I wish to draw the attention of members to a typographical error. On page 53, section 46, line 24 the word "and" is to be realigned to the margin.
SECTION 46.
Question proposed: "That section 46 stand part of the Bill."
Question put and agreed to.
Section 47 and 48 agreed to.
I move amendment No. 109:
In page 56, paragraph (e), between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:
"(8) In addition to the powers to make regulations under the foregoing provisions of this section, the Society may, with the concurrence of the Miniser, make regulations provided——
(a) for the holding by the Society or any other prescribed body or institution of Irish language classes for apprentices or other persons seeking to be admitted as solicitors who wish to obtain such a level of oral and written proficiency in the use of the Irish lan guage as would be sufficient to enable them, if and when admitted as solicitors, to receive instructions, to advise clients, to examine witnesses and to follow proceedings in the Irish language;
(b) for the establishment, maintenance and periodic review by the Society of a panel of solicitors whose oral and written proficiency in the Irish language is sufficient to enable them to receive instructions, to advise clients, to examine witnesses and to follow proceedings in the Irish languages, and who are willing to provide legal services through the medium of the Irish language.
(9) on the coming into operation of regulations under subsection (8), subsection (3) shall cease to have effect.
(10) The Society shall provide a comprehensive management practice training module for apprentices or other persons seeking to be admitted as solicitors.".
The purpose of the amendment is to address the issue of the continuing statutory requirement for solicitors to pass two exams in Irish before they qualify. Their qualification is contingent on their passing both exams and this should be looked at. My party is supportive of the Irish language and it is for that reason we are trying to replace the existing statutory requirement with this statutory requirement whereby the Law Society would be obliged to institute proper language classes for apprentices or other persons seeking to be admitted as solicitors who wish to obtain a level of proficiency in the Irish language sufficient to allow them to take cases in Irish, and for the Law Society to provide a panel of solicitors competent to litigate or handle cases, to take instructions in the gamut of legal obligations, to follow proceedings in the Irish language and who are willing to provide legal services through the medium of Irish.
This would be respectful of the Irish language, given that it is the first language of the State and is guaranteed in the Constitution. It is desirable that the requirement that training be given in order to achieve competency in the Irish language should be kept. People should not just go through motions. Nobody takes the present outdated statutory exam seriously and it is treated as a farce.
The Law Society supports this amendment and it is prepared to introduce proper classes, which would allow for a panel of solicitors to be available to the public should it need to take litigation in Irish. It is prepared to update the situation surrounding the requirement that solicitors, as officers of the Supreme Court, be proficient in the Irish language. That is a valid requirement and my party supports it, but it should not be compulsory or a token gesture to the Irish language. It should show real respect based on a proper course and exam leading to the panel of solicitors proficient in the Irish language. I look forward to the Minister's response.
Ós rud é go bhfuil an-mheas agam ar an Gaeilge tá bróin orm nach féidir liom ghlacadh le leasú (a) anseo. While I do not support paragraph (a) of the amendment, I appreciate the intneiton behind it. However, I find it strange that any group would get so bound up with regulations that it would come to the Minister go get permission to conduct classes in Irish. Why should an organisation not hold classes in Irish every day of the week if necessary rather than go to the Minister or their society to get permission? It should be free to hold classes. If it respects the Irish language, it is up to it to hold classes regardless of any regulation. This is unnecessary and it appears to be a form of compulsion although I know that is not the intention. As regards seeking permission and making regulations to hold classes, it should be a fundamental and an automatic right.
With respect of Deputy O'Donnell, I hope the Minister does not accept paragraph (a) of the amendment. However, paragraph (b) is necessary. There should be solicitors who are able to conduct business through Irish.
I will clarify the situation for Deputy Browne. I am proposing an alternative as the present arrangement is two statutory compulsory examinations in the Irish language which solicitors must pass to be admitted to the profession. I have known people from Northern Ireland who studied here in Irish universities and did their Law Society exams, but who failed the Irish examination and had to wait for a year to resit it. They have been disallowed from continuing their professional career because they failed that statutory Irish examination.
There is an element which discriminates against Northern Irish students who study here. I know that English solicitors and European nationals who want to practise here are exempt from the compulsory Irish examination but if Northern Irish students study and enter the Law Society here they must pass it. Failure to pass precludes them from going on with their studies. It is a very basic examination but students with no competence would not pass it.
I propose that the rather technical requirement that people pass the examination be replaced and that the statutory requirement be deleted and replaced by this more focused requirement that solicitors are competent in the Irish language. This amendment is not driven by the Law Society, it is driven by my experience that the examination is not treated with respect by the profession. It is a totem pole approach to respect for the Irish language and does not mean anything. With the present system we do not have a solid panel of solicitors sufficiently proficient in the Irish language to do the job, which is the purpose of the statutory requirement. It is time, when we are debating the Bill, to look at this hoary old chestnut. If the Minister consults the Law Society he will see that it is agreeable to the deletion of the present statutory requirement and willing to replace it with this more focused and reasonable response to the requirement that officers of the Supreme Court should have a competence in the Irish language.
Section 49 is drafted widely enough to enable the Law Society to organise Irish classes, as Deputy Browne says, or to do anything it likes. The position in relation to Irish language requirements for solicitors is set out in section 40 of the Principal Act and I do not believe that those requirements are unreasonable.
Irish is the first national language and there are good reasons for retaining the existing statutory provisions which require solicitors to have a competent knowledge of the Irish language which is sufficient to enable a solicitor to receive instructions, to advise clients, to examine witnesses and to follow proceedings in it. Our courts are public institutions and it is appropriate that provision should be made to enable individuals to have their cases conducted in the Irish language. In the case of conflict within the text of any copy of the Constitution the text in the Irish language shall prevail. The courts have considered the Irish text of the Consititution to elucidate the meaning of the corresponding English provision. Constitutional law is the fundamental law of the State from which all other laws are derived. No study of Irish law would be complete without a knowledge of the Constitution.
Solicitors who qualify in the State make up the great majority of solicitors practising here. I do not think it is unreasonable that they should have a competent knowledge of the Irish language. Exemptions are provided for lawyers from EU and other states. I appreciate that the Deputy has framed the provision in such a way that it is not mandatory. The amendment provides that the society may make regulations, but only with the concurrence of the Minister and that following the coming into operation of such regulations the existing statutory provisions will cease to have effect.
This provision is enabling in effect only and I am not disposed to include it in the Bill. I know the Law Society wishes to see the removal of the current statutory provisions and, while the amendment would not necessarily achieve that, it would assist the Law Society's objective. As regards the second part of the Deputy's amendment, which requires the society to provide a comprehensive management practice training module for apprentices or other persons seeking to be admitted as solicitors, I do not think it is appropriate that specific requirements should be placed on the society in this regard.
Section 49 of the Bill has been drafted sufficiently widely to allow the society to provide in management practices for apprentices and qualified solicitors. I understand that the society is at present providing management training and will be keeping the need for changes in training in management of practice under review. A special committee of the society is concerned with practice management and I understand the society will be issuing new guidelines soon in this regard.
On balance it is best in this area of education not to tie the society down too tightly in regard to the areas of training which a solicitor must undergo. I think we can safely leave these matters to the society to deal with in the light of changing circumstances and the new powers given to them under the legislation to organise any sort of education, or postqualification, they wish.
In relation to the Irish language question, I note the constitutional argument is always there and we could spend 12 hours talking about it. The Irish language is the first official language under the Constitution and the English language is recognised as the second official language. We could have a row about how good that is or how right it is in the light of our future with Northern Ireland and what the Unionists would say about their language being the second language of the State.
On Second Stage the Minister referred to the questionable provision in the Constitution that in a conflict between the English and Irish texts in the context of interpreting the Constitution the text in the Irish language shall prevail, but that was added in 1941 without reference to the people under the transitional powers of the Oireachtas. It is a big issue but an important one. The Minister did not respond to the fact that Northern Irish students, of which there are many, who come here to study law, have to pass this ridiculous examination that nobody takes seriously. People cog it, it is regarded as a complete joke and is disrespectful to the language.
It is about time that the Irish language and its requirements in a focused way was taken seriously. We now have an opportunity to do so, the Law Society is willing to change its arrangements to introduce a focused and specific examination which will turn out a product at the end of it. At the moment about three people can take a whole case through Irish from the District Court to the Supreme Court. This is not in line with the original requirement. At least this alternative arrangement would allow for a panel of solicitors to come out suitably qualified which would be in the public interest.
I glean from the Minister's response that he is taking the conservative approach to this issue and by mentioning the Constitution I am back in Fianna Fáil intransigent territory. I regret that given there is a move for us to change our institutions in the context of the joint declaration. The Taoiseach said we should look to all our institutions which might be perceived by the Unionist community as prohibitive and exclusive. This would have been an opportunity to make some indent into that. However, I accept that the Minister will not accept my amendment. I have had an opportunity to state my case on it and I am unapologetic about it. I do not feel any less Irish for it.
On the question of the comprehensive management practice training for apprentices, this goes back to the point that I made earlier that solicitors can qualify without knowing anything about accounting, the management of client fees, about even the basics of running a practice and I know, because friends of mine have done it, that solicitors have qualified without knowing how to read a balance sheet.
At the moment the society provides management practice training on a continuing legal education basis, that is post qualification. That is not sufficient, they should be providing a module in management training before solicitors are qualified. That is not the case at the moment. In the interests of turning out solicitors who are rounded people and rounded business people, because they will be managing other people's business, not to mention their own, they should have a comprehensive management practice training module before they qualify. I regret that the Minister feels it is restrictive on the society — this Bill is about restrictions on the society. While we are giving it instructions, why not raise this matter? It is something that every solicitor knows is deficient in the training in the pre-qualifying stages and it is a pity. I ask the Minister to take it up with the Law Society when he meets it to talk about other matters.
Despite what Deputy O'Donnell has said, we have to go on what we have before us. Perhaps there should be an amendment to get rid of the farcical Irish examination that Deputy O'Donnell says exists — I do not know anything about it. Nobody would need to attend these classes as there is no examination. The Law Society could set up classes at which nobody would be present — that would be no help to the Irish language. We talk too much about Irish and too little in Irish. It would be an easy solution for the society to set up classes and everybody could go off to the pub while they were going on. The amendment may have been meant with the best intentions but, even if the Minister accepts it, I cannot see it fulfilling anything.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 49 agreed to.
Sections 50 and 51 agreed to.