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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 2008

Vote 37 — Army Pensions (Supplementary).

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Defence: Vote 37 — Army pensions. I remind members that this is a Supplementary Estimate rather than the totality of the Estimates. This section of the meeting is due to finish no later than 3 p.m. so that we may consider the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform group of Votes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I would like to thank the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea, and his officials for attending and assisting our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate. A briefing note providing details of the Supplementary Estimate was circulated to members. If we adhere to a reasonably strict schedule, the Minister will address the committee for approximately ten minutes, after which each of the Opposition spokespersons will have the same length of time to respond. We can then have an open discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Again, I remind members they are only considering the Supplementary Estimate for Army pensions. They may discuss issues relevant to this individual subhead, but may not recommend increases or decreases in the Supplementary Estimates, and there are no votes. I now invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present for its consideration the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 37 — Army pensions, which is for a net sum of €13 million.

The Army pensions Vote makes provision for retired pay, pensions, compensation, allowances and gratuities payable to or in respect of members of the Defence Forces. The original Estimate provided a net sum of €183.8 million. This includes a small provision of €2.3 million for the payment of allowances to the spouses of deceased veterans of the War of Independence. Committee members will be aware that the last veterans who had been in receipt of pensions from my Department died a couple of years ago.

Subhead B is the main subhead of the pensions Vote and covers expenditure on all superannuation benefits in the case of former members of the Defence Forces and their dependants. It accounts for well over 90% of all Army pensions expenditure, which is, of course, largely demand-led. The original provision of €178 million in this subhead will be inadequate to meet all requirements and the gross shortfall is estimated at €14.45 million. This will be reduced to €13 million net when savings in subheads C, D, E and F and additional appropriations-in-aid in subhead G are taken into account.

Of the total shortfall, some €6.7 million relates to the costs of the two general pension increases that were authorised and paid during 2008 on foot of the Towards 2016 pay agreement, as well as the underlying upward trend in the number of pensioners. In that regard, the number of pensioners under subhead B has increased from 9,962 at the end of last year to 10,060 at the present time.

The balance of €7.7 million will cover the cost of certain improvements in the pension terms of enlisted personnel who were recruited prior to 1 April 2004, which have recently been the subject of formal agreement with PDFORRA. The main improvement involved is a substantial increase in the level of retirement gratuity payable to personnel with not less than 22 years' service. This revision applies to personnel who have retired since 1 September 2005. No provision for the cost of these improvements was included in the original Estimate.

Under the previous arrangements, the retirement gratuity for NCOs and privates stood at 25 weeks' pay after 21 years' service, rising by increments of two weeks' pay for each subsequent year, up to a maximum of 45 weeks' pay after 31 years' service. Under the recent agreement, the gratuity of 25 weeks' pay after 21 years stands, but will increase by four weeks' pay per year thereafter to a maximum of 65 weeks' pay after 31 years' service. The other improvements relate to changes in the method of reflecting certain allowances in pension calculation as well as making a small number of allowances pensionable for the first time.

I am pleased to advise the committee that the agreement concluded with PDFORRA also comprehends the new pension scheme applicable to enlisted personnel recruited to the Defence Forces since April 2004. The new military pension scheme is fundamentally different from the existing arrangements applicable to pre-April 2004 personnel. It involves moving from the existing system of benefits payable immediately on retirement after relatively short periods of service and regardless of age, to one under which preserved benefits will be the norm in the case of personnel retiring before age 50. The new superannuation arrangements for enlisted personnel will be more in line with those applying to other public service groups.

The main features of the new scheme, which will have a defined benefit structure, include the following: benefits will be calculated by reference to total service and pensionable pay at retirement; the minimum pension age will be 50; preservation of benefits will apply where retirement is before the age of 50; maximum benefits will accrue over a period of 30 years; and benefits will be integrated with the social insurance system, as in other public service pension schemes generally.

These developments are part of the wider public service pensions reform package which has been implemented in recent years. In particular, the Public Service Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 implemented the age-related aspects of those reforms and followed from the Government's consideration of the recommendations of the Commission on Public Service Pensions. Chief among the age-related reforms were the removal of the compulsory retirement age for certain categories of new entrants to the public service on or after 1 April 2004 and the raising of the minimum pension age for most new entrants from that date. Specifically as regards the Defence Forces, the 2004 Act provides for the making of a new pension scheme to apply to new entrants from 1 April 2004; for a minimum pension age of 50 for new-entrant officers and enlisted personnel; and for the exclusion of the Defence Forces from the removal of the compulsory retirement age in other areas of the public service. It will be appreciated that the nature of military service requires the continued application of appropriate compulsory retirement ages. The way is now clear to make a statutory pension scheme for new-entrant enlisted personnel in accordance with the provisions of the 2004 Act.

Discussions regarding the superannuation arrangements applicable to commissioned officers are continuing with RACO. Without wishing to pre-empt the outcome, I am optimistic that it will be possible to achieve final agreement in the near future. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. This Estimate is not contentious and has already been agreed with PDFORRA, which would otherwise have contacted us. The agreement has been reached following considerable discussion between departmental officials and PDFORRA. It basically brings arrangements for the Defence Forces in line with the rest of the public service, which is welcome because they are public servants like other people working for the State.

The previous time we discussed pensions I raised an anomaly between class A and class C PRSI contributions. With the new arrangement it is integrated with State pensions. However, a commandant who must retire at 56 will not be able to benefit from contributory pension until he reaches the age defined for State pension and therefore there is no financial gain. Is provision made to address that anomaly in the arrangements outlined by the Minister or is it a separate issue?

I understand that those who have joined the Defence Forces since 1994 do not qualify for special additional leave arrangements. I ask the Minister to clarify that matter. In discussion with people in the Defence Forces, I came across this issue and I understand it was discussed at the recent PDFORRA conference. This would also seem to be an outstanding issue.

I welcome the provisions for technicians in particular and for people such as mass riggers for whom an erector's allowance is made available. I ask the Minister to give more detail on the foreign language proficiency allowance. Will such allowances be pensionable under this new arrangement? I understand they will. The same is true of the NCO instructor's allowance and account holder's allowance. Will they all be covered when calculating pensions?

I understand there is a change in the operation of the five-year rule when calculating pension and the pay-related gratuity, especially regarding the technicians' pay. I ask the Minister to clarify the arrangements regarding the five-year rule.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. As Deputy Deenihan has already said, there is no dissension regarding the Supplementary Estimate. I seek some points of clarification. Will Defence Forces pensions be liable to the 1% income levy? Which allowances are allowed for pension purposes? For instance, are the Border service allowance, special duty allowance and overseas allowance allowed?

The new ideas arising from the agreement with PDFORRA are all to be welcomed. I seek clarification on the issue of transfer of service. In the case of people who retire from the Defence Forces and take up employment in the public sector, can I take it that the service is transferable to new employment? In regard to people taking up employment in the private sector, are there any provisions whereby the Defence Forces service can be transferred to a pension scheme in the private sector?

This point came up in last year's discussion of the Estimates. With the social welfare benefits that will accrue, people cannot qualify for a social welfare pension until reaching 65 for the State pension (transition), formerly known as retirement pension, or 66 for the State pension.

I raised an issue with the Minister's predecessor in regard to spouses of the veterans of the War of Independence. All of the veterans are now all deceased. The pensions to spouses of veterans of the War of Independence are paid one month in advance. There was a case in County Waterford where the family of a deceased widow was asked to recoup the outstanding amount of the pension. She died approximately halfway through the month and the Department sought the recoupment of the remaining amount. The Minister's predecessor changed the position in order that the money could not be sought. May I take it that that is the position in all cases, and that the Department will not look for the money back? Bearing in mind the people who earned this payment and the reason it was earned, this petty-mindedness should be gone forever. I seek final clarification of the matter.

In regard to wound and disability pensions, the figure of 791 is higher than expected. How many of those benefiting from these pensions, allowances and gratuities have what could be described as serious wounds arising from service either at home or abroad? Other than seeking these clarifications on behalf of the Labour Party, I support the Supplementary Estimates.

Deputy Deenihan raised the issue of pre-discharge leave which was abolished for personnel recruited from the early 1990s onwards. The Department has undertaken to examine the level of retirement gratuity for personnel who do not qualify for such leave. Therefore, there might be something we can do in that regard.

Deputy Deenihan has also inquired about the allowances that are now pensionable. He is aware that a number of allowances, including technician pay, are pensionable. To answer Deputy O'Shea's question, they do not include Border duty or security duty allowance. The new allowances being included for pension purposes are the NCO account holder's allowance, the NCO instructor's allowance, the mast rigger-erector's allowance and the foreign language proficiency allowance.

Deputy Deenihan asked about changes in the operation of the five-year rule. Previously, when calculating pension and pay-related gratuities, technician pay, etc., could only be taken into account if it had been held continuously for not less than five years before discharge. Under the agreement, technician pay, etc., can now be reckoned as long as the person concerned holds the pensionable payments under two conditions: first, for at least one year up to and including discharge date and, second, for an aggregate period of at least five years during the final eight years of service.

Deputy O'Shea has inquired whether Army pensions will be subject to the 1% levy. The answer is yes. He also inquired about the transfer of service. Service can be transferred if one is taking up another position in the public sector. The arrangments in each case will be negotiated between the Department of Defence or the military authorities and the Department in the public service to which the person is moving. Usually, there is a reciprocal arrangement whereby one Department takes staff from another and vice versa, and no money changes hands. However, it does not apply when somebody is moving from the public service to the private sector. Regarding the case mentioned in Waterford, in which there was an application to recoup money, we can safely say it will not recur. I would not like to see it happen again. It is a case of bureaucracy gone mad.

What about class A and class C contributions about which I asked about last year?

Another point raised concerned a person who did not qualify for a State pension because he or she had not reached the age of 65 years. In that case a supplementary payment can be made.

Is it being made?

Yes, but I am informed that it does not yet arise, as the change was introduced in 2004. Provision is being made. We are also negotiating to have the retirement age raised to 57 years. That would mean the supplementary pension would be paid for a shorter period.

What will be the pension requirement in the future? Has the Minister calculated the number who are likely to retire in the next five years, for example, and what the imposition will be on the Estimates for the Department of Defence? Will the level of pensions and gratuities increase during that period of time?

I am informed by one of my officials that it is expected there will be a small increase in numbers. A large part of the increase this year relates to improvements and changes to the terms of the pension schemes. A couple of hundred extra people are to be paid pensions. The number has increased to just over 10,000. I am also informed that for the foreseeable future there will be a small underlying increase in the number receiving pensions. As regards further improvements in the pension schemes, it is safe to say they will have to wait until economic circumstances permit.

I wish to have a point clarified. I know it does not arise yet but when a person retires on a pension below the level of jobseeker's allowance, is the supplementary payment to which the Minister referred the supplementary welfare allowance, or is it the case that one could be on a reduced rate of jobseeker's allowance?

We bring them up to the 50% level.

Is it a social welfare payment?

No, it is paid by the Department of Defence.

A total of 65 weeks' contributions is required for gratuity payment purposes, but generally in the public service it is 78 weeks. What is the reason for the gap in the Defence Forces? Is it due to other circumstances?

It is because the Army has its own separate pension scheme. Generally, it has much more favourable pension arrangements than others parts of the public sector. The Deputy might agree that the gap has been closed as a result of the change we made last year agreed with PDFORRA that brings the number up to a maximum of 65 weeks.

Are overseas allowances pensionable? Does the fact that personnel serve abroad enhance their pension level in any way?

No. That would make a significant difference to the amount we would have to find to pay Army pensions. The Deputy will be aware that overseas allowances are generous, not to mention tax free.

Members of the American defence forces are treated generously after service by virtue of the fact that they serve abroad. Was consideration given to providing for a pension benefit as an incentive to serve abroad? Given the risk involved, it would provide an additional incentive.

We cannot stray too much from what we are considering today and we have been very disciplined to date. However, on the issue of serving abroad in Chad, has the Minister made a decision on the continuity of the mission? My colleague, Deputy Dinny McGinley, also has very serious questions to ask the Minister today.

On Army pensions——

Will we receive any answers?

If the Deputy asks me a question on Army pensions, he will be sure to get an answer.

As Deputy Deenihan will be aware, nearly all parties in the House have been in government and there is no evidence to suggest any of them has ever considered, including the overseas allowance. The allowance is quite generous and tax free and allows people to save money. The main function of the Irish Army is peacekeeping and those who join do so in the expectation that they will be required occasionally to go overseas for limited periods to engage in peace-keeping.

On the question of Chad, the matter has not yet come to Government formally. My view, for what it is worth, is that we should participate in the follow-on UN mission. I will be recommending this to the Government, which has not yet made a decision on the matter.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending.

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