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Select Committee on Social Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1997

SECTION 17.

I move amendment No.135:

In page 16, lines 10 to 18, to delete subsection (1) and substitute the following:

"(1) There shall be a standing Board of Visitors established in each of the constituent universities of the National University of Ireland, Dublin City University and the University of Limerick. Such Boards of Visitors shall be appointed by the Government and shall consist of three persons, of whom at least one shall be a past or present justice of the High Court. Any member of the university shall have the right of access to the Board of Visitors in a manner laid down by university statute.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 136:

In page 16, lines 10 to 18, to delete subsection (1) and substitute the following:

"(1) There shall be established a standing Board of Visitors established in each of Dublin City University, the University of Limerick, and the constituent universities. Such Board shall consist of members appointed by the Government, including not less than two present or former judges of the High Court. Any member of the University shall have a right of access to a Visitor in accordance with the procedure laid down by university statute.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 137:

In page 16, lines 23 to 25, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) The Board of Visitors shall exercise the functions of an Inspector and an Ombudsman.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 138:

In page 16, lines 23 to 25, to delete subsection (3).

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 17, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

This section deals with a visitor and we have received some comments on this recently from University College Galway. They feel that the section is fundamentally flawed in that although the term "visitor" is being used, in essence what we are talking about is an inspector. The role of the inspector is not in line with the traditional understanding of a visitor's jurisdiction or with the operation of a visitor system within our universities since their foundation. For example, they have made the point that the jurisdiction of the visitor in a university is never extended to persons who are not members of the university corporation. Consequently, a Minister prosecuting a complaint of illegal behaviour against a university has no standing in relation to availing of a domestic tribunal within a university. Are we looking at a situation similar to that which obtained in Letterkenny Regional Technical College? Is section 17 really about creating a mechanism whereby the Government can appoint an inspector to deal with a governing authority of a university which the Government of the day believes may have been guilty of unbecoming conduct or which may be in breach of laws, statutes or ordinances applicable to the university? The Government will take the initiative in section 17(1) and I quote:

Where the Minister is of the opinion that there are reasonable grounds for contending that the functions of a university are being performed in a manner which prima facie constitutes a breach of the laws, statutes or ordinances applicable to the university, the Minister may, after first advising the governing authority of his or her opinion and considering any explanation given in response, and with the concurrence of the Government, request the Visitor to the university to inquire into any matter giving rise to the Minister’s opinion.

If we are talking about appointing an inspector similar to what happened in Letterkenny regional technical college, it represents a fundamental shift in the relationship between the State and universities.

Essentially, we are creating a legal mechanism whereby the Minister for Education of the day can intervene in the internal affairs of a university, albeit in the context of certain issues that would give the Minister cause for concern. The Minister has spoken about the need for autonomy and academic freedom but what tends to happen when legislative mechanisms such as this are put in place is that future Governments and Ministers, irrespective of party political affiliations, may use those mechanisms with increasing regularity. The critical space between a university and the State should be preserved. Deputy Keogh's and Deputy Coughlan's amendments, as well as my own, sought to copperfasten the existing concept of the visitor's jurisdiction within a university. In other words, it has been a facility in Trinity College, for example, where members of the university be they academic staff, students or employees had access to an independent body, a body that would listen to their complaints and concerns. It was a matter of internal university governance. In many respects the visitors adopted the role of ombudsman and that role could be played in the future. There is a necessity for such a body and for such a function.

Section 17 has used the term "visitor" and its traditional concept to mask and camouflage what is, in essence, a mechanism to facilitate Government inspection of universities. That is a view which is strongly held by University College Galway and one which it has articulated cogently. I sympathise with that view. This entire area has not been adequately clarified. There should be a clear framework within a university whereby the members of the university have a mechanism through which to appeal or complain to the authorities and to have disputes reconciled or resolved. That should be made clear within the university system and it should be within the internal system of governance in a university.

Governments should stand back and refrain from unduly interfering in the situation. We must remember that when we draw up legislation, it may not be interpreted in the way in which we intended it to be. The way in which this legislation may be interpreted might be very different ten years from now. We must remember that we are putting in place legislation which will govern universities for the next 20 to 30 years. The Minister may not intend this section to be used extensively but, though we cannot predict the future, once the mechanism is in place, it can be invoked by future Ministers. That has the potential to create problems and the Bill invokes an incorrect use of the term "visitor" as it has been traditionally understood within the universities.

I do not know if the Minister has received representations from University College Galway but the points they raise are very important. As Deputy Martin pointed out, its view is that there would be a major shift in the relationship between the State and the universities. The submission from UCG believes this would allow the Minister to intervene regularly in the internal workings of the university through the appointment of what it views as an inspector who would report to the Minister. Even the threat of such an appointment gives rise to concern. We must be extremely mindful of the views of the university on this.

Throughout the debate on Committee Stage we have been trying to achieve a better balance in the Bill. When we commenced the Bill lacked balance. It is very important that the Minister should reflect on this section and the worries that have been expressed to us by University College Galway. The visitor has no power to adjudicate on disputes between the university and persons who are not members of the body corporate of the university. That is an important point. I ask the Minister to give us her reflections on this issue.

Section 17 gives the Government power to appoint a visitor to a university and to ask the visitor to inquire into aspects of the university's operation where there has been a breach by the university of the laws, ordinances or statutes governing it. Deputy Martin asked, quite rightly, if it was similar to the way in which the Minister was able to move swiftly to put in place a visitor in Letterkenny regional technical college. It would not move as swiftly. Under this legislation, "visitor" is defined as a High Court judge which is an important point. The visitor has to be satisfied that there is a need to take on the role so that is a second requirement which is different to merely appointing somebody to go in next Monday, for example. I know that one of the NUI universities has communicated with Deputies but Deputy Keogh may like to know that the governing body of the NUI is aware of these proposals and has not raised the specific difficulties that one university has. The concept of term visitors is one with a long tradition. It goes back to the NUI Charter of 1908 which, in British parlance, states that "we have reserved to ourselves, our heirs and successors" that there might be a visitor or visitors of the university. That bestows a right from time to time "as we see fit, to direct the inspection of the university, the constituent colleges, their buildings, laboratories and general equipment". The NUI Charter continues in that vein.

This is much more specific than the charter's general visitation clause. The charters of the NUI and Trinity College make provision for visitors with various functions. The provisions of this section are modelled on the NUI visitor. I consider the concept of visitor is one which can usefully be extended to those universities that do not have one. I refer back to the charter of the NUI and one of the colleges the Deputy quoted.

Because of the crucial and well ordained role that universities play, we must have a mechanism in place so that if there are serious concerns about the performance of a university's functions the matter can be investigated. We are giving an importance to the visitor who must be of the opinion that the performance of the university's functions has to be investigated.

I am aware of the concern of the university community that power of visitation should be exercised only when absolutely necessary and that the scope for arbitrationists should be restricted. It is in the interests both of the university and of society and for this reason there are a number of safeguards. I refer Members to the safeguards that are spelled out in the Bill.

Coming back to Deputy Martin's first question, there has to be prima facie evidence of a breach by a university of the laws, ordinances or statutes governing it. The Minister must give the university an opportunity to make its case and the Minister must seek the agreement of Government on the issue. When appointed, the first responsibility of a visitor will be to review the situation to decide whether there are reasonable grounds to proceed with the visitation. On the arrival of the visitor appointed by the High Court, their first duty — the Minister having obtained the agreement of the Government to appoint the visitor — will be to establish that there are reasonable grounds to proceed with the visitation. I am satisfied with the safeguards that are in place.

When we consider that the investment in the university sector this year alone is £228 million, it is reasonable for the Government to have a mechanism in place, although it may not be an easy one, where there are serious concerns. Given the tenure of the legislation and how the framework will be in place for autonomy and transparency, I cannot imagine how something of such concern could arise, but if there is——

The Minister cannot think of anything that could arise?

Where there is an investment of £228 million a year I think I should not close off the option. However, the option is one where we have to be specific about the person appointed. Once appointed by the Government, the first duty of that visitor is to review the situation and decide whether there are reasonable grounds to proceed with the visitation. I believe there are enough protections in place while still reserving the right to appoint a visitor, given the massive investment by the State in this sector.

I thank the Minister for her reply. I wanted to ask what was the motivation behind this section but the Minister has outlined it. It is basically inspectorial. The Minister has been specific in envisaging what terrible things might happen to justify the appointment of an inspector. Nonetheless, she is preserving for the State and the Government the legal mechanism whereby somebody could be appointed.

Section 17 deals with a prima facie case where there has been a breach of the law, statutes or ordinance applicable to the university. That is fairly wide ranging in terms of the grounds on which somebody could be appointed. It could relate to personnel issues, financial matters or decisions taken by the governing authority. Essentially, as things stand, the universities depend on good relations with the State for funding.

One of my great concerns, since becoming Opposition spokesperson on education, is the degree to which many people involved in education are so dependent on the Department that often they are reluctant to speak out on issues. That has been a regrettable experience of mine. While I am not saying this is the reality, there is a perception among many people in education that they should keep their counsel to themselves. That is a viewpoint.

They do not share it with you?

They share it with me privately, but if you try to get certain people on the record they will say "We do not want to run foul of the Department". That is the reality and nobody should pretend it does not exist.

As regards the recent dispute in Athlone concerning the leaving certificate applied, it is interesting to note that while there are many angry school principals, very few of them will go on radio or television to say this is a disgrace because they do not want to incur the wrath of the Department. The problem is that the State is becoming involved in appointing an inspector to a university. We need to preserve the independence of universities as far as possible. I suspect this section is part of the overall thrust of the original Bill in which the State was determined to have control over universities.

In any relationship between the Government and the universities a degree of trust is paramount. There comes a point when you have to trust the institutions. The State will not be in a position to run the institutions so it should trust them. If we create elaborate mechanisms for the appointment of governing bodies, the election of chairpersons and the appointment of chief executive officers, there comes a point when we should leave the electoral and administrative system to the universities alone. We already have safeguards in terms of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In addition, the chief officer will be the Accounting Officer who will have to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts to answer for the financial management of the university. Those are wide ranging powers. Likewise, the Higher Education Authority under the 1971 Act and under this Bill will have considerable powers and controls over its relationship with universities.

In this section dealing with visitation we are looking at a control and inspectorial mechanism, whereas we should be trying to enhance the traditional concept of the visitor system within the universities and give it a new legal status within the Bill.

From what I hear from the Minister, the concerns of UCG are both valid and accurate because the Minister has more or less confirmed their concerns. They have identified correctly what she is doing. They say the idea of the State having an inspectorial role, albeit where there is a major breach of the law or rules of the university, constitutes a fundamental interruption and interference with the relationship between the university and the State. I think they are right. Just because they might be alone does not mean that their point is not valid. Who will actually determine whether a breach has occurred?

The Deputy's interpretation of my comments is extraordinary. He is interpreting them in a way I never intended. This is a massive investment by the State. We are talking about something being done if there has been a breach of the law or ordinances and the Deputy is saying that even if that is so, we should not have the right to send in a visitor. The visitor concept is being developed from the NUI Charter that where there are specific and serious, not trivial, concerns——

Such as?

Does the Deputy want me to speculate on a massive financial scandal or one related to academic excellence? It has to be of grave concern or involve breaking the law——

That is not specified.

It is. That is why we recommend that the person be a High Court Judge. The first task of the Minister is to secure the permission of the Government to appoint the judge. The Deputy is not being mischievous in his interpretation but the seriousness of the reason for the appointment of the High Court judge has been misrepresented. The first task of the judge is to review the situation and decide whether there are reasonable grounds to proceed with the visitation.

We are talking about the ultimate protection against the gravest breaches of the law. Given the healthy relationship between the Department, the Government and the universities, I cannot envisage such a situation occurring. However, these colleges are almost 100 per cent dependent on the State for funding. Given that level of funding, I should not close off the option, in the gravest situations, of appointing somebody of the calibre of a High Court Judge to carry out a review. That is what I am seeking to do. This provision is most specific and is a protection against the ultimate scandal.

It is hard to imagine the ultimate scandal. I will, as the Deputy recommended, reread my CP Snow novels, as I do during the summer——

Will the Minister have time?

I always make time. An investment of £228 million is a wonderful investment by the State. However, given the size of the investment, the framework legislation being proposed for developing the 1908 concept strengthens it to deal with such issues at High Court Judge level. There is a role for Government and a role for the judge; I have confidence that if the framework were ever needed it will be there. However, as in other aspects of the Bill, I do not expect the ultimate scandal to occur.

Question put and declared carried.
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