Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Vote 36 - Defence (Revised)

Chairman

I have received apologies from Deputies Stanton and Cowen. The Dáil has ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this committee for consideration, namely, Vote 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence. At today's meeting, the select committee will consider the Estimates.

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Tánaisteand Minister for Defence, Deputy Micheál Martin, and his officials. I thank the officials and the Department for the briefing material provided to the committee. As it is the first meeting of this committee with the Tánaiste in his revised capacity as the Minister for Defence, I warmly welcome him. He has experience of attending this committee in his capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs in the past, but not as Minister for Defence. At the outset of today's consideration, I invite the Tánaiste to give an overview of Votes 35 and 36, outlining any pressures or issues that are likely to impact on the performance of the Department of Defence and of expenditure on the Vote for the remainder of this year. For questions, the Votes will be taken in reverse order.

We will take Vote 36 first, followed by Vote 35. The floor will then be opened for questions from members of the committee for both Votes separately.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make that person in any way identifiable. I do not believe any members of the committee are participating remotely. With that, I call on the Tánaiste to make his opening statement in respect of Votes 35 and 36, after which we will have questions and answers with members.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his kind comments and welcome. I welcome this opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence to consider the 2023 Revised Estimates for the defence Vote group. I have a short opening statement that sets out the overall position and updates members on some recent developments within the defence sector.

The report of the Commission on the Defence Forces and the associated high-level action plan were approved by Government last July. In doing so, the Government committed to increases in defence funding commensurate with a move to level of ambition 2, with defence funding targeted to increase to circa €1.5 billion at 2022 prices by 2028 through the annual Estimates process. The significantly increased allocation to the defence Vote group in 2023 highlights my commitment and that of my Government colleagues to providing a strong financial platform for the defence sector to support this level of ambition and the required transformation of the Defence Forces.

The combined Estimates for the Army pensions and defence Votes for 2023 provide for gross expenditure of some €1.21 billion, an increase of more than €93 million or 8% on 2022. Vote 35 - Army Pensions has a single programme, which is entitled, Provision for Defence Forces’ Pensions Benefits. This makes provision for retired pay, pensions, allowances and gratuities payable to, or in respect of, former members of the Defence Forces and certain dependants. The 2023 Estimate provides a gross amount of some €295 million, an increase of €14 million from 2022. Of this, €284 million covers expenditure on superannuation benefits. Pension benefits granted are, for the most part, statutory entitlements once certain criteria are met. Currently more than 13,100 pensioners are paid from the Army pensions Vote, with numbers rising year on year. The increased allocation provided in 2023 will address both the cost of existing and new pensions as well as passing on the benefits from the Building Momentum pay increases received by serving personnel.

I will now turn to Vote 36 - Defence, which is delivered under a single programme entitled, Defence Policy and Support, Military Capabilities and Operational Outputs. The Revised Estimate for defence of more than €915 million is an increase of €79 million from 2022. This includes €564 million for the pay and allowances of members of the Permanent Defence Force, civil servants and civilian employees and includes all costs associated with the Building Momentum public service pay agreement payable in 2023.

In previous years, pay funding was allocated for a Permanent Defence Force establishment strength of 9,500. When pay savings arose, and with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, these funds were used to address spending pressures elsewhere in the Vote and Vote group. However, as part of the Estimates 2023, a revised approach has been introduced with pay funding for the year based on prevailing strength plus an anticipated net increase of 400 personnel with non-pay subheads of the defence Vote, both capital and non-capital, increased in recognition of the change from the previous arrangement.

The pay allocation includes funding to enable the filling of the head of transformation and strategic HR roles recommended by the Commission on the Defence Forces. These appointment processes are under way. In addition, a number of specific commission recommendations on pay and allowances have been actioned and implemented. As a result, the starting pay for a newly qualified three star private and the Naval Service equivalent is currently €36,419, including military service allowance. This compares very favourably with entry level starting pay across the public service and should be of assistance to the ongoing "Be More" recruitment campaign.

The non-pay allocation of €351 million comprises both current and capital elements. The Revised Estimate for defence provides a non-pay current expenditure allocation of more than €175 million for 2023. This allocation is an increase of €25 million on 2022 and provides mainly for expenditure on ongoing and essential Defence Forces standing and operational costs such as utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training. It also includes funding of more than €5 million for Civil Defence in 2023. This funding supports Civil Defence units throughout the country by way of central training and the supply of vital equipment.

The principal demand driver of defence capital funding is the ongoing renewal, upgrade and acquisition of military equipment along with the development of military infrastructure and information and communication technologies. The Commission on the Defence Forces reinforced the requirement for significant capital investment in defensive equipment programmes and on upgrading and modernising Defence Forces built infrastructure. To this end, the increase of €35 million in capital funding in 2023 is particularly noteworthy. It brings the total capital allocation to €176 million, a 25% increase on 2022, the single biggest annual capital investment ever provided to defence.

Many of the defence equipment projects are complex and multi-annual and most have long lead-in times so this increased funding along with the multi-annual funding certainty now provided by the national development plan is welcome as it will enable the Department and the Defence Forces to plan, prioritise and deliver on a comprehensive schedule of capital investment over the coming years.

I will briefly reference some of the outputs to be delivered from the defence Vote throughout 2023. The 2023 allocation will allow Defence Forces personnel to meet Government commitments on our overseas peace support missions and proudly represent Ireland abroad in diverse and often challenging locations throughout the world. As of 1 January, Ireland was contributing 556 personnel to seven different missions throughout the world and also to a range of international organisations and national representations. This level of overseas deployment reflects Ireland’s ongoing commitment to international peace and security and I thank our Defence Forces for their professionalism and commitment to their overseas roles.

Members will be aware that I recently travelled to Lebanon where I met the Defence Forces’ personnel of the 121st Infantry Battalion and spoke with colleagues of the late Private Seán Rooney who was killed while serving in Lebanon last December. I again express my sincerest sympathies to his mother, Natasha, his dad, Paul, his fiancée, Holly, his grandparents, Eugene and Rachel, his nanny, Ann, and his siblings, uncles, family, friends, nephew and nieces. I also acknowledge those of his colleagues who were injured, especially Trooper Shane Kearney, who was seriously injured in the same incident. We are thankful that Shane is recovering well and was discharged from hospital earlier this month to continue his recovery before further medical treatment. As members are aware, a number of separate inquiries are under way into this tragic event and I believe that we owe it to Private Rooney, his colleagues and their families and to all Defence Forces members to establish the truth and I am committed to doing that.

I will make brief reference to the Government approval for Defence Forces participation in a German-led battle group in 2024-2025. It is anticipated that the proposed Defence Forces contribution to the battle group will be 174 personnel. I am confident that Ireland’s participation in this battle group will further build on the Defence Forces impressive peacekeeping reputation and will enhance the Defence Forces’ capacity to work with other nations in a multinational environment.

At home, the funding provision allows the Defence Forces to continue to provide essential support for An Garda Síochána, when requested, across various roles, such as explosive ordnance disposal call-outs, Garda air support missions and Naval Service diving operations. It also enables the Defence Forces, as part of their aid to the civil authority role, to provide support to local authorities and to the Health Service Executive in their emergency response efforts. I also greatly value the service of the Reserve Defence Force and, on behalf of the Government, I commend the voluntary effort made by members of the Reserve Defence Force and to thank them for their ongoing dedication and enthusiasm.

We need to wholeheartedly support the Reserve Defence Forces. I am assured by military management that the office of reserve affairs is being established and I will be ensuring that regeneration efforts will commence urgently.

The Defence Forces provide enormous, often unseen, support to the State. I wish to pay tribute to their ongoing contribution. As Minister for Defence, I welcome and fully embrace the challenge of transforming our Defence Forces to rise to the level of ambition and change outlined in the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces. Government will support and enable this significant organisational and cultural change with proportionate increases in defence funding, as evidenced in the increase in funding in 2023.

Before concluding, I just want to reference my receipt of the report of the independent review group, IRG. This report independently and comprehensively has examined many issues relating to bullying, harassment, discrimination and sexual misconduct, as well as the workplace culture in the Defence Forces. Every member of the Defence Forces has a right to undertake their role in a work environment which promotes dignity and equality for all. I can assure the committee that I will be considering this report in full in consultation with the Attorney General and I will bring the report to Government for its consideration and subsequent publication. Committee members have been provided with briefing material on the defence group of Estimates and I look forward to constructive engagement with them on the many issues impacting on the Defence Vote group in 2023 and beyond.

Chairman

I thank the Tánaiste. I call Deputy Clarke.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I welcome the Tánaiste. Hopefully, this is the start of many positive engagements with the committee in his new role. I want to start on Vote 36 - Defence. I have a number of specific questions. I will refer to the programme expenditure by subhead, if that is of any assistance. I also have a couple of general questions that I want to ask. Given the low level of investment in defence over the last significant number of years, any spending is going to be welcome. Does the Tánaiste think the increase that has been put aside this year will make timely progress on the recommendations contained in the commission's report?

I want to move on to the 95 projects listed in the White Paper on Defence published in 2015 that were to be completed within ten years. There are 43 of them remaining and 13 of them are active. I am not asking for information on the individual projects, but I ask for a general overview of where they are, what they are and what impact the recent rise in the cost of materials is going to have on those projects. Staying with the projects for the minute, subhead A13 relates to built infrastructure, if anybody wants to look at it. The outturn in 2022 seems to be far below what was budgeted, so the increase this year is obviously welcome. Is there a portion of that budget that is set aside for the maintenance and upkeep of built infrastructure that remains under the control of the Department of Defence but not in active use by the Department?

Deputy Micheál Martin

So, basically, does it cover-----

Deputy Sorca Clarke

What portion of it is set aside for that? There is a very specific reason I am asking the question. Yesterday afternoon, I was standing in a closed barracks that is under the control of the Department of Defence that has gone to rack and ruin. These are very historic buildings. It would make me believe that there are other such instances around the country, and that the Department should be focusing more on it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What barracks is that?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Columb Barracks in Mullingar, and specifically the old prison that has graffiti on the walls dating back to the early 1900s. It is a very historic building.

I want to move to subhead A7 on Defence Forces civilian support, pay and allowances. Based on the information that has been provided, the Revised Estimate for 2023 has gone up but the staff numbers seem to be going down. Is there a reason for that? What are the areas of change?

On subhead A8 on Defence Forces capability development, excluding aircraft and naval vessels, what is the allocation for actual equipment and what are the priorities for that spending?

Subhead A12 deals with barrack expenses and engineering equipment. The members of the committee have visited the Curragh and have seen, first-hand, the amount of improvement works that need to be carried out. We have also been to the naval base and we have seen the works that need done there. Nobody is disputing the fact that works are desperately needed. I want to ask specifically about the impact on the cost of the materials. Has that been budgeted for by the Department of Defence?

Subhead A15 concerns Defence Forces communications and IT. It is one of the areas that this committee has touched on before, particularly following the cyberattack on the HSE. We discussed the need for communications systems to be the best that they can be. Is the Department of Defence reviewing any of the security systems that are in place in terms of the use or potential use of Hikvision systems?

On subhead A21 on litigation and compensation costs, the Tánaiste referenced the report of the IRG that was brought to him last week, as I understand. Is that review an indicating factor in the increase of the amount of money that has been budgeted for litigation costs? I may come back in again with more general questions.

Chairman

I will go to Deputy Brady and then go back-----

Deputy John Brady

If the Tánaiste wants to respond to some of Deputy Clarke's questions first, it might make sense.

Chairman

I am in the hands of the committee.

Deputy Micheál Martin

First of all, in terms of the 8% increase in current expenditure and the 25% increase in capital expenditure, I believe those increases in both current and capital expenditure are very much tied into achieving the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces, particularly on the capital side. Considering that there is a fairly significant lead-in time in capital projects more generally, an increase of 25% now means a far more significant increase in perhaps years 3 and 4, when some of the capital projects come to realisation. Primary radar, for example, could be a bigger project in terms of maritime radar and so on and having different systems and making sure there is interoperability. In other words, what we start now will have a higher cost later. When you start a road project, the initial costs are the design, scoping and so on. You do not actually incur the main costs in the first year or two. It is when you are actually either drawing down the project or realising the project that the heavy costs come. That is very significant in terms of the commitment to infrastructural investment.

Since I have come in to the Department I have looked at measures that we can take to accelerate some of the projects. I have requested an assessment in respect of the training centre in Gormanstown. I would be very keen to accelerate that project if we can. I have asked the military management if we get it done as one project in a more accelerated way, rather than doing it in different phases. On a capital front, we will take any opportunities that we get to accelerate work.

On the question about the barracks, anything that is under the control of the Department of Defence is covered by the relevant subhead, and would have to be. Even if barracks may not be in use, we have an obligation and a responsibility in respect of the built heritage and also safety and protection, and we must also ensure sure there is potential use for the barracks subsequently. We committed to transferring Columb Barracks to the Land Development Agency, LDA, to be reclassed for housing provision. There are pre-contractual matters to discuss and so on, and there is engagement with the Chief State Solicitor's office, CSSO. That work between the LDA and the CSSO is nearing completion. A public consultation process on the future of the site was conducted by the LDA. However, in the meantime we have to make sure it is safe and protected in terms of public health and safety. We do not have a timeline yet from the LDA in terms of it taking charge of the delivery of the project.

On the built infrastructure planned projects, a midterm review of the plan was completed by the Department and the Defence Forces last year, which sets out the projects to be progressed in the next five years.

The following are the key capital projects: €18 million for the upgrading and refurbishment of two buildings at McKee Barracks; €15.4 million for the new military medical facility at Casement Aerodrome and the relocation of St. Bricin's Military Hospital; €10 million to upgrade the former USAC block in Renmore Barracks, Galway; €9.5 million to upgrade the block 4 accommodation at Haulbowline - I think a lot of that funding has been advanced or is on the way; €9 million for the new communications and information services workshop facility at the Defence Forces Training Centre; €9 million for two new accommodation blocks and the refurbishment of block 1 at Collins Barracks; €9.2 million for the upgrade of block 9 office accommodation at Haulbowline; €7.8 million for a new Army Rangers wing headquarters building; €4.1 million for the cadet school headquarters; and €1.9 million for the relocation of the printing press at McKee Barracks. These projects are all at different stages of design, planning and construction. There is a lot going on. I will come back to the Deputy with a note on the White Paper projects and their dovetailing with the projects to which I referred. I do not have the full list of specific projects in front of me but the ones I mentioned were identified by the review.

On civilian pay increases, the national pay awards under the Building Momentum deal are included in the agreement. As Deputy Clarke noted, staff numbers have gone down. As per the new agreement, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has given us in the 2023 Estimates the funding equivalent of approximately 8,600 posts. The numbers are currently at just below 8,000 but we keep that income for 2023. The increase is more on the pay side and covering the target of 8,600. We then made up for that in terms of the other increases we got on the non-pay and capital side, as we discussed.

The bottom line is that we still have a significant issue with recruitment and retention. That is the fundamental issue and it is not resource-dependent in the sense that we have an agreed ceiling of 9,600 to which we can expand in the context of the objectives set out by the Commission on the Defence Forces. If the numbers increase, we get the money automatically. That is not an issue. The issue is making sure we achieve net recruitment of the scale we require. I have had meetings on this with military management and the Department. We have to approach it from the recruitment side. The pay and conditions have improved and, as I outlined, there is a substantial increase in the starting pay, which is now €36,000. For newly commissioned officers, a school leaver who has applied for cadet training will now be commissioned after 15 to 18 months and will start on a salary of €40,316. If officers are already graduates when they join, they start on a salary of €45,496, inclusive of the military service allowance. Those salaries compare favourably with the average graduate entry salary across all sectors of the economy. This is the result of decisions that were made in the past year and a half.

We are consistently looking at ways we can improve conditions for Defence Forces members. Salary is one aspect of it. We also need to work on the culture aspect and making the Defence Forces an attractive place for people to come into and work within. We need to analyse where young people are today, what attracts them and what will ensure their sustainability in the service, whether in the Army, the navy or the Air Corps. We have a bit of work to do on that, which I openly acknowledge. If people have ideas or contributions to offer for how we can achieve this, I am open to them across the board. I am worried about the numbers we have. We need to increase them. The second side of the story is retention. I have spoken to my officials about this and they have been in discussion with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We will accelerate those discussions with a view to devising measures that will help to retain people for longer in the Defence Forces. That is urgent work given the situation we are in.

On A8, the equipment development plan provides a comprehensive list of planned equipment projects, which will be progressed over a five-year period. Among the major defence equipment upo

On subhead A8, the equipment development plan provides a comprehensive list of planned equipment projects, which will be progressed over a five-year period. Among the major defence equipment upgrade and replacement programmes that are now progressing are the land forces capability development and force protection programmes, including an upgrade of the military transport fleet and next-generation radio communications and signal equipment. There is also the ongoing Naval Service vessel renewal and replacement programme, which includes the mid-life refit of the P50 class of naval vessels and the progression of the multi-role vessel project. The ongoing Air Corps aircraft renewal and replacement programme includes-----

Deputy Sorca Clarke

My question was what amount has been allocated to equipment, excluding aircraft and naval vessels.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We have multi-annual capital funding of approximately €566 million allocated out to 2025. Outside of aircraft, we are looking at defensive equipment, the Mowag upgrade, which is significant, and provision of helmets, body armour and ammunition. All of that is provided for in the Estimate.

The Deputy referred to cybersecurity.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Are Hikvision systems in operation by the Department of Defence?

Deputy Micheál Martin

We do not comment on security matters. However, I will try to get an answer to that question. My understanding is that one location has been identified. A Civil Defence building in Roscrea apparently has Hikvision cameras.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Is the Department reviewing the locations for potential use of Hikvision equipment?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Army continues to review its security operations. One would like to think the Army knows a thing or two about security.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

One would be confident it does.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We can be confident it knows more about it than we do. I do not like second-guessing military expertise or, indeed, Garda expertise regarding the security of the State.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I am speaking about security systems, not security policy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

All procurement and use of security systems is kept under review, ultimately with the objective of being as secure as possible.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

My final question was about the increase in litigation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I want to respond first to the Deputy's question on cybersecurity. The Department of Defence is represented at the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence in Tallinn, Estonia. The centre is not actually run by NATO but is accredited by it. I was there last year. It is important that we are part of that endeavour because it deals at a very high level with all sorts of scenario planning in terms of what can happen when there are cyberattacks on utilities, states and so on. It is a whole-of-government challenge.

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications takes the lead role through the National Cyber Security Centre, with inputs in the security domain from An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces and the National Security Analysis Centre. We have made a lot of progress on cybersecurity in terms of investment and collaborating with other states across the world in respect of these issues, not least by sharing our experience of recent attacks on our health service. An Garda Síochána and others involved have been following through on those attacks and doing good investigative work that has been of use to the wider international community in looking at cybersecurity.

On the litigation and compensation question, we have not factored in any potential litigation in respect of the independent review, which will include a number of recommendations. There is some distance to go yet in that regard and it is not captured by the 2023 Estimates in any significant way.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Tánaiste.

Deputy John Brady

I have several issues to raise with the Tánaiste. The first concerns the current strength of the Permanent Defence Force. I welcome the new metric but it is bizarre that it is new. The output target for this year is to increase the numbers up to 8,600 from what is, in my estimation, an all-time low of 7,987 currently. Will the Tánaiste outline what plans are in place for immediate recruitment to increase the numbers from this all-time low?

Numbers within the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, are also in free fall. According to an article in one of the national newspapers during the week, the general secretary of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, stated that there are just 755 Army reservists who are active and who undertook paid training last year. It is estimated that we are 3,250 reservists below the establishment figure of 3,869. This major crisis in the reserves has long been highlighted.

It is not the first time we have heard about issues with RDF recruitment campaigns. The RDF's online application portal opened last year and was inundated. It had to be closed because of a shortage of resources to deal with the large number of applications. It is a matter of concern that many of those applicants lost interest and pulled out because of the failure to follow up on their expressions of interest about joining the RDF. I raised the matter with the Tánaiste's predecessor, the current Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, who acknowledged that it was a serious issue and said it would not happen again. Unfortunately, there is a reputation of failure in terms of following up quickly with people who express a desire to join the RDF. The Tánaiste might touch on this matter.

The target for the number of female members of the Defence Forces has remained static. It was 12% in 2021 and 2022, and it will be 12% in 2023. There is no ambition in this target whatsoever. We are acutely aware of major issues within the Defence Forces. While work is ongoing in respect of legacy issues, issues remain. Worryingly, the percentage of female inductees to the Permanent Defence Force in 2019 was 6.9% and increased to 7.8% in 2020, but it decreased to 7.6% in 2021. I am unsure as to whether we have a figure for 2022 and whether it shows there is a downward trend. The Tánaiste might provide an analysis of this matter.

Everyone is proud of the members of the Defence Forces who go on overseas deployments. Late last year, we saw how dangerous such deployments can be. It was highlighted by the representative organisations, and the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, that we are at risk of failing to meet our obligation to deploy members on missions. I asked the Tánaiste's predecessor about this. There is a crisis owing to the shortage in the number of Defence Forces members, including skilled personnel. Members of the Defence Forces are returning from overseas deployment only to then be randomly selected soon afterwards to go back. While deployment overseas is done on a voluntary basis, there is a mandatory selection to fill some positions. Bizarrely, the number of people who were mandatorily select was not recorded within the Defence Forces. I was told that a new process was going to be put in place and that that figure was going to be recorded. The situation is creating major tensions, particularly for personnel with young families who are selected again after returning home. The Tánaiste might update us on the number of mandatory selections for overseas duties. It is a serious issue within the Defence Forces.

Last year, there was a great deal of concern about Cathal Brugha barracks. One of the Tánaiste's Cabinet colleagues made a big announcement about how the barracks would be developed for housing. This caused significant concern within the Defence Forces. It later transpired that funding had been provided to carry out a feasibility study. We were told that this study would take between nine and 12 months. That was in January of last year. Does the Tánaiste have an update on the study? Has it been completed? Have all stakeholders been engaged on its outcome? Will the Tánaiste outline briefly the study's recommendations? The argument is that it is critical that the Defence Forces have Cathal Brugha barracks in the capital to deal with security risks and so on. False promises have been given to the Defence Forces previously about something being built in return for their barracks being taken, yet that something has never materialised.

I wish to ask about an article in The Journal about the Defence Forces' branding campaign. According to the article, approximately €140,000 was set aside for a tender for merchandising and branding. Is this part of an overall recruitment campaign? What is the intention behind the tender and branding?

It is a year since the publication of the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces. The committee will engage in a work programme. We hope to meet the new chair of the implementation body and other key stakeholders in that regard, but I wish to ask the Tánaiste for his views on certain aspects of the report. Many of its 130 recommendations were accepted in principle, but 17 were to go for further evaluation. Some of those 17 are important recommendations. Has the evaluation taken place? I am referring to the high-level action plan, under which ten other recommendations were to revert to the Government. The Tánaiste probably does not have the plan in front of him, but it reads: "The Minister [this used to be Deputy Coveney] favours implementation of these recommendations 2, 3, 4 and 5." Some of these are very important, for example, that the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service should become services, have service headquarters and have parity of esteem.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Could the Deputy say which recommendations again?

Deputy John Brady

Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, in the high-level action plan. I will not read them all out. I do not know whether the Tánaiste's colleagues have them.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Do they relate to the chief of defence, CHOD?

Deputy John Brady

Yes. These are the recommendations on the CHOD, the creation of a Defence Forces headquarters that would report to the CHOD, and the creation of three service chiefs.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The big stuff.

Deputy John Brady

Yes. I am just looking for the Tánaiste's view. According to the plan, the then Minister agreed broadly with these recommendations.

My next point relates to the commission's report but also ties in with one of the major issues within the Defence Forces. The Tánaiste highlighted that there had been significant improvements in terms of pay. He stated that a private might start off on €36,000. However, many members of the Defence Forces tell us openly that they are working 70-plus hours per week. Let us break that down. If they are working 70 hours per week, it means they are getting paid less than €10 per hour.

They are getting €9.89, which is below the minimum wage, but we do not know how many hours they are working because that is not recorded. There is no mechanism to record the number of hours worked. All we can go on is what members of the Defence Forces tell us, and I am certainly not going to second-guess them. One recommendation in the commission's report, which I raised with the Tánaiste on the floor of the House last week, relates to the implementation of the working time directive - a key ask of members of the Defence Forces. It was stated in the Government's response that within six months of it accepting the report, it would bring forward the heads of a Bill to implement that directive. What is the status of that and when will see the heads of a Bill to transpose the working time directive? It was stated last week that the Tánaiste had met some of the representative bodies regarding the working time directive. Will he update us on those conversations? When is it expected we will see the full implementation of the working time directive? We are dealing with the Estimates for this year but they contain no mention whatsoever of the directive. What immediate plans are there to record the working hours of members of the Defence Forces?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Deputy for his comments and questions. On recruitment to the Permanent Defence Forces, 435 personnel had been inducted, including 350 general service recruits, as of 31 December last, but, as I said earlier, that is not enough, not least in light of the number of retirements. There are difficulties relating to specialist skills and to those who develop specialist skills within the Defence Forces being poached or sought after by the private sector. Those are ongoing challenges. We are progressing a range of measures, including an ongoing scheme permitting former personnel with specialist skills to re-enter the Defence Forces, a review of the maximum recruitment age limits for all competitions, which I am accelerating, a campaign to re-enlist former enlisted personnel and recommission former officers, and direct entry recruitment, a campaign that is continuing and is under way.

The Deputy mentioned rebranding, and the branding tender is part of that to increase the profile. We have to increase the profile even more, as I have been saying openly and to military management and officials in respect of commissioned officers, COs, to give young people in our schools clear career pathways within our Defence Forces and to put them in front of them. I had a recent meeting with military management in respect of recruitment. It is an ongoing issue weekly to determine what we can do quickly to turn this around. I have been in the job about two months, and retention is a key focus for me parallel to the recruitment campaign, as it continues.

On the RDF, I met the representative group yesterday. It was a good meeting and they are very sincere, committed people, although they are concerned, to put it bluntly. I will meet military management on this and make clear this is a priority of mine. We want the objectives of the commission to be realised here. I have given instructions in respect of accelerating the processing of those who have applied to be recruited into the RDF. When I attended a presentation in respect of this matter on Monday, I was not happy that even on medicals, for example, it is just too slow. I have given instructions, therefore, that we conduct one tender for medicals, to be outsourced and done quickly. I accept what the Deputy is saying. If 1,000 apply to join the Defence Forces, it simply is not good enough that they would not be progressed more quickly than they have been. As far as I am concerned, the RDF is a very important component of the entire defence framework within the country. If people are willing to volunteer for it, we should be in a position to respond proactively and deliver for them. If we look at other countries of the European Union, such as Finland, although I am not advocating this, every young person there does two years of various kinds of service, because of the geopolitical circumstances that country has faced historically. Here, 1,000 people applied in one year and we are having difficulty processing that number. That is not tenable. I am being straight up. I have given instructions and said to my officials what I want done in respect of that.

Deputy John Brady

Does the Tánaiste have a figure for how many, of the 1,000 who applied, were processed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The campaign was launched in March of last year and 1,000 applications were received. Ninety additional new members were inducted in 2022, all of whom were inducted into the Army Reserve. The Defence Forces are responsible for ongoing recruitment to the RDF. I will meet the Chief of Staff and military management shortly in respect of this matter, and we will just have to move. They are very willing. To me, it is an important part of the issue, as per the commission’s recommendations.

The White Paper and the commission report contained recommendations on the future role and structure of the RDF. Prior to the meetings on Monday, we got confirmation from military management that an office of reserve affairs has been established to develop a regeneration plan for the Reserve and a colonel has been allocated to the post, which had not happened before this week. Planning by the military authorities has commenced to establish an office of reserve affairs, ORA, which will drive the further recommendations of the commission.

The Deputy asked for figures relating to female members and so on. Again, initiatives have been taken to increase the number of women joining the Defence Forces, such as the launch of a strategic campaign with a specific objective of increasing the induction of women into the organisation. In addition to traditional media, the campaign is supported by social media posts using serving female personnel who have shared their experiences. The military authorities further advise that potential applicants from ethnically diverse backgrounds are included in the target demographics the Defence Forces seek to reach in regular campaigns. In 2021, the proportion of those inducted who were women was 7.6%, while in 2022, that figure was 8.5%. Equivalent figures for the preceding years were 7.8% for 2020, 7.3% for 2019 and 8.2% in 2018. Ultimately, we want to improve those levels. Significant work is needed in respect of female induction and the progression of women within the Defence Forces, as well as on ensuring dignity, respect and so forth within the workplace and providing opportunities to reach the highest echelons of the Defence Forces. We are not there yet. The commission report, as the Deputy will be aware, recommends the creation of a full-time, senior-rank position of gender adviser with a dedicated staffing resource, the creation of a mechanism to ensure there is female participation at all meetings at general staff level, and setting an overall female participation rate of 35% to be achieved through a combination of entry-level inductions and civilianisation. A significant agenda, therefore, is ahead of us, but in respect of the first two recommendations, we have said we want them to be carried out as soon as possible.

We will revert with figures on the mandatory selection procedures. I am not clear as to whether the figures are yet available, but we will ask the military authorities about them.

I have not picked up a sense that there is an issue broadly with overseas deployment. I mentioned our participation in the EU battle group, which will be in 2024 and 2025. That may have implications, not for UNIFIL but we will have to examine other locations.

We see the battle group as a priority in terms of our participation in the Common Security and Defence Policy, CSDP, within Europe. Germany is leading this battle group. I wanted to make an early decision on this so there could be proper preparation for this battle group and we could signal to our German colleagues and our other colleagues in the EU that we would be participating, just as we have participated in battle groups since 2000. This may have implications for other forces, but this will be confirmed in the coming while.

Turning to Cathal Brugha barracks, the background to this is the housing crisis. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, has articulated a view. He would see the entire site as ideal for future housing development because of compact living and all the services being there, including utilities etc. On the other hand, the Defence Forces require a state-of-the-art barracks in the Dublin area. The Government has taken no decision on the relocation of Defence Forces' operations at Cathal Brugha barracks. That is the factual position. No decision has been made. Last year, however, the Department of Defence received funding of about €250,000 from the Department of An Taoiseach under the Housing for All implementation fund to engage consultants in undertaking a cost-benefit analysis, CBA, and feasibility study concerning the possible relocation of Cathal Brugha barracks. An interdepartmental steering group was established. The Deputy can see where this is going. This group is to oversee the CBA-feasibility study. A tender competition was run in late 2022. There are now negotiations under way in terms of the outcome of that tender. It will take approximately six months to complete the CBA-feasibility study. All relevant stakeholders will be briefed as the project progresses, including the Defence Forces' representative associations and civilian employees.

To give the Deputy my view, we have to protect the capability and capacity of the Defence Forces. The only possible quid pro quo in this context would be, before anything happens, the creation of a modern, bespoke state-of-the-art barracks for the Defence Forces prior to any change in the status of Cathal Brugha barracks. This is doable, by the way. We need joined-up thinking and people to stop thinking in silos within different Departments or establishments. This should be done comprehensively and professionally. I want this process accelerated a bit and I want to get an outcome regarding the feasibility of this suggestion. It is an idea that has now been articulated. I accept it can be unsettling to the personnel of the Defence Forces in terms of uncertainty. The bottom line, however, is that nothing will happen to Cathal Brugha barracks until an alternative barracks is in place. This is the bottom line.

This idea is not one we should turn our backs on, however. We are now in 2023 and the 21st century and we must be thinking in these terms. The instinct perhaps within the Defence Forces and the military is to say this is something we should not even consider and let us kill it now before it starts. I actually think, however, that this might be seen as an opportunity to be explored, and if people really want this site for something, then the question would be what they are prepared to do as an alternative. This would be my test for the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and everybody else, and I am someone committed to housing.

This is the only basis on which this discussion can be had. The morale of the Defence Forces is important. We cannot treat the Defence Forces as an organisation from which we can take resources and get by. This is not the case anymore. As far as I am concerned, our job now is to expand, increase the capability of, modernise and transform the Defence Forces culturally and right across all aspects. I do not mean this in a negative way but to do this in a positive way. This is how I am approaching this issue. I am telling people to get on with the feasibility study, tell us what the bottom line is here and then we will make decisions based on that information.

Deputy John Brady

The Tánaiste reckons the call for tender went out in October, so it will probably be March or April before we see something coming from this process.

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, the tender has come back.

Deputy John Brady

Yes. It went out in October, so in fairness-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

In fairness, I admire the skill of those who put the notes together. Having been around a while, I do read between them. I do not mean this in a bad way. Basically, the competition was run in late 2022 and a letter of acceptance issued. This is done. There are the pre-contract signing negotiations, which happen normally in situations like this. I give it six months from now, potentially.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. We should have some feedback by mid-summer.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

There is a housing crisis and we must all acknowledge it. Serious concern has also been expressed, however, by members of the Defence Forces. These must also be listened to as well.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

Up until this point it has been take, take, take-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is over.

Deputy John Brady

It is to be hoped it is. There are serious concerns in-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I know, and as the Minister for Defence I am saying it is over.

Deputy John Brady

-----the Defence Forces, and its members will articulate these points better than I will. I refer to the essential need for a military presence in the city centre, or as close to it as possible. Regarding any notion of putting this on the periphery, out in Kildare, and building something on the Curragh or somewhere like that, I do not think that would be a runner for anyone. There are strong arguments for having a city centre facility, or as close to it as possible. This is Cathal Brugha barracks. All these serious concerns and legitimate arguments must be listened to and taken on board. We await the-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The stakeholders are also very important. We are all presuming that everyone in Cathal Brugha barracks is living in and around there, but I would say a fair few people are travelling fair distances as well. The feasibility study, however, should bring out the views of stakeholders and the strategic concerns around the defence and security of the capital. All these issues must be taken on board.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Brady.

Deputy John Brady

There were a few more points.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Regarding the proposed CHOD, we could go on forever on this point but I have been clear on it. The matter went for legal opinion within the existing legislative framework, in terms of the chain of command essentially. It is time to get off the fence on this issue now, not that I was ever on it. The entire system must make decisions on this matter. Again, this comes in the context of the modernisation of the Defence Forces. I will be going back to the Government in this regard. There is further work to be done on this with my officials and with the military management.

This aspect goes back to 2016. A project team worked on this proposal and it spoke to people in like-minded countries in similar situations throughout Europe. It is interesting how our chain of command evolved from the 1920s in the context of the chain of command and structures we have now. I have clear views on this issue and I am not going to hang around. I will be going back to the Government, but I must also acknowledge that once we make the macro decision on what we want, there will also be a lot of detailed work required beneath that level to give effect to it. We must make a decision on this matter. We must give a lead and say this is where we are going in respect of the structure of our Defence Forces to create unity of purpose and to have a proper chain of command.

Turning to the organisation of working time directive, again I have been told I will be receiving a final management position. It will be submitted to me once the various talk processes that have been under way for some time conclude. The Secretary General and I have agreed this must happen. In fairness, what was said about what people feel in this regard was said in good faith. We must stop using the narrative of the minimum wage for the Defence Forces. It does not apply anymore. I take the Deputy's point that as long as we do not organise something like the organisation of working time directive, these things will get said. The rates of pay are as I have outlined and they have improved significantly. We must create a new narrative around working in the Defence Forces. It must be one that shows it is possible to go in from school at €36,000 or €40,000 after 18 months, or at €46,000 at graduate entry level. These are the new realities. We must change the dial a bit, and the next part of this is the organisation of working time directive. This is to ensure we do not get anecdotes or people saying they are doing 80 hours a week or whatever. We are putting pressure on to get the outcome of whatever due diligence has been going on.

I understand that those on the management side have to organise this and organise their people.

I understand that the majority of operations that go on in the Defence Forces at present are within the working time directive. When I was Minister for Health, everybody said the working time directive could not be implemented in the health service and the world would collapse. That is what everybody said. It did not collapse and we got it organised. The same has to happen here. We just have to move on it and we will. That covers most of what the Deputy raised.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I wish the Tánaiste and his team a good afternoon. It is good to have them on board. I wish he was just the defence Minister rather than having other responsibilities as well, but that is, unfortunately, the way of things at present.

This is our third set of Estimates. They are obviously not perfect in any shape or form but they are the best of the three we have seen so far. There are some good things in them. I draw the Tánaiste's attention to the €5 million allocation for private medical treatment for enlisted personnel, which is very important. It has been talked about for years. Many of our troops do not work in a nice environment such as this room. They jump off stuff, blow things up and get injured. They either languish on public health waiting lists for years or they pay for their own back, knee or hip surgery. That allocation is very important. Is there any indication of when this year that will come in? The Estimates state there are negotiations between the Department of Defence and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform at present. It would be great if we could fast-track that. To follow on from Deputy Clarke's point, it would reduce litigation. Many of the troops have to litigate because they owe between €5,000 and €7,000 for surgery and litigation is the only way they can get it back. That is a very important proposal and a very progressive and positive step.

On the Air Corps, two maritime patrol aircraft are due this summer. That is a quarter of a billion euro investment, which is excellent. It will transform what Ireland is capable of doing over the Atlantic, which is very positive. Some press reports over Christmas indicated that a third aircraft had been ordered and a contract might have been signed for it. This would be a troop transport-type utility CASA C295. Will the Tánaiste inform us whether that is true? If it is, will we get a third CASA C295 in 2025? That is a massive capability jump. We have never had that capability in the 100-year history of the State.

The multi-role vessel, MRV, which will replace the LÉ Eithne, is also very positive. I notice the ship has no name yet. I am sure there will be a competition for that. Many people in Athy are keen that LÉ Shackleton is the name that should be used. He was an expedition-type leader and, if it is purchased, this will be an expedition-type vessel. We will obviously have to get personnel to crew the ship. It is to be hoped that will be a chicken-and-egg scenario where, if the proper, modern equipment is provided, that will attract people to join.

The doubling of the built infrastructure investment from €29 million to €55 million is again very positive. It is a drop in the ocean, as the Tánaiste knows. Many of the barracks built by the British 150 years ago are crumbling. It is good that the investment has doubled but it needs to double again in October and double once again in the following budget.

Those are all the positives. I have a couple of concerns. The first relates to the so-called, inappropriately named, pay savings of €30 million. I agree with the Department's Secretary General, Ms Jacqui McCrum, on this. There was a report in the media on 1 January, about seven weeks ago, where journalist Ken Foxe got hold of correspondence between what was then the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Defence. Ms McCrum quite rightly described as unexpected the removal of that €30 million pay-saving arrangement. She described it as grossly inequitable, stating "It is my very strong view that it is grossly inequitable to seek to change these arrangements midway through the National Development Plan". She indicated it was a bombshell suggestion. I have already described how if the Defences Forces are given apparatus money, they will spend it excellently and appropriately. The Tánaiste stated that €1.21 billion had been allocated for defence. When I went through the accounts, however, they came up €30 million short. I presume that €1.21 billion is a gross figure and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform might take €30 million back. It would be great to hold on to that €30 million. We know we desperately need it. If it is being taken back, there is a very strong case for a Supplementary Estimate later in the year because the money, as the Tánaiste knows, is desperately needed.

On pay measures, I take the Tánaiste's point that there has been some improvement for some people who have less than three years' service. However, there is a group of people who are regularly forgotten about. I spoke to the Tánaiste's predecessor as Minister who was surprised to hear there were people in the Defence Forces who were on gross salaries that are less than €20,000. These are the apprentices, who were not really considered by the Commission on the Defence Forces as it was very time limited in what it could do. For their first two years, apprentices earn under €20,000 gross. They do not get military service allowance, MSA. Perhaps the Tánaiste will look at that. There has been an MSA-equalisation - that is the terminology used - whereby everybody in the enlisted ranks should get the same MSA. That should also be extended to apprentices. We have heard anecdotes about entire apprentice classes being bought out. The best way to counteract that is to provide them with a living wage. That is probably-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is that to buy them back?

Deputy Cathal Berry

To buy them back, yes.

I take the Tánaiste's point about increasing the basic wage for people with less than three years' service, but people with more than three years' service are my next focus. A recommendation in the high-level action plan indicated that the patrol duty allowance for the Naval Service should be reviewed. It is why the Naval Service is at a historic low as regards crewing at present. We hear talk of patrol duty allowance possibly being doubled sometime this year. Is that true? When are we likely to get a decision on it? If that allowance were to be doubled, it would make a significant improvement from a retention and recruitment perspective.

On long-service increments, improvements have been made to the salaries of people with less than three years' service. What about the people with more than three years' service? There was a recommendation in the Commission on the Defence Forces report and in the high-level action plan that long-service increments be introduced. When are we likely to see that? A recommendation was made for approximately 800 new lance corporal positions. Again, that would give people a little more of a leg-up on pay. When are we likely to see that?

I am not sure how familiar the Tánaiste is with the army nursing service. The Estimates indicate that €800,000 has been allocated to nursing services. These are agency nurses. An agency nurse in Kilkenny, who has worked in the Defence Forces for the past ten years, has effectively been on a 24-hour contract over that period. We have asked about the nursing review for a number of years. We were told by the Minster's predecessor that it almost done and would be completed by the end of the year, but it still has not been done. I suggest that instead of hiring expensive agency nurses on a 24-hour rolling basis, we just hire and employ these people properly and give them proper contracts. We will end up saving money, making people much happier and providing a better service.

To double down on what Deputy Brady said, a comment on page 4 of the Estimates references the defence (amendment) Bill 2023. It states the heads of the Bill are prepared. Is there any indication of when they will be published? Can we get access to them? I specifically ask about this because there is obviously an issue regarding deploying military personnel on close protection duties where there is no UN Security Council resolution. There is a possibility, this week or next week, of an amendment to the Civil Defence Bill, which also comes under the Department of Defence umbrella. There is a possibility of using that as an amendment mechanism to amend the Defence Act.

Those are all my questions. The Tánaiste may not have all the answers to hand but we can follow up during the week.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I appreciate the positive comments the Deputy made in respect of some elements of the Estimates. He is correct that, in December 2022, a contract was awarded to Airbus Defence and Space for the provision of a new fixed-wing military transport aircraft for the Defence Forces. The Airbus C295 is highly versatile, as the Deputy said. It will be a dedicated asset to support the Defence Forces military airlift transport requirements and provide a wide contingent capability, enabling the Air Corps to provide logistical support and transport of troops and equipment, medical evacuation, an air ambulance and a general utility role. I will not go through the costs, which are significant, but delivery is expected in 2025.

My apologies, the cost calculation has been done and it is about €68 million, which is significant.

The inland patrol vessels, IPVs, were purchased from New Zealand for €26 million on a government-to-government basis. They will be transported to Ireland in quarter 2 of this year, following a programme of works to restore the vessels to Lloyd's Register classification standards and to fit Naval Service equipment. The Deputy would like the replacement to be named Shackleton. We will feed in that idea. I have no doubt other names will come forward as well.

On the figure of between €29 million and €59 million for built infrastructure, I acknowledge the Deputy's point. As we increase from a lower base, capacity will be needed to deliver the capital and get the projects done. We will be seeking to increase that progressively.

I did not read all the articles about the pay savings issue but certainly it was done in the last Estimates process as part of negotiations between the two Ministers last year. However, it must be said the broad thrust is to increase the budget overall. I will not argue the perspective of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, but I presume its argument was that we were not dealing with real numbers at nine and a half, compared with what the reality was in real terms. As I said, the ceiling is in place so we can grow that without any negotiations. We must fulfil the commission's recommendations. There is a clear Government commitment to increase investment in the Defence Forces both from a capital perspective and the current perspective.

I will take on board the Deputy's suggestion about apprentices. I am keen on apprentices. In recent years, the Government has made a lot of progress on apprenticeships generally. I believe there has been a 40% increase in the number of apprenticeships in the construction sector. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has made a lot of progress and is anxious that the public service become stronger on apprenticeships than it is. Some of the State agencies are not as strong as they should be on recruiting apprentices. We certainly should be in the Defence Forces. We will examine what we can do to improve the overall experience and attractiveness of an apprenticeship in the Defence Forces.

The €30 million figure the Deputy referred to is an appropriation-in-aid. The gross Estimate is between €1.2 billion and €1.6 billion. We are still considering the lance corporal issue. Discussions are ongoing with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on a whole range of issues the Deputy referenced. I will take on board what he said about apprenticeships and endeavour to progress it.

I will also look at the Army nurse issue.

Deputy Cathal Berry

It is ridiculous.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It seems that way but sometimes when we make a post permanent, it is difficult to recruit for it. Some people prefer working for agencies. I will look at the issue. The Deputy knows more than I do, given his experience with the medical board of our Defence Forces.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Most countries deploy their nurses overseas and agency nurses cannot be deployed overseas.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is correct. I met advanced nursing practitioners and paramedics in Lebanon recently who were thrilled with their roles in the Defence Forces. I will look at it to see what the best model is to ensure we attract and recruit people into those roles in a sustainable way.

The Naval Service patrol duty allowance is one of the issues we are discussing with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The review has been done and the submission made. I have to deal with a number of issues in the next round of negotiations with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I should acknowledge, however, that a significant amount was approved in the past year and so on. We must build on that now and we will.

On the private medical issue, the full year cost of is approximately €10 million and the €5 million allocation reflects a starting point. Discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform are not complete, but it is something I am keen on. The Deputy has articulated the case well. We will come back to him when the matter is finalised.

The heads of the Bill are prepared. I know which issue the Deputy is referring to. Is he saying someone from the Opposition will table an amendment?

Deputy Cathal Berry

If it would be helpful, or if the Minister needs someone to do so, we will certainly table an amendment.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thought the Deputy was suggesting that would happen. I am not requesting it. I would prefer it to be done in the context of the Bill if it is imminent.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I would agree if the Bill were imminent but it could be months down the tracks. We could make full use of the Civil Defence Bill 2023.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will come back to the Deputy on that question. It is an issue we need to resolve.

Chairman

Before I call Deputy Clarke to ask her supplementary questions, I acknowledge that this is our first engagement with the Tánaiste as Minister for Defence. I welcome his practical approach. I have noted in the course of his replies the use of such terms as "21st century", "reform", "investment" and "modernisation". He will find his relationship with this committee to be constructive. We lack the adversarial combat of the Dáil Chamber in our questioning, but that is not to suggest that Deputies Brady, Clarke or Berry are anything other than deeply interested in an improved situation for our Defence Forces.

The Minister has come to his office at the end of a crucial year with respect to Ireland's defence, not least given the outbreak of war in Europe, on our territory, and the coincidence of the groundbreaking report of the commission. Over the course of the past 12 months, this committee has been on its own manoeuvres. We had the opportunity to visit Haulbowline naval base, Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, and the Curragh Camp. It is fair to say that what we saw and experienced does not paint a pretty picture of our defence forces. There is no doubt the Minister will have heard in the past few weeks that morale is low and there is an expectation that matters will change considerably.

This time last year, we had a national embarrassment off our south-west coast when we saw manoeuvres by Russia that were a prelude to the unlawful invasion of Ukraine. That has changed matters considerably as far as the Irish people's thinking on defence is concerned. It undoubtedly must have changed thinking in the Government. It is more than ten years since there was a stand-alone Minister for Defence. We know the reason for the dual role. We accept it is due to the constitutional embargo on increasing the number of ministerial seats, but it adds to the Minister's engagement in a way. The committee expects to see progress over the course of the next year. The Tánaiste's tenure as Minister for Defence is likely to be much the same as the tenure of this committee, which is a maximum of two years. The committee expects to be able to work together with him over the course of those two years to ensure the recommendations in the report of the commission are dealt with in a timely and appropriate manner that ensures the momentum of the past 12 months with regard to the Irish people taking defence more seriously than was the case heretofore will not be lost.

That will be a considerable undertaking.

As the Minister will have seen in his previous role as Taoiseach, there is a lot of fear across European capitals about possible interference by Russia with energy cables and communication connections. These fears are grounded in a series of reported incidents. We are somewhat vulnerable in this jurisdiction, with particular reference to the transatlantic cables. I think the Minister will agree with the committee, as we have stated on numerous occasions, that it is important that Ireland play its part as regards a European dimension and that we have our own defence capability and capacity. That, in itself, is a challenging task.

While we welcome the investment commitments, we need to ensure they are implemented urgently. The Minister mentioned pay and conditions in his replies to Deputies Clarke, Brady and Berry but we saw at first hand in Haulbowline the inducements the private sector is offering Naval Service personnel. We note post Covid, for example, that even the cruise ship industry is actively poaching experienced and expert members of the Defence Forces and is able to provide them with inducements that the State cannot. That is a worry. It is important that we see investment in areas such as primary radar, which has been raised this year by Deputies Clarke, Brady and Berry and others, this year. We seek the Minister's assistance in that regard.

There is no doubt that the invasion of Ukraine by Russia has in many respects exposed Ireland as being somewhat tardy and lax in terms of our engagement with the Defence Forces. We are not engaging in any disrespectful commentary when we say that morale is low among the Defence Forces. We have seen and heard that and I have no doubt the Minister has seen and heard it over the past few weeks. We want to work with him to ensure the long-awaited and badly-needed programme of investment is implemented. As Deputy Brady stated, the committee will engage with the implementation group and we will continue to engage with the Department of Defence.

We look forward to a further, active and closely monitored engagement with the Minister and his officials but time is not on our side. This will be a crucial year in terms of the implementation of the plan. I have no doubt we will have further constructive engagement on this with the Tánaiste in the next few months.

Deputy Clarke has a specific supplementary question.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I do. The Chair was correct to mention the morale of the Defence Forces and Deputy Berry was correct to refer to apprentices. When we were on one of our excursions, I remember speaking with one apprentice who told me of having to turn down a social engagement in the run-up to pay day due to not having the price of a bag of chips. This was a single young person with no family responsibilities and no children to look after. It is correct to put that on the record.

I have two specific questions, one of which relates to apprenticeships. In the context of the battle group the Minister mentioned, it is my understanding that apprenticeships in the Defence Forces will be paused for six months for a training exercise that is due to be completed in November. Is that the 2024-25 German-led battle group? If so, what will be the impact on the Defence Forces of pausing those apprenticeships?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Where are they being paused?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Pardon me.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Which apprenticeships are being paused or is it all of them?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I am referring specifically to the Army.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That would certainly not be as a result of the battle group.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Is it true that they are to be paused? If so, what will be the impact?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have not been made aware of that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Will the Minister brief the committee, possibly in writing, on whether that is the case and what will be the impact of such a pause on output?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes. I will come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

It is also my understanding that a temporary pause was put in place on the mandatory retirement of post-1994 corporals and privates. Is that still in place or has it been rescinded?

Deputy Micheál Martin

What is the pause?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

It is on the mandatory retirement of corporals and privates. That was a pro tem mandatory retirement age.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will come back to the Deputy on that. Does it relate to post 1994? My officials are not aware of any pause. There was an extension to 2024.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Has that been rescinded?

Deputy Micheál Martin

No. That is a holding situation, which we obviously want to expand and confirm permanently. I want to do more. That is a matter for discussions between me and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I might be able to answer that, if that is of any use.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There was an extension in service limits for privates and corporals who were recruited to the Permanent Defence Force after 1 January 1994 to remain in service until up to 50 years of age, subject to them meeting certain criteria, including medical fitness. That agreement was done. In October 2022, the Minister for Defence secured an interim arrangement from the then Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, as I said, allowing for the retention in service of sergeants in the Permanent Defence Force who were due to be retired on age grounds until the end of 2024. This means that those sergeants who were recruited after 1 January 1994 and would be due to retire on the basis of the mandatory retirement age this year and next will not be required to do so until the end of 2024.

The recommendations in the review of barriers to extended participation in the Permanent Defence Force, which relate to non-commissioned officer ranks and commissioned officers, will be considered in the forum of an interdepartmental work group which the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has established to consider mandatory retirement ages and service limits for public service groups which have fast-accrual occupations. I am working on this issue as we speak. That was the position before I took office. I will take the matter out of the interdepartmental and bring it back to a defence-specific approach because of the crisis in recruitment within the Defence Forces. Retention is a key element of that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The Minister mentioned sergeants specifically. Does this apply only to sergeants?

Deputy Micheál Martin

In December 2021, the then Minister for Defence secured agreement with the then Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform allowing for an extension in service limits for privates and corporals who were recruited to the Permanent Defence Force after 1 January 1994 to remain in service up to 50 years of age. Sergeants recruited after 1994 then got an extension up to 2024.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

To be clear, does the extension to the end of 2024 that applies to sergeants also apply to corporals and privates?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Not as of now.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I would definitely back up Deputy Clarke on that issue. The biggest issue in the Defence Forces is pay. The second biggest, as Deputy Clarke pointed out, is contracts that are not fit for purpose. We go to such great efforts to recruit people but then effectively sack them at the age of 50 if they are privates or corporals. There are seven of these people on "death row", as they describe it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I know.

Deputy Cathal Berry

They have been in touch with me.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

It is counterintuitive.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I know. I have only been Minister for two months.

Deputy Cathal Berry

If we want to improve retention rates, amending the Defence Forces regulation that requires a ministerial signature is an obvious first place to start. It is low-hanging fruit.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes, but this was part of an interdepartmental review. Anything to do with retirements and so on in fast accrual pension services is not just exclusive to the Department of Defence. It has broader implications. However, given the particular situation we find ourselves in regarding recruitment and numbers, we cannot wait for the outcome of an interdepartmental review.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I agree.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is my view and I will be in negotiations with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on this issue.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I am getting the strong impression that the Tánaiste agrees with what I have said.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Deputy was asking whether there was a pause. There is no pause. This is the reality of where we are. In other words, the historic position has been that there was mandatory retirement, people retired early. My own view is that demographically, the world has changed. I have to have due respect for my own negotiating processes with my colleagues in government. The point I am trying to make is that the world has changed; we are fitter and living longer. That should now be reflected in the mandatory retirement age. There was not a pause on anything. In fact, it was an extension. To be fair, the outgoing Minister secured it for sergeants, which is progress, but that is only until 2024. Our view is we need to extend that to include corporals as well

Deputy Sorca Clarke

What action does the Tánaiste intend to take because I am getting the strong impression that he agrees this is an anomaly that needs to be fixed,

Deputy Micheál Martin

I refer the Deputy to my earlier comments. On the recruitment side there are two issues. The more immediate one is retention. Retention is one of the key areas, as Deputy Berry has said, that could give us an immediate dividend of holding onto people and reducing the exit from the Defence Forces more generally. While we did recruit last year we lost nearly double the number of people we recruited. If we can reduce the number we lose and keep on recruiting, we will get into a better position.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I want to focus on the specifics of this case. Is it the Tánaiste's intention to amend the situation as it currently stands for corporals and privates?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is part of an ongoing process of engagement between the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and me. I cannot unilaterally make decisions, as the Deputy will appreciate

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Does the Tánaiste have an estimated timeline for when that work will be completed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not the only issue. There is a range of issues I have to engage with now, around retention in particular. I envisage looking at all of those in a one-set approach. What tends to happen here is, over the years, all these issues get into a sort of engagement, either conciliation and arbitration, or a kind of a big ping-pong, an ongoing discussion between the Departments of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and Defence. However, I am making the point that the crisis is such that we have to move much faster. I will not give the Deputy a timeline. There is a process in place and I have to engage in it. This is not the only issue. There is a range of issues.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

What I am trying to ascertain is the number of members who will be approaching this deadline for mandatory retirement while the conversation is going on about potentially keeping them in situ.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I do not have that figure with me. However, right now some people are saying it could be seven to ten people who literally have weeks to go or will be leaving in a short time if something doesn't happen.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Will the Tánaiste come back to me on the issue of the pausing of apprenticeships?

Deputy Micheál Martin

No one has alerted me to the pausing of apprenticeships but yes, I will come back to the Deputy on it.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I definitely back up the Deputy, who is well able to speak for herself. I think she might be suggesting that what would be helpful, if there are seven people in this position, that a pause be put on anybody being sacked pending-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

"Sacking" is a terrible word, Deputy.

Deputy Cathal Berry

That is the reality. That is what they are saying to me. This does not happen in any other part of the public service where one hits the age of 50 and is forced to retire. In fact, the opposite is happening in the public service. If these people are fit, able, willing and skilled, we want to keep hem. If the review is going to take couple of months, it would be helpful if we could have a stay of execution so that nobody would be forced out beforehand. That would certainly be helpful, if that is what the Tánaiste was suggesting.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Deputy is very polite. He has now turned the question "Has there been a pause?" to "Would you pause it?"

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I think the Tánaiste will agree a solution needs to found

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is a fair point by the Deputy and I will follow that up.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

This cohort of people is due to leave and they will do so taking considerable experience and a phenomenal amount of knowledge and capability with them. If there is a solution available, it should be implemented.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The point is well made.

Chairman

A specific question before we move on from Vote 36 and Vote 35. It comes under subhead A14. I am not seeking an answer now but I would like a note from the Department on the following matter in respect of subhead A14, which is the matter of uniforms, clothing and equipment in respect of the specific issue of Army boots and footwear. I understand there is a requirement across Government regarding procurement, that consideration be given to low carbon products. I want a specific note on the use or otherwise, of low carbon boots and footwear in the Army. I understand it is now possible to get a zero carbon boot. I am formally raising the point because I am not sure of the relationship between this Department, or any Department, and the Office of Public Procurement under the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and whether something like this actually feeds into that arrangement. I would like a note of clarification, if possible.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is a very good point.

Chairman

I think we have exhausted Vote 36. We will move briefly to Vote 35 but we have dealt with some of those issues anyway. Vote 35 deals specifically with the provision of the pension benefit but I think we made reference to that in the course of questions anyway. Does Deputy Berry have a question on that?

Deputy Cathal Berry

I welcome the increase in the pension allocation. Some of the language used, that these payouts are non-discretionary and demand-driven, I agree with to a certain extent. We need to realise that the number of people who leave the Defence Forces is within our control. Our preference would be that our service people stay in service, rather than transition into the pension path. There are 13,000 pensioners, and fewer than 8,000 active members of the Defence Forces. Our priority should be to keep people in service rather than to get them to leave and become pensioners.

In relation to the Reserve Defence Force, there is a question mark over how we get it up to strength. I think the solution is very simple. It is provided for in legislation and in regulation already. Members of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, who are retiring should just be able to slip seamlessly into the Reserve Defence Force and populate that, should they wish. It is actually easier to do that because if someone is leaving the Defence Forces they have to be out-processed and hand back all their kit. All they need to do is transition to the Reserve Defence Force. In fact, the Reserve Defence Force units are actually embedded in the Defence Forces. For instance, in the 3rd Infantry Battalion in Kilkenny, most of the companies are Permanent Defence Force and one of them is Reserve Defence Force. People could even stay in the same unit. For example, when I left the Permanent Defence Force, nobody asked me whether I wanted to move to the Reserve. While it is provided for in legislation and regulation, there is no mechanism to do so. We could repopulate and regenerate the Reserve Defence Force within 18 months if that system was brought in. Then the Reserve Defence Force could be deployed overseas because it contained former PDF members. That is a very plausible solution.

When a pensioner dies, generally speaking, their pension continues to be paid for about one or two or three weeks afterward before it is stopped by the people in Renmore and rightly so. However, they generally write a fairly curt letter to the deceased family. There is not even an expression of sympathy for the passing of the pensioner. The letter just mentions if an overpayment was made and arrangements for reimbursement for say, €300. The deceased is referred to in very curt terms. Is it worth splitting hairs over €300, particularly when families have paid for funeral expenses? There is probably no need to recoup it in the first instance if it is just a couple of hundred euro. If there is a need, perhaps the standard letter could be made a bit more humane.

It would make a difference. That is all I have to say about pensions.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will certainly follow up on that point with regard to the Reserve Defence Force. I do not have an issue with that. I would have thought it was fairly obvious. Much of this has to do with the prioritisation of the Reserve Defence Force and seeing it as a real objective component part of what we are about in the 21st century. Where there is a will there is a way. It would seem to be a very logical position to adopt to allow for a seamless move. As we witnessed yesterday in our discussions with the representative groups, there are very fine people who are in full-time jobs who want to give service to the country. It is our job and the job of the military to make sure that we respond to that request and to facilitate a strong Reserve. I will certainly pursue it but there has to be a will there. We need to ensure that there will be.

Deputy Cathal Berry

Absolutely and sometimes the line is trotted out, obviously in good faith, that the reason there is a recruitment problem in the Permanent Defence Force is because of the strong buoyant economy. People can have a job in the strong buoyant economy and still be a member of the Reserve Defence Force. This is where we can certainly target. It is a factor but it is not the dominant factor. This is certainly an option for the future.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Deputies for their constructive engagement and I appreciate what the Chair said with regard to everybody here having one objective, which is to advance and support the transformation and modernisation of our Defence Forces.

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Tánaiste and the officials for attending and dealing with members' questions and observations.