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SELECT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2008

International Agreements: Motion.

I welcome the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, and her officials to today's meeting on the referred motion regarding a proposal for approval of the terms of the agreement on social security between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the Republic of Korea.

On behalf of the select committee, I express my condolences to the family of the late Deputy Séamus Brennan, who was a former Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

I ask the Minister to brief the committee on the motion, following which members may ask questions. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I too express sympathy at the death of my good friend and predecessor, Séamus Brennan. When I was appointed to this role, I sent him a text to the effect that I would look forward to receiving his advice. He immediately texted back offering to meet me but, unfortunately, that was not to be. It is a sad loss for Ann and the family, his constituents and everybody who has been interested in the political life of this country.

I thank the select committee for the invitation to discuss the terms of the draft agreement on social security with the Republic of Korea. Ireland has bilateral agreements on social security with a number of countries. Most of these date from the early 1990s and are with countries which have significant numbers of Irish emigrants, including the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. In these cases the most valuable aspect is the provision for aggregation of periods that are reckonable for pension purposes where a person has been employed in both countries under both jurisdictions but has an inadequate record under one system to qualify for a pension. When a pension is payable on the combined record, the amount of Irish pension payable is calculated in proportion to the period of employment in Ireland vis-à-vis the combined period. An example of this is included at the bottom of the first page of the briefing note which my Department has provided for the select committee.

The negotiation of this agreement with Korea was initiated at the latter's request in the context of our mutual interest in developing trade and facilitating economic investment by businesses in both countries. In addition to ensuring pension cover for workers moving between the two countries, the agreement allows posted workers, such as managers or advisors sent to work in branch offices or subsidiary companies, to remain under the social insurance system of their sending country for up to five years. This agreement on social security will therefore add to Ireland's attractiveness for inward investment from Korea, which is a major player in Asia, especially in information technology. Similarly, it will also protect the continuity of cover for Irish personnel posted temporarily to Korea by Irish employers.

The reciprocal provisions of the agreement are similar to those in our existing agreements with other countries and follow a pattern widely used internationally. The benefits covered are all contributory and comprise State pensions, including transition pensions, widow's and widower's pensions, guardian's payments and bereavement grants. The agreement involves a charge on public funds because Irish benefits arising from its application will be paid out of the social insurance fund, so its terms must be approved by Dáil Éireann in accordance with the provisions of Article 29.5.2° of the Constitution. However, the number of pension claims arising from the agreement is expected to be very small and the cost to the Exchequer is expected to be minimal.

The agreement will become operative on the first day of the third month following the month in which written notification is exchanged by both parties to the effect that all domestic requirements have been fulfilled. This will be done when the terms of the agreement have been approved by both Parliaments and the necessary administrative arrangements, such as translation of forms, are in place. The agreement will then be brought into force by means of ministerial order.

I am accompanied today by the very knowledgeable Ms Anne McManus and Mr. Philip Melville of the EU-intemational unit of my Department. We will be happy to address any questions members may have on the motion.

I join in the expressions of sympathy to the family of Séamus Brennan, including his wife, Ann, and his sons and daughters. I have only known him for the six years I have been in the House but he was a thorough gentleman. He was well able to disarm us during interviews because he normally agreed with us even though we were saying the opposite to him. He was a lovely man who will be missed by everybody.

In regard to the motion before us, does the Minister know the number of Irish people who will be affected or of Korean nationals living in Ireland? I note that the agreement was initiated by Korea. Are similar agreements being negotiated with other countries and how do we decide on whether to initiate them? Are posted workers excluded from the provisions of the agreement once the five-year period has expired? The agreement addresses rights and entitlements but should fraud prevention measures not be included in agreements of this type?

I wish to be associated with the welcome extended to the Minister. Like my colleagues, the news of Seámus Brennan's passing upset and shocked me. He represented part of my constituency prior to my becoming a Deputy and he was well regarded in my area. As I said in an interview this morning, we often exchanged views but of all the things I remember him for, I best recall the delivery of the Luas to Tallaght. In terms of his ministerial experience, he made a meaningful contribution during his short period as Minister for Social and Family Affairs. Like other colleagues, I extend my deep sympathy to his wife, Ann, and children. His daughter has been working with the council in Tallaght.

I was intrigued when the Minister stated the agreement would become operative on the first day of the third month following the month in which written notification was exchanged by both parties to the effect that all domestic requirements had been fulfilled. I wonder if somebody in the international section takes credit for that amazing information.

I welcome the agreement and I am happy to support the motion. I was surprised when I read the notification that the agreement was with the Republic of Korea but obviously there are good reasons for it. Does the Department have plans to enter into such agreements with other countries? The Minister will recall that I often made the point when she was Minister for Education and Science that the local school in Springfield in Tallaght, where I live, had pupils of 44 nationalities in attendance. Therefore, is there scope to enter into agreements with other countries, although I am not suggesting such agreements should be entered into? Are the Minister's officials, whom I welcome, working on similar agreements with other countries?

I, too, extend my sympathy to the family of the late Deputy Séamus Brennan. He was a fine politician. My thoughts are with his wife, Ann, and family at this time.

On the motion, how many such agreements are there with other countries? What benefits will accrue to Irish citizens from this agreement?

I welcome the Minister and wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the family of the late Deputy Séamus Brennan. All new Deputies looked on him as a man of great experience. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

Any bilateral agreement is welcome in the context of the opportunities available abroad for Irish citizens. I realise Korea is well recognised as an economic power house in Asia and has been hugely successful in recent years. Are there statistics for the number of Irish people who may be doing business in Korea? Likewise, are there statistics for the number of Koreans in Ireland?

It is estimated that there are approximately 1,000 Korean nationals in Ireland, most of whom are students. There are approximately 250 employed here. There are about 300 to 400 Irish nationals working in Korea. It is envisaged that because of the technology issue, there will be a greater transfer of people to and from Korea. Irish people working in Korea tend to be short-term language teachers or persons seeking experience abroad. Apparently, two out of every three people in bilateral agreement countries who qualify for an Irish pension have their entitlement based on their Irish record and do not depend on the years of service spent in other countries. In the future, with greater mobility of young people to and from Korea, we may find that people will use their years of service spent here. For the present, we do not anticipate huge numbers of claims. It is expected that the number to benefit under this agreement with Korea is unlikely to exceed 50 at any one time and the annual cost is unlikely to exceed €75,000. It is not much in terms of the numbers or amount of money involved but companies will be able to say to their staff that they can combine years of service. If it exceeds five years, the facility can be extended by agreement between the two countries.

The initiative was taken by the Koreans who were anxious to have such an agreement in place. We are negotiating a similar agreement with Japan, a matter I discussed with the Japanese ambassador to Ireland last week. Because of the mutual trade and business agreements between the two countries, it is one we would like to bring to a head. There is no other agreement in hand. The existing agreements are with Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United States, the United Kingdom, which covers the Isle of Man and the Channel islands, the European Union, the EEA and Switzerland. There is a separate understanding with Quebec within Canada because it operates a separate pension scheme. EU legislation would cover arrangements with many other countries.

Deputy Enright asked about fraud. Section 13 of the agreement deals with the sharing of information, under which the issue of fraud would be covered.

Will it apply retrospectively?

If one makes a claim today, having worked for the past five years, one's contributions in those five years will be taken into account.

If one spent a year in Korea three years ago, as is the case with many teachers, when can one make his or her claim?

They will make a claim if there is a gap in their Irish contribution record and at the time they claim a pension. They will get the benefit of the contributions made.

It is slightly irrelevant to those starting work if they only go for a short period at the beginning of their career.

Most would have enough contributions here to receive a full pension. It is really of benefit to those who might not have enough contributions.

The clerk has circulated a draft report. Is it agreed that the report, with the names of the members who spoke at the meeting, be laid before the Dáil? Agreed.

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