Are the minutes of the last meeting agreed? Agreed.
The timetable for the day has been included with the paper before members. This is intended to assist in discharging our business in a businesslike fashion. It is not my intention to be rigid. I will adopt a flexible approach providing people do not abuse the flexibility.
Is mór an phribhléid dom na Meastacháin seo
Vóta 42—£43.27 milliún don Roinn Ealaíon, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta,
Vóta 43—£1.159 milliún don Ghailearaí Náisiúnta agus
Vóta 44—£11.5 milliún don Chomhairle Ealaíon
don bhliain dar críoch 31 Nollaig 1993 a chur os comhair an Choiste seo.
As the first Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht in the history of the State to present Estimates in this House for a specific Government Department with responsibility for these areas, this is an historic occasion. It is historic also insofar as these Estimates are being debated for the first time with this new Committee on Social Affairs and I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Chairman of the Committee, Deputy Séamus Pattison, and its Convenor, Deputy Michael Bell, on their appointments. I wish every success and fruitful work to the members of the Committee. I will be anxious to facilitate in every way possible the work of the Committee in terms of the provision of such information as will be of assistance to the Committee.
Members of the Committee will have already received a briefing note from my Department setting out details of our Estimates and some background information. As Deputies will see from the background information, we have been moved less by minimalist considerations as by an anxiety to give as much contextual information as we feel is of value to the members of the Committee. I do not propose, therefore to dwell at this stage on the minutiae of the figures involved, but I would like to give Deputies a brief overview of the work of my Department and of various policy measures which have been taken or are in train at the present time. Before I do so I would place on record my gratitude to the members of my Department who have been under great pressure, because it is a new Department and who have been enthusiastic in providing the additional information to which I have referred. References to different areas of the votes will be in the order laid down in the 1993 Revised Estimates for the public service.
Members will be aware that my responsibilities embrace five major areas — namely, arts, culture, the Gaeltacht and the Irish language, broadcasting and heritage — and I am pleased to inform the committee that all Dublin based divisions of my Department have very recently relocated at "Dún Aimhirgin" in Mespil Road. Those members who like me have an interest in myth and literature will know that Aimhirgin was indeed the first lawmaker and poet in the mythic tradition of the celts.
One could have a summer school on that.
With regard to the cultural institutions, the increase achieved in the funding for the national cultural institutions is a measure of this Government's commitment to their development and improvement. I propose to assign a high priority to the funding requirements of the institutions so that they can play their rightful role in the cultural life of the nation. Indeed, I have been asked questions in the past by somebody whom I forgot to mention, the second convenor of the meeting, Deputy Mary Flaherty. I congratulate her and wish her well in her work.
I will give some of the general detail of this. I am happy that we have been able to increase current funding to institutions by 7.9 per cent and capital funding by 17 per cent this year. The latter includes an allocation of over £0.5 million to the National Museum for the completion of a major overhaul of its heating system and for essential work on its roofs. Deputies will appreciate the importance of improvements such as this to an institution such as the National Museum.
With regard to the Irish Film Board, Deputies may be wondering why there is no reference in Vote 42 to the Irish Film Board, notwithstanding the fact that I announced its re-establishment on 30 March last. The answer to this is that the Estimates for 1993 did not anticipate this new policy initiative and that it will be necessary to make separate arrangements for the funding of the film board this year. I am at present investigating the possibilities of sourcing such funding from other agencies, but it may be necessary for me to come back to the Dáil soon for approval of a Supplementary Estimate.
I am sure Deputies will be interested in what has been achieved in the important film and audio-visual industry. The Irish Film Board has been re-established with a dedicated film production fund which is essential for seed financing for sound Irish projects. That is important. I will be delighted to help to develop further areas of the film industry when we deal with legislation in this area.
Policy determination for the services provided by the Office of Public Works in the heritage area is now a function of my Department. This covers policy in regard to national monuments, the care of our wildlife, various parks, and inland waterways. The Office of Public Works continues to be responsible for the day to day operation of these services but in accordance with the general principles, priorities and implementation targets set down by my Department.
It has been agreed that 13 staff from the Office of Public Works will transfer to my Department to establish a unit for the formulation of policy. In the first instance all the legislation relating to national monuments, wildlife parks, waterways, etc., will need to be examined and the major weaknesses identified so that these may be dealt with in amending legislation.
A review will also be made of the main areas where either existing policy needs to be redefined or where new policy needs to be formed. Possible priority areas include the position of interpretation in the field of conservation of both the natural and the built heritage, problems associated with providing access to the heritage and possible conflicts in this area, and the reconciliation as far as possible of the provisions of the planning Acts with those of the national monuments Acts to provide the maximum protection for our common heritage.
One of the first things I did following my appointment as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht was to meet the National Heritage Council. I believe that an organisation like the council with a policy role in relation to the physical heritage, both natural and built, is essential. I am giving priority to putting the council on a statutory footing.
Maidir le deontais tithíochta, críochnaíodh níos mó ná 100 teach nua sa Ghaeltacht anuraidh. Chomh maith leis sin, críochnaíodh beagnach 650 cás eile a bhain le hoibreacha feabhsúcháin, sláintíochta agus méadaithe. Bhí an-áthas orm gur ceadaíodh méadú le déanaí ar an deontas atá le fáil chun teach nua a thógáil sa Ghaeltacht — go £4,000 ar an mhórthír agus go £6,000 i gcás na n-oileán Gaeltachta amach ón gcósta.
Tá obair nach beag déanta le tamall anuas i dtaca leis an réiteach le haghaidh an dara sraith de na Cistí Structúrtha agus Comhthátaithe ó 1994 ar aghaidh. Tááthas orm a chur in iúl go bhfuil an chosúlacht ann go mbeidh rath ar an obair sin agus go mbeidh buntáistí suntasacha le gnóthú ag an nGaeltacht ó thaobh fhorbairt an bhunstruchtúir de.
Ó thaobh cúrsaí muiroibreacha de, ba mhaith liom tagairt sonrach a dhéanamh don iniúchadh a bhí ar siúl le tamall maith maidir leis na riachtanais don tseirbhís farantóireachta go hInis Meáin agus Inis Oírr. Cúis sásaimh ar leith domsa go bhfuil soláthar £1.5 mhilliún á chur ar fáil agam i Meastacháin na bliana seo chun an chéad chéim den obair a dhéanamh. Tá sé beartaithe go ndéanfar Céim II den togra an bhliain seo chugainn agus go gcuirfear bailchríoch ar an obair go léir i 1995.
Faoi Scéimeanna Cultúrtha agus Sóisialta mo Roinne-se, cuirtear cúnamh nach beag ar fáil gach bliain do thréimhseacháin áitiúla agus don nuachtán seachtainiúil anois.
Maidir le scéim na bhfoghlaimeoirí Gaeilge, d'íoc mo Roinnse cúnamh i 1992 i leith breis agus 21,400 foghlaimeoir Gaeilge a chuaigh go dtú an Ghaeltacht chun feabhas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge — an líon is mó ariamh.
Tá athbhreithniú iomlán déanta ag mo Roinnse ar an Scéim Dheontas Labhairt na Gaeilge agus beidh scéim nua á tabhairt isteach ón scoilbhliain 1993-94 ar aghaidh.
Ba bhliain dheacair í 1992 maidir le fostaíocht a chruthú agus a chaomhnú sa Ghaeltacht. Cruthaíodh 975 phost nua lánaimseartha i 1992 i dtionscail a fuair cúnamh óÚdarás na Gaeltachta agus, tar éis caillteanais de 920 post a chur san áireamh, bhí méadú glan de 55 phost sa bhliain sin. Ag deireadh 1992 bhí 5,652 dhuine fostaithe go lánaimseartha i dtionscail sa Ghaeltacht faoi scáth an Údaráis agus, chomh maith leis sin, meastar go gcruthófar 1,440 post nua i dtograí ar cheadaigh an tÚdarás cúnamh ina leith anuraidh.
Ta fostaíocht shéasúrach an-tábhachtach don Ghaeltacht agus tháinig méadú de 320 ar líon na bpost sin le linn 1992 go dtí 2,580 duine. Chomh maith leis an bhfostaíocht shéasúrach sin, bhí 77 Scéim Fhostaíochta Shóisialta a raibh luach £1.4 mhilliún ag gabháil leo agus 635 dhuine fostaithe orthu á riaradh ag an Údarás i 1992 i gcomhar le FÁS agus coistíáitiúla Gaeltachta.
Cuireann mo Roinnse cúnamh ar fáil trí Chiste na Gaeilge do Bhord na Gaeilge, do Bhord na Leabhar Gaeilge agus do na heagrais dheonacha Ghaeilge agus is ó fháltais an Chrannchuir Náisiúnta a thagann an t-airgead don chiste.
Tá an-áthas orm gur éirigh liom méadú 20 faoin gcéad a dhéanamh ar an gcúnamh Stáit do Bhord na Gaeilge i mbliana. Tá obair fhiúntach ar mhaithe leis an nGaeilge déanta ag an mbord ó bunaíodh é ar bhonn reachtúil sa bhliain 1978. Ar ndóigh, tá béim ar leith ar chur chun cinn na Gaeilge sa Chlár le haghaidh Rialtas Chomhpháirtíochta agus aithnítear ann gur gá go mbeidh an Stát chun tosaigh in úsáid na Gaeilge a mhéadú.
Cuirtear cúnamh nach beag ar fáil gach bliain do na heagrais deonacha atá ag caitheamh a gcuid dúthrachta go deonach ar son na teanga agus tá an soláthar dóibh méadaithe agam de 12 faoin gcéad don bhliain reacha go dtí£1.96 mhilliún.
Níor mhaith liom an deis seo a ligint tharam gan tréaslú le Conradh na Gaeilge a bhfuil céad bliain slánaithe aige. Tuigimid go léir an dea-obair atá déanta acu thar na mblianta agus tááthas orm go raibh ar mo chumas an £75,000 a d'iarr siad ó mo Roinnse a cheadú dóibh mar chabhair speisialta chun an clár cuimsitheach d'imeachtaí atáá reachtáil acu don chomóradh a chur i bhfeidhm.
Deputies will be aware that the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-1997 sets out a number of initiatives in the broadcasting area and I have already begun to deliver on these through the introduction of the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1993, which I mentioned earlier. The Bill will remove the 1990 cap on RTE advertising revenue and minutage and will require RTE to spend a specific amount each year on programmes commissioned from the independent production sector.
I have long believed that broadcasting structures in this country are overdue for a comprehensive overhaul and the Bill can be regarded as but a first step in the process. It is designed to address the serious and deteriorating position brought about by the cap in RTE in the broadcast advertising market and in the independent production sector. It is seeking to protect and create jobs in this area. When enacted, the Bill will enable the enormous reservoir of creativity in RTE in the independent production sector to be released. That we have an abundance of such talent cannot be denied. It is obvious from RTE's recent technological and creative success in staging the Eurovision Song Contest in Millstreet and Irish film makers' successes.
Beidh mé ag brú ar aghaidh gan mhoill le bunú Theilifís na Gaeilge. Bhí gealltanas tugtha sa Chlár le haghaidh Rialtais Chomhphairtíochta go mbunófaí seirbhís dá leithéid mar thriú cainéal le huaireanta teoranta craolacháin, a bheadh lonnaithe i nGaeltacht Chonamara agus chraolfadh ar fud an náisiúin. Beidh a fhios ag na Teachtaí go bhfuil £4.5 mhilliún curtha i leataobh i gcaináisnéis na bliana seo do bhunú na seirbhíse seo.
With regard to Vote 43, I am also delighted to have been able to increase the funding for the National Gallery of Ireland by 7 per cent. The National Gallery is currently undergoing a major extension to its 1968 Wing at a cost of £6 million to the Exchequer and the reallocation of most of its administrative staff to 88 Merrion Square. This will release further exhibition space to the core building. When these developments have been completed the display of our national collections at the Gallery will be on a par with any of the major galleries in Europe.
I would like to take this opportunity to commend the board of governors and guardians of the National Gallery as well as the director and all his staff for their achievements over the years and their constant efforts to improve and develop the facilities of the gallery for the benefit of all.
With regard to Vote 44, Deputies will be aware that An Chomhairle Ealaíon have, in recent years, been demanding a significant increase in their funding towards a target that is based between £12-£13 million. The Government, under the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-97, are committed to meeting this target. To this end, I am happy to have achieved a 13 per cent increase this year bringing An Chomhairle's allocation to £11.5 million.
This new funding emphasis for the council will greatly enhance its role and will go some way to address what I consider to be an imbalance at present in central Government funding between heritage and contemporary arts measures.
However, I have no doubt that Deputies will agree with me that additional funding for State agencies brings with it additional responsibilities. It was in recognition of this fact that the Programme for Government states that An Chomhairle Ealaíon will be asked to operate on a coordinated three year plan for the funding of the arts. Such a plan will enable me as Minister to comment upon and seek adjustments, where appropriate, so as to ensure that my statutory obligations to maximise the return on the State's investments in the arts, and to operate an integrated and coherent funding policy across the arts, culture and heritage areas, are fulfilled.
I have yet to formally request An Chomhairle to draw up such a three year plan but I intend to do so immediately on the appointment of a new council, which I expect to be able to do within the next two months.
Níl ach léargas gairid tugtha agam daoibh ar na réimsí oibre a thagann faoi scáth mo Roinn-se ach táim cinnte go n-aontaíonn sibh liom gur obair a bhfuil tábhacht náisiúnta léi atá i gceist. Táim ag tnúth go mór le cúrsaí na Meastachán seo a phlé leis an choiste agus beidh mé lán-sásta aon cheisteanna atá ag na Teachtaí a fhreagairt feadh mo chumais.
I join with the Minister in offering congratulations to you, Chairman, as I did last week, and to the conveners, Deputies Bell and Flaherty.
I agree with the Minister that this is an historic occasion with the first Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht in the history of the State presenting Estimates for a specific Government Department with responsibility for these areas. It is a welcome development and I hope the arts and culture areas will flourish as a result over the years. It is interesting that in Ireland few people are untouched by some examples of excellence in the arts. In many ways the cultural community here has flourished despite, at times, an incoherent national policy approach to the arts. In many ways we have not had the sort of coherence needed in the past where responsibilities for the various areas were divided among several Government Departments and people tended to guard their own empires, which is not desirable.
Over the years Fine Gael has done much to rationalise and develop a more coherent approach to the arts. The Minister described today as an historic occasion and I will mention some historic events before I speak on the Estimates.
While this represents a new beginning it remains to be seen what action will be possible under this new Department. We must have the appropriate funding needed to create the necessary cultural infrastructure which is promised but is by no means completed. There are many elements to the development of this new cultural infrastructure and it is important — as the Minister mentioned — that our national institutions, for example, obtain the support to develop in the years ahead. The amount of structural funding, for example, which the Minister for Finance is willing to allocate and which the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht will, hopefully, succeed in obtaining in the period ahead will be a critical factor in determining the future development of arts and culture here and the development of the infrastructure which is needed.
This unique opportunity must be grasped in the coming years. Our attitude will determine the future of the arts to a large degree.
The intention of the Government, which has been put into place to a degree by the creation of this new Department, must be matched by the appropriate funding in the coming years. The previous ministry for fine arts here lasted 19 weeks and was quietly abolished at the signing of the Treaty with Britain in 1921. We have come a long way since the budget of 1925 when a grant of £800 was given to the Abbey Theatre. I would like to remind the House of a comment from the Department of Finance in 1937, during the course of a Government debate concerning the possible funding of a concert hall. The Department of Finance delivered itself of the opinion that the arrival of the musical talking film and the wireless set and gramophone had ensured that the necessity for public concerts had become smaller and would continue to decline. The Department asked, is it any part of the State's duty to resuscitate a Victorian form of education and recreation. I hope we have come a long way from that; I know we have.
Over the years we have seen a more co-ordinated approach and in 1975 the Arts Council was greatly strengthened, for example, when the Abbey Theatre, the Gate Theatre, the Irish Theatre Company, the Irish Ballet Company and the Dublin Theatre Festival were removed from the aegis of the Department of Finance. Following the Richards Report of 1976 the focus fell on regional development. It is critical that this regional development receives further support and plans must be put in place and appropriate funding provided to ensure this takes places.
Fine Gael appointed a Minister of State with responsibility for the Arts in 1982, produced a White Paper on cultural policy and established the national lottery to assist the funding of arts and culture. However, in relation to the regional distribution, the geographical gaps have been identified to a degree by the Arts Council. An appropriate plan can be prepared.
I questioned the Minister previously on the approach to education in arts and culture. There are serious gaps in this regard and the Green Paper does not adequately deal with the issues which need to be addressed. I hope the Minister will have discussions with the Minister for Education in relation to this and that we can see a greater interest within our schools in arts, culture and music. This is essential for our young people. Not enough has been done in this area and there must be a more co-ordinated approach to it from the Department of Education and more resources put in place.
Expectations of the Minister's Department are high. The Programme for Government identifies certain areas where the Minister should promote development. However, not included in that programme is a commitment to the provision of galleries, other performing places, museums and film centres around the country. It is essential that we provide proper funding on a regional basis to ensure that some of the facilities already available in Dublin and other cities around the country, notably Cork, Galway and Limerick, are available on a wider scale.
I wish to turn my attention now to the Arts Council which has published a major capital programme requiring £35 million in Structural Funds. The whole question of job creation in the arts must be addressed. Money should be allocated to carry out a study of the potential for job creation in this area. We have some indicators but no basic data. The employment figures from the Arts Council make interesting reading. There were 2,390 painters and sculptors in 1990, an increase of 158 per cent on the 1971 figure. The number of artists, entertainers and musicians increased by 75 per cent to 2,600. There were 3,900 authors and journalists in 1990, an increase of 147 per cent on the 1971 figure. These increases have taken place at a time of high unemployment.
I support the development of Teilifís na Gaeilge. The Minister has given a figure of £5 million for setting up this station but it is more likely to cost £20 million.
The figure I gave was £4.5 million.
From where does the Minister envisage the rest of the money for Teilifís na Gaeilge will come? Is there an assurance that the Government will receive funding from the EC for this station? Does the Minister envisage that the money will come from an increase in the licence fee? The setting up of this station will put a high charge on the Exchequer. What timescale does the Minister envisage for the further development of this station?
I congratulate the Minister on the reappointment of the Irish Film Board although I note there was no reference to it in the Estimates. What is the cost of reestablishing the Irish Film Board which will give a very important impetus — which has been missing for the last few years — to this industry? I look forward to the developments in this area. The job potential of the film industry cannot be underestimated. The provisions in the Finance Bill will go some way towards providing incentives in this area, but many others could be considered in terms of the development of our film industry.
Obviously the National Gallery is very pleased with its extension and the funds being made available at present. However, it is very worried about its security and staffing arrangements. At at time when an exhibition in New York organised by the National Gallery is attracting audiences of 3,000 per day it is not good enough that the gallery should have to worry about whether it has adequate staff and security to use the new space available to it. The National Gallery has had a major success and I join the Minister in congratulating all involved in its developments.
Will the Minister state if he thinks one education officer for the gallery is adequate considering that 30,000 tours are conducted annually and that it attracts one million visitors a year? Is one photographer adequate to deal with the collections? There are serious problems in regard to the professional and security staff in the gallery. In 1979 when the gallery had 56 staff it had to cope with 400,000 visitors. It now has 43 staff and has to cope with well in excess of one million visitors. It is clear that the gallery needs support to enable it to grow, expand, develop its work, do more touring exhibitions and display more exhibitions in the gallery. The gallery is inhibited in its work at present. To exploit the full potential of the new extension it needs more staff and proper security. I note that the telephone bill for the gallery last year was £28,000. A sum of £22,000 is being provided for the service this year. This is optimistic in view of the proposed increases in telephone charges.
It will have to make its calls on Sundays.
I note the Minister has allowed a good increase in the Estimates for the telephone charges for his Department.
In 1987 the Arts Council estimated that it needed funding of £13 million. It had been receiving only half that amount up to that time. There has been an improvement in this area. I estimate that the council needs an additional £3.5 million to enable it to carry out necessary work. This lack of funding has affected regional development. There are now 17 arts officers in various locations throughout the country. I am delighted that the new councils in Dublin will each have an arts officer. This is a very positive development.
In regard to the regional plans submitted for Structural Fund assistance, I am concerned that there has not been enough consultation in regard to the areas of arts and culture generally. I hope this issue can be addressed in the months ahead so that all the regions will have an adequate input to the plan. The Minister told us he has submitted a very comprehensive programme, but I question whether there has been enough consultation with the various regions about the development of this aspect of the plan.
I made it clear to the Minister that he should have adopted a more comprehensive approach in his review of broadcasting legislation. Such a comprehensive approach is needed in view of the knock-on effect on the various sectors of the action being taken by the Minister in the broadcasting Bill. As I will have another opportunity to discuss this matter during the debate on the broadcasting Bill next week. I will not elaborate on it now.
With regard to support for the RTE Orchestra and String Quartet, it was said before the cap was removed that these groups could not be supported. I believe many people would wish to see support given to these groups and I hope RTE will now be in a position to do so.
I wish to refer to the funding available to the National Museum. I am sure the Minister will agree it is a tragedy that entire collections are locked up and never seen by the public. For example, the folk life and fashion collection is locked away in a building in, I think, County Offaly, the collection on Captain Cook and his voyages has not been seen for 30 years and a wonderful industrial collection has never been seen. No Irish citizens has had an opportunity to see these endless treasures because of a lack of development. I heard a Fianna Fáil TD say on radio this morning that he should like to see the Collins Barracks site used as a detention centre. I thought it was proposed to use this site to develop the National Museum.
It is the same thing.
Whatever about the need for extra detention places, I hope that funding will be found under the next tranche of Structural Funds for the development of the National Museum.
With regard to the Estimates for the Gaeltacht, I wish to ask the Minister a question about the figure of £200,000 under Subhead F1 for the development of roads in the Gaeltacht. I am sure this funding is essential, but is it true that its allocation will be decided by the Minister? Will the Minister carry out a review of the way this money is spent? Will he agree it would be more appropriate for the local authority to allocate this money? Have any applications for this funding been refused? I have no doubt that the work needs to be done, but I am concerned about the allocation of the funding.
With regard to support for the Irish language, the Minister referred to an annual grant of £10 for schoolchildren in the Gaeltacht who are from Irish-speaking households and a daily grant of £3.50 per student paid to Gaeltacht households which provide accommodation for students attending Irish language courses. Does the Minister intend to review these amounts?
They have been changed.
I was making the point that these amounts have not been reviewed for quite some time.
They have not only been reviewed, but changed.
That is excellent. That was not clear from the Estimates, and I am delighted to hear it.
Will the Minister change the regulations for road grants — cumann members only may apply?
The Deputy has exceeded her 15 minutes. She will have an opportunity to ask questions on matters of detail at a later stage. Members should make their opening statements and leave questions of detail until later.
I welcome the Minister's commitment to the three yearly plan for the Arts Council. It is critical that organisations involved in the development of the arts have a three year programme for which they can present a budget as opposed to working on a yearly basis. I welcome the Minister's intention to do that, a practice that would be welcome also in other areas of the arts.
The development of the Temple Bar area is wonderful for Dublin. I am aware that the Department of the Environment are heavily involved in this area, but what responsibility will the Minister's Department have in regard to funding for the cultural institutions which it is planned to develop in that area?
Tréaslaím leat, a Chathaoirligh, as ucht do cheaptha mar Chathaoirleach don choiste seo, agus ba mhaith liom tréaslú freisin leis an mbeirt tionóltóir. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire as ucht a bhfuil déanta aige cheana féin, agus a bhfuil á bheartú aige maidir leis an gcultúr agus na healaíona, leis an nGaeltacht agus an nGaeilge trí chéile. Tá a fhios ag gach duine go bhfuil saibhreas teanga agus smaointe ag an Aire, mar dhuine, agus tá súil agam go mbeidh tionchar an-mhór ag an dá cháilíocht sin ar mhuintir na hÉireann.
This is an historic occasion. For the first time ever we have appointed a Minister with full responsibility for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. I cannot recollect who it was who once said "let me write a nation's songs and let he who will make its laws".
Perhaps it was the Minister.
I have no doubt the Minister will enlighten us in that regard before the end of the day. There is a key philosophy behind that statement and I would like to believe that we are at a watershed in Irish life and that, perhaps, we might break through the barrier of cynicism and materialism that has been eating into this country like a cancer for the past 25 years. It is having a detrimental effect on the morale of our citizens, particularly our young people. I am optimistic that, perhaps, through the appointment of the Minister and with other developments in this area, we can break through that barrier and change many things here. I am optimistic that this committee, led by its Chairman, and with the Minister and the inspiration of others, might be a force for making that happen.
Deputy Fitzgerald gave statistics about the number of people active in areas of the arts here. There are 120 people writing poetry in this country at present all of whom have had at least one collection published and many of whom have had several collections published. That is an indication of the artistic energy that is prevalent in this country but it must be nurtured and channelled, and that should be the task of this committee.
Development of the arts ought to be an integral part of all Government planning. On all decisions full account must be taken of the strategic importance of the arts in job creation. It is a fact that more people are working in community art groups than there are members of the Permanent Defence Forces. That is an interesting statistic. It is also a fact that employment in this sector is growing steadily at a time when jobs are being lost in so many other sectors. There is ample scope, however, for further growth and development in the arts sector, but this will only happen with proper planning and investment. The possibilities are endless and the benefits are enormous.
In social policy terms, the problems of inner city deprivation and rural depopulation can be successfully tackled in a cost effective manner by supporting art initiatives at local and community level. Carefully chosen art projects can be a real focus for growth in a region and a dynamic force for energising a dispirited community.
The importance of education to the arts is greatly underestimated in the Green Paper, but a real opportunity still exists to remedy that before the White Paper is published. Appreciation and education in the area of the arts should be central to all mainstream education because assuredly one kills the wealth of a nation by neglecting to nurture the creativity and imagination of its children. It is time the arts establishment learned to think in terms of instilling an appreciation of art in children.
Career opportunities for young people can be significantly enhanced by promoting non-traditional training courses, apprenticeship schemes, studio collectives and other innovative career options. Great emphasis has been placed on enterprise in education, but perhaps we should be talking about innovation in education and encouraging creative thinking such as that which has sprouted up spontaneously in so many parts of this country but is, unfortunately, remarkably absent in other parts.
I will not deal with the individual items in the Estimate now, but in broad terms better planning and more funding are required. I compliment the Minister for securing additional funding under every heading in this Estimate at a time when funds are scarce and when every penny has to be fought for. Nevertheless, the funding in this Estimate must be supplemented by funding from other sources. I refer, in particular, to the national lottery. I recommend that the original planned percentage of national lottery funds for the arts be restored and maintained. The Minister and this committee should fight for that.
State funding for the Arts Council should be brought into line with the agreement in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and account should be taken of inflation. I want to stress in particular the value, benefit and potential of the 1 per cent scheme whereby local authorities are entitled to keep 1 per cent of the cost of an overall public project and use that money to create a work of art in their own region. There is enormous potential in that scheme. Undoubtedly, a great deal more money will be made available under the Structural Funds and it is important that each local authority in its own area is encouraged and assisted to use that money to the full. I ask the Minister to take a stronger interest in that scheme. I do not have great faith in another Department for dealing with matters of that nature. Bridges, roads and gullies are high on the priority list of that Department and, perhaps, rightly so.
The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, and his Department, should exert strong influence in securing certain changes to that scheme. Two changes in particular should be made. First, the scheme should be mandatory because in some local authority areas no one seems to have heard of it. Second, the ceiling of £20,000 should be raised as it is a very small amount, particularly if one wants to do anything that will have an impact in an area.
The downstream crossing in Cork will cost in the region of £60 million. Imagine what could be done in this area if the local authority, which has used this scheme well and effectively, could lay its hands on 1 per cent of the cost of that project and the work that could be created for practising artists in the area. This would make a difference to the city of Cork and the people who pass through it.
The Minister is aware of the good work that has been done already in the city under the scheme. He visited a housing complex for senior citizens where on a gable wall a beautiful stained glass window by one of Ireland's, perhaps Europe's, best stained glass artists, James Scanlon, a Kerryman, has been fitted. In this way art has been brought to the living environment of older people to brighten their day. About two weeks ago in a similar scheme I came across another art project, again on a gable wall. In this way art is being brought to the people, in particular those who live in housing estates many of which are run down and shabby because of poor allocations for housing in recent times. We are now redressing the imbalance.
I ask the Minister to consider the manner in which the scheme could be used in cities to bring art to ordinary people, including children, and away from the galleries. In her contribution Deputy Fitzgerald referred to the need for more art centres. While they are needed, I am not in favour of putting all the money into these centres; I would allocate a great deal of it to theatre companies and to those who are active in the community. Recently someone in Cork said that we have too many temples and too few vestal virgins. Let us have more vestal virgins in the community to brighten people's lives and to raise their morale and spirits.
That is a challenge; the Minister for vestal virgins.
They are to be found only in Cork.
We should not pepper this country with buildings that we will not be able to maintain later. Let us bring art to the children. There is a profusion of art pieces but we do not have enough places in which to house them. Why can we not put paintings in our libraries and public buildings? There are paintings and fine works of art locked in cellars in the National Gallery. Why can we not take them out, dust them down and place them in branch libraries? There are no art centres in some parts of the midlands. We should adopt an approach where we integrate our libraries and art work. Why can we not send a few paintings to county halls to inspire our county managers and councillors? In regard to the extra Structural Funds which I hope we will receive, we should not, as I said, pepper this country with buildings which we will not be able to maintain in ten years' time. We should use them instead to create a living arts community. If this is done people will do things. The funds should be given to theatre and art groups.
I am dwelling on this point because this is a fundamental resource which we can either use well or badly. A number of local authorities need assistance in using the scheme effectively. I would like to see an arts officer in every local authority area because such a person is the link between management and the arts community and can make the activity I am talking about happen. It is important that proper guidelines are laid down to enable this to happen in the context of the Structural Funds. We should use every penny to best advantage.
There is an enormous imbalance between the capital and the regions, which is most annoying. In some parts of the country young people in particular have little or no access to the arts. A clear policy should be adopted so that over the next five years this imbalance is redressed. This matter should be taken into account when the Minister appoints the members of the new Arts Council. I appeal to him not to appoint Galway people only.
What an outrageous suggestion.
What a good idea.
A proper balance must be struck; it should include representatives of the regions who are answerable to the regions and who know their needs and potential. This must be reflected in the membership of the new Arts Council.
And Northern Ireland.
I regard Northern Ireland as a region; some day I must tell Deputy Fitzgerald about my Republican stock.
The six north-eastern counties.
In appointing the members of the Arts Council and the Film Board——
The Deputy might be too late.
Is the Minister making an announcement?
No.
I have confidence in the Minister——
The Deputy is making a good speech.
The Deputy has exceeded the time limit of 15 minutes.
I apologise. The point I am trying to make is that we can have all the fine ideas and policies in the world — Professor Lee always says all we are short of is ideas — but if funding is not provided we will not be able to make things happen. National lottery funding should be restored while the 1 per cent scheme should be exploited. If this happens we can achieve our policy objectives.
I welcome the Minister to our committee meeting in his role as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. This is an important occasion and should be marked in our records as the first occasion on which an Estimate has been presented in this area. This is a good thing. For far too long the tradition was to pay lip service to the arts and the Gaeltacht and to say we were too poor to do anything about it. In many respects the past ten years have seen as much attrition against the arts as against any other area, marked most significantly by the way in which local authorities have been forced to cut back on library services. In many cases they are the main points of access for ordinary people — if I might use that phrase — to distinguish them from the extraordinary people whom I am sure would not wish to be named by me.
In any event I hope that approach to the arts is at an end given that Deputy Higgins is the Minister in charge, although I recognise that he does not have a role in the question of funding library services——
More is the pity.
Perhaps he might dip his finger into that area at some stage in the near future. The general welcome for Deputy Higgins as Minister in this area across the political spectrum and in all sectors of the community is a recognition that as a parliament we need to take the arts seriously, not as a luxury or the icing on the cake.
A friend of mine who knew I was participating in this debate today urged me to quote J. B. Priestley on the question of the arts. I do not know from where the reference has come but he is reputed to have said:
Art is not really like the icing on the cake, it is far more like the yeast in the dough. It is not something added for decoration and fancy-work, when the solid job has been done; it is much nearer the leaven, permeating and then aerating and lifting the doughy stuff of life.
That is the approach I hope and expect the Minister to adopt in regard to the arts. It is not solely the responsibility of the Minister. If we are serious about it every Minister, Minister of State, Deputy and Senator in the Oireachtas should take that approach to life and to decisions made by us.
Deputy Quill quoted a statement from someone who said: "let who may make the laws but I want to write songs," or something on those lines. I would much prefer that those who write the songs write the laws because we would have more humane laws as a result. It is a mistake to seek to draw a distinction between——
That was not the point.
I appreciate the point the Deputy made but I am drawing a further point from it. I am not in any way critical of Deputy Quill.
As long as the Deputy does not take from its meaning.
Whoever he was.
Will the Deputy tell us about his published short stories?
No, I do not have that capacity and the Deputy can take it from me that I will never write a biography.
That will be a task for somebody else.
Neither will I publish a book of speeches.
Will the Deputy consider asking Gordon Thomas to do it?
We should try to have an approach to the arts which sees them as part of life and not as a luxury to be enjoyed at the week-end if you have the money. The criticism I make of politicians is not confined to those whom I would regard as being on the conservative side of the spectrum. The Left has not been without those who regard bread and butter issues as the only thing which would be of concern to people. O'Casey and Jim Larkin made it clear in their lives that we wanted bread and roses. In discussing the arts we should seek as politicians — some of us with a little influence and some with more — access to and participation in the arts as an overriding factor in all our decisions. I have no doubt that in my constituency the serious problem of poverty, unemployment and deprivation, is made worse by the fact that people's view of life is narrowed to some extent by the nature of the education they receive and the literature available to them. In that regard we should be seriously concerned about the growing literacy problem in our education system. There is little point in our prating around the world about the great literary tradition of Ireland if tens of thousands of our people cannot read, never mind write the future literary masterpieces which we hope some of them have the capacity to do. It is a question of how we view the arts; if we see them simply in terms of looking at the Estimates once a year and agreeing that we would spend 5 per cent or 10 per cent more, then we would be failing to adopt an approach which would ensure that the quality of life for everybody is improved.
I said earlier that we should not just be concerned about bread and butter issues. Equally, I would be concerned about a view that sees the arts as a bread and butter issue in itself and that its sole purpose in Government policy would be the number of jobs it might create and the number of people it might take off the dole queues. Clearly, it is important that people who work in the area are adequately paid and protected in terms of sickness and old age. There is no reason the myth of the artist in the garret should be perpetuated. The myth that the best work is produced by people living in poverty is nonsense as far as I am concerned. We need to draw a tight line between the need to ensure there is work, that people are properly employed and the question of whether that is the sole purpose in developing the arts.
There is a range of other areas with which I would like to deal but I understand there will be an opportunity for questions and answers at a later stage.
My final point concerns Irish, it is one I made a number of times here and outside the House. I speak fairly poor Irish, but at least I speak some and I am proud of it. I am proud of the fact we have a language, other than English, alive in Irish society. It is part of the cultural heritage of the majority of the people of this island. In promoting Irish, the survival of Irish and all that goes with it our catchery should be Irish without chauvinism. Its use should be such that it opens us out to other influences and does not turn us in on ourselves. It should not be used as a kind of shield, as used to be the case, against what were regarded as foreign influences. When I was growing up I was told that the main reason Irish was to be revived as the principal language of the country was to protect us from the pernicious influences from England which was regarded as an awful place despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of our people went there to work, to live and to make their life. Those are just a few general points I wanted to make by way of introduction and of welcome to the Minister.
Let me now draw your attention to the fact that we are now running ten minutes behind our suggested time table. We will, therefore, proceed to Vote 42 and take it subhead by subhead. The members of the Committee may ask questions as we go through the subheads. Perhaps the Minister would reserve his replies until the end rather than replying to every question. We hope to conclude Vote 42 by 12 noon and then to devote 15 minutes each to Votes 43 and 44. With the co-operation of the committee we will try to stay within those time limits. On Vote 42 we have paragraphs 1 and 2, and subheads.
On paragraph 2 — Salaries, Wages and Allowances — will the 13 staff, whom I see as some kind of consolation prize to the Minister's Department, look after the heritage side of the Office of Public Works policy on heritage centres etc? I note that the 13 staff will transfer to the Minister's Department to establish a unit for the formulation of policy. Are these included in the 276 civil servants in the Department or are they additional?
Would the Minister give us some idea what those 13 staff will be doing in his Department? It strikes me that they will have a very difficult job to do to divine from the Minister's speech what exactly their purpose is. Will they be able to stop the Office of Public Works from doing something it wants to do? Will the Minister, as a senior Minister at Cabinet, have power to tell a Minister of State, Deputy Noel Dempsey, what to do in regard to the Office of Public Works and the heritage centres that have caused so much controversy.
I am sure the Deputy meant interpretative centres.
Yes, they are supposed to be heritage centres too. The Minister referred to problems associated with providing access to our heritage and possible conflicts. It is all in the Minister's usual wonderful language, but it is hard to discover exactly what responsibilities have been given to his Department, how they will be financed and how the functions will be carried out under this subhead.
I could make the language pedestrian.
The Minister could indeed, but that would lessen his dignity and his status and everything else.
I would like to know where these 13 staff will be deployed, what their function will be and if there will be an end to the dichotomy that has existed between the Minister's Department and the Office of Public Works.
The Minister mentioned that heritage matters include various parks, inland waterways and wildlife. Many heritage parks, such as the one in Monaghan at Rossmore have castles which are under the control of Coillte and they have been very slow to develop the parks. After ten years no headway has been made in developing Rossmore Castle which is beside a very populous town. Could the Minister, in consultation with Coillte, draw up a list of priorities for the development of areas which come under the heading of heritage?
I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the new emphasis on arts and culture and its huge potential for enriching all our lives. A tremendous, spontaneous growth of interest is evidenced throughout Dublin and the rest of the country and it should be nourished and developed.
There is no better woman than my colleague on my right to lead us to the question of the group of 13 staff to be appointed with responsibility for national monuments and the formulation of policy for wildlife parks, waterways etc. There has been a major find at Ross Road in Dublin. Will the Minister with his new staff, be in a position to intervene positively to ensure that this important monument is preserved for the city of Dublin, for the country and for the world at large? What a developer has found on that site is a very early stone structure which is one of the first in the area that it would be possible to preserve. The City Council has bought time — six weeks — so that this can be looked into. Is this a matter on which the Minister could intervene at an early date? The alternative is that the stone be covered up again and left — perhaps, for future generations — and a car park built over it. That would be a devastating outcome. Will the Minister be able to make decisions with regard to national monuments, their future their preservation and the nature of their preservation? Could the Minister be of assistance in this particular case?
I am delighted to see that 13 staff have travelled over from the Department of the Environment and the Office of Public Works. In regard to the formulation of policy on the built heritage, could this group of people help him to frame conservation legislation? I know we will all be asking the Minister to poke his nose into the Department of the Environment but I think that strong, comprehensive conservation legislation is needed to protect our built heritage which is a finite cultural resource. I am delighted to see that the Minister's Department will start with this and that it has responsibility for national monuments.
In regard to buildings which fall short of being national monuments, such as the Merrion Street buildings and houses in Capel Street which we have had to call national monuments in order to protect them from demolition, would the Minister undertake to include in his policy formulation a whole range of measures to protect such houses and integrate that into the policy for the Temple Bar area. The demolition of two houses in Essex Quay brought a dark day for the Temple Bar properties. I think the Minister's Department can, through the formulation of policy, make some headway in protecting our built heritage all around the country, but particularly in Dublin.
Are there any questions on subhead A2, Travel and Subsistence?
I am aware the Minister lives in Galway. The estimate for travel is not significant. I was surprised that the Estimate for entertainment under subhead A3, is so low and I am sure the Minister will increase expenditure in that area. He should be congratulated in respect of the low estimated figure for entertainment but in the area of arts and culture I am sure it will be possible to provide an increased allocation.
It is a very small entertainment budget.
In relation to optimum uses of travel, what is the Minister's view in relation to the use of a helicopter? Is it a very expensive mode of transport and is it used regularly?
I note the allocation for travel in Ireland has increased to £157,000. As a representative of one of the smaller Gaeltachts will the Minister ensure that some of the increased allocation will be used to visit the Cork Gaeltacht? Its allocation of funds during recent years has paled into insignificance compared with that granted to other Gaeltachts. Will the Minister avail of the increased allocation to visit the Cork Gaeltacht?
I wish to refer to the work of the Cultural Relations Committee, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the international links that must be established to promote Irish arts and culture internationally. Will the Minister indicate what role his Department could play in this regard? The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is establishing some of those links but it may be more appropriate for the Minister's Department or a similar committee within his Department to develop this area by promoting Irish art and culture internationally.
I am concerned about the amount of money allocated for staff training and development. I would have liked a greater allocation under that subheading. It is important when the Minister is making a fresh start on many fronts in his Department that, more funds are allocated under that subhead. Deputy Fitzgerald referred to assisting the arts in order to establish stronger links with art centres and the art communities in the EC member states to enable a fair exchange of works of art, commercially and otherwise. There is great scope for improvements in this area. That will be possible only if there is a strengthening of a subdepartment and personnel within the Minister's Department and a link with the Department of Foreign Affairs.
There are a number of other areas in which the Minister's Department could make inroads to bring about a great deal of far reaching fundamental improvements if it was given the scope to draw up a number of initiatives under one roof. It should gradually — and later formally — take greater responsibility for public libraries and the spending of the 1 per cent to which I referred earlier. More people within the Department should be retrained and people with artistic training should establish further contacts with the arts community. Too much of the EC Structural Funds will be spent on engineering works. As I said earlier it is not on bridges alone man doth live. I would like to see a counter-balance emanating from the Minister's Department. That will only be possible if sufficient funds are allocated in this Estimate to provide staff training and development to enable them to play an influential role in forthcoming events. I would have liked more money to have been allocated under that subhead.
Are there any questions under subhead A4, Postal and Telecommunications Services?
I compliment the Minister's officials for speedily obtaining the most up-to-date Estimate figure. Obviously, they have taken on board the huge increases in telephone costs that will be incurred by the Department in September. Does this figure include the availability of a freefone service so that those who ring his Department seeking general advice will not have to listen to An Cúileann or other beautiful music for 15 minutes while staff get information? Does this Estimate include a freefone service? Does this subhead include the high cost of mobile walkie-talkie type telephones used by outdoor staff? Is that cost provided for under this subhead or is it included somewhere else? I am sure the Minister has a mobile 'phone so that he can be contacted during the day. Does the estimated figure of £149,000 under this subhead cover those facilities?
I will give details in regard to all three points in a moment.
Are there any questions on subhead A5, Equipment and Office Supplies?
Are there any questions on subhead A6, Office Premises Expenses?
Are there any questions on subhead A7, Consultancy Services?
I congratulate the Minister and the convenors on their appointments. I wish to refer to two items under this subhead. Firstly, regarding the policy unit on inland waterways, will the Minister indicate his proposals for this area? In recent years there has been considerable expansion in the use of the inland waterways. Development works have been carried out to clean up the Royal Canal and the Grand Canal and link them with the Shannon, and on the Lough Erne and the Ballyconnell Canal. This is an area in which employment can be created and it is also a tourist amenity. Development of this area could be incorporated in a policy statement. Will the Minister indicate his proposals for this area?
Secondly, regarding national monuments I wish to refer to a matter which has already been referred to. Last year the Office of Public Works declared the building, 95 Capel Street, a national monument. This was unusual as we do not think of former residential buildings as national monuments. Every effort was made by the local authorities and city councillors to preserve this building. The necessity for remedial action to ensure that the building was renovated or, at least, maintained in a condition to prevent it being demolished was raised on a number of occasions, but no action was taken by the local authority. On the eve of a major debate at the weekend on the preservation of the building a court order was obtained by the city manager and the building was demolished that weekend. A special meeting to debate the preservation of the building was scheduled for the following Monday. The building was demolished under the dangerous building legislation. We must examine that legislation to ensure that type of action is not taken in respect of a building that is part of our built heritage and officially recognised officially as one which should be preserved. I would like the Minister to deal with this matter in the context of legislation on urbanisation.
Are there any questions on subhead B, Grant-in-Aid fund for the National Museum, the National Library and the National Archives?
Regarding the National Library, the National Archives and particularly the National Museum, will the Minister elaborate on the proposals being given an airing by the media that the National Museum is to be transferred from its present location to Collins Barracks and developed as a national museum and heritage centre? I support that proposal as the National Museum requires space to display its collections.
Speaker after speaker this morning drew the attention of the committee to the inordinate amount of historical, archaeological and national treasures buried in dungeons in the basements of galleries or museums. Therefore, something of this nature is necessary, in terms of putting on display the treasure and enormous amount of works of art available to the nation, which would lead to increased employment and attract more and more visitors to such exhibitions. Overall it is an area that requires to be closely examined and a considerable policy change from the present one devised.
Will the Minister say what specific proposals there are in regard to Collins Barracks? Is there any substance in the current publicity, particularly on the part of Deputy Callely, to have it used as a prison? I made the facetious remark earlier that there was little difference between its being used as a prison and a museum. That comment related more to the prison service than to the museum service, the manner in which people end up in prison and the high degree of recidivism. Of course, it should be noted that only a tiny proportion of the population go to prison and a very high proportion of those will have been there perhaps two, three, four or five times. Therefore, it will clearly be seen that it is not, if you like, a very egalitarian procedure in that our courts system tends to concentrate on putting certain classes of people in prison.
The point needs to be clarified because it seems — apart from the fact that I am sure the main reason Deputy Callely is proposing Collins Barracks is used as a prison is that it is not located in his constituency — that the proposal to use Collins Barracks as a prison is simply a counsel of despair. Its use for housing works of art would be much more useful and worthwhile.
In regard to museums in general, does the Minister envisage having direct contact or being in a position to help some local authorities who have done tremendous work on local history and local museums, in the course of which quite a number of national items of interest have come to light? While I appreciate that it could not be done in this year's budget will he consider the possibility of giving some direct help to local authorities to allow them to improve their museums?
Under the other heading of the Arts, again in next year's budget — I appreciate that it cannot be done this year — in the case of a local authority, of its own volition, putting money into a museum or a large centre, with a view to encouraging young artists within their area, will his Department grant-aid such investment commensurate with the amount contributed by the local authority?
We should all join the Minister in congratulating the National Museum and its director on their initiative in achieving such a huge increase in income.
Will the Minister indicate what element of the 1993 Estimate figure of £405,000 — I note that most of it arises from earnings — is a direct State grant? Has that been increased? While being allowed to retain all their earnings is an enormous incentive for development, given what Deputy Frances Fitzgerald said about the great number of valuable collections which have never been shown, or shown only for very short periods over the past 50 or 60 years, obviously there is enormous need for development and more space provided for such collections. I have not studied their budget closely but, within the context of their expansion needs, will this substantial increase enable them to provide the additional space required and undertake the requisite work to bring such collections up to exhibition standard since they have been in storage for so long?
I should like to join my colleagues in their comments about the future of Collins Barracks and what happens to it which will be enormously important within the overall context of the city of Dublin. Certainly its use as a prison would be totally unacceptable since it is located close to two major historic areas, Smithfield and the south quays. We envisage enormous potential in Collins Barracks being properly developed, what we foresee in Dublin Corporation as a proper potential development. Probably the preferred choice would be its use as a residential centre, or as a centre for the Dublin Institute of Technology which would bring a great deal of life to residents. Another potential use which would bring enormous life into the area would be the National Museum being located there. Certainly, its use as a prison would come very far down the list of priorities——
Hear hear.
——and would be totally unacceptable.
I support Deputy Davern. Monaghan had the first local authority museum which won a Council of Europe award ensuring its attractiveness to visitors and the local authority expended money on it over the years. I agree that it also constitutes an area with potantial for job creation. Nonetheless it is a large drain on local authorities. Therefore, if at all possible, the Minister should help them in regard to further development.
I note that the city council is well represented here today, especially the planning development committee of which I am a member. I urge on the Minister the importance of the Collins Barracks site and refer him to a major conservation and development plan which the planning department of Dublin Corporation presented to us at the last planning and development committee meeting. The Minister might well liaise with the excellent planners, particularly those on the urban design team, who are concentrating on the development of the Liffey quays, from whom he would learn of the political will of the city council and the professional preference in the planning department, which would be for its use as a museum or as the Dublin Institute of Technology. It is all part of the architectural heritage of the quays, a major part of that lower end of the quays in respect of which we are endeavouring to encourage sensitive development. I hope the Minister will liaise with the planning department since we have an excellent urban design team whose expertise should be brought to bear on this very valuable resource.
I too should like to comment on the issue of the usage of Collins Barracks, the last city council listed many such buildings much to the disgust of certain people in the Department of Defence. I was chairman of that committee at the time and received many interesting telephone calls. As Deputy Flaherty will remember the decision led to a heated debate. Nonetheless, it was a good day's work if only for the historical importance of the barracks to that part of the city. There is great potential there for a second Trinity College, in the sense of the life that Trinity College brings to its environs. If Collins Barracks were to be developed, as a college and a museum, it could have the same effect on a neglected part of the city, one that really needs an uplift.
I agree with Deputy O'Donnell that a very good plan was drawn up by Dublin Corporation who did an excellent job, suggesting how it might be developed. Their record speaks for itself since they were the first people to draw up a plan for the Temple Bar area. Much of what is taking place there at present is along the lines they suggested initially. One of the attractions of Trinity College and its surroundings is that so many people visit it to look at the Book of Kells and the campus. There is a huge opportunity for the Government to take a major step in redeveloping and rebuilding that part of the north inner city.
The topic has been fairly well covered at this stage but I asked the Minister for Defence yesterday about this matter and he informed me he was in discussions with both the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Education. To reiterate what I said at the beginning of my contribution, this would represent an historic breakthrough and would offer opportunities for major development in the work of the National Museum if this project can get under way.
Can I make a suggestion to the Minister under this heading. Far be it from me to say that any member of this committee or indeed any Member of the Dáil would be lacking in culture but from a personal point of view I find it difficult to fit into my political agenda visits to special exhibitions or functions that take place in our National Museum or National Library. Would the Minister consider, as did a former Minister in his Department, Deputy Ted Nealon, arranging for Deputies to visit the Chinese Warrior Exhibition? It is difficult to fit such visits into one's calendar and it might help the Minister when he is seeking additional moneys if he and all the members of the committee are ad idem on these issues.
In response to points mentioned by Deputy Davern and Deputy Leonard concerning the transfer of items from the National Museum to local museums and exhibitions throughout the country, would the transport and insurance costs be covered by the Department or would they have to be covered by the local authorities involved?
It was not my intention to speculate on the Collins Barracks issue.
Cork or Dublin?
I do not want this debate to turn into another meeting of Dublin County Council.
City Council.
I beg your pardon, City Council. In relation to the museum I wish to make two points. First, I want to compliment the curator and management of the museum for the fine return they have shown in this year. I welcome the fact that a public body such as the National Museum can get such a desirable financial return at the end of the year, using their initiative to enhance their own income, for which they deserve the praise of all of us here.
The creation of a second museum here in the capital is a notion to which I could not give my support. I wish to repeat what I said earlier concerning items of art or museum-type items that are held in hiding here in some of the public buildings in this city for lack of space. Creating a second museum in the capital is not the way to address that problem. The items that are currently not on display should be returned to our towns and provincial cities for display because these items are the property of the Irish nation. No city, even if it is the capital, has the right to house all of these items.
To hide them.
There is a touch of the old colonial mentality about wanting to house everything in Dublin and it is about time that that attitude changed. This debate gives us an opportunity to make that point.
The Deputy should resource and house them adequately in her local authority as we have difficulty doing that in our Municipal Gallery.
In so far as I am aware, and I can only speak for a small region in the south-west of the country——
Small?
——we have a number of local museums that are well maintained and well funded by enlightened local authorities and an appreciative general public. They are capable of housing, maintaining and displaying additional material. I do not want to see the life's blood of the region continuing to be sucked into the capital city.
Is the Deputy not happy that we let her in?
This debate gives us an opportunity to rectify that. I mentioned earlier the existing imbalance here between the capital city and the regions. We should be examining ways and means of redressing that imbalance, not reinforcing it. As we are discussing museum items, what better location to display a museum piece than in the location where it was found and where the artefact was first crafted? It should be displayed in its natural location to enable young people develop an interest in, an affinity with and an appreciation of the arts and crafts of their forefathers. That is fundamental and I hope it will become a policy decision. When opportunities present themselves and when we seek to create opportunities I hope there will be reverse traffic so that items of value and interest can be displayed in the locations from which they come.
There is no shortage of public buildings. We have public libraries and local museums that are only partially used. We have art rooms in community and comprehensive schools and a range of public buildings where works of art can and should be displayed.
Clearly Cork is still very envious of Dublin and they are not prepared to recognise that we are the capital city.
Hear, hear.
Did we not give Cork the Eurovision last week, so we are decentralising? Perhaps next week Cork will be the venue for another event.
And we did well.
Such a patronising point.
Can we have order, please. Cork will have an opportunity tomorrow afternoon in Thurles.
Not for the first time.
Perhaps Deputy Quill misunderstands what is proposed in relation to Collins Barracks as I understand it. There would not be two museums created in Dublin but the museum would be relocated in order to have adequate space to display our national treasures and that we would have a site appropriate to the fine collections in the museum. I agree with Deputy Quill that we should, in so far as possible, decentralise in terms of putting on displays around the country in the areas where these items were uncovered.
The general records office is located in Dublin at present but there was a proposal which was announced during the general election that it would be transferred to Roscommon or Longford. We should have a facility in Dublin to contain either copies or the originals of the records in the context of all of the other research and genealogical facilities that are in Dublin, whether it is the National Archives or the National Library. According to Bord Fáilte 96 per cent of tourists who visit Dublin are interested in pursuing their genealogical heritage. This transfer of a facility, which is an integral part of a broader research facility and amenities within the city, should not take place without examination of its implications. I would ask the Minister to consider that proposal also.
I agree with Deputy Quill's sentiments about decentralisation. I would not like Deputies to forget the west where we also have many available locations for museums.
On a point of order, will the Minister reply at the end of the Vote?
I was hoping we could agree to let the Minister reply to Vote 42 at 12 o'clock because we then must proceed to Votes 43 and 44.
I am perfectly willing to reply now.
That is acceptable, if the committee agrees. Does the committee still intend to stick to the timetable and proceed to Vote 43 at 12 o'clock.
When will the debate on Vote 43 commence?
According to the agreed timetable, we are to take Vote 43 at 12 o'clock and Vote 44 at 12.15 p.m. Subheads C and D are related and perhaps we can deal with these before the Minister replies.
I thank the Minister for the documentation he gave us this morning. I also wish to thank the Chairman of the Committee and the Convenor for their work. I am delighted to be a member of this Committee.
I should like the Minister to pay more attention to amateur dramatic societies, particularly those in rural areas where people do not have access to other areas of the arts. As Deputy Owen said, politicians do not have much free time to become involved in the arts. Before I entered politics, I was very involved in an amateur dramatics society where I worked with adults and children. I was also very influential in having an old church in County Kerry converted into a magnificent theatre. At that time there was no Government Department to approach for funding. It is possible for sports clubs to be funded under the national lottery. Amateur dramatic societies, which do very valuable work, should also be entitled to funding under the national lottery.
I, too, congratulate the Minister on the documentation provided. The only basis on which dramatic societies, music and dancing groups can get funding at present is if they take part in festivals in Europe and elsewhere. This funding is provided by the Cultural Relations Committee of the Department of Foreign Affairs. The amount of funding given to groups for this purpose is very small. Will the Minister indicate if lottery funding could be provided through his Department for groups who travel abroad to participate in festivals?
Ballinasloe, which holds a great fair in October every year, is twinned with Ballycastle, County Antrim. There are many cultural exchanges between the two towns. While groups from Ballinasloe who wish to go on a cultural exchange to Ballycastle cannot get any funding, apparently there is no such problem for groups from Ballycastle who wish to go on cultural exchanges to Ballinasloe. This matter needs to be looked at. As other speakers said, funding is available for groups in Britain and Northern Ireland who wish to go on a cultural exchange to towns in other countries.
I am a member of Galway County Council Arts Committee, which I understand will meet the Minister very shortly. I will hold over many of my questions on local issues until that meeting. I understand that the town hall in Galway city is reverting to the city of Galway. There is a very strong lobby in Galway which believes that this building should be used as a municipal gallery. This goes back to the point made by Deputy Quill. Many people strongly believe that the Spanish collection in the National Gallery should be housed in a gallery in Galway.
The building has reverted to the county council, so the Deputy will be able to help.
I am not a member of the county council but I will certainly make my point at the Arts Committee.
The Deputy should seek to be co-opted on to the council.
I would be delighted if the Minister could ge me co-opted on the council.
It is frustrating for art teachers not to be able to bring their pupils to galleries to see paintings. Will the Minister address this matter as it is topical and it is appropriate that I should raise it here? Like Deputy Quill, I am not in favour of spending money on buildings; I prefer to help the groups involved. However, in this case where the town hall in Galway is reverting to the county council, consideration should be given to converting it to a municipal gallery.
I agree with the points made in regard to decentralisation. Will the Minister give consideration to the possibility of bringing arts and culture to our schools? Exhibitions which have been brought to various schools throughout the country have proved very successful. I should like to see this initiative developed further. It is very important that children have access to exhibitions. Obviously galleries cannot be set up in every town, and the exhibitions which have been brought on tour have proved very successful.
I wish to refer to the Worth Library in the Eastern Health Board headquarters, the former Dr. Steeven's Hospital. It is very important that public authorities such as Monaghan County Council, which was referred to by my colleague, Deputy Leonard, should develop such facilities. I understand that the Worth Library was left in perpetuity to Dr. Steeven's Hospital and that the Eastern Health Board refurbished the original library. I understand that the health board and Trinity College are involved in a dispute over the placement of the books. I have always held the view that disputes between two institutions funded by the State should not be allowed to develop. Does the Minister have any plans to intervene in this dispute to ensure there is a proper settlement?
I know the Minister attended the Eurovision Song Contest in Millstreet last weekend but I am not sure if he had an opportunity to visit the Euro Threshold Contemporary Art Exhibition held there.
Yes, I did.
The lack of funding available for voluntary groups has been highlighted by those groups which, at enormous expense to themselves, have mounted exhibitions. Cork County Council was asked to provide grant aid for this exhibition. However, due to the financial constraints under which it must operate, it was only able to offer the people putting on this exhibition a grant of £300 although it cost approximately £14,000. I am sure the Minister appreciates the value and merit of such exhibitions. In view of this, I ask him and his Department to investigate the possibility of making some sort of meaningful contribution to the organisers of this exhibition who incurred financial losses in bringing it to Millstreet.
Deputy O'Hanlon referred to the possibility of bringing more exhibitions to schools throughout the country. I recently attended a meeting of the Arts Committee of the Council of Europe, of which I am a member. European institutions are now devoting more attention to the development of the arts as they relate to the handicapped. Workshops for the handicapped in the north-east region have, under FÁS schemes, employed a teacher to teach arts to handicapped people. From what I have seen, this initiative has been a tremendous success. Will the Minister say if such initiatives are likely to be funded by his Department or if they will be spread between the Department of Health and the Department of Education — no one seems to know who is responsible for the handicapped — as is the case in many matters relating to the handicapped?
On subhead D, Grant-in-aid for the National Heritage Council, the Minister said that he is proposing to put this council on a statutory basis. Will a commitment in regard to legislation given by the Minister in this Committee be on the record of the House and can questions be asked about it on the Order of Business?
I have already given a commitment in the House.
The Minister has indicated he will examine all the legislation relating to national monuments and wild-life parks as it relates to planning and development. Can we take that as being on the record of the House? Are promises being made with regard to the principle at issue and may we ask about them in the Chamber? Will the Chair clarify that for us?
I have no difficulty in that regard.
I know that, but we may not be as lucky with other Ministers or indeed the Ceann Comhairle when we want to ask questions.
We will arrange to have that clarified.
I thank all the Members for this fine debate which has indicated the enormous interest in arts, culture and creativity. It is very heartening and encouraging that people, irrespective of political affiliations, are of one mind on their importance. I know my Government colleagues will want to note that because it makes the case that the Department is not peripheral or the ministry anything but central.
In the new approach I want to give as much information as possible in answer to Dáil questions. Some of the points raised by Deputy Flaherty are clearly matters that would arise within a legislative programme. I have no difficulty with that and we will work out the other technical difficulty.
Many of our Members are members of local authorities. The State will not change everything. It is important that the sentiments expressed in this House are fed back to the local authorities. I will be looking for co-operation from local authorities and, where it is not forthcoming, I intend to take other measures to implement matters that I regard as being in the public interest.
As the author of the proposal in relation to Collins Barracks which has absorbed so much energy this morning, I want to make a few points perfectly clear. When Collins Barracks was up for sale by tender and when the best tender on offer was not accepted I indicated my interest in Collins Barracks to the Minister for Defence and the Government. I might as well tell this committee everything that is a matter of speculation in the papers. The reason there is speculation is that some matters leaked out. I had the building examined and a report on its suitability, costings and so on will be presented to me within a week or ten days. My proposals for the building were in relation to addressing the accommodation needs of the museum. All Deputies have spoken on the importance of the site. Another important aspect is that part of the site contains a graveyard from 1798. There is the possibility of it being integrated as a cultural space with Kilmainham and the Phoenix Park for which I have some other proposals in mind. There is a whole area there which can be developed. I was looking at it in terms of the museum. Other Members expressed an opinion as to its suitability for the Dublin Institute of Technology. There is not room for everything in it. It is proposed also that it would be suitable as a sort of Trinity II campus. Members referred to a proposal for its use as a place of incarceration. Elements of some of the proposals will be considered and I want the Committee to know our thoughts. The suggestion that it be used as a prison is bizarre.
With regard to the Education proposal, I understand the Department is rethinking its position in relation to the Dublin Institute of Technology. It is looking for an administrative headquarters and it sees other possibilities. I am negotiating in regard to the building.
In reply to a point made by Deputy Ryan, I cannot go into detail now but I can accommodate some points. One possibility relates to the absence of regional arts college provision in so many places. I hope to address that issue and I will come back to it when the Structural Funds become available. In their absence I intended to use perhaps a residential component for bursaries for arts students who wish to finish their education in Dublin and who would not otherwise be able to do so. I have looked at it quite imaginatively in that way.
We will get our residential element.
Yes. The first report suggested to me that the building may be costly to adapt and that we will have to unfold in phases.
Another point to bear in mind is that we should not get involved in an arid rural-urban conflict.
Hear, hear.
I intend to look at a museum policy for the country. Making a case for the better location of objects that everyone agrees should be on display for us and for visitors in Dublin does not mean one is depriving another area. In relation to the national strategy for museums, one of the possibilities I am considering is trying to ensure that where I make significant investment in an urban area I will make other investment in a region. I will ensure balances like that. I draw the attention of Deputies to what is being provided for the Hunt Museum in Limerick. I am looking at other developments like that.
In the Programme for Governmentlocal authorities are required to have an arts development plan. I intend to take that very seriously. We have had a mixed experience with the arts officers which the committee raised. Some good enlightened people came forward and established arts officers. They approached this with enthusiasm beyond the bounds of duty but other places did not. A lot depended on the attitude of the head of the local state and the local representatives. That is not satisfactory. There is a need for arts officers. I hope the arts development plan will evolve voluntarily, but if it does not it will be to be compulsory. In that regard there is a hint. Each local authority will be encouraged to appoint an arts officer with requisite staff organised in an arts department. That will turn very quickly from moral suasion to something stronger if it does not happen.
Local authorities will be required to spend 1 per cent of their budgets for capital projects on artistic embellishment. I intend to monitor the implementation of this scheme because I am responsible for that component. The total project might be the responsibility of the Department of the Environment but making sure that the percentage requirement is met is my responsibility. The local authorities might say that they do not know how to build in the 1 per cent but there have been innovative schemes. The case in Cork was mentioned in which they paid someone on a contract basis to enable proposals to be developed. If the local authorities want to go down that road I will see what I can do, in conjunction with my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, to assist them and consider what other arrangements may be necessary.
I was asked a number of specific questions. Deputy Owen asked if the total of 276 included 13 staff from the Office of Public Works; it does. A number of other questions surfaced in that regard.
My function is to draw up policy. What is meant by this is open to interpretation. However, one must evolve a policy. In this regard I refer members to my opening speech today in which I again made the point that the Office of Public Works in this area will operate, in accordance with my programme, the list of priorities that I have drawn up for implementation and the policies that I develop.
Will the Minister have a veto?
I also mentioned in my speech that I recognise that there is a need to update policy in a significant number of areas. That will be the purpose of the policy unit. I am making no attempt to hide the fact that there will always be difficulties in transferring functions from one place to another. One must address the question of whether projects, on which work has commenced, are the reality or threat of the present or the option of the future. It is not easy to resolve these matters but I am anxious to do so.
Members of the Committee were quite right to ask what is meant by heritage. Difficulties could have been avoided if there had been a debate on what constitutes heritage. Britain changed its mind on the definition of heritage in a significant way in 1985. Therefore, there is a need for a debate in which the question of the place of heritage and education must be addressed. Heritage is not uniquely attached to cultural tourism but to education.
I say to those who have been following the conflicts in which I got involved almost within hours of being appointed Minister that every action I have taken has been based on building reconciliation. My view on heritage is simple: it is best negotiated with those whose story is involved, and linked to the education system. In addition, it would be in place for 12 months, it would be in place for 12 months of the year rather than being seen as an unspecified resource to be attached to a tourist opportunity. In Britain people had the courage to accept that perhaps they were going in the wrong direction and that it was time to think again. When the local people know the story of their area, attach it to local institutions and build it into education the quality of the interaction between the visitor and those being visited improves. The views expressed by this committee on these matters in the future will be welcome.
I will follow up the good points made by Deputy Leonard about Coillte and see what I can do to co-ordinate proposals in this regard.
Deputy Flaherty referred to a major find. I have been briefed on this matter and I am aware of the difficulties. At present I am seeking further information from the Office of Public Works. As the Deputy may recall, there are three options. The site is privately owned and this will create some problems. There is also a role for Dublin Corporation which might be investigating the matter. For example, could it not quickly revise its schedule?
One of the options is to cover over the site. When one knows that something extremely valuable exists a car park is never the same. It has also been suggested that the site could be "wrapped" while the third and most expensive option is to develop the site. This may not be viable, however, given that the issue of ownership of the site would have to be addressed. I ask for caution and urge Dublin Corporation to share my concern in seeking more information.
Deputy Doyle referred to the policy on the built environment. The definition of heritage I have given would cover the built environment.
In regard to subhead A.2 I was asked about travel expenses and helicopters. Perhaps my most famous helicopter trip since I became Minister was to the Burren but members will be glad to know that it was organised with great efficiency by the Department of Defence. I was more or less given a lift to the sensitive site by my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Dempsey. I was amazed at the attention this trip received and also at the speed at which details of the conversations made the newspapers. Nonetheless we are pleading for open Government and live in an open society.
I have already answered a Dáil question about those people who use mobile 'phones in my Department. There are three such phones and I suspect that the cost of answering Dáil questions at this stage exceeds their purchase price. As I said in replies to Dáil questions, they are being used by my adviser, Colm Ó Briain, my programme manager, Kevin O'Driscoll and my special adviser on broadcasting in Irish, Pádraig Ó Ciardha. Having regard to the fact that I am very gateful to have the benefit of their advice and that, together with the officials of my Department, they have made so much possible I thought it would be useful if I could speak to them on the 'phone. They also have access to other services and facilities available in my Department, including health, safety and sanitary facilities.
Mobile 'phones are to be banned in Leinster House.
I was also asked a question about the large cost of telephone calls. The reason for this is that a new system has been installed in my new headquarters. Dún Aimhirgin on Mespil Road.
On Mespil Road?
The Deputy missed my explanation of Dún Aimhirgin. Members, and Deputy Bell in particular, will be glad to know that in designing the building I took advice on how to make the building suitable for the handicapped. I have made space available so that women with children, for example, will be facilitated. I have also tried to make it accessible to the blind and others.
Are we talking about the old Department of Labour?
The Deputy may visit me some time.
I will, I just want to know where it is on Mespil Road.
The Deputy will find my office on the third floor. I should say to Deputy Bell that I intend to instruct the Arts Council that before it provides capital grants it should consider the question of access. I will also have the question of workshops examined. As the Deputy suggested, it should not fall between two stools and I will see to it that someone takes responsibility for such a good scheme.
I was asked questions in relation to my visit to Millstreet where I visited the art exhibition, a very good one, including a particularly wonderful painting by Tim Goulding from west Cork. As the committee will know, I gave £20,000 towards the event. I should like to think that some of that money will go towards the organisers' costs. They made their case very strongly to me when I spoke to them between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock in the morning; the lateness of the hour did not diminish their case.
Increased the intensity of the argument.
I was asked about the Cultural Relations Committee which, as Members will know, is located in the Department of Foreign Affairs.
It is embalmed in the Department.
They have a very specific mandate, yet they have a very limited budget. Their terms of reference, combined with their budget, would not constitute, an adequate way of talking about an international dimension to our cultural policy. I am examining other initiatives. The future of the Cultural Relations Committee is a matter for further discussion but I wish them well in what they are doing. It should be remembered that they are operating within a limited agenda and I have great sympathy regarding the choices they have to make. In relation to our international cultural policy, we are preparing for a major exhibition in Paris in 1996. This is being organised by a committee in my Department, in conjunction with a committee from the French Government in Paris. It will include an exhibition on contemporary Ireland. We are doing that ourselves. Obviously, we realise that is outside the scope of that committee. In the future it might well be a case of integrating their activities with those of my Department.
That would be the correct way.
I would welcome responsibility for libraries. I am personally very committed to the role of the library, which is a very important institute in history, inculcating democracy and participation. It is available to the elderly, unemployed people and so on. It is a major agency of literacy and participation.
The poor man's university is the public library.
I will examine ways in which my Department may interact with libraries. Next autumn we may be ready to launch a major programme celebrating the value of reading and the book. In doing so we shall be co-operating with the libraries. There should be an interaction on the proposals between my Department and the libraries.
I share Deputy Costello's and other Members' views about the manner in which buildings, at week-ends, suddenly seem to disappear. People have expressed considerable anxiety, asking who can act quickly in this respect. I will investigate these matters with the Office of Public Works, ascertaining whether some fast action can be taken. I do not think it is accidental that long week-ends have been particularly destructive in so many instances vis-�-vis our heritage.
I might make some comment on our waterways. It would be my hope that, when we come to usage of Structural Funds, the canals will be included since they are very important. I have prepared some proposals on the development of our inland waterways and canals. What is fascinating is their job creation potential. For example, when one looks at the pattern of canals one might well ask what would be the cost of bringing an industrial job to the areas through which they flow. Yet if one refurbishes these, turning people's gaze back to inland waterways, encouraging traffic on them, one ends up with an ecologically friendly, attractive form of tourism, rich in job creation. Many projects have been brought to a particular point but not completed. I am closely examining all of these proposals.
Deputy Davern mentioned young artists having display places in local authority museums. When preparing their development plans, I ask local authorities to take into account what Deputy Davern has said. I have already examined the provision of spaces in relation to the capital aspect of my structural programme.
I was delighted to note Members have so much enthusiasm for the Collins Barracks initiative. Let them not be frightened by it. Rural/urban divisions have no significance; we are constantly moving between both regions now. One of the greatest attractions for me was the idea of a place to which people could travel by way of public transport, having a number of institutions available to them for visits without cluttering up the place with traffic. That would be a very good proposal but we shall not implement it at the cost of the regions or of rural development. I hope to be able to address these issues.
Amateur drama is really a matter for the Arts Council, one I discussed with them recently. Deputy Quill asked about the 1 per cent scheme on which my thinking is that it will be made mandatory and in respect of which I will have consultation. I do not like the idea of regulation but if one has a public policy which is being blocked through some kind of dilatory response or whatever, then it is necessary that one act in the public interest——
It is, and the result will reward the action taken.
In relation to the specific question of the National Museum, the funding mentioned is for the National Museum in Kildare Street; it will not be frittered away in additional expenditure required in relation to the relocation proposals or whatever. What is mentioned in the Estimate refers to the National Museum, as it is, and does not address the issue of making more space available for display. Let us be quite clear about it: if there are to be more things put on display, one must face the relocation question.
I was asked about the National Heritage Council. I have committed myself — and have begun the process of consultation with staff and others — to putting the museums on a modern basis, the same as the National Heritage Council, introducing a new structure. That is not by way of imposing anything on them but rather giving them a structure suitable up to the end of this century rather than the 1877 Board of Visitors' structure which obtains at present. I shall consult widely on it and will devise what I hope will be a structure that will afford them both a distance from me and resources, with responsibility, when I predict it will take off. I see my role as developing a National Museum strategy which will enable our common heritage to be available to the greatest number of our people.
I might draw the attention of the committee to the fact that we are very much behind our timetable.
Can we proceed to complete Vote 42, subhead E?
I have one question to raise on subhead E which one of my colleagues was interested in pursuing. Could the Minister make clear that the requirement to qualify for a grant the building of a new house in the Gaeltacht is that the household be Irish-speaking? Is that an absolute rule? Would he say how it is applied?
It is statutorily defined; it is stipulated in statute.
There was another question I should have answered relating to "bóithre aise". I am endeavouring to ascertain how a local authority might match the spending of that money so that it would be expended in the most sensible way possible in the counties involved.
On subhead F.1 — Roads — I am reluctant to be over-critical of the Minister. We have yet to ascertain how this budget will be administered for 1993. I have a reply to a parliamentary question tabled by my colleague, Deputy McCormack, on 25 February last. My colleague, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, also raised this point in her opening address. This question relates to the allocation from the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht for roads in the Gaeltacht. To say the least, I am concerned about the inequitable manner in which it has been distributed. Out of a total of £368,000, last year the then Minister of State, Deputy Pat Gallagher, allocated a total of £158,000 to Donegal and £83,000 to Galway — the present Minister's constituency — but it was well endowed with ministerial voices around the Cabinet in the previous administration. A sum of £35,000 was allocated to Kerry and the meagre sum of £18,000 to Cork. This lengthy reply from the Department indicates the exact beneficiaries in each area. Out of the hundreds of beneficiaries I can only locate three from County Cork, a community project in Kilnamartyra and the other two were individuals, whose names I am sure are registered in some office in Mount Street, not our party head-quarters.
I am concerned that in the past this particular subhead was used as a political slush fund. Will the Minister take this opportunity to outline clearly and precisely how he intends to allocate these moneys in future? Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that the Minister allocates the moneys to the local authorities through the local improvement schemes with specific instructions that they are used in areas in the Gaeltacht drawn from a list of priorities based on engineering and local requirements. There is a school of thought that believes that next to the Sacred Heart one needed a picture of de Valera to benefit from these moneys. I would not like to see a situation develop that on one side of the Sacred Heart there would be a picture of de Valera and on the other a picture in homage to the Labour Party. I am sure that is not the way the Minister will administer these funds in future. I certainly believe there was political interference in the administration of this funding in the past and, therefore, I would like the Minister to outline clearly how he proposes to allocate moneys in future.
This funding has tremendous potential to improve the infrastructure in local Gaeltacht areas. I can instance one example in my own constituency — the Gaeltacht of Ballyvourney and Ballingeary is the national primary route N22 and, to the credit of all concerned, it has a very good record of established successful businesses under Údarás na Gaeltachta. However, in the Ballingeary Gaeltacht we have very severe difficulties in attracting industrial enterprises to the vacant premises held by Údarás na Gaeltachta because of the poor infrastructure in the area. If some of the substantial moneys from this subhead were allocated to improve the roads, particularly from Ballingeary to Inchigeelagh and onwards to Macroom, it would be of significant benefit.
I would like to add a further point, which might be outside the remit of the Minister's Department but I ask him to keep a watching brief on Cork County Council's proposals to bypass the villages of Ballyvourney and Ballingeary which are on the national primary route, N22. This is one of the best stretches of the N22 road and it is a ridiculous proposal to bypass the twin villages when the roads on either side desperately need investment and improvement. As it is the jewel in the crown, not only in the Munster Gaeltacht, I would be very disappointed if the Minister took a back seat, so to speak, and allowed these villages to be bypassed and put off the map in terms of road development.
We now come to subhead F.5. Hallaí agus Coláistí Gaeilge.
It is ironic that the meánscoil on Inis Oírr prepares pupils only up to junior certificate level and that they must then transfer to the mainland to complete the senior cycle. I understand that the provision of the junior cycle on the island is at risk and that there is a threat to the very existence of the meanscoil. It would be a great tragedy if that happened. In this subhead there is a reference to summer language schools attracting youngsters to the island and it would be ironic if we could not maintain a fully fledged second level school on the island. I would like to see the Minister addressing the situation by attracting sufficient students from the mainland to provide both the junior and senior cycle in the second level school on the island. That would be of enormous benefit to the community as well as being of tremendous support to the Irish language.
The Minister may well be aware of Coláiste Íosagáin in Ballyvourney. In its previous existence in the early days of the State it was a teacher training college which then became a De La Salle boarding school. This huge building is rapidly becoming a eyesore in the middle of the villages of Ballyvourney and Ballingeary. Although the building is now in private ownership, it does not play an integral part in the plans of the person who acquired it. Will the Minister's Department investigate the possibility of acquiring this property with a view to developing it for the promotion of the Irish language, in view of its previous life as a centre of educational excellence?
We now come to subhead G. Scéimeanna Cultúrtha agus Sóislialta.
Ba mhaith liom a fháil amach cad é atá i gceist i G, mar shampla, mar a bhfuil £2 mhilliún luaite, agus i F6 maidir le Miscellaneous Facilities agus Cultural and Social Schemes.
The Minister said the information was no longer accurate as there was a change in the scheme. Will he give some indication of the changes to which he referred?
Later.
There is great dissatisfaction with the daily and the annual grants which have remained relatively unchanged. We are very interested in hearing the changes the Minister is making.
We now come to subhead G.3. Tréimhseachain Ghaeilge agus nuachtáin le nuacht reatha i nGaeilge.
Will the Minister list the seven periodicals supported by his Department?
We now come to subhead I.1. Údarás na Gaeltachta.
Is any change envisaged in the role of Údarás na Gaeltachta in light of changes in structures affecing the IDA and the establishment of county enterprise boards? What type of interaction is envisaged between the new agencies? Is he concerned about the duplicity and the confusion which may exist and affect industrial development agencies? In the context of the Ballingeary Gaeltacht can the Minister give thought and consideration to the problem of attracting investment into a number of vacant factory premises which exist in that area?
The Minister made some comments earlier in relation to job creation in the Gaeltacht areas. Is it not true that in some areas there has been a reduction in the number of jobs? What new initiatives is the Minister hoping to see in Gaeltacht areas? Is the Minister planning to hold the Údarás elections in conjunction with the European elections next year?
On subhead L — Payment to An Post for collection of broadcasting licence fees — I should like to avail of this opportunity to refer to the broadcasting issue. In his contribution the Minister indicated his commitment to Teilifís na Gaeltachta. Can I take it that the Labour Party Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht will have a commitment to an independent television station? Does he see it as an additional important element in the cultural life of the country or would he be opposed to independent television?
The Minister said earlier it was his intention that Teilifís na Gaeltachta would be based in Galway. May I ask him what plans, if any, he has for regional studios in the outlying Gaeltacht areas to accommodate the broadest possible participation from individual Gaeltacht areas in Teilifís na Gaeltachta?
On subheads K and L can the Minister clarify the collection costs incurred by Radio Teilifís Éireann for broadcasting licence fees as well as those incurred by An Post to whom the task is delegated? Second, I should like to refer to an article in the newspapers concerning 180 people who appeared before Justice Delap on foot of a summons for not having licences. According to the newspaper report all those 180 people were unemployed. It cost almost as much as the cost of the licence to summons and bring them before the court. The Justice made some very strong remarks about this procedure which incurred so much cost on the State. He went a step further and suggested that the unemployed should have free licences. That is an interesting suggestion but I am sure there would be some objections. Has the Minister any information on the number of unemployed people, in particular, who do not have television licences, and on the number of people who are unable to pay them? Finally I would ask that the question of bringing people before the court, at enormous expense to another arm of the State, be examined.
As we have to conclude questions by 1 p.m. I suggest we take Votes 43 and 44 and then the Minister can reply in full. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On Vote 44 I should like to refer to the points I made earlier concerning the National Gallery and ask that the Minister address the questions relating to staffing and security generally.
Let us hope he will have time to do so.
On subhead B — Grant under section 5 (1) (a) of the National Lottery Act, 1986 (Grant-in-Aid) (National Lottery Funded) (a) (c) — I regret I have not read the Arts Council's statement referred to by my colleague. I was interested in the Minister's desire to ensure that governmental policy priorities are taken on board and worked out in conjunction with the Arts Council. I see them as having a vital role in an area we all wish to see developed — whether for artistic, community or economic reasons — that is the area of community arts. Dublin Corporation, of which I am a member, always spend a certain amount of its funds on the Municipal Gallery. This is a very fine gallery which suffers a similar fate as the National Gallery, or perhaps even to a greater extent, where between 20 per cent and 25 per cent only of its collection is on display at present. We are engaged in resolving that issue and may need some national assistance. An attractive option is available. On top of that we spent our Arts Act grant. We have appointed an arts officer and we are reviewing how we will spend that money in a more creative way. It is still a very small amount of money to spend on the arts and we will rely on the Arts Council to develop that area. Can the Minister ensure in his discussions with the Arts Council that due attention is given to priorities in spending and support?
I should like to raise with the Minister the question of funding by the Arts Council to the Abbey Theatre. In the past I have had meetings with various people in the Abbey Theatre concerning touring outside the capital city. Has the Minister had representations from the Abbey Theatre seeking extra funding for touring? If they are to tour outside the city they will require extra funding. In the past number of years the theatre has staged a number of one person shows. The reason given for not touring outside the city is that, first, it is very expensive to take a large group around the country and, second, there are very few suitable premises. I do not think it is true that there are no suitable premises but I would like to hear the Minister's comments. There is a number of suitable premises for holding Abbey productions throughout the country but the major problem is that no specific funding for touring has been provided in the allocation to the Abbey Theatre. Can the Minister respond to that particular query?
Can the Minister tell us the proportion of National Lottery funding which goes to arts and culture? There is obviously a widespread feeling that the amount is not adequate and we are hoping that Structural Funds will become available for development in this area. The original intention of the lottery was that it would be available for arts and culture to a far greater extent than it has been. I would ask the Minister to clarify what his intentions and hopes are in that regard.
Cloífidh mé leis an teorainn. Ar an gcéad dul síos, maidir le ceist na mbóithre, ba í an tsuim airgid a bhí faoi chaibidil ná thart ar £380,000 a chaitheadh ar bhóithre áise, mar shampla. Bhí sé, ar bhealach, i gcomhréir le daonra na nGaeltachtaíéagsúla, ach glacaim leis go bhfuil míshásamh ann toisc gur caitheadh an chuid is mó de i nDún na nGall agus go mb'fhéidir nach bhfuil an coibhneas cuí ann de réir na suimeanna atá luaite ag Teachtaíéagsúla. I am looking at the matter of expenditure on roads. The sum involved is £380,000 and individual sums range from £1,000 to £10,000 with an average of £1,500 though some were for £700 and £800.
There are two principles. I had already said, before the Deputy raised the issue, that I was anxious that where possible this responsibility would be integrated into local spending. At the same time I am anxious to retain some discretion for my Department. I also need assurances in relation to expenditure in the Gaeltacht. Certainly there are ways in which the operation of the scheme can be improved and made more transparent. This is my first few months operating in Roinn na Gaeltachta and the last thing I would want to do is use the money other than in a publicly transparent way. If that means giving away some discretion, so be it but I want to look at the scheme properly. I know what is behind the Deputy's question. There were questions put down on this matter during all the administrations. I am examining the scheme. I am looking at the local authority dimension. At the same time I am anxious to ensure that discretion remains with my Department. I agree that it does reflect the Gaeltacht population to some extent but that does not answer the question, and I am not attempting to suggest that it does. The figures I have given are for 1992.
Regarding the Deputy's question on the by-pass I will examine the matter and see what representations are appropriate.
The Deputy raised another question later. I would be interested in hearing the response of the local community and of the local authority to his suggestion. If they wish to communicate with me on that point I will see what might or might not be appropriate. Obviously I cannot make a commitment at this stage.
That is on Coláiste Íosagáin?
Yes.
In relation to Deputy Costello's point about the school at Inis Oírr of course I am sympathetic to this school and I am very familiar with the case. In one of my rare attempts to take a holiday I spoke in that school to a group who had just arrived, I am very anxious to assist them. As a practical expression of that, my Department, through Bord na Gaeilge, facilitated scholarships to enable the numbers to be built up. We will certainly be disposed to assist as much as we can.
In relation to miscellaneous expenditure which was raised by Deputy Kitt, most of the grants under this subhead are concerned with projects providing recreational facilities such as playing fields, tennis and basketball courts. Having regard to the location of the Gaeltacht areas, the sites in many instances are difficult terrain and are therefore difficult to develop. This results in projects running into a number of years and that is why there is expenditure like this.
Let me say as well on this matter that there is a point to which I am anxious to direct attention, and that is that very often there is need for recreational and summer facilities for children of the Gaeltacht areas. That is a very important concept to bear in mind. We are sending children to the Gaeltacht to learn Irish, but we have children of families in the Gaeltacht who would welcome the opportunity of attending camps in their own environment. It would be a perverse policy to have to tell them that their only opportunity in that respect is in the Gaeltacht but that is the position. This is something I am looking at because children are children and our policy should be consistent.
Coláiste Íosagáin could be made available to such children.
If we could arrange to have all the buildings transferred it might work. I was asked specifically about the operation in the changes in the £10 scheme. It has been charged to the household now. From the beginning of this school year the grant will be focused on a household. The figure for the household will be £200, this will help enormously. There is another side to it in that there is more flexibility in the definition of a household. As Deputy Fitzgerald said, the scheme was unrevised for a long time.
In relation to Údarás na Gaeltachta, I met Údarás na Gaeltachta. I had a very fruitful meeting recently as well with the trade union which represents middle management and clerical grades in Údarás. In fact, Údarás had not been met by a Minister of the Gaeltacht for a number of years. I took the opportunity of talking to Údarás about their plans and I suggested that if they wanted changes in the 1979 Act they should prepare them and I would be sympathetic if the changes were necessary to make it sharp in relation to its development functions.
I also took the opportunity of discussing with the staff of Údarás, when I met them through their union, plans I have in relation to the development of the Gaeltacht. They are a very important group. It is very important for these State agencies that we talk not just to the top but to the workers in order to make them aware of development priorities. They are the people who are, in the end, given the task of carrying out these things. They are as important as the Údarás members and we should respect that.
I drew the attention of the Committee — and Deputy Fitzgerald and others touched on it — to the fact that one creates nearly 1,000 jobs and loses nearly as many, so there is very little net increase. I did not attempt to hide that because when I was over there I often pointed this out. I put that into my statement because when I met Údarás and others I stressed that defending jobs is as important as creating them and I am looking at new forms of linkage. Even in the midst of the currency crisis I suggested that any companies in the Gaeltacht that were in difficulties would have ready assistance from my Department. Some were assisted in relation to particular difficulties that they had, both directly and indirectly. I am looking at how we can create new linkages that will sustain jobs. The net jobs gain is unsatisfactory.
I also intend to review the whole strategy right into the autumn because it is time to focus on specific areas. One of the areas relates to my proposals in regard to film and the substructure of Teilifís na Gaeilge, which automatically links with other things. That will assist a number of groups, many of which are in the Cork and Kerry Gaeltacht.
On the question of regional studios, I have established Coiste Banatha and I will be announcing early next week the Coiste Techniúil. I want to hear their reports but I am not prejudging anything. I accept that we need regional studios and it is a matter of the way it is done. If it is to have national coverage it must have facilities in the major centres of population. We are addressing this issue, and how it might be implemented is part of the terms of reference of the Coiste Teicniúil.
In regard to Judge Delap's innovative suggestion about free television licences, the cost of free television licences is a matter for the Department of Social Welfare. I welcome the change in the system whereby certain social welfare recipients will now receive a free television licence for a colour television. It is appropriate that those paying back into the grant in aid for the black and white licence should pay for the colour one. I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Woods, on his achievement in that area and if he wishes to consider Judge Delap's proposal, I will be delighted to have discussions with him. I do not wish to be flippant about a matter of great distress for many people who are facing prosecution. In many cases, proceeding with prosecution may not be the correct way forward and it certainly should not be done on the basis of computer identification. Perhaps people's circumstances should be examined. I appeal to those who are in such difficulties to come forward and explain their case because there are many ways in which they might be assisted. Many voluntary and State agencies could assist them in their difficulties.
Could I remind the Minister that he will have five minutes at the end of the concluding statements.
I will finish this section by naming the seven periodicals subsidised: Comhar, Feasta, Agus, An Gael Óg, An Timire, An tUltach agus An Sagari.
I am not neglecting the staffing and security areas. In Vote 43, for example, I allocated £133,000 for contract staff in order to address this problem and I will keep that under review. I launched the youths and arts programme and I am familiar with Deputy Flaherty's arguments.
The Abbey Theatre has many problems and is an important national institution. In my discussions with the Arts Council I will examine its touring dimension and Deputy Fitzgerald can be assured that I have made a point about the proportion of lottery funding which should be allocated to my Department. How much was projected for the Irish language and culture? Like my counterpart in Great Britain with responsibility for heritage matters, if I had responsibility for sport I would probably be entitled to claim the entire lottery.
To what better use could it be put?
The Minister would look well in a blue shirt.
It is not satisfactory that lottery funds should be substituted for basic funding in regard to arts, culture and the Gaeltacht. In the Arts Council at present, approximately half its funding comes from the national lottery and half from the State. We must ensure that lottery funds are not used as substitute funding. They should be deemed as additional funding
I thank the Chairman for chairing this meeting and the Minister and his staff for coming here. I thank the staff for the useful background information that has been circulated. Perhaps next year they might supply more detail in regard to policy statements, the priorities of the various national institutions and, if possible, details in regard to community co-operatives and so on. However, I congratulate the staff on the work they have done for this committee meeting.
This committee has provided an excellent opportunity to hear the views of Deputies. Many people would like to see the arts and culture flourish and our heritage and built environment protected. Such people will be encouraged by this debate, which has been a useful opportunity to state the concerns of Deputies, the policies we would like to see developed in the various areas. An interesting discussion has taken place on a number of issues. There should be more access to, and participation in, the arts by as many people as possible. That raises many issues in regard to the balance which must be sought between protecting our national institutions and the development of culture within the regions.
This should not be an arid urban/rural debate. We should be concerned about developing policies which address both urban and rural issues. The protection and development of our national institutions is vital. We are not spending as much money on arts and culture as other countries who can afford to, but I hope there will be an increase in the amount of money allocated to this area in the future.
The question regarding national lottery funds are fundamental and require future discussion. Another area which needs to be addressed is that of the proportion of Structural Funds which needs to be allocated to this area in the coming years. This is a unique opportunity to set in place a type of cultural infrastructure. Deputy Quill eloquently referred to the physical infrastructure. The cultural infrastructure is crucial to the quality of life of all our citizens and its discussion deserves a central place in the debates of this House. I welcome the fact that the Department recognise that.
The role of arts and culture in the area of education is important. As a number of Deputies stated this has not been sufficiently addressed up to now. There is great scope for ensuring that children have access to our culture and language so that they have a real sense of the activities taking place at present throughout the country. The level of those activities is remarkable having regard to the fragmented policies which have been underpinning them in the past number of years. The types of policies which are needed to bring the arts and culture to a new era have been referred to today. The commitment is present on all sides of the House but detailed planning, development work and funding are required. The difficulties cannot be underestimated given the particular economic circumstances facing us at present. This is a difficult time to be undertaking such a task, but the discussion this morning has been a useful step on that road. I thank the Minister for his openness in responding to the topics discussed here this morning.
I thank the Minister also for his openness and willingness to take on board the general thrust of the discussion this morning. That underlines the value of the committee system. This has been one of the most lively and interesting debates in which I have taken part in my six years in this House and it endorses the wisdom of adopting the committee system.
I would not wish to leave this meeting having given the impression that I was attempting to create an arid, barren or even a very productive debate about developments in rural areas as against those in the capital city. That would not reflect what I wanted to say as I do not consider the two areas to be mutually exclusive.
The Minister should note that in relation to the distribution of Arts Council funds there is a serious funding distribution imbalance between Dublin and the regions. I will produce the figures for the next committee but I am sure the Minister knows them. This matter will have to be addressed and remedied. Membership of the council and the structure of its centralised administration should be reviewed. The consultative process in which it has engaged to date should be reviewed and revised to allow greater democracy in policy making by the Arts Council. I ask the Committee and the Minister to take that on board as it is fundamental to achieving participation in the arts at an even pace throughout the country.
Local authorities have a key role in encouraging participation and access to the arts in their regions. Some local authorities are more effective than others in achieving this. I do not wish to praise my local authority, of which I am a member; I merely make the point that when it was suggested local authorities could allocate 1 per cent of their budgets to encouraging arts and community groups, artistic and theatrical activity in their area, Cork Corporation was one of the first groups to take this idea on board. During the past ten years it has spent 4 to 7 per cent of its budget in this manner. It has allocated some of its meagre budget to art groups and bodies throughout the city and that made a difference to the city.
If it were not for the action of Cork Corporation Cork city would not have an Opera House which is a matter of pride to the people of Cork and indeed, Munster as a whole. There are only two opera houses in this country, one of which was tragically bombed in Belfast yesterday to the shame of those who carried it out and the embarrassment of people. There is now only one opera house located in Cork. Cork Corporation must be given credit for putting up the money and taking the necessary action to enable the opera house continue to function. I do not wish to praise or draw attention to my area, merely to point out what local authorities can do to supplement the work of national Governments, the Arts Council and other funding bodies. Local authorities can serve in many ways as a catalyst or, as Deputy De Rossa said earlier, as the local yeast that helps bring art to the people. In doing so they do great work. By sponsoring and promoting art groups in their area they make it easier for those groups to obtain funding and to bid for funding from the Arts Council. It is important that the Minister seeks to influence every local authority to follow the lead given by Cork Corporation to enable local funding to be made available for the arts.
I do not intend what I said in relation to Collins Barracks to take from the work being done by the Minister at present, and his vision for the development of that area. There are a number of different types of museums which we have not yet begun to develop, for example, we do not have an industrial museum. Dublin city has an industrial history, though it may not be as long or as great as that in other countries who experienced the industrial revolution. We do not have an industrial museum, transport museum, toy museum or fashion museum although there is great scope for their development. I await the Minister's policy paper on museum development.
I wish to make some points that are not strictly relevant to our main discussion. Regarding time limits on speeches, I understood there were guidelines rather than strict times in regard to them. That is the way we should operate, we should not be rigid regarding time slots for speeches when we are in committee.
I am not sure this is the best environment for our committee work. This is a nice Chamber but not quite as nice as the Seanad Chamber. Because of the nature of the business we transact here we tend to be more constrained than we might otherwise be in committee.
The Deputy should try another seat.
When I come into the Chamber I automatically sit here. Perhaps I should sit in the Government Benches where Deputy Bell is sitting. I may sit there at the next Committee.
Like a rotating Taoiseach.
Regarding the location of the Chair, we should recognise that we are a legislative committee of this House and we should not oblige the chairperson to sit anywhere other than where the chairperson would normally sit. It is bringing pomposity to its limits to insist that chairpersons of our committees do not sit in the chair of the Dáil or Seanad. We must come to terms with the fact that we are a society of equals.
During my sojourn in the European Parliament I was a member of a committee. It treats its committees in a very civilised way. Members are offered the choice of tea, coffee, mineral water or orange during the meeting. That practice would be very useful here as these committees tend to sit for three to four hours. A pint of Guinness might be preferable to some people.
Part of our industrial history.
In relation to the discussion, the Minister has announced his intention to re-establish the Film Board. I am not aware of any policy statement in respect of how it intends to operate or what its function will be. The chairperson the Minister has appointed to the Film Board is an excellent choice. Money must be allocated to that area and, perhaps, tax based incentives would be one measure by which this could be achieved. Funds should be made available from State coffers for this area. Emphasis must be put on providing training and facilities for the industry in terms of post-production facilities. It would be a mistake for the film industry to develop its technical work outside this country.
I do not think it is the Minister's intention to see the development of an Irish Hollywood. Successful Irish films have been cinematic expressions of the Irish experience influenced by other experiences. They should be informative and entertaining. We should go down that road rather than trying to fit into some pre-digested formula which would ensure success on the United States or British circuits. Regarding culture and education, it is necessary for our society to address nationalism and its influence in our lives.
In an indirect way the bombing of the Opera House, to which the Deputy referred, is curious in that the headquarters of the Ulster Unionist Party is beside it. It is difficult to know whether the target was the headquarters of the Ulster Unionist Party, the Opera House or, indeed, the Europa Hotel which is on the other corner. It is probably an indication of the kind of arid, meanminded nationalism that feeds the Provisional IRA.
Perverse.
I have no regard for the fact that the Ulster Unionist Party is part of what Ireland stands for and the same applies to the Opera House in Belfast. We need to address the good and bad aspects of nationalism, particularly when we are witnessing a resurgence of what is described these days as ethnic nationalism in other parts of Europe. The schools may have a role but the Minister's Department certainly has a role in that area.
Deputy Quill raised the question of decentralisation of works of art. I would be happy if she would find a place in Cork for the "floosie in the jacuzzi".
We have our standards in Cork, too.
I am not a connoisseur of art or sculpture but from the day that statue was unveiled it sent shivers up my spine, and not pleasant ones.
She is not the Deputy's type of vestal virgin.
I prefer them with hair on their head.
The Deputy has had six minutes; he must conclude.
I will conclude quickly by moving on to proposals which I would like the Minister to consider. One of these is the possibility of establishing a performing arts board or agency which will seek to alllocate funding to oversee the whole area of the theatre and not just the Abbey, which is obviously an important part of our cultural heritage and infrastructure. There are many other fine theatres which need to be developed. We must also develop a policy providing access for people to the theatre and including a strong educational component. Much fine work is done by small groups who bring theatre to schools and that is an area which would be well worth developing. Not only would it introduce young people to theatre and the performing arts but it would also be educational.
I would ask the Deputy to conclude.
I will conclude but I emphasised earlier that I thought we were operating——
Only up to the final speakers but we must conclude at 1.30 because we have much business to do.
I object to the Deputy seeking to extend the time.
I would ask Deputy De Rossa to conclude.
I do not want to argue with Deputy Leonard. I do not know why he is angry but I am not aware we adopted a schedule at the beginning of this meeting. I will raise the matter on the next occasion.
We adopted the schedule at the meeting last week.
It is unfortunate that this kind of debate can be restricted in this way. I have one final point to make, if I may be permitted to do so by Deputy Leonard. In regard to the question of policy planning——
The Deputy will play by the rules like everybody else.
——it would seem to me if the policy planning unit is to be effective it must identify what needs to be done and how much needs to be done globally. It must also provide plans to ensure that those who are engaged in an area can earn a living wage which will keep body and soul together, and I mean that in every sense. They must also address the question of access and participation which is the key to the whole area.
I have addressed many of the issues already, which enables me to remain within my time allocation.
First, may I thank the Deputies who have contributed from the different parties and who have offered support. I was very moved by Deputy Fitzgerald's quotation earlier of the view of the Department of Finance in 1937. It is a matter of the deepest reflection for me as to the extent to which it has changed. I may need and will appreciate the support of all Deputies for the advancement and funding of the policies we have discussed today.
In reply to a question from Deputy Flaherty, I have no idealogical opposition to independent television. My attitude towards independent film makers is an indication of that. Many Deputies raised the issue of participation and access. Deputies are entitled to be aware of my thinking on these matters. We must make choices which will become accentuated in the next decade and will be fought out in different ways as to whether our version of culture is a democratic or elitist one. Whether it is democratic and internationalist or elitist and isolationist we now have the capacity, through the use of satellites and other forms of communication, to have contact with each other. This will give us a clear choice whether we have passive or active populations on the planet in terms of cultural policy. I am following a theory of democratic participation within a cultural space rather than any elitist or private version. Within that democratic theory of the cultural space I regard access to the arts and culture as a matter of right.
That enables me to come to the question of education. If it is a matter of right we must have adequate provision for the arts in education. To answer the question as to how I see this I will be consulting with my colleague, the Minister for Education, but I can tell Deputies what I have told others. My submissions and my work in this area will be under the heading "creativity in education" and within creativity, cultural policy and within that, arts strategy. I believe this is the right way to proceed because one can get two quite separate approaches yet again and people who are spokespersons must advert to this. If creativity is defined socially, one is accepting the implication of right and democratic culture. If creativity is defined privately one is going in the direction of elitism and of purchasing access to cultural products outside of the school and outside of the workplace.
Many people have stressed — and rightly so — the issues of access and participation. Participation is an obvious extension of the philosophy I have described. The question is raised that one's theory of culture is less to do with geography than with all citizens having access. We must be careful about that. All children should have the right to develop their creativity. There is no point in saying that it is satisfactory, because it is not. In the absence of creativity schools were built with floors that could not be danced on, fixed walls that could not be moved for a performance and so on. It inculcated so many different things, and access to the arts or what I call child improvement sessions, had to be purchased on the open market after the school day. This involved an army of mostly women who acted as taxi drivers to take their children to fiddle, flute and piano lessons in towns and cities in rural areas where such facilities existed.
That is true.
We must all agree that that is wrong and unacceptable. We must ensure that, in regard to matter of right, we do not have the appalling legacy of patriarchy or exclusion. I will have regard to the gender balance in everything I do in this area.
We also need to be careful about the age issue. I have listened with great care to the cases which have been made about people who are in specific age categories. We have to be very careful to ensure that all age categories have access to culture. This is the best way to proceed if we do not want to create new problems.
I take Deputy De Rossa's point very seriously. I hope to be able to announce the members of the Irish Film Board within a matter of days. When I meet the board I will make a policy statement, which I will make public. Advertisements will shortly be placed in newspapers inviting applications for projects. There will be a dedicated fund, so to speak, for projects. It may be possible for me to indicate the general profile of the funding when I publish the report of the working group on films. Projects will be subjected to both creative and commercial vetting in regard to funding. In addition, I am making arrangements for the independent film sector under the Broad-casting Bill, which I think will be of great advantage to it.
Changes have also been made to section 35 of the Finance Bill. I am very grateful to the Minister for Finance for responding to my request in this regard. Perhaps the most important change is the one which will enable large investments to be made in a single year in order to get major projects moving. That is one end of the market. It is also proposed that individuals may make an investment of £25,000 per year. Therefore, one has to do two things: first, build on what already exists but which was not funded and, second, create an environment for the production of films. I have looked at the Structural Funds in terms of the film industry's requirements. I want to ensure funding for film making and training.
As I said, some of my projects may not come to fruition, but this will not be due to any lack of endeavour by me. It is my intention to not only to put all the necessary infrastructure for a film industry in place but also to address the issue of training and to move towards the establishment of a film school. I will be formulating more proposals in this regard in the coming months. I want all of the pieces of the jigsaw to be put together.
Many members have referred to those wonderful people — I wish to salute them — who, in the absence of funding, took initiatives themselves. I am thinking of the enlightened parents, managers of schools and teachers who invited artists to come into their schools. Recently I attended an exhibition in a school by a young man who had worked with the students. I also attended an exhibition in a school in Dundrum the night before last. The atmosphere in these schools is a great example to all of us who sit in chambers like this. When one visits these schools one can see the pride of the parents, the good relationship between teachers and their students and the brightness of the school.
We should not be negative and think about how much we have lost by not having made such creativity part of the educational programme. Rather we should think about what we can still do if we make creativity part of the school curriculum and link it with education. Regardless of whether one is employed or unemployed, this is the way to proceed. The unemployed should also have access to culture. We do not have to wait for the economy to recover for this to happen. If one invests in culture, one will help to eliminate racism and anti-immigrant feeling. People who lose their jobs should not necessarily lose participation in this valuable area of culture.
Ba mhaith liom m'fhíorbhuíochas a ghabháil leat féin agus le gach ball den choiste, ní amháin as a gcuid óráidí ach freisin as fiúntas na moltaíéagsúla a chuir siad faoi bhráid an choiste. Déanfaidh mé mo sheacht ndícheall an oiread agus is féidir a chur chun cinn.
That concludes the Committee's consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. I thank the Minister, his officials and the members of the Committee for their valuable and constructive contributions to the debate.
The Select Committee adjourned at 1.40 p.m.
