They are all Irish passport holders. We get these figures from embassies so it stands to reason they are passport holders. Not all these prisoners are held in countries which have ratified the convention and would not all be eligible under its terms. The statistical information in January 1994 was that there were 402 Irish prisoners in the UK. At the moment there are 35 Irish paramilitary prisoners in the UK but a far greater number do not belong to paramilitary organisations. There are four Irish prisoners in Belgium, 14 in France, four in Germany, two in Greece, one in Italy, seven in the Netherlands, one in Portugal, one in Spain, one in Canada and eight in the US.
It is clear from the soundings we get that paramilitary prisoners would probably be the first group of any size which would seek to be transferred. Each of them would have to be dealt with in the way I have proposed either in the Bill or by way of amendment. The country holding prisoners must also agree to transfers. I pay tribute, as I did on Second Stage, to the Commission for Prisoners Overseas for its approach to getting the convention ratified by this country. It thinks that in the first year of the implementation of this Bill, about 40 people might apply for transfer and this would level off at about ten a year after that.
Deputy O'Donnell is right that we cannot deal with this Bill as if it has no effect on our Exchequer costs and prison places because it does. We have a problem with prison places here, I have never denied this since I became Minister and I do not think any previous Minister denied it. For that reason I am proceeding with the building of 210 extra prison places, 150 for men and 60 for women. There are overcrowded conditions in Mountjoy. The way in which we are bringing in this Bill and ratifying the convention will have to take into account how capacity will be affected by taking back those prisoners. There is no point in pretending to people in prisons outside this country that they will be automatically transferred after applying. I must take into account the effect on prison numbers here at the possibility of having to release prisoners here to make space.
It is true the peace process has helped in allowing me to make decisions like this because some prisoners from Portlaoise have been released. There is a freeing of places which might become available. I believe the balance will be struck somewhere between the cases made by the spokespersons for the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil. We must make this as humanitarian as possible and give access to people to apply for transfers.
I must be allowed flexibility in deciding whether I can accept an application at the time it is received. I must take into account the kind of prisoner who has applied and the spaces available. If a woman applies for a transfer and the only place available is in a male prison, I cannot be asked to put her in this prison. If the only space available is in a woman's prison, I cannot put a male prisoner there. Members of the committee, some of whom have obviously carefully studied the convention and the Bill, must be conscious of the balance I have to achieve.
Deputy O'Dea asked about quota flexibility. When Ireland signed this convention in 1986, we added a codicil to say this would be subject to having prison places available. I indicated on Second Stage that I have not decided to do this but when a convention is being ratified a proviso can be added that availability will have to be taken into account. It stands to reason that any transfer will have to take this into account. I cannot take prisoners back to Ireland and release them into the community. They are coming back to finish their sentences here so it stands to reason I must take into account the availability of places and have the power to control the numbers to give credence to this convention.
In response to Deputy Walsh's point, which is well made, the reasoning behind this convention is not only to assist prisoners to serve their sentences in the country where they were born and want to be, but also to ensure that when a person is imprisoned, his or her family is not also sentenced. The family has not committed any crime. Allowing people to transfer back here gives access to their families.
I cannot be precise about the figures but somewhere between the comments made by the two Opposition party speakers is the right balance.