Select Committee on Justice debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jan 2024

Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Apologies have been received from Deputy Daly, who will be substituted by Deputy Martin Kenny. The Chairman has been unavoidably delayed and has asked me to chair the meeting in his stead, which I hope is agreeable to members. This meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána, Vote 21 - Prisons, Vote 22 - Courts Service, Vote 24 - Justice, Vote 41 - Policing Authority, and Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission. I thank the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and her officials for attending and assisting us in our consideration of the Revised Estimates. We are grateful for their provision of information related to these Estimates. I will invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement, after which I will invite members to make a contribution. As per normal proceedings, we will consider each Vote before moving on to the next one and refer to the relevant subheads which make up the Revised Estimates. We can then have some brief closing remarks on each Vote, if necessary. I remind members that, in accordance with Standing Orders, our discussions should be confined to the items contained within the Revised Estimates. I also remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in a way to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Helen McEntee)

The last time I was here, I took the brief as read but I think it would be helpful to go through it this time. The Department of Justice Vote group, which underpins an extensive ongoing investment to support work right across the justice sector, provides for gross expenditure of €3.637 billion across the six Votes in my Department and the justice sector, €3.363 billion of which relates to current expenditure and €274 million in capital expenditure this year. In addition, capital moneys totalling €17.4 million have been carried over to 2024, bringing the total capital allocation available this year to €291.4 million.

I will set out in some detail the key developments in the Revised Estimates As the committee will be aware, one of the main objectives of the funding is to build stronger, safer communities. The budgetary allocation will strengthen the work of An Garda Síochána and the criminal justice sector to prevent and detect crime and protect communities; facilitate Cuan, Ireland’s new statutory agency to support victims and work to eliminate domestic, sexual and gender-based violence; and fund the nationwide roll-out of community safety partnerships.

Continuing to grow and strengthen An Garda Síochána is at the core of this effort. I am determined to continue to provide front-line gardaí with the support and resources they need to ensure communities around Ireland are safe and feel safe. I am pleased to say the gross allocation for An Garda Síochána is €2.36 billion. This totals 65% of the funding for the entire Vote group and includes a substantial capital allocation of €166 million. This capital allocation includes €97 million for Garda ICT, thereby continuing to reform and enhance the ICT systems, which require continual capital investment to ensure gardaí have the equipment and technology they need to carry out their jobs. We continue to support the Commissioner to invest in sophisticated systems for analysis and criminal investigations and to respond to specialist types of crime. This includes upgrading platforms and infrastructure and the continuing development of GardaSAFE, which is the new computer-aided dispatch system that was deployed nationally in 2023 and provides for enhanced victim response, responder safety and data quality.

There is a capital allocation of €57.3 million for the capital building and refurbishment programme. This will fund the OPW to continue the wide range of capital programme works in 2024. With an estate of more than 700 buildings, significant works are required constantly to improve and modernise it. The list of specific stations includes Portlaoise and Macroom, which are divisional headquarters. The Garda stations being developed are Bailieborough in County Cavan, Newcastle West in County Limerick, and Clonmel in County Tipperary. In addition, it will cover some investment in solar panels as part of the AGS climate action roadmap.

There is a capital allocation of €10 million for transport. This includes the purchase of vehicles, continuing investment in the Garda transport fleet. It covers the deployment of electric vehicles to ensure An Garda Síochána continues to maintain a modern, effective and fit-for-purpose fleet.

There will be €1 million in capital for the air support unit. In 2023, contracts were signed for the delivery of two aircraft. A total of €21 million has been spent to date, with some of the balance due in 2024. The fixed-wing aircraft investment will provide a new fully equipped plane with the requisite reliability and enhanced capabilities to support policing and security operations while the helicopter will provide a longer range, high-capacity utility aircraft that is fully equipped with Garda mission equipment. These coupled investments will offer consistent, effective and dynamic support to national units in Border policing and the investigation of espionage, terrorism, organised crime gangs, human and drug trafficking, kidnapping and fuel smuggling or laundering.

In the region of 88% of the Garda current expenditure budget is on pay and pensions. I am pleased the funding for 2024 provides for the further recruitment of between 800 and 1,000 new gardaí and 250 additional Garda staff, which will free up more gardaí for front-line duties. I am also pleased a new recruitment campaign for the Garda Reserve will focus on a broad and inclusive range of candidates, who will provide a visible and practical form of community engagement and support. As colleagues will be aware, the new Garda recruitment campaign was launched two weeks ago and runs to 8 February. I urge anyone with an interest to go to publicjobs.ie and make an application. As part of budget 2024, I was delighted to secure agreement to fund a substantial increase of more than 60% in the training allowance payable to Garda trainees, bringing it to €305 per week. The competition has also seen the maximum age of recruitment rise from 35 years to 50. These are challenging times, but we want to do what we can to ensure we can open recruitment up to as many as possible. An overtime budget of €134 million has been provided for 2024. This includes ongoing support for high-visibility policing to tackle crime and antisocial behaviour. The organisation's capacity will be further strengthened by the recruitment of additional Garda staff, including to specialist roles to support the investigation of crime and enhance the management of An Garda Síochána.

Road safety is a shared responsibility and one this Government takes seriously. We have all been extremely saddened by the loss of life on Ireland’s roads and concerned by the worrying increase in such fatalities after many years of progress on our roads. Road traffic legislation is enforced by the roads policing units but also as part of the routine day-to-day duties of members of An Garda Síochána. To assist with this, the Government is fully committed to providing the funding needed to continue to ramp up Garda recruitment. There will be an additional €3.6 million for GoSafe speed cameras, continuing the increased level of 9,000 hours per month throughout 2024.

The budgetary allocation for 2024 also includes €6 million provided for Garda well-being initiatives, additional medical costs and more than 2,500 units of body armour.

I thank the members and staff of An Garda Síochána for their exemplary service to their communities and ours. The public and I are grateful to gardaí for their outstanding dedication and commitment.

The justice Vote has a gross Estimate provision of €616.9 million. The budget is broken down into two separate programmes - criminal justice and civil justice - and comprises almost 50 separate subheads, including support for a number of agencies. Budget 2024 enables a number of key priorities to be advanced and additional resources provided to agencies and programmes in the civil and criminal justice sectors.

I am delighted the new statutory domestic, sexual and gender-based violence agency, Cuan, became operational on 1 January and started with an overall allocation of €59 million. An interim CEO has been appointed pending the permanent appointment of a CEO, which is being finalised at the moment. Developing and running national awareness-raising campaigns is an obligation under the Istanbul Convention. To date, our campaigns raising awareness of all forms of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and signposting victims to supports have consistently scored well for impact, which is why there is additional funding in this year's budget.

Youth justice funding has been increased by €6.2 million to €30 million, providing resources to deliver the key objectives in the youth justice strategy. There was an additional €4.4 million to the Probation Service, which will provide for additional staffing and the development of new programmes that work with offenders in the Probation Service to encourage rehabilitation and reintegration. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission received almost €3 million in additional funding, bringing its total to €19.6 million. This reflects the commission’s increased workload in terms of volume and complexity and equips it for the establishment of its own Vote under the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill later this year. The office of the independent examiner has received funding of €760,000. Funding of €2.75 million will support a new national office for community safety, which will be responsible for the roll-out of community safety partnerships. The Gambling Regulatory Authority received additional funding of €2.3 million to support the work to establish the new authority. The community safety innovation fund, which was established in 2022, received a further increase of €1.3 million. Complementing this, the Criminal Assets Bureau received a total allocation €11.9 million.

Funding has been allocated for a 10% increase in criminal legal aid rates, effective from 1 January. This was the €9 million allocated in the budget. Funding for the Legal Aid Board amounted to €53.6 million in 2023. I was pleased to secure an additional €5.6 million in the Revised Estimates Volume, REV, for this year, bringing its allocation to in excess of €59 million. This is primarily to recruit new staff, increase investment in ICT and provide for additional costs directly related to the increase in immigration applications.

As members will be aware, the EU temporary protection directive was activated by the European Council in response to the Russian aggression against Ukraine on 24 February 2022. Section 60 of the International Protection Act 2015 gives effect to the directive in national law. As the war continues to give rise to many challenges, especially for the Ukrainian people, the temporary protection directive has been extended. Additional non-core funding of €34 million has been allocated to continue the work of the International Protection Office, the International Protection Appeals Tribunal and the Legal Aid Board and continue the focus on the humanitarian response to the Ukraine situation. This will build on the major progress made in tackling backlogs and will support the significant reforms already achieved. The International Protection Appeals Tribunal received funding of €9.2 million, representing a significant increase of €4.5 million to support the further expansion of administrative staff and decision-makers so that we can have decisions processed as quickly as possible. During 2023, the number of people claiming international protection increased significantly, with 13,277 applications made to the International Protection Office. This was a slight decrease on 2022. Nonetheless, it was a significant increase on years gone by, which is why this funding is essential.

Turning to the prisons Vote, the gross Estimate in 2024 is €445.9 million, which includes a capital allocation of €30.5 million. This new funding will see more prison officers recruited and 65,000 additional hours to meet the challenges of managing an increasing population in our prisons in a safe, secure and humane manner. It will also provide additional specialist staff in a number of areas, including to deliver on our commitment to provide more than 600 new prison spaces over the next five years. Funding has been provided to cover increases in costs in the operation of the Prison Service, such as catering, clothing, laundry, utilities and medical costs. That said, some of the above pressures on costs are mitigated by the reduced requirement in respect of Covid funding as well as other areas of reduced requirements, for example, compensation claims. As with the Garda, I acknowledge the collective efforts of, and considerable amount of work done by, the Prison Service staff and management and all of those who work with offenders in the service.

Regarding the courts Vote, a total Estimate in gross terms of almost €185.5 million is being provided for the courts in addition to an amount of €1 million in carry-over of unspent capital from last year.

The allocation of a further €1.4 million for the progression of e-probate and other elements of the courts modernisation programme is to simplify the processes in court proceedings and make the services more accessible to everyone. This builds on the courts modernisation programme funding already received in the Estimates for last year and the previous year. The Courts Service modernisation programme is a ten-year programme that will deliver a new operating model for the Courts Service, delivered through digital solutions and designed around users, with simplified and standardised services and accessible data to inform decisions. Funding of €1.4 million has been provided for up to 35 additional staff to directly support the work of the 24 new members of the Judiciary who have been appointed. A sum of €2 million in extra support has been provided to meet additional operational costs across the Courts Service.

A gross Estimate of €28.4 million has been made available to the Data Protection Commission. This includes an increase of €1.5 million by comparison with the previous year. To put this into perspective, the allocation in the very first year was €3.65 million, so there has been a significant increase in a few short years. As colleagues are aware, major technology companies are headquartered in Ireland, so the Data Protection Commission has significant lead supervisory authority responsibilities right across the European Union, due largely to the one-stop shop mechanism. Therefore, it is extremely important that we fund the Data Protection Commission.

A gross Estimate of €4.4 million has been provided for the Policing Authority Vote to continue oversight of the performance of An Garda Síochána at an organisational level. The additional funding allocated is related to the establishment of the new authority, the Policing and Community Safety Authority, which will replace the Policing Authority and Garda Síochána Inspectorate on the commencement of the Bill, which I hope will be passed in the Dáil tomorrow.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Revised Estimates with the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister for her opening remarks. We will now commence our consideration of Vote 20 and then move through the rest of the Votes one by one. Since no member desires to contribute on Vote 20, I will do so myself.

The increased budget for overtime within An Garda Síochána is an important component of the flexibility enshrined within the organisation and its ability to respond, as we saw, unfortunately, last year. Does the Minister believe the budget she has allocated this year, which represents an increase by comparison with that allocated in previous years, is sufficient to cater for eventualities such as those we saw in Dublin in 2023 and additional day-to-day policing activities resulting therefrom?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The additional €28 million for overtime is welcome. That will not just be allocated in our capital city, where there has been a particular focus; it is to have a benefit right across the country. It must be taken in the context of a number of other changes. First and foremost, the way we can respond to issues as they arise is by ensuring we have as many gardaí to respond as possible. Overtime is a short-term measure in times of need but a particular focus on increasing the number of gardaí has to be the priority. As the Chair will know, last year we had an intake that was higher than in several years. There were over 750 new members across five different intakes. We have a recruitment campaign that will be ongoing until 8 February. There is already good interest in it. I hope to have biannual recruitment campaigns to ensure a sustained level of recruitment to the Garda College. However, overtime is important for many reasons, including for significant events, not only the riots before Christmas but also the likes of the visit of the US President. In such cases, it is necessary to have the overtime resource available. The allocation of €28 million for overtime will be very welcome. It is a matter for the Commissioner to decide where the money is spent, but I have no doubt that it will be used right across the country and that small villages, as well as larger towns and cities, will benefit from it.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Members of all parties and none welcome the increase in the allocation specifically for Garda recruitment. Related to this is the question of diversity within An Garda. There have been efforts to ensure gender diversity in An Garda through recruitment but there is also the question of other forms of diversity, including those related to ethnicity and race. I wonder whether the Minister has any remarks to make on this. Is there a specific budget within the Vote to provide additional support for the recruitment process? If so, perhaps the Minister could identify it.

With regard to the investment in Garda transport options and vehicles, the Minister mentioned the acquisition of a new helicopter and a new fixed-wing aircraft. I must admit I do not remember asking a question on this last year when it was agreed. Are the aircraft in addition to the existing fleet of two Garda helicopters, or are they replacements? I presume, based on the Minister's remarks, that the new aircraft are different from the two in use.

In recent weeks, the Minister, with the Commissioner, significantly increased the age limit for joining the Garda. Has this made any material difference? Has the Minister been able to measure it yet?

Deputy Helen McEntee

On the last question, I do not have any sense of the difference yet. I have an idea of the overall number who have applied to date. I will not state that until after the closing date. I am very interested in seeing the final figures. I never expected that we would have thousands, perhaps over the age of 35, applying at the same time. I certainly believe there will be interest. It was an important move to acknowledge that people are fit and healthy at 35.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

And older.

Deputy Helen McEntee

And older, perhaps. We need to make it worth everybody's while, at the same time.

On transport, the allocation will be in addition to what we have. The aircraft will be of higher capability, particularly in dealing with our international partners and having the ability to focus on particular types of criminal activity that we cannot focus on given the types of aircraft we have. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, €23 million was spent last year. There is funding to be spent this year in this area, and that is being worked through. It has been sought by the Garda, particularly for dealing with issues like organised crime and drug smuggling. Having the technology and equipment in question will be very beneficial and show our international and European partners we are serious in this regard.

On the diversity strategy, while there is no specific increase in the budget, there is a budget within the Garda Vote more generally for campaigning and diversity. The Chair is correct that it is not focused on gender balance alone. In the most recent campaigns, fewer women have applied than in others. I am not sure why. Perhaps there has been a greater focus on assaults of gardaí. There might be reasons but it is really important that we continue in the positive way that has seen significant numbers of women join. By comparison with other European countries and countries farther afield, we did extremely well in years gone by. There is a specific diversity strategy within An Garda focusing on newer communities, whereby gardaí are engaging with communities from which members of An Garda would not traditionally have been recruited, be those new Irish communities or others. That has resulted in a slight increase but we need to do more. There is also a trainee programme and engagement with schools with a specific focus on diversity. I met a group of students last year for their graduation and it was really positive that many of them wanted to join An Garda or were considering some form of work involving the organisation. To be able to expand that would be really positive. This is being considered and I hope there will be potential. When people have a chance to see how a profession operates, they are more likely to enter it. There is work being done in this area but I would like to see diversity expand much quicker.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister for that response. The committee will probably be interested in returning to the matter at some point.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the Minister for her interest. I have a question on the Garda ICT and what is being rolled out. As I understand it the local gardaí have an app on their phones whereby they can download stuff. However, there is an issue in regard to the ability to access, for example, road traffic information, such as whether car is taxed or a person has a valid licence. Will this facilitate the roll out of that to all members of the Garda? Surely it would be vitally important to gardaí in local communities to know what cars are taxed and insured, what drivers are banned and so forth. Will it facilitate increasing the availability of this to local gardaí on the beat?

Deputy Helen McEntee

At this stage, all members have access to the Garda apps and the mobility devices. As the Deputy said, they are working really well. Gardaí do not have to go back to stations but are able to access information from the car or from wherever they are working. They are able to identify information about individuals if they are stopped or otherwise.

There has been a body of work under way for some time looking at how we can make sure gardaí have the most up-to-date real-time information available to them, and ensuring they have access to information on whether somebody has insurance is one of the areas of work that has been happening. There has been an agreement with An Garda Síochána and its representative organisation that real-time information will be given to gardaí so that if they stop someone, they will be able to see whether they have insurance. That is not in place just yet but it is almost complete. It is part of the overall body of work being done in my Department, An Garda Síochána, the Department of Transport and the RSA. It is about doing as much as we possibly can to make sure people who are on the roads and should not be, or who are a danger, are taken off the road, and that gardaí have the information to be able to do that. That work is at an advanced stage. I hope it will be helpful. A good deal of information is provided to gardaí through the policing app. The most important thing is that all gardaí have access to that at the moment.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Do all gardaí have access to it, whether they are in the traffic corps-----

Deputy Helen McEntee

Yes, everybody has access to the mobility app.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank Deputy Pringle. I promise the members I will not do this on any of the other Votes but I have just two follow-up questions. Is there a correlation between the number of Garda staff recruited and the potential for a lessening, if you will, of the workload of individual members of An Garda Síochána? Would that perhaps be a better question for the Commissioner?

In regard to the capital building, I appreciate the Office of Public Works, OPW, is responsible for some of the buildings An Garda Síochána has throughout the country, so are there two separate budgets in terms of capital investment in those buildings? Is there a maintenance budget, or whatever it is called? Is that between An Garda Síochána and the OPW or is it just the OPW? Will the Minister provide clarity on that?

Deputy Helen McEntee

In regard to Garda staff, the objective of making sure we have an increase in our overall numbers is to ensure as far as possible that front-line gardaí are not behind the desk doing paperwork or work that Garda staff could do. There will always be a level of work that gardaí need to do, inputting data and information, but certainly the objective is that the more Garda staff we have, the more front-line gardaí can be reassigned to operational roles. Under the Garda reassignment initiatives since 2015, almost 900 Garda members have been reassigned to the operational roles and their previous roles assigned to Garda staff, inclusive of 17 in 2023. It is absolutely the case. It will not take away all administration work or particular work that gardaí need to do in the station but it certainly does free up members. The objective this year is that we would hire 250 additional staff. That in itself will certainly free up a number of gardaí for front-line duty.

In regard to the capital building, there are two separate budgets. The OPW has a budget of €60 million and An Garda Síochána has a €5 million maintenance budget to deal with smaller maintenance or upkeep of buildings. As I said, there are 700 buildings under the Garda heading, so there is a lot to maintain. Many of them would be older buildings, so the €5 million is specific to that. However, the delivery of new buildings is very much the area of the OPW, working closely with An Garda Síochána and my Department.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister for that, and the members for their forbearance. That concludes our discussion on Vote 20. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will move on to Vote 21 - Prisons.

Deputy Patrick Costello

There is an issue with probation and prison I want to raise but I will wait until that comes up under Vote 24. One of the issues with prisons is that access to education in prison is often dependent on the availability of a prison officer to bring a prisoner to the education and the training. There have been plenty of times when prisoners have not had access to education and training because there are not enough prison officers. Is the Minister satisfied there is sufficient budget here to recruit? Are there challenges with recruiting prison officers in the same way we have issues with recruiting gardaí?

A lack of addiction counsellors in prisons has also been highlighted. Is the Minister happy there is sufficient money in these Estimates to allow for addiction counsellors? Given that addiction feeds criminality, addressing addiction while somebody is in a place where they are able to address it, is going to be the biggest issue for them to prevent recidivism and for the community to prevent recidivism and promote safety.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I thank the Deputy. He is right that one of the biggest challenges is making sure that we have enough prison staff to manage the overall prison population, which is increasing, but also to make sure prisoners are able to access their education and health needs. They are impacted where there are not enough people essentially to transport them to that class or whatever it is they are going to. This year's budget will allow for 35,000 additional hours to meet many of those challenges. That is up to 60 officers. I would like more but we have to build on the work that has been done to date, in the past three year. I do not have the exact figure for the past three years but we have seen a larger increase in the number of staff than we have had in many years. I want to keep that momentum going.

In regard to the educational services, for 2024 the educational budget is €1.709 million, which is an increase of €150,000 on the previous year. In terms of the addiction issues among the prison population, on 29 November last, the end of the year, the Irish Prison Service, IPS, officially launched the Irish Prison Service drug strategy 2023 to 2026. This means the strategy itself will be rolled out with the support of the current and the additional officers as well. In regard to options available to prisoners, they can, as part of the assessment process, discuss treatment options with healthcare staff. This may include stabilisation on methadone maintenance for those who wish to continue while in prison and where they will return to the community on release. While drug treatment services are provided in all closed prisons, the same type of programmes are not offered in the open prisons because a condition of transfer to an open prison is that they are drug free. Therefore, they are not availing of those particular types of services. However, counselling sessions are provided by Merchants Quay Ireland. These are available in the open prisons, as is Narcotics Anonymous, which is a prisoner leading community link. Various services are available in the same way that educational services are there.

I appreciate that sometimes they are impacted by the level of staffing. However, the staffing this year, while slightly lower than what we would have had last year, certainly builds and continues that momentum. I would like to see that increase further. As well as that, in 2023 two prison doctors and 17 prison nurses were recruited. That is why I referred to the significant increase last year, which we obviously want to continue to build on.

Deputy Mark Ward

To follow up on the point made by Deputy Costello in regard to mental health, I am the spokesperson for my party on mental health but I also worked in addiction services throughout Dublin. Much of the time people have dual diagnoses and are not getting the adequate care they need prior to going to prison. I appreciate that is not the Minister's responsibility. However, when people end up in prison, there is a responsibility to meet their healthcare needs.

The answer I received to my most recent parliamentary question on this indicated 1,804 people were waiting to access psychology services. Some of them are waiting more than two years for an appointment with those services. There are also 894 people waiting to access addiction services while in prison. Sometimes, it is hard for people in the general population to engage with services when they are living chaotic lifestyles, but there is a chance when somebody is in prison where there is - excuse the pun - a captive audience. More needs to be done to make these services more available, whether they are mental health or psychology. As I said, they often overlap with dual diagnosis.

There is mention, and it may be connected, of a 7.86% reduction in the allocation for prisoner care and rehabilitation. Will that have any impact on people accessing psychology and addiction services? Can anything else be done so that people get the care they need, when and where they need it, when they are in the prison population?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The reduction in prisoner care and rehabilitation is primarily related to inflation and costs that were specific to Covid last year. There is no decrease in service. It is just that last year there was inflation in the overall costs, which we do not expect to happen this year.

On mental health more broadly, a body of work was done by the former Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, Kathleen Lynch, which looked at mental health and addiction challenges in the Prison Service and those who come into contact with the criminal justice sector. There are quite a number of recommendations from that group. One of the recommendations that came from the work of the subgroup was to look at diversion and the development of a community access support team, CAST. That is being developed. It is about enhancing the diversionary practices for those who experience the type of crisis and trauma that leads to mental health difficulties so they are supported in a better way than they are now. A pilot is being developed and trialled in Limerick with the Limerick Garda division. That pilot includes An Garda Síochána, mental health services in Limerick, Mid West Community Healthcare and the Prison Service. The pilot project is not a mental health de-escalation unit but it looks to establish an appropriate co-response approach to calls relating to mental health and trauma. It is a pilot but it is one of the key recommendations from the mental health task force.

There has also been a lot of very positive engagement with Bernard Gloster, the head of the HSE, specifically looking at how we can improve the level of supports and services for prisoners with mental health problems. We have the new Central Mental Hospital, CMH, which has enhanced our capacity and ability. There were some initial challenges but there has been very positive engagement with the HSE in making sure that as many people as possible in prison can access those services. So many people in prison should not be there. They should be in mental health services and are in need of quite intense care. In saying that, I compliment the staff and team who work in our prisons on dealing with a very difficult dynamic and situation.

The main source of funding for specialist psychiatric services is provided by the HSE. Everyone who comes into prison is subject to a comprehensive medical assessment by the prisoner healthcare team. This includes a mental health assessment and further care that might be deemed appropriate, whatever that might be, by the team. This information from the initial nursing and medical assessment is used to develop an individual healthcare plan for the person while in custody. Where necessary, people are referred to a forensic clinician or a Prison Service psychologist or both. An in-reach psychiatric service is provided by the HSE as well. This is available in all Dublin prisons, and in Portlaoise, Midlands and Castlerea prisons, through collaboration with the National Forensic Mental Health Service. Consultant psychiatrist-led services are provided to those in custody in Limerick and Cork prisons. This is by way of an agreement with the HSE.

A lot of positive work is happening but I agree there is more we can do. That is certainly the focus of the mental health task force. Again, the engagement with the HSE has been very positive in that regard.

Deputy Mark Ward

A reduction in those waiting times and waiting lists would make a real impact on people. When they leave prison, they will be less likely to reoffend if they get the help they need in the place where they are imprisoned.

Something else came up that is connected to this. I was at a presentation late last year by the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, on what happens when people leave prison. They were not getting the appropriate referrals, whether that was into addiction or mental health services, housing, or even having social welfare payments ready for them when they left prison. Often, they were leaving without getting any of those services. This came up quite regularly at the presentation and many contributions from the floor indicated that was the case. Is there more that can be done for people when they leave prison so they do so in the best place possible to stop them from being in a position to reoffend?

I will tease out an issue that may also be connected. There has been an increase, and any increase is always welcome, in Dormant Accounts-funded social disadvantage measures. That is up by 88.05%, which is a huge increase. Can anything else be done to help people who are going back to socially disadvantaged areas with the same problems - sometimes worse - they had when they went into prison? They are going back to the same areas where they committed the crimes to begin with. Can anything be done there?

Deputy Helen McEntee

One of the ways in which we can support people is by supporting some of the organisations that are specifically there to work with people. I met with some of them in the Dóchas Centre only last week. Through separate funding in my Department, I have tried to invest in many of those organisations so that they can expand where possible and also offer as much of a service to as many people as possible. Obviously, work needs to be continued where the Prison Service works with community organisations, and local authorities, the social welfare office and others, to make sure that it is not an immediate "No" for people, when they are seeking housing, work or employment. My Department funds various organisations whose sole focus is working with people to access the workplace, and to identify industries and sectors that will work with people who have come out of prison, and their families, to provide that wraparound support for them. There are some very good programmes. I cannot think of the names of them off the top of my head, but there are a number of very positive programmes where the sole focus is to support the rehabilitation of people when they are back in the community, together with their families. These programmes are also about reaching out into the wider community to normalise a situation where someone has turned his or her life around, has served his or her time and wants to integrate back into the community. My Department is doing that and there has been increased funding for those programmes over the years.

Deputy Mark Ward

One of the groups that looks after those people, which is funded through the Department of Health, is community prison link workers, who are very good. I have worked with a number of them over the years. They put things in place, including some very basic things. For example, they ensure that when people leave prison, they have a payment when they get out, and are ready to access payments and so on, or they have somewhere to go or a family member they can link in with. Those kind of small links make a big difference when somebody leaves prison. I heard stories at the IPRT presentation of people leaving prison with a bag and not even a bus fare in their pocket, with nowhere to go and not knowing where they were going. The likelihood of them reoffending is a lot lower if they had things in place. That is worth looking into.

Deputy Helen McEntee

Certainly, one of the recommendations of the Drogheda implementation plan was a prison link worker. I met with that group last year. It has just one prison link worker in place but it is working very well and has already had a positive impact. A very small number of people can have a very positive impact.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I see a small increase of 7.45% in the allocation for buildings and equipment. One of the matters I have become quite aware of in the past year or two is that a number of prisoners in various facilities throughout the country are doubling up, which is not ideal. Is there a plan in that regard, notwithstanding the new wings that have been added to at least two prisons, Limerick and Cork, in recent years? Will the Minister outline any further investment in infrastructure to try to accommodate prisoners as humanely and appropriately as possible?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The Acting Chairman is right in what he said. We have the highest number there has been for a significant period. There are 4,717 people in prison compared to an approximate capacity of 4,514. This has led to us having to put bunk beds into certain cells. A small number of people are sleeping on mattresses and other areas have been refurbished that might not have been in use previously. We have brought more than 200 new spaces into operation through the refurbishment and development of the new women's prison in Limerick, among other areas that have been refurbished, but there is a need for new developments. We are advancing plans for four short-term capital projects.

They will be in Castlerea Prison, Cloverhill Prison, Midlands Prison and Mountjoy Prison. That should deliver a maximum of 620 additional spaces, with the potential for some of them to be delivered this year. That work is ongoing, acknowledging that our population has grown, our prison population has increased in tandem with that and we need to respond accordingly. This is a fast-build programme and a short-term capital plan and I hope I will be in a position to move on that this year. It will be 2025 and 2026 before we start to see the larger numbers but that is in train. Additional money was allocated in the budget to appoint specific team members whose sole focus is this development in order that it will get the attention and focus it needs.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister. I have no doubt that is a subject we will revisit. We will move on to Vote 22 - the Courts Service.

Deputy Patrick Costello

While I welcome the increase in respect of 24 judges the Minister mentioned, is it intended to recruit yet more judges? There are still huge delays in how long it takes a trial to get on. A criminal trial being delayed causes problems for the victim, for the accused, especially for an accused who may later be found not guilty, and for the administration of justice generally. The additional judges are welcome but we are still fairly low internationally in respect of the numbers of judges per head of population and the numbers of judges needed for an effective justice system. Can we have some more, please?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The short answer is "Yes". We have allocated 24 additional new judges among the courts, and there will now be a period for the judicial planning working group to look at how the 24 additional judges and, most important, the structures and the support around them will have an impact on the overall lists. There are a number of changes to the modernisation programme and to ways in which our courts are going to operate, so it is important for that to bed down to allow us to show the benefit of the 24 additional judges. That is on top of the additional High Court judges who were allocated in the previous two years. There has been a significant increase, which has absolutely been needed, but in respect of the second half of the recommendations of the judicial planning working group, it will most likely be 2025 before there are any further new judges. The funding for 35 additional staff this year will allow that increase to bed down and I hope we start to see the benefit of that very soon. In the case of the ten additional District Court judges in particular, that court is where a lot of the backlog is for many people and those judges will, I hope, take a great deal of pressure off those who are already working.

This is just the start. It is the first phase of two and we need to allow time for these changes to bed down and for new practices to become incorporated in the overall structure. We will then go back to see how many more we can appoint as quickly as possible.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister. We will now move on to Vote 24 - Justice.

Deputy Patrick Costello

As I said earlier in respect of the Probation Service, the number of probation officers in prisons over quite a few years either has been declining or has been static while prison populations increase. The number of prisoners per probation officer is increasing, so one probation officer now has a much greater remit. Their challenge is that a lot of the work that would previously have been done, such as pre-release preparation, the rehabilitative work in prison and that kind of work, is not getting done as much. I do not know whether this is a prisons issue or a Probation Service issue but there is certainly a need to address it. Is the Minister satisfied there is enough money in the Revised Estimates to address the need for probation officers within the prison environment?

Deputy Helen McEntee

An additional €3.4 million was allocated for the Probation Service this year, so it has seen an increase, to deal with the number of different services it provides. It is looking at further configuring the networks of the community-based officers to deliver restorative justice services, our joint agency response to crime, JARC, and the youth joint agency response, YJARC. That will look specifically at younger people who are referred to existing pathways in the Dublin north inner city and it will start this year. We are reviewing the number of proposals targeted at new programmes, services and initiatives, including the recruitment of outreach workers, the expansion of programmes in the inner city areas, the review of services in Munster in particular and the expansion of services to female officers. On top of that, consideration has been given to providing additional funding to community-based officers to cover their increased cost of living, including utility bills. It is important the teams be supported.

On prisons, I will have to get the Deputy detail on the previous year but by the end of September 2023, there were 29 probation officers in prisons, including two senior probation officers, and five administration staff. There are four vacancies at the moment and there is an intention to fill those vacancies in order that there will not be any gaps. There are two in Mountjoy Prison, one in Wheatfield Prison at Cloverhill and one in Midlands Prison. I acknowledge that when we look at the justice Vote overall, it looks like a decrease for the Probation Service, but the service comprises four subheads, namely, salaries, wages and allowances, operating expenses, services for offenders and the community service order scheme, and as a whole the funding has increased. Most important, the figure for services to offenders, working specifically with people, has not decreased but increased. These are the areas that have been identified as needing expansion or further work. I will get absolute clarity on the issue of probation officers in prisons. There are four vacancies but there has not been a massive decrease, as far as I am aware, in that regard.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Part of the issue, however, is that even if we are standing still as prison numbers increase, there will be greater pressure on the probation officer teams who are there. I was looking at numbers going back six or seven years, but while the figure has not decreased in the past few years, that has to be looked at in the context of an increasing prison population.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I think we also need to look at other ways in which we can improve, such as by making sure the community services side of things is operating in a more efficient and effective way, which it possibly is not at the moment. More work can be and needs to be done there in order that fewer people who did not need to go to prison go to prison. There are a number of strands to this. We now have probation assistants, who are new to the overall system, and 12 commenced their positions in the past two days. Moreover, a total of 30 probation assistants will be in place by the third quarter of 2024, in addition to probation officers. They will work with them and support them, and while they may not have the same level of qualifications as probation officers, there is a different pathway for them to be able to work with the probation teams. This is in addition to probation officers. It is new this year but we hope to have 30 in place by the end of the year. According to my note, from 31 December 2022, the number of probation officers was 230, while from December 2023, it was 241, so it has increased. I will revert to the Deputy specifically on how many of those are in prisons.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Specifically on the position of probation assistant, a lot of probation officers are trained in social work and we are seeing a huge challenge with recruiting social workers in Tusla and those services. Is the increasing use of probation assistants a reflection of the difficulty of hiring qualified social workers in the Probation Service and a reflection of the state of social work in general in this country?

Deputy Helen McEntee

It probably is, in some way, a reflection of the challenges there. There is not a requirement for somebody to have that specific qualification, which is the case for probation officers. Having said that, a certain level of training is required and a particular skill set needed, so I have every confidence these people will be very supportive and helpful to the overall system.

There is absolutely a challenge in hiring social workers in that regard as well.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

It would be inappropriate of the committee not to note the €452.7 million increase in this particular Vote. Within that is a 975%, a 681% and a 788.9% increase in three headings, which are domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, for non-agency and the actual establishment of the agency itself, and the Irish passenger information unit, the IPIU. Obviously the first two are incredibly important and the establishment of that agency should be noted by the committee. I cannot say that I am familiar with the latter part and perhaps the Minister will familiarise me with that.

I wish to go back to the point I was making about doubling up in prisons. The Minister mentioned approximately 500 prisoners who were over and above the capacity of the Prison Service and doubling up on beds with mattresses. The Minister's plan or the plan of the Department is to deliver some 600 additional spaces. Taking into consideration the rising population, which I do not believe is going to stop anytime soon, and taking into consideration the pretty significant increase in budgets being provided to the Probation Service and the community service schemes, I wonder whether the 600 spaces the Minister mentioned for expansion of capacity of existing prisons would be sufficient. This is coupled with the absolute need for this State to recognise that custodial sentences are not always the answer. Further investment in the community service order scheme to the magnitude that is listed in this particular Vote is extremely important. Again, I am merely in the Chair temporarily and the members will understand but I believe it is a matter we should revisit as a committee. Perhaps the Minister will make a comment on that particular point.

Will the Minister outline to the committee the whereabouts or the status of the inspection of places of detention Bill, a matter which I believe is related to this head. I am aware that it has been prioritised by the Government and is due to be published soon. Perhaps the Minister will offer a comment on that as well.

Deputy Helen McEntee

On A27, the passenger information unit, this is an increase of €1.6 million provided to the Irish passenger information unit. The fund is to hire personnel to undertake ICT projects and the primary function here is to collect and process passenger name data, PNR, and passenger recognition data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences or serious crime. Only today I brought a memo to Cabinet approving further changes to our PNR system so we are fully compliant with Europe, but above all so we can engage with three of the Schengen area countries as well in making sure that we can share information and data, particularly for the purpose of investigating crime. Similar to the investment in our aircraft this is investing in our systems so we can co-operate with our international and our European partners to be able to share information and data where there is a concern or risk around criminal activity. That is why we have seen such a sharp increase in that particular subhead.

With regard to the prison spaces, while 620 is the number that may be the minimum number we are possibly looking at a higher figure, possibly beyond 800, overall. There is work to be done just to develop that out further. At a minimum it would be 600 or 620 but it has the potential to go beyond 800. Acknowledging that the number of people above and beyond the capacity we have now almost eats up all of that we need to be future thinking as well.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Given the lead time certainly it would be a concern. The Minister mentioned a couple of years minimum before that investment would see actual turnaround. All the while, as the Minister has rightly pointed out, our population is rising. It stands to reason that the number of individuals receiving custodial sentences will commensurately increase as well.

There was also my question on the inspection places of detention.

Deputy Helen McEntee

That is being progressed at the moment. It is still being worked on. I expect it to come before the Houses at some stage this year. I do not have a definite date for that yet, unfortunately.

Deputy Mark Ward

I have a couple of questions, one of which relates to the community safety innovation fund. It is a welcome initiative. Sinn Féin has for a long time called for money seized by the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, to go back into the most disadvantaged communities. While it is the first year of it, I welcome the proposed increase. A number of organisations from really disadvantaged areas applied for funding through this fund and were disappointed funding was not awarded. There were six organisations in my area of Dublin West that applied for the community safety innovation fund and not one of them was successful. Some of these organisations work in some of the most disadvantaged parts of my community and work with some of the most marginalised people in our community. What more can be done to make sure this fund, which mostly originates in areas that are really disadvantaged, goes back into those areas so they can have the services to stop young people going into crime in the first place?

Deputy Helen McEntee

Everybody supports the idea of funds being taken from criminals and put directly back into the communities they impact. I was really pleased to be able to set up this fund. In the last two years it has gone from €2 million to €3 million to €3.75 million this year and obviously I want to see that increase further.

The overall objective of the fund is to support community safety. That can come in the form of many different ways. It is really important that it is not used to substitute other Departments' sources of funding. That was one of the biggest challenges we faced in the first year or two years of applications where people obviously had a gap in a particular service, they had not been given the funding from another Department - I do not want to single out a Department - and their application was specific to something that is already funded. We have been very clear that this not what the fund is for. We want new and innovative ways to look at and be able to address safety in communities.

It is two years in and we now need to evaluate the types of projects that have been given funding to see how they have worked or where people have maybe fallen down in their application. While they were not outreach events there were specific meetings that were opened up to anybody to join so the officials in my Department could outline the parameters of the applications and what types of funding projects they could apply for. Where people were unsuccessful there was feedback afterwards as to why they were not successful. It will take a little bit of time for it to bed down as a new fund but certainly in the next tranche of funding I will do everything I can to reach out to community organisations that were unsuccessful the last time. In the second round there were groups that got funding that had not been successful the first time. We worked with them to make sure their project fit within the parameters. There is a lot of really fantastic work going on out there with communities but I do not want to replace other sources of funding because it is supposed to be a once-off. It is supposed to set up something that can then progress itself. Obviously if one gets into funding a staff member, a HSE member or otherwise it defeats the purpose of the overall fund. We are happy to engage with organisations or communities that want to use the fund.

Deputy Mark Ward

On the theme of community safety, it is very interesting to see that a new national office of community safety is being established. I would like to tease out what this involves. Is it about restructuring what is already there in the community safety forums, the joint policing committees, JPCs, or the local policing forums? What is this national office of community safety, who is involved and when will it be rolled out?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The national office for community safety will be the main office that will manage and support the community safety partnerships. The community safety partnerships will replace the JPCs and essentially expand out on the work they do. It will not just be members of An Garda Síochána, the local authority and local authority members or Oireachtas Members that are part of this group. It will include 30 members in total, 11 of whom will be mandatory. It will include a designated chair, at least seven elected members, representatives of the HSE, Tusla, An Garda Síochána, the Probation Service and community members.

There will be a broad range of people working to develop a plan for their area, specifically focused on community safety. What the national office will do is assist all of those individual partnerships. They will each have their own member of staff dedicated to their own community partnerships and they will then be connected with the overall office to make sure that people are supported, are staying on track and are doing the work they are supposed to do. The office will undertake a review of the plans, including how they are being developed, how they are working, where they can be improved and if changes are needed. The national office will be the oversight mechanism to make sure that they work effectively.

Deputy Mark Ward

I am on the joint policing committee, JPC, in south Dublin. Will the structures under the JPC, including the community safety forum and the local policing forum, still be in place or will they be different? Will they be feeding into the national office?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The objective is to have one community safety partnership per local authority. In Galway and Cork, for example, there are city and county councils so there would be two partnership in those counties. Obviously in Dublin there are four local authorities but the intention is that there will be many more than four partnerships, given the population numbers and density. A final decision has not been made on the total but we are engaging with the local authorities to identify what they feel, based on population, would be optimal. I am aware there are certain fora operating at the moment. We have some pilot partnerships under way like the Cherry Orchard board and the Drogheda implementation board and there is provision in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, which we hope to pass tomorrow, to allow these fora to continue working separately to, but alongside the partnerships. There could be an overall partnership in an area and it might have a separate forum specific to one area that the partnership feels needs an intense focus and priority. That group can operate separately and that is provided for in the legislation. Where there are no fora already in existence, for example, in a large county like my own in Meath, there will be one partnership but it might be decided that one particular town needs a subgroup or a separate forum that will operate with the partnership but will effectively be separate and will focus solely on that one area and that is provided for and allowed in the legislation as well.

Deputy Mark Ward

To go back to the structures, I have been a member of all of the various fora in my area. The community safety forum usually comprises members of the community and some local public representatives who feed into the local policing forum, which then feeds into the JPC. Are those structures still going to be in place? I am not clear about that. Will the community safety and local policing fora still be in place or will they be impacted by the change in direction?

Deputy Helen McEntee

They can still operate but they will be working with the partnership instead of the JPC. The intention is that there will be no gaps, so there will be a provision for that. With the local elections happening this June, the natural order would be that the JPCs would be stood down and when the legislation is enacted later this year, that all of the community safety partnerships would be stood up. Obviously, we are moving to implement as many of them as quickly as possible but if there are any gaps, the JPCs will just continue until the partnerships are stood up.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister for that. That is a rather large subhead, it must be said. The only other matter that I neglected to mention was the 50% increase in the budget, which is not a small amount by any measure, for the Free Legal Advice Centres, which is very welcome. We will agree Vote 24 and move on to Vote 41, which is the Policing Authority. Deputy Ward, as the only remaining member here, do you have any comments or questions on this?

Deputy Mark Ward

No.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

We will note that and move on to Vote 44, the Data Protection Commission. I have one question in relation to the commissioners themselves, which I am asking on behalf of Deputy Costello, who had to go to another meeting. Is it envisaged that we will have three commissioners in place at any stage in the budgetary year?

Deputy Helen McEntee

My intention is that we will have three. A competition is under way and I hope to be in a position in a matter of weeks to appoint new commissioners. Obviously, Ms Helen Dixon is stepping down and is moving on to a different role so there will be a vacancy there as well. It is my intention that all three commissioner posts will be filled. I want to take this opportunity to thank Helen for the work that she has done in the setting up of the office and the significant expansion of the work of the Data Protection Commission over the last number of years and to wish her well in her new role.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister and echo her appreciation of the work of Ms Dixon and I also wish her well in whatever the next steps might be. We will note Vote 44 as well. That concludes our consideration of the Revised Estimates.

As we are thanking Civil Servants, it would be appropriate to thank Ms Emma Smith, a member of the secretariat who is leaving the Oireachtas tomorrow to pursue other opportunities, for her dedication, professionalism and her contribution to this committee over the last period, which is very much appreciated. We wish her every success in whatever lies next for her. Perhaps she might come back to the Oireachtas at some point.