Select Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2022

Vote 32 - Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Supplementary)

Chairman

I have not received any apologies. I thank members for their participation in this meeting. I remind them that they are required to attend either in the committee room or remotely from within the Leinster House complex. Should a division occur, any member participating remotely will be required to make his or her way to the committee room within the normal division time to vote before returning to his or her original location. Members and all in attendance are asked to exercise personal responsibility in protecting themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy English, and his officials. Before we begin our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 32, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses regarding references members may make to another person when giving evidence. Members are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at this meeting. However, members are expected not to abuse this privilege and it my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if members' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative members comply with any such direction I give.

I invite the Minister of State to make his opening comments on the Supplementary Estimates. As normal, documentation for the meeting, including the Minister of State's opening statement, has been circulated on MS Teams.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Damien English)

I thank the Chair and members for their time. I am pleased, on behalf of my Department and the officials present, to have the opportunity to present the Department's Supplementary Estimate to the members of the select committee. I have been asked by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise and Trade and Employment to express his apologies for not being able to attend. He is otherwise engaged with Government business. The secretariat has been provided with a briefing by my Department's officials on the various elements of the Supplementary Estimate and I hope this has been of assistance to today's discussions. I will provide a little detail on the main elements.

The Supplementary Estimate has two distinct elements. The substantive element seeks €654.5 million in additional funding for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment's Vote. The technical element seeks to redistribute €61.35 million in capital savings to fund priorities this year. On additional funding, €650 million is being sought to meet the cost of payments under the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, in 2022. In addition, €4.5 million is requested for a number of programmes that need additional funding to meet the cost of pay increases under the recently extended Building Momentum agreement due this year, as well as funding for priority areas where there has been increased demand for services.

Members will be aware of the announcement in the budget to introduce a temporary business energy support scheme to assist businesses with energy costs. The scheme will provide cash payments to support businesses impacted by the unprecedented increase in energy costs resulting from the military aggression by Russia in Ukraine. The funding for the scheme will be provided through the Vote of the Department but the scheme will be administered by the Revenue Commissioners, subject to the committee's agreement. The TBESS will be available to all businesses carrying on a trade or profession whose profits are chargeable to tax and this will include organisations such as sporting bodies and charities. It is estimated in the region of 400,000 businesses will be eligible for support under the scheme. The scheme applies in respect of electricity and natural gas costs for the period from 1 September 2022 to 28 February 2023. The Finance Bill, which provides the legislative basis underpinning the scheme, will allow the Minister for Finance to extend this period up until the end of April 2023.

The scheme will operate by reference to bills for the metered supply of electricity and natural gas through electricity accounts or gas connections. Where eligibility is concerned, in order to make a claim under the TBESS in respect of an electricity bill or a natural gas bill, a business must be able to demonstrate the average unit price for electricity or natural gas on the relevant bill has increased by 50% or more compared with the average unit price of electricity or natural gas in a reference period. In broad terms, this is the average unit price in the month 12 months prior to the claim period to which the relevant Bill relates. This is the best way to achieve the impact for the most businesses.

Qualifying businesses are entitled to claim a temporary business energy payment, TBEP, amounting to 40% of its eligible cost. The payment is subject to a cap for each monthly claim period. Claims for TBEP payments must be made within four months of the end of the claim period to which a particular electricity or natural gas bill relates. The eligible cost amount for an electricity or natural gas bill is calculated as the increase between the bill amount on that electricity or natural gas bill as compared with a bill amount in the applicable reference period. As advised, TBESS payments will be subject to a monthly cap, which in most instances will be limited to €10,000 per trade or profession. However, where a business carries on its trade or profession from more than one location, as identified by the business having multiple electricity accounts in different locations, the cap may be increased by €10,000 per electricity account, subject to an overall cap of €30,000 per trade.

Revenue has developed a dedicated web page and guidance on the TBESS. The guidance includes specific details of examples and sample bills to assist businesses in making claims under the scheme. Revenue will ensure the guidance is kept up to date and reflects any changes to the scheme arising from its passage through the Oireachtas. The key point of advice on the scheme from Revenue is businesses need to have tax clearance to register and claim, will be required to retain tax clearance for the duration of the scheme, and will need to have details of their reference bills for the period from 1 September 2021 to 28 February 2022 and the details for the claim periods in which they wish to make the claim. The Revenue Online System, ROS, is now available for registration for the TBESS. Businesses will be able to submit their claims for assistance under the scheme to Revenue over the next few days. We hope to be in a position to start payments once the legislation is passed by the Houses and enacted.

As members will be aware, the scheme as announced at budget time envisaged an overall package of €1.2 billion. The €650 million being sought through the Supplementary Estimate is required to meet the cost of payments under the scheme between now and the end of the year. Funding to support the cost of meeting payments in 2023 will be provided for in the forthcoming Revised Estimates, which are due to be published shortly and will be discussed and debated in the committee in the new year.

Aside from funding for the TBESS, the Supplementary Estimate is also seeking an additional €4.5 million in current funding to meet the cost of pay increases under the recently extended Building Momentum pay agreement due this year, as well as funding for priority areas where there has been increased demand for services, such as the Department’s employment permit service. The latter has been discussed in the committee on several occasions and much good work has been done to try to reduce the numbers there but that has come with a cost in the form of additional staff.

The number of employment permit applications increased to almost 28,000 in 2021 and is on track to be approximately 40,000 this year.

The Department continues to progress a significant number of policy and legislative initiatives in areas such as employment rights, insurance reform, competition and consumer law. The additional funding sought is required to meet the cost of those measures.

The IDA Ireland requires €1.5 million to enable it to meet the costs of the extended Building Momentum pay increases due this year. The remaining €1 million of the additional current funding sought through the Supplementary Estimate will be provided to Enterprise Ireland to allow it to meet an excess on its pension allocation. In that regard, Enterprise Ireland experienced an unexpected number of retirements in 2022 which required additional funding to meet retirement lump sum payments.

Insofar as the technical element of the Supplementary Estimate is concerned, the Department is seeking to redistribute €61.35 million in capital savings to fund particular priorities this year. Some €55 million in capital savings will be provided to support the new growth and sustainability loan scheme, which will be delivered jointly by my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in partnership with the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and the European Investment Bank Group. We briefly touched on that in the debate on the credit guarantee legislation. The predecessor to the growth and sustainability loan scheme, the future growth loan scheme, which was also a joint initiative of my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, was very successful and demonstrated a demand for longer term lending. The growth and sustainability loan scheme, GSLS, will ensure that this type of lending continues to be available to small businesses for strategic investment purposes. In that regard, the GSLS will make up to €500 million in longer term lending available to SMEs, including farmers and fishers and small midcaps. Up to 70% of lending will be for lending for strategic investments with a view to increasing productivity and competitiveness and thus underpinning future business sustainability and growth. The GSLS will also target a minimum of 30% of the lending volume towards environmental sustainability purposes with the aim of encouraging our SMEs to take positive actions in support of the climate change agenda and to change and adapt in order to maintain competitiveness within the context of an increasing emphasis on the environmental sustainability credentials of goods and services among consumers and investors.

The SBCI will deliver the loan scheme on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The SBCI will provide an uncapped 80% guarantee to participating lenders in the scheme, and the European Investment Bank Group will provide the SBCI with a counter-guarantee such that the risk share of the scheme will be 20% for lenders, 16% for the SBCI and 64% for the European Investment Bank Group. Accordingly, if defaults are greater than modelled for the scheme, there is no additional cost to the taxpayer, and the European Investment Bank Group will be required to pay a significant portion of the defaults from its own resources.

Lenders will be encouraged to participate in the scheme through the 80% guarantee provided by the SBCI on loans issued through the scheme. This is a matter of de-risking, and we have seen the scheme work extremely well. There is quite a large demand for it. When we engage with stakeholders they ask for another round of the scheme. I hope that today, with the committee's agreement, we will be able to put that in place.

A further €5.8 million in capital savings will be redistributed to support the European Space Agency, ESA, programme this year. That will increase the overall funding for the ESA to €27.17 million in 2022. Ireland's membership of the ESA, through the mechanism of geographical return, enables Irish industry to undertake technology development contracts for the agency commensurate with the value of Ireland's investment. We find it worthwhile.

As for the value of contracts placed by the ESA with Irish businesses, contracts to the value of €19 million were placed in 2021, of which €15.8 million was placed with 36 Irish-based companies and €3.2 million in contracts with Irish universities and research institutes. We will see that with the launch of EIRSAT-1 in the new year. We are trying to make sure that the drawdown of funds from the ESA benefits a combination of our education system and our research system along with our SMEs. We are seeing great progress in this area. Close to 97 companies have availed of contracts from the ESA, and we want to continue with that progress under our enterprise plan for space. Funding will also be provided to the ESA's advanced research in telecommunications systems, which enables industry to explore, through research and development activities, innovative concepts to produce leading-edge satcom products and services. The earth observation programme, which supports industrial activity using earth observation technologies, will also benefit from the increased allocation being provided to the ESA. The additional funding of €5.8 million will allow new contracts to be signed with Irish-based companies in the future and will help to meet targets for contracts to Irish-based companies as set out in the national space strategy for enterprise.

The remaining €550,000 in savings is being provided to the Department's humanitarian relief programme. The relief programme is an emergency humanitarian contribution to help businesses affected by emergency events which have not been able to secure insurance against such events. The scheme helps towards the costs of returning business premises and community, voluntary and sporting bodies to their pre-emergency event condition, including the replacement of flooring, fixtures and fittings and damaged stock. Normally, the amount is up to €5,000, but some companies can make a case to go as far as €20,000. The scheme this year is probably mainly for events in Donegal, Wexford, Cork and the south east.

The moneys required to fund the Supplementary Estimate package of €61.35 million come from capital savings achieved on certain Enterprise Ireland programmes and on the temporary partial credit guarantee scheme programme. In respect of Enterprise Ireland, the savings arise in the main from the fact that in the case of a number of its supports and schemes there is sometimes a time lag between the approval of applications and the projects underlying such applications being completed and submitted for payments. It can also be the case that clients themselves, for their own reasons relating to matters such as cashflow etc., may delay submitting their claims for payment. These delays have resulted in payments under some Enterprise Ireland schemes not being drawn down as had been expected.

As regards the temporary partial credit guarantee scheme, the experience has been that claims for defaulting loans against the guarantee are at a significantly lower level than had been expected or allowed for. It was not that we assumed that, but we had to allow for it. That will give rise to savings on the allocation.

The Supplementary Estimate before the committee is very much in the way of a concrete expression of the Government's solidarity with businesses and their workers' rights across the country. Generally, I think it reflects the views of the committee and the Dáil that we want to support businesses through a very difficult time and, by doing so, support jobs that are vital in every part of the country. I thank the members for their co-operation and I thank the Chair and his team.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. I now invite members to discuss the Supplementary Estimate with him. I remind members participating remotely, of whom there is just one, to raise their hand if they wish to speak. The first person to indicate was Deputy O'Reilly. We have a rota in place, as members will know.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. I have just a few questions. The first relates to the state aid rules. We know that the scheme is allowed to operate because the rules have been relaxed, but I am curious to know whether we are up to the maximum we can go in respect of that relaxation? Is there scope there? Can we go beyond the 40%? Are we constrained? Is it the case that we have hit the ceiling there or can more be done? If more can be done, the Minister of State might outline where that scope exists.

Deputy Damien English

My understanding is that, while the European Commission has approved the scheme in recent weeks, the 40% had broken the ceiling. The framework has changed and will probably change again during 2023 in terms of its being extended. It might allow us to return to the scheme later if need be. We understand that the scheme, as designed, is the best way to reach as many businesses as we possibly can and have that impact. Therefore, while the 40% was under the EU framework, it had also to do with our own budget and maximising the use of that. We have agreed with stakeholders and with the committee to keep an eye on what is happening with energy costs. This scheme was to be in place until the end of February. The Finance Bill that passed through the Houses last week allows it to be extended until April. We will monitor the situation over the months ahead, and if we have to come back to particular sectors or certain schemes to adjust that, we will do so. It should be borne in mind, however, that if we wanted to change the percentage, we would have to go back to the EU for approval. That might not be forthcoming, but that is the procedure. Originally, we had pushed it up as far as we could, to the 40%. That has got approval, which is positive. We track what is happening in every other European country under the framework, and if we see schemes that we think would be of benefit here and that we could afford to do, of course we try to look at them and copy them.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Are other countries sticking to the same framework and not pushing it any further-----

Deputy Damien English

They are but, again, that is something we track across the various Departments to see if there are schemes from which we could benefit or if somebody else has pushed it beyond. If we think we can do that, of course we do, but, generally-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I am sorry to cut across the Minister of State. Are other countries pushing it beyond?

Deputy Damien English

From what I can see, most companies are within the rules. I do not have the list of them all in front of me. When we last had this conversation a few weeks ago, however, most schemes had. Again, the question is how to reach the majority of businesses more quickly. We think the TBESS is a very beneficial scheme that will reach potentially hundreds of thousands of businesses in a quick way with a cash support. There are other supports there, and we will touch on the loan guarantee again later. That is another important support. As for this scheme, we are using the maximum. We will monitor the schemes and keep an eye on them to see if we can improve them, but it should be borne in mind that most of the supports that are sanctioned under the framework are out of our own budget, taxpayers' money. There will be redistribution of funds with the windfall tax and so on into the new year, but we do not have an exact amount for that yet. As it stands, therefore, we have to try to balance our own budget while using the framework to have these schemes in place.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The Minister of State will know that the vast majority of companies that avail of the scheme desperately need it, but there will be some which experience the conditions allowed for under the scheme but which do not necessarily need it.

Companies that previously availed of the scheme and then paid out dividends to their shareholders would have been seen making big profits. The Minister of State can understand how that would annoy people, particularly those in businesses that are really struggling, who are playing by the rules and are genuinely in need. I know the scheme is open to everybody, but is there a mechanism in place to ensure such things do not happen? The Minister of State must have been contacted, because I was, by people who were deeply frustrated by reports of huge profits being made by companies that were supported during the pandemic. Some companies came through the pandemic while others did not, and some came through barely hanging on by their fingertips.

Deputy Damien English

No matter what the scheme, if you are trying to potentially reach in excess of 300,000, it is going to be impossible to have a perfectly seamless design. The rules are there to try to reach and support as many companies as possible as quickly as we can. Will some companies that do not need support qualify for it? Possibly, but the capacity is not in the system to go through every company in such a high level of detail. Naturally, if companies abuse the rules of a self-assessed scheme, Revenue will deal with them when it carries out spot checks. Likewise, where companies availed of Covid supports and it was shown in the long run that they were not assessed properly, Revenue has gone back in and there is a claw-back procedure in place. As to whether a company is in need, the cap will deal with that to some extent by preventing companies from drawing down excessively from the fund. It is designed to reach the majority of SMEs that need this assistance and are going through a very difficult time.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I take on board the Minister of State's point, and I do not think we are in major disagreement, but it would be very frustrating for companies that could do with a little more to see money going to data centres that are hugely profitable and do not provide many jobs. That will annoy people who are not making large profits but are providing jobs and doing all they can to keep body and soul together and protect jobs.

As for companies that are large energy consumers, their bills will obviously show they are paying more. However, these companies are not providing a large number of jobs. I understand their role in supporting other jobs but they are not job providers, nor are they trying to save jobs. There will be frustration and a certain amount of anger among members of the community who feel they are playing by the rules and do not benefit to the maximum amount. I accept the Minister of State's point in that regard and understand the need to reach as many people as possible.

Last week, my colleague, an Teachta Kerrane, raised the issue of the exclusion from the scheme of businesses that use oil for energy with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, who responded:

We will in the time ahead look at the scheme and how it is operating and see if it is having the desired effect in supporting businesses and our economy. The scheme does not currently and cannot include oil, but we will look at the general level of support within our economy for businesses such as the one the Deputy has raised.

You would never be home for that answer. It was a little bit of this and a little bit of that, while not being very clear. Is there scope to revive this option? The cost of oil has gone up and in some instances, it costs more than electricity. This is putting businesses under huge pressure. I appreciate that the scheme includes a requirement to meter energy use and that is how the refunds operate. However, businesses that rely solely on oil are struggling too. As vague as the Minister's response was, it did indicate that there was scope to examine the businesses that do not come under the terms of this scheme. Does the Minister of State know how that monitoring is being done? Will he reach out specifically to companies that were excluded from the scheme to see if something can be done? Should they contact the Department directly or how will that work?

Deputy Damien English

We engage regularly with all representative bodies, as the Deputy will know, and try to work with them on the design of these schemes. The Minister has said several times, including on budget day, that the scheme would initially cover gas and electricity and companies not supported under the scheme would then be considered. I do not have a figure for the number coming forward or what mechanism will we employ, but there is a commitment to keep this and other schemes under review. Contingency funds have been set aside under next year's budget to bring forward supports, if necessary. We will keep track of that. The process for dealing with this matter extends across three Departments. Data on energy usage in various businesses, which we needed to put the scheme in place, came from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We will keep an eye on that process. If the Deputy is being contacted by businesses, I will be happy to engage with them to strengthen the case for increasing the reach of these supports if need be.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State and I accept that the scheme is being kept under review. People want to know at what point they will find out if there is anything available. Can they apply for the contingency fund in the new year or should they start the application process now? How will that work?

Deputy Damien English

At many of our meetings with stakeholders, this issue has not been at the top of the agenda. If the Deputy has a list of companies in this situation - I have not met a large number of them - I will be happy to work with them and make a case. The Department of Finance, through the Minister, has said the initial design of the scheme was to get it approved, operational and out the door quickly so that people would receive funds before Christmas or the new year. There is scope there, if need be. With all the schemes we work with in the Department, we have to gather evidence and make case, and we are open to doing so.

On contingency funds, no one knows exactly where we will end up next year. For this reason, money has been into the budget should we need to extend schemes or design new schemes. There is an openness for us to make a case. That is what we do in our Department. We work with various sectors and try to move forward.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

On capital savings, there is some detail in the submission as to how the €61.35 million in capital savings was achieved. That is now about to be redistributed. I refer to where the money is coming from, some of which includes the drawdown that was deferred, as the Minister of State mentioned, and that will need to come back. How much of the capital savings, when broken down, is money due that has been deferred and will be claimed at some point in the future?

I am not trying to bounce the Minister of State into giving an answer on an issue that was not referenced. Given that the report on a four-day week was published this morning and the Minister of State has said some sort of savings have been made, is there scope in the Department's budget to further fund this scheme? I do not think much more investigation will be needed because all the evidence seems to suggest that a four-day week is a positive project, not just for workers but also employers. I know there is no hostility in the Department to the scheme but it should move the scheme forward, publicise it and get more companies involved. Today's report indicated that all 12 companies involved will retain the four-day week beyond the pilot programme, albeit a small number may do so for a short period. Is there scope for this?

Deputy Damien English

I have not read the report yet, so I am not going to have a conversation on it just yet. It is not an area we will spend money on between now and Christmas, which is the topic of this meeting. It is an issue on which I will engage with the Deputy again. We take every opportunity to bring in flexibility and encourage more people into the workforce. We are open to discussing and debating how to protect jobs but I will not get into this issue without first having read the report.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is okay.

Deputy Damien English

On the breakdown of the €61.35 million in capital savings, €15 million relates to the temporary partial credit guarantee scheme. The success of that scheme meant companies were able to repay their debts and did not have to draw down State funding, which was positive. It showed that credit guarantee schemes are useful, can work and are not as costly as may have been thought when they were established.

Enterprise Ireland's expected saving is less than €52 million but this is not confirmed. As the Deputy will know, Enterprise Ireland operates several schemes on behalf of our Department, and there is often a lag between approval and the drawing down of funds. This includes the green transition fund, the digital transition fund, the online retail scheme and the flood relief scheme. The projects approved under the regional enterprise development fund have not all drawn down funding yet. There are several schemes for which I can get the Deputy the exact details if she wants.

There is an underspend of about €18 million in the climate and digital transition fund, which was partly due to the timing of the launch of the scheme in the third quarter. Some of these schemes were launched towards the end of the year. It takes a lot to get them up and running. While they may have been agreed earlier in the year, it can take time to get them open and have funds drawn down. Approval has been given for €7.9 million of the €10 million allocation for the digital transition fund. Funding for the online retail scheme, which is a smaller scheme, has not been drawn down in full. We will know the figures by the end of the year.

In general, however, it is not. Every year we have a similar conversation about Enterprise Ireland, EI. It is the nature of the business and that will happen quite a lot. Naturally, we expect and hope that a number of the schemes will come into the system next year and be drawn down. While the budget for next year has been increased as well, this is not uncommon because that is the way it works in Enterprise Ireland. It makes schemes available. Sometimes they are competitive and sometimes they are not, but there is a process in application and drawing down the funding. No matter what way we do this, we possibly cannot address or fix how the money is drawn down, but it can be difficult if a scheme is only opened in August or September and the money has to be spent by Christmas. We want to be able to work with the organisations and the clients to ensure they know there is funding in place for next year if they are in a position to draw down and spend money.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank the Minister of State for coming in. I have a few questions. The first is on the temporary wage subsidy scheme. We had representatives of various sectors before the committee and many of them feared the impact of energy costs, in particular on some more vulnerable sectors. Essentially, what is worth considering is whether particular sectors will be confronted with difficulties above and beyond others. In my constituency, I think of the fishing sector with so much cost involved in keeping their catches fresh given their relatively short shelf life. Is the Minister of State looking at particular sectors that may have difficulties? The type of suggestions being offered were going earlier than September or having a higher rate.

It seems to me from the evidence we heard that some people have been pretty smart at doing things like fitting doors on fridges and putting in solar panels. The current grant levels for some of those measures are quite low. There is an old saying about giving a person a fish or teaching them to fish. If we can do something that permanently reduces the energy costs, there may be significant advantages. In the case of attic insulation and cavity wall insulation, we are providing up to 80% of subsidies for certain lower-hanging fruit, to use that term, that could cut our energy use very quickly. Would the Department consider that?

I am interested to hear about the loan scheme performance. I note that the Minister of State outlined that the one run by EI performed better in terms of default than he expected. How did the future growth loan scheme perform? Why are the names changed all the time? It would be better for take-up if we kept the same name. Everyone would know this is the future growth loan or whatever it is. We keep coming up with new names in new legislation. I know we probably have to go through state aid, but we should keep the name the same.

Has the Department started to develop sectoral strategies for circularity? I know the big focus is on climate. This week the ESRI showed that our imported inputs for sectors under the Department's oversight, although they are not all under its remit, include 18 million tonnes of embodied carbon. For imported consumer goods and services we bring in 65 million tonnes of embodied carbon. Our total production is only 60 million tonnes. If we tot those up, we are taking in an awful lot more embodied carbon. The issue is that people are not paying much heed to how this works. Is the Minister of State considering schemes that would support segregation, material selection, renewables – specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound, SMART, and lean?

Deputy Damien English

The nature of the TBESS is to try to reach the majority of businesses that have been impacted. I think the majority would qualify for the scheme. The Deputy is correct to say that certain sectors are impacted in a greater way. That is why the combination of schemes, using TBESS and the loan guarantee as an option and the other supports that are there to reduce energy bills, will help. It is important that we track this sector by sector into the new year. There are specific sectors as well that have come to our attention - the Deputy mentioned a few of them – that might need greater intervention, but that needs to be monitored depending on where the cost of energy goes in the new year. Each Department is tracking that as well. There are sectors that are under pressure and we must find different ways of supporting them. TBESS is designed to have the most impact as quickly as possible to reach the high volume of businesses. Most businesses are under pressure with their costs.

Deputy Bruton is correct about the need to reduce energy. We are trying to work with companies in the various sectors to decarbonise their business and to be able to show their green credentials for two reasons, first, to reduce their own costs and, second, to fit in with our climate legislation and targets, which we are involved in setting for the industry at between 33% and 35% to achieve in the coming years. When they are exporting around the world, their own customers will demand this now. We have a journey to go. There are approximately 20 different schemes to support businesses. There is an issue with vetting companies because the drawdown is not where we would expect it to be. We constantly work with businesses to bring them through those schemes, and we look at whether we have to adjust them and make a better offering. One example from the recent budget, which we will discuss here again, is the additional €4 million given to the local enterprise offices to fund investment in infrastructure for businesses that have come through the green for micro initiative. They have done their audit and made up their plan and now they have access to funds to implement the plan as well. Likewise, we have the energy efficiency loan scheme, which is an attractive scheme worth up to €150,000 over ten years to invest in energy reduction infrastructure or decarbonisation. A number of schemes are available.

I am disappointed with the drawdown. That is something we might specifically look at as a committee some day and go through them all. We could bring in the relevant agencies that work with the Department as well. We do that too but there is not enough discussion around this. Industries and businesses have gone through four or five difficult years and they have just been trying to survive while trying to deal with Brexit, Covid and Ukraine. We must get them thinking of the long-term solutions, however. We can work with them and help them to invest in their own business through the various schemes. Even with the name change, the future growth loan scheme tries to encourage people to invest in infrastructure to reduce their use of carbon and energy. Several schemes are in place. It is a case of how appropriate they are and if businesses can navigate their way through them. Again, we are trying to do a lot of work in the Department to try to guide people through the schemes, point out where they are and what is relevant to them. The climate change toolkit brings people through that conversation as well and could point them in the right direction. We are launching a new mechanism – it is not on our website yet – to track the way through the schemes and try to find the one to suit each business. That will help. Deputy Bruton is correct. We will put more money into that as well.

The Deputy’s point on the name of schemes is a good one. It is hard for me too when they keep changing. It has to do with the legal situation when there are different funding streams and to allow for the various EU frameworks. There are various schemes. The credit guarantee scheme and the future growth loan scheme are linked to the EU frameworks, which changes the state aid rules, as outlined by Deputy O’Reilly earlier. The current one is a response to Ukraine. The previous framework was in response to Covid. They are set at a European level. We probably have to go the extra distance to make sure that our schemes are aligned under those frameworks. I agree with the Deputy that it is complicated. That is why I generally just refer to them as the future growth loan scheme or the loan schemes. There is an interest from businesses. Deputy Bruton asked me for the figures on the drawdown. It was fully subscribed. To date, there were 3,500 loans under the future growth loan scheme. To date, we are aware of only two loan defaults. Each time we change the name, there are feature changes as well; the schemes are not exactly the same. However, I do agree with Deputy Bruton that it would be easier if the names did not change. Businesses have said the same to us as well. The main point is that the schemes are available. The new growth loan scheme has a target of 30% investment in infrastructure to reduce energy usage and a company’s carbon footprint, which would be useful.

The other question the Deputy asked was whether we are looking at the various sectors and their journey. The White Paper on enterprise that is due out in December is trying to look into the future and to signal where we need to concentrate our efforts as a Department. It will confirm areas in which we have had great success as a country over the past 30 to 40 years, but it will point out what we need to do in future to strengthen the position of business, strengthen our competitiveness and the availability of skills and talent. Having read through the White Paper and had a lot of discussions on it, much of it is around decarbonisation, digitalisation, our green journey and energy production. It recognises that even before Ukraine, the cost and availability of energy has a major impact on business.

Naturally, that will play a major role. The White Paper will capture the various sectors we need to address. We need to target areas, which we do through the schemes, and work with sectors. Clustering programmes are coming through Enterprise Ireland, which is trying to share expertise with sectors.

Regarding retail, the Deputy asked about investing in putting doors on fridges and so on. There is a great deal of work being done in the retail sector and some of the larger multiples have been able to encourage that investment and assist with costs. Many other businesses have drawn down grants and supports through the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, Enterprise Ireland and their local enterprise offices, LEOs. However, they are still being hit with high energy bills, so we must ensure that the supports are worth their while and we work with them on continuous investment. Quick wins can be achieved in certain sectors, but this is a conversation that we need to have more often with our enterprise community. Everyone gains by doing this. We have targets under the Climate Action Plan on which we have to deliver. There is a great deal of work to do over the coming years.

Deputy David Stanton

Most of what I wanted to ask has already been covered. Deputy Bruton pointed out that, as we have heard in recent weeks, some of the sectors were having a tougher time than others, particularly retail. Someone selling clothes might not use as much energy as someone selling meat. Constituents have told me that their costs have increased significantly. Is the Department keeping an eye on this issue with the possible aim of adjusting some of the supports, if required? We do not want to see any more businesses going to the wall because of this.

Mention was made of the fishing sector. I understand that fishers get no relief for fuel even though there are fuel reliefs in other areas. Will the Minister of State comment on this? Some fishers have told me that fuel is a significant cost for them. They cannot put out to sea to do their work without support.

It is intriguing to see the ESA being mentioned. The Minister of State might comment on the work it is doing. Perhaps it is an agency that we could invite to appear before us at some stage so that we could learn a little about it. I noted this morning that technologies developed in Ireland were being used to fight off moon dust, which is interesting. It is good to see.

I am interested in the Minister of State's remarks about Enterprise Ireland schemes not being drawn down. Can I take it that, if businesses miss the boat this year, they can come back and draw down funding next year?

I presume that the €550,000 under the humanitarian relief scheme is funding that can be drawn down and used as the year goes on. Where will that fund end? Will the Minister of State give us a timescale for it?

Deputy Damien English

Was the Deputy referring to the TBESS with his final question?

Deputy David Stanton

No, the humanitarian relief scheme.

Deputy Damien English

Our work on that scheme is ad hoc. There is not a budget set aside for the future. Instead, as a need arises, we open a scheme in conjunction with the Red Cross and allocate funding to it. A request has been made that we strengthen the position across some Departments so that there is a regular and committed fund, but the funding is generally provided for from within own resources. What happened in Donegal was an exceptional case, but a scheme is usually opened in response to weather events like those in the Deputy's county of Cork, Wexford and Galway. A number of schemes were opened in August and November and funding under them will be available throughout the year. We will work with the Red Cross. The initial response of most businesses is to apply for €5,000. It is not common to apply for more than that, but it is possible. To clarify, the scheme is for businesses that do not have insurance. After a flooding event, it is difficult to get repeat insurance, and it is in this context that money is generally drawn down.

Regarding the differences between various parts of the retail sector, we sit on the retail forum and I chair it. I believe that all of the representative bodies are on it. We regularly discuss what is needed and what pressures are on various parts of the sector. It is correct to say that representative bodies raise certain areas that are under immense pressure, for example, butchers. We believe that the TBESS will bring relief to those businesses. We will continue to engage and track the situation in the months ahead. We can already see that some businesses have been hit hard, with a number around the country being forced to close their doors. Thankfully, that number is small so far, and we want to ensure that it remains small. That is why this support is in place.

It is important that we get this money out this year because businesses are under pressure from a cash point of view. Knowing that the scheme is coming is a help, but many in the business community will not know what has been put in place until it is open and they can draw the money down. They are fearful. If we can get this scheme out, it will help many of them.

Businesses have been impacted at different times. Some were still in contact with prices up until September, others were hit a year or eight months ago. Each company we visit has a different story and we are trying to respond in general as best we can. We will track the situation specifically.

Regarding the ESA and our investment in space technologies, I would be happy to have a session with the committee. This is an important sector and we have a specific plan for space-related enterprises in conjunction with Enterprise Ireland. The growth in this area has seen a nearly 40% increase in the number of companies winning contracts from the ESA. For us, there have been two successes. First, these companies have created 1,000 plus jobs. Second, the technologies they are working on are transferable to many other markets and can have an impact in terms of weather events, health and so on. This is generally where we are investing.

There is a great deal of potential in this for Ireland. Skills and talents are being developed. Launching our first satellite early in the new year, led by a team from UCD, is a major achievement. This work develops talents, skills and an interest in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM. We are finding that young people are showing an interest in STEM subjects because people are tracking the story of EIRSAT-1. Irish companies were also involved in the James Webb Space Telescope, JWST, which is sending us fabulous pictures from space on a nearly daily basis. Réaltra designed and manufactured the technology that captured JWST's video pictures. The number of young people who are now getting in contact with us shows a new interest in this area.

Our investment in space is through our SMEs and technologies. That is our role as a country. This large sector has potential and it is important that we be a part of it to avail of the opportunities it presents. I would be very happy to return to the committee to discuss this topic.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. We will definitely follow up on that suggestion.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I wish to confirm with the Minister of State that companies that run data centres will be eligible under the TBESS to get as much as €30,000 per month if they have three meter point reference numbers, MPRNs, and up to a maximum of €500,000 in total.

Deputy Damien English

There are a number of schemes. Under the TBESS, the maximum that any company can draw down if it has a number of locations and MPRNs is €30,000 per month. For example, a retailer might have seven or eight stores. It depends on the ownership mechanism, but the cap will be €30,000 and will apply to companies across the board. I cannot say who will or will not apply for it. I believe that up to 1,000 have already applied.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The Minister of State can confirm that data centres are eligible for the scheme and could draw down a maximum of €30,000 per month.

Deputy Damien English

It is open to any business.

Deputy Paul Murphy

At a time when ordinary people are struggling to pay their bills and worrying about what will happen over the winter, how is it being justified as a policy decision that people, through the State, may be transferring money to some of the largest and richest corporations in the world to help them with their energy bills?

Deputy Damien English

We will monitor the drawdown of the scheme and its implications over the coming months. We will see whether we can make improvements to the scheme as we proceed. What we as a Department have to focus on are the hundreds of thousands of businesses that badly need this money ASAP to support their enterprises and jobs. When I speak to them, they are not obsessed with who else is getting money. They are obsessed with what they are getting. That they need the money ASAP is the bottom line and is why we are concentrating our efforts-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

I will revert to my question. How can the Government justify asking people who are struggling to pay their bills or put food on the table to hand over money to some of the richest corporations in the world to help the latter with their bills?

Deputy Damien English

Potentially hundreds of thousands of businesses will apply for this. I cannot justify or explain every potential applicant. When we see who draws it down, we can discuss it further. If we can make changes to improve it, we will.

What are we doing in the budget that was announced? Two things. This is to allocate this funding to support hundreds of businesses who badly need it as soon as possible. Within that, some businesses do not need it or could survive without it. That can happen. In other situations, which are not for our Department, families are under serious pressure. The €11 billion package in the budget of a few months ago is mainly to support individuals and families under extreme pressure due to the cost of living. Most people recognise that will assist them through a difficult time. That is the response to them.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am asking why the Government did not exclude a category of businesses. I am not asking about particular businesses. I am asking why the Government did not say that huge energy users, such as data centres run by some of the richest corporations in the world, were excluded from this scheme to get State funding.

Deputy Damien English

There are a number of schemes to help a range of businesses and we wanted to design them as quickly as possible under the EU framework to reach businesses who need help and support. Within that are businesses of all shapes and sizes, Irish-owned and not Irish-owned, which might avail of these grants and which, we can argue until the cows come home, do not need them. It is more important to concentrate our time and efforts on reaching those who need it.

Deputy Paul Murphy

So it is because of speed.

Deputy Damien English

It is speed and the legal mechanism to be able to reach these companies. If you tie it up in knots and try to segregate and pick out people who you think should not get it, that can complicate a scheme. We have to design the scheme to be as uncomplicated as possible and make it available as quickly as possible.

Deputy Paul Murphy

How does paying data centres for their energy usage tally, correlate or cohere with the Government's rhetorical commitment to act on climate change? We are keeping Moneypoint open on fossil fuels in order to provide electricity for data centres, which use more electricity than all the rural homes in Ireland combined. Is that not a deep incoherence in policy?

Deputy Damien English

There are two things there. The Department published an updated policy on data centres which I am happy to come in here to discuss at length today or any day members want to do that. That sets out where we stand in relation to data centres. They have responsibilities to reduce their energy usage. They support society and create many jobs. Each individual data centre, you could argue, does not create thousands of jobs, but it supports thousands of jobs. Is the Deputy totally opposed to data centres or just opposed to having them in Ireland? I am not sure where he stands on that, but they are needed to support most people in their daily lives.

As to the companies which can draw this down, that is something we can monitor when the scheme is up and running. We will be in a position to have this conversation at a later stage. The Deputy is assuming they will apply. I do not know if they will. We will see. There are a number of schemes which different sectors can avail of. We will track usage of them. The scheme is mainly here to reach and support many SMEs. The cap is in place to deal with a situation where companies might be able to eat into the scheme. The funds we have are limited. The cap is there to prevent some companies drawing down too much of this and reducing the pot for everybody else. We think the scheme is quite well designed. It does not mean it is perfect. No one can claim that.

Deputy Paul Murphy

When the Minister for Finance was asked about this issue, he said the Department of business, enterprise and innovation has indicated it will bring forward a scheme to try to offer support to higher energy users "a little later in the year". There will be another scheme to facilitate companies like data centres. What is that scheme?

Deputy Damien English

The Deputy keeps referencing data centres.

Deputy Paul Murphy

They are the biggest higher energy users.

Deputy Damien English

Some of them have responsibilities to create their own energy and have committed to doing so. Regarding future development of data centres, in light of the shortage of supply for the coming years, a limited number will be allowed and they will have to prove how important they are to Ireland Inc. That is part of their journey.

On future schemes, we are constantly working with our agencies - IDA, Enterprise Ireland - to track the number of companies who might need other assistance. Some of those scheme under the frameworks are linked to turnover and profits. We are not-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Is a scheme coming for higher energy users?

Deputy Damien English

There is not a scheme designed yet, as the Deputy says, for data centres. We have a number of schemes now in place, thankfully, and businesses can draw down supports before Christmas-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Will there be a scheme by the end of the year? We are nearly at the end of the year.

Deputy Damien English

Can I finish?

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am running out of time.

Deputy Damien English

There will not be a scheme by the end of the year. For all sizes of business under all sorts of pressure with energy, we are constantly looking at new initiatives and supports, at what is happening across Europe and looking at designing new schemes. Will new schemes come forward next year? If they are needed in various sectors, that is something we hope to be in a position to do. None of us knows what will happen in the months ahead with energy bills. We are trying to put supports in place for those businesses who need it now, and support their jobs.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank the guests for coming. The Minister of State has outlined the importance of TBESS. Hopefully it will give the supports required but it needs to get out there quickly. The Minister of State mentioned the retail space and a significant number of small SMEs are badly caught at the moment. As they are finding it very difficult, anything the Government can do to expedite moneys under that scheme would be most needed.

The Minister of State referenced the employee permits the Department processed in 2021 was about 28,000. Does he have any idea where the trajectory for that is in 2022, considering we are putting more money and employment into supporting that process?

I welcome the European Space Agency support the Government is providing. What the Minister of State has outlined is important and a great technological development area in which Ireland should be productive in future. I would like to see it pushed out to other TUs beyond the Dublin university space.

Regarding the future growth loan scheme, now the growth sustainability loan scheme, the Minister of State highlighted that 70% is to increase competitiveness and productivity and 30% is directed at improving environmental sustainability. How will the Department track that activity? For many companies, sustainability is a long-term strategic objective whereas they are concerned at the moment with keeping their head above water and meeting the challenges of business today. The majority of loans that will be accessed will be to manage costs and increase productivity and competitiveness. That is one question.

Deputies Stanton and Bruton registered the issue of sectoral supports, which I have been shouting about for some time. We cannot be all things to all people. Certain sectors in the SME space need support to a far greater level than, let us say, data centres. That should be looked at.

My final point is on the approval rating for pillar bank finance and the take-up of the scheme. The Minister of State has highlighted that the scheme looks to be nearly fully subscribed already and that, on the last scheme, only two companies defaulted. That raises two questions. First, do the companies using the scheme need the finance or are they just looking to access cheap finance? Second, a problem during Covid was the number of companies trying to avail of the scheme to which the pillar banks would not lend, even though the risk to the bank was only 20%. How is the Government monitoring that? If only two companies defaulted so far in the future growth and loan scheme, that suggests a large number of companies probably did not need that finance. I would expect that to be higher, as, I think, would anyone in banking who is lending out money. It suggests the scheme only works for companies with healthy balance sheets and good credentials. Unfortunately, it will not really support SMEs with a difficult track record but who need support.

Deputy Damien English

There are a number of questions there. I will try to answer them all but if I miss some, the Chair might correct me. On the two loan products, the one most useful to SMEs under financial pressure to survive in the coming years is the loan guarantee because it is to do with working capital and finance now. That is the most urgent and useful one and the Covid version of that has been proven to help close to 8,000 businesses in the last couple of years. That will be of assistance.

The future growth loan ones are on the sustainability side. They are about future-proofing of businesses to make sure they are in a position to compete all over the world and can invest in technologies and innovations for the business, which the Deputy is very much into.

That is what it is about and should, in itself, position the company to be able to pay down its debts more easily in the future. I do not expect a higher rate of default, to be honest.

The Deputy asked about the 70% and 30% breakdown. It is part of the EU framework to allow for a 30% investment with regard to one's green journey. Most businesses are interested in that. If one is investing in the future of one's business and looks ahead at a loan product of more than ten years, one should be making such an investment to reduce one's demand for energy and one's costs. Businesses should also do so in response to our targets as a country and the targets of their customer base, which expects companies to do this. It is an acceptable requirement. While I agree with the Deputy that businesses are under immense pressure at present just to survive for the next year or two, this is a different product that looks over the next ten years to invest in today. It covers the credit guarantee as well.

The schemes work quite well. We would have liked to have them in place in response to the financial crisis back in 2010-11 but credit guarantees came a little bit later than that. The schemes recognise that some sectors and businesses find it difficult to raise finance from the existing lending network. Putting in place a State guarantee de-risks that and enables a greater availability of money in the form of more approvals for companies that might not be able to pass the test because the criteria will be changed. That is the benefit of such a guarantee. It helps companies that might struggle to get finance.

There was also a high level of due diligence in these schemes and in the companies that are availing of the schemes and drawing down. The banks, credit unions and non-traditional lenders are all asked to use strong credit control criteria to do this right. We wish to support viable businesses but they are not there to support a business that might not be able to pay it down. It is a loan at the end of the day. We wish to have such due diligence. The future growth loan scheme and the GSLS are generally for companies that are not necessarily drawing on other borrowings as well. They are generally to invest in the future of business. Default rates are quite low throughout Europe. It is not just an Irish phenomenon. They are quite low across the board. One is probably investing in companies that have very strong business cases and plans, are taking on international markets and thinking ahead and are usually in quite a good position. We wish to encourage that growth and ambition because that is future-proofing the job potential as well.

With regard to the permits, the figures for 2021 were approximately 27,000 or 28,000. We are on track to be somewhere around 34,000 or 35,000 this year. I quoted the figure of 40,000 because we still have a few months to go, potentially. There seems to be considerable demand for permits, possibly reflecting where we are as a society. More than 2,500,000 people are at work. Most sectors and businesses we talk to tell us they cannot get enough people. They are looking for more talent.

Later today, we will announce the confirmation of the permits for the home care sector, which every Deputy has brought to my attention in the past year. To be clear, the permits should never be the long-term solution. They should be of a temporary assistance while the sector or various industries put in place new training programmes and innovations to reduce demand. They should not be a permanent solution but we expect the demand to continue and that is why we have had to put extra resources into it this year to deal with the backlog from last year. At one stage, there was a six-month waiting list with more than 10,000 permits in the queue. The figure is less than 1,000 now and the waiting list has gone from 22 weeks back down two or three weeks in most cases, which is a positive for the country.

Generally, sectors such as the nursing home or home care sectors are under pressure for staff and we try to respond to that. Allocating extra money through this process and the teams enables that process because we wish to be able to compete at a high level. Historically, we were proactive in our section and were ahead of most countries in Europe with our timelines. That slipped because of the pressure over the past year. It was probably similar throughout Europe but we have it back up to an acceptable timeframe and we wish to keep it at that if at all possible.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

May I make two observations?

Chairman

They must be made very quickly.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce has sent around a report today which would make good reading with regard to employee problems experienced. As for the EI allocation of moneys of €52 million, I suggest it needs to be significantly looked at. There will be many small tranches of money within that. It suggests approximately 500 companies could be impacted. There is an ongoing difficulty with regard to the time it takes to draw down loans, not just for companies to prepare their own participation but with regard to achieving grant status and getting the payment.

Deputy Damien English

We are constantly working with Enterprise Ireland to see how we can improve the situation on both ends but we have to understand it is taxpayers' money. There are checks and balances and that dreaded red tape to go through. However, when one is availing of quite a high amount of taxpayers' money, those checks and balances have to be in place. It is not always to do with that. It is to do with a company's timing as well and when it will make the investment and then the matched funding or drawdown from the various schemes from Enterprise Ireland but we track this. Tommy Murray in our section does much with EI on a weekly basis to work with it on the various schemes. There are also issues with trying to get schemes approved. Many of them come under EU rules or have to go through the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We might decide today to open a new fund but the story beyond that will take a little bit longer.

The Deputy asked me earlier on about the number of educational stakeholders and partners availing of the European Space Agency, ESA, funds and the scheme. We wish to see many more. I know the Deputy is very interested in some of our new technological universities. I wish to see more of them get involved in these programmes. We have been very successful in Ireland with the blend of the education system and research community, both private and public, drawing down EU and ESA funds. We wish to increase that. We can continue on the journey and I am open to any conversation to increase it.

Deputy David Stanton

The first issue I will raise is that of the fishing sector with regard to fuel. Will the Minister give some consideration to support of those businesses? They are businesses. I do not expect an answer now but I wished to take the opportunity to ask the Minister of State to look into it.

Deputy Damien English

I apologise to the Deputy. I meant to address the issue earlier on. It does not just fall to our Department. There are a number of options here with regard to the Department of Transport with regard to fuel supports, as well as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Deputy is right, to correct it we have adjusted the loan guarantee criteria to allow those in the fishing community to avail of that scheme as well. I am conscious businesses under pressure just do not want loans, but we have to be honest; it is a combination of grants and supports and loans at the right cost at the right time that will assist business through a difficult time. It is certainly under watch.

Deputy David Stanton

I wished to bring it up because it seems to have slipped through the net, pardon the pun. It is an area that could get some support. The second issue is that of the EI schemes not being drawn down. The Minister of State has told us there are considerable savings here which he has allocated to other areas which is fine. However, can we be sure that if some of these companies were not ready to draw down this money for whatever reason, they will get it in the next tranche and will not be excluded because they did not make the deadline?

Deputy Damien English

We are okay on that. That is fine.

Deputy David Stanton

The final issue is of something we could be spending money on. It is related to what I asked earlier on with regard to the European Space Agency. The Chairman has raised this in the Dáil with a number of our colleagues, that is, our possible membership of CERN, the European organisation for nuclear research. I think it would cost €1.3 million to become an associate member and I have seen reports which indicate we may get €90 million in benefits back. We are one of the few countries that is not a member. This may have changed recently but I am not aware if it has. Will the Minister of State come back to us with the reason we are not spending the €1.3 million when the research tells us we are to get back to €90 million. Some 22 member states are members. Malta, Luxembourg and Ireland are the only ones, as far as I know, that are not members. I could be corrected on all of that but it is something that, given the considerable benefits the European Space Agency is bringing to us, it perplexes me as to why we are not part of CERN.

Deputy Damien English

I have to say I agree with the Deputy. I cannot confirm why or how we are not a member. It is not longer within our Department. Rather, it is within the remit of the Department led by the Minister, Deputy Harris. However, we referenced that in our science strategy, innovation 2030 and I believe Impact 2030 does too. Membership of these associations, CERN being one of them and the ESA another, are extremely worthwhile for our country. It is about judging of when one joins them or what type of membership one takes on and how much we allocate but I am certainly an advocate. I can see the benefits of all of them, to be honest, but it is about timing, management and budget. I will check with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to see where it is at with that. We do not longer have the budget for it any more. I wish we did.

Deputy David Stanton

It was under the remit of-----

Deputy Damien English

It was until 18 months or so ago-----

Deputy David Stanton

The changeover. However, my interest here is that businesses can benefit considerably from being part of this and we are the committee of business.

I do not know why it is not happening. I thank the Minister of State for his support for the suggestion.

Deputy Damien English

I will check it for Deputy Stanton and get a response back to him. From having been involved in this conversation previously, I know that you make a decision that you wants to be part of something and then you are into negotiations about the how, the when and the size of the cheque. That is why, even with this opportunity here when we can afford to do it, it is worth our while to pay more money into some of these. That is why we are asking for extra money for the ESA. It is about timing as well. I presume it is a similar conversation with CERN. I would certainly encouraging it. The Department would as well. We will link back. With the changeover, which is proving to be quite successful, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is bringing a great focus to research and to Science Foundation Ireland through higher education, apprenticeships, etc. There are great benefits, but it means I cannot answer for all their money. I will certainly track it for the Deputy and come back to him.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

As nobody else has indicated to speak, I propose that we agree the consideration the Supplementary Estimate by the committee has been included. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy English, for assisting the committee with its consideration of the Supplementary Estimate.