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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 2008

Annual Output Statement 2008.

I ask committee members and officials to ensure their telephones are switched off for the duration of the meeting. If we have not concluded by 5 p.m. a further meeting will be arranged. Is that agreed? Agreed. I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with responsibility for science, technology and innovation, Deputy Jimmy Devins, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with responsibility for trade and commerce, Deputy John McGuinness, and officials from the Department, Mr. Gerry Donnelly, Ms Sandra O'Reilly, Mr. William Parnell and Mr. Martin Shanagher.

I propose we begin with the Minister's opening statement followed by the opening statements of each of the Opposition spokespersons. The Minister's speech is substantial, which will be helpful, and I thank her in advance for it. We are more than amenable to it being summarised if she wishes to do so. It covers many areas and there is potential for questions in it.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to present my Department's 2008 Estimate and annual output statement. I apologise about the mix up but we are here and we will work through it. I am sure all committee members are anxious to get out and canvass so we will cut to the chase.

I hope committee members appreciate that as this is my new portfolio, pro forma I ad lib on my speeches but I will do my utmost to provide a cursory viewpoint of the issues and the speech will be taken as read. Deputy Devins is also new to his post. The Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Billy Kelleher, sends his apologies. He is returning from Luxemburg and cannot be here.

I can state without fear of contradiction that the Department's remit extends across a wide range of activities and is crucial to developing the economy and supporting business, while at the same time protecting workers and ensuring fairness of competition. The brief, which has been circulated to members, itemises my Department's 2008 Estimate allocation by subhead, and shows the corresponding Estimate and outturn figures for 2007.

The Department's annual output statement for 2008 has also been submitted to the committee for its consideration. As the committee will be aware, the annual output statement is a fundamental part of the Government's drive to reform the Estimates process and to set out more visibly the return on the investment of public funds in key services and programmes.

The annual output statement breaks down the Department's Estimate over seven key programme areas and sets out targets for each of these. It also provides details of the progress made against the targets which were set for 2007. I am glad to report that the Department met or exceeded most of its targets for 2007. The annual output statement also provides explanations for the small number of areas where the outcomes were not as high as expected.

There are some differences in layout between the annual output statement and the structure of the Department's Vote as published in the Revised Estimates Volume. My officials are exploring with the Department of Finance how changes can be made to the structure of the Vote to bring it more in line with the layout of the annual output statement. This will be of great assistance to the members of the committee in their deliberations on the Estimate in the future.

The Estimate of net voted Expenditure for 2008, which I present for the committee's consideration, totals €1,492.917 million. This sum is made up of €998.033 million in current expenditure and €494.884 million in capital expenditure. Appropriations-in-aid in my Department's Estimate will amount to €95.439 million in 2008, giving a gross expenditure from Exchequer sources of over €1.588 billion this year. This represents an increase of 5% on the 2007 Estimate and 9% on the provisional outturn for last year. In addition, a sum of €23.428 million is included in my Department's Estimate by way of carry over of capital savings from 2007.

The committee will note that the national training fund will contribute €409.907 million on top of the Exchequer allocation to my Department this year. This fund is used to upgrade the skills of the labour force through training and research into future skills needs. The annual output statement also provides details of our own resource income which the Department's agencies expect to generate this year. This income, like the national training fund, is additional to the voted Estimate and will amount to over €257 million. When all sources of income are taken into account for my Department's programmes, the total gross expenditure for 2008 will amount to €2.255 billion.

I will outline some of the key objectives for the use of these funds, as set out in the annual output statement, starting with the area of science, technology and innovation. The rapid globalisation of trade and competition which is being driven by new technologies is creating increasing pressure on Irish companies to innovate and develop new products and services. The competitiveness of enterprises and of Ireland's economy as a whole will increasingly be driven by innovation and knowledge. Increased and continuing investment in science, technology and innovation activities will be crucial to Ireland's future economic success.

The Government is committed to investing in this area through the Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation 2007-2013. That strategy constitutes one of the principal pillars of the new national development plan. Over the lifetime of that plan, the State will invest €8.2 billion in science, technology and innovation in a whole-of-Government approach. The allocation to my Department up to 2013 will amount to €2.75 billion.

The science, technology and innovation programme area of my Department's Vote, which is funded under subhead F, supports the Department's activities under the science strategy. These activities are delivered primarily by Science Foundation Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. IDA Ireland also has a complementary role to play in promoting research and development through its activities under the enterprise development programme area of the annual output statement.

Enterprise Ireland's primary objectives under the science strategy are to get more firms involved in conducting research and development, to increase the amounts of research and development that existing performers are doing and to raise the quality of research and development they carry out. Enterprise Ireland is also working closely with the research community to maximise the commercial potential of research for the benefit of the economy.

Science Foundation Ireland is working to build and strengthen scientific research in the areas of greatest strategic value to Ireland's long-term competitiveness and development, namely biotechnology, information technology and communications technology. Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland both work to promote greater collaboration between academia and industry to develop world-class research and systems.

For 2008, gross funding for science, technology and innovation in my Department's Estimate, including the Department's own administrative and support costs, will amount to just over €333 million. This represents an increase of €43.3 million, or 15%, on the provisional outturn for 2007. In addition, €4.226 million will be available for this programme area from the carry over of unspent capital allocations in 2007.

In addition to supporting the activities of Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland, funding is also available in this programme area for the Discover Science and Engineering programmes, the Tyndall Institute, the Irish Council for Bioethics and the Irish Universities Association. The costs of the patents office are also included in the funding allocated.

Pages 5 and 6 of the annual output statement clearly indicate how the expenditure has been managed and the enormous contribution it has made to our client companies, of which Enterprise Ireland has 617. A total of 42 client companies achieved in excess of €2 million in research and development in 2007. The target for 2008 is 45 companies. In 2007, 45 research and development investment projects were approved by IDA Ireland. The IDA aims to fund a further 55 such projects this year. During 2007, a new strategic research cluster programme was launched. Under the programme, 12 research clusters were funded, three times more than the number envisaged at the start of the year. These are exciting and innovative new projects. Science Foundation Ireland made a total of 570 awards across its main programmes in 2007, an increase of 14% on its target for the year. In 2008, Science Foundation Ireland will continue to fund the eight existing centres for science, engineering and technology and plans to make awards to two new centres.

A further objective for the current year is to promote awareness of the new EU seventh framework programme with a view to optimising Ireland's involvement in that programme. During 2007, the Cabinet committee on science, technology and innovation agreed that the total share of EU funding to be targeted by Ireland over the lifetime of the programme should be in the region of €600 million.

These programmes combine into a very exciting agenda for science, technology and innovation. The resources are available for investment, with inputs at industrial as well as academic level. Overall, the investment in science and technology for industry in my Department's Estimate will enhance innovation and competitiveness, increase output and promote employment.

Members will be familiar with the enterprise development and competitiveness programme area, which funds activities carried out by Forfás, IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, Shannon Development, the city and county enterprise boards, the National Standards Authority of Ireland and InterTradelreland. A small amount of funding is also provided for the monitoring and evaluation of related EU co-financed programmes. The objectives of this programme area are to optimise competitiveness and growth by promoting entrepreneurship, all-island enterprise collaboration, foreign investment in high value added manufacturing and services activities, scaled increases of exports and balanced regional development. In complementing the work which is being done in the science, technology and innovation area, the enterprise development agencies will be focusing on supporting companies with high growth potential.

Total funding available for the enterprise development and competitiveness programme area in 2008 amounts to €650.944 million, including own resource income of €245.3 million which the enterprise development agencies will generate. The Exchequer contribution is €405.581 million and includes the cost of the staff of my Department who oversee the work of the agencies. The Exchequer allocation in this programme area represents a 13% increase on the 2007 outturn. A further €6.65 million in Exchequer funding is available from capital savings carried over from 2007.

The enterprise strategy group report, which was published in 2004, presented a vision for the development of the economy. A core focus of Enterprise Ireland's new strategy is the development of Irish companies and increasing exports. The agency has set an ambitious target of achieving €4 billion in new export sales from Irish companies over the period of the new strategy. Companies assisted by Enterprise Ireland have experienced export gains of €1.025 billion in 2007 and the target for 2008 is €1.28 billion in 2008. The agency also supported 70 high potential start-up companies in 2007, bringing to 221 the number of such companies funded over the three year period 2005 to 2007. This was above the target of 210 companies which was set at the start of the period. We aim to support a further 66 high potential start-up companies in 2008. Other notable achievements by Enterprise Ireland in 2007 was the approval of €6.74 million towards the creation or expansion of 22 community enterprise centres and the introduction of an innovation voucher initiative to drive an ongoing innovation culture shift. In the 2007 pilot phase of the initiative, 428 companies were approved vouchers with a total grant allocation of €2.14 million.

The 35 county and city enterprise boards, which are probably close to members' hearts, will also continue to work with smaller Irish enterprises to achieve growth in the indigenous sector. In 2007, the boards supported 945 companies, engaged with 11,500 students in enterprise education and attracted 21,000 people to training events. The entrepreneurial skills within these boards are highly important. In 2008, the boards aim to support 1,000 companies.

For their part, IDA Ireland and Shannon Development will work to maximise the quality and number of foreign direct investment projects in Ireland. Last year was very successful. Over 9,000 new jobs were created and total employment in the IDA sector was 136,000 jobs. Some 60% of those new jobs supported by the IDA had wage levels in excess of €40,000 per annum, so members can see the target is at the higher end of quality jobs. The IDA has supported companies with annual sales of over €95 billion, which export almost €91 billion in goods and services and spend over €15 billion directly in the Irish economy. This is very important to us. The IDA approved 114 new investments from new and existing clients, who are investing approximately €2.3 billion in the economy over the coming years. The strategy is for enhanced regional development and 64% of investments in 2007 were located outside of Dublin. The IDA has a target of 122 investment projects, with over 60% to be outside the greater Dublin area.

Members are all very familiar with Shannon Development, which attracts foreign direct investment. Shannon Development approved ten investment projects in 2007, twice the target number set at the beginning of the year. We will also fund InterTradelreland, one of the North-South bodies, where it is envisaged that €70 million in trade and business development value will be achieved in 2007 resulting from supporting InterTradeIreland's business networks and programmes.

The capacity of firms to innovate and achieve high growth is dependent on the quality of our labour force. The presence of a well educated, highly skilled and adaptable workforce has been one of the key factors in attracting foreign industries to set up here. However, we need to continually evolve and improve the quality of our products and services to be competitive and we need to invest wholeheartedly in improving the skills and knowledge of the labour force. We have a specific Minister of State examining that strategy. It is complementary to the objectives of the science strategy to develop a knowledge-based economy. The aim of the labour force development programme, as set out in the annual output statement, is to contribute to continued economic success by supporting ongoing training and upskilling.

Expenditure on labour force development under my Department's remit in 2008 will amount to over €1.13 billion. This represents an overall increase of €30 million, or 3%, on last year's outturn. The figure includes €410 million from the national training fund and €10.5 million in income generated by FÁS from fees. Funding under this programme is provided for training and employment programmes operated by FÁS, Skillnets, Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Shannon Development and a small number of other organisations. The majority of the funding will be channelled through FÁS.

Members can see a number of the targets set down in the national skills strategy, including promoting active labour participation by marginalised groups. For me, there will be a particular focus on disability and we have a Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, trying to achieve that. The national skills strategy has long-term objectives on human capital, upskilling, training and education. I assume there will be a considerable amount of discussion on FÁS so members of the committee can take the activities shown as read. On the basis of considerable amounts of money in FÁS and given the changing economic climate, all the Ministers will vociferously discuss the roles and needs of the workforce and work closely with the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

In parallel with promoting the development of enterprise, my Department has an important role to play in protecting the rights of workers. Significant commitments were made under the social partnership agreement, which represent the ethos of the Department and the programmes funded in the overall allocation. The activities funded are the Labour Relations Commission, the Labour Court, the Employment Appeals Tribunal, the National Employment Rights Authority and other activities aimed directly at promoting social partnership, including the national framework committee for work life balance policies. It also funds the Health and Safety Authority.

The National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, has made substantial progress since last year. There are 80 or more labour inspectors compared with 31 at the beginning of 2007 with support staff also being provided. The head office is in Carlow and there are regional offices in Dublin, Cork, Shannon and Sligo. We are also very much involved in an information campaign on employment rights.

Last year, NERA recovered €2.5 million in arrears due to employees as a result of its work. In addition to the National Employment Rights Authority there is the appeals tribunal, the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission. These are very much part of the employment rights and industrial relations mechanisms under my Department. One can see the number of cases that have been dealt with.

On health and safety, apart from protection in legislation governing employment hours and conditions, employees have a right to work in a safe environment which is not hazardous or injurious in any way. Unfortunately, 67 workplace fatalities have been recorded, an increase on the 2006 figures. Although it is below the 2005 figure, one workplace fatality is too many. Through information, support programmes and training, perhaps we can try to ensure a turnaround. Some €24.4 million has been allocated under subhead T for that.

On commerce, consumers and competition, this very much underpins markets and ensures they operate in a fair and efficient way, and that competition is promoted. It is balanced with consumers' interests. The commerce, consumers and competition programme addresses these objectives. The activities support the Companies Registration Office, the Competition Authority, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the National Consumer Agency, the Register of Friendly Societies and the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority. A small grant is also made to the Consumers Association of Ireland. The priority in gross funding will amount to €37.712 million from own resource generated, a 17% increase on the 2007 outturn.

We can see that regulatory bodies that are supported include the Companies Registration Office and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. Their outcomes are detailed in the written submission. The Competition Authority has a role in promoting compliance with legislation, particularly in the area of the IAASA and the accountancy profession.

I am sure we will have a further opportunity to discuss the National Consumer Agency, NCA, which was formally established on 1 May 2007 under the Consumer Protection Act 2007. The allocation for the NCA for 2008 is €10 million, representing an increase of almost €3 million, or 41%, on the 2007 outturn. The statutory remit, as the committee knows, deals with the issues of enforcement, advocacy, research, consumer information, education and awareness. The agency has been very successful in identifying and addressing major areas of concern in its first 12 months of existence on a statutory footing. For example, it has dealt with sales scams, product safety and price transparency.

There has been much coverage of prices in the national media and I have expressed my serious concerns on pricing policies, particularly the exchange rate for sterling and how it affects the consumer. We will ask people to make choices and shop around but that being said, I met the director general of IBEC and the director of Retail Ireland on 28 May. I also met senior representatives of Retail Ireland on 4 June. The committee met some of these people as well. I have expressed much concern about the benefits of the euro rise against sterling. We had a good meeting, strong and firm, but we will continue to pursue vigorously the important issues for the consumer.

The industry has given a commitment to securing a satisfactory outcome for Irish consumers. Considering the last week to ten days, there has been movement on prices and we will work again over a number of months on the issue. There are other priorities relating to commerce, consumers and protection, including the reduction of administrative burdens and reviewing the operation and implementation of the Competition Act, which we have discussed and I look forward to deliberating further, particularly as Parliamentary Counsel has been appointed to draft that legislation. We will deal with it all in due course.

We are underpinning all these programmes through the output statement, including the area of delivering strategic goals. We have a Vote, an outcome and an outturn and we have benchmarked them against the strategic goals of the Department. We have received high-level goals that are supported by the human resources and information and communication technology services in our Department. These activities did not feature as a separate programme area in last year's annual output statement but the 2008 statement sets out a number of targets for this year. The cost of those ancillary services in 2008 will amount to €18.91 million compared with €17.2 million in 2007.

There are other service headings, including the cost of research studies for the Department, subscriptions and so on. Committee members can take them as read and the total Exchequer allocation for 2008 is €19.932 million.

I hurried through a number of the extensive programmes but that is no reflection on their importance. I thank the Chairman for giving me an opportunity to outline the ambit of the programme. I will do my utmost to answer as many questions as possible but beg for indulgence on this occasion — I am sure I will not get it next time. I thank committee members for affording me the opportunity to present this Estimate.

I thank the Minister for her presentation and have some questions to ask, though I would have liked more time to get my head around this matter.

The Deputy was canvassing too hard.

Indeed I was, I came here from a meeting where I argued against Ms Caroline Simons and Mr. Richard Boyd Barrett. It is nice to get back to the real world. I think the debate went well and I have bet money with Paddy Power bookmakers that there will be a "Yes" vote of over 54% in the referendum.

Is Deputy Varadkar also betting?

I certainly am and I hope to cash in.

I will quickly run through the programmes on labour force development. Given today's figures, where the live register broke 200,000 for the first time in eight years, I believe we will speak more and more of the potential for people to find employment in the coming years. I am always concerned about how outputs work in Government; for example, the number of training days is seen as good in itself, and the same goes for the number of qualifications. We should be looking at the outcomes that are of benefit to people participating in the schemes, as well as to taxpayers and consumers. Clocking up a number of training days is not actually a benefit if it turns out that the training programmes are not particularly useful or do not achieve the real objective, which is helping those involved find employment.

In section 2 of the outputs it says 6,900 people have been referred to training programmes and 32,000 have had employment action plan referrals. How many of these people went on to gainful employment? That is the real outcome. The outcome is not the number of people on a training scheme or using an action plan; the real outcome is the number of people who get a job. I am interested to know what the figure is in this regard. I believe it may be less than 20%.

The targets for employment rates for 2008 are, in fairness, genuine. Does the Minister feel she will meet these targets relating to 70% of the overall population, 62% of women and 54% of other workers?

Section 4 relates to the processing of employment permits. Perhaps I live on a different planet to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment but I would like to know how the idea of work permits being dealt with in 15 working days is measured. This has not been the experience of anyone in business and it takes forever to get work permits sorted out. How are the 15 days calculated? Does it run from the time the application is received or from when it is posted? When does the clock start because I have not met anyone who received a work permit in 15 days or anything like that? When does the clock start and stop?

Regarding employment rights, has consideration been given to consolidating the different pathways? There are so many ways to have one's rights actioned that things are quite confusing for businesses and employees at the moment. For example, there is the National Employment Rights Authority, the rights commissioners, the Equality Authority and the Employment Appeals Tribunal. There are a million different pathways. The Labour Relations Commission agreed with this committee that there are many ways to have rights actioned. Has consideration been given to a proper consolidation of employment rights and employment rights pathways, perhaps using only one authority to do this? Such an approach could also prove more efficient.

On programme E, commerce, consumers and competition, the Minister indicated that one of her Department's priorities this year has been to reduce the administration burden on the business sector arising from the Department's range of responsibilities. Besides setting a target recently, precisely what measures has the Department taken this year to achieve this objective? How much has the burden been reduced by these actions and how has this been measured? I seek real outcomes rather than words.

Does the Minister anticipate the introduction of a competition (amendment) Bill either this year or next year? When will we have such legislation and what will be its contents?

On outputs, according to the statement, the Consumer Protection Bill has been enacted. Which sections of the Bill have not been commenced and for what reason? When will the outstanding sections be commenced?

On the Companies Registration Office, CRO, the staff of which has increased, will the Minister comment on the number of companies being struck off involuntarily? I understand the director of a particular body has requested additional staff. People always ask for more staff in the knowledge they will not all be sanctioned. There appears to be a major emerging issue with large numbers of companies being struck off the companies register involuntarily.

Is the Deputy referring to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement?

Yes. It is clear the Director of Corporate Enforcement is not pursuing thousands of involuntary strike-offs and, as a result, creditors are required to go through an expensive legal process in the courts to have companies reinstated on the companies register. It appears this matter is not being addressed. While I expect substantial resources would be required to do so, it seems the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement has ignored or washed its hands of the issue.

I assume the workplace innovation fund is administered by the NCPP. Is that correct? I am confused as to the reason this allocation features in the budget of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment rather than that of the Department of the Taoiseach. What measurable outcomes does the Department expect to secure from this fund? An interesting advertising campaign is under way, which shows a man and woman walking around a workplace and flashing neon lights calling for partnership in the workplace and so forth. I am sure it will be very effective. What precise outcomes does the Department expect from the workplace innovation fund and how will they be measured?

On grants for the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed, while I do not know much about the organisation, which I am sure does a great job, it appears to be the only non-governmental organisation to receive funding from the Department every year. Is this a hangover from the era of mass unemployment? What are the criteria for funding NGOs? Must they make an annual funding application? Is there a special reason this NGO receives its own budget line year-on-year from the Department? I am not commenting on the value of the work it does, I am merely curious about the process involved.

I am probably a little mixed up with regard to the figures for FÁS because the figures before us refer only to voted figures and do not include the training fund figures. If that is correct, the true allocation to FÁS would be closer to €1 billion than the figure supplied.

The figure is €1.1 billion.

That is approximately twice the figure supplied.

The training fund feeds into the larger figure.

A sum of €439 million, a phenomenal amount of money, has been allocated for employment programmes. Skills will be a major issue in future, especially given my suspicion that when the economy recovers in three or four years the new jobs created will probably have to be taken up by immigrant workers. The reason is that we have 200,000 or 250,000 people who do not have the skills to take up new economy jobs and we have an agency, FÁS, which spends €1 billion per annum and does not appear to show any results in terms of moving people from being unemployable or underemployed to being employable. What outcomes does the Minister expect from an agency with a budget of this size?

I thank Deputy Varadkar. He made only a couple of points but they were comprehensive.

The Deputy's questions were diverse and I will begin with the first. He is correct that the Central Statistics Office is releasing figures on the live register this afternoon. Ultimately, it is not a measure of unemployment but a measure in the context of the overall labour force. There has been an increase in the unemployment rate, particularly because of the changed economic climate. In the 1980s there were over 200,000 unemployed, amounting to 12% or 13%, while today, considering the growing population and growth in the number working in the workforce, the figure is still at 4.6%. In saying this, I do not detract from the fact that anyone who loses one's job or finds oneself redundant finds it very traumatic.

I will impress upon my colleagues that interaction and activity occur very quickly. We have changed the active participation threshold of six months to three months with a view to dealing with the throughput as quickly as possible. My philosophy has always been that the less time people spend at home worrying and considering what they should be doing, the better. It is best to support them in trying to do something. The ethos is commensurate with the needs of the people.

The Deputy referred to outputs and training programmes, which are very diverse. There is in-house training in the companies themselves and there are programmes available for upskilling and changing career. In conjunction with the VECs and FETAC, different types of programmes are made available to those returning to work. This is not to mention some of the courses teaching some of the very basic sills. There are many links between FÁS, the VECs, FETAC and the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The Chairman will be very familiar with this. The main concern is whether we can go a step further. I have asked that we consider more stringently the interaction between the companies, big and small, and the FÁS employment services. I need to see a transfer from one to the other.

We have had good outcomes. There is now a greater need to ensure that the link between companies and FÁS services will be created. Interaction with FÁS was very regional, if not county based, some years ago, as opposed to being focused on the economy as a whole. We discussed this at the time. I aim to ensure that we will work towards focusing on the economy as a whole.

FÁS will have a considerable role considering the changed economic circumstances. Key to this is ensuring that we retain the key skills and that they will still complement the economy. Instead of running superfluous training programmes, we must ensure the needs of the economy are supported in whatever training programmes are made available. We must continue to have a skill base although we might be encountering some economic difficulties. Thus, when we have the opportunity to turn the economy around, the skills will be available.

On employment permits, there is a consumer service target. I am sure the Deputy will not tell me he is writing to me looking for permits. This was one of the most comprehensive debates we have had. There were difficulties associated with unemployment, yet we were anxiously seeking to obtain employment permits. While I am being somewhat facetious, I will not detract from the fact that difficulties arise on occasion. There is a baseline of 15 days. As the Deputy knows, many submit applications without providing all the required documentation. We have examined the issue of refocusing the permits. From a customer-service perspective, we will try to facilitate this.

I almost hesitate to say that there is sometimes an odd privilege associated with being a Member of the House. There are not too many and we might consider whether the Deputy's proposal could be facilitated within the overall framework. We used to apply the advocated procedure to social welfare matters and passports. Perhaps this is an issue I should examine on behalf of Members of the Oireachtas.

The Deputy is concerned with the consolidation of bodies dealing with employment rights under one authority. When efficiency reviews are undertaken in the Department, they must be real and tangible, particularly on any amalgamation of the bodies under my Department's aegis. Reviews can highlight cases of overlaps between bodies. However, I must also balance this. In cases where one body has a regulatory role and another a consumer protection role, for example, a situation cannot arise where one body overrides the other. That is why care must be shown in these reviews.

It should also be remembered the Oireachtas agreed to the establishment of many of these organisations. I do not come from the school of thought that politicians and the Civil Service are not the people to do particular jobs. I believe in making decisions and being accountable for them. One criticism is there is no interaction between the independence of a group and the political head. There are many issues that need to be removed from the political framework and Civil Service, especially where different competencies are needed. What the Deputy referred to could be considered under the efficiency review of the Department.

The Minister of State will bring together the issue of simplification and the reduction of administrative targets. We are of the view that not more but good regulation is needed to entice foreign direct investment and show pro forma that we can live up to the reality of economic conditions. Reducing the administrative burden on companies will be important, particularly for SMEs. The two past budgets introduced some measures aimed at this. Other real and tangible ideas in this area will be examined.

A review of the Competition Authority Act is under way which is at public consultation phase. I replied recently to a parliamentary question from the Deputy on the consumer protection Bill. Our legal opinions may differ on this. However, the legal opinion available from the Attorney General is such that we cannot proceed. An undertaking was given by the former Minister that if there were another format in which these issues could be dealt with, it would be examined by the Department.

The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement continues to target the phenomenon of companies being struck off. These are companies which have never been placed in liquidation but dissolved and struck off the companies register. The office has carried out several investigations to establish if the companies in question had outstanding liabilities. In such cases, legal action has been taken against those companies. Ten directors have been disqualified involving several companies which have been struck off.

That is a pretty small number.

Approximately 2,200 people were listed on the register of disqualified persons, an increase on the 2006 figure which was 1,780. Progress has been made but perhaps not as much as the Deputy would like.

Much of the policy framework, such as the workplace innovation fund, implemented by the Department is based on social partnership agreements. Strand 1, managed by Enterprise Ireland, was rolled out in April 2007 and supports companies to develop strategic capacity for change. The first applications were received in August 2007. Up to 22 companies have been approved to date. The fund is expected to run over three years to the sum of €6 million.

A second strand, for which €0.45 million has been provided, is for IBEC, CIF and ICTU. Several projects on workplace learning, human resources best practice, employee financial involvement and alternative dispute resolution will be included in this strand. This culmination was the result of social partnership. This was very important to the social partners and they wished to follow it through. Overall, under this strand, some €500,000 has been allocated this year.

On the INOU, the Chairman and I went to see its representatives four or five years ago, if I recall correctly. Its role is still relevant, it gives a good deal of support to people and is based in the inner city. It is an advocacy group and has done much work. Unlike previously, its input is not often heard about these days. There are strong links to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It supports people as regards employment rights and new opportunities, and essentially targets a very vulnerable group of people who might not necessarily be comfortable about entering a VEC or FÁS training programme. Its role is more in community development and it has continued to exist as the relic of old decency. However, the INOU is audited and there is an annual report and review. I have met its representatives on a number of occasions and they advocate on behalf of people, particularly those who are very vulnerable.

On FÁS, enormous amounts of money are made available under the employment skills programmes of CE and JI. I know they are close to the heart of many Members of the Oireachtas. Some €439 million is provided for those schemes and they are still enormously beneficial to communities from a skills and self-esteem perspective as well as involving people, many of them women, in workplace environments, which will hopefully encourage them to move on and get other opportunities.

I am in training, and I do not know whether I have answered everything the Deputy asked.

As regards the 2008 employment targets and outcomes, I am sure the INOU does a very good job, but I was asking what procedures allowed some NGOs to get a budget while others do not.

It was always part of the Department's remit.

It is historical.

It is historical if I recall correctly.

There are other groups, or NGOs, that might be equally deserving that do not necessarily get help.

It goes back to the old Department of Labour, where there was an NGO interaction, and this was carried over.

The key concern I have as regards the Minister's answer on FÁS is that I do not consider the referral to a training programme to be an outcome. An outcome is where somebody gets a job.

It is an outcome and I can dispute that. The first outcome is that there is a transferability as regards people being unemployed — in relation to unemployment assistance, unemployment benefit, etc. — into an activation programme. That in itself is an outcome. Moving into a skills and training programme is an outcome and much of this is supported by people such as VETAC apprenticeships, for example ECDL, so a qualification is attached. That in itself is an outcome. The next step in taking that outcome is people going into third level, further and future education or into a job.

Why is that not measured here? We can agree that it is a step towards an outcome. Why is the end outcome not there?

I believe in the view of pathways to progression. Many people have been left out of the system and the Deputy would be very surprised by the number of people taking their leaving certificate at 40 years of age. At the other end of the scale are highly-skilled people who have not been able to adapt to the needs of the economy. It is a question of how this might be done, and very simple things can help. I do not have details on the overall outcomes, because this is a matter for FÁS, but I am sure we can get this specific data for the Deputy.

It is important to know where many of the 61,000 are, six months or a year later, relative to the same period a year before. It does not help anyone if they are exactly in the same position.

That is all followed through, as regards outcomes. I hope, most particularly, the five of us will be working through those outcomes and seeing the progression. As I have said, there is a need for greater interaction between the employment services sector and the people involved in those companies where there are vacancies.

On employment, members will see the output for 2007 was achieved; 69% was the target, 69.9% was achieved and it is our aim and expectation to reach 70% this year. On employment rates for women, 59% was the target in 2007 but we achieved 61.5% and we have made a target of 62% for this year. For older workers, 53% was the target in 2007, the outcome was 53.9% and we have a target of 54% for this year. We hope we will be able to achieve those targets and we will drive towards that. The targets are the means by which we will work towards what our outcomes should be.

I want to speak on behalf of the Labour Party. The Leonardo programme for educational training and skilling is being upgraded. This committee may make recommendations in regard to a report we dealt with this morning. Is it possible to tap into an environmental employment initiative which this committee is following up with regard to vocational skills and training? My colleagues will know from where I am coming, having discussed the report. This is one area we might be able to tap into.

With regard to FÁS, one of the major cribs I had with the Minister's predecessor — the Minister's officials will know immediately from where I am coming — is the cap on community employment schemes, particularly given the current economic climate. The Minister spoke about outcomes to Deputy Varadkar. The cap was fixed in 2004. When a person reaches 55 or 56 years of age and has three years on a scheme, or four years in special circumstances, why condemn that person to social welfare when this often makes it more difficult to get employment?

No one knows better than the Minister that such people have made tremendous contributions in urban areas but particularly in rural areas, where they are life savers. They feel happy and contented to make that contribution and they have some reason to get up in the morning. They work their 20 hours and some even work extra voluntary hours, for example, at a football pitch, community centre or elsewhere. Why stop there? These people will go back onto social welfare in any event. It is foolhardy economics.

The Minister should lift the cap and allow those people to continue in the scheme. The Minister will reply that this prevents other people getting into the scheme but many of the people in the scheme need this help and need to be allowed to continue. If other opportunities had been available to them during the real economic growth of recent times, they would have been taken. This is utopia for some people. It is their achievement, their contribution and their sense of peace, for want of a better word.

I appeal to the Minister. Her predecessor gave the stock ministerial or bureaucratic reply. I abhor bureaucracy, which is about wondering why something cannot succeed. If I was a bureaucrat, I would look at it the other way round; I would ask how I would facilitate getting something through. A book was written on this subject by an American. This is my view and I represent others who also hold that view. I am very eager that this issue be tackled. According to a report today, the rate of unemployment now stand at 5.4%, or 208,000 people. It is a worrying trend. Let us lift the cap because that is what is needed.

On the question upskilling, which is also the responsibility of FÁS, let us not make any more errors. Can the Minister offer a commitment to provide opportunities for workers to improve their skills? As Deputy Varadkar said, although we are currently experiencing a downturn, we will need people with plumbing, electrical and carpentry skills when the upturn arrives. Now is the time to open up opportunities for people rather than closing them down. It will take three or four years to train 18, 19 and 20 year olds, at which point, hopefully, the economy will have recovered. At that point, we must have the skilled people to step into these roles.

Upskilling is extremely important. I understand there is a commitment to provide such training to 500,000 people by 2020. Deputy Varadkar has raised this point on several occasions and I do not wish to steal his thunder. Let us advance this programme. The year 2020 is the outer perimeter and we must work consistently to bring it forward. People should be helped to rise at least one or two notches in the context of the national framework of qualifications.

It is extremely important to facilitate people with disabilities in accessing the labour market. As a former holder of the social and family affairs portfolio, I urge the Minister to raise the bar in this regard.

In regard to employment rights, I understand the Employment Law Compliance Bill 2008 was published in March or April. How soon will the Bill come before the Houses? It will not happen this session but I would like an indication of when it will be dealt with in the next one. Will the Minister explain the reference to a national framework committee for work life balance policies? What is the function of this body and how much has been allocated to it under the Vote?

It is not for our benefit.

I assumed it was not.

On the question of consumer interests, nobody works as hard as the staff in the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. They put in incredible hours, with some working beyond midnight. Is the Minister satisfied there are adequate resources in terms of personnel numbers? Mr. Appleby and all his officials are extremely hard-working. I commend them on the amount of work they do, which is not recognised by everybody.

Representatives of the National Consumer Agency recently attended a meeting of the committee. We do not get many opportunities in my area to read the Evening Herald, but I read a report in it last week, on my way home from Dublin, which argued that the agency should be abolished. This seemed harsh given that it has only been in operation for one year. Under the decentralisation programme, only a certain number of the agency staff will move with it. Is the Minister satisfied there will be adequate personnel to allow the agency to carry out its functions? The representatives told the committee of their activity in a broad range of areas about which the public has no knowledge. One such example is the car market. In some instances, the agency is achieving solutions more quickly than would be the case in going through the entire panoply of court procedures. It is working well in this regard and in the area of advocacy. Its remit is wide. It is important that it has the personnel and resources to continue this type of work.

I understand the Minister intends to publish a company law consolidation and reform Bill to consolidate the existing Company Law Acts by the middle of 2009 for implementation some time in 2010. Would that be the target? We will try to facilitate the Minister in every way. This is extremely important in doing business and enabling business to progress and be knowledgeable. Since 1963 I do not know how many pieces of legislation — 17 or 18 — have been passed. It is complex, with approximately 1,100 or 1,200 sections. The Competition Act 2002 has caused us some angst, headaches and pain and we have clashed with the Competition Authority here. We saw section 4 of the Competition Act being used for a purpose for which we never thought it would be during the pharmacies dispute. No legislator who participated in the debate ever envisaged the Act being used in that way, particularly with a national policy involved. We are very eager to influence the Act and have an opportunity to have an input. The Competition Authority members were cross-examined vociferously and sharply by members. The Minister can rest assured that we will have an input to ensure what we thought was its objective is pursued.

I am not speaking out of turn for my colleagues; they will speak for themselves. That is as fair as I can put it. The Minister need not answer all my questions. I want to allow my colleagues to speak and they may have cross-over questions.

I thank the Chairman. I congratulate the Minister and wish her well in her new portfolio, with the Ministers of State, Deputies McGuinness and Devins. If the reports from Deputies who dealt with the Minister in her previous post are even half true, we will all be happy bunnies.

A Deputy

We could eat them.

The Dubs did not believe it; Deputy Andrews should ask country Deputies who would tell him all about it.

They were evangelical in their praise of the Minister.

I welcome support for the city and county enterprise boards which have consistently helped communities and small start-up businesses and are very important as times become a little more uncertain. The same applies to the Skillnets scheme. I welcome the Minister's comments on work permits. If there was a scheme by which Members of the Oireachtas could have a dedicated service to obtain information, it would be very helpful. The work permit system is stifling many small businesses from expanding and developing, particularly in the service industry.

I welcome the Minister and wish her all the best in her new portfolio, with both Ministers of State who have much experience to bring to their posts.

I raise the issue of the ongoing employment of older people. This is probably a continuation of a point the Chairman made on CE schemes. There is a need for innovation. My experience is that in recent years an increasing number of people who have reached retirement age are not ready to sit back but want to continue and contribute further. We must be innovative in how we approach this issue, perhaps through the social welfare system. I see from the Minister's other statements that she is examining working with other Departments to progress it. There is a significant pool of experience we can tap into, particularly in upskilling younger people, educating them and using the experience gained by the older population. This is not necessarily academic experience but life experience. The Ministers of State have responsibility for lifelong learning and the Department could consider innovative ways of changing that issue.

On FÁS, and specifically regarding apprenticeships, in the current tight climate we are increasingly coming across young lads and ladies in their second or third year of apprenticeships who are now being let go. There is no follow-up and there is nothing there for them. It is not like it used to be, when there was an onus on the employer to keep the apprentice for the full term. FÁS is looking at trying to liaise with employers in general about apprentices.

It is an area that needs to be tightened up. The requirements and criteria for achieving an apprenticeship, whether in electronics, woodwork or carpentry, are higher than they used to be. Applicants require at least a leaving certificate to become an apprentice. We are asking kids to stay in school and at least get to their leaving certificate, particularly in the areas in which I work in the inner city.

In a part of the North Wall area last year, for the first time ever we had 15 young fellows who did their leaving certificate, which was a significant achievement, and 11 went on to apprenticeships around the city. When a young person gives that commitment to stay on in school and take on an apprenticeship, only to find in the second or third year he or she has been let go or there is nothing there, there must be some kind of follow-up. This could be getting such people into some other area or trying to source other employers. It needs some firming up with FÁS on how it can be improved.

To follow up the Chairman's point on consumers and the consumer agency, I congratulate the Minister for her recent hands-on approach and for getting involved in the issues. As the Chairman stated, we met the agency. We are public representatives dealing with consumers every day, and it sometimes appears the agency is reactive rather than proactive. When an issue arises, the agency jumps at the publicity surrounding it. There may be some way it can look ahead.

As the Chairman stated, it is looking at different areas and it must consider a wide range. I do not know if the agency can commit manpower to a particular section but it should look ahead to where the next problem will arise. I agree totally with the Chairman that the agency is totally committed to dealing with the issues. Perhaps there is a way of pre-empting some of the matters that arise.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, and the Ministers of State, Deputies McGuinness and Devins. My Cork colleague and Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, is not here. We had a very interesting meeting this morning on the WTO. The Minister, Deputy Coughlan, would know much about it and praise was heaped on the Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, for what he achieved in meeting other Ministers across Europe.

I would worry about that.

If we have a "Yes" vote, I know who to attribute it to.

I was looking through the capital programme and I have a few questions and comments. There is a significant increase in the capital programme for the industrial sector, which is going from €569 million to €768 million, an increase of about €200 million. We have 4% of the world's service industry in Ireland, if that figure is right, which is a great achievement for us with what is going on with the WTO. I am concerned that with all the money being spent, we are ignoring the unskilled people in society, where jobs are being lost.

We can talk about upskilling until the cows come home but we cannot upskill everyone. There will be a number of people in our society who will never be upskilled. My colleague, Deputy Cyprian Brady, referred to apprentices. I remember this House in the bad old days of the 1980s, when apprentices were given apprenticeships but did not qualify. There was buoyancy in the economy but no apprentices. Rather than give people dole, unemployment assistance and other moneys, facilities should be put in place to train them and give them skills. There will be brighter days and the economy will not always see the downside. We should upskill people, whether they are blocklayers, plasterers or anything else. In the 1980s people looked for jobs in only three sectors — nursing, teaching and the Garda. I remember those days clearly because I was here for those sessions and there were apprentices everywhere who could not get apprenticeships. I appeal to the Minister, as a pragmatic and able person, to create a scheme to train people for brighter days because there will be such days.

There is a multiplicity of job-creating agencies and it is time a specific group was put in place. I have a list of these agencies before me. FÁS is the only one which creates jobs but few jobs are being created. The biggest area of job creation in the country is the State sector, on which €200 million has been spent under the Government's capital programme. I have no praise for these agencies because I do not know what they do; they have too much autonomy outside government.

Regarding the Competition Authority, the committee recently went on a national tour, led by the Chairman. Thurles was the first port of call. There we met misery and misfortune arising from the decision of the Competition Authority on the closure of Erin Foods which was taken over by Campbell's and then Premier Foods from the United Kingdom. Premier Foods is likely to go belly up shortly, if we are to believe what we read in the newspapers. The right-wing policy of closing companies based on competition law is not acceptable. My colleagues have also referred to pharmacists in this regard.

Small businesses have been screwed by the Competition Authority to the benefit of big businesses. In the long term no competition will arise from these decisions and the authority should be harnessed somewhat. It is an agency which is a law unto itself and does not report to anyone. Thurles lost 80 jobs and other towns are affected too. This matter aggravates the Chairman as much as me. The employees were merely making a few barrels of soup and 80 jobs were lost. It is not good enough that such a decision can be taken by a State agency which operates outside the Government's control. Those in charge of the authority do not seem to understand Irish society, the workings of the labour force, farmers or communities. Something must be done or more decisions will be taken by the authority that will adversely affect life in Ireland.

The Minister has responsibility for the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. There was a debacle which received much press coverage that involved DCC and Fyffes and a great deal of money was made by someone. We were not in the know and no brown envelopes were involved.

Have we privilege in this House?

What is the role of the Stock Exchange in such matters? Is it a self-regulatory system? It is the job of the Stock Exchange, rather than the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, to police these matters. There is insider trading and outsider trading and we often hear and read in the newspapers of what goes on in London where there is a tougher system in place to control the sale of shares, equities and so on. This question may seem unfair but I understand it is part of the Minister's responsibility. If she cannot answer it today, I will accept an answer later.

The Minister understands life, constituents and how the world works. Therefore, I ask her to scrutinise the Competition Authority and to think of the soup that was being churned, barrelled and packeted in Thurles. The authority closed the company and 80 jobs went down the river. This is a fact of life but it is not good enough.

That is straight talking from the Deputy from Mitchelstown.

It is welcome that the focus is being placed on improving science and technology because this is the right route for the country to take. County enterprise boards are doing tremendous work and I am very happy with them but it beggars belief that in my county the county council depends on the county enterprise board to do all of the work in the area of job creation. County managers or directors of services should be fully involved in trying to attract jobs, but they are not doing so. They are depending on the enterprise boards, the IDA, FÁS and so on to do it. Large conglomerates such as Hewlett Packard and Intel will not be located here in the future. Our future in industry lies in small indigenous companies. If they are located in rural Ireland, so be it. I will give an example.

Today I was trying through my own county council to ensure a nursing home would be given approval and that all the work would be done, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed. My understanding before this meeting started was that it would be refused because of the policy of the county council. The nursing home would have created 37 jobs in a disadvantaged rural community. I thought it was a good project. We should consider supporting small indigenous industries. Disadvantage in rural Ireland and its denuding due to planning laws were mentioned. It is about time we as politicians stood up for rural Ireland and said we want development and to strengthen communities. The Department has a role to play and I hope it will play it. FÁS has played a major role in community development. I would like to see Departments putting more money directly into community development associations in order that they can create jobs. I can prove it has worked in County Kildare and I am sure it will work in other areas.

I was glad to hear the announcement this morning that agency workers would have better entitlements under European regulations. With regard to health and safety, the Minister was correct in stating one life lost was one too many. It is important that we strengthen the powers of the Health and Safety Authority to ensure proper health and safety procedures are followed in all industries, particularly on building sites.

If there are any surplus moneys left at the end of the year, I ask that they be sent to community groups.

The Minister can send the money to County Kildare if she wishes. However, I would like to see communities targeted from the point of view of job creation.

As the Minister can see, I allowed discussion of all the headings rather than taking them individually. We have covered them in a cross-over fashion.

I will try and deal with them as best I can.

The Minister and her colleagues can deal with them.

As members know, the Leonardo programme is an EU programme mainly administered through the Department of Education and Science and my Department. According to a note on the subject, periodic calls for proposals are made, inviting organisations to submit vocational education training projects to national agencies. These involve partnerships with other eligible countries and can be advanced under the headings of mobility which involves trainees moving around or multinational development partnerships. I will pass the note to the Chairman, as it may be of benefit, although it is probably the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science.

As the committee is making a proposal, we need to have it as backup.

I will give it to the clerk. It might be of benefit to the committee, as it will have nothing to do for the next couple of weeks.

FÁS was mentioned by many speakers. I totally agree on the issue of apprentices. When skills are not available, there is a serious problem and it takes two or three years for them to become available again. This is a problem we have had in the health sector and many other areas. Without doubt, it is important to have a qualification that is certifiable and will enable one to move around the European Union and beyond. That is why FÁS has considered these issues specifically and is working through a number of recommendations. It is our intention to meet with its representatives to consider the matter. Deputies are right in stating employers were breaking down the doors looking for fellows who could do nearly nothing and now, when they are halfway through programmes, they want to lay them off. That is not fair. I can also appreciate that employers are finding it difficult with wages, salaries, training, etc., but I believe in the importance of apprenticeships. Should we look to new types of apprenticeship for the needs of the community? We should do so in addition to providing the basic skills. Ultimately, there must be a skills base. This is something that we will work through and it is hugely important. When it is apparent that there could be massive savings on the programme, perhaps money could be better spent to provide variations in the ways of getting it done. We cannot become a nanny state, as members will appreciate, but at the same time there are needs that must be addressed.

Community employment has been an issue for many years. We talk about a cap and others talk about a base. It is not worth arguing about at this time. There have been improvements and changes, particularly for the over-55s. Initially, if one examines the programme with its outcomes and outputs — about which Deputy Varadkar would be at my door — benchmarking and so on, many of these factors would not get through any hoop. There is a social aspect to the programme, however, and it is about balancing things out. New people have been trying to get on the programme and perhaps that will be more the case than before. There were other community employment schemes for which nobody could be got to sign up because the people were not available and those that were involved were happy and doing a good job. For some of those people the programme was the only reason they got out of bed in the morning.

We are tied between providing a social programme and an employment activation programme. This side of the Houses deals with an employment activation programme, an axis to employment, and yet, coming from where I do, I know exactly what is under discussion. It is a hugely expensive programme. I am still firmly of the view that we are in a period where we must look outside the box with regard to a number of these employment initiatives in order that we can provide a proper framework for everybody.

I cannot say that I am going to change the world. That cannot be done because there will be a budgetary requirement. There is a view that CE schemes must be looked at and there has been mention of activation of the elderly. The Minister of State, Deputy Máire Hoctor, has been working closely with my Department on that matter.

Another issue of great interest is that of disabilities and the involvement of people in the disability sector. Last Friday in Donegal I presented the apprentice awards for those who excel in each course. The first man who came up was a paraplegic who got an apprenticeship award for computer skills. That tells a story and shows what can be done. The young man was so delighted and, to be honest, I was taken aback. We see those as excellence awards, which they are, and to see that this man could achieve an excellence award was a credit to all there, including the tutors and mentors and all those who said that participation was all-important. Not everybody will make it but there are social needs that must be taken into consideration.

The other issues were FÁS and the Skillnets programme. The latter is very important because it is an industry led programme and has tangible results. Concerning the national training fund, €409 million was made available this year, an increase of 4% on last year. That additional funding will be directed through Skillnets and FÁS and we will see the results.

I have listened attentively to discussion about a number of issues that will probably remain contentious for a considerable period of time. Perhaps we will have to lance a few of them.

We need ointment immediately.

We need ointment. The doctor will get a cold poultice for us. I have listened to what was said about the Competition Authority and the relevant legislation. As the committee members will be aware, there is a review mechanism in place and I am sure they will put forward their views and perspectives. We must balance those with frameworks that reflect European ideals. I may have spoken about this myself because I had experience of negotiating with the dental association on a one-to-one basis. We resolved the issue despite some of the difficulties that exist now. At the same time we must be careful. We do not want professionals to be in a position whereby they can dictate to the State or to the consumer by working together to prevent competition. The solution is to find a balance that takes account of these issues, all of which can be put on the table to ascertain what can be done because new legislation will arise from the work that is taking place.

Work is in progress on the Companies Consolidation Act. From a tentative consideration of the legislation with my ministerial colleagues, I gather we need to examine the provision of a special facility to work through it because we are on a learning curve in this respect. The chairman may be an expert on this area, but we will have to swot to catch up with him. This is important legislation that needs proper consideration.

The stock exchange, with which I am not very familiar, comes under the remit of the Financial Regulator and the Department of Finance and it is self-regulating. I have listened to what committee members said about competition and how it can undermine particular companies. That is the reason the focus in this Department is on competitiveness and how people can remain competitive in a difficult global market and at the same time strike the proper balance. The spectrum of balance is not perhaps reflected here today. Those in the IFSC want research and development and inward investment to take place in the banking and insurance industries. I am talking of the big picture, which perhaps we as politicians do not appreciate unless we visit the IFSC and learn how we can win huge contracts in big business because, for example, the IDA is investing €100 million in a project in Citigroup, which will benefit many of our highly educated people by allowing them to be front-runners in that business. There is also forward direct investment, as is normal in terms of investment through, for example, the IDA. I listened to what a number of colleagues said about displacement, as a result of which people have found it difficult to find new opportunities. That relates to a different sector. Science and innovation development, which is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Devins, will be paramount to ensuring the provision of such opportunities.

As a former Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I recognise the role for manufacturing in this country, but manufacturing covers a wide spectrum. Our policy is to provide the opportunities to allow that to happen. I agree that those involved in small and medium-sized enterprises often take the first hit when there is a downturn in the economy. These are the people who drive the economy of rural towns and rural environments and they will be targeted by the county and city enterprise boards and by Enterprise Ireland. There is now a greater synergy with Shannon Development to allow that to happen. The Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, has a particular and personal interest in this area, and he will drive forward that agenda to ascertain what can be done, given the opportunities that exist. We do not fully appreciate the entrepreneurship of an individual who can grow and develop a business and, irrespective of whether he or she provides two or 40 jobs, it is hugely important to us.

A number of vacancies have arisen in Mr. Paul Appleby's office, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. A number of people are transferring to the organisation and, hopefully, it will be possible to fill the remaining posts internally. I am aware, however, there are issues in that regard. I am also aware of the work Mr. Appleby has done over a considerable period. We are endeavouring to bring numbers up to the staff complement necessary to alleviate some of the great pressures of the organisation.

With regard to the comment that the National Consumer Agency has been reactionary as opposed to forward thinking, the people in that agency are an easy gang to target every now and again. They are very much to the fore but they have done a considerable amount of work. The agency has been in existence for only a year. As the chairman said, we must give people time to achieve results. There are enforcement issues in this regard. The agency is engaged in advocacy work and in considerable research. I look forward to receiving the findings of its research on the consumers' issue and on prices at the end of the month. The agency has dealt with other issues and it provides a significant facility for consumers. One would be surprised at the issues people raise with the agency and it does its utmost to deal with them. It will be, however, up to us as politicians to drive agendas and not necessarily to be reactionary from that perspective.

There has been an increase in the capital programme, much of which relates to the IDA and EI capital investment programmes. It is good to see the increase but we need to see more tangible reflections of it.

The sum of €200 million is a substantial increase.

What will we get for it?

Much of this capital investment is for grant aid. There is also own resource income, fees and so forth. The target for the number of investment programmes to be signed off in 2008 is 122 and 12 for Shannon Development, compared to the output last year of 114 for the IDA and ten for Shannon Development. We are providing capital investment for the IDA programmes in order that we can attract new business.

Will it be reviewed in six months?

As the Deputy is a good entrepreneur, he might start something himself.

There are opportunities for older people in the workforce. The Minister of State, Deputy Hoctor, is very interested in moving on the issue.

With regard to innovative ways of providing skills, there are basic skills that everybody must have — the three Rs. What are the next basic skills needed? Twenty years ago nobody had heard of computer and keyboard skills. Now we have almost reached a threshold with those skills and must examine new ones. If committee members have any ideas, I will be more than happy to listen to them.

There are issues with unskilled workers. Activation is a difficulty for many of them. There is still a role for the unskilled worker. However, there is also an issue that I find difficult. It is that, as a society, we have now decided that the level at which somebody moves into the workforce has been raised steadily but we have not brought everybody up with us. Some do not have the capacity or capability to do it, nor should they in some cases. That is why I still believe that a young fellow of 16 years of age should be able to become an apprentice. If he has the hands, let him at it.

Another area for which we cannot find Irish people is what used to be known as CERT. As a former chairman of the Tourism College, I recall that in the 1980s it was impossible to get enough training places. Now there are not enough people to participate in the programmes. There is nothing wrong with those skills. In fact, they are one that one can bring anywhere; they are completely transferable. It is a worry that Irish people do not see the service industry as one in which they should participate. We should turn that perception round because the service and tourism industries are the sectors that offer huge opportunities and have growth potential. This is something that will require our attention. I distinctly remember when in north Dublin we actually brought people out from Amiens Street, because the trainees could not afford the bus fare into Amiens Street. I recall that a number of the hotels took people in. There is nothing to say they cannot be entrepreneurs, because they can. We need to consider where the unskilled workers fit in. This is hugely important because I do not want to have a situation where vacancies are filled by people who are over qualified for the job. That is a problem we encountered a number of years ago and do not need to do so again. We have to provide places for everybody.

With regard to agency workers, the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, and officials in the Department have been superb. They have put the legislation together and it will provide a balanced outcome. It deals with an issue that is important to both trade unions and employers. It provides clarity and will now be a matter for discussion as to how we implement it. I hope we can implement it as quickly as possible if there is support and enthusiasm for it.

The Chairman referred to work-life balance.

I was taken aback by it.

It is supposed to look at family-friendly policies.

There is a copy for us.

I am afraid that, unfortunately, we have as much hope of participating in those programmes, including flexitime, as the man in the moon. If we have flexitime somebody else will take the job off us.

As regards women's involvement in the workforce, we have had issues about women, particularly at management level, within the Civil Service and in industry, and how we allow people to move up. As a consequence, we introduced family-friendly ideas and ideals, which do not come without difficulties. We will have to examine all these issues within the context of the OECD report but, from what I can ascertain, the outcomes seem to be very good. I am not taking a professional view of this but they do allow people to deal with issues that are particularly difficult for them. They have provided flexibility together with facilities. We are looking at practical ways in which this can be done. There is a national framework to allow it to happen and it is something that both employers and unions are anxious to see.

I compliment the Minister. She is the first politician I have heard referring to the need to assist unskilled people through upskilling.

Well done to her. She has her feet on the ground. There are plenty of such people in Donegal and Cork as well.

The Minister said that the Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, was dealing with the business regulation framework, which is the strangulation of businesses by bureaucracy. We have a shop at home and everyone calls it. We even have correspondence from the Central Statistics Office. The shop is providing three jobs but why would one provide these jobs without a profit? All this bureaucracy is being imposed from on high. We are trying to keep a rural shop open but this is only one case; the situation is replicated in every village, as the Minister knows. Bureaucratic material comes in every few weeks.

It is the prices the Chairman is charging.

For all the great businesses that exist, at 10 p.m. little rural shops are there for ordinary people in villages and surrounding areas. They will not visit the big hypermarkets ten miles away. Businesses are being strangled by bureaucracy.

Mr. Mark Phelan told the committee some home truths recently, which resonate when one looks in from the outside. A thousand pieces of primary and secondary legislation will impact on a business, whether they concern company registration, taxes or other issues. Small businesses are also unpaid VAT collectors. They have to pay an accountant to send VAT returns every two months. That should not be underestimated.

Leaving that aside, however, I expect that the Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, who is a businessman of some repute, will examine this situation and streamline it. Health and safety legislation also impacts on the smallest business. Is there a single form that can answer all the questions? In that way, one would not be receiving so many forms from the CSO, CRO, Revenue and elsewhere. Multiple forms become an impediment and people become disillusioned and say "Let's close shop". Why would one continue if profits are zero?

The Minister of State visited all the European capitals as part of the WTO process. He understands it.

I know this is a small problem for a man of the Minister of State's abilities but I am sure he is tackling it head-on in his usual way.

I have to say, Chairman, that I was that soldier. My background is in retailing and I agree with everything the Chairman said. Regardless of what meeting or conference one attends in the context of the SME sector, one will come across everything the Chairman referred to. I do not like saying it but a high level group is looking at this, which I discovered when I went into the Department. I am determined, as is the Minister and all of us who work in the Department, to get an outcome from that review and to take the appropriate tangible action which will ensure the small and medium enterprise sector and, in particular, those small shops, are relieved of some of that unnecessary burden. One form should be applicable to all Departments. It should be enough for a company or a small business to fill out a form once a year. In my own business, I get those forms which frustrate and anger people and which do not relate to the business at all. One fills out the form simply to comply. Therefore, one is sending in the wrong information to be analysed. There is a need to put a stop to that cycle.

I refer to company law reform and to the consolidation legislation. It will be the largest Bill to come before the House and will have 1,300 sections. It is reaching a point where it can be debated. I have met the group. Much of the argument can be resolved because it involves the use of new language in respect of old provisions and many new provisions as well.

In terms of the reduction of red tape and that Bill, we could work very closely with the committee to ensure a pathway which will create greater efficiency in the delivery of change and also the new legislation. I would welcome the opportunity to work with the committee at an early date.

I thank the Minister of State.

Will we hear from the Minister of State with responsibility for science, technology and innovation?

We will. The first ten pages are all about innovation. The Minister of State, Deputy Devins, must be very happy with all the money available in that area. I say to the Minister and to the Ministers of State that it is time SMEs were represented in the partnership process. This is the type of thing which could be brought to the partnership process.

SMEs are represented.

Mark Fielding and others are not.

The Small Firms Association is a section of IBEC.

Pat Crotty is there. The Small Firms Association has been recognised recently.

The IFA is there.

An organisation which represents hundreds of small businesses throughout the country——

(Interruptions).

We wrote a letter to the former Taoiseach which he probably received in his last days in office.

(Interruptions).

We mentioned seven days but four or five days later he announced his resignation. It is an issue about which we feel strongly. Mark Fielding has appeared before the committee on at least two occasions and he made fairly significant arguments. One would agree and disagree with some of them and have a neutral view on others. ISME brings something new and innovative to the process and it is important it is represented. I am not a member of ISME but I have listened to what it has had to say. It is important to involve it because it has something positive to say about the work the Minister is doing. I say God speed to the Minister in solving this because if she does so, many businesses will be very thankful.

It was the view of the former Taoiseach and the Minister's predecessor that small business was adequately represented by the Small Firms Association which is a section of IBEC. Others would not necessarily agree with that, so it is something the Minister might consider.

In terms of including people over whom the Minister would have influence in the social partnership process, I would like to see the National Consumer Agency involved in the process because increasingly it has become an agreement among public sector unions, big business and Government which is supposed to represent taxpayers and consumers but which largely does not. I would like to see consumers represented at that table. Perhaps the National Consumer Agency could be given the authority to represent consumer interests in social partnership.

We are all politicians and it is politicians who must pull all this together at the end of the day. I would not detract from that either because politicians must represent all of the views and perspectives.

I accept that too. It has been an extensive discussion. Many members have other matters with which to deal.

Can we hear a one-page report from the Minister of State, Deputy Devins?

Deputy Devins has the handiest job. It is the most exciting one.

It is lovely to be here and I am delighted there were no questions directed at science, technology and innovation. It is an exciting time and I look forward to working with the committee in delivering the outputs outlined in the Estimates.

It is important that science and technology be considered in its entirety, starting at primary school and secondary school and then at the third level. It is not all about the third or fourth level, although that is frightfully important also. Innovation applies right across the board. Any worker has the capability to deliver on innovation. I am happy to work with the Minister and the committee in delivering these outputs.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Devins. This concludes the select committee's consideration of the 2008 annual output statement and Revised Estimate for Vote 34 — Enterprise, Trade and Employment for the year ending 31 December 2008. I thank the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, the Minister of State, Deputy Devins, the Minister of State, Deputy John McGuinness, and their officials for attending today's meeting of the select committee.

I thank the Chairman, the members of the committee and the clerk to the committee for facilitating the Estimates process. I was at a committee meeting not that long ago taking the Estimates for another Department. It is always about a learning curve. I thank my colleagues who are with me. I also thank my Department officials who thought they had got a former Minister over the line and now have to teach a new one all the old tricks.

I look forward to working with the committee. There are many good ideas and I look forward to hearing about them. Naturally, we all must work within the budgetary framework. That said, we need to look at innovative ways to be competitive and that will be our focus.

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