consultation and agreement with the respective trade unions or staff associations.
The reference to consultation in subsection (2) is adequate because, of course, trade unions and staff associations have means through the industrial relations machinery open to them for the resolution of any dispute where agreement is not reached.
I accept the spirit of what the Minister is saying but it does not always follow, particularly in new companies when there will obviously be an attempt to bring about change. It will certainly be necessary to have agreement with the trade unions involved and not to impose any changes. Some employers may believe that consultation alone will give them the right to introduce change and that could create difficulties.
The Minister should ensure that the principles in place now are applied in whatever new companies are set up. It is in that vein that I will ask the Minister to consider including that, perhaps on Report Stage.
I appreciate what Deputy Fitzgerald is concerned about but if he looks at subsection (1) he will find that the pay and conditions of the employees of these companies cannot be worsened. The term "collective agreement" is used in subsection (1) so there cannot be a worsening of the pay and conditions of the employees of these companies unless there is an agreement to do that. Subsection (1) specifically states that "Save in accordance with a collective agreement negotiated with any recognised trade union or staff association", and so on, the conditions may not be worsened.
Subsection (2) applies to circumstances where conditions will be improved. In those situations it is adequate to provide for consultation with the respective trade unions or staff associations. Clearly, in the course of those consultations, or discussions and negotiations arising from them, there is in the industrial relations machinery, dispute resolution mechanisms which can deal with any dispute that arises in relation to those matters.
We want to be absolutely clear, however, that the Bill protects the conditions of employment of the staffs concerned. They cannot be worsened as a result of this Bill unless there is an agreement to some worsening of conditions, so the rights of the employees are absolutely protected in this section. As I said, it is a provision which has now become a standard one in the establishment of companies of this type.
Is that accepted?
The Minister has fairly well clarified the position. In view of that I accept what he has said.
