I welcome the Taoiseach and his officials. I wish him well in his new position.
Members will be aware of the privilege whereby if they are on the Leinster House campus, they are entitled to full privilege, whereas if they are not, they may have only limited privilege. The Dáil has ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services in respect of these Votes be referred to the committee.
I invite the Taoiseach to make his opening remarks.
I thank the Chairman for the invitation to attend and for the opportunity to appear before the select committee to consider the 2024 Revised Estimates for Votes 1 to 3, inclusive, and 5 and 6. A detailed briefing document for each of these Votes has been supplied to the committee in advance of the meeting. While I have certain responsibilities for the Oireachtas for the administrative matters in some of these offices, they do operate independently of my Department. I will focus mainly, therefore, on the work of the Department of the Taoiseach and its proposed 2024 Revised Estimate.
On Vote 1, the Estimate for the President's Establishment is €5.26 million, up 3% on 2023. This includes just under €3.6 million for pay and administration, with the balance to fund the centenarians' bounty.
On Vote 3, the Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General is just over €24 million. This is a decrease of 10% on 2023. A total of €16.2 million of this relates to staff costs and €3 million is allocated to the Law Reform Commission.
On Vote 5, the Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is €61.3 million, up 2% on the previous year. A total of €21.5 million has been allocated for fees to counsel and €9.6 million to fund the local State solicitor service.
On Vote 6, the Estimate for the Chief State Solicitor's Office this year is just under €48.9 million, the bulk of which relates to salaries and administration. A provision of just over €18.2 million is allocated for the payment of legal fees incurred.
The 2024 gross Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach's Vote is €37.9 million. A total of 70% of the Estimate relates to staff and administration operating costs. The remaining €11.9 million provides funding for the National Economic and Social Development Office, which incorporates the National Economic and Social Council, the proposed Covid-19 evaluation, citizens' assemblies and several independent inquiries.
The priorities of the Department of the Taoiseach are set out in a statement of strategy for 2023 to 2025. They reflect the central role of the Department in working across government to implement programme for Government commitments underpinning a sustainable economy, a successful society and the pursuit of this country's interests abroad. With my appointment as Taoiseach, a new statement of strategy for the Department will be published in the coming months.
Despite a backdrop of weakening growth and rising international economic uncertainty in recent months, including the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East, Ireland's domestic economy continues to perform strongly. This is evident in the number of people at work, namely, a new record level of just over 2.7 million, and within that female participation in the labour market is now among its highest ever levels. Job growth, I am pleased to say, is also taking place in all the regions. While prices have been rising annually since April 2021, we have seen a welcome moderation and downward trend in inflation in recent months. March was the fifth consecutive month since December 2021 when the annual growth in the consumer price index was below 5%, with inflation now at 2.9% over the past 12 months. This week's stability programme update projects headline inflation of 2.1% for this year.
We cannot, however, take our economic progress for granted. What has seen us through recent challenges is our commitment to an economic model that has served Ireland well.
This includes a stable and competitive tax offering, a pro-enterprise environment, membership of the European Union, support for free trade and investment agreements, investing in critical skills and welcoming people with those skills to our shores and incremental and real improvements in working conditions. We have assisted businesses in recent years to remain operating and to ensure our continuing competitiveness, innovativeness and resilience into the future. We are also taking significant steps to increase public capital investment, while establishing two longer-term funds to ensure our corporation tax receipts are available for future investment and to provide for the needs of future generations.
While budget 2024 measures are continuing to come into effect, a number are already in place and are assisting with the cost of living. This includes the payment of electricity credits to every household, and the third payment of €150 is taking place during this current billing cycle, an increase of €12 to the maximum rate of all weekly social welfare payments and a once-off double week for all qualifying social welfare payments, an increase to the national minimum wage, lower income taxes, an increase to the ceiling at which USC will apply and increases to the VAT registration threshold for businesses.
While, as I have said, our economy is performing well, events in Ukraine and the Middle East continue to be matters of grave concern. Ireland condemns the large-scale attacks by Iran on Israel. They are reckless and a flagrant threat to international peace and security, and we continue to call on all parties to show maximum restraint. It is now even more clear that the conflict in Gaza must end, for the sake of the people of Gaza and the wider region and for international peace and security. There must be an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, there must be an immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and there needs to be a massive and sustained surge in humanitarian aid into Gaza. This country, as committee members will know, does stand ready to recognise the State of Palestine and is minded to do so in the short time ahead, ideally along with a small number of other states of the European Union.
The situation in Ukraine is also of serious concern. I spoke to President Zelenskyy by phone during my first full day as Taoiseach and also heard from him at the European Council last week. I reiterated to him this country's unwavering commitment to Ukraine's freedom, democracy and territorial integrity, to its future as a member of our European Union and to President Zelenskyy's peace formula. We remain steadfast in our strong political and practical support for Ukraine as it exercises its legitimate right to self-defence against continued Russian aggression.
Record numbers of people are now seeking protection in Europe and Ireland due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and, indeed, due to other conflicts across the world. In excess of 138,000 people from Ukraine and asylum seekers from elsewhere have arrived in Ireland since the start of 2022. To date, the Government has been providing more than 96,000 people with State-sourced and funded accommodation, between those people who have fled the war in Ukraine and the approximately 27,400 people in international protection accommodation. Irish people know more than anyone the importance of helping people in need and our communities have made people welcome. I thank them for this. Many of the new arrivals are now working in areas like healthcare, retail and tourism or are volunteering in their communities. Ireland does have a duty to offer shelter to people fleeing the war and persecution and we assess each person in a fair and firm manner. We are fair and welcoming to those who come here legally or need protection but we must also be firm with those who do not and to anyone who seeks to abuse our system.
This is an important point to make. Irish people are extraordinarily fair, decent and humane. We are a country known for our céad míle fáilte. Irish people, however, also like a degree of common sense and to know there are rules, that they are in place and that they are being followed. It is important to show in the weeks and months ahead to the people of this country that we have a rules-based migration system and to look at every way we can to improve the efficiency in respect of how we implement this system.
The high number of arrivals has required a crisis response and I very much appreciate this has had an impact on local communities. We must try now to move away from this emergency approach in terms of what accommodation is available and the overreliance on the private market, to a much more sustainable longer-term plan. As I said, this needs to be founded on common sense, on respect for communities and on better communication. The Government is also working collectively to ensure that we counter misinformation and disinformation on migration, and this is important. This country is the better for migration. This country benefits from migration. Of that, there is no doubt.
Migration remains a core concern across the EU. It is a regular discussion point at European Councils. A comprehensive approach is required that deals with all aspects of the challenge. This idea that this small country can go it alone in this area is fantasy-land stuff. We must work at an EU level and with our EU counterparts. We must look at how we can strengthen the EU's borders and solidarity within the European Union and we must work much more closely with countries of origin and transit. I genuinely and passionately believe the EU asylum and migration pact will ensure greater co-operation at EU level on migration, because Ireland believes Europe must deal with the shared challenge of migration through collective effort. This is important. So many people who come to our country have what we call secondary movements. This pact will provide Ireland with a really important opportunity to be able to address this issue. I fear how we would make progress on this issue without the support of a European-wide approach to migration.
Despite considerable challenges in the external environment, we are making real progress when it comes to new homes and apartments being built all over the country. More houses were built last year in Ireland than in any year since 2008. You would not often think it given the debates in this place, but let there be no doubt about it. More homes were built in Ireland last year than in any year since 2008, and data on the number of new homes completed in quarter 1 of this year is due for release tomorrow. I expect that to continue to show very strong momentum. The future pipeline is also very positive. We had the quarter 1 update of Housing for All launched this morning, and it shows that for the first three months of this year, we have seen almost 12,000 new homes commenced. This is an increase of 63% on the same period last year. These are real numbers and real homes. They are being built and this is not happening by accident. It is happening because of the interventions we have made in terms of trying to create the right environment for supply and in terms of trying to reduce barriers and costs when it comes to supply.
Affordability initiatives under the Housing All policy are also having a real impact by giving people some of their own money back through the help-to-buy scheme to help them to put it towards a deposit and helping to bridge the gap between what people can save and the cost of a house through the first homes scheme. This is important. Yesterday, we had five memorandums on housing at Cabinet. One was on student accommodation, and we will have news in relation to that tomorrow. One concerned vacancy and how we can do more in relation to an action plan around putting vacant stock back into use. One concerned what I believe is a very important initiative to extend the waiver of development contributions and Uisce Éireann charges to make it cheaper for builders to build new homes. This is a measure that without doubt has had an impact. If anyone doubts this, I can provide them with the county-by-county breakdown as to how many homes or apartments in their county or constituency have benefited already from the scheme. The idea that it would have come to an immediate end this April, when we believe there is potential for it to do more between now and the year, would have been foolish. I am pleased, therefore, that we have done this. The fifth memorandum yesterday was also to boost funding for another initiative that is also working really well, called the first homes scheme. This has now really taken off and it is helping people to bridge the gap, as I said, between their mortgages, their deposits and the price of a new house. We topped this scheme up this week by another €40 million from the Government, matched by another €40 million from financial institutions, bringing it to a total of an extra €80 million. Yesterday at Cabinet, therefore, between those two announcements and the student housing, we invested more than €300 million more of taxpayers' money, that is, more than a quarter of a billion euro more of taxpayers' money, into housing supply and assisting with affordability.
We are also committed to improving the rental market by providing greater security, affordability and viability to tenants and landlords into the future. We have done this in a number of ways. We will have legislation shortly on short-term lets. This is an important aspect. I would like to work with all political parties in this Dáil and Seanad to get this legislation passed by the summer recess in order that we can have certainty about short-term lets and what is appropriate for the tourism sector. What should not be a short-term let should be a long-term let and should be available as part of housing stock. We have also, obviously, put in place the renters' tax credit. I would like to see this increase further in the years ahead because it gives a little bit of help with the cost of rent, which, therefore, might make it a little bit easier for people to save towards a mortgage. We will have an overall review of the rental market and this is due later this year too.
The number of people accessing emergency accommodation remains a serious concern for the Government and for society. The matter has been given absolute priority. This is evidenced by the fact that we have invested €242 million into homeless services in budget 2024. This funding will ensure that local authorities can provide homelessness prevention services and emergency accommodation and other services to ensure people can exit homelessness and get into tenancies as quickly as possible. I do need to say that in any honest debate around homelessness now we must have an honest debate about the migration impact too because around 45% of people in emergency accommodation are non-Irish citizens. We are, I suppose, seeing the impact of two major societal challenges, housing and homelessness and migration, somewhat interacting as well. To have a joined-up conversation, we need to look at all the aspects involved and begin to have an understanding of the composition of homeless numbers and the various policy levers that may be available to us as a Government and society to address the issue.
The climate action unit of my Department drives implementation of our ambitious climate agenda, including by co-chairing the climate action delivery board and reporting on the implementation of the climate action plan. We continue to witness record temperatures, wildfires, floods, prolonged droughts and extreme weather events, resulting in the tragic loss of life and livelihoods.
We know that much more of this and worse is in store if we fail to dramatically reduce emissions at a global level. I will be honest about this. Climate action is not a political ideology and climate change is not something any political party dreamt up or wished for. It is the major emergency facing this planet but how we deal with it matters and we do not deal with it by lecturing people or finger wagging. We deal with it by helping people transition in their home, workplace and farm and we have to do a lot more of this together to get us to where we need from a societal and an economic point of view and harness the potential for new green jobs and huge opportunities. I think of renewable energy as one such area. It is essential that we continue to build on the foundations we have tried to lay as to how we reimagine and reinvent parts of industry and society.
In December, the Government published a draft update to the climate action plan. This will guide our efforts and form the basis of how we implement the challenging but urgently needed changes to so many parts of our lives. I do hope we can get to a point in this House where every time we discuss climate action, we do not think it just involves talking about farmers and what farmers must do. There are very encouraging signs regarding how agriculture is making the transition in this country and the fall in emissions from agriculture. We need to make sure this does not become a conversation about whether you are on the side of the farmers or the side of the planet. The farmers are on the side of the planet. They just want Government to help them get to where they need to get to and I am very determined that we do that.
I will briefly update the committee on the work of the child poverty and well-being programme office in the Department. This is a really important initiative commenced by my predecessor that works to prioritise actions across government in areas that will have the greatest impact on children and families experiencing poverty. The office's initial programme plan, which is called From Poverty to Potential, was published last year. The programme builds on six key areas identified by Government that we believe have the potential to bring about significant changes for families and children. Breaking the Cycle: New Measures in Budget 2024 to Reduce Child Poverty and Promote Well-being was published in November. The report outlines new and increased budget spending across 12 Departments and reveals how the new budget focus is accelerating and deepening our collective ambition for children. The idea that child poverty or the policy response to addressing child poverty resides in any Department is clearly outdated and ill-advised. The purpose of this unit and the Cabinet committee is for all of us to stress-test and challenge ourselves to see what we can do within our own Departments, organisations and agencies to play a positive role in addressing child poverty and promoting child well-being. We will have the first national summit on child poverty and well-being on 23 May. This is a pivotal moment where we can take stock of progress and the challenge ahead and try to shape the agenda for future action.
I want the Government to improve its commitment to people with disabilities. I want us to work to empower them and provide greater independence in accessing the services they choose and enhance their ability to tailor the services required to meet their needs and plans for the future. This is why, on becoming Taoiseach, I reconfigured Cabinet committees to ensure there was a greater focus on disability issues. We now have the Cabinet committee on children, education and disability. This will oversee our programme for Government commitments in the area of disability but will also have a strong focus on the forthcoming national disability strategy. The first meeting of that committee was held this week. It will meet again in two weeks time.
Through the work of the Cabinet committee on health, we will continue to invest in our health services. It oversees the progress of health reforms, including Sláintecare, the reform of public health and health system preparedness for future health threats. We are committed to expanding the core capacity of our acute hospitals. That means more doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals and acute hospital beds. Again, it is worth saying that we have added more than 1,000 permanent hospital beds since 2020. We have also increased the total number of people working in the public health sector by more than 26,000 since the beginning of 2020. This includes 1,000 more hospital consultants and 8,000 more nurses and midwives.
We are now seeing waiting lists fall for the second year in a row. I do not say that from a place of complacency. They are still too high. Of that there is no doubt but not many countries are seeing their waiting lists fall after Covid. If we look at the North or England, we can see that this is not happening. We have seen waiting lists fall in this jurisdiction for two years in a row. We are now trying to look at Sláintecare wait times because Government and Opposition parties in this House agreed that Sláintecare was the way forward. Sláintecare basically sets wait times. You should not wait longer than ten weeks for some things and you should not wait longer than 12 weeks for others. We should be measured against the progress on reaching those Sláintecare wait targets.
We have also made a lot of progress together on trying to make healthcare more affordable. Hospital charges have been removed, there has been a very significant widening of eligibility for free GP care to most of the population and the cost of medicine has been reduced. There are still enormous challenges but it is important to acknowledge the significant amount of work being done in that area.
Provision in our Department's Estimates has been made for the staffing requirements and the non-pay cost to support the independent Covid pandemic evaluation. This will be a comprehensive evaluation of how our country managed Covid-19 and will provide an opportunity to learn lessons from our experience in dealing with the pandemic. It will include a review of the whole-of-government and wider societal response to the pandemic, how we might do better and how we might be in a stronger position if another pandemic or other similar type of event was to occur. I believe it needs to include consideration of our health service response, including our hospitals, communities and nursing homes, along with the wider economic and social response. Following consultation with Opposition parties and stakeholders, it is my intention to engage with Government colleagues on this and bring terms of reference to Government shortly.
The return of the power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland is hugely important. It has brought renewed hope, and I think there is palpable hope, about what can be achieved through the Good Friday Agreement. This was reflected in the 27th plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council, which took place on 8 April. This was very positive and well-attended and the warmth of political relationships was evident. I look forward to seeing the sectoral meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council resume. On my first full day as Taoiseach, which happened to be on the 26th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, I spoke by phone with First Minister Michelle O'Neill and Deputy First Minister Emma Little-Pengelly. I told them of my commitment to the Government's role as co-guarantor of that agreement and that I look forward to working closely with them. I expect to meet them towards the end of next week.
On the same day, I had a very positive conversation with UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak in which we both acknowledged the depth and breadth of the British-Irish relationship and the value we both attach to it. On 15 April, I addressed the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly and welcomed the growing opportunities for North-South co-operation, including in infrastructure, research, healthcare, innovation and tourism - some of the issues we discussed in depth at the North-South Ministerial Council the week before. An important way we pursue that is through the shared island initiative. This is part of our Government's commitment to engage with all communities to build consensus around a shared future underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement.
In February, the Government announced unprecedented funding of around €1 billion for shared island investment priorities. This includes funding for the A5 upgrade, the redevelopment of Casement Park, investment in a renewed visitor experience at the Battle of the Boyne site, the introduction of an hourly frequency rail service between Dublin and Belfast and moving ahead with the construction of the landmark Narrow Water bridge to link the Mourne Mountains in County Down with the Cooley Peninsula in County Louth. These unprecedented investments are in addition to the already near €250 million we have allocated for more than 15 major projects over the past three years, including the Ulster Canal restoration and something about which I am very passionate, namely, funding for the new building to expand access to higher education in Derry at the Magee campus of Ulster University. I hope these commitments affirm the strength of our commitment to working with the new Executive and institutions in Northern Ireland towards a shared island.
The shared island youth forum has an important role to play as many young people on this island were not born when the Good Friday Agreement was agreed, let alone old enough to vote in the referendum. It is really important that we do not exclude their voices from what the future of this island looks like. The establishment of the shared island youth forum, which I was honoured to launch last September, is a really important development. It brings together 80 young people aged from 18 to 25 from all different backgrounds and traditions to set out their vision and values for a shared future. I believe it is meeting in Belfast on Friday to discuss equality issues. This is part of a broader shared island dialogue series that has been very beneficial.
Three of the four citizens' assemblies referenced in the briefing and committed to in the programme for Government have now been completed. The relevant Departments are drafting detailed responses to the Dublin Citizens' Assembly and the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss. An Oireachtas joint committee on drug use is expected to shortly commence examining the most recent report from the Citizens' Assembly on Drug Use. With the co-operation of parties in this House, I would like to establish that committee with haste so its work can get under way. The establishment of a fourth citizens' assembly on the future of education will be a matter for consideration by the Government in due course.
The 2024 Estimate also includes an allocation of almost €2.5 million for the National Economic and Social Council for its work on providing strategic advice on economic, social, environmental and sustainable development issues. Its current work programme is focused on four issues - housing, accounting for nature, good jobs and shared island. I welcome the opportunity to discuss these with colleagues.
I thank the Taoiseach for his presentation. It was a good chance to go back over the budget and talk about priorities.
I thank him for the update and the focus on the various issues he brought to us today as well as the outline of the past couple of weeks in the role. I have a few initial comments on some of the issues he raised. He mentioned the Covid inquiry at the start and in your speech as well. I think it is fine, we can certainly have an inquiry and, as you set out, it is about getting the terms of reference right. This is about learning for the future and being able to put a plan in place for the future. I do not want us to be in here at committee meetings trying to catch somebody out or find somebody out. Having worked in various Departments, that is just going to foil any future plans and any initiative. Everybody worked to their best ability. We all had frustrations with different parts of it, everyone did, because we were following new rules for everybody. It has to be about learning and putting in place changes for the future, recommendations, a quick way of making decisions, process and a focus on that as opposed to trying to find someone to blame. I just hope we get the tone right around that or else it will be a wasted exercise. It is all very fine to look back a few years on and make comments on decisions that were made at the time. In terms of the tone, it would be important for that to come across in the terms of reference, that we all do our job here. I appreciate that everyone including the Opposition has a job to do. I am not trying to prevent any of that but it is just about achieving the best results. That is what needs to be done, in my view.
I welcome the announcement around housing this week, certainly in relation to the waivers. All of us are committed to housing, some in different ways, and that is fine. I do believe that anywhere we can help reduce the cost and speed up supply, that is what it is about. Certainly the waiving of development levies is part of that. I am conscious the Taoiseach said it is temporary and it is important that it is temporary, to drive activity, so those who have planning permissions put them to use. It will be really worthwhile. We can see the figures are well us this year and last because of that change along with all the others as well. The Taoiseach outlined all the different policies there and they are all helping the housing supply. We are often missing the conversation in this House that if we are to achieve the numbers of housing that we all want, which is up to 40,000 and beyond that when we can, it means everybody playing their part. It is not just the taxpayer and the Government setting aside more than €5 billion a year for housing. We need others to spend the guts of €10 billion on top of that. That is why we have to have a lot of initiatives to encourage all levels of supply. If we do not do that, we will not get the overall expenditure we need in this area. I welcome that.
I know there are parties here that want to eliminate the help-to-buy scheme and so on. The whole logic of that scheme was to put people in a position that they would be able to get a deposit to buy a house. That goes back to 2016 and 2017, when there was nobody really building starter homes. Building had started again but it was houses for €500,000 or €600,000 plus. It was the next house up. There was nobody delivering houses in the €250,000 to €350,000 bracket. Because the customer was not in a position to do that, was not in funds, the help-to-buy scheme enables people to put a deposit together to go in and buy a house. The knock-on effect is that others are building the house for them. If we take away all these schemes, it will hit supply. We can argue until the cows come home about whether it affects the overall cost. That is a separate argument. To me it is about getting the activity going, getting the houses built, get people building the houses and make sure people are in a position to buy them. I am glad the help to buy scheme has been extended. I know the Taoiseach has committed to going well beyond it in the years ahead, too. The other schemes also are all about enabling people to buy houses. There are a number of schemes that place many people in a position to buy a house today that they would not have been able to buy ten or 15 years ago. I have to dispute this argument that I constantly hear about home ownership. The statistics are not saying there is a massive reduction in home ownership in this country. Compared to Europe, we are probably going the opposite way. There has been a change in maybe 1% in home ownership in the past ten or 15 years, not 25% as the impression is given here. We are all about home ownership as well as giving people the choice and the option to rent from the State, maybe through a social home or an affordable housing scheme, or to rent privately. We know that the levels are too high but the only way we can address that is to come in with more supply. Eventually these rents will come down. In the meantime, the Taoiseach is talking about the supports for renters which are important too. Supply is the key. I am glad the figures are all going the right way. We need to keep a steady drive on that over the next couple of years and commit to some of these schemes for a long number of years. If we do not, it will affect supply. That is really important as well.
I do not want to go on for too long. I welcome the commitment to enterprise and jobs. We are in danger in this country, listening to various conversations, of taking where we are for granted in respect of job opportunities and job creation. It is really important that we protect the jobs we have today and grow new ones, support new companies with new ideas and innovations, new start-ups and all that. This goes back to the Taoiseach's previous brief in higher education and research. It is essential that we commit to that through all the various innovation and science strategies that are in place. I listen to commentary in here that is not pro-business or pro-jobs. That is a dangerous place to go. I am glad the Taoiseach is very firmly setting out that we are pro-jobs and pro-economy. We want to be able to maintain where we are today and grow it. We want jobs in the economy to be able to fund all the changes as well. It is important that we do not take it for granted that, as a small country, we are creating the jobs we are creating. There are so many people out there doing that, hundreds of thousands of small and large businesses, people working very hard. Our job as a Government and in here is to support that, enable it, make it easier and assist in difficult times as well. It is vital not to take them for granted. We can see how quick jobs can slip away if we do not constantly focus on that as well.
My last comment is on the commitment for people with disabilities of all ages. We will agree that this is an area where we want to do more and we all need to do more. I can see the money being set aside over the years to do it but we are not getting the impact we should be getting for those families. Day in, day out, all of us as Members are meeting these people and families who need extra assistance. It is very frustrating that there is funding in place, there are announcements, but the issue is the follow-through. When a Taoiseach takes responsibility and says this is a focus we are going to bring to this through the Department of the Taoiseach, that is when we get the real change that is needed here. I really welcome his commitment to that area. We will see some positive change. Having money is one issue but actually making it happen is another. It is about listening to the people who need it. I am looking forward to seeing great changes there and I am glad to hear the Taoiseach's remarks on that area today.
The Taoiseach and his officials are very welcome. I raised a couple of issues with him. One is that his Department has responsibility for commissions of investigation. I think there are two under his control at present. One is the NAMA commission and the other is the IBRC commission. I am conscious that the IBRC commission has concluded. It delivered its report in July 2022. Where are we with the NAMA commission? The Taoiseach said in his submission that it was due to report by the end of March 2024. I am conscious, in fairness to that commission, that the judge who was appointed to it died two years ago and there was a change; a solicitor took over. Just from the point of view of an awareness as to when a final report is likely, do we have any information for the committee on that?
I do indeed. Should I respond to Deputy English in a minute?
Whatever way the Taoiseach wants to do it.
I will come back to Deputy English in a minute. To Deputy O'Callaghan's direct question, my understanding is that in February of this year, the commission submitted its 17th interim report, which noted that it had prepared a draft final report based on the evidence it had received. It also noted that the commission had commenced the process of circulating the draft final report to relevant persons, including a number of persons who reside outside the jurisdiction and that the parties circulated the draft final report were notified by the commission of the time allowed. The interim report also noted that time would be required for the commission to consider all submission it received before completing its final report. Long story short, in view of the apparent advanced stage of the investigation, having fully considered the matter, the then Taoiseach decided to grant the commission's request for an extension of its timeframe for reporting until the end of July and arranged for publication of the interim report. While the commission is fully independent, the end of July is the expectation.
I thank the Taoiseach. I am conscious as well that both commissions of investigation have taken seven years. It is something that we should reflect on as policy-makers and Members of the Oireachtas. When we call for commissions of investigation, they are very well-intentioned calls. The objective of all Members of the Dáil or Seanad when we call for commissions is that we can get a quick response to issues of urgent public importance. I am conscious and wonder if the Taoiseach is aware that in many instances, delivery on commissions of investigation takes a considerable period. Does the Taoiseach have any comment in respect of that?
I do, actually. I am thinking back to my time as Minister of Health and the CervicalCheck scandal emerged. I recall there was an initial call in these Houses for a commission of investigation, for very good reasons. It was seen as a mechanism to establish the truth. We engaged a lot with women and patients affected. I am going from my memory now, and I do not wish to say there was cross-party consensus, but I think there was in the end, that actually the Scally process could achieve the answers that people were looking for. The Department of Health commissioned an independent expert in Dr. Gabriel Scally.
It is fair to say he won the confidence of the women who were impacted and the confidence of the Houses of the Oireachtas. He delivered an excellent report with excellent recommendations. My gut answer on this is that we need to be careful that we do not just reach for a commission of investigation as the default position. We must consider whether there are other ways. Bringing in an independent expert who, crucially, has the confidence of policymakers and of those impacted can, at times, be a more effective way of doing business.
Deputy English referred to the pandemic review process. I am sure the Taoiseach is concerned about calling it a Covid inquiry but, certainly, it would be beneficial to have some type of Covid review process. The Government is committed to doing so. I agree with Deputy English that there is no intention on the part of any Member of the Oireachtas to turn it into a sort of show trial or try to criticise people for decisions that were made during a very difficult period. It would be beneficial to look at questions such as whether it was the right decision to close schools at the time. That is not an issue anyone should be fearful of a review body considering and reporting on. People do not know whether it was the correct decision but we have had more time now to appraise its outcomes. The Taoiseach said he will bring terms of reference to the Government shortly. When does he expect the review process to commence? What type of process is he considering? Will it be an orthodox judge-led inquiry or is he thinking of something different from what is usually done?
This is a very important question. As a newly appointed Taoiseach, I am very committed to an independent Covid evaluation. I would go so far as to say it is essential. I am very proud of a lot of the work done by a lot of people in the public service, the health service, etc. at that time. However, I am also absolutely clear that we need a look-back. The approach of Deputies English and O'Callaghan is right. My understanding is that there was an excellent meeting with Opposition parties and other stakeholders. I certainly do not speak for any other party but I think there is an emerging consensus as to the way we can take this forward.
The only reason I am not putting a specific timeframe on when I will bring the proposals to the Cabinet is that I need to engage with the Tánaiste, who is Deputy O'Callaghan's party leader, and with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. It is something I would like to move on quite quickly. There is an allocation for that purpose in my Department's Vote for this year. It is something that should happen quite quickly, while thoughts are fresh in people's minds.
Without getting ahead of a Government decision, we are talking about the idea of a panel of independent people. I certainly have not made a decision yet as to the composition of any such panel. A membership with a range of expertise would be useful because, as I said in my opening remarks, the approach we should take is a whole-of-government and whole-of-society approach. Obviously, there will be a health aspect, including important and legitimate questions around nursing home care, personal protective equipment, PPE, and other health decisions. There absolutely will also be a need for consideration, as the Deputy said, of the impact the decisions made had on children and education, including children with special educational needs and educational disadvantage. Consideration will also be needed of the impact on business and the economic rationale for decisions taken. I expect there will be good interactions in terms of how we look at the impact on the island of Ireland. The pandemic did not respect political jurisdiction. We can look at what worked well and what did not in that regard. There is a whole range of areas to consider. It would be very difficult to find one person with expertise in all of that. Therefore, a panel-type approach seems to be the way to go. I would like to move quite quickly on that.
Does the Taoiseach agree with me that politicians who made the crucial decisions at the time should not be fearful of a review body recommending that some of those decisions might, and perhaps should, have been made differently? That would not be a criticism of the judgment calls made by people at the time.
I entirely agree. Let me be blunt. I was Minister for Health at the start of the Covid pandemic. I am very proud of some of the decisions that were made. I am also very much aware that as I look back on some decisions, such as the advice on the use of face masks and antigen tests, there absolutely is no doubt that there are learnings and lessons and things that might have been done differently.
Of course.
A review is an essential process that nobody should fear. It should be embraced. We will do our country some service if we get it right.
The final issue I want to raise is migration. I agree with the Taoiseach that migration has been very good for this country. In fact, we sometimes do not give ourselves praise for handling well issues with which other countries have had difficulty. We have handled immigration particularly well in this country over the past 25 years, since it began to happen. Before then, it was something that did not really happen in Ireland. We all recognise that it has become a bigger political issue in the past two years or so. My assessment is that the reason it has become a bigger political issue is fairly transparent. It is because the Irish people have been extraordinarily generous in taking in people who are fleeing the war in Ukraine and others seeking international protection. As a result of that, the numbers have increased very significantly over the past two years. With that, we have found it extremely difficult to provide accommodation for everyone coming here. That is the general background.
I do not know whether the Taoiseach passes through Mount Street when he is travelling in from Wicklow in the morning. There is a very significant issue at present outside the International Protection Office, IPO, building. At one stage, there were 150 to 180 tents there. It is a really difficult situation for the people who live and work in the area. Like all those people, I am extremely sympathetic to the people coming to Ireland seeking international protection and having to live in tents. However, is it acceptable that we allow a situation whereby people can just pitch up tents on a busy city street?
No, it is not acceptable. There are serious questions to answer as to how this was allowed to happen. I do not say that to be overly critical but the fact is it is not acceptable. There are rules that need to be followed in every circumstance, even in an emergency. We must have a rules-based migration system. We have to be able to do better than allowing the situation that has happened on Mount Street. There is very specific action being taken, almost as we speak, to try to find alternative accommodation for the people there. However, there is a broader issue in terms of safety, including public safety, that seriously needs to be addressed. There is a role in this for the Garda, Dublin City Council and, of course, for the Government as well.
I do not want to broaden the Deputy's question too much but we need a debate in Ireland around migration policy that is broader than just a conversation about accommodation capacity. There are very serious issues we need to look to address. The job of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is just - I do not use "just" in a flippant way - to provide accommodation for those who come to our country. There is a broader issue around processing times and how we interact with the borders of Europe and the common travel area. The Minister for Justice spoke yesterday about the many people now coming over the porous Border. She spoke about how deportations, returns policies and secondary movements operate. There is a lot of good work going on in this space. We have now reached a point in Ireland where we start the conversation from the accommodation place, whereas we need to start it from the aspect of the enforcement of the rules-based system. I just offer that as a comment.
It is a fair comment. The reason the accommodation starting point is used a lot is that people see, with the situation like that on Mount Street, that there is a great and demonstrable difficulty in providing accommodation. The numbers of people seeking international protection are increasing significantly. I would say there will be 20,000 applicants this year. Does the Taoiseach agree with that?
If the current trend continues, that will be right.
It looks that way. At some stage, as well as frantically trying to provide accommodation for the people coming in and joining the application process, there is a legitimate entitlement to look at the other end of the equation to see what steps we can take to try to reduce the numbers coming here. People may be offended by that statement but I say it because it is not fair on the individuals who come here and have their international protection application granted if they have to deal with very many others coming in whose applications are refused.
I was slightly disappointed yesterday that no other countries were added to the list of safe countries, as we are entitled to do under section 72 of the relevant Act. Is this something that will be looked at by the Minister or the Taoiseach?
Yes, it is. In recent weeks and months, there have been a number of additions to the list. The formula the Minister came up with and brought to Cabinet yesterday is an intelligent way to proceed. It possibly is more agile than just naming one or two countries. It allows for accelerated processing for whichever country is number one on the list at any time. At the moment, that is Nigeria. If it is a different country in three, four or five months from now, it allows for an immediate faster processing time for applications from that country. There is agility and flexibility in the proposal the Minister has brought forward. That is good.
As for what the Deputy has said, if anyone takes offence to it, I certainly do not. I think it is logical. This country wants to help people who have a legitimate right to come here and the best way of being in a position to do that is to make sure those who do not have a legitimate right to come here get a quicker answer. The two are absolutely tied together and we have to be honest about that. We can best help those who are seeking humanitarian assistance by making sure we have faster answers and faster returns policies and deportations for those who do not. Of course, there are other ways to come to Ireland as well and we need to broaden that conversation. We have skills shortages, and there are work permits and other ways for people to come to Ireland for economic reasons. Indeed, they are very welcome.
One of the interesting points the Minister for Justice made yesterday was that more than 80% of the people seeking international protection in Ireland are coming over the Border from the United Kingdom. That presents a very challenging circumstance, because if people arrive into our ports, there are circumstances where we can have some level of control in respect of that. Are there any measures that could be implemented in order that we can assess that? Maybe there are not. Is there an agreement we could enter into with the United Kingdom for the purpose of trying to ensure these applications will be processed in a more efficient way?
We have to do more in this space. This was not always the way and, in fact, this is a relatively recent phenomenon whereby the trends have changed. There has been a lot of focus on the airports and I am pleased to say a lot of that focus and resource directed towards checks at the airports has yielded positive results in terms of a reduction in the number of people arriving without documents, increased fines and a greater Garda presence, which has been good. Now, the number of people coming through the airports as a percentage is significantly diminished, which means we now have to have a focus on other areas. There is already collaboration between the PSNI and the Garda and, as Taoiseach, I intend to scrutinise that as to whether there is an ability to do more there. A structure is in place between the UK and Ireland relating to the common travel area and a group, including justice officials, oversees that and is due to meet shortly. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, is due to meet her counterpart, the British Home Secretary, shortly, possibly as soon as next week.
It is, as the Deputy said, a very sensitive issue. We are very proud of the fact there is no hard border on the island of Ireland, which we all worked very hard to ensure, and it is beyond doubt that we should maintain that. Even within that construct, however, there has to be an ability to work and collaborate better between the UK and Ireland and between the PSNI and the Garda.
Fáilte roimh an Taoiseach. To begin with his set-up in the Department, does he operate a private email address?
I have a private email address but I do not use it for Government business. I have a Department of the Taoiseach email address.
The Taoiseach has never shared that address, therefore, with anybody seeking to set up a meeting, communicate with him on policy or seek information on anything, including officials within his Department.
No.
In respect of the Taoiseach's awareness of the processes for freedom of information, FOI, within his Department, he will obviously be familiar with them given he has been a Minister for the past eight years. I assume that, like all of us, he is contacted not just by email anymore but also by text messages, WhatsApp and so on, and that some of that would fall into Government business. Is that correct?
I am very aware of the FOI rules in terms of how they apply to communications regardless of how you receive them, and that if a communication covered under FOI is received by, for example, text message, a record of that needs to be created.
I presume people do contact the Taoiseach by WhatsApp and text message, including officials, or is he saying his officials contact him only by email?
I am only 15 days in the job, so I am trying to think whether I have received any text messages from officials so far. I do not think I have but-----
The Taoiseach is a Minister. He is used to officials contacting him by text message and to members of the public perhaps having his details from different arrangements or engagements, maybe even in his life previous to this, where they might send a WhatsApp message looking to meet him or asking for a discussion.
Yes, and if that falls within the scope of the FOI, I am aware of my obligations.
Has it been standard practice for the Taoiseach to create records of his text messages and communications through social media apps?
I do not believe I have conducted Government business through social media apps.
I refer to text messages, WhatsApp communications and so on.
Sorry. I would have records of Government text messages and the like.
Has the Taoiseach sent them all to the Department?
In my current role?
Yes, or in the Taoiseach's previous role.
In my previous role, I think I would still have access to them, and in my current role, I am not sure whether I have yet received any, but I am aware of my obligations.
Is it the Taoiseach's position that it is only when communications have been requested that he will forward them to the Department?
I think that is correct. From memory, when an FOI request comes into my Department, and I believe this is standard for any Minister or anyone else who falls within the scope of the FOI Act, you are obligated to check whether you have any relevant records-----
That is not the case. The reason I raise this is that it falls under the Taoiseach’s Department, but also that the previous Taoiseach deleted records in the past from WhatsApp and, therefore, they were outside the reach of FOI. Deleting a FOI document or record, whether it is a text message or on WhatsApp, is an offence if it falls into that category of communication.
I might just inform the Taoiseach of the central policy unit guidance note 24, which was issued in 2015. It refers to information held on non-official systems, email accounts and devices. It states official information that is subject to FOI and is transmitted via non-official systems or external devices such as email or a mobile phone is subject to the provisions of the FOI Act, as the Taoiseach acknowledged. Where non-official systems are used, the employee must ensure a copy is made available when the transmission is made in the first instance.
Circular 09/2019 goes further and sets out the requirements relating to the use of private email and other private messaging services to conduct official Government business, stating:
Any communications relating to official government business issued or received through a private email account or other private messaging service must be forwarded from such account or service to an organisation issued email account or service as soon as is practicable.
I do not want to go too much into security information, but I operate from Government phones and Government devices and, therefore, I am very satisfied I am in full compliance. I take seriously what the Deputy said and I take seriously my obligations under the FOI Act.
The Taoiseach feels he does not have to send on those documents.
I think that from what the Deputy read out, although I do not have the benefit of having a copy of it in front of me, he referred to cases where I am using a device that is not a Government device but is a private device or private email. I am saying I conduct my business through Government devices.
No, I referred to any "official government business issued or received through a private email account". A private email account could be accessed through a Government phone or, indeed, "[an]other private messaging service"-----
I do not conduct Government business through my private email accounts, and if I did receive an email from, for example-----
A private messaging service is a text message or WhatsApp message that the Taoiseach would receive on his Government phone, and the circular states that must be forwarded as soon as is practicable. It is not a case of when it has been asked for.
If I receive a query on Government business in my role as Taoiseach, I will forward that to my official systems. Therefore, it will become part of the records subject to FOI.
The Taoiseach has not done that so far, however.
I am trying to think whether, as Taoiseach, I have received anything------
I refer also to the Taoiseach's previous roles as Minister.
It did not happen very often, but if I got a meeting request, I would forward that request to my email and, therefore, it would exist with, for example, my private secretary. That would create a record. If the Deputy is referring to something specific-----
No, I just want to know how-----
I take my obligations seriously in this regard and I know they are serious obligations.
It is just that every time an FOI request is made, it appears that nobody communicates with Ministers by text message or WhatsApp-----
No, not me.
Indeed, on the other side, in the case of Leo Varadkar, where there was evidence the communication had happened, we found that the messages had been deleted.
I am certain text messages of mine have been released under FOI in both of my previous Departments.
Okay. I appreciate that regarding the obligation to create the record in the first instance.
In regard to the Taoiseach's own set-up, he has appointed a number of special advisers so far and I think all of them come from either a journalism or PR background.
They are not.
Which one does not have a public relations, PR, background or a journalism background, of the five who have been pointed so far?
I believe I have more than five. A number of them were there with the previous Taoiseach, and are still there, who are very much policy advisers. There are also people who have worked with me in previous roles on the policy side as opposed to the press side. There is therefore a combination of skills mix.
I was aware that five were appointed by the Taoiseach. All of those five were from a background of either journalism or PR. However, will the Taoiseach give us the detail as to the number of special advisers he has and also the plans for the number of special advisers he plans to have? I am very conscious he is new in the job so there may be changes afoot.
I want to provide the right information. I have two co-Chiefs of Staff; I have appointed five special advisers and a Government press secretary and assistant press secretary. I believe that is in line with if not below, in fact it is below, my predecessor’s number.
The Taoiseach has two co-Chiefs of Staff and five special advisers.
I have five special advisers and two press people.
All of this is publicly available. There are the old special advisers and then the Taoiseach’s own one. When I look at the former Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar's, staff, he had Brian Murphy, his Chief of Staff, and six others.
Yes, as well as a Government press secretary I would say.
The Government-----
I do not mean to be pedantic but I have checked that my number of advisers is in line with my predecessor's, in fact it may be below that number but it is certainly not excessive. I can provide the Deputy with a note.
No, I just want to go through this. As I said, this is the published list of special advisers to Ministers and Ministers of State in the 33rd Dáil. The previous Taoiseach has Brian Murphy, Philip O’Callaghan, Clare Mungovan, Bríd Murphy, Sarah O’Neill, Cliona Doyle and Matthew Lynch. So there were seven as named here.
He also had a Government press secretary who I do not think has been named there.
No, I have not named the Government press secretary. However, of those special advisers, how many does the Taoiseach have? Did he mention seven?
Yes.
Has the Taoiseach the same number as the former Taoiseach?
Yes, I believe so.
The Taoiseach told RTÉ that he planned to appoint a number of others.
I plan to appoint one other adviser post split in two, that is, two part-time, one on the economy and one on Northern Ireland.
What about the housing adviser?
I will come back on that. I would like to compare like with like. There are definitely other people who worked for the former Taoiseach who I have not heard the Deputy reference by name. I have not seen the list he has in front of him. In regard to housing, the person who continues to advise me on housing and to oversee the work on housing is Matthew Lynch. He did that for the previous Taoiseach as well. It is not-----
The other two mentioned here would fall under the Taoiseach’s category, they fall under the Chief Whip, namely Paula Melia and Denise Duffy. Are there others who are not on this list, of whom I should be aware?
Will the Deputy read the names again?
On the list are Brian Murphy, Deputy Secretary and Chief of Staff, Philip O’Callaghan; Clare Mungovan who works on policy; Bríd Murphy who works on digital public affairs; and Sarah O’Neill, Cliona Doyle and Matthew Lynch.
Did the Deputy name Jim D’Arcy?
I did not name Jim D’Arcy, no.
He may have been a part-time adviser. I know this is public information and I do not want to discuss people but that was one I noted.
Of those, the Taoiseach has seven at the moment. Is he retaining some of these in addition to those seven?
No.
No, so there will be seven special advisers, and he plans to appoint two other part-time special advisers. Is that correct?
Yes, and the Government press secretary is not included in that numbers the Deputy read out.
That is in addition to the Government press secretary. Will the Taoiseach come back with a note in regard to whether he is increasing the number of special advisers?
I will be very happy to do that.
Does the Taoiseach believe that he is increasing the number?
No, I believe it is in line with the number my predecessor had, but let me come back with a note because that is in my mind.
Is the Taoiseach going to have a housing special adviser?
I am not-----
He has loads of journalists. We can all agree on that. The Taoiseach has five with either a journalistic or PR background. We know his priorities in this. However, housing is the biggest issue.
I know the Deputy does not mean to be but I think it is slightly rude to the skill sets of some of the people to try to pigeonhole people into a narrative that he wishes to make. There are a number of people who may have worked in journalism or may have worked in public relations-----
They did.
They did and that is not a bad thing, by the way, to work in media.
I am not saying it is bad.
I am just saying that when there are five out of seven, with no housing special adviser-----
Deputy, they have-----
-----it speaks to the Taoiseach’s priorities, does it not?
No, because, just to be clear, we have a Minister for housing, we have a Minister of State for housing, we have advisers in housing. When you are in government-----
There is Government press secretary as well but that did not stop the Taoiseach from employing loads of journalists as advisers.
Many of those people have worked in the delivery of policy in a whole variety of different areas, including the Department of Health, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science; some worked for a previous Taoiseach, Enda Kenny. This idea that they are new to policymaking is something that I reject.
In regard to housing, when you are in government obviously you appoint political advisers on housing to the Department of Housing. There are advisers to the Minister for housing and to the Ministers of State in the Department. The job of Taoiseach is to co-ordinate the delivery of all of these. I do not believe any Taoiseach has ever had a line policy adviser with expertise on every single area of government.
Will the Taoiseach appoint an adviser on the economy? Will that be part time?
That is my hope, yes, similar to the way I believe the former Taoiseach, now Tánaiste may have done. I do not believe my predecessor had one. I see a benefit though.
Can I ask-----
Can I remind the Deputy it is time to finish up?
I will finish up on this. I appreciate that. One of the Cabinet sub-committees the Taoiseach oversees is on housing, which is a major issue in my own county and throughout the State. We have an additional issue that impacts on the housing crisis in County Donegal, which is defective blocks. The Government’s scheme is simply not working. There were 1,300 people at a meeting, packed to the rafters, out on the street, unable to get into the venue because the venue was not big enough. We do not have a venue big enough in County Donegal to host the number of families that would tell the Taoiseach the scheme is not working if he was there. This is placing serious pressure on families. We have crumbling walls and buildings. However, mental health has also broken down, families have broken apart as a result of this and some people are no longer with us as a result of the issue of defective blocks.
The penny is not dropping with the Government. The Taoiseach talks about a 100% scheme and so forth. There would not be a single person in that room – indeed at a different meeting in County Mayo about 500 people turned up – if there was a 100% scheme. These individuals know it does not work for them. Yesterday, we had State apologies relating to a case where the State did wrong. I do not wish to equate what happened in that case, which was absolutely horrific, and how the State and successive Governments treated that issue, but we have crumbling lives right across the west coast and elsewhere. These people need Government support. They need the Government to walk with them at this time, not face them down. If they were here, sitting in front of the Taoiseach, they would tell him that is what they face with the Government. The Taoiseach will rightly say that this is a huge scheme, a huge amount of money, all of which is true. However, if it does not work, it does not work. The Taoiseach did not have an interaction with this scheme until now but he sat at Cabinet and signed off on it. He has seen the protests. He had his fingers on this. This scheme has to change really urgently. I am making this point to the Taoiseach, and I will take him around houses in County Donegal, invite him to sit down with people who are in their 60s and talk to them about where they will get the €60,000 or €70,000 that he expects them to get, in order to rebuild their homes.
We can talk about families who are living in caravans. A mother who talked to me and my party leader showed us the tablets that she takes every day because of her mental health. This is a woman who used to have her own business. She was an entrepreneur in Donegal. Her child is studying for a State examination. She talked about how, after dropping her children to school, she drives 3 km to a little lake where she sits and cries until she gets the strength again to pull herself together because she does not want her daughters to see the way that their mum feels. It is unbelievable, what is happening. These individuals need to see light at the end of the tunnel. I am telling the Taoiseach now that this scheme is not working and it will have to be fixed by somebody. We are committed to a 100% scheme and that is fine. I am not trying to make politics out of this issue because I know these individuals and some of them are my relations. It is horrifying, what is happening. These houses are going to collapse. I was at a house a fortnight ago and the blocks crumbled in my hand. There are kids in those houses. One family is demolishing their house at the minute. The individual sat on the roof and when he put his foot to the chimney it just fell. Why did it fall? If fell because it has defective blocks and is like Weetabix. A gale or gust of wind could do the same thing and a child could be underneath it and we would all be talking about the terrible tragedy. We know this is happening, the houses are unsafe, the scheme does not work and the Government needs to get its act together. I will leave it at that.
I accept the sincerity with which the Deputy has raised this issue and the pressure that it puts on people he represents in County Donegal. I acknowledge that Deputy Conway-Walsh gave me a document on this last week, from the Mayo perspective, and I commit to looking at the documentation I have been given. I do not want to reopen the debate but, as has been said, we did put a scheme in place with a very large sum of money, which I genuinely did expect to bring about some good for the people in the counties the Deputies represent. I will certainly look at the information that has been sent me and come back to Deputy Conway-Walsh.
I appreciate that, Taoiseach. Obviously I gave the document to the Taoiseach last week after the meeting in Mayo. As we speak, one of the longest-serving members of the Mayo Pyrite Action Group in Erris, where the pyrite defective block was first noticed, on the Atlantic Ocean, is having her house demolished. She has the saddest of stories and I know she will not mind me saying that her name is Dorothy Keane. Her husband has ended up in hospital and that is all linked to what the family has suffered over those years. I would be there with her today if I did not need to be here in the Dáil. She is just one case. Dorothy, Josephine Murphy and others who are not with us today have fought and fought. I am not going to go down that road here but I ask the Taoiseach to sit down with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The positive thing is all of those things can be fixed in a very short space of time. People have given the solutions to all of the issues that have arisen. We do not want to waste billions of euro on assets that are not going to do what they are supposed to do to let people get on with their lives and rebuild their homes. They are not going to do that. We do not want to waste money either, but we want to ensure that these people can rebuild their homes, which is all they want.
Deputy Doherty is right in what he has said. None of these people in counties Donegal or Mayo would be in those halls and hotels to point out what they need changed in the scheme if they did not have to be there. If there is one thing Deputy Harris can do as Taoiseach, it is to, please, make those changes with the Minister for housing and let us all get on with our lives. Of course, it should never have happened. We talked about inquiries earlier. There must be a public inquiry into what has happened, why so many have had to suffer and why so many childhoods have been robbed, particularly from children who live along the western seaboard. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that happens.
Will the valproate inquiry come under the remit of the Taoiseach's Department? As the Taoiseach will know from being Minister for Health, valproate under the brand name Epilim was prescribed for use by pregnant women while there was mounting evidence, spanning more than 40 years, that it would have a detrimental impact on unborn children. Obviously it has had that impact. The evidence of that is not only in this country but also in France and England. I believe the search or invitation for a chairperson of the inquiry will close this week, so I expect the inquiry will start quickly. Will the inquiry come under the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Health?
To the best of my knowledge, it will be under the Department of Health. I share the Deputy's view and hope the inquiry will get under way quickly. I will get the Deputy a note on that from the Minister for Health. It will be under the Department of Health, to the best of my knowledge
If the Taoiseach could provide that note, as well as details on the timeframe envisaged, it would be appreciated. It took a long time to get terms of reference for the inquiry that would, in some way, go towards uncovering the truth around the valproate scandal.
I heard what the Taoiseach said about immigration. The fact is we need a national strategy that is fair, efficient and firm and ensures communities are properly communicated with and there is a front-loading of resources. People have run out of patience because they have seen that, absolutely, we needed an emergency response but, now that we are all these months down the line, people expect more. Members of the Taoiseach's Government have been out protesting in Ballina and the following question comes from Mayo, and from Ballina in particular. When are we going to stop the developer-led approach, stop using hotels and have enough State accommodation to accommodate people? While one would say accommodation is not the biggest issue, using hotel beds was supposed to be an emergency response but an industry has been built around it and I do not see that any attempt has been made to do something different. Perhaps the Taoiseach will tell me when we will change and stop using hotel beds.
To be clear, I do believe that accommodation is the greatest outworking of the challenge we face in resect of migration. In case I misinterpreted the question, I absolutely believe that. I am making the point, though, that I do not think the conversation about migration should be limited to that because there are other issues around the efficiency of the system, which I think the Deputy and I, and most people, would share a view on in terms of the need for us to be more efficient in respect of processing times and the like.
There are a couple of parts to the question. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has brought forward to Cabinet, and has received Cabinet approval for, a new accommodation framework. I am very pleased that in that it talks about not going into the town or village and taking the only hotel. That has caused massive social cohesion pressures. It is one thing if you are in a large urban area and there may be a number of options for a funeral reception, wedding, christening or tourism product. If a place only has one hotel and it is the last hotel in the town or village and all of a sudden it is taken out of circulation for tourism use, that causes a real problem. The new accommodation plan does commit to staying away from that sort of decision.
Second, because this all interplays, there are very many contracts that have been placed by the Department of integration around Ukrainian accommodation, so guesthouses, hotels and the like. Every day, on average, 15 people come to Ireland from Ukraine seeking accommodation but every day, on average, approximately 45 people from Ukraine are leaving State accommodation. We have been told, as a Government, by the Minister for integration that that means in the weeks ahead there should be guesthouses, hotels and other accommodation that is currently being used whose contracts may not need to be extended. I expect there to be a churn there in terms of potential facilities that were being used for the Ukrainian humanitarian response that may be able to go back into the community original use they had.
I will make one last point, which I think will answer the crux of the question. I expect the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, in the next few weeks to come to Cabinet with his first tranche of proposals around how he intends to develop, and seek the funding to develop, public-owned facilities.
I do not have the number in front of me but, at the moment, well over 90% of the accommodation we are using for migration is privately owned. We are going to see the first tranche in the coming weeks as to how the Minister intends to begin to alter the balance.
That needs to be done as a matter of urgency. People have made hundreds of millions on the backs of the most vulnerable people globally.
It will still be very interesting around the community engagement and the like because this will still mean we will need communities to welcome and support people. We have to be upfront with people and not pit one community service against another. It is the loss of a community facility, such as a hotel, community centre and the like, that has fuelled some challenges in relation to social cohesion.
It is the mixed messages as well. There is not communication with the communities and there is not a whole-of-government response. We have county councillors from Government parties out protesting because it has suddenly dawned on them that there are not enough GP services, education services and other things in communities that have been neglected for years. I am not saying this for any other reason than that we need to start getting this right. There are mixed messages coming. I ask the Taoiseach to get behind the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and, as Taoiseach, to have a whole-of-government response, because the Minister is being used as a scapegoat for not having that cohesive response. I ask the Government to have respect for communities and recognise what is not in communities and the situation in which people cannot get a GP in their own town and then there are additions to that. There is a right way to do this. I commend communities, and certainly the community of Ballina on the wonderful job it has done on integration there, especially the family resource centre and other community organisations as well. This has happened in many communities, which have done a very good job on integration and, as the Taoiseach rightly said, adding to the community. However, there is a breaking point due to how these communities have been neglected and this needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss it with the Taoiseach.
Do I have time to ask another couple of questions?
Deputy Durkan still has not spoken and I want to ask a question of the Taoiseach.
If I may, I will just ask one more short question on the €1.4 million cost of the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use. Is that the annual cost or total cost of that citizens' assembly? Is it in line with the costs of citizens' assemblies held in the past? I ask because it is time for a citizens' assembly on Irish unity. As the Taoiseach knows, the Good Friday Agreement provides for a referendum on Irish unity. It was interesting last week to have Dr. Claire Mitchell before the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The Taoiseach will be aware that she wrote a book The Ghost Limb: Alternative Protestants and the Spirit of 1798. His colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, invited Dr. Mitchell to the audiovisual room to talk about her book a couple of weeks ago. She described the unionist and Protestant people as diverse, progressive and liberal and said a section of them are unity-curious. She said it would help the debate grow among the unionist community if an offer of what a united Ireland would look like was made to the unionist and Protestant people. She also said, as do most of the witnesses who come before that committee, that we need to start planning and discussing what a united Ireland would look like in order that we can present a positive vision for the future. There are so many different people from all walks of life who want to be part of this conversation. There is work being done by Joanne McEvoy, Eilish Rooney and many more academics across the board who are linking up with the communities, especially the hard-to-reach voices. It is not only about getting their views but having them participate in a vision for a new Ireland we can have.
The Taoiseach has a really good opportunity to provide a framework for all that work to be done. One of the best ways to do that is through a citizens' assembly, although not exclusively. We should not be afraid to have a citizens' assembly on what a new Ireland would look like in the event of reunification. People are calling for one to be able to discuss the economy, health, climate change and all the things we do on an all-island basis. I commend the Taoiseach on the resources he put into the Magee campus when he was Minister for further and higher education and the work we did around the Higher Education Authority legislation that has tasked all the higher education institutions with developing a plan on student mobility across the island. As such, he gets it and understands what needs to be done. As Taoiseach, he is in a very privileged position to bring that further along. This is not getting away from a citizens’ assembly because I really want to see a citizens’ assembly on Irish unity.
I thank the Deputy and, truthfully, I enjoyed working with her on a number of the all-island education projects we worked on together. I am genuinely excited to see the Magee campus because there has been a terrible social injustice done to Derry when it comes to access to higher education provision. There is a very exciting prospect now with ATU Letterkenny in Deputy Doherty’s constituency and the Magee campus. There is a real opportunity for the north west there just as there has been with Altnagelvin Hospital in Derry. I worked with the First Minister when she was health minister in the North and I was health Minister here on the cardiac network for sick kids from the North getting life-saving surgery in Crumlin hospital. There is a lot more we can do. I will be in Northern Ireland, probably on Friday week and certainly some time towards the end of next week, for a meeting with the First Minister and deputy First Minister.
I am very clear on this and that is why I got a bit of a pile-on when I made comments at the British-Irish Parliamentary Association, which the Deputy attended. I very much believe there is a need for people on this island to get to know each other a lot better. I really believe that and I base it not just on my gut but on the student mobility conversations the Deputy and I have had before. I am a person who aspires to see a united Ireland. That is my view and a legitimate aspiration I can have as a nationalist and as the Taoiseach of this country. It is just a question of emphasis in terms of how we get there. The shared island fund and the work we can do together under the auspices of the Good Friday Agreement can help get people across this island to know each other better and work together better on different issues. There is not currently a plan for citizens’ assembly in the area the Deputy referenced.
Every time I meet the Taoiseach I will ask him. To finish on that, he is right about the conversations that have been happened but in his position, as Taoiseach in charge of the Government, he has a responsibility to provide the framework for it. That is coming back from all the academics who have written papers on this, as well as the economists and everybody else the committee engaged with. There is a big summit with the All-Island Cancer Research Institute involving America in the coming days. There is so much work being done. We need leadership on this from the Government and I am hoping the Taoiseach will provide that leadership.
I will not get into a big debate around Irish unification or the Chairman will give out to me, but I have no doubt the Deputy will bring this up with me regularly. I welcome the chance to have an exchange on it. I also take seriously my role as a co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement.
We now have the institutions back up and running and we have a hell of a lot of work to do. That is where I want to put my focus.
I thank the Taoiseach.
I thank the Deputy. Deputy Durkan is next.
How many minutes do I have?
One.
I apologise to the Deputy. He is going to kill me.
How could you expect a mere simple citizen-----
I would never expect you to stick to one minute anyway.
-----to reply and respond to the collective wisdom in this room in one minute. I assume I have ten or 15-----
It is only half a minute now.
I assume I have the same as everybody else.
You are running out of time.
No, I am the same as everyone else. That is fair play.
The Taoiseach-----
I know. It is in deference to the Taoiseach that I want to-----
Work away, Deputy.
-----have the same time as everybody else.
I welcome the Taoiseach and his officials to the committee and congratulate him on his recent elevation. I wish him and his officials the best of luck in future.
To take things up from where the last conversation ended, the Irish question, which has been referred to over many years, is definitely an issue that falls within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. As was agreed and accepted at the time, this is important and must happen as fast as possible but as slow as necessary. If any attempt is made to coerce people, North or South, into any kind of regulated system, then there will be a reaction. That is the way we are and have always been. I advise that we work towards setting examples, as has been done by the Taoiseach's predecessors, and I know he will do so too. This approach would be intended to encourage people to recognise what can be gained and the benefits of the convergence of the two parts of this island. Any attempt to use coercion to achieve this outcome will receive a negative response, so we should recognise this fact.
I remember going home one night a couple of years ago and there were posters up on the western road out of this capital calling, in effect, for a poll on Northern Ireland now. The next morning, however, they were gone. There must have been a change in strategy somewhere along the line. Either the person who put up the posters had a change of strategy or the organisation he represented did. The situation, though, was that that was what happened. I can tell the committee members the spot and bring them to it. This is an important and sensitive issue and needs to be treated very seriously throughout the length and breadth of this country. If it is done in the way I have referred to, and the approach taken follows this fashion, I think it will be successful from everybody's point of view. This is what we need to strive for. The people involved in the Good Friday Agreement all said this at the time. They said this had to be worked at. This is a work in progress. It is not something we can walk away from and say it is all done now. We have a lot to do here.
I turn now to comment very quickly on the issue of the economy. It is a great success story from the point of view of this Government and previous ones in recent years, having succeeded in turning around what were numerous challenges. This applies to the Opposition as well. This country faced many challenges over the past ten years or so, none of which was expected. Following the financial crash, we also had the Covid crash. We had a series of issues that challenged the economy and everybody had their own opinions as to what should have been done, including whether to do nothing, to do like Britain, France or Germany or to do things the other countries were doing. I think we did the right thing in the circumstances.
All congratulations are due to the respective Governments that took those decisions in the interests of public health and safety, of the State and of the economy of the State, which is fundamental in any situation. That was a great success and nobody knew it was going to be so beforehand. It was addressing the unknown. We did not know what was around the corner. We did not know if hundreds of thousands of people were going to die, as did happen in other jurisdictions. It did not happen here. Fortunately, we were lucky. Some people did die and this is regretted. At least, though, the efforts by the State and the authorities here were in line with the challenge put to them at the time and the Governments are to be congratulated for that.
In relation to migration, this is another subject out there now, and very much so. A lot of misinformation and disinformation and much misleading information is being poured on top of the population from various sources, none of which has any authority, none of which is authenticated and none of which is recognisable. I have seen, as I am sure has the Taoiseach and everybody else around this table, messages aiming to terrorise and scare the population and create fear. This has been the case in my constituency, and in others. In Moville in County Donegal, for example, we have had a situation where proposed accommodation for immigrants was fire-bombed. Proposed accommodation was also fire-bombed in Rooskey in County Roscommon, on Achill Island in County Mayo and in parts of County Galway.
As well as that, in this city, and in other towns and villages throughout the country, there were attacks on buildings that were deemed to be sites for future accommodation for immigrants. Some people involved in this kind of campaign have organised themselves into what would appear to be a police force, ordering what is and is not acceptable. They are walking up to people and asking them questions like where they are from. If the answer is not in accordance with the wishes of the questioners, people are attacked. People have been attacked in this manner. Incredibly, this has happened in the environs of this city in very recent times. This is simply unacceptable. We can put whatever colour we like on this, but in a situation like this, it smacks of other regimes that prevailed across Europe in the last century.
We need to be absolutely clear in our minds that while, on the one hand, there may be, and there are, issues that must be dealt with in a more orderly fashion in relation to private accommodation and so on, regarding the people who have set themselves up as a police force and who burn properties on the basis that these are to house immigrants, this is not the law and it should not be allowed to prevail. We have all spoken about this in the past, but what is worrying is why it is continuing. What is the problem? Do we not recognise the law anymore?
We should know more about migration than anybody else because we emigrated from this country for centuries and we were not welcomed in all the places we went to. It was not so long ago. I was talking with people in the last couple of weeks who quite well remember this being the case, and not too far away, where there were notices on boarding houses to the effect that "Irish, Africans and dogs" were not accepted. This kind of thing prevailed then and people got away with it, but because they got away with it at the time does not mean it is right. It certainly is not right. Perhaps various spokespersons at different ends of the globe have allowed this type of attitude to fester and mature and become acceptable again. Making the country great, though, does not always mean making the society great.
I am concerned about the extent to which this has gone on and the extent to which it continues to go on. I draw attention to Ryevale House in my own constituency, for example, and the situation there in recent weeks. To be fair to the local people, they do not have objections. An element has emerged in recent times, however, who do have objections. The unfortunate thing about Ryevale House is that the accommodation is inadequate to provide for and meet the requirements of the numbers of people put into it. I believe it is necessary to ensure that when accommodation is made available, however it is made available, the owners benefitting from the situation should be responsible for security. In any event, someone must be responsible for security. The better-run places are those that have this security and ensure it is enforced at all times.
To be fair to the people in the vicinity of places like Ryevale House, they should be listened to with a view to finding out what the problem is. I know that the big problem in this context is that there are no proper toilet facilities and no proper facilities to accommodate the numbers of people being accommodated there now. As a result of this situation, the whole concept is diminished and demoralised. I therefore ask that special notice be taken of this aspect.
This is so there are no situations where people firebomb particular situations then disappear, and nothing ever happens afterwards. That is not the way things are supposed to happen. I wanted to mention that.
I will also mention the challenges ahead. We accept climate change is happening. It is always there. It is not the first climate change, however. We had climate change in the past and will have it in the future. I am around long enough to remember the end of the forties and the fifties, during which there were only two good years. There were two years when it did not rain all year long. The years from 1949 to 1951 were all years you could not stay out without an umbrella at any time. The year 1952 was a good one - I remember it well as I got badly sunburned that year - but 1953 was appalling and 1954 was worse. The year 1955 was a good one, 1956 was again appalling, 1957 was bad and, the Chairman will be glad to know, that in 1958 the fledgling combine harvesters were left in the field and had to be towed out the following spring. That is not all. I could go on for another 20 years if necessary, but I will not. I can assure you-----
We will just presume there was bad weather generally-----
I know. I was hoping to speak-----
For many of those years, Fine Gael was in government.
No. In actual fact, if they were, the Opposition would have found a way to blame them. Fine Gael was in government from 1954 to 1957, but 1955 was in the middle of that and it was a good year.
I hoped to participate in the ongoing debate in the House, but I cannot be in two places, despite all that. I want to say-----
If you could, you would make it.
There are a couple of issues that are a threat to the economy, for instance, soil management, which is at an all-time low. I looked at somebody on television last week with a tractor in a field of corn, where there were tracks at least two feet deep, and water was flowing before the tyres to the end of the row. That is bad for cultivation. It creates an acidic element in the soil that is damaging. In a few years, the fertility of the soil will go down and our ability to meet the demand for food for an increasing population will be seriously damaged.
I also draw attention to the Kerry Group, which has had particular problems with dairy. I cannot understand it but I have seen it myself. In our house, I have had to do the supermarket shopping in recent years. As a result, I spot the things that are happening and the trends. The trend is a huge prevalence of imported dairy and less and less Irish produce. That is an indicative straw in the wind. We need to keep that in mind. The Taoiseach is aware of this because he comes from a constituency that is both rural and urban. The two demands are there. It is important we recognise that these things are happening and are afoot now. There is no easy way to explain them away. They cannot be explained away.
I will not go further into that other than to again congratulate the Taoiseach on his appointment. I wish him the best. He has the knowledge and experience that he can put to good account in the Department he is now in and to lead the country, as it was previously, in a positive way, to ensure that the concerns of our population are measured and dealt with as they arise in a fashion that is acceptable.
Thank you very much.
Is that okay, Chairman?
It might be some comfort to the Deputy to know that he has spoken longer than any other member.
That I have not.
I have been recording you-----
No. They watch it in Kildare too. I have an antique watch here and I did not speak longer.
I will ask a few questions. Maybe the Taoiseach will answer them along with Deputy Durkan's. I will not delay the Taoiseach.
I agree with Covid evaluation. That is necessary. However, we need to take the fear people have about vaccines and deal with that, and the issue of the numbers who died and how they died. It should form the basis of a discussion at an Oireachtas committee. Whoever looks at the issue and provides a report, we should debate it in the House or at an Oireachtas committee.
The committee is dealing with the Estimates, yet the issue of migration has formed the centre of the debate at this meeting. I will give the example of a site in County Kilkenny, Wallslough, where there are Ukrainian families. The community has responded very positively, but now there will be a further 200 or 300 people. It is a very rural location. There has been no communication whatsoever from the Department with the local community. I respect community. The Taoiseach stated that he respected community. The greatest failure in all of what the Government is doing in respect of people coming to the country is the failure to engage with local communities to get their support. The Government might not get support all the time, but we are dividing Irish society in the manner in which we are conducting our business. I find that very sad because, in the area I spoke about, including Wallslough and any other areas I know of in Kilkenny city, the community has engaged with, supported, given time to, and assisted families. Now, without any notice, the rumour is there will be more people. I can point to other locations, but that is the example we need to look at. There are other examples throughout the country. We are not doing the business correctly here. The rights of those who live in Ireland need to be equal to the rights of those who arrive here. There should be no discrepancy between the rights of individuals, regardless of who they are, who live on this island to the services we offer and everything else that goes with them. That is a simple rule of thumb that we fail to implement.
The migration pact we are to discuss needs to be explained too, not just to people in the House but to the public. It is a complicated document, when you download and attempt to read it. To rush it through the House would be the wrong thing to do. It will add further complications to the attitude of Irish society and will further move people away from politics. It is something that has to done. I would favour a referendum rather than a vote in the Dáil but, in the absence of one or the other, the Irish people have a right to know. They have a right to know. That should come from the Government and not from TikTok, with respect to the Taoiseach, Facebook or Twitter. I am not saying the Taoiseach is doing that. I am talking about the negativity that comes across on those platforms that people tend to pick up. That is a challenge for the Government.
I agree with Deputy Conway-Walsh on the thalidomide issue. The people affected were promised by another senior politician that the issue would be dealt with. It still has not been dealt with. There is great sadness in that. Thalidomide survivors lost one of their friends recently. Again, it is something the State can deal with better.
On tribunals, the Charleton tribunal is one I am interested in. It may not come under the Taoiseach's remit. I have the same question in respect of the rest of the tribunals, but it applies to the Charleton tribunal in particular because of what happened during it. Will the papers for all those tribunals be stored? Will they be kept for reference? Are they destroyed or what happens to them? There are particular examples within the Charleton tribunal that point to back channels into and out of Government and so on, which I would love to see examined. I am talking about the most senior level in the Government and the Opposition. Those back channels need to be looked at. If the papers are destroyed, it may be difficult for any future court or future engagement on that tribunal to examine what the truth was and what happened at the time.
It is a question for all tribunals. Are the papers protected and can they be examined by people in the future? Are the papers held digitally?
SMEs and farming are absolutely critical. Businesses are closing left, right and centre. The Taoiseach was in Kilkenny last Friday and he will have seen that the city is busy and there are tourists there but the main street, High Street, is affected. It is true of most towns and villages now, that shops are closing. We have to invest more in SMEs.
On the issue of autism, access to child and adolescent psychiatrists in the south east is a serious problem. Parents are seeking appointments to have their children assessed in the context of autism but there are no services there for them. I will leave it at that. I ask the Taoiseach to take note of what has been said and to provide answers in written format. I suggest that he can answer Deputy Durkan's questions tonight at the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party meeting.
I was not around to----
Thank you very much Chairman.
I would have to look into the weather in 1955.
The Chairman should come to the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party meeting as well.
If you do not mind, Taoiseach, you might cover the issues in a written note.
Yes, I will do that and I thank the committee for the serious points made. I just want to respond to the point made on migration, the rule of law, gardaí and the likes. It is a serious point and all political parties in this House have been standing by the law and the gardaí in relation to their job. I accept that gardaí have a very difficult job to do and I accept that they can come across very fraught situations but there should never be a situation in this country where anybody is allowed, on a sustained basis, to carry out a breach of the law or to impede people accessing a facility or building. There needs to be real clarity in relation to that.
On the migration pact, I certainly do not think it should be rushed. It is really important. My understanding is that it is scheduled for around seven hours of debate in the Dáil next week. It is a substantial issue and it should get lots of time. The Government and Opposition should work together to ensure there is lots of time given to it. I should also make the point that this will need primary legislation. If the Government wishes to opt in to the migration pact, that will require an overhaul of primary legislation so there will be many a vote and many an opportunity for debate. I say that by way of acknowledging the Chairman's interest and many other people's interest in it.
On thalidomide, I have a fairly big file sitting on my desk that I want to work through. I have been in touch with Ms Finola Cassidy and others in relation to thalidomide, as have most people in the House. I will continue to keep in touch with her on it.
I do not know the answer to the question about papers from tribunals but I will find out and revert to the Chairman. I will come back on any other outstanding issues in writing. I will also seek an update on the weather history of the 1950s. No one on my team can provide me with any corporate memory of that.
We have come to the end of our deliberations on the Revised Estimates for the Taoiseach's Department.
