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Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Thursday, 13 Jun 1996

Estimates 1996.

Vote 19: Office of the Minister for Justice.
Vote 20: Garda Síochána.
Vote 21: Prisons.
Vote 22: Courts.
Vote 23: Land Registry and Registry of Deeds.
Vote 24: Charitable Donations and Bequests.

I welcome Members, the Minister and her officials. Our meeting today is convened for the purpose of considering the 1996 Estimates for the Department of Justice. This is our last meeting on the Estimates as we have already dealt with those of the Department of Defence and the Department of Equality and Law Reform.

I have no doubt we will have an interesting and informative debate a suggested timetable for which has been circulated to Members. I understand the Minister will be available until 1 p.m. As we discussed at our meeting on Tuesday, I do not intend to curtail debate on this important issue. If we do not complete our considerations this morning we can schedule another meeting. However, I am hopeful if not confident that in the three hours this morning we will have sufficient time to deal with the matter by way of making substantial progress. With this in mind, the timetable is more of a guide than a schedule.

Following the opening statements, I am anxious that Members should confine their remarks to Votes 19 to 22, inclusive, and that there should be no cross debating. If we do not stick to the Votes as outlined we will not have the kind of productive debate and informed question and answer session that everyone would like. Having said that, I will be as flexible as possible. In the circumstances, however, Members will be aware of our obligation to deal with the Votes on an individual basis.

I am glad of the opportunity to debate the Estimates for the Department of Justice. We have already made a few attempts to get the debate going and I am glad we have now succeeded.

On a practical point, and having taken on board what the Chairman said, I have a script which is available. However, if Members do not mind I will touch on each of the paragraphs rather than reading them fully so we will have more time for a debate rather than statements.

Before we proceed to the detail of the Department of Justice Vote, I want to say a few words about the horrific and appalling attack on two detective gardaí in County Limerick last Friday. I express once again my sincere sympathy to the family of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe who was so brutally murdered. I also wish to express my good wishes and prayers to Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan who was seriously injured. I have had an opportunity to see his family and the family of the late Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. On facing those people one understands the enormity of the tragedy that has befallen them. All members of the committee will join me in utterly condemning that brutal attack and expressing sympathy to the families. At tragic times such as this we are reminded of the huge debt we owe members of the Garda Síochána who put their lives at risk daily in the course of their duty in protecting our property and the security of the State. It is easy for us to be caught up in our own lives when we know that members of the Garda Síochána protect us. These two gardaí were doing that and, as a result, one of them lost his life. I know the sympathy of the committee is with the two families.

Moving on to the topic under discussion today, the total sum published in the Estimates in respect of the Department of Justice Vote is £614.318 million. This is an increase of £41 million over last year's outturn and underlines the Government's commitment to tackling crime. In its policy document A Government of Renewal, published in December 1994, the Government indicated it would press ahead with a programme of reform of the justice system. In the time since that policy document was published, I have tackled deficiencies in the areas encompassed by the Department of Justice group of Votes. Problems have existed to some extent in this area for a considerable length of time and, while calls have been made on successive Governments for solutions to be brought forward, it is evident that until now such calls did not meet a sufficiently resolute response. I will outline several areas where I have implemented initiatives.

In January 1996 I announced the establishment of the Garda Síochána regionalisation plan. That encompasses setting up a regional structure for areas outside the Dublin metropolitan area. This will achieve greater operational focus in Garda operations. I have also set up the Garda national bureau of fraud investigation, the first ever dedicated bureau of fraud investigation. It has been provided with new premises at Harcourt Square and all the necessary technology required to assist in the detection of fraud has been made available. A civilian accountant has been appointed to the bureau and there are ongoing discussions about further civilian appointments. The automatic fingerprinting system, which cost £1.8 million, has been installed and is operational in Garda headquarters. It will reduce the amount of time required to identify fingerprints from 500 man hours to 10 minutes. That is an enormous advantage for the Garda Síochána. The committee will be aware that I recently obtained approval to set up an air support unit for the Garda Síochána. I have provided £200,000 for that purpose this year and at present a technical group is preparing tender specifications for the purchase of the aircraft involved, a helicopter and a fixed wing aircraft.

There have been many debates on the drugs issue so I will not go into detail about the subject again. The package of measures I announced last July contained not just legislative proposals but a number of practical arrangements that had to be implemented to tackle the scourge of drugs. Many of the elements of that package have been put in place. The drug trafficking legislation currently before this committee will give the Garda the extra powers, subject to appropriate safeguards, it requires to deal with this menace.

It is vital — we have debated this issue many times — that we target the proceeds of crime, including the moneys made from drug trafficking. I signed a commencement order under the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, implementing the anti-money laundering provisions of the Act. This Act is already proving a valuable weapon in the fight against crime. The Director of Public Prosecutions recently secured a restraint order under the provisions of the Act following arrests made in connection with suspected drug dealing. I understand its provisions relating to disclosure of information regarding suspicious transactions are being complied with to great effect. More than 300 disclosures have been made by financial institutions to the Garda authorities under the provisions of the Act and the lodgments are being investigated to see if there is a connection between them and serious crime.

Another important development regarding the Criminal Justice Act has been the approval by the Dáil and the Seanad of draft regulations which I have drawn up under section 44 of the Act. The regulations will come into force tomorrow and will enable the Garda Síochána and customs and excise officers to seize and detain cash being imported into or exported from the State, where the amount is of a value of £5,000 or more and where the garda or customs and excise officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the cash is derived from, or intended to be used in, drug trafficking. Any cash so seized can be detained and forfeited by order of a court.

The courts system has seen little change since it was first established and, despite every effort by many dedicated staff to provide a reasonable level of service, the system is failing in some respects to meet changing and ever-increasing demands. The substantial level of delays in the hearing of cases has been a major concern for some time and I am satisfied that the Courts and Court Officers Act, 1995 will go a long way in enabling the courts to tackle the present delays and to efficiently and effectively dispose of cases coming before them. Under the provisions of that Act, 15 additional judges will be appointed in 1996. Three additional Supreme Court Judges and three additional High Court Judges have already been appointed. The Act also contains provisions which introduced administrative and procedural reforms to simplify and speed up the processing of cases through the courts and enhance their overall efficiency.

It is clear that more fundamental reforms are required and for that reason I established the working group on a courts commission, under the chairmanship of Mrs. Justice Susan Denham, to examine the overall operation of the courts system. The Government has accepted in principle the recommendation of that working group that an independent and permanent body be established to manage a unified courts system. This body will be known as the Courts Service and will be set up by statute as an agency of the State. The report recommends that the service will be managed on a day to day basis by a chief executive officer of departmental Secretary rank.

As a result of that decision, the working group has been asked to submit further reports on how the establishment of a new courts service can be progressed. The working group will also continue its work in accordance with its terms of reference to review the day to day operation of the courts system and will submit further reports before the summer on other elements of the courts system that require modification. This will occur even before we establish the new courts service. I take this opportunity to express my appreciation of the commitment and dedication of Mrs. Justice Susan Denham and her colleagues. She has informed me of the enormous efforts made by the members of the working group and she looks forward to continuing to work with them until further fundamental changes take place in the courts system.

The committee will be aware of the drugs problem and pressure on accommodation in our prisons. It will also be aware — although it is not the nature of the Opposition to give the Government credit — that I have put in place a series of measures aimed at both preventing drugs getting into prisons and providing necessary treatment for drug addicted prisoners. With regard to the measures to aid prisoners who wish to shake their habit, the drug free unit has now commenced operation. Testing and so forth takes place there on a daily basis. The new drug treatment facility will provide up to date treatment for prisoners who are found to be suffering from serious drug addiction. The bulk of prisoners suffering from drug addiction problems arrive in prison with those problems. I will not say that nobody starts taking drugs when they are in prison but the majority of the people who are involved in drugs inside prison already had the habit when they arrived. The new drug treatment facility will provide detoxification, methadone maintenance and the delivery of an integrated drug therapy programme to assist addicts to full recovery.

On the accommodation front, as Members will know, I announced a package at the end of January this year for an additional £3.7 million in the budget which, added to the £14.5 million for building and maintenance, has been provided in the Estimate for works in the current year. It is planned to provide 278 additional prison places under this programme between now and the middle of next year. Already, 68 of these places have been brought into use at St. Patrick's Institution and Mountjoy. Construction works for the new special unit for 25 offenders at Castlerea and for the conversion of the military detention unit at the Curragh for 68 offenders are under way and will come into use later this year. Plans to create an additional 105 places at Portlaoise Prison and 55 places in a replacement wing for the closed down derelict wing at Limerick Prison are at a very advanced stage and these works will commence as soon as possible. In the slightly longer term, planning for the new women's prison for 60 offenders, beside Mountjoy Prison, and for the main prison development at Castlerea, are being progressed and there are moneys in this year's Estimates to do so.

In relation to legislation, the Courts and Court Officers Act has been passed. The Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) Act dealt quickly and efficiently with a difficulty which came to light about the reporting of court proceedings. The Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill is currently before this committee and the Criminal Law Bill which tackles the problem of outmoded distinctions, has been dealt with on Second Stage in the Dáil and is now coming to this committee for Committee Stage.

Other measures are currently being drafted. A Non-fatal Offences against the Person Bill will update our law in this area. The Children Bill is with the Attorney General and will represent the most fundamental legislative reform in the area of juvenile justice since the foundation of the State. I recently obtained approval from Government to have a Criminal Law (Insanity) Bill drafted. I have been concerned since I became Minister about the need to bring greater efficiency to criminal procedures. There has been folklore, gossip and talk about ineffective operations in our courts, gardaí etc., yet nobody did anything about them. I am doing something about them in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which will contain a number of measures to problems such as Garda time wasted in connection with court proceedings. There is also the issue of bringing prisoners to courts where they have been first sent to prison. Often a day is taken up in travelling just to get someone remanded in a one minute hearing. Year after year, I have heard people criticising the courts and the law system yet nobody has done anything about it. Something is being done now that will speed up the whole process.

In dealing with crime I do not have the luxury of Opposition Members. I have to be sure of the nature and extent of the problem in taking on methods and efforts to tackle crime. All too often, the debate on crime takes place in the aftermath of one particular incident. While this is understandable, it does very little to develop our understanding of the nature of the crime problem in general and what must be done by society as a whole to respond. There is a need for an informed public debate on the issue as Members of the House, the Commissioner and others have said. My Department will facilitate this debate by preparing and publishing a discussion paper on crime on the general lines of the paper already published on prison policy.

In addition, I have announced my intention to establish a Crime Council, where we can bring together statutory and voluntary agencies with the business community, trade unions, professions and other community interests. They can sit down together and discuss crime issues in an informed way. Often, what is one person's solution to their area of crime creates a problem for another section of law-abiding society. We must make sure we have a more comprehensive, unified debate on what are the right mechanisms which will not cause problems for others. I have been looking at the type of structures in place in other countries — for example in Denmark where a broadly based council has been in existence for some time — so we can learn from them.

In relation to statistics, it is important I know the nature and extent of crime. A good starting point in considering the crime problem is to look at the figures. The level of crime overall has been on the increase since 1990 and provisional figures for the year ended 31 December 1995 indicate that this trend continued in 1995. Provisional figures available for 1996, incidentally, suggest that the overall level of reported crime may now, in fact, be dropping. While this is welcome and encouraging news, it would be prudent to await final figures for the year as a whole lest we draw unwarranted comfort from what the provisional figures appear to be telling us. Returning to the 1995 statistics, the number of reported crimes increased by 1 per cent on 1994 — not very high, but nonetheless an increase. Let us examine the figures.

In relation to the Dublin Metropolitan Area (DMA) the incidence of burglary — which accounts for one crime in three — decreased by 5 per cent overall in 1995. Aggravated burglary and robbery involving the use of firearms also decreased — this time by 12 per cent. These decreases were offset largely by an increase of 17 per cent in larcenies from unattended vehicles. In fact, this type of offence has been a major influence in the increase in crime witnessed in recent years.

I am happy provisional figures indicate that crime outside the DMA — that is taking all the divisions outside Dublin together — decreased in 1995. The increase has been in the DMA. This may not be in accordance with the perception and the headlines, but it is the reality. I am not taking this as a reason for complacency.

The incidence of burglary outside Dublin decreased by 6 per cent overall in 1995. However, as with Dublin, there was an increase of 4 per cent in larcenies from unattended vehicles throughout the country.

I am particularly concerned about the upward trend in the level of sexual crimes, particularly in the categories of rape and sexual assault which has been a feature of crime statistics in recent years. The number of reported rapes in the country as a whole increased by 28 per cent in 1995. We cannot say whether this upward trend is the result of a real increase in the incidence of sexual crime or an increased tendency to report sexual crimes. There has been a reluctance by people to report sexual crimes, perhaps because of the way they were handled by the gardaí or the courts, or because they did not want to go public. It is likely that both factors contribute to the increased statistics.

The downward trend in the commission of serious crime involving the use of firearms continued in 1995 — there was a decrease of 7 per cent in the country as a whole and 12 per cent in the DMA for 1995. This is to be welcomed.

I have commented on some detailed aspects of the crime figures because it is important to look closely at the facts. We owe it to the public to ensure that our comments on crime — and we all understand the seriousness of the situation — are based on fact, not on hype or perception.

There is one other important point I want to make about the crime figures. Offences against the person — and this covers offences such as murder, sexual offences and assault — make up a small proportion of overall crime. In 1994, for instance, the last year for which complete figures have been published, there were 1,327 offences against the person out of a total of 101,036 indictable offences recorded — in other words about 1.3 per cent of the total. There is a very high detection rate for these crimes and it is right we should commend the gardaí in this regard. In 1994, for instance there were 1,080 detections for offences against the person. In making these points, I am not seeking to minimise the seriousness of these offences or say that we have nothing to worry about simply because the numbers are perhaps lower than one would be led to believe. We have to keep the problem in perspective. It is of little consolation to the victims of crime here that crime in many other Western countries is much worse. However, it is important to recognise that the increase in crime here is part of a worldwide trend. Throughout the world, there is widespread recognition that we must tackle the root causes of crime if we are to obtain a meaningful long-term reduction in crime.

There is a danger that people are automatically accused of being soft on criminals if they begin to look at the more deep-seated reasons that crime becomes more of an issue each year. Those who commit crime must understand that their behaviour will not be tolerated in our society and they will pay a price. However, we cannot be blind to the fact that many of those who commit crime come from a depressingly similar social background.

These factors can never excuse crime but they help to explain it and perhaps also help to put in place policies that might minimise the routes through which these people come into crime. That is why we in the Department of Justice have put in place programmes to divert people from crime. I have spoken about these often and through our Garda and probation and welfare service community-based programmes are working very well for that purpose.

Vote 19 is for the Office of the Minister for Justice. It encompasses the data protection commissioner, the Garda Complaints Board, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, the forensic science laboratory, funding for criminal legal aid and for the payment of grants, including a contribution to the expenses of the Irish Association for Victim Support. The Estimate is £28.268 million and represents a 21 per cent increase on the outturn of 1995.

The committee will note that the 1996 provision for criminal legal aid is £9 million and the outturn for 1995 is expected to be £7.988 million. This is a 13 per cent increase above the actual expenditure for 1994. This trend and the continuing increase in the number of claims have been taken into account in the framing of the 1996 Estimates.

Members will also note that under a new subhead, A 10, we have an Estimate to cope with increased expenses arising from the EU Presidency. The main priority for the Presidency in my Department is the advancement of work on the drugs issue and this greatly extends the remit of our co-operation in the European Union forum. A wideranging schedule of meetings, totalling 115, in relation to Justice and Home Affairs matters is planned, including an informal meeting of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers which I will be hosting in September.

Subhead G of this Vote relates to the proposed refugee applications commissioner and the refugee appeal board which will be established following the enactment of the Refugee Bill, 1995. It was passed in the Dáil and is still going through a rather long process in the Seanad. Until the Bill is passed I cannot make any further progress on it.

Subhead F is for the office of the data protection commissioner. The committee will be interested to note that as a result of a campaign conducted by the data commissioner to get more data controllers to register there were 300 new registrations during 1995. A new registration fee structure has been introduced with effect from 19 May 1996 to provide a more balanced fee structure. This followed complaints from small firms with small numbers of employees. We have scaled the fee so the bigger firms pay a larger fee for registering.

The provision for the Garda in Vote 20 is £425.672 million. This represents an increase of £19 million over last year's outturn. Apart from increased salary costs the additional funding will be spent on the implementation of the recommendations included in the commissioner's corporate strategy for 1993-1997. I am glad to say that a number of these initiatives have been implemented and work on the remainder is progressing. Garda recruitment is continuing at the same level as in 1995 and 700 Garda trainees will be recruited this year and next year.

There is a provision of £7.74 million for the current phase of the Garda information technology plan, a four-year programme costing £26 million. Since the plan was approved in 1993 work has continued on developing the major part of the plan from the conceptual design stage to the issuing of a request for tenders and final selection of a preferred supplier.

There is provision for £2.46 million for capital expenditure on communications equipment. The development of a new Dublin metropolitan area voice and data network will be the main item of expenditure from this provision. Without going into detail, it will allow much more co-ordinated and effective communication between groups of gardaí in the work they are doing and it will allow extensions of projects such as the CCTV, which I will mention later.

A considerable amount of investment has been made in improving Garda accommodation in recent years. In the two years 1995-96 in which I have been involved some £17 million has been allocated. This year alone nearly £9 million has been allocated, £3.1 million of which is included in the Garda Vote for maintenance with the balance in subhead E of the Vote for the Office of Public Works for major capital and refurbishment projects.

In 1995 as a consequence of having allocated additional funds from the Garda Vote a significant number of major works were carried out. There are new Garda headquarters and stations at Raheny, Donnybrook, Castleblayney, Creeslough, Convoy, Listowel, Ramelton, Edenderry, Dunleer, Partry, Freshford and Rhode. These works could not have been carried out without my having diverted extra funds towards them. This confirms my commitment to eliminating accommodation problems. Many Deputies will attest to the fact that it will still take some time to eliminate the accommodation problems.

I am providing funding for the youth diversion projects. I made reference to those earlier, as well as the need to take young people out of the pathway of crime which very many of them enter when they are as young as five and six years of age. We have eight urban-based schemes currently in operation and I am providing for the establishment of a further two this year. The schemes involve the participation of gardaí, voluntary groups, the business community and local youths and I am very heartened by the level of their success.

CCTV as an aid to policing has been established in the Temple Bar area and I am providing further funding this year for the expansion of this scheme. Work on a system in the O'Connell Street area of Dublin has already commenced.

There is provision in the prisons Vote for a total of £117.9 million. This represents an increase of £9.8 million or 9 per cent over the 1995 outturn. The single biggest provision under subhead A of £74.3 million is for wages, salaries and allowances and this is £0.57 million higher than 1995. Subhead A covers basic pay, overtime and allowances.

The committee will no doubt be aware that there has been significant expenditure on overtime in recent years. The outturn for 1995 was £16.24 million. The provision for 1996 is £13.5 million. This is a decrease of £2.7 million or 17 per cent below the 1995 outturn. I accept that is still a significant amount of money. However, the nature of the service provided by the prison service means that demands for staff cannot always be planned. Demands within prisons, and the need for escort of prisoners to and from courts, hospitals and between prisons, must be responded to as they arise and very often necessitate the recall of staff to work overtime. Members will recall what I said about the criminal justice legislation. It represents an effort to cut down on the amount of overtime that will be needed to bring people long distances to court for one minute appearances.

The Transfer of Sentenced Persons Act has come into effect and as a result we are receiving and processing requests for transfer. Approximately 100 Irish people serving sentences abroad have expressed an interest in transferring. The bulk of applications under the convention — some 89 — are from Irish prisoners serving sentences in England. There are six in the US and four in Northern Ireland. Applications are also being processed from 26 foreign prisoners in Irish prisons who have expressed interest in a transfer to their country of origin. Most of these — some 16 — are from England and seven are from Northern Ireland. To date three prisoners have been transferred into this jurisdiction.

In the area of community-based alternatives to prison there is a provision of £2.89 million in my Estimate for 1996 for voluntary bodies involved in the provision and operation of hostels for offenders and running of workshops. This is an increase of 11 per cent on 1995.

In the courts Vote there is an estimate of £26.6 million. This again is an increase of £4.3 million or 19 per cent over the 1995 outturn. I am aware that the many of the courthouses fail to provide the facilities necessary for person, members of the legal profession and the court staff. In the light of that I have included an extra allocation of £7.39 million for capital and maintenance projects this year.

I am also very much aware of the need to provide facilities for family law business. That was mentioned on the radio this morning. I need facilities to allow conferring and family law cases to take place in private and confidential surroundings. I am ensuring that we provide the best facilities in the refurbishment programmes that we are carrying out at present. All new major court refurbishment includes family rooms and will also include user friendly facilities such as places for the victim support groups. The courts service must be more user friendly and in that regard a range of information leaflets are in the course of preparation for the benefit of child and adult witnesses and the parents of child witnesses. These leaflets, which will be issued shortly, will explain court procedures in a user friendly way. I am committed to providing a court service which is speedy, accessible and just and I will continue to take the necessary measures.

Turning to Vote 23 for the Land Registry, £15,608 million is being provided in 1996. This represents a 19 per cent increase on the 1995 outturn. Considerable investment is being made in computerisation and information technology. Members will know that the service now being provided by the Land Registry is far quicker than when I came into to the Dáil in 1981 when people told me about two to five year delays. Even getting information from the Land Registry was very difficult, but that has changed. The Department has been made aware of that by the lack of parliamentary questions being asked. This used to represent a high percentage of questions.

The committee will be aware it has been decided to relocate part of the Land Registry operations to Waterford. About 150 staff will be relocated there. I understand the Office of Public Works anticipates that a contract will shortly be signed with the developer of the office complex to house the Land Registry office in Waterford with the accommodation expected to be ready for occupation by the end of 1997.

Vote 24, in respect of the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests, is the final one. The provision in 1996 is £210,000.

I thank the committee for allowing me this opportunity to go through the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As we progress through the debate today, I am sure we will be able to tease out some of the issues. I understand Members in their opening statements will trawl through a range of issues, but I will try to confine my answers to issues raised in relation to particular Votes even if Members ask me wider questions.

Before I call Deputy O'Donoghue, I welcome him back following his recent illness. Some Members of the committee perhaps hoped the Justice Estimates might be disposed of in his absence.

I thank you for your kind words, which I appreciate. I join the Minister in extending my deepest sympathy to the family, relatives, friends and the Garda Síochána following the atrocious act committed in Adare, County Limerick, which resulted in the death of Detective Garda McCabe. It is imperative for me to say that the murder and the serious wounding of two members of the Garda Síochána is not just an attack on the individuals concerned, atrocious as that may be, but it is an attack on the Force and in turn an attack on a democratic institution of this State. The reply of democracy in such an instance must always be that the perpetrators of such a vile deed will face the full rigours of the law. I also wish Detective Garda O'Sullivan a full and speedy recovery.

Moving on to the Estimates, an old and well worn cliché is that there are lies, damn lies and statistics. The statistics presented by the Minister outline where there have been percentage increases. However, when it comes to stating where there are decreases, we do not hear of them. The best way of looking at expenditure by the State on the Department of Justice in any year is to look at the level of expenditure as a percentage of Gross National Product.

If one looks at the expenditure or the forecasted expenditure by the Department of Justice for 1996 as a percentage of Gross National Product, one finds the estimated or forecasted percentage is 1.70 per cent. This compares with a percentage of 2.14 per cent in 1986. At 1.70 per cent, we are witnessing the lowest expenditure for many years by the Department of Justice. It is an unfortunate truth at a time of escalating crime levels. One does not wish to exaggerate the problem but neither should one attempt to underestimate it.

The 1994 the Garda Commissioner's report stated that the number of indictable offences had increased beyond 101,000 for that year. The increase the following year may have been of the order of 1 per cent but that figure represented an increased to in excess of 102,000 serious indictable offences in that year. It may be true there has been a slight decrease in the first couple of months of this year, although we do not have the official figures. If it is true, we must face up to the fact that it has been accompanied by a severe increase in the viciousness with which offences have been committed.

If one requires evidence of that, one only has to look at the increase in the number of murders in 1995 to 43. One only has to look at the number of murders committed in the first five months of 1995 compared to the same period this year to see the figures are alarming. The Minister said the 1994 Garda Commissioner's report shows that the number of offences against the person only amounted to 1,300, but the report from which she quotes shows that offences against property with violence amounted to 44,313 in 1994, an increase on the 1993 figure of 44,131.

I do not need to quote statistics to establish there has been an increase in the viciousness of crime because everybody knows that. Nonetheless, it is important to put that on record when there is a clear attempt to underestimate the gravity of the problem facing society. It is extremely disappointing that the estimate of the percentage of Gross National Product being spent on the crime problem represents only 1.7 per cent which reflects of the priority which the rainbow coalition Government attaches to that problem.

I suggest that this buttresses the argument and establishes beyond a reasonable doubt the statement of the President of the Garda Representative Association at his annual conference in Waterford in May when he said "it would appear that this Government does not care about crime". The Minister established a new Garda Síochána regionalisation plan and in so far as it went it was welcome. We have a tremendously committed Garda force, they are the envy of many aspiring democracies who in turn aspire to their standards, but the Garda Síochána as a force is being run down. Those are not my words either. That expression was used in an editorial in the magazine of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, that the force was being run down and that those charged with the placing of members of the force are finding themselves in a serious situation in that they simply do not have the personnel to tackle the problem in a meaningful way.

There have been new recruits to the Garda Síochána over the last two years and no doubt this will continue into next year. This recruitment proposal was the brainchild of the previous Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, and she is to be congratulated on it, but we are now witnessing in the face of an extremely serious crime problem in this country the depletion of the force. There are fewer gardaí in the force today than there were this time last year and there were fewer gardaí in the force this time last year than there were the year before. There is a clear need for a new recruitment policy to be implemented by the Minister without delay. The sad truth is that natural wastage in the force is outstripping recruitment. That is something which cannot be tolerated if one adds the problem in relation to the 300 gardaí who had to be sent to the Border to take up duties regarding the protection of that area from infected animals.

I strongly suggest there should be a radical recruitment policy which recognises that the nature of crime has changed dramatically, that a drug culture has begun to seep into the very fibre of society and that drug related crime, which may well account for the increase in its viciousness, is a reality. In that respect, it is time for an improvement in technology but that will not be of no benefit unless those recruited have expertise in modern technology to a certain extent. It is also of considerable importance that some new recruits have professional expertise in areas such as accountancy and law. A modern society facing drug related crime and white collar fraud needs a Garda force which can reflect and react adequately to that new society.

The promise of an air support unit is welcome. It was announced in a great fanfare of publicity, but it has not appeared. One look at the Garda Commissioner's report for 1994 establishes beyond any doubt that the drugs problem is becoming more serious with each passing day. The sheer increase in the seizures in 1994 is of breathtaking proportions. For example, the increase in the amount of ecstasy tablets seized appears to exceed 1,300 per cent. There has also been a substantial increase in the seizure of other drugs. Whilst that is welcome and the authorities concerned are to be congratulated, it is imperative to remind ourselves it is estimated that the amount of seizures in any given year may account for only between ten and 15 per cent of the drugs being imported into a given country. That indicates a serious problem and in tandem with the falling price of drugs on the streets, should herald the truth for society. We face a problem which threatens the very fabric of society and new and radical measures are, in this context, required to tackle the problem.

The drug sub-committee of this committee recently interviewed the Revenue Commissioners concerning their role in tackling the drugs crisis. The membership of the committee was extremely disappointed with the replies which it received. There was no fault with the officials who were giving the replies because they were merely transmitting a message. The message which we got loud and clear was that the apprehension by the Revenue Commissioners of people who are ostensibly very wealthy with no visible means of income leaves a considerable amount to be desired. There appeared to be resistance to the establishment of a national drugs enforcement agency or a special task force of the relevant authorities, inclusive of the Revenue Commissioners, to specifically tackle the problem. This may have more to do with the division of powers within bureaucracy than with the efficacy or the urgent need for a national drugs enforcement agency because such an agency in the face of what is an emergency is required.

It is a matter of historical record that the Minister for Justice introduced certain measures from the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, which was passed into law during the tenure of her predecessor, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn. It was March 1995 before the Minister implemented the anti-money laundering provisions of that Act. That was approximately 100 days after the Brinks-Allied raid, which I described in colourful language at the time. Whatever about that and the fact that the proceeds of the Brinks-Allied raid were long gone before the March 1995 regulations, the Minister certainly surpassed herself in bringing into operation section 44 of the 1994 Act. It took a full 18 months of her tenure before the Minister decided this should be implemented. That may again be described as the greatest piece of political procrastination since Nero watched Rome burn.

Every second day extremely serious trials in the criminal courts are being adjourned ad nauseam because there are not sufficient judges and administrators to deal with them. One could speculate that an individual charged with murder today may not have his or her case brought to trial until 1998. That is a terrible indictment of the criminal justice system. It is a scandal which must be rectified by the Minister for Justice. Such an individual may be a hardened criminal and, due to the current bail laws, may well be allowed bail because he may not be refused bail on the basis that he is likely to commit a further serious offence while on bail. Lawyers in the criminal courts shout from the rooftops that the courts system is not just in difficulty but in chaos. It is extremely serious in any democratic society when the criminal justice system has reached the stage where hardened criminals will not receive justice from their peers for a substantial period. In this context, people involved in civil litigation or in family law litigation well know the lengthy unendurable delays they must suffer. One must ask why this is so. The principle reason is there simply are not sufficient resources available to the Department of Justice to tackle the problem. In that lies the truth and, indeed, the tragedy.

On the prisons, the Minister for Justice heralded as a cornerstone of her criminal justice policy that she would implement the decision of the Fianna Fáil led administration in the dying days of that Government in the autumn of 1994, to provide a new high security prison at Castlerea, County Roscommon, and a new women's prison at Mountjoy prison in Dublin. In her absence the decision on the prisons was cancelled by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, who used a political cudgel to bludgeon the promises of the Minister for Justice. This resulted at first in the Minister for Justice supporting the decision made in her absence. It also resulted in an increasing confidence among criminal elements in Irish society. If one committed a serious indictable offence, the likelihood was now less than before that one would serve the punishment that fit the crime. Following severe pressure in the Dáil from the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats, the Minister for Justice did a u-turn. Given the penny-pinching where the Department of Justice is concerned, the Minister for Finance reluctantly agreed to provide £3.7 million for additional prison places. That sum will not and could not provide a 150 place high security prison at Castlerea, County Roscommon, let alone provide a prison for 60 women at Mountjoy prison in Dublin. It could not provide anything like that. The Minister for Justice went to Castlerea and said the prison would be opened and 25 places would be provided there. She had better ensure, in the interests of her credibility and that of her Department that she will obtain resources in the 1997 Estimates to provide adequate prison spaces. It is a fundamental truth that until a message goes to the criminal elements in society to the effect that if they commit a serious criminal offence not only will they go to prison but they will stay there until they have served their debt to society, the fight against crime must surely be lost.

The words "at a very advanced stage", "at an advanced stage", "imminent" and "very imminent" were used by the Minister with regard to prisons.

I did not use "very imminent".

They are of no benefit to the people or to the victims of crime.

In an early burst of admirable enthusiasm the Minister for Justice said in the spring of 1995 she would hold a referendum on bail and we strongly supported her. Why has she not been able to hold such a referendum? Since the O'Callaghan case in 1966, the law is quite clear. Bail can only be refused in general terms on two grounds: first, where there is a likelihood that the accused will abscond; and second, where there is a likelihood that he will interfere with witnesses. This interpretation of the law, as set down in the O'Callaghan case in 1966, reflected a law which was "adequate" for a relatively drug free society. However, our current bail laws do not reflect the kind of crime being committed or the criminal we are dealing with and that is an absolute fact.

An habitual heroin addict requires treatment and he will not get it for a long time under the present policies. He is highly likely to commit a further offence if he is granted — he must if he is to feed a habit which can cost between £40,000 and £75,000 a year. Although a judge in a criminal court will know for sure that the accused will definitely cause a serious indictable offence, his hands are tied and he must let the individual go. That must change and the Minister for Justice has acknowledged that. In fairness to the Minister, she did not receive the support she deserved from her Government partners.

Will the Deputy conclude his remarks? He exceeded the time given to the Minister and has used twice the time allocated in the schedule.

The Labour Party and Democratic Left have taken the Fifth Amendment when it comes to bail. They had no difficulty in supporting the cancellation of the prisons. Those who are most vociferous in those two parties, mostly in relation to the portfolios of Fine Gael Ministers, seem to have nothing to say about bail. Since they will not support the Minister, they must then oppose her but that is not being told to us. Any proposals the Minister said she would bring to the Cabinet within six weeks last January do not appear to have seen the light of day. Is this because the Minister is again being opposed by the same parties?

There has been a legislative drought from the Government. Fianna Fáil introduced eight Private Members' Bills in the Dáil and some of them were copied by the Minister for Justice, although in a poorly watered down fashion. However, our positive proposals have either been ignored or voted down in the Dáil. Unless there is a radical change in the attitude of the Minister for Justice and the rainbow coalition Government to the crime problem the fight against it will become increasingly difficult, if not lost altogether.

Deputy O'Donoghue forgets that his party also held the reins of the Department of Justice; this is more amnesia.

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I join with the expressions of sincere sympathy to the families of Detective Sergeant Jerry McCabe and the good wishes to Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan, who was wounded in that attack. However, we must question whether our sympathies or expressions of support and recognition of the members of the Garda Síochaná, who risk their lives daily to protect our society, are enough. Is it correct in a democracy that questions about the murder of a garda while on duty, allegedly by subversives, should be relegated to an Adjournment debate lasting five minutes? That we have not marked this event with a greater level of scrutiny and debate is part of our self-delusion in the context of the peace process.

My party requested a full debate on this matter last Tuesday, recognising the gravity of the situation and the threat to the security of the State following the use by subversive of weapons against a member of the Garda Síochaná in the course of his duty. That debate and Special Notice Questions were refused. That is a measure of the national self-delusion in which we have been engaged from the threat to the security of this State posed by the existence here of a hidden subversive arsenal.

This matter would certainly come under the remit of this committee.

There must be few opportunities available if Special Notice Questions are the basis of having a debate.

Special Notice Questions are at the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle. I have no hand, act or part in saying whether they are or not allowed.

The elected assembly of Dáil Éireann has not as yet debated or scrutinised what happened in Adare.

The State will spend more than £600 million on law and order including money for the Garda Síochána, the courts and the prison service. Rather than always seek more money, my party believes that we must consistently question and scrutinise the continuous large expenditure of taxpayers' funds, whether we are getting good value for money and the level of services this expenditure delivers to the public. Although there is massive expenditure in the Justice area, it is a sad irony politically that much public and political debate is dominated, justifiably, by perceived and real inadequacies in the services provided. This is naturally accompanied by a general loss of confidence among many citizens in the quality of the justice system.

Out of a total expenditure of £600 million on Justice, the courts services will account for £38 million or less than 5 per cent of the overall total in 1996. This is clear evidence of political and budgetary neglect of these services over the years and has led to the chaos there, to which Deputy O'Donoghue referred. The courts, by all accounts, are close to collapse. The delays and backlogs in our court system have a devastating effect on litigants, particularly in family law matters. They severely hamper the smooth conduct of industry and commerce and the administration of criminal justice and substantially add to the high cost of litigation.

Our party suggests that the courts service should be a separate executive agency independent of the Department of Justice and that the relevant recommendations of the Denham Commission should be implemented. While the Minister has accepted its recommendations, an aspirational acceptance is not sufficient. The Minister should set out a clear timetable for the conversion of the courts service to executive agency status. There is no reason the necessary legislative and administrative changes cannot be completed within two years. We will be legislating for divorce later this year and, therefore, these services must be provided.

Many bad things have been said about our prisons. The prison budget for 1996 is almost 40 per cent higher than it was five years ago. It will be used to deal with an increase of only 7 per cent in our prison population. Despite a budget increase of £34 million, there has been no discernible improvement in the prison service. It is getting worse as was seen recently when people experienced difficulties trying to obtain a copy of the report of the Mountjoy visiting committee.

The prison service overtime bill for 1995 was £16.2 million, which was equal to 30 per cent of total basic pay. This is an inordinately high figure by private and public sector standards. The overtime allocation is the largest single item under the salaries subhead of £74.3 million. It is expected to fall to £13.5 million. That is stated every year in the Book of Estimates, but it has never been achieved. The Minister said the nature of the prison service is such that demands for staff cannot be planned. Why is that the case? The reason is that there is no planning in our prison service.

One cannot plan that someone will be sick.

The overtime figures are a scandal. The overtime allocation last year would have been enough to pay another 1,000 prison officers the average basic salary.

The most recent annual report for the prison service is for 1992. That is totally unsatisfactory. If annual reports are not published promptly, they are of no practical use to politicians or to the public in assessing the performance of the prison service. We endeavour, through parliamentary questions, to extract from a retentive administration details which might tell us the truth in these matters. The prison service should be an independent executive agency, as recommended by the Whitaker committee and as we suggested in our Private Members' Bill. There is no mechanism to properly account for the day to day running of the prison service.

There has been no response to the revolving door syndrome in our prisons or to the large number of prisoners who have escaped from open prisons. How many of those who escaped have been returned to jail? It was difficult to get these figures from the Department of Justice in a series of parliamentary questions.

The number of gardaí serving in the force in 1996 is 10,825, which is an increase of 225 since 1991. While the number of gardaí has risen by just 2 per cent since 1991, the cost of running the force has risen by 32 per cent or over £100 million for the same period. There is a clear difference between cost and the consequent effect on services.

Does the Deputy want more?

Employing civilians to do administrative Garda duties is the most cost effective way of putting more gardaí in the front line in the fight against crime. We must not only look at the number of gardaí who are deployed but where they are deployed and what value the State is getting for them. Some 400 gardaí are still doing clerical and administrative work which could be done more efficiently and cheaply by civilians. Based on the 1996 Estimates, the cost of a civilian worker at £14,000 per year is little more than half the average cost of a garda, at £26,000 per year including overtime and allowances. It makes sense to speed up the civilianisation programme.

The Minister did not refer to the bail laws. Why would she mention the promised reform of the bail laws, which she loudly trumpeted when she came into office, when she cannot get agreement in Cabinet? As Deputy O'Donoghue said, there are irreconcilable ideological differences in Cabinet on this matter. Despite frequent promises that proposals will be brought to Government, there is no indication that the Minister for Justice will be able to reform the bail laws by a constitutional referendum or by legislation. We need some reform of the bail laws. Nobody seeks to minimise the difficulties involved in this or the rights of the public to be safe. As Deputy O'Donoghue said, we need reform of our bail laws to take account of our recidivist criminal population. It is a matter of despair that nothing has happened.

It is also a matter of despair that many communities, which are alienated and have lost confidence in the ability of the authorities to maintain effective law and order in their communities in the face of everyday crime, are becoming involved in vigilante activities. The Government has not put in place adequate measures to respond to this development.

The justice system has been criticised and although the problems are not the Minister's fault, they are her responsibility. Her constant attempt to apportion blame is politically inept. The Minister was appointed by the Government to take responsibility for the justice system and to account to Dáil Éireann and to this committee, not just to the Opposition. The £600 million which will be spent this year will not give value for money and it will not deliver a justice system which inspires confidence in our citizens. This is our only opportunity, apart from parliamentary questions, to make the Government accountable for the money it will spend on the justice system.

The public has no confidence in the ability of the Government to make decisions which will have an impact on the current high levels of crime. I have said before that getting tough on crime is not about introducing oppressive legislation, bringing back the birch, being unreasonable or striking fear into our citizens but about making and keeping tough, strategic decisions. If the Government accepts the Denham Commission, for example, it should implement it. If it accepts the Whitaker report that the prison service should be established as an executive agency, separate from the Department of Justice but with better accountability structures, it should implement it. Instead of commissioning more reports, we should implement the recommendations of previous reports which have been accepted by all sides of the House.

I look forward to discussing the Estimates in detail. We should use this opportunity to point out the criticisms of the present administration of justice, which is the Minister's responsibility.

I join others in expressing my sympathy to the family of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe and I wish a speedy recovery to Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan. Before dealing with the Estimates, I must state that I am disturbed at reports of injuries to two prisoners, a Mr. Quinn and a Mr. Sheehy, as detailed in today's edition of The Irish Times. I understand this matter is being investigated by a Garda officer but I would like the Minister to comment on any information she may have on the nature and cause of these injuries. I am sure Members agree that injuries to prisoners in Garda custody are a very serious matter.

The Deputy should be careful in making statements.

I am merely stating that the sooner this matter is clarified the better.

I am not sure the committee will hear statements on that matter today. We are discussing the Estimates and it has little bearing upon them. It would be unfair and untimely for the Minister to comment in that regard.

That is for the Minister to decide. It was necessary to raise the issue but I will leave it at that, and proceed to the Estimates. I will not be able to trawl the entire range of the Estimates. In the time provided, I will probably not even be able to deal with issues of immediate concern to me.

I welcome the Minister's expressed determination to confront the problem of drugs which increasingly affects the centre of Dublin and many other areas. While I support the package introduced by the Minister. I have stated on many occasions that it is inadequate. References made today to the increase in seizures of drugs reflect the huge scale of the problem. I am concerned that the main drugs barons who are holding this Government and country to ransom and destroying communities, remain above the law. It seems that the law cannot be effective in confronting such people. I cannot accept a situation where all the resources of the State cannot be used against a handful of criminal elements who are causing havoc and long-term tragedies on a massive scale.

I do not lay the blame for this on the present Minister. The problem has been neglected for 15 years. However, the Minister for Justice has a responsibility to discover the measures required and see that they are implemented. Many people recognise that the Revenue Commissioners and other agencies have failed to gain access to the assets of the main drugs barons. It has been suggested that we should consider the establishment of a multi-agency task force but I regret there was no reference to this in the Minister's statement. The Revenue Commissioners admitted to the sub-committee on drugs that they failed to secure a single conviction against the drugs barons. Where there is failure, there is a need for a new approach. I do not know the nature of the problems encountered but we were informed they do not involve extra powers or intimidation. The Minister should urgently consider the establishment of a specialist task force comprising representation from the Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners and the investigation branch of the Department of Social Welfare. Such a task force should be given a list of the main drugs barons operating in this country and the necessary resources to pursue them. Until that happens, we will be ineffective in our response to the problem.

There are a number of other issues which, despite the Minister's expressed determination, do not appear to have been followed up with the necessary redeployment of gardaí at local level to prevent open street dealing in drugs in this city. That failure to deploy gardaí and give priority of resources to the drug issue has led to communities literally taking control of their areas. The frustration about the lack of any effective response at local level has encouraged isolated incidents of vigilantism. It has also led to communities organising themselves and taking control of housing estates and flats complexes. This should not be the role of communities; it should be the role of the gardaí to work with people and deal with the problem at street level. That is not happening.

While saying this, I pay tribute to the special Garda drug unit based at Store Street in my area. Its members have been extremely active and are quite successful, but they have been overwhelmed by the problem in the huge district they are obliged to cover. The unit does not have the manpower or resources to cover the area for which it has responsibility. I attended public meetings in the Bridewell district and the residents have requested the establishment of a local Garda drug unit to deal with an increasing drug problem there. The view of the people involved is that such a unit will not be set up until the problem becomes so bad that it will not be able to deal with it. That has been the experience in the past.

On the Government's national co-ordinating committee which clearly does not represent the voluntary groups or agencies that deal with the drugs problem, while it does not represent those people, the committee cannot provide or formulate an effective overall strategy to deal with the problem. The people who work on a daily basis in community organisations and voluntary agencies have firsthand knowledge of the problem and, in many instances, have highlighted the direction policy should take in dealing with the drugs problem but they are excluded from the Government's national co-ordinating committee. To me and the community groups to which I refer, that is a nonsense and a contradiction.

I ask the Minister to look at this issue and get these people involved. She met them at local level, is aware of how well versed they are in the issue and how clear their ideas are about how to confront it. However, there are no adequate structures or channels to allow those people to play an effective role and, in my view and theirs, the only way they can do so is if they are represented at national as well as local level.

I will not refer to the chaos in the courts, other than to support the comments by the two previous speakers and to give one example. One drug dealer who has caused great problems in the centre of Dublin is coming up for sentence in the next two weeks. It is at least two years since that individual was first charged with a major heroin seizure. Since being released on bail he has been charged on three separate occasions with the same type of offence involving large amounts of heroin. That experience of the courts and bail speaks for itself.

On the prisons, while massive overcrowding continues in Mountjoy it will be impossible to provide proper treatment or a proper response to its drug problem. The root cause of all its problems is gross overcrowding. I pay tribute to the governor of Mountjoy, Mr. John Lonergan, who is a most compassionate, humane and good governor in the interests of the prisoners and society. However, as long as huge overcrowding continues and many prisoners have serious drug problems, tragedies such as the young woman who killed herself within hours of being admitted to Mountjoy will continue. These must be unacceptable to all of us, yet the overcrowding and completely inadequate conditions in Mountjoy are the cause of those tragedies.

The Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977, provided for the establishment of custodial treatment centres. These were never set up, with the result that the problem has over the years been left with the authorities in Mountjoy. Some people have scapegoated those authorities as though they were the cause of the problem, which could not be further from the truth.

The rise in contract killings is a most serious trend, particularly because the gardaí appear to be unable, for whatever reason, to apprehend those involved. As long as that continues we will see an increase in this activity. People will be shot and killed for the most trivial reasons because it has begun to be seen as a way to settle scores for which one will not get caught. The most serious offence in our State — murder — is seen as something which cannot be dealt with effectively. I ask the Minister to comment on these issues. Many, if not all, of these contract killings have been confined to internal criminal differences but the fact that the gardaí appear to be ineffective in catching those involved will lead to an expansion in such activity which will not be confined to internal criminal differences but will extend to other people. That is the real threat posed by this activity. I hope that its current confinement to the criminal fraternity does not mean it will not get the resources or the response required to get those who are involved. We should not wait until these people attack targets beyond the criminal fraternity.

I am anxious to move on to the Votes because we have not commenced our deliberation on the Estimate. I will allow Deputies to speak in accordance with our discussion on the Votes. Moving to Vote 19——

If everyone else is allowed double time, why do Government backbenchers come to committees? We have to listen to what I sometimes regard as propaganda but we are entitled to say something.

You will have an opportunity in the course of discussing the Votes. This is the standard procedure which we laid down and it will be followed.

We should have an Estimate on the way politics works. The sooner we change the system the better because this adversarial system is ridiculous.

On a point of order, I support Deputy Browne in this matter. The opening statements of the Minister and the Opposition spokesperson ran overtime and in fairness there should be equality of esteem between Members of the committee. Deputy Browne should be allowed to make a short comment.

The Deputy is then in agreement that we will conclude our deliberations and get to the Votes between now and 1 p.m.?

I also have no difficulty with Deputy Browne or any other Member making a contribution.

I am not suggesting you are bureaucratic with the headings, Chairman, but the first heading is the office of the Minister for Justice, which covers policy and general matters, so if there is some freedom on that, other Members can make their comments, which will more or less cover those areas.

I would suggest that Deputy Woods is more aware than anyone of the freedom to discuss within and outside Votes. We had this on previous occasions where, in effect, by allowing Deputies freedom we do not get any discussion on the Vote.

I am trying to be helpful.

We have an Order of Business but I will allow Deputy Browne to speak in view of what has been said.

I will only be involved in the adversarial aspect of what I was going to criticise, so I will accept your ruling, Chairman, as a Member of your group.

Members of the committee have stated they have no difficulty. Are there any questions on Vote 19?

The Minister has been in office for 18 months and apart from the robbery in Brink's Allied, she has been accused of almost every crime in the country. She can only bring in an Estimate which will pay the gardaí to do their job. No one mentioned the efficiency of the Garda but if the row about representative associations came to an end those involved might be able to concentrate on the problems.

Issues such as bail are important. The former Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn did a lot of good work and, according to Deputy O'Donoghue, anything the Minister has done was initiated by Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn. Bail was always a problem; it was a problem when the Progressive Democrats were in Government. The Minister decided to do something about it and, in time, will deal with it.

I am disappointed no reference is made to a multidisciplinary drug enforcement agency. No matter how much resources one invests in the drug problem they will not work unless a multidisciplinary approach is adopted. To use Deputy Gregory's phrase, it will be ineffective. Provision should be made in the Estimates as a matter of priority for a multidisciplinary force — the popular term is a drugs enforcement agency.

A number of the State organs need to be co-ordinated in a structured way to target this problem. It is important to do that quickly and in a considered fashion. A failure to set up the structure will mean resources will be wasted. The drugs problem is escalating into what may be the most serious threat to the security of the State.

The events in Adare were a revolting and unambiguously condemnable tragedy and display a threat to the security and organisation of democracy. The manner in which the drug godfathers are allowed to operate with apparent impunity is frightening. I commend many of the initiatives in the Estimates. However, if one discusses the matter with members of the community they will indicate we are wasting time.

We cannot overstress the importance of such an organisation which is highlighted as the complexities and difficulties of taking on these ruthless amoral individuals become more apparent. Some of them have taken up residence here given the perception that they may do so with impunity and continue their lucrative activities.

I recall many discussions of a previous crime committee on matters such as bail. Deputy Woods preceded me as a member of that committee. The issue has been serious for some time and, just like the drugs issue, has become increasingly serious. The Minister gave a clear and unambiguous commitment early in her ministry to pursue the issue of bail. However, something went wrong. When Fianna Fáil published a Bill on bail it seemed strangely coincidental that the Law Reform Commission's report was published around the same time. I also recall reading that the report had been available some months prior to its publication.

I appeal to the Minister to acknowledge publicly once again the importance of addressing the bail issue and of convincing her Government partners of its importance in the fight against crime. She should restate her commitment of early 1995.

I congratulate the Minister on her work since taking office. If there was an instant solution to any of the problems that face us I am sure the Minister would immediately introduce whatever measures were required. I understand the dilemmas involved. There is no instant or obvious solution. Deputy O'Donoghue seems to have a hang up about the Labour Party. Since I became a member of this committee I have indicated on a number of occasions that I would have no problem changing the rules on bail. The problem is identifying the changes we need and the safeguards needed when those changes are made.

When the Labour Party was in Government with Fianna Fáil there was not the same degree of debate about the bail issue. If there are problems Deputy O'Donoghue would have known of them. I never expressed any difficulties with regard to bail and I cannot remember many of my colleagues doing likewise. However, some people have fears about what would happen if the bail laws are changed.

It can be a problem that we all focus on three or four issues and consider them to be the problem. The management of the resources available to the Minister are a key factor in how we deal with problems. I would like to see changes in the practices in the way the Garda works — shifts, for example as a crime may occur when people are going off duty. We could give people time off at a different time when there is nothing happening. I will not go into detail at this point but I ask the Minister to consider the use of technology combined with a change in practices as well as the way we use personnel. We might introduce a new concept in the whole question of security, that is, a partnership between communities and the forces of law and order at all levels, including the Department of Justice. By this I mean a partnership to strike up a new arrangement. The Minister touched on it in her contribution when she spoke about setting up of a crime council.

I have suggested in my area, Dublin South-West, that we should bring together all those affected by crime to discuss ways and means to deal with it. The Department could take the initiative and the Minister has signalled that new ideas may be coming on stream. I would like to see new ideas about how to address the new problems and the new style of crime with which we are faced.

Prisons, bail laws, convictions and various other statistics are used as ways of deciding whether or not we are dealing appropriately with a problem. Effectiveness should be judged by the community's perception of crime, the way it is being dealt with and the appropriate solutions to crime. To satisfy a community in those areas is to solve the problem.

Like other members of the committee, I wish to express my sympathy to the family, friends and relations of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe and also to send my very best wishes to Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan for a speedy recovery.

We are very fortunate in that we have, by and large, a very loyal service in the Garda Síochána. I know the Garda Síochána is dealt with in the next section of the Vote but in terms of our overall policy, we are very fortunate that the membership of the Garda Síochána is of such a high standard. The question that arises is how we provide for, support, manage and organise the Garda Síochána. This is a matter of policy. I know the day to day running of the Garda Síochána is a matter for the Garda Commissioner, but the principal person concerned with it is the Minister. I will leave any other comments on the Garda Síochána until we are dealing with that section. The Minister has introduced a regional command structure and this deserves a good deal of attention. The issue of bail was referred to the Law Reform Commission, which deliberated for a long time. The commission's report is now available and it is now time to take action in that area. That is what Deputy O'Donoghue was saying.

In relation to policy generally, we have to stand back and look at what is happening in the area of law and order and crime. The need for one measure stands out above all, and I make no apology for restating it as I have done here on a number of occasions in the past. We need a special force to deal with major criminals and the drug barons. That force needs special powers. The Minister should consider a special package to deal with these criminals. Various things have been and are being done, but a small number of people can go about their criminal activities and have so far been able to escape prosecution, if not detection. They are well known.

The Minister says she is making some progress in terms of the proceeds of crime, but the question of contract killings has been touched on by Deputy Gregory. The issue behind it is the very real fear of reprisals. When talking to the Revenue Commissioners, customs officers or to any of the others involved, one has to face this reality. Nothing else would explain the lack of action and coordination in certain areas. The presence of that fear calls for a special approach and that is why this committee has been saying repeatedly in recent times that there is a need for a force with special powers and there is a need for special accountants.

The Revenue Commissioners must find out where and how the money is being laundered and stop it. We must have, as Deputy Liam Fitzgerald said, a multi-disciplinary approach when we tackle these people. No single group can tackle them, there has to be an overall approach backed up with special powers. The House will back the Minister if she looks for special powers to deal with these people. Not many people are involved and the problem requires attention now. It is just one facet of the law and order problem which the Department of Justice must tackle but it is a key facet and as long as these criminals can get away with their activity, the country will remain awash with drugs. This is one of the most important actions we must take at this stage. It is not solely a matter for the Minister for Justice; it is a matter for coordination but the Minister for Justice is a key person.

On subhead A7, I am a little surprised that the consultancy figure is so small. I know the Minister expects people on committees to say the opposite.

Deputy Callely is constantly surprised that it is too high.

I think big about these things. The Minister expects people to say it has gone up by 29 per cent. It is a percentage of £31,000 and the total is £40,000. This is where it has to be linked in with policy. Does the thinking on policy really involve the views of outsiders? Deputy Fitzgerald mentioned the multi-disciplinary approach. If it is not linked, perhaps the Minister should think again about who, outside the specific people in the Department of Justice, can bring particular experience and expertise to bear on the problems. With such a vast challenge, perhaps the Minister and the Department should look around a little more for ideas, support and inputs from elsewhere.

Subhead A9 deals with the forensic science laboratory. It was alleged in the media recently that there was a shortage of scientific equipment which reduced the capacity to follow up a murder case. Samples allegedly had to be sent to England and Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Minister would speak about this. I can see that there is an increase, but with the advancements in science which have taken place, particularly since the early 1960s, it is unbelievable that they do not seem to have the equipment they require. I do not know whether that is the case, but those are the statements that have been made publicly. If necessary we should ensure they have the equipment they need.

Subhead A10 refers to the EU Presidency. Is there any appropriation-in-aid related to the Minister's activities in the provision of security? In many other areas there are EU refunds to offset appropriations. Is there any offset in this area?

Is this related my personal security?

I am referring to the EU Presidency and subhead A10.

Why has there been an increase of 215 per cent in Commissions and Special Inquiries? It is an extraordinary increase. Perhaps the Minister would also explain why the increase for the office of the Minister for Justice is the single largest percentage increase in the Estimate.

How much is outstanding, under subhead D1, in demands for compensation for criminally inflicted personal injuries? Subhead A34 refers to uniforms. Are the uniforms manufactured in Ireland or where are they bought?

Subhead A9 relates to the forensic science laboratory. There was comment recently about the long delays occurring there. It was said the practice of sending drugs for identification was holding up work on crime. There is a substantial increase in the Estimate for the laboratory. Is this to deal with the problem of delays and does it provide whatever is required, whether it is equipment or additional staff, to eliminate the problem?

Deputy Walsh raised matters relating to the Garda Síochána. Perhaps the Minister would delay replying to those until we deal with Vote 20.

There were a number of interventions but only a few questions specifically about the Vote. There was a comment to the effect that the only time Deputies get a chance to comment on crime in general is in the course of occasional Question Times. That is not the case. Indeed, my colleagues often ask me if I am ever out of the Dáil.

In May and June I was in the Dáil on seven or eight occasions for debates on the GRA Bill, the criminal law Bill and regulations under section 44 of the Criminal Justice Act,1994. In addition there were debates on Private Members' Motions on justice. I have also attended the Seanad on a number of occasions. There have been ample opportunities for Deputies to comment. I could not be in the Dáil last night because I was returning from Northern Ireland but I have sat through many debates on justice and listened to the points made by Deputies.

On average, the Department of Justice gets three Adjournment debates per week. No other Department gets the same number of debates. It is not my job but the Ceann Comhairle's to decide whether debates are taken. Lest there be a belief that there is reluctance on my part to participate in debates, of all the Ministers of this Government I have probably been most often in the Dáil.

The debate on the death of a garda is most important.

I was not in the Dáil when it was raised. That appalling murder and injury is under investigation by the Garda and, other than listen to Deputies making statements in the Dáil, I can say nothing while that inquiry is progressing about the nature of the crime and who did it.

The existence of IRA operatives is well known to the Department.

The Dáil is not a court of inquiry. We must allow the Garda Síochána — who have already arrested two people who are currently in custody — to continue their investigation. That a Deputy demands a debate makes a good headline but there will be an opportunity to debate the matter when the crime has been investigated and the perpetrators are in custody.

It is not an ordinary crime.

I realise that everybody wishes to comment on the matter. We have had an opportunity to do so today. I am not the arbiter of whether Private Notice Questions are taken; the arbiter is the Ceann Comhairle. The Department took an Adjournment debate last night although I could not be there because I was caught up in other serious work. That does not in any way diminish the horror of what happened.

I accept the Minister's reply.

I am working at trying to be in two places at the one time but I have not succeeded yet.

Deputy Woods referred to consultancy services. Throughout the Department of Justice consultants are brought in to look at various elements of policy. We have, for example, a technical group looking at the air support unit. I am not sure, in the context of the consultancy mentioned in Vote 19, if the Deputy is saying I should bring in more personal consultants. The way to deal with the matter is through the crime council. That will bring together the groupings of people in society who have an input to make and who should make that input so we will understand the difficulties. We sometimes think we know the answer but it is clear to those who have been in Government, that it is one thing to say one would like to do something but it is another to give it a form whereby it can be delivered. Deputy Woods, having served as a senior Minister, will know there is a difference between saying what one wants to do and delivering it.

Forensic science was raised by a number of Deputies. I have increased the budget this year because I, too, was concerned about the huge increase of work for the laboratory. We are currently in the process of finalising the hiring of four additional scientifically trained people. There are 40 staff in the forensic science laboratory and they have been provided with the necessary specialised equipment for DNA testing at a cost of £180,000. Two molecular biologists have been recruited and trained in specific techniques of DNA profiling in Ireland and the UK. We are currently purchasing a sequencer at a cost of £115,000 to enable the laboratory to move to the faster PCR method of DNA profiling.

Prior to January 1994 — a year before Deputy O'Donoghue's party went out of office during which time it did not do what I have done — it was necessary to forward all samples for DNA testing to a commercial company in the UK. Occasionally samples are sent to the British forensic science service, if decomposing human tissue is involved, for analysis using the newer method. We are trying to manage with the resources we have. Profiling and testing of human tissue that can decompose is not something that can be put off for two weeks or so, it must be done immediately. In 1995 there were a total of 43 DNA cases in which 430 samples were analysed, most with a successful conclusion. One related to a murder trial where a major challenge was mounted on the basis of the introduction of DNA. In one murder case 340 samples were sent for analysis.

If they need to be tested instantly, the management of the forensic science laboratory must send them to be tested as they are often living organisms and tissues. Analyses were carried out on the first 40 received which seemed to have come from the prime suspects. The sheer volume of the 340 cases could not be managed immediately and some were sent to Belfast. We got a faster, but I am not sure as thorough, analysis. They were carried out at a cost of £1,600 per 50 cases — a total of £9,600. Whereas we are upgrading the available equipment and manpower in the forensic science laboratory, there will be an increase in volume from time to time. The resources would not be well spent in constantly catering for that kind of volume by having a spare machine on stand-by when it may be needed only once a year. It is more practical to have the basic equipment available and move from there.

There is a question mark over the number of samples that might be taken at any time and maybe it is an area that could be cut down. In a sexual crime, a lot of sampling is needed to make sure the crime is pinned on the correct person. It is a matter under constant view. With my scientific background, I recognise the important role of the forensic science laboratory. That is why we have provided for an increase in the budget.

In relation to Deputy Woods's question, under item A10, there is no offset that I can make to the EU. The budget has been trimmed as tightly as possible to take account of whatever we cannot be charged for. We have already taken into account anything paid for by the EU. It should be noted that one in three documents now emanating from the EU relate to Justice and Home Affairs. In two years, it has become one of the major areas of work, especially since the Maastricht Treaty. I do not know whether this has been recognised yet by all Departments. One of my proposals for the Irish Presidency is to try to cut down on some of the existing structures which involve thousands of travel hours, hundreds of extra personnel and paper coming out of every building and office.

To what effect?

That is the question. Everybody needs a copy of everything. We do it here a lot ourselves. Everybody gets copies of documents but when they arrive in this room they expect them to be here as well. That happens on a far grander scale at European level. It is something that takes an enormous amount of resources to do.

In relation to a backlog in criminal injuries, the backlog of accepted awards have been paid up to date. There is a backlog where offers have been made but not accepted. The backlog of accepted awards awaiting payment has been eliminated since the end of 1994. There was a Supplementary Estimate on 30 November 1994 during those heady days of the collapse of the Government, which brought the 1994 total to £4 million. The Supplementary Estimate allowed the tribunal to clear the backlog. From May 1996, the backlog to be determined falls into three categories — the non-fatal claims in respect of injuries sustained before April 1986, the non-fatal claims in respect of injuries sustained after April 1986, and the claims in respect of fatal injuries. The accepted claims have been cleared. There have been great inroads made in the past year into the backlog of pre-April 1986 claims. It is not evident if one looks at some of the figures but a huge difference has been made. There were 156 new claims received in the tribunal between May 1995 and May 1996.

In relation to item B — commissions and special inquiries — Deputy O'Donoghue wondered why there has been a huge increase. The Department of Justice is picking up the tab for the Mitchell Decommissioning Report and the increase is essentially taking that into account. The cost is approximately £230,000, which is a once-off payment. With regard to comparisons between figures — it will be relevant in other Estimates — Deputy O'Donoghue picked out a figure in 1986 and compared it with present figures. Occasionally there are years in the Department of Justice and other Departments where specific costs fall to be paid in a year, which causes a blip in the graphs. In 1986 there were three such blips which, for the purposes of the Opposition, is a good year to pick because it looks as if there is a decrease in certain areas. In that year we had the final major costs with regard to Wheatfield Prison and the Stardust Tribunal costs. The third commission that fell to be paid in that year was the Kerry Babies Tribunal, which also caused a blip in the graph.

Under A34, the uniforms are for the Garda service officers in the Department of Justice. They are put to tender and made in Ireland. I do not have the name of the company. They are designer uniforms with a gold heart.

May I briefly correct the Minister? I was speaking about the percentage as an estimate of GNP; 1.7 per cent was the Estimate forecast to be spent by the Department of Justice in 1996 as a percentage of GNP. The Minister said that 1986 caused a blip on the graph. I remind the Minister that as a percentage of GNP in 1992, the Estimate spent by the Department of Justice, or allocated to it, was 1.8 per cent. It was 1.85 per cent in 1993 and 1.84 per cent in 1994. Under the Minister's tenure in 1995 and 1996 it dropped to 1.76 per cent and 1.7 per cent consecutively.

I think Deputy O'Donoghue said there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I will give the Deputy my measure of the Vote here; he has his particular chart. In 1995, the net Justice allocation from the total moneys voted by Dáil Éireann stood at £318.217 million, representing 5.18 per cent of the total net supply services. This year the corresponding figure is 5.7 per cent of the total. I know the point the Deputy is trying to make, that the increase is not as much as he thinks it warrants. In the period in question the overall Justice Estimate has increased over 1.9 times. The total net supply services has increased 1.75 times. The figures I have here show the Department of Justice is going beyond the increases. I will not spend the whole day debating with the Deputy. I am not a statistician or an economist and by no stretch of the imagination is Deputy O'Donoghue either.

Maybe the Deputy is a realist, but almost every single Vote in my Department has been increased. I am doing that for which Deputy O'Donnell correctly asked; I am managing the available resources. It is important to target increases and that is why I picked out some areas, one of which is forensic science, in which I have endeavoured to make increases available. We will come to some of those when we deal with the prison Vote. There was a question about estimating the amount of overtime which I will also deal with in the context of the prison Vote.

We will move on to Vote 20.

The importance of recruitment was referred to. Last night in the Dáil I mentioned that the points system will eventually give us a completely different medical profession from that to which we are accustomed. Does the Minister have any view on whether the higher educational standard of Garda recruits compares with the good, strong, rural chaps who joined the Garda in the past and were prepared to walk the streets and so on?

Deputy O'Donoghue said recruits need to be sophisticated to deal with modern crime and so on. That is one element. However, the old complaint is that we do not have gardaí on the beat. Most people in towns and villages would like to see gardaí on the beat. Have the younger members in the past few years come to the stage now where they are experts in dealing with computers and so on and enjoy that far more than meeting and getting to know the ordinary people? Will the Minister assure me these people will not be in offices doing all sorts of fanciful things with expert modern equipment.

The increase in salaries, wages and allowances for the Garda Síochána is approximately 3 per cent, which is equivalent to the anticipated inflation rate. If the Minister is to have a new and radical recruitment drive, it would include gardaí who would go on the beat, as Deputy Browne described it. I merely pointed out there was also a need to recruit people with expertise in given areas. That said, unless there is a substantial increase in the amount of the 1997 Estimate for salaries, wages and allowances for the Garda Síochána it follows as a matter of logic that the Minister will continue to preside over a situation whereby natural wastage in the Force will outstrip recruitment and that is not desirable.

There is a decrease of 9 per cent in the transport provision according to these Estimates. This comes at a time when at various Garda conferences throughout the country great emphasis has been placed on the fact that many rural Garda stations do not even have the basic essential commodity of a patrol car. They have to send to the district headquarters to obtain a car. This is entirely undesirable in an age of mobility. The Garda Síochána need to have as much mobility as the criminals with whom they are dealing.

Will the Minister comment on the number of gardaí in the Tallaght area? It is a large part of the city suffering a substantial amount of crime at present. In reaction to that crime we have seen people take to the streets. I would not call them vigilante groups, but a concerned community moving on to the streets with the assistance of the gardaí and taking control of their estates.

Throughout west Tallaght the people have built a series of observation posts and intelligence gathering operations and in conjunction with the gardaí have begun to patrol west Tallaght at night. This is a new phenomenon whereby a partnership has been established between the local communities and the gardaí to deal with the problem of severe crime in those areas. They have worked together effectively thus far, except for one or two small incidents. They are still working very effectively.

At night in Tallaght people patrol with gardaí. The streets and the estates in west Tallaght are now under the control of the gardaí and the residents. Many of the people who have been abusing the communities, particularly in the drug related areas, have had to move out. Unfortunately, serious problems will arise in the form of threats and intimidation because of this action and there is a need for an immediate examination of the Tallaght area from the point of view of policing. I ask the Minister to look at that in a particular way.

I heard recently that some of the people who are prominent in leading the communities to reclaim estates from drugs dealers, drugs barons and drugs abusers are being noted by certain people who had to move out. In future when not as much attention is being paid to the problem their time will come for punishment which will be decided by these groups of people. I would like the Minister to give as much support as possible to the Tallaght gardaí in dealing with the current situation.

Dublin South-West has the largest portion of the problem with regard to the settlement of travellers. It is a major problem in one area and the figures support that. The friction between the communities and the travellers is exacerbated to the point where there are dangers which need to be addressed. The Tallaght gardaí are also faced with that problem and I ask the Minister to take it into account. There are situations which are close to flash point and if the gardaí in Tallaght do not have sufficient resources a serious incident will occur. I am not exaggerating; this can be checked. Most of the resettlement problem is in the Dublin South-West area. The large numbers of travellers congregating and coming into the area are forcing the situation to breaking point.

The legislation from the Minister's colleague, Deputy Deenihan, on the control of horses is very welcome. Most of the stray horses are in the west Dublin area, particularly Dublin South-West. When the legislation is passed a large proportion of the time of the gardaí in Tallaght will be spent dealing with the new legislation and its enforcement. That is a third burden on the already stretched resources of the Tallaght gardaí.

The population of Tallaght is 86,000. A large proportion of west Tallaght is comprised of corporation housing estates where there is huge unemployment. There are a great number of problems in those areas. A huge business community has also been developed in Tallaght. It includes industrial, commercial and retail businesses. Policing the business area places additional stress on the Tallaght gardaí. Extra resources are also need in this area. I am told at present £1 million is being spent on immediate security to protect these premises. I recognise that we cannot solve all the problems by simply putting gardaí on the street, but I have made a strong case for extra gardaí and extra resources for the gardaí in the Tallaght area.

The figures for maintenance and running costs for transport are down this year as is the figure for purchase of vehicles. Is the Minister aware of an ongoing problem with regard to the availability of Garda cars to come to the scene of crimes in local communities? It is my experience, and I am sure it is the experience of Deputy Woods, that this problem is not peculiar to rural areas. It is relevant in urban communities and certainly in our part of Dublin city, it is an ongoing problem.

Is the Minister aware that if gardaí are asked why they were not able to attend the scene of the crime until two or three hours later, invariably the answer is that they did not have a car. If gardaí make representations to the Department that they have logged many complaints about delays in getting to the scene of crimes and that they are stretched for cars, is the Department able to do anything about it?

I reiterate the sentiments expressed by Deputy Walsh in relation to the resources needed by the Garda Síochána to control horses. The problem in his area may be bad, but I would contend that in our area it is as bad, if not worse. Three weeks ago on a Sunday morning I was called to a certain community — I will not name it because that would be unfair — where 13 horses were left overnight in a small open space. The gardaí do not have the resources to deal with such a situation. Even with the implementation of the Control of Horses Bill, how will the Garda Síochána manage with the present level resources? On that occasion I spent three quarters of an hour speaking to gardaí in the local station about the problem and they were extremely helpful. They went out of their way to deal with the problem before I arrived, but the resources were not there. Additional resources must be provided to try to address these serious issues.

What other Deputies have said has also been my experience. The gardaí are very helpful, but one finds that the resources are not there. That is where the problem keeps arising. A pilot study was conducted in two large blocks of flats, which have been highlighted by the media, where there was an intensive policing effort to deal with the drug problem. This meant having a sufficient number of gardaí to keep watch at key times. It was highly successful and it was marvellous to see the change in people's lives. They were no longer afraid and were able to walk around without worrying about being attacked or molested. However, there was a demand for gardaí elsewhere and they were moved on. The study was conducted over a six-month period, but after the gardaí moved on the scene changed immediately and the criminals were back as if nothing had happened. One can imagine the frustration of the community and the difficulties for public representatives who had said the gardaí would handle the situation.

This brings us to the Garda Síochána regionalisation plan. What will be the delegated authority and what will be the responsibility? Will there be co-ordination between the new authorities at regional level? How will this be operated? Will there be real regional management with regional authority? If successful, will they be interfered with? We know that as a result of the BSE crisis, 165 gardaí have been moved from Dublin and probably elsewhere to deal with this matter. I would have thought that between the customs, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry phytosanitary control people, who are responsible for the control of diseases and the movement of diseases across Borders, the Army and some gardaí that it might have been possible to leave gardaí where they are badly needed in areas in Dublin with high crime levels and drug problems. That is the type of thing which impacts on the community.

While I have great sympathy with the situation elsewhere, there is no comparison between that and what is happening in disadvantaged areas of Dublin. Crime levels throughout the country are catching up with those in Dublin, but it is not the same.

There is no crime in Kerry.

Passing through a town there a couple of years ago I heard on the radio about a handbag which had been stolen. The thief was described down to his toenails. He had no chance of getting away——

Provided he did not take off his shoes.

——because everything about him was described on the local radio programme. That is one of the advantages there.

I am in favour of dealing with crime in rural areas and we should be careful not to move gardaí from such areas because they are preventing crime. People do not see that crime is being prevented because nothing happens and they may say we do not need gardaí there. Rural areas need support, but drug and crime ridden city areas also need support and gardaí should not be moved, especially when they are doing a good job. I know the deployment of staff is a matter for the Garda Commissioner who can be left with no option other than to move people. Deputy Liam Fitzgerald and I represent the same constituency and Garda transport is a problem there.

We have had a lot of problems in relation to the control of horses. Deputy Kenneally brought forward a Bill to try to force the Government into action. He was successful and the Government brought forward a Bill shortly after that.

The Deputy knows better.

It worked, but it was really only to ensure the Minister and the Government took action.

As regards Deputy Browne's question, recruitment to the Garda involves an independent structure to which any young man or woman can apply. We should be careful not to say that we must have a certain percentage from outside Dublin. All Irish citizens can apply.

We have sturdy men in Dublin also.

I am pleased to hear about gardaí from Dublin. There was a time when the entire force seemed to be from outside Dublin, principally from Cork and Kerry. Gardaí go through a medical to establish fitness and I am aware of a height restriction. I am not aware if there is a bulk or measurement restriction. The Deputy implied that we should have big men and women, but policing today involves a rounded person, as I am sure it did in the past. Gardaí have not all become computer experts.

The Minister has completely misinterpreted what I said. I was trying to make the point ——

The Deputy hoped not all gardaí were into computers and had not all become sophisticated.

——that at one stage the standard required was sixth class in primary school.

It is higher now.

People with degrees join the Garda Síochána. Do they do the same work?

They go out on the beat also.

If we are recruiting graduates, will they know anybody on their beat in 20 years' time?

I will bear that in mind.

The Minister was making a mockery of my serious contribution.

I was trying to say that I cannot decide on the rural——

I have some intelligence.

I am constantly asked to lower the height entry level of male entrants to the Garda to that of their female colleagues. The 1994 competition for entry to the Garda will run until 1997 and another recruitment campaign will take place after that. I will examine the matter. We must ensure there are approximately 9,000 gardaí in the force at any one time who will not move up the ranks. There are people who are prepared to mainly work on the beat. The same argument will also be made about doctors, lawyers etc. because otherwise the standards could get so high that only people with degrees etc. would qualify. Deputy Browne made a valid point and I was not trying to diminish it. I was afraid Deputy Browne thought I should pick the gardaí myself by measuring their biceps or chests.

The Minister should give me some credit; I have some intelligence.

The 3 per cent increase mentioned by Deputy O'Donoghue allows for the wage increases in keeping with inflation and the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. Although the Garda do not currently have a direct say in any pay agreements, I am trying to find a method to give it a closer input in this regard.

When the new two year training system was introduced in 1989, there was a change in the retirement age from 57 years of age to 60 years of age so there would not be a sudden drop in the numbers of gardaí due to the longer training. Because of the number of gardaí who stayed on, the bulk of those retirements came on stream in 1995, which is why the current recruitment scheme matched the natural wastage levels. However, there are clear signs that this blip is now decreasing and the level of natural wastage will be less than the numbers being recruited. That was the down side effect of increasing the retirement age limit.

Last year I had an opportunity to allocate an additional £1.3 million to upgrade and buy more Garda cars. Technically, this year's Estimates will allow me to continue to purchase transport. The number of vehicles purchased in 1995 was 393 and will be approximately 340 in 1996 — I had already purchased extra cars at the end of 1995. The total number of vehicles in the fleet is 1,527. I accept what Deputies said. When one reports a crime and asks for a squad car to check it out, it will be sent if available but it cannot be sent if it is being used to investigate another crime. We cannot have a fleet of Garda cars that is constantly on stand-by for every crime reported. It is up to the Garda to deploy its resources. With the more improved communication between Garda cars and the new voice control system I mentioned earlier, access to these cars will improve. However, we are increasing our expenditure to buy more cars this year.

We will hold the EU Presidency for the next six months and I must also make provision for Garda vehicles to be made available during that period. I am pointing that out to make Deputies aware of it when we take over this Presidency.

Deputy Walsh made a number of valid points about the situation in Tallaght, its demography and the growing level of certain types of difficulties there in regard to travellers' wandering horses. I will pass on the Deputy's comments about the deployment and use of gardaí with community efforts to the Garda Commissioner.

Neighbourhood watch schemes are vibrant in Dublin and that is the best method whereby the Garda work with the community. I also recently received a proposal from a community in a certain part of Tallaght — Deputy Walsh might have that area in mind but he did not mention its name so I will not either — who are working with the Garda with regard to certain houses occupied by drug dealers who are causing problems. They have asked for resources to assist them in their efforts. We are examining their ideas but the neighbourhood watch scheme is the best structure available. I have asked the neighbourhood watch managers to let me know, in the same way as do those involved with the community alert scheme, where they think the scheme could be developed further to increase current co-operation between them and the Garda.

However, I do not condone people taking the law into their own hands. While I am human and can understand some of the frustrations felt, the only people who should deal with criminals are the Garda. I often hear people ask why the Garda is not acting like these groups. These people are breaking the law. Whether we like it or not, we cannot take the law into our own hands to shoot, maim or injure somebody, irrespective of the awfulness of his crime. It is up to the Garda to work with the community to identify those people. When the Garda get that information, it moves on it. At times it is hard to get specific information because people are often too frightened to point out the individuals involved. They expect the Garda to arrest those people without getting the relevant information. However, that matter is a wider debate.

The new Government Bill will change the method in which wandering horses are dealt with. Members of the Garda are not modern day Clint Eastwoods gathering up horses. The new Bill will bring some control and regulation to the issue of people keeping and maintaining horses in urban areas. It has become a bigger problem in recent years. It started in 1979 when I came into public life. I represented an area of Deputy Woods's and Deputy Fitzgerald's constituency on this issue and this was the first time I ever saw horses hooves among the rosebeds of peoples' gardens.

Deputy Woods raised the issue of good Garda procedures. When methods used in some divisions and districts work well, there is an onus on the Garda to share those experiences and that is where the regionalisation plan will be most effective. Individual gardaí have told me that since regionalisation was introduced, they can see the value of putting in extra resources to tackle a crime and find the criminals who carried it out. It has proved especially effective with the BSE situation along the Border.

On 30 March a total of 137 gardaí were temporarily transferred to the Border. They worked a 12 hour tour of duty without rest days and that lasted for approximately six weeks until 19 May. At that stage, few — approximately 13 — members were taken from the DMA. To continue that process, it was necessary to reduce the 12 hours level to eight hours. One could not ask people to continue that heavy level of duty without rest days.

I told the Commissioner I wanted as few gardaí as possible taken from Dublin. With regard to the breakdown of crime vis-�-vis the urban and rural areas, the DMA represents about 57 per cent of total crime. Crime in other cities is 14 per cent and rural crime represents about 29 per cent. It was necessary, when the Garda examined the movement of gardaí to the Border, not only to take these percentages into account but also the percentage of people working in these areas. In districts with 200, 300 or 400 gardaí it is easier to make arrangements for overtime for the four of five gardaí that might be gone from that area at a particular time. The Garda Commissioner has accepted that the percentages should be as low as possible in Dublin with its high level of crime. If five or six gardaí are removed from a station it is probably one per roster or two at most, and not all at the one time. There will still be 30 or 35 gardaí on that roster. The removal level of gardaí from Dublin is not as serious, perhaps, as it might be if we had removed a garda from a rural area. If the BSE crisis ends, those gardaí will go back to their stations.

Members will be aware that the Minister has to leave. We still have to deal with Votes 21, 22, 23 and 24. Will we take them as read, take brief comments or will we adjourn?

I recognise that the Minister has other commitments and that she has to come back to this committee with the drug trafficking Bill and other legislation in the coming weeks. I have said what I wanted to say in relation to the other Votes and rather than take up the time of the committee, I would be prepared to take them as read.

We have concluded our consideration of the Estimates for the Public Service for the year. It only remains for me to report that consideration to the Dáil, which I will do at the earliest opportunity. I thank the Minister and her officials for coming here and Members for their contributions.

Expression of Sympathy.

I would like to convey the sympathy and the condolences of this committee to the widow and family of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe who was gunned down in the most appalling and cold-blooded circumstances last Friday. There is a duty upon us as legislators to ensure public safety and to ensure that the killers of Garda McCabe are rooted out of society. I ask the Minister and committee members to join with me in observing a minutes silence to the memory of Garda McCabe.

Members rose in their places.

The Select Committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m.

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