In the unavoidable absence of the Chairman and vice-Chairman of the Committee, I invite nominations of a Member to chair the meeting.
Estimates for Public Services, 1998.
Votes 36 and 37 - Department of Defence (Revised).
Clerk to the Committee
I propose Deputy Cooper-Flynn.
I second the nomination.
Deputy Cooper-Flynn took the Chair.
I welcome the Minister and his officials. Is the agenda circulated to the committee agreed? Agreed.
I am glad to have the opportunity to appear before the committee for what will be a valuable and worthwhile debate on this year's Estimates for the Department of Defence and Army pensions.
Over the past couple of years the business of the Department of Defence has been dominated by the loss of hearing claims problem. Having regard to the huge financial implications for the taxpayer and the actual and potential damage to the Defence Forces arising from these claims, it remains a major priority issue for me and the Department. Since my appointment last October, I have taken a proactive approach in dealing with this problem. However, there are many other very important, positive developments taking place in the Defence area. Before dealing with the hearing claims issue, I would like to spend some time bringing the committee up to date on these matters.
As I have said many times previously, I have the greatest respect for the Defence Forces and for their excellent record of loyalty and service since the foundation of the State. I wish to express my own appreciation and that of the Government for the dedicated manner in which the members of our Defence Forces carry out their assigned tasks at home and overseas. Since becoming Minister I have been continually impressed by their professionalism, whether in the field of air-sea rescue, fishery protection, providing assistance to the Garda Síochána in various internal security operations or carrying out peace keeping duties in south Lebanon. In that regard, it is worth mentioning that this year the Defence Forces celebrate 40 years of continuous participation in UN peace-keeping operations, of which we are proud.
A programme of reform and re-organisation of the Defence Forces has been under way for the past few years. I consider it is of fundamental importance that the momentum for reform should be maintained and brought to a successful conclusion. It is important to bear in mind that the reform programme was initiated against a background of widespread acceptance, not least by the military authorities themselves, and that reform was essential to enable the Defence Forces to effectively carry out the roles assigned to them by Government. The whole thrust of the reforms was to develop a more efficient and streamlined military organisation with an increased operational capability. A major objective was to tackle the high age profile problem which had been identified as an issue which, unless urgently addressed, would progressively compromise the operational effectiveness of the Defence Forces.
We are now in the final year of the three year Defence Forces review implementation plan and it is appropriate that we take stock of what has been achieved to date and give an outline of the way ahead. The voluntary early retirement scheme which commenced in 1996 has been successful in terms of addressing the age profile problem, reducing the unacceptably high number of medical grade C personnel and creating scope for the recruitment of young, physically fit personnel. In 1996 and 1997 a total of 1,235 personnel were granted voluntary early retirement of whom 900 were in medical grade C and about 220 were over 45 years of age. It is expected that around 225 personnel will avail of VER later this year. The overall expenditure on VER over the three years 1996 to 1998 will amount to close on £70 million which, I am sure Members will agree, is a considerable sum of money.
A regular intake of fresh blood is an essential aspect of maintaining an operationally effective Defence Forces organisation. Young, keen, energetic, fit personnel with new ideas bring the best from any organisation. In the period 1996 to 1997 more than 900 personnel were recruited and they have already made their mark. Of the new recruits, 300 are serving for the first time in Lebanon. Arrangements are at present in train to enlist a further 500 general recruits and to award 58 cadetships. A policy of continuous recruitment is now in place. The stop-go policy of recruitment is a thing of the past. I will ensure the policy of continuous recruitment prevails.
As an integral part of the reform process, the Government is committed to improving the equipment and infrastructural facilities available to the Defence Forces. Some of the more important developments in relation to the improvement of Defence Forces equipment are as follows. A new fishery protection patrol vessel is due for delivery in 1999. The new ship will be a tremendous asset to the Naval Service. The vessel is being constructed at Appledore Shipbuilding Limited, Devon, England. The total cost of the contract is £21.25 million and £9.5 million will be expended this year. The supply of 16 new turrets and 16 fire directing systems for fitting to existing Panhard armoured cars which will considerably extend the life of the vehicles. These items are manufactured in South Africa and will be fitted and commissioned in Ireland. The total cost of the contract is £3.93 million.
The purchase of two batteries of refurbished 105 mm. light artillery guns to replace ª25 pounder¾ guns which are now obsolete. Six guns - one battery - were delivered in May 1998 and the other battery is due to be delivered at the end of June 1998. These guns are being acquired from British Aerospace Royal Ordnance, England, at a total cost of £2.79 million. Delivery of the final instalment of equipment to complete a major programme to provide new tactical VHF radios for the Defence Forces. These radios are being acquired from ITT Aerospace, USA, and the complete programme will cost approximately £10.5 million. A major overhaul of LE Eithne will be undertaken at the naval dockyard commencing in July and finishing in December 1998. The overhaul will include the replacement and refurbishment of equipment and will extend the operational life of the vessel. The cost is estimated at £2.1 million.
The programme of procuring armoured personnel carriers is now well under way. This will be one of the biggest ever Defence contracts. A project team was established in 1997 comprising civilian and military personnel and was tasked with identifying the most suitable type of APC for the Defence Forces, the numbers and variants required and the estimated costs involved. The procurement process will be undertaken in two stages by way of a competition which will be conducted in accordance with Government contracts procedures.
In stage one a general request for proposals was issued to interested companies on 24 April 1998. This will establish product availability in the marketplace as well as an indication of the costs involved. The return date for the receipt of proposals was 27 May 1998 and these are now under detailed examination in my Department. In stage two, request for tenders based on a more precisely defined specification will issue to a restricted list of companies - those deemed successful in the first stage. The project team, which I have already referred to, will manage the procurement process through all stages to ensure value for money is obtained for the expenditure involved.
There has been a substantial expenditure in recent years in providing new and upgraded living and operational accommodation for the Defence Forces. This programme is ongoing and expenditure on capital projects this year will be close to £11 million.
The Defence Forces review implementation plan provided for special studies to be carried out on the Air Corps and the Naval Service. In July 1996 the efficiency audit group engaged Price Waterhouse Management Consultants to conduct this review. The consultants subsequently furnished a preliminary draft report to the efficience audit group. This draft report highlighted issues which required to be studied in greater detail and identified a number of new issues which required examination. It was decided that the consultants should examine these problems further in order to produce a report that was as comprehensive as possible and which could serve as a blueprint for the development of these important services in the years ahead.
The consultants completed their review earlier this year and submitted their final report to the efficience audit group in February 1998. The report has been considered by the steering group overseeing the review and it will be submitted to Government in the very near future. The report will be published immediately after it has been considered by Government.
A study of the Reserve Defence Forces was provided for in the implementation plan. It is fully recognised that it is not possible to reorganise the Defence Forces without including the reserves. This study is now under way and I recently appointed a joint military and civilian steering group to oversee and direct the study. This will be a comprehensive review of the reserves. The review will examine such aspects as the need to integrate some elements of the reserves into the reorganised permanent Defence Force, command and control structures, manpower levels and training issues. My objective is to achieve a more effective and efficient Reserve Defence Force. I am particularly anxious to ensure the proud record of voluntary service of the FCA and An Slua Muirí will be continued and enhanced as we approach the new millennium.
The Government is committed to a policy of equal opportunity for women in the Defence Forces and to the full participation of women in all aspects of Defence Forces activity, including operational and ceremonial duties. Women are now eligible for service in the Army, Air Corps, Naval Service and Reserve Defence Force. The first female members of An Slua Muirí were enlisted this year. The first female pilot in the Air Corps, Anne Brogan, will receive her wings tomorrow at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel. Women are eligible to compete for all appointments on an equal basis and under the same conditions as those which apply to men. They undergo the same training and receive the same military education as their male counterparts.
I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the members of the Civil Defence nationwide who do such valuable work on a voluntary basis and on behalf of their local communities. The introduction last year of long service medals for Defence Forces personnel is an indication of the appreciation which the Government has for the selfless, loyal and dedicated service given so freely over many years.
I would like to refer briefly to the proposed White Paper on Defence which was one of the commitments in the Government's Action Programme for the Millennium. This will be the first White Paper on Defence. It is intended that the opportunity will be taken to use this as a vehicle for ongoing reorganisaton, reform and development of Defence. The White Paper will provide a strategic framework for the reorganisation process in the Defence Forces over the next ten years. Preliminary planning work on the White Paper has begun. This work is directed at identifying all of the issues to be comprehended by the White Paper and developing approaches for dealing with these. The White Paper will set out the medium-term policy framework and approaches for the direction and management of defence, including Civil Defence. It will include appropriate inputs from other Departments such as Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Consultation will take place with the Defence Forces representative associations and special arrangements will be made in this regard. I hope to be in a position by early next year to bring forward a draft White Paper for consideration by the Government.
One of the areas in which I have taken a particular interest is the issue of housing for military personnel. It is accepted that, save in exceptional circumstances, married quarters are an anachronism nowadays. Members of the Defence Forces should be treated on an equal footing with other members of society and encouraged to acquire their own houses, whether from a local authority, if they meet the qualifying conditions, or by private purchase. In line with that approach a policy of selling married quarters located outside of barracks to the occupants was introduced some years ago. Purchasers qualified for the same discounts as those available to local authority tenants. To date almost 200 quarters have been sold to members or former members of the Defence Forces and arrangements for further sales are in hand.
There is an estate of 100 houses at Orchard Park on the outskirts of the Curragh Camp which to date had been excluded from the purchase scheme because of its proximity to the Curragh Camp. However, I have reviewed the position in consultation with the military authorities and I am pleased to say it has now been decided to give the occupants of Orchard Park the opportunity to purchase these houses on the same basis that applies to local authority tenants.
With regard to the loss of hearing claims, I welcome the judgment of the High Court delivered by Mr. Justice Lavan on 3 June 1998. This was the case in which the Green Book report, prepared by a group of experts assembled by the Department of Health and Children, was effectively tested in the courts. I am pleased the expert evidence adduced by the State in this case has been accepted by the court and that the Green Book has been held to be a fair and reasonable attempt to introduce a scientific basis for assessing disability arising from hearing loss.
In this case the plaintiff, who had a 2 per cent hearing disability, was awarded £3,000 by the High Court. This level of award is a considerable reduction on the previous level of quantum obtaining in the courts, although it must be borne in mind that 2 per cent on the Green Book system relates to a minor disability. However, this new tariff forms a basis upon which a non-court compensation scheme or board could be based.
However, there remain a number of causes for concern. From an examination of the cases which have been processed through the courts, in respect of which data is available, and applying this level of compensation, the outstanding bill would still be over £200 million in respect of the 11,000 cases awaiting disposal. It must be remembered that new cases continue to come in, albeit at a somewhat reduced level than the 100 per week at the beginning of the year.
I am particularly pleased to note the way in which Mr. Justice Lavan assessed the difficult issue of tinnitus. This is a subjective complaint and there is no objective way to prove or disprove its existence. The High Court judgment stated that for tinnitus to be regarded as an injury which merits compensation, it is necessary for the plaintiff to establish a track record of complaints about tinnitus to a medical practitioner before the plaintiff instituted legal proceedings. This will be recognised by all fair-minded people as a most reasonable approach.
The expenditure of at least £200 million is a matter of very serious concern. For this reason I intend to discuss this matter with the Minister for Finance and to bring proposals to the Government in due course for its approval with regard to the establishment of a compensation mechanism outside the courts. In the meantime, I am prepared to settle cases which are coming in immediately for hearing in the courts provided plaintiffs are prepared to accept the Green Book assessment system endorsed by the High Court and levels of quantum consistent with this judgment. I am conscious of the considerable burden which has been placed on the courts by these cases and I will endeavour to ensure that, where possible, cases will be settled and that a non-court compensation mechanism will remove these cases from the court system.
As I have announced publicly, I cannot accept that the door can remain open to receive these claims indefinitely. This issue has been in the public domain for more than three years. Therefore, individuals are, or should be, aware that if they have military service and have suffered a hearing loss there may be a connection between the two. I intend to test the issue of a defence based on the Statute of Limitations in the courts in the near future.
The £85 million provided for compensation under subhead T of the Defence Estimate includes a figure of £79 million for loss of hearing claims. The £79 million was arrived at by reference to the level of quantum pertaining at the time of preparation of the Estimates and the number of cases expected to be listed for hearing in the courts in 1998. However, arising from the granting by the High Court in early February of an adjournment of Army hearing loss claims, expenditure to date in 1998 is substantially less than had been anticipated. From the beginning of the year up to the end of May a total of £9 million had been spent on loss of hearing compensation and plaintiffs' legal costs.
The expenditure for the remainder of the year is difficult to predict with a degree of accuracy. It will be influenced by a number of factors such as the rate at which claims are settled without a court hearing and, as I have mentioned, the possible introduction of a compensation mechanism outside the courts.
Details of the Defence and Army Pension Estimates have been circulated to members of the committee. I will not comment on individual subheads at this point but I will be pleased to answer any queries and assist the committee in any way I can in its consideration of these Estimates.
It would be worthwhile in future to have a briefing meeting on the Estimates before the committee meets to discuss them. That would be good practice and the committee might consider it for the future.
The context in which we discuss these Estimates contains a number of uncertainties for the Defence Forces, the main one being the cost of the hearing impairment claims and the impact of that cost on the resources that will be available to the Defence Forces in the coming years. That is the key issue which the Minister must address.
Yesterday's newspapers indicated that a zero compensation award to a soldier could save taxpayers £50 million. Is that £50 million less on the total £250 million estimate? How does it relate to the £85 million figure included in the Estimates? I appreciate there are uncertainties on the total cost of the claims. Extraordinary amounts were mentioned but we seem to be moving into more realistic territory. This is largely due to the acceptance by the courts of the Green Book.
Another uncertainty relates to the future application of the Green Book in the courts. Will it continue to be accepted or will a combination of it and the Blue Book be used? Will the cases be appealed to the Supreme Court? There is uncertainty about the consistency of court decisions in the future. I know the Minister cannot comment in detail on that matter but perhaps he can make some estimates based on this week's court cases.
The newspaper headline yesterday indicated that £50 million could be saved and if it is accurate that is to the taxpayers' benefit. It is fair to the claimant in that if there is no disability there should be no payment. However, if it is inaccurate it is another in a series of dramatic headlines which have the effect of undermining confidence in the Defence Forces. They are upsetting to members of the Defence Forces.
A key feature of this episode over recent months is that it has tested the loyalty and service of the Defence Forces. There has been a large amount of negative publicity and members of the Defence Forces are very aware of the bad publicity. A soldier cannot go for a pint in a pub without being subject to smart remarks and undermining comments. The episode is bad for the morale of the Defence Forces. That said, a window of opportunity was taken by some people in an inappropriate way which, had it not been dealt with, would have cost the State a huge amount.
In discussing the Estimates, it is appropriate to ask what can be learned from the experience to date. I regret it was not possible to arrive at a more manageable arrangement without the morale of the Defence Forces being undermined. It raises the question whether we could have arrived at the same point without the incredible amount of damage which has been done. It is obvious now that a key factor in this was a lack of standards. Why were standards not in place and why was it not predicted that this scenario would lead to what we have seen. It raises questions about liaison between the Department of Defence and the Department of Health and Children. It also raises the question of a State claims agency and how the State deals with compensation claims.
In cases taken against the State there has been undermining of claimants and difficulty in handling the cases in the most appropriate way. There are lessons to be learned which have implications for the way in which cases taken against the State are handled, for liaison between Departments and for a more predictive role for the public service when these scenarios take place. This is not unique to this situation, it crosses all parties and needs to be examined in terms of its implications for a different approach to these cases.
Uncertainty surrounds the legislation promised to restructure the Defence Forces. This was due on 1 January 1998 but has not yet been put in place. In the Defence Forces where reorganisation is going on at present, there must be statutory legislation in place to ensure that reorganisation can go ahead. Members of the Defence Forces have said they feel undermined by the fact that this legislation has not been brought forward. The chain of command is undermined because people are doing jobs for which there is no statutory back-up.
There is also continued uncertainty about barrack closures. The Minister mentioned barrack closures on a number of occasions recently. In a press release he said the Defence Forces budget would be affected by the Army deafness claims if his proposals were not accepted. I would like the Minister to clarify these issues during the course of this debate.
We must move away from an approach that undermines anyone who sets out the facts. The suggestion that there be a compensation board is welcome. It is the route to go, it will offer fairness to individual claimants and to the taxpayer.
There is uncertainty about the future of the Navy and the Air Corps. Publication of the Price Waterhouse report has been delayed. The Minister said in the Dáil that the report will be published in June of this year. I hope this is the case because it is very difficult to plan the future of the Air Corps and the Navy and talk meaningfully about Estimates without seeing the Price Waterhouse report.
I intend to see that the Deputy has plenty to read during the Dáil recess.
I can handle that. I will be delighted to see the Price Waterhouse report, as will the staff of the Navy and Air Corps. This report has been much delayed and there has been a lot of uncertainty, worry and rumour about the future shape of these services. The uncertainties are felt particularly in the Air Corps where there is serious shortages. Search and rescue services are being interfered with as a result.
We are discussing the Estimates in the context of much uncertainty and the ensuing impact on the morale of the forces. It is a time of great change for the Defence Forces internationally. We have a great deal in this country of which to be very proud. I join with the Minister in his praise of the Defence Forces over the years and the 40 years of continuous participation in UN peace-keeping operations. It is very important that we have the equipment and resources to support the Defence Forces in participating in peace-keeping and peace-enforcement missions in the years ahead. They will be involved in many more peace-enforcing missions in Europe given the regional conflicts that are emerging.
It is important that the training, resources and equipment of the Defence Forces remains at a high level so that we can use the experience of the past 40 years and make sure we are not left behind. There are concerns that we will be left behind in peace-keeping operations. There will be a big involvement by the Defence Forces in this area in the future and this will give Ireland a great opportunity to contribute positively to world peace. These are challenging times for the Defence Forces.
I welcome the Minister to the committee. When I came to the Houses of the Oireachtas in 1992 I sought the sale of houses in Orchard Park. During the election campaign representations were made to me that the people living in this estate were unable to purchase their houses. Since then I have contacted every Minister for Defence but no decision was made in the matter. However, I am delighted to say that the Minister has made a decision to sell the houses to these people. Many people who retired from the Army at the age of 55 or 60 years could not afford to purchase a house other than the house in which they resided. Many of these people could not get loans from the lending agencies. This meant that the Department saw fit to hold their pensions even though these people were no longer members of the Defence Forces. This created major problems for some families. I am delighted the Minister has taken this decision. This is much appreciated by the 100 families living in the estate and I am sure it will result in big improvements in the area. This is music to the ears of all the families involved.
I come from a county where the Defence Forces play a major role. There are three barracks in my constituency, all within close proximity to the Air Corps base in Baldonnel. One can see the importance of the Defence Forces to the people of Kildare. The Army deafness claims had a major impact on the relevant personnel and as a result the morale of the Defence Forces suffered. There is no doubt morale in the Defence Forces suffered extraordinary damage in the period when the Army deafness cases were being highlighted in the media. While the matter seems to have settled down somewhat, it may be too early to say that a compensation board can be put in place because a number of other cases may have to go before the courts, and possibly before a different judge, before we know the courts will accept the Green Book report. In relation to the representative associations, a trial case has not been taken to the Supreme Court along the lines of the recommendations in the Green Book.
I hope we can put the compensation board in place. The feeling on the ground is that people do not want to go to court and put pressure on their families, despite the fact that in all the cases of which I am aware, the persons concerned believe they have a major deafness problem. It also creates problems within families, especially in relation to media coverage. Many of the people concerned feel they are being branded. It is sad that members of the Defence Forces who have served us with pride and distinction throughout the world should feel this way. It is a cause of major concern to family members and Army personnel to see the credibility of the Defence Forces being put into question, despite the fact that many of our soldiers have helped to bring stability to countries experiencing bitter conflict.
The representative associations question the strength of the case put by the Department of Defence on the cost of developing the Defence Forces. Observers maintain that further development of the implementation plan will mean barrack closures. This is a very sensitive issue. I know the value of a barracks to a town and its hinterland. In many cases it is even better than a major industry in the area. We must try to get agreement within the political aspects of the association and in the relevant constituencies and towns that will be affected by the closures. I ask that this is not put on the long finger. There should be an honest assessment of each barracks and the local communities, town commissions, UDCs and even county councils, should be consulted. They and the representative associations of the Defence Forces should be kept up to speed on proposals and developments. We do not want a fragmented approach to this matter, as happened in the case of the deafness claims. Such an approach has major effects on the Defence Forces. The Minister should ensure morale is restored as quickly as possible and that the ambitions of every young soldier, especially the new recruits and people who want to make a career in the Army, are met as soon as possible.
Over the past 30 to 40 years the Air Corps, the Army Apprenticeship School and Naval Service has turned out tradesmen who brought a passion to their work. As a tradesman I met many personnel from the Army Apprenticeship School, the Air Corps and the Naval Service who had left the Defence Forces to work in the private sector. At all times they were able to hold their head high and match anything that was put to them in relation to the trade they represented. We seem to be just matching the people who retire now, which is to the detriment of trades. State agencies, like Bord na Móna and the ESB, who were once the backbone of apprenticeship schemes, seem to be drifting away from that now. That is very sad. I hope that the Minister will rectify that as soon as possible. I want a vibrant Army Apprenticeship School, even though it is not located in my constituency. It has a major influence on tradesmanship. The Air Corps has taken on no apprentices, despite the fact that we are six months into the year. A definite decisions should be made at the start of each year to take in a number of apprentices to ensure semi-State bodies continue to be major players in terms of apprenticeships.
The equitation centre and the Army have always been part of the show jumping scene and all the other scenes we relate to the bloodstock industry. The Defence Forces have represented our country in many international competitions, such as the Aga Khan Cup in Ballsbridge.
As spokesman for the Labour Party, I hope we bring the Defence Forces together at this contentious time. There have been problems with morale, the closure of barracks and retirements, as well as the court martial which did nothing for the pride of the Defence Forces. We must move forward quickly rather than sporadically.
Our Defence Forces must once again be seen as internationally important. This must happen in the short term and there should be co-ordination between the representative bodies, the Minister and Opposition spokespersons. The reports on the Defence Forces, the Air Corps and the Naval Service should be looked at together, as soon as possible. We, the forces and the representative associations want to see the Defence Forces return to their former position.
Acting Chairman
On Deputy Fitzgerald's point about briefing on the Estimates, the clerk of the committee has contacted the Minister and his officials on that matter. While it has not been the practice in the past, there is no reason it cannot be done. Unfortunately, on this occasion notice was short but for future reference, that is the position. We will now deal with Vote 36: subheads A1-A7, which cover administration.
On consultancy services in A7, the Minister has been more modest in this area than some of his colleagues. I assume this refers to the Price Waterhouse consultancy.
No. The Price Waterhouse consultancy is under the auspices of the Taoiseach. We are concerned with being prudent in all of these matters. Despite the fact that we have been criticised for public relations costs, we do not have any and are handicapped in that respect.
It has not stopped the Minister.
Acting Chairman
The next section is subheads B to F which cover Defence Forces pay.
Will the Minister brief the committee on the current state of negotiations? What is the date for conclusion of these negotiations which have been ongoing for some time? Will the Minister address the issues of allowances, the security duty allowance and the allowance for overseas personnel? I understand the Minister and the Chief of Staff were optimistic about changes in this area during their recent visit to the Lebanon. However, since then I learned that those were the sentiments of the Chief of Staff rather than the Minister. Perhaps the Minister will give us the real story.
I do not know who the Deputy is talking to, she will require more briefing than I can give her.
I have received good briefing from ground level.
On the question of pay, we have had good negotiations with PDFORRA for a number of months. We have not quite reached an agreement but we have a broad idea of how matters will be concluded. There are a number of matters relating to allowances which are tied into that. There has been good co-operation and a realistic approach in the context of what can be afforded. I would like to give the Deputy a definite timescale. An agreement is not too far away but I cannot say precisely when. I am optimistic that there will not be too long a delay.
The UN allowances have not been increased for a considerable amount of time so I decided it was time to examine them. That will take some time as quite a number of matters have to be discussed with the representative organisations. I am optimistic that we can address the matter.
On subhead F civilians attached to units, are positions being filled in this regard?
In recent years there has been a slight decline in the number of civilian posts. At the moment there are about 1,260 civilian posts, which, by any standards, considering there are 11,500 people in the Defence Forces, is a significant number. However, there have been changes in contracting certain work, particularly in catering. There has been a need to rationalise and improve some of these activities in a number of organisations. A substantial number of civilians are employed in the Defence Forces, although there has been a slight reduction. However, there is no area with an urgent need for personnel where we have been reluctant to fill the position.
We discussed the Air Corps at length during Question Time. On numerous occasions I asked about the possibility of training some of our personnel in other countries. A maximum number of ten people can be trained by the airforce at any one time. In order to supplement the numbers, we should consider sending trainees to England or America to ensure we have enough personnel in the Air Corps, because of its importance in air-sea rescue and maritime defence. We may lose our chance, because of the jobs demand in civilian life, to increase numbers by not availing of the opportunity to form an alliance with UN countries in order to supplement personnel. If the limit training is ten people, perhaps two or three people could be trained in countries that will accommodate us. In that way we will be able to stop the haemorrhage of aviation personnel.
It would be foolhardy for me to deal with basic training problems in the Air Corps which do not exist. We have availed of international facilities to upgrade standards and ensured personnel are able to meet those standards where possible. Thirty senior, highly qualified pilots have retired from the Air Corps since 1996, the vast majority of whom took up more lucrative posts in civil aviation. That has caused an enormous haemorrhage in key areas. We need people for the Gulf Stream and air and sea rescue services.
We are awaiting the review of the Air Corps which should form part of the blueprint for the future. It would be injudicious, as we await consideration of the review by the Government, to engage in short-term measures which members know would not meet the needs. The opportunities in civil aviation have been quite incredible over recent years. The drain from the Air Corps would not be halted by taking action at basic training level. It takes a number of years for people to qualify and if one is unable to retain personnel for a reasonable period thereafter it presents real problems. In overall terms, there are approximately 990 people of various grades in Baldonnel, including 90 pilots. It is a very significant industry in that part of the country. We look forward to examining the review and going forward on the basis of ensuring we do the best we can to provide maximum services.
We have engaged in civilianisation in terms of the number of services to be provided in air and sea rescue. The pressure from civilian operatives in terms of the service they provide is likely to result in competition in the future. We have reached an interim stage and we are awaiting presentation of the review to Government. I am keenly interested in finding the best possible solutions within the constraints and limits that apply. We look forward to positive consultations after publication of the review and members' views on it.
It should be possible to guarantee the future of the Air Corps with the Celtic tiger. I realise that a healthy economy places demands on recruitment of pilots but other countries have managed this effectively. It is a catch 22 situation. If we are putting in the resources, if people see there is a future in it, if we can tackle the issue of pay and job satisfaction and people feel there is a future in the Air Corps one will find recruits who want to move in that direction. There will obviously be a turnover. This can be tackled by the implementation of long-term policies. We should not throw our hands in the air on this. I was glad to hear the Minister express his commitment to the Air Corps in the Dáil last week. I hope the Price Waterhouse review and the decisions by Government will point the way ahead so that we do not maintain the uncertainty that is present at the moment. There are solutions out there; although they are particularly difficult and challenging at a time of economic success.
Does the Minister feel there is adequate training for the Reserve Defence Forces? With the increasing numbers taking up the voluntary early retirement scheme, is there an opportunity for the people who left the Permanent Defence Forces to make themselves available for the Reserve Defence Forces? Is that a trend? Is it a possibility? It is a shame that we should lose the expertise built up by these people. I assume decisions on aircraft and the replacement of the Fougas are awaiting the Price Waterhouse review.
There is concern that medical services for the Reserve Defence Forces is very low at present. GPs in Galway withdrew medical services to members of the Reserve Defence Forces today because of a dispute over pay. That seems to be symptomatic of a wider problem and I draw the Minister's attention to it and ask that he investigate it and seek solutions. Is there a broader problem in relation to recruitment in the medical service?
Arrangements by the Defence Forces in engaging medical personnel outside the force are the same as those which apply to health boards. That is the national norm and we cannot depart from it.
In relation to the purchase of aircraft, the review will spell out certain requirements spanning a number of years as to how they see investment being made. Naturally that will have to be in concert with the national finances and how the Government views its circumstances. The Deputy raised the point about the VER and people being able to crossover to assist the Reserve Defence Forces. We are in the process of reviewing the Defence Forces. We want to have the fullest possible engagement and consultation on this issue and await its outcome. I am very much in favour of ensuring we have a good mandate for the Reserve Defence Forces who are stretched to their limits. It is primarily a voluntary exercise. About 9,000 of the 14,000 reserves will undertake the one week's in-camp training. I understand from recent discussions that perhaps more than 10,000 would be available to do the course.
I asked a question last week about the military hospital in the Curragh where provision is made for medical services for Army personnel, their families and retired members and I was told that the Gleeson report suggested it should be phased out. No date has been given as to when that will happen? Can the Minister give me any more information on that issue?
There are no plans to make immediate changes to what has been the traditional way of handling these matters. One could look at the system as being traditionally over-generous in the sense that some of the facilities available to the Defence Forces were also available to their families. Nonetheless, it is a tradition that has grown up and there are no proposals to change it. At the same time, we have to continue to look at the way medical science has developed and the extent to which we are able, in small units, to provide the best possible kinds of facilities. Quite a number of personnel in the Army use county hospital facilities, the Blackrock Clinic, St. Vincent's and the Mater hospital for treatment.
At a cursory glance, it would appear that the overall expenditure on medical services in the Defence Forces, considering that they are probably the fittest group of people in the country because of their training and job description, should be looked at to see how we can go forward. Beyond having a look at that there are no proposals for change. The traditions that have built up will still be continued. However, like every aspect of the work we do we must examine the best way of ensuring good medical facilities are provided as quickly as possible. The question is whether everything that was there in the past should be retained. Many soldiers are now opting to avail of more sophisticated units that are available throughout the country and we obviously have to keep an eye on that. You need have no fear of immediate change.
Will the Minister clarify the position of support services for the ministerial air transport service, the Government jet and its pilot? Are there difficulties in that regard? What are the likely costs of recruiting a pilot for that aircraft? Has the Minister had to face that matter yet?
We must recruit one key pilot from outside. As far as the Government jet is concerned, with the exception of two or three occasions that come immediately to mind when the aircraft was grounded for repair of some aspect that did not meet the strict aviation standards required, my recollection, off the cuff, is that there has been no occasion when we could not fly the Government jet because of an absence of experienced piloting personnel.
There was a report that the jet had to land at Dublin airport instead of Baldonnel because of a lack of crash rescue services. Is that likely to be dealt with? Can the Minister handle that problem in Baldonnel? How often has that been a problem in the past few weeks and months? Is it something that can be resolved or does the Minister foresee the use of Dublin airport for the future?
No. It is very likely that the use of Baldonnel for the Government jet will continue from time to time. We have no problem with regard to safety standards or the provision of additional equipment that would be required to meet changes in the future. Nobody has suggested that there is danger in the way things are conducted there. As the Deputy knows, standards change over time and new demands are made. We will look at those at the time. There is no problem at present.
The Government has not had to use Dublin airport because of unavailability of rescue people or standards of rescue facilities at Baldonnel?
Not at all. Whether or not the Government jet lands at, or takes off from, Dublin airport concerns many different matters which are entirely unrelated to facilities at Baldonnel.
So the decision to use Dublin airport has nothing to do with the availability and standards of crash rescue facilities at Baldonnel?
There may have been an event where, because of high winds, these decisions would be taken on the ground. Ultimately, landing in one place rather than another at a particular time because of winds is safer but the issue does not arise for 99 per cent of flights.
I thought it concerned personnel.
On one occasion I insisted, against aviation advice, that they jet land in Cork rather than Kerry because I needed to attend a function. I was working against the clock. The advice was not to land but I said, "Take a gamble, we will land here", and we did.
The Minister likes taking gambles.
Acting Chairman
Thankfully, nothing happened to you, Minister.
Admittedly, you cannot play around with these matters.
Some pay for it.
Acting Chairman
It is a dangerous matter.
There is no way I would suggest that one should do so, but urgency took over.
Acting Chairman
I propose that Deputy McGennis should take the Chair now as I must vacate it. May I have a seconder?
I second that proposal.
Deputy McGennis took the Chair.
Acting Chairman
We will now deal with subheads G to U -Defence Forces, non-pay. Are there any questions on that section?
Will the Minister explain what these subheads cover?
They provide for the purchase of ammunition and defensive equipment. The 1997 outturn was £8,512,000. It is up to £9.8 million now. There is an additional £1 million which is a demands downpayment on the armoured personnel carrier programme. That will appear in the Estimates for the next few years showing a fairly significant increase under that subhead.
Acting Chairman
We will move on to subheads V to Y - Other Services and Appropriations in Aid. Are there any questions on that section?
This subhead was raised in contributions during the initial stage. First and foremost, I want to scotch rumours and statements concerning recruitment, refurbishment and re-equipment. Deputies will see from the Estimate that there is no validity in that, nor will there be in future. Instead of being interpreted as affecting recruitment, refurbishment or re-equipment, any economies I make, including property sales enhance my capacity to do that.
It is also tied in with the hearing loss claims. When I became Minister I had a choice; I could take a hands off approach to this matter and let it roll, or I could act. It is very important for military personnel at all levels to understand this. Deputies have referred to the effect that media attention, and even comments from neighbours, have on morale. Army personnel could have faced such comments for the next 30 years because that was what lay ahead of them while these cases went through the courts. It is unique in the world for this to have happened. Every second week there has been a different high profile case and my Department is being blamed for the publicity. Everything in today's newspapers arises from yesterday's court decision. Everything that appeared in the weekend papers arose from what happened in court last week. Some 99 per cent of any publicity that occurs arises from a court adjournment or decision.
Army personnel had a choice to keep that on the agenda for the next 20 or 30 years but I decided it was something of which we had to gain control. We must parcel it in a different way otherwise it would affect not only morale. I have little sympathy for people in the Defence Forces who cry about publicity. If the situation had continued the way it was, some Government in the future would have decided not to take this money from education, health or roads, but to take all of it from the Defence budget.
Some people are worried about morale among the 11,500 personnel in the Naval Service, Air Corps and Defence Forces generally. However, it must be recognised that a substantial refurbishment programme is taking place, including new equipment, VHF facilities, investment in armoured personnel carriers and the first constant recruitment programme. I have little sympathy for people who cry about a morale problem with all these positive things happening in the Defence Forces.
We are trying to gain control of the one scud missile that was capable of crippling us completely. I would like public representatives to accept my point that there was no scope for choice in this matter. Some 12,000 claims would not be settled without public knowledge and the fact that Ireland was doing something different from anywhere else in the world could not continue in silence.
We are trying to move this out of the limelight and to treat the injured and the taxpayer in a fair manner while at the same time protecting our resources which are a vibrant part of the Defence Forces. I needed to clarify this point because I have been asked by a number of people how the deafness claims and the attention of the media developed. We are faced with much greater problems and I have tried to counteract them. As Deputy Fitzgerald stated earlier, I cannot be sure there will be an appeal. As Deputy Wall mentioned, it is possible another judge may make a different decision. However, I hope this will not happen and that we can proceed in a more realistic manner.
A substantial provision had been made for compensation claims in this year's Estimate, but on the basis of the judgment, not all of it will now be required. I cannot say how soon the cases will be processed, but not all of the provision will be required. I will shortly inform the Government how much I estimate will not be required. The Government has over spent almost £150 million in the first five months of this year and we will not have an opportunity to take Supplementary Estimates. All the over-expenditure has to be found in existing expenditure, and it will affect inflation. One of the reasons I am considering further savings is that I will be able to continue this positive work rather than interfere with it. PDFORRA over reacted to these statements. It does not realise this is a positive step.
I am grateful to Deputy Wall for his comments about Orchard Park. I do not deserve commendation for that because I am a firm believer in home ownership. People take much greater care of their houses when they own them. I look forward to repairs being done and the area being brightened up when the houses are transferred and people become owner-occupiers. I am conscious of the matters to which Deputy Wall referred about as the difficulties people experience in getting mortgages and loans because they do not own their homes. I look forward to further improvements being made in the Curragh which will cater for the diversity of this town-like Army complex and will include a greater mix with the public as well as representative involvement.
My colleagues in the past might not have acceded to his request - and I attach no blame to them - for security reasons. The change in circumstances as a result of the peace process, and the effect it will have on how we do things, will result in a more enlightened approach. It is very important for the morale of individuals that they own and look after their homes. In the process I will get a few million pounds - for which I was attacked by some so-called representatives of a modern Defence Force - which will enable me to do more for the Curragh. I am happy to pledge a lot of this money to the enhancement of other facilities around the Curragh. For example, the swimming pool has been closed because of security problems. Safety is a priority and if a place is judged to be unsafe, I must agree. My other decision will allow me to proceed with a refurbishment when I get an opportunity.
I have listened to these overtures to Deputy Wall. I hope Rathmines barracks will be mentioned in a positive light on the next occasion we meet the Minister.
The Deputy should have consulted me because I would have done a good job for her in Rathmines.
I wish to refer to the compensation cases and their cost to the State. Media reports today claim there will be a £50 million saving as a result of the case heard yesterday. Is this report accurate? How much have deafness claims cost us so far?
I agree with the Minister that the compensation issue should be put aside. As Deputy Wall said, the public, the Defence Forces and their representative groups will accept a fair compensation system where there is genuine disability. We can then begin to address the morale issue. The Minister said he had no sympathy for the morale issue. He must empathise with the problems that have been created by this issue.
That is not what I said. I am trying to solve the problem and that is why they will not listen to me.
I did not say the Minister created the problems. I said they had been created by this issue. I pay tribute to the Minister and his officials for their attempts to solve the issue. I am sure the officials had many sleepless nights trying to come up with solutions. The sooner we can come up with an alternative that everyone considers reasonable, the sooner the morale issue can be dealt with. The taxpayers' bill has been reduced by another £50 million as a result of yesterday's judgment. What will the total compensation claim cost? I know the Minister cannot comment on future court cases. What is his Department's assessment of the current situation, given the cases that have been heard since the Green Book was published?
I am not responsible for how press reports are compiled or edited. Assuming there is a clampdown on claims because they have been in the public arena for a long time, we estimate that total compensation should amount to almost £200 million, but members should bear in mind that this figure does not include 25 per cent of claims which, under the Green Book assessment system, have a zero disability. I did not include the zero disability claims in the £200 million because I agree with what Deputy Fitzgerald said earlier. If there is no disability under a fair system, all that is left is age related hearing loss, from which a great majority of the population suffer. In this case one is not allowed to approach a neighbour who is a taxpayer and expect to be compensated. However, I can see how the media report could have been devised. If the estimated £200 million for the total cost of hearing loss is divided by 11,000 claims, people might come up with £50 million for 2,500 claims. Should a court decide a person with zero disability, notwithstanding the Green Book assessment, is entitled to money - although yesterday's court case was thrown out - we are talking about a figure in excess of £200 million.
I have no sympathy for the morale issue because I live in the real world. If I had a major problem and needed to solve it I would have a choice. I could ignore it, let it fester and allow it kill me or I could lance it. If I cannot take the pain while I am lancing it, I have the choice to die more quickly. That is what I was faced with. I decided we would try to get control of the matter even though I knew it would be painful or the end result would be devastating for the Defence Forces. If a strong man cried when a wound was being lanced and the other alternative was to die, my sympathy would be exhausted.
I am overwhelmed by the drama.
Acting Chairman
No crying now.
I have not cried for a while. We have at this stage solidified what is going to happen in regard to the Army deafness cases. We spoke about funding for the further development of the Army and the vexed question of barracks closures. When is a decision likely to be taken in that regard? What is the present state of play? We must not let this get dragged out with rumours circulating about which barracks are to close. If that happens, it will result in a situation similar to that with the deafness claims and we will not be seen to be positive about the development of the Defence Forces. Let us put the Army deafness claims to one side and let the judges do what they must in that regard. Let us move onto the next stage, which is the most vital one for the new recruits, personnel who are not involved in deafness cases and those who wish to make a career in the Army.
The initial report stated a number of barracks would have to close to provide the funding needed for the development of the Defence Forces. When will that phase of the development of the Defence Forces take place?
As I said in reply to a question in the Dáil, I have for the greater part got very positive support from Front Bench spokespersons in the Dáil for all the measures we have taken up to now. A much more realistic approach is developing in relation to our property portfolio. Deputy Wall is correct that we must realise the value of some of these properties and see whether money can be reinvested in the continuing refurbishment, re-equipping and development of the Defence Forces.
Of course, it is tied in with many sensitive local economic issues but it is equally creating a very big organisational problem in terms of the reduced numbers in the Defence Forces. I was quite staggered recently when I studied its effect in terms of the numbers of soldiers required every day to man and provide security for these installations. Price Waterhouse in its report firmly attacked the number of personnel not available for operational duty and training because they had to man those properties. The developing peace process also provides us with opportunities to look at our future activities and how we can have a more mobile and efficient organisation in terms of United Nations activities.
Nothing is immediately planned in this regard but the first phase of the implementation plan outlined in 1996 that this review would take place at the end of the three years. I have thought about that. When the last Government made that decision it obviously wanted to allow a certain amount of time to the thinking required for this. There is no need to stick to an exact time for starting or implementing a review.
I am concerned about the impression that might be abroad about some of our extremely valuable properties in the context of the relief they could give in terms of private and local authority housing development to ease the housing crisis and for community facilities, commercial development and industrial development. When we talk about local sensitivities, there are many factors which can combine to provide changes from which people can gain advantages. When we have a chance to review this I hope we will be able to have very positive discussions at that stage with the representative associations and local communities. At least one of the representative associations has highlighted the problems that have been caused for personnel because of the spread out nature of what is involved.
I look forward to continuing to have a positive approach, both in terms of the involvement of my colleagues in the House and the representative associations, to make whatever decisions are necessary for the development of the Defence Forces.
I assure the Deputy that I have a number of options in regard to using money realised from the sale of available valuable properties. A tranche would be immediately directed towards the development of the Defence Forces. It is also possible to look at directing some of that money towards the community. If I can make savings in such a case it will help with the deafness claims. Whether the pounds come from the Deputy or from me, the Government will have to pay this money at some stage. However, I do not see this as an instrument to be used primarily for the deafness cases, beyond showing the Department's contribution. Where the Department has valuable property which has an alternative use, it can be disposed of to enhance the Defence Forces' reorganisation by providing moneys for refurbishment and re-equipping and present us with a better, tidied up, refurbished and well equipped Defence Forces for the new millennium. New recruits must be provided with proper accommodation.
I am ashamed of some of the facilities I have seen around the country. The military barracks in Nenagh town should be disposed of - it has an alternative use, is a prime site and is currently an eyesore and a disgrace. I have seen barracks in other places which will never be refurbished and have no real future but will remain as a blemish on the local community, with perhaps an alternative livewire proposition waiting around the corner which could enliven the whole place. The funds from such a sale would allow us to do positive work for the people I want to serve.
Has the Minister made any decision about barrack closures?
Nach raibh tú ag éisteacht liom?
I did not get an answer to that question. Have you made any decision about any particular barracks?
Of course I have not.
What is your timetable for what you have just outlined? You seem to be saying——
Today I am talking about principles——
You are the man who talks a lot about reality.
——which will guide me in the determination of whatever decisions have to be taken in the interests of the Defence Forces, taxpayers and local communities. The plan, the early stages of which were implemented by the Deputy's party, proposed that the review of Army barracks would take place after three years. I said that there is no reason to wait three years to do something one must look at quickly. I would be happy to go forward on that basis.
Bhí mé ag éisteacht, but I asked if the Minister had made a decision. His answer was no but that he was open to making a decision.
It is years since anyone like Deputy Fitzgerald asked me for a date.
Acting Chairman
I am sorry I am not a member of this committee.
Over a period of time I have met a number of retired Army personnel who unfortunately have no permanent addresses. Because there are so many residential properties within the remit of the Defence Forces, does the Minister envisage developing bedsits or flats for these retired personnel who may have fallen upon hard times? Some of the organisations which represent retired Defence Forces personnel could look at such developments in association with the Department, In many cases these people, who have no close relations, are going from flat to flat with no real objective and such an initiative would be beneficial. There are a number of such properties in the Curragh. Could the Department look into developing sheltered homes for ex-servicemen?
When I was Minister for the Environment I introduced a housing Act which provided for voluntary housing. Many people were sceptical about how successful that would be. As soon as the Bill was enacted, I approved one of the first grants for a Dublin complex for retired soldiers. I am concerned that some ex-servicemen have fallen on bad times and we should look at any opportunity to cushion them against the strong winds of loss of income.
I may look at premises on a partnership basis, though not only in partnership with retired personnel's representative associations. It is very important that our understanding of these problems is widened to embrace the kinds of facilities that are needed. More integration is needed. If one served in an area and is homeless one is not necessarily different from anybody else. I will look at this matter in concert with local authorities, health boards and other such agencies, including the voluntary sector.
Older premises may or may not still have something to offer, but those could have something to offer. It could be that discretion under certain parts of our Vote might allow us the facility to form that partnership on a full financial basis and that we would not be acting voluntarily or donating buildings. However, I cannot take full responsibility for this. It is primarily for the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the local authorities. However, wherever we think we have responsibilities or resources capable of supplementing what is already being done, or if we can take an initiative to spark off others, we will do so.
I appreciate that. It is something that could be worked on.
Acting Chairman
I support Deputy Wall's point as I grew up in Army married quarters. They are slightly different from other homeless people because they have led institutionalised lives for years and they are lost when their jobs are lost. Even modest accommodation is better than sleeping rough. The accommodation offered in Dublin is welcome and I compliment the Minister.
Subheads A to L refer to Army Pensions and Appropriations-in-Aid.
The Minister referred to swimming pools in the Curragh. There was a problem in that all the local schools used that pool, and the Minister should restore it.
Assuming that the Orchard Park tenant purchase scheme takes place quickly, new resources become available and enhancing safety costs at the school are not too expensive, I will dedicate these resources to upgrading the pool on those conditions.
I thank Deputies Fitzgerald and Wall as well as the acting chairman and Deputy Cooper-Flynn for their support. I thank all those who have worked so hard to prepare the Estimates. I look forward to a debate that will not concentrate on the deafness issue and to the day when we will not have to deal with that. We should concentrate on the positive developments which are currently taking place and which, it is likely, will continue to take place in future. I look forward to returning to the committee over the next three or four years to answer questions.
I thank the Minister and the officials who have had an extremely demanding year. We will return to the issue of compensation in the next few months as it has not yet been fully clarified, although we are on the way towards clarification and some boundaries being set. We need a boundary in terms of financial demands and morale implications. Publication of the Price Waterhouse report would be very helpful and the legislation, when introduced, will also make a difference. I join in the comments of Deputy Wall and the Minister about moving beyond the issue of compensation. There are many lessons to be learned in relation to its handling, implications at a legal and health and safety level and the manner in which the State handled cases brought against it. We need to learn from it and develop public policy from the lessons.
The Minister and his officials participated very effectively at the Committee of Public Accounts. It was a very useful exercise in terms of drawing some of the issues together. Some of the expenditure forecasts were, thankfully, larger than has turned out to be the case. I look forward to the discussions and some of the difficult political decisions which must be taken on the future of the Defence Forces, morale being restored and key decisions being taken over the next few months.
I thank the Minister and his officials. Today's meeting was positive. I am pleased regarding what has been said about Orchard Park and the possibilities of further investigation in relation to sheltered housing, etc. The most important issue is that when we move on the development of the Defence Forces we do so in a concerted and direct method and not in a piecemeal or fragmented manner. If we do not move positively we will return to morale defeating exercises.
Acting Chairman
This concludes the Select Committee's consideration of these Estimates. I thank the Minister and his officials for an extremely comprehensive briefing which made the business of the committee much easier.
The next meeting will discuss Estimates for Justice and related Votes and will take place on Thursday, 18 June at 11.00 a.m.