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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 1999

Vol. 2 No. 4

Estimates for Public Services, 1999.

Vote 1 - President’s Establishment (Revised).

Vote 2 - Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament (Revised).

Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey (Revised).

Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised).

Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised).

Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised).

Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised).

Vote 10 - Office of Public Works (Revised).

Vote 11 - State Laboratory (Revised).

Vote 12 - Secret Service (Revised).

Vote 15 - Valuation Office (Revised).

Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission (Revised).

Vote 17 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised).

Vote 44 - Flood Relief (Revised).

Vote 45 - Year 2000 Expenditure (Revised).

On behalf of the Select Committee, I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy and his officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Estimates falling within the remit of the Department namely Vote 1 - President's Establishment, Vote 2 - Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament, Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey, Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance, Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances, Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners, Vote 10 - Office of Public Works, Vote 11 - State Laboratory, Vote 12 - Secret Service, Vote 15 - Valuation Office, Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission, Vote 17 - Office of the Ombudsman, Vote 44 - Flood Relief and Vote 45 - Year 2000 Expenditure.

A proposed timetable has been circulated for today's meeting. It will allow for opening statements by the Minister and Opposition spokespersons and then open discussions on Votes 2, 6, 9 and then all the other Votes, excluding the Office of Public Works. It is proposed that the Office of Public Works Vote will then be taken allowing the Minister for State and Opposition spokespersons to make opening statements followed by an open discussion on the Office of Public Works Vote. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I am pleased to come before you today to introduce the 1999 Estimates for the Finance Group of Votes, excluding Vote No. 10 - Office of Public Works, and Vote 44 - Flood Relief, which I understand will be taken later today by my colleague, Deputy Martin Cullen, Minister of State at the Department with responsibility for the Office of Public Works.

The Finance group of Estimates totals more than £429 million. The largest Vote in the group is the Vote for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners which amounts to a net total of more than £167 million. The next largest Vote is for Superannuation and Retired Allowances which amounts to more than £106 million while the Vote for my Department is the third largest at more than £46 million. Members will note that there is a new Vote this year, namely Vote 45 entitled Year 2000 Expenditure, to which I will return later. In addition there is a new Vote No. 4 which shows separately for the first time, expenditure on Ordnance Survey Ireland which was previously included in the former Valuation and Ordnance Survey Vote which now only includes the Valuation Office.

The separation of the Valuation Office and Ordnance Survey Votes reflects the development of the two offices. In his 1997 budget speech, the Minister for Finance announced his intention to establish Ordnance Survey Ireland as an agency rather than a sub-office of the Department of Finance. This was to allow greater autonomy in the ongoing development of its commercial activities.

Members have already been provided with background briefing on the Estimates for which approval is sought for 1999. During our debate this afternoon I will be happy to provide any further information Members may require.

I propose, before dealing with the details of individual Votes, to follow the usual practice of summarising recent economic developments and the overall state of public finances.

Ireland has experienced a period of outstanding economic performance in the past five years as illustrated by the following:

- GDP has grown by more than 9 per cent in the period 1994-98. This compares with an EU average annual growth rate of 2.6 per cent since 1993; in 1993 the rate of unemployment was almost 17 per cent. It has now declined to around 6 per cent.

- In 1998, the number of long-term unemployed amounted to more than 10 per cent of the labour force. At present, the corresponding figure is approximately 3 per cent of the labour force.

- The Exchequer borrowing requirement was eliminated in 1998 and an Exchequer surplus of £747 million or 1.5 per cent of GNP was recorded. The level of Government debt in relation to GDP has declined from 120 per cent in 1986 to 52 per cent at end 1998.

Social partnership agreements between the Government, employees and other interests have played a crucial role during this period of fiscal consolidation and economic expansion. Low inflation, moderate wage increases linked to targeted tax reductions and improved social services have underpinned our economic progress. This stability has been a key factor in encouraging business confidence and strong investment by both foreign and domestic companies.

Other factors such as a favourable demographic structure and high levels of public investment in physical and human capital, undertaken with the help of EU Structural and Cohesion Funds, have also played their part in our recent economic progress.

Despite our impressive economic performance in recent years, we cannot afford to be complacent. Already there are signs of pressures which we will have to address. Our inflation rate has been higher than that of many of our EU partners. However Ireland's performance has improved in recent months, falling back from a peak of 3 per cent last August to 2.3 per cent at present as measured by the EU Index of Consumer Prices. There is some evidence of wage inflation accompanied by skill shortages particularly in the construction and IT sectors and there are substantial increases in house prices.

If such developments were to continue, they would represent a serious erosion of our competitive position. As a small open economy, vitally dependent on exports, any loss in competitiveness, vis-à-vis our trading partners would be very serious both for growth and jobs. This is particularly true in the context of EMU. It is imperative that we avoid excessive wage increases which would have the effect of pushing up the cost of exports. Control of public expenditure is essential if we are to avoid higher tax rates which, in turn, would lead to demands for pay increases. The Government has also taken action to ease the rate of increase in house prices.

The OECD in its recent two-yearly report on the Irish economy, has warned that unrealistic expectations could lead to an overshooting of sustainable wage levels and a sharp, cost-based slowdown in growth to well below potential rates. Nevertheless, the OECD considers that most of the factors which have contributed to our recent performance can contribute to performance in the future, though at declining rates. The OECD also raised the question of how much longer output can grow at these superior rates. However, it suggested this will, to a large extent, be determined by how quickly the well known bottlenecks are overcome and to what extent spending and income restraint occur.

The Government was, of course, aware of these issues and took account of them in framing both the Stability Programme 1999-2001 and the 1999 budget. In deciding on the 1999 budget, the Government's primary objective was the continuation of sustained economic and employment growth, supported by social partnership, low inflation and prudent budgetary policies.

The ESRI, in its latest quarterly economic commentary published last week, was once again positive about the prospects for the Irish economy. It suggested the economy can adjust smoothly to a more sustainable rate of growth which it believes to be in the region of 4% to 5% a year. However, it highlighted the danger that excessive wage settlements could undermine a smooth transition. Incidentally, with reference to the ESRI report, neither I nor my colleagues have been advocating or practising what the ESRI calls "fiscal masochism". However, we advocate - as do the ESRI - a responsible approach to public expenditure, especially in regard to current expenditure.

The Government believes the resources now available due to favourable economic conditions must be used in a balanced way. The 1999 budget continued the process of tax reform, while addressing infrastructure needs. The Government also intends to prepare the public finances for the longer term costs of an ageing population in the early decades of the next century.

We are also determined to ensure future wage developments, in the context of social partnership, will be consistent with maintaining the economy's underlying competitiveness. As we approach the end of the current agreement with the social partners, and prepare for discussions on a new agreement, the overriding consideration for all involved must be the continuation of sustainable economic growth.

While on the subject of pay generally, Deputies will be aware that, despite the very substantial increases in the Exchequer Pay and Pensions Bill over the past couple of years, there are still significant pay pressures within the public service. The use of industrial action, in one form or another, by different groups to secure local bargaining settlements under the PCW which were clearly in excess of the norms agreed in that programme is no way to manage incomes policy in the public service.

The immediate priority must be to ensure there is no repeat of the PCW local bargaining experience under Partnership 2000. Unlike the PCW, Partnership 2000 contains an agreed explicit limit of 2 per cent on the cost of local bargaining. In the public service, this local bargaining element is payable not earlier than 1 July 1999 and is conditional on there being verified progress to a satisfactory level on implementation of the modernisation programme set out in chapter 10 of the partnership. The Government has made it clear the 2 per cent limit must be adhered to and this is reflected in the new pay management arrangements I announced in the budget. As Members will have noticed, this year there is no Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions. Civil Service Departments and other public service employers have been pre-funded for the cost of the agreed Partnership 2000 terms and there will be no central contingency fund to fall back on, as was the case under the PCW.

Looking further ahead, negotiations on a possible successor to Partnership 2000 are likely to get under way towards the end of this year. The Government is anxious to negotiate a new national programme with the social partners, but not at any cost. In any new agreement, the Government must be assured there will be industrial peace in the public service and the pay provisions of the agreement will be adhered to in practice. Pay determination in the public service agreement must move away from the very rigid system of relativities that has operated in the past. My Department has begun talks with the public service unions on the need for a new approach to pay determination with a particular focus on how, in the context of public pay policy, pay can be more closely related to performance. These discussions are still at an early stage but the outcome will be crucial in terms of the future of national partnership.

The economic progress of recent years has demonstrated how much can be achieved by all the social partners striving together towards a common aim. If all sides keep in mind the benefits to be derived from the continuation of responsible economic policies, our recent success can be continued and reinforced.

I now propose to deal with some of the principal Votes in the finance group. Vote 2 concerns the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament. The 1999 net provision of £39.813 million shows an increase of 8 per cent on the provisional out-turn of £36.874 million for 1998. The increase is attributable to a number of factors including the provision for pay and pension increases due in 1999 under Partnership 2000 and the need to provide for certain arrears of pay due under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work which, for a variety of reasons, could not be paid in 1998. In addition, provision is included on a once-off basis in these Estimates for essential telecommunications cabling work which needs to be carried out in Leinster House and for the buy-out by the broadcast unit of a leasing contract on broadcast equipment in one of the committee rooms.

Vote 6 concerns the Department of Finance. The Estimate for my Department amounts to £46.768 million or an increase of 44 per cent on the 1998 out-turn. The increase in 1999 over the actual Estimates provision in 1998 is 26 per cent. The large increase over 1998 can be attributed to additional funding for the administrative subheads AI to A8; the Institute of Public Administration - subhead E; various technical-type activities relating to EU Structural Funds - subhead L; the Euro Changeover Board; the new claims management agency - subhead R; and the new change management fund - subhead S.

The bulk of the increase in the administrative subheads is accounted for by the need to address the year 2000 problem within the Department and the provision and management of modern telecommunications infrastructure for the Civil Service. The additional funding for the Institute of Public Administration is a once-off capital contribution to fund new buildings which are required.

Under subhead L, £2.898 million is provided to fund various technical assistance-type activities related to EU Structural Funds pending recoupment, usually at an aid rate of 75 per cent, from the European Commission.

The activities which are eligible for aid are those included in the CSF technical assistance programme and relate mainly to the evaluation and information requirements of the CSF, improvements to the management of the CSF and the administration costs of the regional authorities in respect of their functions with regard to EU funds. In this year's subhead £750,000 is being provided for an information system for the management of EU Structural Fund and Cohesion Fund data for the Department of Finance. The planned information system will be in place and operational for the next round of funding.

Additional funding of £906,000 is required for the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland in 1999. As Members are aware, on 1 January 1999 EMU began and the euro came into being. The euro can now be used for cashless transactions and euro notes and coins will be put into circulation on 1 January 2002. It is fair to say our participation in EMU and our adoption of the euro is among the most significant economic developments since the foundation of the State.

I established the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland in May 1998. The board's two basic tasks are to oversee the implementation of the changeover to the euro and to provide public information. I will deal briefly with the work of the board under each of these headings. In the implementation area, the board was involved in the preparation of the Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998, which was passed by the Oireachtas last July. It was also fully consulted in the preparation of the third edition of the National Changeover Plan, which I published last November. The board has also been very active as regards public information and I am glad to acknowledge the part-funding we receive from the European Union in this regard. The board has now embarked on the third phase of its public information programme, with its keynote phrase of encouraging people to "think euro". This phase of the campaign is focused on publicising the conversion rate between the euro and the Irish pound.

A provision of £800,000 is included in subhead R to meet the expenses of the proposed new claims management agency to handle accidental personal injury and property compensation claims against the State.

The final item in my Department's Vote to which I would like to draw Members' attention is the proposed change management fund, the provision for which is £5 million in 1999. The purpose of this fund is to co-finance the cost of implementing, in individual Departments and offices, initiatives arising from the SMI Delivering Better Government programme of change.

Vote 9 concerns the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. The net Estimate for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners at £167.4 million is up £4.452 million or 3 per cent on the 1998 out-turn. Pay increases of £2.19 million and increased computer spending of £2.4 million account for the bulk of this increase. The increase in computer spending is to provide for major developments such as the euro, the impact of year 2000, freedom of information and integrated tax processing. As members are aware, integrated tax processing will enable a consolidated view of a taxpayer's affairs across all tax heads to be taken as opposed to the present single tax head approach. The implementation of integrated tax processing, ITP, is proceeding apace and I am glad to be able to inform the committee that as of 6 April 1999 the collection of PAYE and PRSI has been brought under this framework. This replaced a non year 2000 compliant system. Among the many new features are detailed statements of account that show customers their financial status with Revenue. Internally, the system will enable the automation of routine manual processes thus freeing more resources for dealing with non-compliant customers. Work on incorporating VAT into the ITP framework has commenced and is scheduled to be in place by the first quarter of 2000. Other taxes will be brought into the framework as soon as possible thereafter.

Revenue's investment in computer technology over the years has helped to contain costs and provide flexible systems for a dynamic business environment. Substantial investment continues to be made by Revenue with almost £10 million being invested this year. The completion of the overall programme will put Ireland at the forefront of tax administration in Europe.

As I have said on several occasions in the past, we have seen a transformation over the past ten years in the way the Revenue Commissioners perform their functions. This more business like approach is reflected in the level of tax revenue collected and in the way in which the Revenue Commissioners interact with taxpayers in a more client oriented manner.

Most taxpayers are compliant but some will always be non-compliant, even with lowering of tax rates. Revenue's powers to pursue non-compliance have been considerably strengthened in the Finance Act, 1999, and the Revenue Commissioners recently announced the assignment of additional staff resources to pursue non-compliance through more investigation work and a more active prosecution policy. The new powers are aimed at the non-compliant. Tax compliant taxpayers need have no fears. The Revenue Commissioners have made it clear that the new powers will be exercised in a targeted, judicious and balanced manner taking full account of the rights of the taxpayers concerned.

Finally, Members will note that there is a new Vote 45 - Year 2000 Expenditure - the provision for which is £40 million. As Members are aware there has been in place since 1996 an ongoing and very active Government year 2000 compliance programme to address in the Civil Service and in public service agencies the millennium bug problem which can arise with computers and other equipment. As there is no precedent for the year 2000 problem, it is of course widely accepted that it is not possible to anticipate exactly what corrective action will be required and what the final overall cost will be to the Exchequer. Vote 45 has been established as a contingency provision in order to provide for the unpredictable costs of dealing with this problem, particularly in relation to embedded systems in the public service and is in addition to the provision of £12.8 million which was included in the 1998 and 1999 Estimates for the Civil Service to address the year 2000 problem. I am satisfied that this substantial sum of £40 million should be adequate to cover any essential additional expenditure that may arise.

An interdepartmental year 2000 monitoring committee has been overseeing the achievement of year 2000 compliance in IT systems and other office equipment and plant in the Civil Service since 1997 and has been reporting on the level of progress to Government every two months. In general, year 2000 compliance programmes in Departments and offices are progressing well. At this stage, approximately one-third of Departments and offices have completed all business critical year 2000 projects and most of the remainder are on target to complete their remaining projects before or by the Government deadline of the end of July.

There are two systems - the PULSE project in An Garda Síochána and the fishery protection information system in the Defence Forces - which will not be compliant until September-October. Both are large-scale complex replacement systems which have been in development for a number of years and, although the bulk of remedial work will be completed on these systems by the Government deadline, it will take until the September-October timeframe to implement them fully because of their size and complexity. As a result of the efforts made to date, Ireland is well advanced in preparing for the year 2000 problem. Reports by international industry analysts and monitoring bodies, such as the Gartner Group and the Global 2000 co-ordinating group, rate Ireland at the best state of readiness. This is comparable to countries such as Australia, Canada, Holland, Sweden, UK, and USA.

That completes my review of the Estimates in the Finance group. I thank the members of the committee for their attention and, as I have already said, I will try to answer any questions they may have.

I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee. In particular I thank them for the very good briefing material we have received. It is certainly far easier to deal with an Estimate when everything is laid out so fully and when the notes are so detailed. Indeed, the meeting is hardly necessary given the notes which have been circulated as everybody is well informed. This manner of taking the Estimate makes the Administration far more accountable to the Oireachtas than under the traditional approach which prevailed until recently and which could be compared to the procedures on Second Stage of a Bill.

It is clear from the Minister's speech that the economy continues to perform well. Official Ireland in terms of statistics is certainly a great success story. It is also apparent that the fruits of economic growth are being felt throughout the country. This is evident from the number of cars on the road, the price of houses, the increasing numbers at work, expenditure in pubs and hotels and the fact that it is quite normal for many people at work to expect not only two but three overseas holidays each year. There are signs, therefore, of a boom in disposable income.

However, there is an increasing divergence between the economic analysis of the booming economy and the needs of the country as perceived by the electorate and the people. It is time to reflect on the total level of expenditure and whether we have got the correct equilibrium between the services required by the people and the amount of money we are prepared to spend on them. There will be Exchequer surpluses for the foreseeable future. It would be interesting if we all wrote on a postcard what we think the optimum surplus should be for the next five years. There would be a divergence of opinion with "guesstimates" based on nothing other than a hunch. It is very hard to argue a case that a surplus of £1 billion is inadequate, that a surplus of £2.5 billion is adequate and that a surplus of £3 billion is too much. This issue must be addressed.

If the issue is viewed from the ground up rather than from the perspective of the Department down, it is clear that increasingly people cannot understand why in such booming times, with such resources available to the Exchequer, their needs are not being met. One of the main areas in this context is the health services. Since the Government took office two years ago the waiting lists for public patients awaiting surgery in hospitals have increased by 20 per cent. This is a huge increase in terms of numbers and in terms of pain and suffering across the country. Is it fair that this should continue? The health services are very divided. Up to 40 per cent of people have private health insurance and do not have to wait as they have access to the best of services comparable to anything anywhere in the world. Yet, a public patient who is old, disabled or has no money could wait for two and half or three years to get into hospital. I do not think this is sustainable in modern Ireland when measured against the review of the economy provided by the Minister and it must be addressed.

There are other areas in the economy which are also unsustainable and where there are bottlenecks and roadblocks. Unless these are addressed the boom we are expecting as outlined by the ESRI of a sustainable growth rate of between 4 per cent and 5 per cent will not be met. I know the Minister increased the capital budget for this year, but the Minister seems to be operating on a kind of hunch, saying it should be sufficient to increase provision by 28 per cent or 30 per cent. I presume that in the national plan the Minister will look at the needs which exist and work out the cost over a period of time. This will give him a better idea of the kind of investment required.

There is no doubt that the country's infrastructure, particularly in terms of roads and public transport, is totally inadequate given our economy and it is getting worse all the time. We are reaching the point where the inadequacy will affect our potential to grow.

Increasing house prices is another issue which has been raised by the committee on previous occasions, and it is not necessary to examine it here in detail. If one looks back at the records of the Department of the Environment and Local Government it will be found that there were more local authority houses built in the early 1970s when we had very little money than are being built currently. There has been a philosophical change in attitude, namely, that we cannot risk public expenditure on big public housing programmes and that we no longer like large housing estates. However, people have to live somewhere and expenditure in the housing sector must be examined, as must expenditure in servicing land and the connection between house prices and serviced land. We must also examine the excessive profits builders are making. In very simple terms it seems taxpayers are providing funding for local authorities to service land while the owners and developers of the land are taking the profit. Young couples living in Dublin with two salaries, be they teachers, gardaí or civil servants, are barely able to make the mortgage repayments for starter houses which are miles from the city centre and necessitate a long commute everyday. This does not match the statistical version of the Celtic tiger.

We know the statistics and the same economic policies have been more or less maintained by different parties when in Government. We can all take the praise or the blame depending on how one wishes to look at it. However, new issues are arising and I suggest that before next year's budget the Minister examines whether there can be a new point of equilibrium between the demands for services and to clear the logjams affecting the economy and life in the country and the amount of expenditure the Minister is prepared to dedicate to addressing these issues.

The population is increasing, quite dramatically in some regions, but there does not seem to be any allowance in the Estimates for an increase in population. There will be a greater cost if more people are looking for extra services. This is clearly true in the education sector and blindingly obvious in terms of the Department of Health and Children. There is an increase in the number of births in Dublin, Cork and Limerick and in the North Eastern Health Board region with additional demands on maternity hospitals. Another trend is that many people who emigrated are returning on UK and American pensions. They are major consumers of health services. Much of the additional money the Minister allocated to the Department of Health and Children last year has been taken up by the extra people who require the services provided. This is why waiting lists are increasing. There seems to be no allowance for the increase in population, particularly in the numbers who are consumers of the health services.

I agree with the Minister's analysis on competitiveness. If we get things wrong in terms of competitiveness growth will not continue. The next wage agreement will have to be more than a mix of tax breaks on wages. Other rewards for workers will have to be included, conditional on the way in which the economy performs. It will have to include discretionary elements related to competitiveness which can be withdrawn if competitiveness is affected. I have argued several times that, in effect, there have been four devaluations or quasi-devaluations to maintain our competitiveness since 1986 and that option is now off the table. There is only one way competitiveness will be restored in future, namely, through a short, sharp shock in the economy. It may not be too short if the shock knocks the confidence out of the economy and those who have returned to work and make their lives here decide again to emigrate.

The Minister will have to review all spending programmes. On a number of occasions I have asked him about the review of spending programmes which was commenced in his Department. However, he did not refer to it in his speech. Has progress been made?

From reading the notes on many aspects of the Estimates it seems that additional money is being invested in consultancies and quangos. In particular there is quite an amount of additional expenditure on consultancies. Excluding consultancies and quangos, the basic services are not getting that much in terms of additional funding.

I wish to briefly refer to two Votes. Under the Vote for Houses of the Oireachtas, something will have to be done for retired Members of the Houses. By any standards, people who have given over 20 years service to the State as Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas are on extremely low pensions on retirement. I think this must be addressed and I would like the Minister to comment on it.

Regarding the Votes for Revenue, the last report of the Revenue Commissioners I saw talked about the inability of Revenue to do all it might like in terms of audits and, in particular, random audits as it lacks the necessary staff. The report drew attention to the lack of staff in other areas which inhibited Revenue from doing as good a job as it felt it could do. Has this been corrected in any way or have additional staff been employed? Have additional tax inspectors been assigned to the areas of need identified in the last report of the Revenue Commissioners?

I have a series of questions but I will not put them until the question and answer session.

We will discuss Vote 2 as agreed, then Vote 6 and Vote 9, and then the other Votes. Vote 2 concerns the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament.

Deputy Noonan posed a question about pensions of former Members of the Oireachtas. As Deputies are aware, former Members of the Oireachtas have formed an association and have been meeting with various parliamentarians. Quite recently a sub-committee of the group met with me to raise various issues. The pensions of former Members or the widows of former Members are very, very low and this raises other questions regarding pension policy in the wider public service. We appreciate that relativities in terms of changes are jealously guarded by other groups in the Civil Service. I will give the matter further consideration but it is not that easy to find a solution. However, I accept the point that former Members of the Oireachtas are not well looked after. Having met their association I will see what I can do.

Subhead C concerns expenses of delegates to other parliamentary assemblies. Part of it is explained by visits of delegates to the Western European Union. Who are our delegates to the Western European Union and what part of the Vote is concerned in this context?

I do not know off the top of my head.

I did not think we had a delegation.

Neither did I.

It appears under Vote 2, subhead C. The note says the subhead provides mainly for expenses relating to the attendance of delegates at sittings of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe - both of which we are familiar with - and the Western European Union. If this had come out before the election the Green Party would have won four seats.

I will have to plead ignorance. I am not aware of our delegation to the Western European Union. I recognise the other bodies, but did not know about delegations to the Western European Union.

Subhead D concerns the televising of procedures of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann, the Estimate being £1.186 million. What is the funding mechanism in this regard? Is it a direct grant to RTE or are the staff paid by the Houses of the Oireachtas?

My official tells me that he is not absolutely certain how the money is expended, but I will return to the Deputy on the matter. I presume it takes account of the people involved in that area, though it may include other matters. We have a cast of thousands to provide this information. It is invoiced on foot of a five year contract.

Did RTE, after tender, get the contract?

I assume that is the case, but I will send the Deputy the information.

On subhead H.10, the pension scheme for secretarial assistants for Members who are not office holders, is that different to the pension arrangements for existing secretaries?

Subhead H.10 is a pension scheme for secretarial assistants. This subhead provides for the payment of pensions to former staff employed under the scheme of secretarial assistants to Members who are not office holders. Those are the pension costs of former secretarial assistants to TDs.

Do they have the same pension scale as existing secretaries?

I assume the same criteria apply.

Delegates to the Western European Union include Deputy Roche, Deputy Ferris - I do not know to what wing of the Labour Party this issue relates - Deputy Michael Kitt and Deputy Fitzgerald, about which Deputy Noonan will be glad.

When we send a delegation to the Western European Union, it will be the best kept secret in the House.

Deputy Roche speaks about almost everything but we have not heard him speak about the Western European Union.

I will come back to Deputy Sean Ryan with the information he sought.

On appropriations-in-aid, subhead N, I see the Estimate for the sale of parliamentary publications has gone down by £104,000. What is the basis of that Estimate? Does the Minister expect fewer copies of Bills and reports to be sold?

I do not know why such an amount was provided in 1998 and why we are predicting a lower figure in 1999.

It must be based on something.

There are more electronic publications, the charge for which is less. Publications are on the Internet and people are using that facility. People are not buying these publications as much.

That is the reason.

That is a reasonable explanation.

Under subhead N, appropriations-in-aid, the Minister is expecting that Members of and visitors to the Houses of the Oireachtas will eat and drink £60,000 less in 1999 than in 1998. What is the basis of that Estimate? Is the Minister going to put us all on the diet he is on?

The figure of £150,000 is based on historic income. The figure for 1998 was regarded as somewhat excessive and higher than expected. The figure of £150,000 was the norm in the years prior to 1998. I suppose we must wait to see what happens.

We will move on to Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance.

We have heard much about the potential of developing public-private partnerships. I note there is an allocation of £200,000 for this purpose. Will the Minister outline his views on how this will develop? How does he foresee this public-private partnership operating? What will this allocation achieve in trying to develop this partnership?

Recently, I announced a pilot list of public-private partnerships which we hope will commence before the end of the year. The Deputy was involved in his very successful election campaign in north Dublin. The publication of the list did not get much attention.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Government is very committed to the concept of public-private partnerships. Notwithstanding the healthy state of Exchequer finances, we must take into account that we will getting almost half the amount from Europe than in the previous round. Even with a booming economy, there will be a gap in what is needed for infrastructural development and what the State can provide. A large amount of money is available in financial institutions which is crying out for investment opportunities and the approach the Government has adopted is to marry the two together. That is where the concept of public private partnership has come from.

We looked at what happened in the United Kingdom, which had a similar type concept known as PFI, private finance initiatives. It has successes and failures as well. I hope we will find a more successful way to do things. I strongly believe the private sector is crying out for opportunities to invest in some of these arrangements but the private sector will not have it both ways. It cannot expect the State to take the risk and for it to take the cream. I have made it quite clear that it is up to the private sector to develop its own ideas. We will put forward the projects and the private sector may send in proposals. It cannot expect the State to take risk and the bad projects while it takes the profits from the good projects.

We are not too sure how it will develop. People are very interested in it and there has been interest from abroad, including Europe and the United States. Much infrastructural development is necessary. If one takes the ESRI figures or estimates from other bodies, one will see a large amount of work needs to be done. We will see how this works and I hope some projects will be up and running by the end of 1999.

We have had some public-private partnerships in the past. Portlaoise prison is, effectively, a public-private partnership and the waste disposal treatment plant in Dublin Bay, for which Dublin Corporation is tendering, will be more or less the same. We have had some experience in the past. Bridges around the capital city could be deemed to be public-private partnerships. This, however, is a more formal approach.

I set up a unit in my Department to push other Departments, which also have people involved. IBEC and the Construction Industry Federation came forward with proposals in January 1998. Arising from that, we appointed the consultants and Farrell Grant Sparks put forward a good consultancy study at the end of June 1998 and we moved forward from there. Now we are in the process of experimenting with the concept.

If there was a need for a ring-road or a treatment plant and the local authority owned the resource, which would be the land, and wanted to put a package together, what return would the State get from entering into such a partnership and what outlay would be required?

We must see what comes up. If the State or a local authority owns the land, that would be part of the process. Some arrangement would have to be made for the State. It might be a question of the developer's level of profit. This is where we want to see what will happen. My general principles on this are simple - we let the market decide and the various Departments will then take a view as to whether it is good value for the Exchequer to proceed like this or in the traditional way. The line Departments and the various Ministers and not the Department of Finance will run the public-private partnerships and make individual decisions on projects, but we will have built up a general framework and we will decide as a policy whether to take that route in an area. Over the next two or three years we will see how it develops. I cannot say with certitude at this stage what will happen, but we have put the pilot projects on the stocks in the past few weeks and we will see how it develops.

Has the Minister worked out yet the general principles or did the consultants advise on how the private partner would be remunerated for his or her investment?

That is the great question.

Will he use shadow tolls or will he relate it to usage? What way is he working it out?

No. We will await proposals from the private sector on particular projects and see what will happen. Certainly the question of shadow tolls has been around, but my general view about them may be simplistic . For example, a shadow toll is where there is no actual toll for using a bridge or a road but the State pays the private sector so much per car using it. This does not attract me greatly. I know other Departments may be in favour of this idea, but I have a pragmatic view of it. Suppose, for example, we had allowed a shadow toll on the Westlink bridge, which I know quite well as I use it frequently. I compliment the private operator involved. He based his sums on market projections about usage and profits were expected to be small. In the meantime the economy has boomed. I wish the private operator the best of luck. He took his chances when nobody else would do so and I am much in favour of that. He will get the cream and he is entitled to it. More power to him.

If we had agreed not to have a toll and had allowed a shadow toll, the private operator would be making as much money but the Exchequer would be paying the money to him and that would be a great guarantee. The private operator would be as well off as he is at present but taxpayers from Cork to Donegal and Limerick to Kildare would be paying for it. That does not strike me as an effective transfer risk. I do not want to rule out shadow tolls in all circumstances - it would not be right to do so. Despite colleagues, some organisations and units being in favour of it, I have a pretty simplistic view of it because I believe one must chose whether to base it on usage.

There are other forms of public-private partnership. They need not have anything to do with tolling. The private operator could decide to undertake a project and charge the State over 20 to 50 years, as in some parts of the world, or the State could pay rent. It would depend on the relationship. It is a complex area because one size does not fit all. It can become desperately complicated. For example, I am aware that the legal documents relating to one contract in the United Kingdom involved upwards of 1,000 pages. However, we are developing the expertise. We will run with the pilot projects and see how that goes.

When will a formal definitive budget be made available for the public-private partnerships? Does the Minister intend to set aside a specific budget for public-private partnerships? Will he only respond to projects as they arise?

A specific budget would be the wrong way to look at it.

Would the Minister have a figure in mind and from where would it come?

When we complete the national development plan and in line with what I said earlier and on previous occasions about the amount of investment required, what will come from the Exchequer and what will come from Europe, there will be a considerable gap left for the private sector. One may guesstimate what the private sector is expected to contribute over the next seven years. One would not be able to state exactly what it will contribute except that there is a belief, not only held by me but by others in this area, that the private sector wants large-scale investment opportunities. We must decide on the basis of each individual project and in line with Government policy and ministerial policy in various line Departments. All that is being provided for in the Estimate is the small sum to cover the staff costs of the unit which I set up in the Department of Finance to deal with this area. Other Departments will have various people also.

Will that unit be permanent?

Will all the proposals go through that unit and then return to the Departments?

No. The proposals will be dealt with in the line Departments. The central unit in the Department of Finance is a kick-start mechanism to get this off the ground and develop the expertise. The current thinking is that the actual evaluation of proposals will be done in the line Departments, but the unit in the Department of Finance will be co-ordinating the effort. Perhaps in time we may set up a central unit just to deal with this matter. We do not know yet.

Will the Minister indicate the level of fees paid to consultants to improve the image of the Department or the Minister?

Unfortunately, I do not employ any of these people for myself, although I am sure I could do with them. Recently a parliamentary question was tabled for all Departments, or maybe specifically for the Department of Finance, which listed the contracts and the moneys to consultants in a wide variety of areas.

Does the Minister have a personal consultant?

Unfortunately, no.

The Minister is doing a good job.

I have a press officer in the Department of Finance.

Does that press officer have a consultancy firm working with him?

No, but the press officer is classified as a special adviser and will go when I go.

Will the Minister give the committee a little more information on the provision by Howard Johnson, consultant actuaries, of advice on the pension funds of Telecom Éireann and An Post?

As the Deputy will be aware, when Telecom Éireann and An Post were set up as independent commercial State bodies in 1984 the pensions of people prior to that date had to be paid. They have been paid since that date on a "pay as you go" basis, that is the State reimburses Telecom Éireann, An Post and the Irish Aviation Authority - one of two other bodies involved - as the demand arises each year.

From 1984 until the early 1990s we did not even make "pay as you go" arrangements and Members may recall that from 1991 or 1992 we began paying lump sums to the bodies in question. On the first occasion on which I served as Minister for Finance, I used Exchequer funds to pay off the entire amount due in 1997. However, the matter of prevesting day pension liabilities remains unresolved. We have asked pension experts to calculate the State's liability in that regard and to assist us in agreeing with Telecom Éireann the total amount of money owed pre-1994.

With a view to settling by way of lump sum payment?

That decision will be made in the future. An opportunity has arisen to deal with the matter in advance of the IPO of shares in Telecom Éireann. This matter has been under discussion for a long period and we will need to employ additional expertise in order to reach agreement on the figures. The Government will be obliged to make a decision regarding how it proposes to deal with this matter. We are aware that the liability exists. Estimates of that liability have been provided at various stages but now is the appropriate time to make a decision on the exact amount involved. The Government can then make a decision on how to proceed.

I have not formalised my views on how to proceed but I would like to discover the extent of the total liability. I accept that the amount of money owed is considerable.

Surely the Minister does not envisage a situation where the Exchequer will continue to owe money to what is to become a publicly floated company?

Deputy Noonan's thinking on this matter is similar to mine. The amount of money involved will certainly be in excess of £500 million and the final total may be as high as £700 million.

Would the company not accept shares in lieu of payment? With regard to the review body on higher remuneration in the public sector, it is stated that there has been an increase in funding of £25,000. Are recent reports that the Government has decided to postpone the review for 12 months accurate?

No. The review is due to begin on 1 January 2000. In 1991 when the Gleeson report was published, it was agreed that the review body would do its work every four years. Therefore, the next review took place on 1 January 1995. The Government of the day, of which Deputy Noonan was a member, asked the review body to carry out a special assignment in respect of hospital consultants. That delayed for a further year the general review for those in receipt of higher remuneration in the public sector such as judges, Deputies, Ministers and chief executives. Therefore, the Buckley report did not emerge until 1 January 1996.

The Buckley review body would have understood that while it was 12 months late in reporting, the next review should have begun on 1 January 1999. However, I announced before Christmas that the review body would report on 1 January 2000 in order to have the normal four year gap between reports. Later this year I will be reconstituting the review body so that it can proceed with its work when the its terms of reference and membership have been announced.

Is 1 January 2000 the commencement date of the review or is it the date on which the report is due?

That is the commencement date of the review. I do not believe that the body reported until March 1996 but its review was to have commenced on 1 January of that year.

With regard to superannuation and retirement allowances - Vote 7 - I note the provision is made for retirement gratuities for unestablished——

We are due to deal with that Estimate later.

Is it not correct that these Estimates all come under the remit of the Minister for Finance?

We are only dealing with Vote 6 at present, we will deal with Vote 7 later.

I apologise.

Are there any further questions on Vote 6?

With regard to subhead P dealing with the special support programme for Northern Ireland and the Border counties of Ireland, does the Minister have in his possession more comprehensive information than that which is provided? Is he in a position to explain the decrease of 29 per cent in the provision for this programme?

The programme, which came into operation in 1995, covers the following broad themes: urban and rural regeneration; employment; cross-Border development; social inclusion; productive investment; and industrial development. The amount shown under this subhead represents funding arrangements and requirements for the programme, regardless of whether the EU programmes body proceeds with its work. The funding is comprised of 75 per cent EU recuperative expenditure and a 25 per cent matching Exchequer component. A sum of £1.05 million has been transferred from this subhead to the subhead dealing with technical assistance and other costs on the special support programme for Northern Ireland and the Border counties of Ireland. Responsibility for the latter will be undertaken by the new special EU programmes body to be established under the Good Friday Agreement. The provision has increased from nil in 1998 to £1.301 million.

When the two subheads are reconciled, are we witnessing increasing activity in terms of urban and rural regeneration, employment, cross-Border development, social inclusion, productive investment and industrial development? What level of increased activity can we expect to see in respect of the Border counties?

The special EU programmes body has been established to take responsibility for further areas of activity. I assume, therefore, that the workload will increase. The specific subhead refers to technical assistance and other costs. I do not believe it necessarily reflects the level of activity which would take place under the various headings to which I referred.

Will further consultants be employed or will there be increased activity on the ground?

No. The breakdown of the £1.3 million is: staffing, £100,000; accommodation, £100,000; and the programmes - peace and INTERREG - £1.1 million. However, progress in this area is delayed by current political difficulties.

Is it contingent on the establishment of the Executive?

A token Supplementary Estimate was passed on 21 March in anticipation of expenditure being required for the North-South special EU programmes body. In addition, £1.3 million is now being provided in the amended Revised Estimate to meet the projected 1999 cost to the Exchequer of the new body. That figure has been funded by way of the transfer of £1.05 million from subhead P and £250,000 from subhead Q. Contributions North and South towards the running costs of the body will broadly be made on a 50:50 basis.

Is the Minister stating that work cannot begin until the Northern Ireland Executive has been established?

Yes. Apparently the entire process is being delayed by current difficulties in Northern Ireland. Both Prime Ministers have instituted a 30 June deadline, by which agreement is to be reached on the formation of the Executive. The Deputy will be aware of the other matters which are causing delays.

I accept that. However, I am trying to establish whether the process is being delayed as a matter of policy or because, technically, funding cannot be provided in Northern Ireland until the Executive is in place.

As a politician, I cannot tell the Deputy that. The money is not being spent currently because the bodies have not gone ahead. Hopefully, the issues involved will be resolved shortly.

Subhead 10 - payments to promoters of certain charitable lotteries - has decreased by £62,000 since last year. Why is that?

As the Deputy will recall, there was a big row years ago involving a number of lotteries which said that they suffered a loss of business as a result of the establishment of the national lottery. There was a great deal of debate about that. It was decided then that a lump sum would be provided to them for three years. Those bodies which claimed to have lost money were to send in claims for loss of business. A sum of £5 million was provided in 1997. It was provided on a proportionate basis to avoid difficulties, but a sum of £448,000 remained unspent at the end of 1997 and I carried this over into 1998 with a view to ensuring that the average spend over the two years would be £5 million per annum. Accordingly, I increased the 1998 outturn to £5,448 million and this year the figure is £5 million. The figure was agreed with the organisations involved.

Does the Minister intend to continue it?

The initial arrangement was for three years to see how it would work and we paid the money. Deputy Noonan spoke earlier about reviews of expenditure programmes and everything is up for review, but we have not had many complaints since this new mechanism came into play.

Under Vote 7, how many staff are directly employed by the Department and the agencies which report to it?

The number of staff serving on 31 December 1998 which were paid under subhead A.1 was 490. That figure represents a decrease of 7% in staff numbers since 31 December 1995. However, more than 30 approved posts were unfilled at the end of 1998. The number of staff paid under subhead A.1 on 31 December each year since 1995 is as follows: 31 December 1995 , 527; 31 December 1996, 513; 31 December 1997, 509.5; and 31 December 1998, 490. That includes 16 staff employed by the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland.

Can the Minister indicate whether key staff are continually lost to the private sector?

There is the normal process of people coming to and going from the Civil Service. I cannot recall in the past year whether we lost any key staff, but there is ongoing movement of people into and out of the service. Some Departments have great difficulty filling positions in the lower grades of the Civil Service because the private sector offers salaries in excess of those offered by the public service. It is well to recognise that. People who usually work their way up to the higher grades are more committed to a career path in the Civil Service. People in all Departments receive very attractive offers which they cannot refuse.

I asked some questions about the Office of the Revenue Commissioners in my opening statement.

The Deputy referred to recent reports which said that the Revenue was looking for extra staff. The Deputy would not have seen any report on the Revenue Commissioners which made that case but he possibly saw reports from some unions making the case that staff were missing in certain areas.

It was in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Revenue.

Any request made by the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners regarding staff is carefully evaluated. In recent weeks the Deputy will have noticed advertisements in the national newspapers recruiting specialists in a wide variety of areas, for example, to take account of special investigations etc. I approved the appointment of 37 additional staff recently, comprising five accountants, ten higher grade inspectors, ten higher tax officers, ten tax officer-clerical officers and two third assistant secretaries.

How many people are employed by the Revenue Commissioners?

Approximately 6,000.

What is the trend in staffing numbers?

The staff serving figure is 5,958. The authorised staffing figure is 6,079 and there are 121 vacancies. The average number of staff in 1998 was 5,975 and the equivalent number from 1 January to 31 May 1999 was 5,939. There are 803 job sharers and 236 people are on career break. The number of disabled staff is 145 and the gender balance is 2,949.5 males and 3,023.5 females. There are 85 people on secondment of which 11 are paid by the Revenue.

Where are they located?

I do not have that information with me but I will provide it to the Deputy.

I thank the Revenue Commissioners for issuing the statement of practice on the new powers and circulating it widely among the profession and the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Deputy will take credit for it.

It was straightforward and clearcut. Have the powers been used yet and, if so, to what degree have they been used?

I am not aware of that matter because it is not relevant to the Minister for Finance. My officials are not aware of it having been used. It is planned to put the procedures in place but my officials cannot tell me whether they are being used currently.

The Minister indicated that there was movement to integrate tax statements if one has liabilities under different headings whereby all the information could be printed on one statement. Will the Minister outline that process?

That activity has been ongoing for some time. I recall a number of years ago, probably at this committee, being informed that the Revenue was working towards an integrated package.

Will the Minister use an example to illustrate this process, such as a publican in a small village?

This has been developed over the years and the Revenue has upgraded its systems many times. Eight or nine years ago one had a VAT number, PAYE number and corporation number, and directors also had individual tax numbers. In recent years a unique number has been used. The idea is that rather than receiving separate bills for VAT, PAYE, corporation tax and individual directors, as a result of computerisation people will receive one statement showing PAYE employer liability, VAT liability, what has been paid in, what is owed etc. The focus will be on one customer.

While the Minister did not decide on principle to integrate revenue and social welfare, is it true that a common number will be used in future for everyone over 16 years and that at a minimum he is not doing anything which would work adversely against that kind of move in the development of the Department's IT and software?

Long before I was Minister for Finance, Revenue and the then Department of Social Welfare decided - I think the decision was taken when I was Minister for Social Welfare - to use the unique number. When Deputy Noonan's children are around 14 years they will receive a card from the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs showing their RSI - revenue and social insurance - number which is to be used throughout their lives. I tried to extend that further when I was Minister for Social Welfare but I ran into difficulties with the data protection commissioner about the use of such numbers. However, I think those matters have been resolved. Therefore, in time, one's unique RSI number will be one's passport in other areas.

It would be desirable if the same number could be used in transactions with the State, for example, as regards higher education and other grants. Some of the liberty lobbies would say this is a "big brother" approach. However, the most liberal country in the world is probably the United States which does not have difficulty with conducting their affairs in this manner. Such a number is used for all types of transactions, including bank accounts etc.

In Denmark there is a central payments board where one gets one's RSI numbers, rather like the way one gets a credit card, and one can use it in cash machines to draw down social welfare payments, pensions, state salaries etc. The numbers are fed in centrally.

In 1992 I thought I was working towards that and there were plans to integrate it with the tax system. People would have been able to collect their welfare payments through that system. The Department has moved ahead in that regard and is working on a pilot project. It is now 1999 and I had hoped it would be in operation by 1994. The system is in operation in other countries. In a few years, this is the way things should be done. With the technology and computerisation we have now, we have no excuse for not doing it. Technology has developed exponentially so it will happen in time and I, for one, will welcome it.

We previously discussed appeals commissioners in Revenue and I suggested that an additional appeals commissioner with a public sector or Revenue background should be appointed, to which the Minister seemed to react favourably. Is the Minister doing anything about this?

In recent years there have been three appeals commissioners and one was always from the background of which the Deputy spoke. A number of years ago there were four appeals commissioners and they were usually appointed by way of a confined competition. Advertisements were placed in the Law Library, the courts etc. and people would apply. With the change in the appeals mechanism some years ago the number of appeals have dropped substantially from thousands per week to 500 or 1,000 in a year, which I recall from answering parliamentary questions. There was not a third appeals commissioner in recent years because the demand was not there. If I appoint a third appeals commissioner, I will take the approach suggested by the Deputy, which would be the correct one.

Under subhead A7 there is a figure of £2.887 million for consultancies undertaken by the Revenue Commissioners? What consultancies are these and what work can they not do themselves?

The Revenue Commissioners have employed consultants for as long as I have been a TD. Most consultancies relate to computerisation and IT. In 1998 the cost of IT consultancy services was £3.18 million and other consultancies cost £178,000, making a total of £3.358 million. The cost in the 1999 Estimates is £2.6 million for IT consultancy services and £287,000 for others, making a total of £2.887 million.

The Comptroller and Auditor General is carrying out an inquiry into whether certain DIRT liabilities were paid or written off in respect of the main clearing banks. I understand a London based consultant is assisting him. Is that included in his Vote or do the Revenue Commissioners also have a consultant in that regard?

No, it is included in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Vote. A large UK accountancy group has been taken on although it has offices here. I put forward a Supplementary Estimate of £1 million to cover the consultant to the Comptroller and Auditor General. I can give the Deputy the breakdown of the figure if he wishes.

No, that is all right.

The cost of the consultancy is covered in the Comptroller and Auditor General's vote, not that of the Revenue Commissioners.

What is the recruitment policy of the Revenue Commissioners? Is it primarily recruiting from leaving certificate level or is it recruiting graduates or qualified accountants?

I recently authorised 37 additional staff most of whom were for specialist grades. As regards normal recruitment policy, mostly leaving certificate students are recruited and some graduates for EO level.

Are accountants employed or do Revenue staff have accountancy skills?

Of the positions we recently authorised, five are accountants who were recruited externally on five year contracts, which is the first time we have done that. The Revenue Commissioners have inspectors with accountancy qualifications which they attained in their own time.

What is the staff turnover in the Revenue Commissioners? Is it significant?

As in other Departments, it is significant in the IT area. People gain expertise in the tax area in the Revenue Commissioners and then make good incomes in accountancy practices. That has always been the case.

Are many gamekeepers becoming poachers?

The Chairman is right. This is the first time. I saw the advertisements in the newspapers for experienced accountants with knowledge of the other side of the game, so to speak.

The Minister referred to 121 vacancies in the Revenue. Are there any plans to fill those?

There are always additional posts to be filled and I do not think the figure is any higher than it would normally be out of a complement of 6,000. They are finding it as difficult as other Departments to fill clerical vacancies.

Are there plans to advertise additional vacancies based on that number?

The Revenue is taking on staff all the time. They need specialised staff for some vacancies, while other grades can go through the normal process of recruitment.

Is there a full complement of disabled staff in service at the moment?

I do not think there is a full complement but there is an agreement that Departments should have a certain percentage of disabled staff. I think the figure is 3%. We have 145, and 3% of 6,000 is 180 so we are under the figure, though we are close to it. We are better than some other agencies.

Talking about poachers turned gamekeepers, subhead A10 refers to an increase in the number of engagements of external solicitors and sheriffs to enforce the collection of outstanding taxes. Is this becoming more difficult or is there more to collect?

This subhead also covers the expense incurred by or on behalf of the Revenue's solicitor's office or awards in relation to the detection of evasion. The subhead refers to the engagement of external solicitors or sheriffs to enforce the collection of outstanding taxes. It also covers legal expenses incurred by or on behalf of the Revenue's solicitor's office and rewards involved in the detection of evasion. An increase of 23 per cent is to cover the new remuneration package for sheriffs introduced on 1 November 1998. The revised operational guidelines coincide with the changes in sheriff remuneration and include a provision whereby all interest earned on taxes collected will be paid over to the Exchequer. Under the old remuneration system, the interest on taxes collected by sheriffs was lodged in their accounts and certain revenue was retained by them as part of their remuneration.

Subhead 11 refers to compensation payments. What claims are being made?

This relates to accidents which staff have on the premises and claims lodged by taxpayers who have been injured on the premises.

Are the premises particularly dangerous?

Not necessarily so. Perhaps this just reflects the times in which we live.

Are people in a state of shock after leaving the office?

The Revenue Commissioners are so friendly that that does not happen anymore.

Deputy Stanton raised the matter of the fees and rewards covered by subhead 10 and there is a 28% increase here. The Minister referred to the interest being paid to the Exchequer, but is the interest that the sheriffs used to earn reflected in the appropriations-in-aid to the Department in terms of an increased payment?

No. It comes under a tax heading.

I thought it might have come in there.

The Minister mentioned rewards. How does a person get a reward? How much of the £2.5 million is taken up by rewards?

That information is simply not available to me. I do not know if the Revenue Commissioners, even in these days of freedom of information, have ever published statistics in this regard. I doubt they have. They do not like to say much about it.

I do not know if it is the same in Laois, but it used to be said in Kildare that a person was a declared millionaire years ago when one had to declare oneself a millionaire. In reality there is no such provision. I always believed that the taxation authorities paying bounties to people was another myth until I recently read in a newspaper that they do so. That was news to me. Now that Deputy Fleming has raised this issue it gives me an opportunity to raise some questions of my own with them. The reward is related to the tax recovered and is only made if asked for.

So they have to request a reward. That is fair enough. That is more than I knew about it.

It is more than I knew about it.

While I appreciate there has been some success in recent years, there is still a lot of anger from ordinary PAYE workers at the amount of uncollected tax still outstanding. What progress has been made in the area of pursuing these utter cheats? Are we providing enough staff to ensure that these people are caught and made accountable?

Deputy Ryan will have heard me express my opinion before on this matter but I will express it again. The change in the collection system of the Revenue in the past ten to 12 years has been enormous, to judge from my political and business experience. Given the way it operated in the 1970s and 1980s, I do not know how the system did not fall down totally. I have said on many occasions that when treatises are written about the Celtic tiger, a footnote, if not an entire chapter, will have to be devoted to one of the reasons for its success which was the change in the outlook of the Revenue and its success in collecting taxes. Luckily, I said this long before I became Minister for Finance or people would be saying I am now saying so to praise my own staff. Anyone in the accountancy business would say the same thing. The change since I was first an articled clerk 30 years ago has been remarkable and that has occurred in the past 12 years. That is why I felt that in the past 18 months the Revenue Commissioners have come in for some undue and unfair criticism. They have changed the whole collection system and made more people compliant, and that is extraordinary. Some of the criticism from politicians and other public figures, who should know better, has been very ill-informed.

There are two different aspects to this matter. One is dealt with regularly by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the second is the matter of evasion. The Comptroller and Auditor General publishes a list of the total amount of money that is estimated as not collected. That used to give the newspapers headlines once a year until quite recently, as the figure used to be approximately £2 billion. However, most of that figure relates to estimated assessments going back years. In the past few years the Revenue has agreed with the Comptroller and Auditor General as to how that figure can be scaled down and written off. Most of it was never due in the first place so we are now getting more realistic figures.

Regarding evasion, one cannot estimate with certainty the level of the black economy. There will always be a level of tax evasion. My opinion and that of many others is that the level of tax evasion in the past number of years is much lower than in the 1970s and 1980s. Unquestionably, there will be high levels of evasion when there are high nominal rates of taxation, as existed in the 1970s and 1980s and which reached up to 77 per cent when Deputy Seán Ryan's party was in Government. There were high levels of evasion. Much of the monies floating around and being discussed in various inquiries at present relate to taxation issues as much as anything else. We will never be able to stamp out evasion completely, but the Revenue Commissioners have had considerable success in recent years.

One of the reasons people have been getting their taxes in order in recent years is the manner in which the Revenue Commissioners have conducted their business. The interest amnesty of the late 1980s gave people an opportunity to bring their tax affairs up to date without having to pay interest. Before that there was a nonsensical system whereby interest was calculated on a monthly basis so that payments made by a person who owed, for example, £25,000 in PAYE, were put against the interest, resulting in such a person never coming up to date. In the amnesty people took the opportunity to come up to date. Consequently, the Revenue Commissioners got on top of the work and brought in new systems. The people in the Revenue Commissioners who carry out audits have a very pragmatic approach to dealing with people's affairs and bringing people up to date, something which has benefited everybody.

A recent train of thought is that the Revenue Commissioners should sit on their high horses and adopt a principled approach by telling a person who owes, for example, £4,851 that they will accept nothing less. The person might be going broke and have only £3,552 and one view is that Revenue should not accept that amount but set a process in motion and get dirty, so to speak. In my experience over the years Revenue has adopted a pragmatic approach and has brought people up to date and kept them on the straight and narrow. In my view this has worked very well and I would hate to think that, recent events and the pillorying received by the Revenue Commissioners notwithstanding, this pragmatic and business like approach, which has brought people's tax affairs up to date, would be lost.

We will never know the total amount of tax evaded, but it is much less than it was ten years ago.

I think the evidence is slightly against the Minister. The level of random audits being undertaken is quite small. Focused audits are undertaken where the Revenue suspects somebody is not correctly self-assessing. However, the percentage of random audits is very small. Unless the rate of random audits is increased, I do not think the system of self-assessment will work fully. The percentage of random audits carried out here is much lower than that carried out by Internal Revenue Service in the US.

The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Revenue Commissioners shows that one in three of those randomly audited were found to have underestimated their liability and underpaid their taxes. The underestimation was of the order of about 20 per cent. Therefore, evidence exists suggesting widespread evasion still exists and until the level of random audits is increased it will continue.

I can send the Deputy the relevant briefing note, but in answer to a parliamentary question some months ago I set out the amounts of money collected in the random and focused audits over the years. To the best of my recollection the figures proved the opposite and that the Revenue Commissioners were getting more money through the focused audit approach. I accept that the self-assessment system has been improved and in a few years there will be more random audits, as in the US.

It stands to reason that focused audits on people suspected of evading tax will result in the collection of more money than random audits on compliant taxpayers. However, it is not a case of one or the other - both types of audits should be carried out.

Figures for the random and targeted audit programmes between 1996 and 1998 show that the average random audit settlement in 1998 was £959, whereas the average targeted audit settlement was £18,769.

That is absolutely self-evident. If suspected evaders are pursued and caught, it will be found that they owe a lot of tax. On the other hand, random audits will result in auditing totally compliant people much of the time. A high level of random audits will result in people being afraid to chance evading tax. There will not be full compliance if there is not a fear of random audits. It should not be a question of either one or the other.

I suppose one can make the case either way and use statistics in doing so. I accept that the random audit procedure means people do not know when they will be investigated and, therefore, it encourages them to comply. Statistics show that the amount of money collected through random audits is much less than that collected through focused audits.

I was asked if more staff could be devoted to carrying out random audits. More staff are being provided to the Revenue Commissioners, but surely it makes sense that they be employed on focused audits rather than random audits given the average settlement in the latter is only a pittance compared to that raised by targeted audits. I accept that a balance is necessary.

The Minister is correct if the purpose of the exercise is to collect outstanding taxes. However, if the purpose is to ensure that the bulk of taxpayers are compliant then the random audit is much better.

Yes, I accept it must be part of the process.

What percentage of self-assessment taxpayers had a random audit undertaken last year?

Recently I answered a parliamentary question giving the number of random audits in the past number of years. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General also contains the figure.

I am looking for the percentage of self-assessing taxpayers who were audited on a random basis.

I will get those figures for the Deputy. Earlier the Deputy asked a question about the audit power in relation to the operation of DIRT and whether the power has ever been used. The power has been used a number of times.

My question concerned the additional powers in the Finance Act and whether they have been used.

We will now move to questions on Vote 7.

I wish to raise pensions and retirement gratuities for established and non-established civil servants. Are such people in receipt of their full entitlements under the PCW agreement?

Pensions in the Civil Service relate to the grade on retirement and the current salary at that grade. Therefore, if the grade received an increase under the PCW, pensioners from that grade automatically received the increase. The PCW resulted in complications in terms of pensions because of re-grading, etc. In some cases if a strict interpretation was applied, some pension groups would have received no increase. Therefore, in November 1997 I decided to introduce a floor of 3 per cent. A number of proposals were advanced by various people but that was the one most favoured by the public service committee of the ICTU which welcomed it at the time.

A number of parliamentary questions have been tabled on this issue during the past year and I have received a number of representations from pensioners' groups. The basic problem relates to the fact that a small group of pensioners want the personal long service increments, awarded to certain cohorts of serving staff, to be applied to them. It has been a core element of pensions parity policy that only permanent pay scale changes are passed on to pensioners. A small group of pensioners have argued this point about which I have issued almost 100 letters in the past six months to TDs and Senators who made representations on their behalf. It is not possible to change the current situation.

My understanding was that the commitment entered into by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste prior to the general election, in relation to resolving outstanding problems surrounding retired public servants' pensions, would result in the restoration of the link between pensions and increases in current public service pay rates.

I did that; that is pensions parity.

There is a strong feeling among a substantial number of public service pensioners that the commitment was not fulfilled.

I have tried to explain the matter. The pensioners concerned are of the opinion that they are entitled to personal long service increments or other allowances awarded to current grades of public service staff. That is not possible. Prior to the election, Fianna Fáil stated it would honour the question of pensions parity. Deputy Noonan will recall that a decision was not made on the issue by the previous Government as the matter was very complicated.

There was a commitment to honour the principle of pensions parity but the means of doing that had not been decided upon.

The previous Government gave a commitment to honour pensions parity but it was difficult to find a way in which that could be achieved. The PCW introduced changes in staff grades and it had to be decided how those changes would be dealt with. Some groups - such as teachers or gardaí - opted to trade off improved pension arrangements and allowances against normal wage increases. Prior to the PCW, changes were applied across the board and pensions were based on people's points on the incremental scale.

When I became Minister for Finance, I wrote to Professor McAleese, chairman of the public services pensions commission set up by my predecessor, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to ask him to consider the issue of public service pensions and offer a view on how parity could be achieved. He was unable to do that; he provided me with the commission's interim report and the final report will be available later this year.

Lengthy negotiations on the matter - initiated under the previous Government - were held with the ICTU's public service committee. I finally came down in favour of offering parity through the application of a 3 per cent floor. That has worked very well although a small group of pensioners still want the personal long-service increments, which are applied to certain grades on a particular basis, to be applied to them. The entire purpose of the PCW in this area was to rationalise certain grades and develop agreements on productivity changes. I am not in a position to extend those changes to the pensioners concerned; that has not ever been done in the history of the State. We have honoured the commitment to pensions parity. The trade unions recognised and applauded that.

During the recent elections campaign, I received a great deal of correspondence from pensioners, particularly those in health board areas, who were informed that the agreement entered into two years' ago regarding pensions was a once-off arrangement and that they would not receive the full entitlement to further pension increases. They understood, as I did, that the arrangement entered into by the Minister and the ICTU would be ongoing. Will the Minister confirm whether it is ongoing?

Yes, it is meant to be ongoing. However, difficulties were experienced in regard to pensioners in health board areas because some grades had been scrapped and others had been changed. It took some time to work that out.

What about the productivity element of the PCW? Will that be passed on?

The Deputy has hit the nail on the head. If a grade or group of workers now agree on changes in their work practices and trade some of those off for additional money or whatever, those changes only apply to them.

Will the Minister pass them on?

No, neither has the ICTU.

The Minister paid that off two years' ago.

Current staff grades have made changes to their work practices and are entitled to any benefits which may accrue from that. If I had strictly adhered to the rules of pensions parity, the pensioners concerned might not have received any increases at all. That is why I applied the 3 per cent floor.

As far as I am concerned, this is backpedalling and this is a scandalous situation. We are talking about public service pensioners who are not in receipt of social welfare pensions and are solely entitled to pensions based on their staff grades. It is disgraceful that the Minister is pulling back on commitments which were given.

I am not. The ICTU recognises that. If a grade had been abolished or changed in some other way, a mechanism had to be found to decide on the level of increases given to people who formerly worked in those grades. The solution arrived at, welcomed by all but a very small group, was the most equitable and cost the State a considerable amount of money. I imposed the 3 per cent floor which means that, in future, people will receive their normal increases on an ongoing basis. Having due consideration for future costs in this area, we cannot introduce a new element into pensions policy which has never existed in the past. Small groups of pensioners are exerting pressure in this regard but I am not in a position to change matters.

There is merit in Deputy Ryan's argument. The Minister is pulling back too far. There are certain principles which the Minister cannot breach.

It surprised many people, including the unions, that I imposed the 3 per cent floor.

I am aware of the history of the difficulties in this area and the manner in which they were negotiated on by the Department and the public services committee of the ICTU. The fundamental difficulty we see in it is that public services pensions work on 80ths and a full pension is expected to be 40/80ths. Public service pensioners always expected the maximum pension to be half the salary. A retired principal officer would look at the latest principal officer's pay increase and expect to get half that salary as his full pension. Once we move to a productivity basis, a retired public servant will expect to receive half his salary on retirement but to progressively lose out year after year. The movement in pay negotiations, even in the public service, is towards productivity and flexibility. The Minister will have to re-negotiate again in the autumn and it will be one of his main planks as he tries to get modernised practices and increased productivity and flexibility.

It is very serious for retired public servants such as nurses, teachers, gardaí, local authority workers, health board workers and civil servants if there is an expectation that they will not receive half and that in five years' time instead of getting 40/80ths, they will get 35/80ths. They are fighting it on principle. The floor is not sufficient.

Deputy Noonan knows the floor must go with the problem at that time. The two areas of difficulty relate to personal long service increments and allowances which were made pensionable for the first time under the PCW.

That is the problem now.

They are the problems and Deputy Ryan——

The Minister created a bigger problem in his reply when he said he will not concede elements of pay agreements which are based on productivity in the future for pension purposes.

The Minister said that and has created a very serious problem.

The Minister said that.

If I did create that question, I did not mean to do so. I meant to say this area has been thrashed out time and again and we came to an equitable solution in 1997 which has worked and was agreed by all interest groups. However, some people are still protesting. The people who are writing to me and other Members are complaining about personal long service increments.

This is not the minority, it is the majority of pensioners.

It is not.

They have been informed by their local authorities——

There are two areas, the personal long service increments and the question of allowances being made pensionable for the first time. The main area of dispute has been the long service increments. This issue was taken up by the National Association of Retired Public Service Employees, formerly known as the Public Service Pensions Action Group. They contend the long service increment should be passed on to pensioners. A core element of pensions parity policy is that only permanent changes in pay scales are passed on to pensioners.

The other main area of difficulty is the pensionability of allowances. A number of the PCW restructuring deals made allowances pensionable for serving officers for specified deeds, for example, a garda on unsociable hours allowance. Some pensioners, including the National Association of Retired Public Service Employees, take the view that the 1997 decision meant allowances being made pensionable ought to be passed on to pensioners who have already retired. However, long before the PCW restructuring pay deals, a core element of pensions parity policy was that even when allowances were made pensionable for serving officers, it did not apply to pensioners. The 1997 decisions referred to earlier did not change this policy in any way.

Officials from my Department have met the Retired Civil and Public Servants Association and the National Association of Retired Public Service Employees on a number of occasions and explained the parity policy which I have outlined. Nevertheless they continue to pursue this.

The Minister is correct in his description of the historical background. A minority continued to lobby for allowances and once-off increments to be included. It has now moved on from there because they have been advised by their unions that the Minister and his officials see this simply as a solution for difficulties which arose from the PCW and that the parity principle as the Minister described it will not continue in future wage negotiations. The parity principle will be breached - as the Minister stated - if elements of pay increases in core pay are applicable to productivity as they will not be included for pension purposes. That affects not the minority but the generality of members. That is the belief and the Minister should correct it. If it is not the position the Minister should issue a statement.

Professor McAleese, in his final report which I expect later this year, will address how to handle the problems to which Deputy Noonan referred. I expect his report to deal adequately with it. The area must be addressed. The McAleese commission will put forward proposals in this regard and then we can deal with it in the context of the next national agreement as suggested by the Deputy. I readily recognise this could be a bone of contention but the McAleese commission will deal with the question of public service pensions, including this aspect. His solutions or proposals will be considered. In any event, the area can be discussed in the context of the next agreement, as in the last one.

To resolve this and to allay the fears of the vast majority of public service pensioners, I want the Minister to confirm that the position outlined in letters from their employers and unions, which clearly state that the agreement reached in relation to the majority two years ago with the Department will not be implemented in the next agreement, is not the case.

I was not aware of any such letters but now the Deputy has told me I will have them investigated. I was not aware any trade union had issued such letters.

Employers——

I have not seen any such letters.

I will send the Minister one.

Are there any other questions?

On Vote 7, there is a historical curiosity which is a bit sad in its own way and has a resonance of what may happen in Northern Ireland before long. Subhead E concerns compensation allowances for civil servants who retired under Article 10 of the Treaty of 6 December 1921. Subhead H deals with pensions to resigned and dismissed Royal Irish Constabulary, including widows. The footnote suggests there are only two beneficiaries remaining in each case. Are they resident in the State? Does the Minister have a longer note on that?

I do not have a longer note on that. There are now only two beneficiaries in each case.

It is a long time since 1921.

In relation to article 10 compensation allowances, one person is resident in County Dublin and one is resident in County Down. In relation to the RIC pensions, one person is resident in County Sligo and the other in County Cork. They latter two are widows.

Are the first two very old retired civil servants?

They are quite old. I cannot identify them. One person will be nearly 100 years old and the other person's date of birth is unknown. They are roughly about the same age.

Long may they enjoy it.

One is a widow and the other was retired from the Dublin Metropolitan Police in 1923 under the Anglo-Irish Treaty provisions and was awarded a pension at that time. We reckon that person is about 100 years old as well.

Regarding Vote 11 - State Laboratory, is there much out-sourcing of testing now or is it all done internally? If it is out-sourced who does the testing? For example, are drunk driving tests out-sourced?

We will have to get that information for the Deputy.

On Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey, to what degree are the services of the Ordnance Survey being placed on the Internet? Is it putting up web sites of the different localities around the country where we can draw down maps?

I attended a good presentation with An Post. The Ordnance Survey has the most modern web machinery available and intends to sell to the private sector. The Ordnance Survey has a web site off the main Government web page and recently put out to tender for a communications strategy which will adress the issues we have been speaking about.

Would it be possible to put up a map of the locality on the computer screen and to download and print it?

That can be bought from the Ordnance Survey for a certain fee. It has such modern technology now that it will soon be possible to include personal letters to specific constituents at specific addresses as part of these advances. The Ordnance Survey needs to make money, hence the fee in question. It is amazing that in the Ordnance Survey Office one can call up a map of one's locality on computer, choose the relevant estate, and find very significant details of one's house.

A baby sleeping in a cot?

Not yet, but shortly.

Regarding Votes 15, 16 and 17, there is a recorded 51 per cent increase on the expenditure for the valuation tribunal and yet the fees to counsel and other legal expenses are down 41 per cent. The appropriations-in-aid are down 25 per cent. That would indicate to me that fewer fees are being received in respect of appeals which points to a significant reduction in levels of activity by the Valuation Office. Could the Minister comment on that?

The main source of income derives from revision fees and appeal fees. It is estimated that the Valuation Office has made approximately £820,000 from this income source in 1999. The Estimate for 1999 has been reduced to take account of the estimated reduction in revision and appeal listings in 1999.

Why is there such a reduction in the number of appeals? Is it that, due to the tiger economy, people are happy to pay the higher valuation which has been given to them without contesting it, perhaps?

It is possible that this is the reason, though I doubt it.

Yet in the valuations tribunal there is a significant 51 per cent increase in expenditure.

They are IT costs.

Regarding the Civil Service Commission and the number of people who are processed through the Local Appointments Commission; £5.8 million is the figure mentioned in the Estimates but I would like to know the average recruitment cost. There are also many criticisms levelled at the delay encountered in the system and it would be better were these local appointments dealt with directly by the local authorities rather than through the centralised system.

This involves major policy issues. Is the Deputy advocating that the appointments be made locally?

Certain grades should be appointed at local level to remove the backlog in the system.

I am not sure I agree with the Deputy. People have the utmost faith in the operation of the present system and I doubt whether I would like to revert——

Take the political dimension——

——to a previous system.

When there is to be an appointment for a key phase, be it engineering or planning, it goes through the system, taking months, and eventually someone who has applied for a position elsewhere is offered a position. That applicant may have accepted a position with another local authority, and there will be a delay of another six months. That kind of scenario is causing some of the planning difficulties and delays we are experiencing.

Is the Deputy suggesting it be changed?

It should be examined. It is too centralised and that makes it too slow.

The final question relates to the Ombudsman's Office and I can speak with experience on this issue. The Ombudsman's Office should be given a bigger case-load allocation. Last year, outside Dublin, the Ombudsman opened visiting offices in the major cities of Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway, and, on request by the Citizen's Information Centre, in Portlaoise. He had about four times the normal level of valid complaints from County Laois because of his presence there on a monthly basis. If that service was made available in more counties, far more issues would be dealt with. Portlaoise was a test case and it proves the demand is there if the Ombudsman's Office had the resources to meet it in other counties. A monthly clinic in all county towns is all that would be necessary.

I did not know the Ombudsman was canvassing at the moment.

On request from the Citizen's Information Centre in Portlaoise.

I am sure he will not have any shortage of work. As TDs such as ourselves know, if we look for complaints we will surely get them. I am delighted that the Ombudsman is out looking for business. He will not be disappointed with the number of complaints from the people, anyway.

There is a great deal of concern among academic researchers about charges imposed by the Ordnance Survey for maps and information. In relation to access to and charges on Ordnance Survey material, will the Minister examine the position of academic researchers conducting detailed and meticulous research into Ordnance Survey maps dating back over several centuries? There should be some allowance or concession made for these people, and I am aware that they have difficulty with access and with charges.

I will pass the Deputy's concerns and comments on to the Ordnance Survey Office but I should point out at this stage that my predecessor established a group to examine the Ordnance Survey Office with a view to improving its work methods. It reported to me and my predecessor was of the opinion that the office should have a more commercial focus. I will bring a proposal before Government very shortly as to how to do this. On foot of the report, Deputy Quinn asked a number of people to have a look at the area and they will report to me, but it will have to have an increasing commercial focus. The greater point that the Deputy makes regarding research undertaken by academics is important and I will bring that to the attention of the office.

There is as much valuable historical information in the Ordnance Survey Office as in the National Library. Many academics have low budgets and are at a financial disadvantage in carrying out research. If transactions are conducted on a commercial basis the office will try to make its profit from whatever sources it can.

With regard to Vote 8 of the Comptroller and Auditor General and in the context of the 300 public sector financial accounts in his remit, is the Minister satisfied those accounts follow the normal procedure, are up to date and meet the required guidelines? Are they under inspection at present?

Is all of Ireland included with Kerry south audits each year in these bodies? The annual accounts are presented every year to the Comptroller and Auditor General and he audits them.

So the Minister is satisfied everything is in order.

The Comptroller and Auditor General would not say that. I am sure no auditor could say, after doing an audit in an organisation, that everything is in order. Deputies Michael Ahern, Fleming and I are practised in that profession. As in the case of all audits, the Comptroller and Auditor General carries out tests and adheres to a list of auditing procedures.

How comprehensive are they?

He carries out his tests to the highest possible standards and has an outstanding record in his area of expertise. His staff is of a high quality.

With regard to Vote 45 and the year 2000 expenditure, the Minister says this is a contingency provision, which I welcome. Will he comment on the year 2000 phenomenon and its impact on the economy given that the Small Firms Association maintains small companies are not prepared for it? Last week Heathrow Airport shut down over a year 2000 related incident and the power was cut. Is the economy prepared for this?

This provision relates to a contingency fund I announced in the budget that was put aside to deal with problems that might arise in the public service. Each Department makes provisions to deal with IT problems. It is prudent to set aside money which some Departments may have to use in the coming months.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. I welcome Deputy Cullen to discuss Votes 10 and 44.

I will introduce the 1999 Estimates for the Office of Public Works. Before dealing with the main heads of expenditure in the Estimates I will refer to current developments in the Office of Public Works.

Following the publication of the office's statement of strategy in July 1998, our objective is to adapt commercial private sector approaches and procedures to the operations of the office, to enhance customer service, to provide a clearer focus on outputs and value for money and to identify possible new areas of business activity. I am committed to ensuring the Office of Public Works will apply more commercial principles to its activities. In comparing our operations with best practice elsewhere, we are involved in benchmarking the preparation of commercial accounts and the pursuit of ISO accreditation.

The remit of the Office of Public Works is to act as the Government's principal agent for the provision and maintenance of buildings required by the State. Accommodation requirements are met through an integrated programme of building, refurbishing, purchasing or renting premises. It manages the State portfolio of approximately 1,021,900 square metres -11 million square feet - of which approximately 23 per cent - 2.5 million square feet - is leased. It provides a range of engineering services, in particular for the design and execution of local flood relief schemes. Its engineering services are responsible for the maintenance of completed arterial drainage schemes. It provides, through the Government Supplies Agency, a central procurement function for Government on certain supplies and services and it manages the Dublin Castle complex, including the conference centre. With regard to the main areas of expenditure proposed for Vote 10, the total amount sought is £146,643,000. A sum of £116,338 million is sought for the accommodation programme. At £60.65 million, the building programme is the largest element of the accommodation programme.

Major projects being undertaken this year include expenditure of £6 million on the Garda building programme, including the provision of new stations at Clondalkin and Cobh and major redevelopment at Mayorstone, Rathmines and Loughrea Garda stations. An amount of £7 million is allocated for the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs in respect of local offices countrywide. These include Tralee, Mullingar, Carlow, Clifden and Carrick-on-Shannon which will all be completed this year. Work will commence in 1999 on those in Cahirciveen, Longford, Sligo and Clondalkin. There will be expenditure of approximately £12 million on cultural institutions, including refurbishment of the National College of Art and Design building for use by the National Library and works on the deputy master's house at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, the Irish Museum of Modern Art and the National Museum at Collins Barracks. The development for the Houses of the Oireachtas will require £10 million this year.

We will continue in 1999 with the disabled access programme with expenditure of £1.5 million. This includes the upgrading of access for the disabled at a number of offices of the Revenue Commissioners at Hainault House, for offices of the Department of Foreign Affairs at St. Stephens Green and at 23-28 Kildare Street for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Within the overall accommodation an amount of £36.6 million is sought for rent and rates. There has been a significant increase in property prices in response to the general economic buoyancy. Increases following a rent review on Dublin properties are 10 per cent to 11 per cent per annum. Provincial rents are increasing in line with Dublin rents. In view of increasing rental costs it is necessary to monitor expenditure in this area. The Office of Public Works rental payments for Dublin accommodation is consistently below the average rate per square foot paid by the non-State sector. We seek to maintain a balance between owned and rented accommodation as rented accommodation gives a flexibility to respond quickly to requirements of a short-term nature. I would mention in this context, however, that we are reinstituting a Dublin office building programme to meet major requirements that will arise over the next few years. An example of this is the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands headquarters, for which an international design competition is currently under way.

The second programme, in terms of financial importance, is drainage and engineering works for which £13.788 million is sought. The programme comprises arterial drainage maintenance and the various flood relief schemes. A sum of £7.129 million is being sought for arterial drainage maintenance. The Office of Public Works has commissioned a major external expert study measuring the return on investment in the arterial drainage maintenance programme and to recommend ways of increasing this value.

The report by PriceWaterhouseCoopers in conjunction with engineering consultants Ferguson McIldeen is now complete and I am delighted to report that its conclusions are very positive indeed. The report finds that the incremental benefits from the arterial drainage maintenance service are £946 million over a 50 year period. This produces a cost-to-benefit ratio of one to 14. The Office of Public Works is now preparing a plan to implement the main recommendations of the consultants' reports.

The major element of the engineering programme in terms of cost is the flood relief programme. The position with regard to local flood relief schemes is that works are completed at the Nanny River, Duleek, certified drainage scheme in County Meath, and the Mulkear River, BallyMcKeogh, certified drainage schemes in Counties Tipperary and Limerick. Construction works on the Mulkear River in Cappaghmore certified drainage scheme in County Limerick commenced in 1998 and are expected to continue throughout 1999 and into late 2000. The detailed design of a scheme for Carrick-on-Suir, County Tipperary was completed in 1998 and publicly exhibited in December 1998-January 1999. The public observations received are under consideration at present with a view to determining the feasibility of an agreed scheme. It is envisaged that, all going well, a scheme might be forwarded to the Minister for Finance for confirmation during the summer.

Consultants were commissioned following EU procurement procedures to take the proposed flood scheme for Clonmel, County Tipperary, to detailed design and public exhibition stages. It is envisaged that detailed design options for the Clonmel scheme should be completed shortly on which Tipperary County Council and Clonmel Corporation have agreed to seek the views of the public as soon as possible with a view to bringing an agreed scheme to public exhibition stage later in the summer. The design of a scheme for Kilkenny is being undertaken by the Office of Public Works design section with support from a firm of consulting engineers. The detailed design of a scheme for Kilkenny is completed and has been submitted to the Minister for Finance for the necessary approval to publicly exhibit the scheme documentation. It is planned to bring the scheme to public exhibition before the end of June.

As the proposed engineering options for a scheme for Carlow town are proving to be very expensive, a firm of specialist consultants are currently undertaking a value engineering assessment of the scheme options for the area and any options which have a positive cost benefit ratio will be communicated to Carlow Urban and County Council for its agreement.

In relation to Vote 10, the administration costs of the Office of Public Works are expected to be £20.25 million, which is 12.9 per cent of the total Vote.

Let me briefly refer to Vote 44, Flood Relief. As a once-off measure and in recognition of the devastation caused by the effects of flooding in 1995, the Government provided a sum of £750,000 towards a home relocation scheme by way of humanitarian aid for the victims of flooding. The scheme would enable persons and families whose houses have been damaged beyond reasonable cost of repair or whose houses suffered long-term flooding to be assisted. The fund is being disbursed through the Office of Public Works. Expenditure up to 1998 was £577,184. The amount sought in the final year of the scheme is £173,000 for the home relocation scheme.

I thank the committee for its attention. I shall be pleased to hear any of the views of the committee and will do my best to answer any questions it may wish to raise.

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive statement and I compliment the Office of Public Works officials in particular for the high quality work they have carried out in their various projects over the past year. I particularly compliment them on their work on the National Museum. It is a credit to the Office of Public Works. It is certainly comparable to similar restoration work going on in other cultural capital cities in Europe and in other parts of the world. I was in Castletown House recently for which the Office of Public Works deserves recognition because the level of craftsmanship in evidence there represents a high degree of expertise. Will the Minister outline progress on the Leinster House expansion project and tell us exactly what recreational facilities will be provided?

The improvements at Dublin Zoo are not before time. Given that the animal welfare issue is becoming so important, it was important that these improvements took place. In the light of the recent decision on battery hens, there will be more pressure on the Office of Public Works in future to improve the accommodation of the animals housed in Dublin Zoo, to ensure it is comfortable and that it does not give rise to problems of animal welfare. That will demand greater expenditure over the years ahead. It is something the Minister of State may refer to later.

At the Minister of State's first Question Time in the Dáil, I raised the issue of public access. I am not taking the credit, but I am glad the Minister has responded and has spent money. However, much more money is needed to bring up the standard of access to our public buildings. I was appalled just a few weeks ago to find that there was no access for wheelchair users to the local social welfare office in Listowel. The reason it struck me was that there was a wheelchair-bound candidate with me running for the urban council and we could not get into the community social welfare office. Although I am very interested in access, I was not aware that there was not access to this building for wheelchair users. If that is representative of social welfare offices and Garda barracks around the country, we have much ground to make up.

The Minister of State should demand more funds to allow his officials to go ahead with a comprehensive programme to ensure that there is access to all public buildings. With the National Disability Authority and the new Equal Status Bill, there will be pressure on the Minister to provide that. It is only a matter of time before someone brings a case against the Office of Public Works or the Government. However, people would be prepared to wait a bit longer if they knew an accelerated programme was in existence.

On the issue of flood relief, an extensive survey is being carried out on the Cashen river. I see no reference to it. I would like to be updated on the progress that has been made. It is one of the finest tourist attractions in that area but it also provides a livelihood for a small number of families in Cashen village and last week they could not fish because of silting in the river. Water levels are dropping at the moment and one of the nets was caught up in sand and silt. The silting is accelerating. I appeal to the Minister of State to advance the report and carry out the measures advocated.

With regard to the purchase of sites and buildings, when we were considering Supplementary Estimates previously I asked for a list of the 22 sites but I did not get it. I have since reminded the Minister of State about this. Obviously he does not want me to see some name on it. When I was a Minister of State if I did not produce some report that was requested there would have been uproar in the Dáil. I would like to be provided with that list of buildings which were purchased as soon as possible. I specifically asked for it at a meeting of this committee during the debate on the Supplementary Estimates. We will have an opportunity to ask various questions on this as we proceed.

I compliment the Minister of State and the staff of the Office of Public Works on the work carried out during the year. Perhaps in consultation with his colleagues the Minister of State will ascertain if Farmleigh House, the former residence of the Guinness family, could be taken into public ownership. The stately homes, particularly those on the north side of Dublin, such as Malahide Castle, Newbridge House, and Ardgillan Castle, are a great attraction not only for Dublin people but for tourists. However, there are few such homes on the western side of Dublin. This facility would be a great acquisition by the State. I am not suggesting it should be the residence for the Taoiseach or any of the Ministers but its acquisition should be seriously considered. I look forward to posing other questions on programmes as we proceed.

I will try to deal with the questions that have been posed. I thank Deputy Deenihan for his kind remarks concerning the people who work in the Office of Public Works. I deeply appreciate his comments and they will be appreciated by all the people involved. I could not agree with him more. The quality of their work is extraordinary. As a collective group we can take credit that through the Office of Public Works we are not only saving many skills which were dying out but we are creating opportunities for the enhancement and the rejuvenation of skills which are in short supply throughout the world. Through the work of the Office of Public Works, Ireland is becoming recognised as a reservoir of these skills. The Deputy's remarks will be passed on to the people in the various areas. Many of them are not just tradespeople, they are artists in their own right. I am pleased the quality of their work has been recognised here.

Deputy Deenihan asked about the work at Leinster House. It is progressing well and is on schedule. It will be open for business in the millennium session - the autumn session of 2000. We have had many steering committee discussions, many Whips' meetings and have kept everybody abreast of developments. We are committed to completing, in the next few months, a mock-up of what a Deputy's office will look like. We would like to hear Deputies' views on this matter. A fully scaled office will be prepared before building and that will be valuable from a Member's point of view. It will be fully furnished and comments will be taken on alterations etc. This is something that will be welcomed by everybody.

On the Deputy's specific question regarding recreational facilities, included in the building is a fitness room. There are many examples of these throughout the country. The intention is to have first-rate equipment in that room. We are not providing for the whole nation to come here and use these facilities. We have to be realistic. I have seen the facilities in Tipperary in the Sean Kelly centre, which has a fitness room. It will be on that scale and will be more than adequate in terms of servicing the whole community there. In the final designs and up to recently I had the fitness centre located in the new building but there is a view now from the Whips and various Members that they may want to use that space differently and we may locate it in this building. That is not my decision but is a view emerging from the party of which the Deputy is a member and indeed all the parties.

The one thing I would say is that those who are advising on this matter are not working out on a continuous basis. From my experience it would be better to have the fitness centre in the building, if possible.

That coincides with my view. The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Mitchell, has extraordinarily strong views on this matter and perhaps Deputy Deenihan would have a word with him. I would certainly listen to somebody such as the Deputy who has a continuing involvement in many aspects of sport. I could not agree more with him. A great deal of benefit could be brought to bear on this by people who would actually use the facility. Perhaps the Deputy would submit his own thoughts and ideas and also speak with his own colleagues. I know where he is coming from.

With regard to the building, we are happy with progress. It will be innovative. Based on all the assessments, contacts and discussions with Members from all parties there is an expectation that something really worthwhile will be achieved. I am confident about the work being put in. The people involved in heading the project in the office have given enormous time and commitment. This is not seen by them as just a project. There is a great pride and an understanding of the importance of this building, its location and its need to fit into a very important historical precinct. That can be achieved and we look forward to it. If the Deputy or any other Member has views to offer, we would be pleased to receive any information which may be helpful.

I appreciate the comments in regard to Dublin Zoo. There has been an enormous step forward in animal husbandry in the zoo. Extra land has been acquired and is available. The plans have been approved by Dublin Corporation. They have been appealed to An Bord Pleanála but we will await that outcome.

What is new?

Exactly. Members will have seen the new developments, as I have, and heard the commentary internationally on them - the international design people involved in the developments have been very complimentary about what is happening there. I could not agree more with the Deputy when he said that just because we have finished a major programme it does not mean that is the end of it. Obviously, in some places there will be ongoing development but it is important that the £15 million programme to which the Government is committed is completed. We have shortened the programme - I said this to the committee previously - to accelerate it and we would like to see it completed. We will be discussing the future needs with the people directly responsible for the zoo.

On the question of disabled access, I compliment the committee for raising this issue over the years. The committee has been the guardian of this issue. All new buildings have disabled access. The full spectrum of needs are being acquired. There is an ongoing programme in this area and I have tried to put more funding into access to a number of buildings. Difficulties are being experienced, not of our making, including planning problems and the fact that some buildings have important aspects to them. I am conscious of accelerating that programme and doing what we can because it is unacceptable to all of us who are responsible for these buildings that such a situation should arise.

On the Listowel issue, I am not aware of it but I will try to get information for the Deputy. All of the 22 decentralised buildings coming on stream are fully accessible.

On the Feale-Cashen study, I have a note about that because I thought the committee might raise the issue. I replied to the committee on 26 May as to what was happening. I do not want to go into too much detail but I would like to put it into context for the committee. It is important that members understand that the process of putting together a scheme requires an enormous amount of detail. It also requires an enormous amount of seasonal work. We cannot just do the work at one time of the year; we need a long run. The timeframe for the Cashen-Feale programme is that it will run all of this year and into next year. There is nothing we can do about that. The EISs and everything else demand that we bring all this information together and it is a two year programme that is in place. We hope to have that information by the end of the year. I do not have absolute grounds for saying this but, like in some other cases, it could prove to be extraordinarily expensive and, therefore, not cost beneficial to do something but I am hoping that will not be the case.

I do not want to give the wrong impression. We want to come up with a scheme that will meet the requirements and remove the problem the Deputy has raised consistently and of which we are aware. The studies must be done, however, to see how best we can achieve this. The committee will be aware that a two year data analysis programme is in place. That may seem like a long time but it is broken down into two month phases followed by three months, four months - in fact, there is no longer phase other than the full project report which will take six months. It is quite concise in terms of what is currently under way.

I accept the Deputy Ryan's point about Farmleigh. His comments mirror those of people who know far more than I about the architectural importance of these buildings. Consideration is being given to this matter and I will not say any more about it at this point. I understand and appreciate the Deputy's comments.

I want to be associated with the remarks made by my colleagues in complimenting the Office of Public Works. It is with a sense of pride that we see tourists coming to Ireland each year, visiting the various sites and being impressed by the standard of work, tidiness and presentation.

Will the Minister of State give me an update on the building of the Garda station in Cobh? When does he expect work to begin and how long will it take? Also, I put down a parliamentary question recently about the Custom House building in Cobh and I was told there were plans to locate a State agency in it. Perhaps the Minister would let me know now, or at a later stage by way of letter, what he plans to do with that building and the timeframe involved.

I thank Deputy Stanton for his comments which are much appreciated. People are at last beginning to realise the amount of work being done by the Office of Public Works and I am privileged to be responsible for it at this particular time. I know previous Ministers of State enjoyed their work with the Office of Public Works and I am glad that work is being openly recognised. The Cobh project will go to planning in a few weeks. We moved as quickly as we could on that. On the Custom House, I do not have the information to hand. If I get it before we conclude I will give it to the Deputy. If not, we will send a note to him in that regard. There is £0.5 million provided for it in the Estimate for this year. It is one of the bigger projects.

For Cobh?

Yes. That is just for this year.

I want to ask the Minister of State some questions and if he does not have the answers to them I would be happy for him to reply in due course. In the Revised Estimate there is £60,650,000 for new works, alterations and additions. I am sure every Deputy would like to get a breakdown of that figure on a county by county basis. I would not expect the Minister of State to have that information with him but some of those new works, alterations and additions relate to specific buildings and I am sure that information could be obtained in the Department. We all want to know how much money is being spent in our respective constituencies and I would be grateful if that information could be provided to members of the committee.

In relation to the £36.635 million for rent and rates, how much of that is rates to local authorities? I am sure a list of rates paid by the Office of Public Works to each local authority is available in the Department. I would like to know about Government buildings in my own constituency as I am sure would other members. I would be grateful if that information could be sent to me.

In relation to the £60,650,000 for new works, alterations and additions, if that level of work was being undertaken privately it could increase the value of the property and the local authority would bill the company in due course for an increase in rates. Will the £60 million and whatever we provided last year lead to an increased rates demand from each of the local authorities due to the additions to the new buildings? The Estimate for receipts from Dublin Castle has decreased from £689,000 last year to an estimated £625,000 this year. Is Dublin Castle not available or is it being used for other purposes? I am sure there is a reason for that decrease.

The Deputy is correct in his assessment. I do not have all the details on this matter. I would pleased to give the Deputy a breakdown of the £60 million but I would also be pleased to give him a breakdown of the other £100 million. The office has carried out works costing approximately £100 million for other Departments. The building programme is much greater than £60 million. I would not have any difficulty in forwarding that information to the Deputy. Part of the programme to which the Deputy referred involved a large number of Garda stations. I outlined that earlier when I mentioned the building programme for Garda stations which included stations in Clondalkin, Cobh, Mayorstone, Rathmines and Loughrea. I outlined the building programme for the Department of Social Community and Family Affairs. The State generally does not pay rates on those buildings.

On the last occasion we had a discussion on this area, I got the impression that a national formula had been worked out for the amount to be allocated to State properties. Did I get that wrong?

It is included in the local authority allocation.

I would like to know that figure.

I do not know if one could extrapolate that figure. A Bill on the valuation system is due to be introduced. We need to introduce a modern system. To enhance transparency, I would like the asset value of the State's properties to be established. The Deputy has asked the right question, but he is ahead of where we can go with the present system, as it is almost impossible to work that out. That is something of which the Deputy, the public and I should be aware. Rates could be paid on some buildings, such as vehicle registration offices and so on, which come under the remit of Departments. Did Deputy Fleming ask another question?

I also asked why the receipts for Dublin Castle have decreased.

That is due to last year being an exceptional year. That is the only reason and there is only a marginal adjustment. They could increase again.

How many technical and non-technical people are employed in the Office of Public Works? That information is probably in the report. How satisfactory is the equipment? Is the Minister of State satisfied that enough money has been set aside to ensure the equipment is up to date and of a good quality?

That is detailed in the report. A total of 1,268 people are employed in the Office of Public Works. There are 221 administrative and clerical staff, 133 architectural staff, 62 engineering staff, 62 technical staff and other professions and 730 industrial employees. In addition, approximately 50 per cent of professional technical work is done through consultants. There is no comparison between the volume of work, in terms of pounds, schillings and pence, going through the office now and the volume that went through it a few years ago. We are trying to cope with this increased workload with the same number of staff.

In regard to the architectural and technical areas, there is only so much an individual can do in terms of handling projects. We need to seriously examine this matter. I am delighted the State recently approved the recruitment by the office of ten young architects. The office is also expanding its apprenticeship schemes. All that can be done at my end is being done to address the needs in these areas. There are also fewer people in the office to cope with the increased volume of work. Staff productivity is extremely high, but there is only so much an individual can do. What was the Deputy's second question.

I asked about the office's equipment?

We have to adhere to the provisions of the health and safety Acts. The Office of Public Works will meet the highest standards laid down in this regard. As Minister of State with responsibility for this office, I know from the chairman of the Health and Safety Authority and other senior people that these standards are being met. An ongoing programme provides for upgrading equipment. None of the equipment we have is substandard. We need to keep up with technology in terms of developments, efficiency and productivity. New technology and equipment would allow us to achieve objectives in a shorter timeframe. We would love to spend more money in this area if we had a bottomless pit of money, but we have to make measured judgments based on the resources allocated. Overall, we are satisfied in this regard.

By the time the report is completed in two years' time the Cashen River will be nearly totally silted. The siltation process there is accelerating. I know the Minister of State plays some golf.

Very little nowadays.

If he were to play golf on the new course in Ballybunion, he would be looking out at the Cashen River. When the tide is out, one can see the sand and at times one wonders if there is a river flowing there. It is becoming a major problem and it is affecting farmers upstream, fishing and people's livelihoods. A less ambitious resolution might be the solution. Something will have to be done. If I am on the other side of the table in a few years' time, I might be able to get necessary money to address that problem, but I am sure the Minister of State will respond when he gets the report.

I notice that subhead A1 which deals with the administrative budget——

Before the Deputy asks that question, I wish to ask the Minister of State if he intends to make a closing statement.

The Deputy may continue then. We will have to finish before 4.45 p.m.

The briefing note states that the increase on the level of expenditure in 1998 is attributable to the extra staff working on a health and safety programme for public buildings. Does that programme include a national audit of all buildings for access purposes? By "access" I mean not only access into buildings, but access out of buildings and within buildings. It is important that wheelchair users can move around within buildings. Does the health and safety programme include an audit of the buildings that come under the control of the Minister for State? I am sure it would be easy to put in place a ramp at the social welfare office in Listowel. That could be done immediately. I know the Minister's Department is considering building a new social welfare office in Listowel.

That will, therefore, be done.

I wish to remind the Minister of State about the drawing up of a list of sites and buildings purchased. Such a list should include details on where the sites and buildings are located and from whom they were bought. Has the Minister examined the issue of PPPs with regard to the provision of public buildings? I know it has been done for Portlaoise prison. Is that part of the Minister's policy and is he encouraging it? Also is he considering any schemes which would accelerate the process of providing these buildings and also perhaps save the State money in the short-term? I would like to hear the Minister's views on PPPs.

On the administrative budget and the health and safety aspect, we have carried out an audit on all buildings regarding access. Clearly all buildings must meet exit criteria for fire regulations and we meet all of them. I do not have the specific answer for which the Deputy asked. Clearly health and safety will continue to increase in importance and for this reason we have allocated funding in the administrative budget for extra costs in this respect. Also, a saving of almost £1 million is carried over from last year. This will go to the IT and training areas which are equally important. We are trying to keep ahead of the game with investment in IT and training of staff.

The Office of Public Works has been ahead of the game on PPPs with the design-build-finance concept. Much of the decentralisation programme since 1987 has been developed by us. It is often hugely misunderstood. We have been involved in the private sector for so long people think that, with the Office of Public Works, we had a building branch but we did not. The Deputy is correct. PPPs will be part of the future in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. It is currently a matter for the Minister for Finance but from the point of view of the Office of Public Works it is very positive and there are great opportunities for the State in many areas. We will obviously give advice and we want a role for ourselves in its development. I say that because, for example, a tremendous font of expertise is now available in the Office of Public Works - which is not available to any other Department - in the context of tendering processes, procurement laws and European rules which need to be put in place and which take some time to understand in order to be handled and dealt with. The experience in project management which exists within the Office of Public Works is comparable to anything in the public sector. I hope - and I may have mentioned this before - by the end of this year we will see the first ISO 9000 accreditation to a Department going to the Office of Public Works for project management administration. That would be an enormous benchmark in international terms. If what the Deputy is suggesting needs to be demonstrated to a greater extent in that sense it will be and that will be tremendous for the office. PPPs are a big element of the future as we see it.

On the issue of rents, the Department purchased buildings last year with the overflow funds. Could the Minister state the number of buildings currently being leased and the average leasing cost per square foot?

Approximately 23 per cent of the total is leased. The savings in terms of rent due to purchasing buildings is approximately £6.2 million. As the Deputy is aware, the NTMA was involved and we are very pleased with theoutcome. The average rent per square foot is £10.87.

Subhead G concerns purchase and maintenance of engineering plant and machinery. Some of the machinery on maintenance in the Cashen area has been there since 1952. That is reflected around the country. We referred to them as dredgers then, they have different names now. The same type of plant as was used then could still be in use now.

The Deputy's point is well made. It is all part of the replacement of equipment which started last year. The Deputy is correct. I would not say that because it is old it does not work well, is inefficient or unsafe. It is important I say that. However the Deputy is clearly correct in what he has identified.

It gives a message that everything is antiquated and nobody is worried about it.

Somebody made a comment recently that the design of some old stuff, although awkward and old fashioned, was far more efficient than that of some new stuff.

On subhead H.3, the Land Commission had responsibility for embankments around the country. Some of these kept out the sea, the River Shannon or other major waterways. Since the Land Commission has gone out of existence, no one is maintaining embankments, such as the important embankment protecting the land by the River Shannon. The State paid an enormous amount of money for that land bank and now some of it is being washed into the River Shannon because the Land Commission is not maintaining the embankment. Would it be possible for the Office of Public Works to take responsibility for these embankments as the Department is doing this job already and the Land Commission is not? No doubt it would mean an increase in the Minister's budget but it could be well justified as no one is responsible for the maintenance of embankments which serve a very important function protecting land. I would like to hear the Minister's views.

Could he give a specific date when future plans for arterial drainage maintenance might be published?

On the Deputy's point regarding the Land Commission, I understand local trusts are involved in the responsibilities of the old Land Commission so it would not be a simple take-over. In general I would like to consider them. I am aware of recent cases where people could not figure out where old Land Commission lands now stand. There is much confusion out there and we need to consider the wider issues. However I take this opportunity to say that I am also aware of local authorities' minimal responsibilities. While some must be acknowledged as good, others do absolutely nothing. Consistent small amounts of maintenance by local authorities save us from problems. However, one can identify major problems which have arisen, in many cases, because of the lack of a small amount of maintenance or due care in the planning process. These issues should be taken into consideration in road networks and new designs.

I reconvened an interdepartmental group on the issues relating to flooding, which involves many Departments. A proper structure is not in place and there is too much of an expectation of an easy way out for many local bodies that the Office of Public Works will ride into town and solve these problems. That is neither our responsibility nor within our remit or capability. We must look at the range of issues which will be of benefit to local authorities and to all concerned.

It is deeply frustrating for my staff and me when I get information on situations to find out that a small amount of attention to detail, in terms of clearing the sides of roads and drains, could make a considerable difference. That is not a centralised function and I do not believe anyone would suggest it should be, although when it comes to larger issues, it is a different matter. Suggesting at council, urban district council and commissioners' meetings that it is for the Office of Public Works is nonsense and does not stand up. The Deputy's point is well made and is one at which I will look.

Is the Office of Public Works Y2K compliant?

To return to Deputy Deenihan's final question, we will publish that report as quickly as possible. It is a very substantial report and I will provide the Deputy with a copy.

Is the Office of Public Works Y2K compliant? Is the Minister happy that the agencies which deal with the office are compatible and that there will not be problems between the Office of Public Works and such agencies?

In terms of the in-house situation, the answer is "yes" as much as anyone can say that. We are ahead of the game and are satisfied. The Deputy has asked the $64,000 question about those feeding into that and if external sources are as Y2K compliant as we are. That is clearly a considerable worry for everybody. We have been doing all we can to ensure that is the case. We are clearly dependent on others behaving in a way which respects the integrity of other systems in that they must be Y2K compliant. We have done everything possible internally and with those with whom we deal to ensure that is the case. We hope there will be a successful outcome.

Is there anything in the Estimate to reflect local government planning legislation going through the Dáil whereby a number of listed buildings will be protected? There will be a greater onus on the owners of buildings of significance. Will it be next year before additional costs are incurred by the Department?

That is an interesting question. Our Department has probably been way ahead of anything which will emerge from this and we welcome it. In the context of our responsibilities, costs and buildings, we would be far ahead of the requirements that will place on us.

On behalf of the Select Committee, I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, and the Commissioner, Mr. Murphy, for attending today's meeting.

On behalf of the committee, I thank everyone for attending. I add my congratulations and praise to the Office of Public Works on the work it has been doing. I will be parochial in saying that it is doing a terrific job on Barryscourt Castle, which is next door to me, and I look forward to the day it will be opened.

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