Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 2024

Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I welcome members and also viewers who may be watching our proceedings on Oireachtas TV to the public session of the Oireachtas Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirements that the members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, and-or the convention centre in order to participate in the meeting. I cannot permit a member to participate when not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

We are dealing with the Revised Estimates for public services 2024, Department of Finance group. The Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this select committee for consideration: Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance; Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission.

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, who is accompanied by Mr. Paul Cotter, principal officer in the finance unit; Ms Laurna Cunningham, assistant principal in the finance unit; and Mr. Finn Ryder, budget manager at the Revenue Commissioners. Members will have received the briefing document provided by the Department which was circulated in advance.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and the performance information regarding the outputs and the impacts of programmes for expenditure. The programme-based structure of the Estimates should allow the committee to focus on what the Department has committed to achieving in terms of actual outputs and outcomes, consider whether the performance targets included in the Estimates represent a sufficiently completed description of the services provided by the Department and whether those targets strike the right balance in terms of the needs of society, and consider whether the information required by the Department makes clear how the moneys available are allocated between services and whether these allocations are the most appropriate in the circumstances.

I now call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael McGrath)

I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss the 2024 Revised Estimates. As Minister for Finance, I will be discussing the four Votes within the finance group of Votes: Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance; Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission. I look forward to our discussion.

The net funding allocation sought for the finance group of Votes for 2024 totals almost €570 million which compares with a 2023 Vote group total of almost €587 million, a decrease of €17 million or just under 3%. The primary driver of the decrease is a reduced allocation for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I propose to focus first on Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance. In 2024 the Department is structured around one directorate, the economic, fiscal, banking and financial services directorate. This structure has changed since 2023 when there were two separate directorates. There are a number of synergies across various units in the Department and an increased focus on working in a more integrated way.

The new structure better reflects that approach.

The net allocation sought for the Department of Finance Vote in 2024 is €42.4 million, of which €11 million is provided for a fuel grant scheme for disabled drivers. The Department’s allocation provides for both administrative and non-administrative costs. The single biggest cost remains payroll, which accounts for just over €29 million, or 68% of the total Estimate. A further €5.5 million, or 13%, is provided to cover facilities and non-pay administrative costs. The remaining allocation funds other services such as the financial services ombudsman, legal costs and other necessary outlays.

The allocation for Vote 8, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, is applied towards a single audit and reporting programme. The Comptroller and Auditor General is an independent, constitutional officer. The Comptroller and Auditor General ’s mission is to provide independent assurance that public funds and resources are used in accordance with the law, managed to good effect and are properly accounted for. The office assists the Comptroller and Auditor General in his statutory functions and is staffed by civil servants. The Comptroller and Auditor General’s financial audit role covers approximately 286 sets of accounts produced by public bodies. Together, these bodies had financial transactions with a value of more than €300 billion last year. The net allocation for this Vote in 2024 is €11.13 million, which is an increase of approximately 6% on 2023. The 6% increase will fund higher staffing costs.

Vote 9 is the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, as the Irish tax and customs administration. Revenue plays a vital role in our economy by collecting taxes and duties due to the State and implementing customs controls. In 2023, Revenue collected a record €87.2 billion in tax receipts for the Exchequer, with a further €26.16 billion collected on behalf of other Departments and agencies. The total relative cost of administration remains low at 0.46% of net collections and Revenue continues to maintain high levels of compliance for the taxes and duties under its care and management. For 2024, Revenue has been allocated a net budget of €512.25 million. This is a decrease of €13.95 million on the net budget for 2023, which followed a Supplementary Estimate of €52.3 million. The original net budget for 2023 was €473.9 million. The request for a Supplementary Estimate for the Revenue Commissioners related specifically to Rosslare Port and the need to replace temporary facilities with permanent infrastructure. More than three quarters of the total net budget allocation is related to payroll for an employment ceiling of 7,050 staff.

The external environment and significant matters, such as the UK withdrawal from the EU and the international tax agenda, will continue to be challenging in 2024. This includes the reform of the international tax framework as it applies to large corporate groups being introduced under Pillar 2 of the OECD global anti-base erosion model rules. Revenue has continued to manage EU external borders in the wake of the UK withdrawal from the EU, through its frontier management and customs functions, ensuring overall supply chain safety and security while facilitating trade.

During 2023, there was further increase in the number of customs declarations. A total of 50.3 million declarations were processed compared to 40.2 million in 2022, an increase of 25%. Revenue will continue to implement customs controls in a manner that encourages legitimate trade and supports businesses while managing compliance risks. Last year, customs enforcement led to in excess of 20,000 detections and seizures, valued at more than €380 million. Revenue maintains its risk-based approach to managing instances of non-compliance. In circumstances where timely compliance or meaningful engagement was not forthcoming, Revenue continued to pursue those who did not meet their tax and duty obligations. In 2023, there were 291,756 risk management interventions carried out, with a tax yield of €787 million. As 2024 progresses, Revenue will continue to respond to the challenges of international tax reform, while implementing and supporting tax initiatives and collecting the taxes, duties and other charges on behalf of the Exchequer.

Finally, Vote 10, the Tax Appeals Commission, TAC, has a net budget allocation of €3.8 million, an increase of 6% on the 2023 Estimate. The 2024 Estimate is to provide for the TAC to advance its programme of modernisation and reform and to address its caseload, while also meeting its obligations as an independent Civil Service entity.

I wish to conclude by thanking the Chair and the members for the invitation to be here today. I commend the 2024 Revised Estimates for the finance group of Votes to the committee. I look forward to our discussion.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I call on Deputies Doherty, Jim O'Callaghan and Walsh in that order.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus a chuid oifigigh chuig an gcoiste le scrúdú a dhéanamh ar Estimates na bliana seo. I welcome the Minister and the officials to the committee as we look at the Estimates under the four different subheads. I will dive right into Vote 7, which deals with the Minister's own office. A total of €100,000 has been allocated under policy reviews, consultancy services and research. What is the outcome of this allocation? What is it earmarked for? Under subhead A4, €2.2 million has been allocated for consultancy and other services. Can the Minister explain why there is a new line item in the Estimates this year and the purpose of it? Why can it not be incorporated into the €2.2 million that is provided to the Department for consultancy and other services?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I appreciate that some of the changes in the subheads in the presentation of the Vote can make comparison difficult. The origin of the changes to the subheads lie in the roll-out of the financial management shared services system, so some subheads are new in 2024 and other subheads are deactivated. That is presented in the table we have set out. I expect that in the future such changes will be kept to a minimum but the change is as a result of the changes to the financial reporting system and to introduce a level of standardisation across the different Votes in terms of the different headings, in particular. On the Deputy's specific question, which I think relates to the administrative budget non-paid costs, he is asking about Vote 7, policy reviews, consultancy services and research, and the €100,000 allocation.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Yes, and subhead A4. Why is it not provided for under that subhead? The budget for consultancy services has increased and is more than double the outturn of last year.

Deputy Michael McGrath

My understanding is that the allocation under Vote 7 is just for the corporate function within the Department of Finance. The bigger provision in terms of consultancy is under subhead A4, with an allocation of €2.2 million. The €100,000 is for internal matters, including health and safety audits and so on, related to the functioning of the Department.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

How would that have been provided up until now?

Deputy Michael McGrath

There was provision of €150,000 allocated to consultancy administration in 2023.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Maybe it is something that we can look at in terms of the type of consultancy that is being provided under subhead A4. Perhaps the Minister can give us a list detailing where the money was spent last year in terms of the contracts - not now, if that is okay. It can be given to the committee to save time, so we do not have to go through lists and details.

I note that €350,000 is also being allocated to the Disabled Drivers Medical Board of Appeal. This is an issue that I have raised with the Minister and his predecessor for many years. It is causing serious anxiety among the public. Thankfully, the board of appeal is up and running again but the allocation is less than half of what it was in 2023. It was €771,000 and it is now down to €350,000, which is a significant reduction. The board and the scheme more generally have been beset by problems, as the Minister will be aware, and is due to replaced at some stage by a grant-based scheme. Is the reason for this reduction that the Minister expects the scheme to be introduced in 2024? What is the rationale for it?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I know the Deputy has questioned me previously on the arrangements with the National Rehabilitation Hospital, NRH. In simple terms, the reason for the reduction is that we had a once-off payment from the Department of Finance to the Department of Health, which was, in turn, paid to the NRH last year to facilitate the resumption of the appeal board hearings in the hospital.

It does not reflect any underlying change in policy. It takes account of the fact there was a once-off payment to the Department of Health that went to the NRH, which ultimately ensured the resumption of the appeal board hearings.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We know that this is supposed to be temporary situation and other Departments outside of the Minister's own, although the Minister's Department is involved in it as well, have reviewed a grant-based scheme. Does the Minister envisage that that grant-based scheme will be up and running in 2024? How will it impact on this Estimate, which is under the Department of Finance? My understanding is that the grant-based scheme will not be under the auspices of the Department of Finance.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is correct. If it is a grant-based scheme then it will be an expenditure item. However, we are not making any assumption around the timing of it. We are making provision for the calendar year 2024 for the continuation of the existing system. However, I would like to see it being replaced sooner rather than later with a grant-based scheme, which is more appropriate given the need that is there and which is well understood across the House. We are making provision for this scheme to continue but in the event that it is replaced in 2024 with an expenditure-based scheme, we will make the necessary provision for that. That will not be a barrier to getting it up and running. We just need to get agreement across the Departments on the specific detail of a replacement scheme.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is regrettable there is no indication as to when this transition will happen. The entire board of appeal resigned because the scheme that is under the Department of Finance is not fit for purpose. I do not think anybody in the House or in Cabinet, including the Minister, accepts that it is fit for purpose. It is highly discriminatory. It does not serve the needs of those individuals who are disabled and who need access to transport. It is now January and not being able to say this is going to happen in the first, second or even third quarter of the year is really regrettable. This has been going on for a long time now. The other Department is dealing with a grant-based scheme but given that the Minister's Department is operating the scheme, which has been roundly criticised, including by the Ombudsman, I encourage him to take a hands-on approach this year and try to push the Government in a joined-up approach to get a fit-for-purpose model. It is urgently and desperately needed.

Deputy Michael McGrath

We are taking a hands-on approach. We are proactive in our work as part of the group that the Taoiseach has convened. My Department has developed proposals. Even though we are not an expenditure-based Department, we have considerable expertise and experience within the Department and within the Revenue Commissioners of the operation of this scheme, which can be of significant help in the design of a new grant-based expenditure scheme. We are being proactive in that regard. We will continue to operate the existing scheme, imperfect as it is. Many people benefit from the scheme on an annual basis. However, I agree with the thrust of what the Deputy is saying. There is a need for a new scheme and I am lending my full support to make that happen as quickly as possible.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

In regard to the OECD agreement which the Minister mentioned in his opening statement and pillar 2, we have legislated for the top-up rate of 15% for in-scope companies. That is now part of Irish tax law. This has required preparation by the Revenue Commissioners in regard to their IT system. Will the Minister update us regarding the preparations that the Revenue Commissioners have been required to undertake as a result of the change and, in particular, the implementation of pillar 2 including through ICT systems? How ready are they? I have a follow-on question on this as well.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The work is ongoing in the Revenue Commissioners in terms of the full operation of pillar 2 which, as the Deputy said, we have legislated for now in the Finance Act, though the additional revenues will not begin to come until 2026. To give an indication of the level of recruitment currently under way in respect of OECD pillar 2, 23 technical staff are targeted for recruitment in 2024 for initial implementation. The Revenue Commissioners expect that number to increase over time. It will involve recruiting staff with a diverse range of skills including accounting, strong international tax skills, corporate tax, transfer pricing and information technology skills. I understand an IT system is under development at this time to facilitate the transition.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I will come back to recruitment in the Revenue Commissioners in regard to the Estimate here, which is Vote 9.

Sticking with the pillar 2 agreement, during the passage of the legislation, the Minister gave a commitment on the cost or the benefit, the net affect, in relation to pillar 1 and pillar 2, and the implementation of such. Until now the Department has only ever provided an estimate, or a guesstimate, or whatever is the best information at hand at the time, but it was always in regard to a Revenue reduction of €2 billion. Pillar 1 is not being implemented at the minute and we hope that will proceed. However, pillar 2 is being implemented and has been passed in law. Therefore, I have asked what the impact is in relation to revenue which will start to accrue to us in 2026 in relation to pillar 2. The Minister gave the commitment to provide that. I have not yet received it. Can the Minister now share that with the committee?

What are the Minister's views on the OECD working paper that was published this month? It deems Ireland to be an investment hub under the criteria it uses. It says it could see corporate income tax rise by between 14% and 34% as a result of pillar 2. Are the Department's views in line with this? The OECD was central in regard to the agreement and this its working paper. What are the Minister's views on those two points?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I am familiar with the commitment that I gave to the Deputy and to the committee. That commitment will be fulfilled. The work is ongoing within the Department of Finance and as soon as it has been completed, it will be shared with the Deputy and the other members of the committee. I am aware of course of the OECD report. The Department and the Revenue Commissioners are much closer to the detail and will be in a position to provide an estimate. I expect it will be in the form of a range because there is considerable uncertainty and many moving parts as to what the potential additional revenues may be from pillar 2. Of course, profitability projections are part of that. Then we will continue to negotiate pillar 1.

The commitment will be honoured. I do not have that information yet. Once I have it we will write to the committee and make sure that it is shared at an early date.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Has the Minister views in regard to the OECD and its view that Ireland would be seeing an increase of between 14% and 34% in tax revenues as a result of the implementation of pillar 2?

Deputy Michael McGrath

We have always viewed this as a two-pillared solution. We have always viewed the overall impact as being a net one to Ireland. We remain of the view that it will be a net negative in cash terms but positive in terms of stability and certainty of the offering. I am not going to comment specifically on the figures that the OECD has put into the public domain because the work is ongoing within the Department. When that work is completed we will provide an update to the committee.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

This is a genuine question. As Minister for Finance, does the Minister have an indication of what the benefit of pillar 2 is likely to be to tax revenues in the State? I ask that question genuinely because we have legislated for it. It is now part of tax law; pillar 1 is not. Pillar 2 is going to happen in 2026. The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for it. Companies are preparing for it. Thousands of companies are in scope. As Minister for Finance, even if he does not want to give the information because it is being collated in the form of a range, which I can understand, surely he has an idea that the range of the increase is between 5% and 10% or between 10% and 15%.

Does he hold that view or is he completely in the dark like the rest of us, his only information being what the Department said two years ago, namely that there would be a net reduction of €2 billion regarding pillars 2 and 1 combined?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I am very close to the work ongoing within the Department. The figure we gave previously was very much based on the implementation of pillars 1 and 2. We are working on the separation of the two in that we are now updating the estimate for pillar 2, although it could well be the case that pillar 1 will be agreed this year or next year. The precise timeframe for the implementation of that is unclear. The work is ongoing and I am respecting the process. I get certain high-level updates but not detail I am in a position to share at this point. However, I have given a commitment that we will be transparent about the work once it is completed. I accept the point the Deputy has made. When legislating through a Finance Bill, we always understand the cost of or yield from a particular measure. This is a very complex matter but, at the same time, it is possible to arrive at an estimate of the range of potential outcomes. The question is reasonable and one we will answer when the work is complete, which I expect will be in the coming weeks.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I thank the Minister. I appreciate that. We look forward to seeing the work. I thank the officials for preparing information on it for the committee, including me.

I want to return to Vote 9, which concerns the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the new tax responsibility that was delegated to it in 2021 under the Stamp Duties Consolidation Act. It relates to the stamp duty of 10% on bulk purchases of ten or more relevant residential housing units. I am referring to vulture funds coming in and buying up housing estates. The Government at the time introduced a stamp duty rate of 10%, which I argued would not have the desired effect. Information that the Department released to me last week shows it has not had the effect of stopping the bulk purchase of residential homes and houses at the expense of first-time buyers or other purchasers. It shows that, since the Government introduced the measure, there have been 1,205 bulk purchases to which the stamp duty applied, with numbers increasing each and every year to the point that 623 were bulk-purchased by the funds last year. Is it not the case that the Department told the Minister this? Why did he not act when the Department made him aware that hundreds of houses were still being purchased by the funds despite the fact that the stamp duty applied?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Deputy. I believe he is referring to the Tax Strategy Group papers of 2023 that examine this issue and contain a short note on it. They provide an update on the number of properties in respect of which the 10% stamp duty rate has been applied. As the Deputy has indicated, I have shared with him the latest information I have available across the three years 2021, 2022 and 2023. It is worth pointing to some of the context. I have been examining the data at hand and the various issues involved. The first point to make is that not all the properties concerned are new. The Department, having consulted the Revenue Commissioners, estimates that approximately one third of the properties concerned are second-hand dwellings. In all likelihood, they were already occupied. It is likely in those instances that there was an institutional investor on both sides of the transaction. It is likely that the seller was an institutional investor, and the buyer was obviously an institutional investor; therefore, the 10% stamp duty rate applied. In respect of the proportion of the cases overall, it is not the case that an investor came in to buy homes that would otherwise have been available to individual buyers. They were second-hand and already occupied, not available for first-time purchases.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is it not the case that the Minister has no information on whether they were occupied?

Deputy Michael McGrath

They were second-hand.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

They were second-hand, which means they could have been vacant. Seventy percent of first-time purchasers are buying second-hand homes.

Deputy Michael McGrath

A third of them were second-hand. It is likely and I accept that at least some of them – we do not know how many-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is okay; that is likely.

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----were occupied. An important point is that they were second-hand homes, not new.

It is also worth pointing out that, in respect of the stamp duty paid, there was a rebate of about €1.6 million to the entities that paid it because of the end use of the properties concerned. Some were used for social housing in the context of the refund provisions provided for at the time of the legislative change. That is an important point to bear in mind. It is our understanding that at least one organisation subject to the 10% rate of stamp duty had acquired properties to house international protection applicants and had paid the 10% stamp duty rate. International protection was the end use in the context of those particular transactions.

I make these points by way of additional context. I am aware that the Deputy and his party have raised this issue several times in recent weeks. The transactions in question represent a very small proportion of the overall market or overall number of transactions or new builds over the period in question. Of course, they sit alongside the planning change, which will become increasingly relevant because an increasing number of developments built will have obtained planning permission under the new regime where the associated owner-occupancy conditions will have been relevant. Those points are important in the overall context of this issue. As is always the case, we keep taxation matters under review.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister says all taxation matters are always kept under review, which is fair enough, but is he actively reviewing this with the intention of making a change outside the budgetary and Finance Bill cycles? That is the impression that is being given. Is the Government now actively considering the possibility of changing the stamp duty on the bulk purchase of homes by the funds?

Deputy Michael McGrath

As the Deputy can see, I have been digging into the issue, which is always what I or any Minister would do in seeking to fully understand the detail of what is happening behind individual transactions that amount to a certain level of activity overall. It is worth making the point that the homes do not disappear; they are occupied, be it by an individual or family renting or by a first-time buyer. That is important to note by way of context.

The Deputy’s party leader raised a wider issue in the Dáil today that seems to conflate the issue with much forward-commitment purchasing in the apartment sector, where many institutional investors are entering contractual commitments before a sod is turned. That accounts for the vast bulk of the role of institutional investors in the property market in Ireland. Without them in these instances, the developments would simply not happen. We are going to need tens of thousands of apartments in the years ahead, costing tens of billions of euro. Institutional capital has an important role to play. I do not make taxation changes lightly, and that is why it has always been my view that they are best made as part of the budgetary process. We have just come through a detailed consideration of the Finance Bill. The Deputy and others have had many opportunities to raise this issue. I do not believe it was raised by anyone at any stage in the Dáil or Seanad, or on Committee Stage. I will continue to do my job, examine the issue and keep it under review.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister mentioned that the transactions relate to a small portion of the market. That is what is in the speaking notes the Government has been given but the reality is that the portion is not small. In fairness, the Minister was told this by his officials through the tax strategy paper. It states the measure has not been entirely successful in its goal and that hundreds of homes, new and existing, are being bought by vulture funds in the market. The Government promised this would not happen. The Minister seems to be justifying this by saying the houses do not disappear. They do not disappear but we know what is happening. The funds are charging rents of €3,175 down the road in Dublin 17. The Minister either believes it is wrong or believes it is right.

The Minister has started to talk about apartments. We are very conscious of what is happening with houses. Deputy McDonald put it on the record. In 2022, the year after the Government introduced these measures, the funds bought up 2,053 houses across the State.

They were houses, not apartments. Let us not introduce the idea of forward funding, forward purchasing or forward financing. Let us talk about the fact that 2,053 houses were bought by institutional funds in 2022. Does the Minister know what percentage of the overall new-build housing in the State that represents? It is significant. There were 20,000 new builds in 2022. The number of new dwellings purchased that year, which includes apartments and houses, was 2,353. Those are census figures.

Did the penny drop last week when this issue started to be raised? The tax strategy papers told the Minister this was not working. The Minister can get the figures I got last week at any time. The Government has tried to throw this over to us. We told it in 2021 that this was not working. In our alternative budget we have an increase in stamp duty as part of our proposal. The CSO published the data last year. In 2021, the Department did a report on the fact that institutional investors accounted for 10% of all purchases and sales in the market in 2021. The problem here is that the CSO data, which does not include approved housing bodies, shows that institutional funds bought more homes than ever before in 2022. They bought more houses, apartments, existing dwellings and new homes than ever before in 2022.

There has been fake outreach from the Government where it says we need to look into this and we are going to review it. As the Minister for Finance, I suggest to the Minister, given what he has said, that he does not have a notion of doing anything about this issue outside the budgetary cycle. Why would he? He was told about this last year and did nothing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

After the Minister replies, we will move on to the next speaker. I assure members that there will be a second round of questions.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The data that we have, which we shared with the Deputy, points to about 1,200 properties being purchased where the 10% stamp duty was paid. The Deputy is seeking a change in the rate of stamp duty to, I think, a minimum of 17%. It is reasonable for me to point out that we have just come through a lengthy Finance Bill process and the Deputy, as the lead Opposition spokesperson, did not raise the issue. I am entitled to make that point.

I am also entitled to make the point that of the 1,200 properties in question, we know that about one third are second-hand and it is very likely, and we will dig into this further, that there were institutional investors on both sides of those transactions - selling and buying. We also have confirmed that, at least in some instances, the end use of the properties concerned was for public and social housing. In addition, the end use in certain instances was for international protection applicants. We know that for a fact as well. I do not make taxation changes on the hoof. We are dealing here with taxation in property. We all know that we want to increase the supply of homes of all kinds in our economy in the period ahead. Institution capital has a role, particularly in the forward-purchase commitments. We do not want to see institutional investors coming in and purchasing housing estates that were built for the purpose of first-time buyers or second- or third-time buyers. We do not want to see that. I think that the Deputy will accept the Government's intent in relation to that issue. I will continue to dig through the detail and identify-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I have one final question on the detail. I assume the Minister's accepts the CSO data. The CSO data, and the Department, uses a proxy for institutional investors as finance and insurance, and real estate.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Those are the two main categories; I think we can all agree on that. The data for 2022, which is the latest we have as the new data for last year will be published in March, shows that institutional investors in 2022 bought 5,887 homes. That figure includes apartments but let us look at houses. There were 2,053 houses but for the same year, in terms of the bulk purchases where stamp duty applied, the figure was 3,095 homes. If the Minister limits the discussion to those funds that paid the stamp duty, which makes up the 1,205 figure with which we are familiar, he is excluding the vast majority of purchases that are happening. There were 2,053 purchases by institutional investors in 2022 alone. Only a small number of them fell into the category of stamp duty. I assume the main reason that is the case is that stamp duty only applies to bulk purchases of ten or more units. Does the Minister acknowledge that the scale of this is much bigger than he has presented in terms of funds that are buying but subject to stamp duty? The vast majority of funds that are buying are not subject to stamp duty and, therefore, there is a requirement to look at the ten-unit figure as it probably needs to be reviewed significantly as well.

Deputy Michael McGrath

To be clear and fair, the issue that I am responding to is the one the Deputy and his party have raised over the last couple of weeks in particular, namely, the 10% stamp duty rate.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Can I reply to the Minister?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, absolutely.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister is replying.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Deputy has now raised an issue related to the CSO and the figure of approximately 2,000 houses that have been purchased under that category of purchaser, as reported. I will examine the matter and seek a reconciliation of those. The obvious one is that those institutional advisers are buying a total number of units, by investor, of less than ten across the year.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is a problem.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, and let us examine that. I will certainly examine it further. That is a very big difference, so we need to understand exactly the make-up of that category and then what the end use of those properties are. I will commit to doing that work. The issue that has been raised heretofore, in the past couple of weeks, has been about the 10% stamp duty.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome the Minister and his officials to the committee. I also welcome the fact that the net funding being sought for the finance group of Votes is 3% less than last year. That deserves to be noted, commented upon and commended. I know Rosslare is the reason for it but, nonetheless, it is not always the case that Votes have to inexorably increase all the time.

The Minister mentioned, in respect of the Department of Finance, that it is now structured around one directorate. What was it before? In 2023, there were two. I ask the Minister to give an overview of how effective this new structure is working. Does he think it is being effective?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes. It is entirely a presentational matter in terms of the presentation of the accounts. It does not impact on the structure of the Department from a day-to-day or governance point of view. It relates to the presentation of programmes A and B in the financial accounts. It does not impact on the different divisions within the Department. Many of the administration costs, such as departmental running costs, are shared by different divisions. To better reflect the reality of how the Department will operate in 2024, the Estimates have been presented under one programme. It is very much from the lens of the accounts.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Regarding Vote 8, Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, we sometimes do not give credit for efficiency and good value for money within the public sector. The C and AG’s office audits, reviews and supervises financial transactions with a value of over €300 billion per year, and does so with funding of €11 million per year. Is the Minister satisfied with the work that is being carried out by that office?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I certainly am. The Deputy makes a valid point. Perhaps the office would like a larger budget but given the budget it has and the reach and importance of the work it does, it represents very good value for money. That level of assurance and oversight of public expenditure, and the auditing of accounts and ensuring that public spending is done in a manner consistent with the law and the purpose for which it was allocated and voted on by this House in the case of voted expenditure, provide important reassurance and play a crucial role in our system of public administration. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General does a remarkable job. I recently attended an event marking its centenary, and I take the opportunity again to commend Mr. McCarthy and his whole team on the work they do.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I am just conscious that if we did not have this constitutional officeholder and the consequent office, and if we had to ask the private sector to carry out the financial audit that it covers, I think the Minister would agree with me that we would be paying multiples per year to many very large accountancy firms in the city and elsewhere.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I could not comment on my former profession and the value for money it offers. We are very fortunate to have the C and AG, however.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

In terms of the Revenue Commissioners, the Minister will be aware that there is a debate at present about the funding of public sector broadcasting in Ireland. One of the issues that is repeatedly referred to is that maybe we should hand over collection of the licence fee, or whatever fee will be charged for national broadcasting, to the Revenue Commissioners.

What is the Minister's own view on that? Is there any opposition coming from the Revenue Commissioners to it? We need to take into account that they are very effective at collecting money from the public in general. What is the downside to handing over this responsibility to them?

Deputy Michael McGrath

First, the Revenue Commissioners will implement Government policy. If, therefore, the Government makes a decision to expand the role of the Revenue Commissioners and provides a legislative basis for that and clarity on exactly what the role is, the Deputy can be sure they will take on that role. I think the Deputy is right. We can also be assured that they will do a very good job and be very professional and effective in their duties. That said, it is the case that the Revenue Commissioners collect tax. Therefore, the collection of the existing television licence fee is not one that I would see as being consistent with the role or mandate of the Revenue Commissioners. As the Deputy knows, however, the Government is considering the funding options for public service broadcasting in the medium to long term to make sure that there is a sustainable funding source there. It could be the case that the Government will decide to replace the existing licence fee with some other charge. A discussion may well then take place as to the best collection mechanism. I am not, therefore, ruling out a role for the Revenue Commissioners in the future, but that decision is one that will have to be made in the context of whether the licence fee is going to be replaced with another charge and then what the nature and characteristics of such a charge will be and whether it would be consistent with the Revenue Commissioners' mandate. That is my view on that particular issue.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is ultimately a political decision to be made. There is no secret opposition from the Revenue to being asked to do something which, obviously, becomes Government policy in the future.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Revenue Commissioners will faithfully implement Government policy. We have a duty to ensure that we give them tasks that are appropriate to what they do and to their mandate and structure. Their core purpose is to collect tax.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I am conscious that the Minister is ministerially responsible for the Revenue Commissioners, but he is not operationally responsible. Is there any understanding of how the Revenue is doing and continuing to manage the EU external borders? The Minister stated in his opening statement that they are continuing to do that. How demanding is it? How challenging is it? I do not know if anyone from the Revenue wants to talk about that.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I have not had any concerns raised by the Revenue Commissioners with my office. Our focus has been to ensure that they have sufficient resources to carry out their functions, including in respect of customs and they do that work to a very high standard. I do not, therefore, have any concerns with regard to their ability to continue to fulfil those obligations. Obviously, however, Brexit has introduced a new layer of complexity in terms of the customs border that is now there. Even in the absence of tariffs, we do have a customs border since the UK left the EU customs union and that has added additional work for the Revenue Commissioners. That is work that has been under way nor for a number of years.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. I thank the Minister.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister for that. I will start with Vote 10 on the Tax Appeals Commission. It deals with large and very complex legal cases against some of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations in the State. Naturally, the corporations wish to pay as little tax as possible and employ very competent and large legal teams in doing that.

In 2021, there was a quantum of €4.2 billion to be decided by the Tax Appeals Commission and €2.8 billion related to just five multinational companies, which, again, have huge legal teams on it. For example, one of those included a case of a multinational company that Revenue claimed owed €1.64 billion. After a long and protracted negotiation, the settlement was reduced to just a fraction, at €300 million. Does the Tax Appeals Commission have adequate staff and resources to effectively deal with the complex cases? A figure of €3.8 million seems like small number for the huge task it has in order to do its work in a timely and efficient manner, obviously, in a way that benefits the State, but also that companies get issues resolved quickly.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Deputy. The Tax Appeals Commission is a very important body and is crucial to the fair administration of our tax system. Perhaps I can bring the Deputy up to date and share some additional information. As of the end of 2023, the commission had 1,139 appeals on hand. That is a 24% reduction in the number on hand at the end of 2022. Despite an additional 1,156 appeals being received during the same period, the quantum of tax under dispute reduced from €1.3 billion at the beginning of 2023 to €519 million at the end of 2023. The commission closed 1,521 appeals in 2023, which is a 43% decrease in comparison to 2022. However, that was an exceptional year. The value of appeals closed in 2023 amounted to €1.39 billion, which is a 130% increase in comparison to 2022. During 2023, it had 175 determinations affecting 219 appeals, which is an 8% decrease in comparison to 2022. The value of determinations issued amounted to €409 million, which is a 40% increase in comparison to 2022.

I will just double-check one matter because I see an inconsistency in the numbers. I have two different figures in terms of the amount of tax under dispute that is currently before the Tax Appeals Commission. We are going to clarify that and make sure the committee has the accurate up-to-date figure. There seem to be two different figures here.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Okay. That will be grand if the Minister can clarify it. I will just go back to 2021. The chair of the Tax Appeals Commission stated that she required an additional ten to 12 commissioners to adequately deal with the scale and complexity of the cases. That would have brought the total staffing numbers up to 40. Does the Minister know what the current staffing levels are in terms of commissioners? If he does not have that information, he could also furnish that to the committee.

Deputy Michael McGrath

In terms of the number of staff working within the Tax Appeals Commission, at the end of 2023, it was 32 and the financial estimate for 2024 provides for 37 staff. We are, therefore, seeing an ongoing increase in the staffing resources for the TAC. Sanction was granted to the TAC in 2020 for additional posts, which increased the target numbers to 35. Significant recruitment took place in 2019 and 2020, including the appointment of the inaugural chair of the TAC in July 2020 and the appointment of three temporary appeal commissioners in the second half of 2019. Two and a half full-time equivalent, FTE, commissioners completed their contracts in 2021 and five additional temporary appeal commissioners joined the commission in 2022. In 2023, two commissioners completed their contracts, and a competition is currently under way to recruit additional temporary commissioners. As I said, it is anticipated that the staffing sanction for 37 staff will be achieved this year.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That is just short of the 40. Does the Minister know how many of those have legal qualifications? I know that is a bit minute but it is important. We have to get a balance here in terms of what they are dealing with, and the huge resources and legal teams that companies are dealing with as well.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is a fair point. I will commit to a note to the committee on the Tax Appeals Commission in terms of the different qualifications and backgrounds broadly-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Just the legal ones.

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----of the staff and an up-to-date accurate figure in terms of the value of tax in dispute currently before the TAC.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister.

In respect of Vote 7, he has outlined in subheading VII for his Department that it will cover in part the requirement for private consultants. He has allocated €100,000 for policy reviews, consultancy services and research. That figure was €150,000 in 2023.

In a written response to me on 20 April 2023, the Minister informed me that his Department had spent €5 million on private consultants, including over €1 million for KPMG alone. How can you reconcile the small figures presented as part of the Revised Estimates each year and the higher figures that we see in practice? Are there subheads where generalist consultancy firm services could be included? It is very difficult for us to see exactly how much is spent on consultants across the board and what these consultants actually do.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Deputy. Again I acknowledge that the change in the subheads has created a challenge for comparing on a like-for-like basis. To clarify, the €100,000 she refers to under the administrative budget for non-pay, under VII, relates to the internal corporate office within the Department. It pertains to consultancy costs associated with the running of the Department, rather than policy issues. It would be health and safety, for example, for staff within the Department and so on. It would not be the normal consultancy work to which she refers. On that question, then, under subhead A4, consultancy and other services, we have presented a comparison. The 2023 Estimate was over €2 million but the actual provisional outturn is €856,000, a very significant underspend there for consultancy in 2023. The Revised Estimate we are asking members to consider today for 2024 is €2.155 million. As for the plan regarding its use and how that funding will be deployed, a lot of it will be in the banking division for consultancy covering issues such as SME finance and mortgage arrears. We have reconstituted the long-term mortgage arrears group to look at all the different issues that arise in the context of high interest rates and the impact they may have on people. On anti-money laundering, as the Deputy knows there is a AML package at EU level, as well as consultancy on issues such as personal debt. There will be an allocation of €450,000 in the shareholding and financial advisory division, which deals with the State's relationship with the banks in which we continue to hold shares. Issues arise from time to time and need to be the subject of expert advice.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

In the correspondence I got back from the Minister, €2.5 million was allocated to Oliver Wyman for a resource allocation analysis and associated professional services. What is that?

Deputy Michael McGrath

What year was that for?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That was for 2023, under your own Department where I have a list.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Is that from a parliamentary question, Deputy?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is from the Minister, yes. The question I asked was the costs for consultancies under his Department, the bodies under the aegis of the Department of Finance. I have that list. That one stood out as being much larger than all the rest at €2.5 million.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I think that is not under Vote 7. It almost certainly comes under the Vote of a body under the aegis of the Department, which would not be one of the Votes here. We can clarify it. The Deputy's note does not separate it out by body, does it?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It does.

Deputy Michael McGrath

What body is listed above the Oliver Wyman figure?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No, sorry, it separates it out by consultant and the purpose of the contract and the value of the contract. The consultant is Oliver Wyman and the purpose is resource allocation analysis and associated professional services. I am not picking that for any other reason than that it is substantially higher.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is not the Department of Finance, so it must be one of the bodies under the aegis of the Department. It could be the NTMA, the Central Bank - we will check that out. It is not within our Vote.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will just state- maybe this is something for the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, under public expenditure rather than yourself - it is very challenging trying to find out why and how much money is allocated for consultants. My concern is if we are losing so much expertise within the Departments that we really need to have and to build up as an asset for the State, rather than contracting everything out. Also, are the decisions that are made being made by the Government or by consultants?

Deputy Michael McGrath

We as a Department actually publish our spend on consultants. For 2023, the full detail of that will be published. I think it is important that while we try to keep the spend on consultancy to a minimum and that should always be the objective, there will be occasions where expert advice is needed on specific public policy issues. I take the broader point about building up the capacity within our Department and other Departments as well. The Deputy will see in Vote 7, for example, a very significant increase in salary provision for 2024. That is because we are in the midst of a significant recruitment campaign. We are going to be filling a lot of vacancies within the Department in the coming period. Of course, Ireland will be preparing for the EU Presidency, which we will host in the second half of 2026. It might seem like a long way away but when it comes to the amount of planning and preparation involved, that work is well under way and will have to involve recruiting additional staff in the key Departments. We have that in mind as well when looking at the figure of €29 million that we have provided under salaries, wages and pensions.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Does the Department of Finance do internships in terms of recruitment out of colleges?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes we do, through the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service. They provide internship opportunities.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

How many would you take on in the Department? It is a very competitive field in respect of graduates coming out of colleges. The Government and Departments have to be able to get the brightest and the best, to attract them in the first instance and then to retain them. Perhaps the Minister can give me a picture of how many and so on.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I can assure the Deputy, having been in this Department for just over a year, the quality of the recruits we are bringing on board is really high. I am very satisfied with the qualifications and talent of the people who are coming in. The Department of Finance is the primary client for an administrative officer, AO, graduate competition. We have a graduate competition that we run. It is strongly contested in terms of the campaign itself. That work will continue. I am advised that there are internship opportunities.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is the Minister able to tell me how many?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I do not know offhand. We will revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Obviously, when we are looking at a brain drain and people moving all over the world, including to Australia and all that, it is a challenge for us to retain the people we need here.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Deputy is absolutely right; it is a challenge. There is a battle for talent in all sectors.

The public service, including the Civil Service, has to compete. The State is a good employer and the Civil Service is a very good employer. I see the life-long learning opportunities, educational opportunities and career progression prospects, and the ability to rotate in various parts of a Department, other Departments and other parts of the Civil Service. There is a lot to be said for it but Deputy Conway-Walsh is right that we have to continue to seek to attract the best talent. We are competing with so many other sectors and doing very well.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The Minister had sold it well. The Comptroller and Auditor General reviews 286 accounts. Has the Minister considered extending the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General to oversee all public bodies? I am thinking particularly of commercial public bodies and semi-State bodies. The RTÉ scandal should have immediately led to the Government ensuring the Comptroller and Auditor General had a dual audit role for RTÉ given the level of public money that was involved. I note there is only a minor increase in resourcing for the Comptroller and Auditor General in these Revised Estimates. Does this mean the Government is not going to move on the issue to ensure the Comptroller and Auditor General has an audit role in more public bodies and semi-State bodies?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh. Commercial State bodies have a different construct. They have a different relationship with the State. They have their own boards and fiduciary duties. They would have their own external auditors. It would require a change in the legislation to extend the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General to such bodies. Other governance and legal issues would need to be considered. I am not actively considering extending the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General to other bodies, especially commercial State bodies, at this time.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Where there is a split, such as in RTÉ, so there is one element that is commercial and another that is public, can the Comptroller and Auditor General's role be extended to be able to cover this?

Deputy Michael McGrath

The system here has found out a way of holding people to account. The arts and culture committee and the Committee of Public Accounts have held many hearings into RTÉ in recent months. I do not think there has been barrier to accountability in that sense. Extending it to commercial State companies raises other issues that need to be considered. I would need to give this some consideration.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is something that should be considered notwithstanding the effectiveness of the committees. They are looking back. I am asking about a situation whereby we prevent the things that happened in RTÉ from happening in the first place. If there was oversight from the Comptroller and Auditor General, these things would be less likely to happen. The aim is to avoid them happening and ensure continuous accountability. It is something that needs to be considered.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Commercial State companies have their own governance structure, boards, audit and risk committees and reporting arrangements.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is public money.

Deputy Michael McGrath

They have a different relationship. I will have look at the points Deputy Conway-Walsh has made-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Please do.

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----but I do not have any plans at this time. It would not be appropriate given the nature of many of the commercial State companies. They have a different role and different responsibilities and accountability lines compared with State bodies.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I disagree. It is something that seriously needs to be looked at.

With regard to the additional funding for Revenue to deliver customs infrastructure in Rosslare, what was the original estimated cost of the capital project and the original scheduled time for delivery? What is the current estimated cost of the project and the estimated time of delivery?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh. As she knows, there are a number of public bodies involved in the Rosslare Europort project. The total estimated cost of the project is €236 million, shared between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Health and the Revenue Commissioners. The Revenue Commissioners portion of this is €81.255 million. There is approximately €30 million outstanding to be paid. Works commenced last October and the expected timeframe for completion is 28 months. We anticipate completion within this timeframe. Of the €81.255 million, €30 million is outstanding. Revenue has paid the balance and there is €30 million outstanding.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Since Brexit, people must pay a duty if they order something from Britain. Where does this money go and how much has been collected?

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is collected by Revenue and goes into our system. I do not have the figures to hand. I am sure parliamentary questions could be asked or we can-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I ask the Minister to look at this.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It goes into the general customs heading in our framework. We have the information-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Will the Minister let the committee know how much has been-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Of course. Deputy Conway-Walsh wants to see the change since Brexit.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Yes, that is it exactly. It is to be able to monitor it.

Revenue is open to customer queries online up to 1.30 p.m. I was not aware until yesterday that had changed and it only takes calls up to lunchtime.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, I understand that is correct.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is very important for all of these Departments, including Revenue which has a good track record, to be open to being contacted by people to be able to answer queries. Not everybody has broadband or Internet or IT literacy to be able to contact them. Additional resources-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Deputy Conway-Walsh is right. Human-to-human contact should be facilitated.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Vulture funds and financial companies getting involved in the housing market has been discussed. This is an area the Central Bank needs to look at. There has been a renewed urgency in recent times by the funds to repossess properties that have been in arrears for years. These properties have been the subject of numerous attempts to resolve the issue but the holder of the mortgage never wanted to resolve the problem until now, when the market is at its peak. The Central Bank should have a look at this and I intend to raise it with it.

Something else we need to have a look at some time soon is the extent to which funds have repossessed properties that another bank had funded and the extent to which they are putting them on the market in a hurry on the Internet. This is quite common. From the moment they get their talons into the properties, they will do virtually anything to get them sold as quickly as possible. There could be a conflict of interest because they could be selling and buying their own properties. One of the questions that I ask, and I am sure everybody asks it from time to time, is whether a property will go on the free and open market. They do not want to do that. It is an area that would bear looking at. It is causing concern to the Minister and members of the committee. We should investigate it, insofar as we can, as quickly as possible and try to be of some assistance.

On the other matter under discussion, referred to by Deputy Conway-Walsh, regarding the case of the Comptroller and Auditor General, we need to be cautious where we enter into this field because the Comptroller and Auditor General has a retrospective role to play in where the money was spent by the State, Departments and so on and so forth. If we were to hand over that area and his or her ability to say to the Minister, "By the way, you should not spend money on this and it would be better next year", there would be a crossover in the political role and the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General cannot be involved in that context. It has been known to happen from time to time but it is not supposed to, on the basis that it is a policy matter and policy is an area strictly reserved for the politicians, including Ministers, Deputies and everybody in these roles. It has been that way from the beginning. It is a constitutional issue and I certainly would not like to see this changing because we all have our respective roles to play. Our hands should not become tied behind our backs or elsewhere. A situation could arise if something were to happen that might control policy to an extent we might not be happy with.

There are a couple of other issues. I am glad the Minister is here because I heard him on the radio this morning waxing lyrically about ATMs. We support him entirely in this regard. We took up an issue with the Central Bank in this regard too and perhaps he might use his good influence as well. We had a little ATM machine in this House and it was very convenient for the staff members here, especially in winter when people very often need cash, to which they are entitled as the Minister stated himself. We would like him to encourage, and we will certainly encourage, the little machine being brought back here for the convenience of customers. I say this because everyone is a customer, including all the staff, the Minister, me and everybody else.

I agree with what was referred to this morning. There were several occasions where I found myself over the month of December, which was not the most rain-free month in the year, having to wait and travel from one ATM machine to another based on them being out of order or only being able to supply a limited amount such as €50 or less. This is the customer's own money, though. I agree we need to look into this matter to encourage the lending institutions in this regard and remind banks that the State and the taxpayer bailed them out not so long ago. If it were not for the willingness of the taxpayers to do that, a different situation might have arisen in this regard. I am sorry for going on about this issue but I know it is not falling on deaf ears when I address these comments to the Minister

Deputy Michael McGrath

On that issue, I ask the committee to do its best to get the pre-legislative scrutiny done quickly so we can drive on and get this Bill passed into law.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and his officials very much for coming before us.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the committee.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the members of the committee who gave of their time, wisdom and knowledge, the combination of which will undoubtedly be of benefit to the country at large. I again thank the Minister and his officials for being here. Some members have requested that further information be sent to the committee. The consideration of the Revised Estimates has concluded. Is that agreed? Agreed. At our next meeting, we will deal with the Revised Estimates for the Public Services 2024 with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform.