SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT (Select Sub-Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government) debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 2011

Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Revised)

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Penrose and O'Dowd. This is their first occasion to appear before the sub-committee. I also welcome the following officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government: Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General; Ms Mary Moylan, assistant secretary; Mr. Michael Layde, assistant secretary; Ms Maria Graham, principal officer; Ms Finola Moylette, principal officer; Ms Paula O'Reilly, assistant principal officer; and Ms Sorcha Byrne, executive officer.

I remind members that the former Minister for Finance requested the Estimates debates to have a particular focus on the outputs achieved for moneys voted. In other words, in our considerations we should take account of what has been achieved and not just the moneys being spent. Both issues are important. We have a duty to establish that moneys are being allocated and spent wisely and prudently but it is also essential that we are fully aware of the results achieved and their impact on provision and availability of services throughout Ireland.

I propose that we begin the meeting with an opening statement from the Minister and Ministers of State, followed by opening statements from Opposition members. I will call Deputies Niall Collins, Catherine Murphy and Stanley in that order before calling Deputies Bannon and Humphreys. Other Deputies may make their contributions afterwards if they so wish. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank the Chairman and committee for the opportunity to discuss the Revised Estimates I look forward to working with the committee on matters relating to the environment, community and local government.

It is appropriate that we are addressing my Department's expenditure Estimate for 2011 at our first meeting. It covers a wide range of activities and I look forward to our discussion. I am accompanied by the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, who has responsibility for housing and planning and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, who has responsibility for NewERA policies and will speak on the water policy elements of the initiative.

These are indeed changing and challenging times and the new ministerial team will work constructively with the committee structure in the coming period. Reflecting the transfers of function announced on the formation of the Government, the Estimate for my Department includes provision for supporting communities and promoting rural development, which were previously the responsibility of the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. Heritage spending is now the responsibility of the new Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

The overriding aim of the Government's economic and budgetary strategy is to return the economy to sustainable employment growth and ensure jobs for our citizens. A key condition for doing this is to restore order to the public finances in full compliance with the EU-IMF programme of financial assistance. Substantial efforts are being made across government in this regard and are reflected in the Estimate before us. Departments are working on reviews of capital and current spending that will give options for substantial savings and form the basis of Government decisions in the autumn. The committee can be under no illusion that tough decisions lie ahead for us all and we cannot and will not shy away from them.

The Vote for the Department in 2011 amounts to almost €1.61 billion, a substantial sum. Members may be assured that we will work to maximise efficiency and secure the best value for our citizens from that resource. The Estimate before the sub-committee is complemented by a briefing note we have prepared on the 2011 Estimate as a whole. I propose to comment on aspects of the Estimate and I will be happy to deal with these or other issues, as required, in our later general discussion.

Under local government finance-efficiency, in 2011, it is estimated that local authorities will invest €2.2 billion in essential local infrastructure, and a further €4.8 billion is budgeted for the provision of local services. With its democratic mandate and broad range of responsibilities, the sector is pivotal to promoting and facilitating economic development and providing vital public services at local level. Income levels for local authorities have continued to fall in 2011, reflecting the ongoing impact of the downturn on all income sources received centrally and obtained locally.

The local government fund is not immune to the general downturn in the economy. The fund will receive an Exchequer contribution of €164 million in 2011 together with estimated proceeds of motor taxation of €953 million. Allocations from the local government fund to local authorities have been reduced by 9.2% on average for 2011, following a reduction of 3.9% on average in 2010. I acknowledge the efforts made by the local government sector to moderate demands on the commercial sector in the form of rates and charges. Despite a range of pressures on programme funding, I am pleased that the national average rate on valuation has been contained this year by a further 0.6%.

The non-principal private residence charge, which was introduced in 2009, broadens the revenue base of local authorities by levying a charge on certain domestic dwellings. The charge has put in place a new and relatively stable local source of funding. It represents an important step change in how local government is financed, with the moneys generated being retained by the relevant local authority and spent on local services. The yield from the charge was €68 million in 2009, €66 million in 2010 and a similar amount is anticipated from this source in 2011.

The EU-IMF programme of financial support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012. In light of the complex issues involved, such a tax, requiring a comprehensive property valuation system, would take time to introduce and, accordingly, to meet the requirements in the EU-IMF programme, I have indicated my intention to introduce a household charge in 2012 and I will shortly bring proposals to Government.

The local government efficiency review group reviewed the cost base, expenditure and numbers of staff employed in the sector, including a review of the effectiveness of programmes and proposals to enhance efficiencies. The group acknowledged that savings of more than €300 million had been achieved by the sector since 2008. It identified further savings totalling €511 million, comprising €346 million in efficiency savings and a further €165 million in revenue raising recommendations, which have short-term, medium-term and long-term horizons for delivery purposes.

I have established an implementation group to advance relevant recommendations contained in the efficiency review group report, initially those related to shared services, procurement, ICT, audit, etc., to realise further savings. Other substantive recommendations in the report will need to be considered in order that we can be sure that the sector operates with maximum efficiency and effectiveness and makes the fullest contribution to national recovery.

My Department is responsible for a range of programmes to support communities, including the local and community development programme, which tackles poverty and social exclusion in disadvantaged communities; the RAPID programme, which tackles the spatial concentration of poverty and social exclusion in designated areas; and the Rural Development Programme 2007-2013 which implements measures to improve the quality of life in rural areas and facilitate the diversification of the rural economy. Axes 3 and 4 of the RDP, part of the Common Agricultural Policy of the EU and co-funded at 55% , has an allocation of €62 million in 2011 and is playing and will continue to play a significant role in addressing employment and quality of life issues in rural Ireland.

Two main priorities of this programme fit well into the overall ethos of my Department. These are to promote and facilitate the diversification of the rural economy and to improve the quality of life in rural areas. The programme is designed to address directly many of the challenges facing rural communities, including the need to increase economic activity and stimulate job creation, improve access to basic services for rural dwellers and encourage rural tourism based on sustainable development of natural resources.

The local and community development programme aims to tackle poverty and social exclusion through partnership and constructive engagement between Government and its agencies and people in disadvantaged communities. It is a key support to the Government's job initiative, as it provides supports to increase access to formal and informal education, recreational and cultural development activities and resources and to increase people's work readiness and employment prospects. I am pleased, therefore, that we have been able to secure €63 million for the programme in 2011. This allocation will allow for the participation of more than 5,000 individuals in accredited education-labour market training, the support of 1,500 in employment and 3,000 in self-employment.

The programme for Government has committed to reviewing the delivery of services at local level with a view to reducing duplication, providing more efficient and effective local services, and ensuring greater democratic accountability in decision-making. An important means of achieving this is through greater alignment of local government and community functions at a strategic, operational and administrative level. Work has commenced in the Department on developing proposals for the introduction of more coherent service delivery of services at local level.

Ensuring that we have a modern, adequately resourced water services sector which will manage and deliver critical infrastructure to support economic recovery and employment creation, is a key priority for this Government. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, will address this matter later. An allocation €435 million is being provided from the Exchequer this year to fund the ongoing investment in water services infrastructure. Of the investment in 2011, €350 million has been allocated to the Water Services Investment Programme 2010-2012. This investment is required not only to expand infrastructural capacity, but also to upgrade the water supply distribution network to tackle uneconomic levels of leakage and improve operational efficiency. Good progress is being made with 100 contracts under way. The funding in 2011 will allow for a further 60 major public water services contracts to commence construction this year. While the funding available in 2011 is lower than in 2010 , more activity can be achieved, by comparison to previous years, as a result of the more competitive tendering market. In the case of the rural water programme, the main objective of expenditure continues to be the addressing of drinking water quality issues in the group water sector and on smaller public schemes.

The programme for Government commits to the development of a coherent national waste policy, adhering to the waste hierarchy, which will aim to minimise waste disposal in landfill and maximise recovery. I am prioritising this commitment, as I am anxious to provide early regulatory certainty, in the form of both policy and legislation, to ensure the necessary actions and investments are progressed to achieve those aims. I have signed regulations, which transpose the waste framework directive into Irish law, giving statutory recognition to the waste hierarchy. I have also made regulations streamlining and consolidating how we administer hazardous waste movements within the State, delivering an efficiency dividend committed to in my Department's Croke Park action plan.

During the Second Stage debate on the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in the Dáil, I outlined the guiding principles which will inform the waste policy development process. These principles will serve to ensure that future waste policy will be designed to minimise the volumes of waste generated and to extract the maximum value from the waste that arises; founded on a firm, evidence-based understanding of the many scientific, economic and social issues involved; and designed to facilitate necessary investment in infrastructure, within an appropriately regulated waste market framework. I look forward to engaging with colleagues and the range of interests in the waste sector in the development of this policy framework. As part of this process I have also published a discussion document on household waste collection to help inform the development of policy. Next week we will have the opportunity to discuss the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which will deal with the landfill levy.

As members will be well aware, Ireland was slower than many other member states in modernising our policy and legislative frameworks governing the waste sector. While we now have a strong regulatory regime and programme of enforcement in place, we still find ourselves dealing with a range of legacy issues. My Department has provided funding of €93.5 million to date for a variety of legacy activities associated with the remediation of illegal sites, the remediation of former landfills, the repatriation of illegal waste deposited in Northern Ireland and a range of other actions required to respond fully to a significant judgment against Ireland by the European Court of Justice in 2005. It is not possible to be definitive on the matter and it is clear that further significant expenditure in this area will need to be made in the years ahead, including keeping funding in place for 120 waste-enforcement staff.

I have touched on a number of areas in the Department's broad remit with particular emphasis on those with significant financial provisions in 2011 and I ask the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Dowd and Penrose, to complement what I have said regarding their areas of responsibility. I would be happy to deal with matters members may wish to raise during the meeting.

Minister of State at the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Fergus O’Dowd)

Ós seo an chéad lá dom bheith ar an taobh seo den tábla, mar bhall den Rialtas, ba mhaith liom mo chéad fhocail a rá in nGaeilge. Tá job mór le déanamh agam ó thaobh uisce sa tír seo de. An rud atá bunaithe sa chlár Rialtais ná go mbeimíd ag féachaint conas mar is féidir uisce a sholáthar do mhuintir na hÉireann i slí nua agus go sábhalfar airgead chomh maith. The main job I have sitting on this side of the House for the first time is to represent the Government rather than the Opposition. When I was sitting on the Opposition side I tried to ask the Ministers searching and probing questions, and I hope to be able to answer such questions later today.

My main responsibility as Minister of State in this Department is for water. The programme for Government made a commitment to establish a State-owned Irish water company to be called Irish Water. The creation of Irish Water will provide an opportunity for efficiencies, improve service delivery and cost savings in the delivery of water services. The independent assessment will allow for a full analysis of the service delivery in Ireland and will examine the organisational structure for Irish water as well as how to implement those changes.

The agreement with the EU and IMF requires an independent assessment to be carried out. A team of consultants led by PricewaterhouseCoopers has been picked to carry out the assessment which will be completed by the end of October. My job will be to put into effect the recommendations of the analysis if they are accepted by Government. Members may have questions on how it will be implemented, what it will mean for local authority staff, and how efficient and effective can we make the administration of water services in the country. The issues I will be considering will be based on that analysis. The staffing requirements for Irish Water will be based on the outcome of this assessment and the Government decision on the functions assigned to Irish Water. It is not our intention to discard the expertise and knowledge built up in local authorities. On the contrary, we want to ensure that expertise and knowledge are deployed strategically and efficiently to meet the significant challenges facing that sector.

The other issue of concern for everybody is the question of water meters and the programme for their installation. Obviously the Government will decide on that matter. I would be happy to answer questions members may have on the matter during the course of our meeting today.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Willie Penrose)

I am delighted to be here and look forward to working constructively with members of the committee in the months and years ahead. I do not need to remind members about the interesting times in which we live. My own brief of housing and planning could hardly be described as a good news portfolio in the present economic circumstances. I will not use the dreadful phrase "we are where we are", because of course, we are where we were brought to by events that are very well known to everyone. Times are tough as we know and to progress we must of course be pragmatic, but we must also be principled. Pragmatism without principles or indeed the opposite makes for sterile and empty policies.

It goes without saying that now more than ever we need to watch every euro we spend. Working within the constraints of fiscal austerity and a predetermined budget framed by the outgoing Administration, my Department has had to show considerable dexterity to meet the continuing challenges posed in the housing arena within the diminishing resources available to it. Pragmatism alone might save a few cent on our bottom line, but pragmatism without judgment and without compassion will cost us all in the long run. We need to support pragmatism with compassion and with sound judgment if we are to ensure that the needs of the most disadvantaged and underprivileged in our society are protected from the impact of the current economic downturn.

The budgetary allocations we have defined for the current year allocate funds in as fair and efficient a way as is possible. My recent policy statement sets out the strategy which shows the way forward for the coming years. Overall we want to enable all households to access good quality housing appropriate to household circumstances and in their particular community of choice. The allocation of resources within the overall housing Estimate for 2011 is sympathetic with the policy and strategic approach the new policy statement provides.

I wish to comment on some of the main housing provisions for 2011. Ahead of the need to make adjustment in the level of spending under the main housing capital programmes, the social housing investment programme was changing. The move away from traditional housing provision of build and acquisition was initiated by the rental accommodation scheme in 2005 and supplemented by the leasing initiative in early 2009. The rental accommodation scheme since inception in 2005 has delivered almost 18,000 units, with 6,600 of these being provided in 2010. We simply do not have the money to go back to the old way of capitally funded, council-owned social housing. We need to seek new ways of ensuring that we are providing quality housing to those in need. We need to ensure we are doing in it equitably, compassionately and efficiently.

Since its introduction, the leasing initiative has delivered more than 3,000 units to the end of 2010 and has already yielded a further 500 to date in 2011 with a further 2,000 units anticipated. I signalled in my recent policy framework the need to maximise our housing provision by means of all options available to us. RAS and leasing are available and they deliver. The allocation for the current year stands at €125 million for RAS and €23.5 million for leasing. Together, these two delivery modes are expected to yield half of the social housing capacity in 2011. Initial reticence to embrace these delivery vehicles is gradually receding and most stakeholders now accept that they represent an expedient and effective means of tackling growing social housing demand.

However, the social housing book does not end with RAS and leasing. They will play an important role, but the Government is also fully committed to developing other funding mechanisms that will increase the supply of permanent new social housing. Such mechanisms will include options to purchase on lease agreements, build-to-lease, and the sourcing of loan finance by approved housing bodies for construction and acquisition. I hope to soon announce the first project funded in this way, linking up one of the larger housing bodies, high-quality stock held by NAMA and loan finance from the Housing Finance Agency. This sort of approach, in conjunction with a continuing support for special needs provision through the capital assistance scheme for which €90 million has been provided in 2011, will help cement the central role of the voluntary and co-operative housing sector in the period ahead.

In times like these it is easy to focus on our own individual needs and overlook the most vulnerable in our society. The two harsh winters just past have served to remind us of the plight of the homeless and in particular those sleeping rough. It is a testament to local authorities and to the group of community and voluntary agencies who service this area that there were no recorded deaths among the homeless from climactic conditions during this period.

My Department's commitment to this sector is ongoing, as is evidenced from the fact that the funding in 2011, at €53.4 million is only slightly down on the 2010 allocation of €54 million. The programme for Government commits to a review and update of the homelessness strategy - The Way Home: A Strategy to Address Adult Homelessness in Ireland 2008-2013. This review will consider the current demands on existing housing services, and assess how best to provide appropriate levels of service, as well as ensuring effective prevention strategies.

I also anticipate that the new homelessness online data and bed management system, PASS, which became operational in Dublin in early 2011, will be introduced across the country, where appropriate. In addition, the support to live independently, SLI, initiative which facilitates the transition from long-term occupation of emergency homeless facilities to mainstream housing, will continue to be advanced.

Adaptation grants for older people and people with disabilities are vital in enabling the groups at which they are targeted to live independently. Support will be provided to upgrade certain categories of private housing with particular emphasis on those who are most in need including the disabled and the elderly. The allocation of €64 million for this purpose will ensure that the progress made so far will be built upon in 2011.

Regeneration works embarked upon in recent years have had as their goal the replenishing and enhancement of existing housing stock, the revitalisation of the social fabric of communities and the economic improvement of depressed areas. Let no one be in any doubt that the Government remains committed to regeneration. However, the reality is that the private market conditions in which some of these projects were initially conceived have changed radically. The Exchequer will need to play a much larger part than we originally envisaged. This will mean that some of the bells and whistles that may originally have been part of vision statements and master plans may have to wait while the core works are carried out. But the Government will change the lives of households in the regeneration areas for the better.

The total provision for regeneration, remedial works and improvement, including energy efficiency measures, for 2011 is €203 million. This will allow for an investment of almost €122 million in regeneration projects alone, including some €63 million for regeneration projects in Dublin city including former PPPs, inner-city flat complexes and the ongoing completion of the Ballymun regeneration programme. Some €35 million has been allocated to progress the phase 1 implementation in Limerick. The social dividend which will flow from these investments in time, will transform some of the most notoriously failed estates in the country into vibrant, sustainable and more prosperous communities. In addition, improvement and energy efficiency programmes, which have served to maximise the life of the local authority housing stock, will be continued and funded to the tune of €31 million. Besides the obvious boon of adding to the comfort of tenants, the improvement programme supports highly labour-intensive activity, avoids the need to disperse residents to new housing units, and maintains viable sustainable communities.

Circumstances may become more challenging before our resilience and industry begin to reverse the current economic trends. In the meantime, it behoves us to apply ourselves diligently to ensure that as a society our heads do not drop, and central to this is the need to ensure that the sustainability of viable communities is preserved. I believe the funds made available to my Department have been prudently and, more important, compassionately allocated to deliver the greatest possible benefit to those we serve. Pragmatism with principle will continue to be our watchwords. For this reason, I commend the 2011 Estimate and the provisions contained therein.

Chairman

If members wish to comment specifically on any subhead in their opening statements they are as follows: A.1 to A.7 cover administration, B1 to B3 cover housing, C1 covers water services, D1 to D5 cover environment, E1 and E2 cover waste management, F1 to F6 cover local government, G1 to G4 cover supporting communities, H1 to H5 cover planning, I1 to I3 cover rural development, J1 and J2 cover other services and heritage, and K covers appropriations.

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Minister and Ministers of State for their opening statements which were quite informative. I wish them and their officials well in their work. I do not have much to add. It would be helpful if we could have an indication from the Government on the recommendations in the McCarthy report on local government and the delivery of local authority services throughout the country. It is a big area of work in which the committee will want to play a full role. Recently, in the Dail, someone stated the recommendations in the McCarthy report have not yet been adopted as Government policy, but they are very relevant.

The delivery of local authority services must be more streamlined. I will use my part of the country as an example, although I know it is subject to change given the recent announcement on the proposed amalgamation of Limerick city and county councils. Limerick has two local authorities, two development boards, two enterprise boards, three Leader companies and two regeneration agencies. Added to this is the business remit which overlaps with the community remit and involves Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and Shannon Development. If we can move towards the creation of a one-stop shop it will make it more efficient and a value for money driven service for the public whom, ultimately, we are here to serve.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome this opportunity for discussion with the Minister and Ministers of State and thank them for their informative opening remarks. The Minister outlined local government funding and there is still some confusion about the household charge proposed for 2012. Is it the Government's intention to introduce this in 2012? Will there be a sliding scale based on the value of the house or income? Will the charge be in addition to the proposed water charge?

With regard to housing, is it possible to have a breakdown of the headline figures for the amounts allocated for various programmes such as the capital assistance scheme, RAS and leasing? The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, gave some details but I did not catch them all.

The energy efficiency scheme is very good but there are some problems with its implementation with regard to the use of money, which is what we are discussing. Local authorities must improve houses to B rating standard. I know of an empty house which was finished in 2002 and has a reasonable level of insulation. Under the proposed scheme, the local authority will work on the house because it will be able to improve it to B rating standard. I can see the logic of the local officials doing this because B rating must be achieved. However, in a nearby estate, elderly and disabled people and people on low incomes live in houses which have no hope of acquiring a B rating. The houses were built with mass concrete and the Minister of State will be familiar with this, coming from a local authority background. I live in the real world and know we are curtailed in what we can do, but if we wanted to get the best value from a small amount of money and achieve good outcomes for the maximum number of people, we would consider areas such as O'Moore Place in Portlaoise and similar estates in Mullingar, Dublin and other areas. These are the areas where we can achieve the best outcomes from these programmes.

There has always been a problem with circulars being sent to local authority housing department staff but not to members of local authorities. Circulars should be sent to members as well as to staff. I heard about a particular circular in an informal discussion with officials. This circular asks staff to focus on re-lets. The money being provided is very welcome but it is being spent solely on re-lets. The logic is that work cannot be carried out on houses which are occupied. There is no reason occupied houses cannot have cavities filled with installation as it is done externally. Neither is there any reason attic insulation cannot be changed, as in a typical terrace house it can be done in one or two hours. Will the Minister of State examine these issues with regard to value for money?

Some local authorities have substantial funding in their water services capital accounts. Will the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, clarify this? Under the restrictions of the European Growth and Stability Pact, this money cannot be spent. However, water is leaking from the system in these local authority areas. I am familiar with several such cases and I am sure there are others throughout the country.

I understand a semi-State company will be established to deal with water. I and my party have a concern, which I raised briefly during Question Time recently. North of the Border, Northern Ireland Water has caused a huge problem for the Assembly. The Minister of State will be aware that his county had to supply Newry with water during a crisis last year. Our party and other parties in the North have had difficulties trying to deal with this. The centralised body is at one remove from the Government in the North and the Minister at the time and Assembly Members from all parties tried to make representations to the company to have various issues fixed but they had a huge problem. During that time I was a member of a local authority and while there were difficulties with local authorities there was a far better system in operation south of the Border because local authorities had power. They did not have enough resources but they were elected representatives, and the Government, Minister and local authorities here dealt reasonably well with the problem. I am concerned about handing over to much power to a semi-State body which we may not be able to control.

Deputy James Bannon

Like others, I wish to welcome the Minister and Ministers of State to the committee and to compliment them on their informative and interesting opening remarks. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, mentioned our heritage. As we all know, it is not a renewable resource. I welcome the initiative taken by the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, at the OPW in recent days to give free access to heritage sites once per month. This is a positive start to the opening of our heritage to tourists and the public.

When can we expect the publication of the heritage fund (amendment) Bill? Three budgets in the past two years cut the heritage fund by approximately 40%. No other section in the Department got such a fleecing. I would like this issue to be addressed soon.

We all know that the aim of local government is to improve the quality of the environment and people's quality of life. The focus on improving services is important. As the Minister mentioned, local government provides a wide range of services from housing, water, sewerage, planning and fire services, which are important. We must do something to revitalise people's interest in local government. Since the abolition of rates a number of years ago, central government has had too much control over the local government system. Indeed, it controls the main artery of local government, that is, funding. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on the various initiatives local government can take to create funding for the provision of services. He flagged a number of proposals in recent months, but one that did not come from the Minister - it came from another organisation - is that of a charge for inspections of sewerage, septic tanks, etc. Perhaps he will give us an insight into his proposals in this regard.

I served on a local authority for 19 years. All decisions concerning everyday matters should be taken locally and as close as possible to the citizen. This is what local government is all about. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on the legislative reforms he intends to implement or to lay before the House during the coming years. What functions will need to be devolved to local government? Local government has a major role to play in terms of heritage and environmental services. An integrated approach and greater co-ordination at Government level, particularly between Departments and local authorities, are necessary. I would welcome it if the Minister could move in that direction.

The Minister also discussed waste management. A number of years ago, there were eight regional plans for waste management. What is their current position? Are they dead? Regional authorities employed many consultants at the time to prepare the plans.

In the Minister's opening remarks, he referred to €2.2 billion for local and regional roads. This investment is welcome, as they have been neglected in the past decade. The initiative is an important one.

The issue of local improvement schemes, LIS, must be addressed. This relates to situations where, for example, two farm owners reside on a small county road. Additional funding is required, as these schemes have been starved of money for the past decade or so. I will take the local authority with which I am most familiar, my own of Longford County Council, as an example. When I joined the council, approximately £2 million was allocated to LIS, but this amount has been reduced to a couple of hundred thousand euro in recent years. We must reactivate these schemes, as there are people who would take on responsibility for carrying out necessary improvements to roads, etc. if the funding could be reallocated.

The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, has taken the initiative and provided funding for unfinished estates. There are approximately 700 unfinished ghost estates - I hate using that phrase - throughout the country. Substantial funding has been allocated to local authorities to try to deal with and provide services to those estates. Who will take responsibility for the distribution of the funding? Will it be the respective local authority? What role will the developer have? We should be informed and I would welcome it if the Department could provide us with a county-by-county breakdown of properties that have gone into NAMA. In many parts of the country, public representatives are not aware of what properties have gone into NAMA. Perhaps this is something we should know. There should be a list of such properties.

I would appreciate it if the Minister elaborated on his opinions on the various charges he proposes to introduce.

A number of quangos operate in the field of local government under the auspices of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, including wildlife boards, the former heritage service, Dúchas, and so on. Is there any proposal to amalgamate some of these into a smaller number? Perhaps the Minister will give us an insight into his opinions in this regard.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Being down the pecking order on the speaking list is a considerable disadvantage.

Chairman

The joys of being in government.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I welcome the Minister and Ministers of State. I look forward to working with them during the coming five years. I will try not to repeat anything that has already been mentioned. The realignment of local government has been positive so far and I look forward to it being rolled out further. However, some local authorities are disadvantaged because State agencies do not pay them rates. If we are to fund our city regions properly, the funding must take account of this issue.

I will not touch on something that is close to my heart, namely, the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2011, to which the Minister referred, as it will be debated next week. Bord na Móna will appear before the committee shortly to give a presentation. Water security is within the policy remit of the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd. The opportunity presented to the State by having clean, reliable water will be as beneficial as our 12.5% tax rate. If we can properly manage our water system, the potential to attract foreign direct investment to create real, sustainable jobs will be significant. I look forward to working with the Minister on that element. Smart metering is extremely important in the context of water charges and we must get that right. While I do not look forward to every road being dug up to put in meters, if we address this issue in the right manner there will be a positive response from the public, in particular given recent shortages of water in many parts of the country owing to bad weather. People want a clean water supply.

The quick action of the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, in regard to unfinished housing estates is welcome. His reference in his contribution to a social dividend from NAMA in respect of housing, is a positive development. I look forward to exploring with him new models of providing social housing. International trends affect fuel poverty. Given the announcement that Germany is moving away from nuclear energy, the cost of fuel and gas will increase. Addressing this issue in the context of earlier built local authority houses must be a priority because it is the people living in such houses that will be most affected by the increase in the cost of energy. I thank the Minister and Ministers of State for their contributions.

Chairman

As we have heard contributions from a member of each of the different parties and groups, I would like before moving to other members to add a few comments to what has been said.

Under A7, while there has been a cutback or reduction in most areas across all Departments, there has been an increase of 311% in consultancy services. Perhaps some reason could be given for this increase. As Deputy Humphreys stated, there is an EU regulation with regard to the roll-out of VAT at local authority level. How far has this VAT implementation been extended? Currently, local authorities are exempted from charging VAT on services. I am not suggesting that the VAT measure should be extended to every local authority service but what consideration has been given by the Minister to the implementation of VAT at local authority level?

I welcome the provision being introduced by the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, in regard to a purchase programme within the house leasing scheme. Some members, in particular the Minister, Deputy Hogan, when on the opposite side, asked, in the context of the Comptroller and Auditor General having proved that there was no financial merit to the long-term leasing scheme, that it be re-examined in a number of ways. I am glad to see that the purchase option has been included.

Under subhead K, the dormant accounts area has an operational budget of €2 million and costs approximately €900,000 to administrate. If that was a pension scheme, real difficulties would arise. Perhaps the Minister will explain the reason it costs that amount to administer the dormant accounts and what will happen in this regard.

The Estimates set out a programme for insulation works throughout the country. I have discussed this issue with colleagues. I am sure I am not the first Member of the House to state this. Currently, the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Environment, Community and Local Government are dealing with insulation programmes for houses, one for local authority houses and the other for private houses. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, when on the opposite side made the following point in this room a number of years ago. Local authority tenants who would like to avail of the grant are currently prevented from doing so. I believe that the grant should be available to local authority tenants who are prepared to pay a proportion of the cost of insulation. This would result in a two-fold benefit, namely, the local authority tenant would get the work done and there would be a saving to the Exchequer as a result of his or her being in a position to pay towards the cost of that work. I ask that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government communicate with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in regard to the service and achieving this saving. If local authority tenants are only to avail of the insulation programme, they will be waiting forever for it. Many tenants, if they could get the grant, would be willing to pay towards the cost of the work.

On a point raised by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, I hope to invite the Minister to appear before the committee some time in the autumn to speak about the Irish water programme and NewERA programme specifically in relation to water. Much discussion is needed as we embark on this issue and I would like to give members an opportunity to discuss those matters with the Minister.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I thank the Chairman and wish the Minister and Ministers of State well. As Fianna Fáil spokesperson on housing, I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, on his work thus far on ghost estates. I read in the newspaper of FÁS involvement in this area. Perhaps the Minister of State will explain this. The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, also referred in his contribution to the renting of private houses in an effort to deal with the long waiting lists for housing. I read recently a circular from Galway County Council which states that it has 3,000 families on its waiting list in the county and 4,000 on its list in the city. Many of these families are housed in the private rented sector through other schemes such as the rent supplement scheme and so on. The waiting list issue has been ongoing for some time, in particular in Galway city and other cities. Perhaps the Minister of State will set out his plans in this regard. The current situation is disappointing for those families who have been on the waiting list for a long time.

Mention was also made in the circular of the €30,000 household income limit in the context of social housing. Local authorities appear to be encountering difficulty operating this scheme. I thank the Minister and Ministers of States for their work thus far.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I welcome the Minister and Ministers of State to the meeting and thank them for their informative presentations. I have a few questions for the Ministers in regard to local government financing, in particular in respect of the local authorities, with which I am familiar. Some local authorities are experiencing serious difficulties, including the collection of rates given the current financial climate, resulting in their being in dire financial straits. I have been told by councillors from some of the local authorities that there are to be cutbacks in service, which is a matter of huge concern for officials and local public representatives. I would like to know how the Government proposes to bridge the financial gap in some local authorities.

Unfinished estates were mentioned by some of my colleagues. Have all the bonds in relation to the completion of those estates been drawn down, in particular those now in NAMA? Deputy Bannon mentioned he would like to know the position with regard to estates in his constituency. I, too, would like to know about the unfinished estates in my constituency that are in NAMA. I know where they are located but I would like to know what will be done about them in future.

It appears it is departmental policy that leasing houses is the way forward and that no new houses will be built. It is proposed to purchase houses in private estates and to lease them to local authority tenants. The Minister of State mentioned that approximately 2,000 houses will be leased. Will people have an option to purchase these houses over time? The Minister of State also referred to the availability of adaptation grants for disabled and elderly people. I know that such funding, in respect of which there is a huge backlog in my local authority areas, has almost dried up at this stage. Could there be any consideration for what I am sure is a nationwide issue? It must be addressed.

With regard to regeneration, the Minister mentioned the €203 million from last year and work done in Dublin, Limerick and Sligo. I applaud those efforts by the Minister and officials in the completion of that work. There is much confusion with regard to septic tank inspections, with conflicting figures given for costs. It has been put to the media to think of a figure, so I would like some clarification on the issue. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, might address another matter raised on numerous occasions, namely, water metering for private houses and, specifically, the cost and timeframe involved. I thank the delegation for its contribution.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I welcome the Minister and Ministers of State before the committee. They make a formidable front row and I am sure that in the scrum for funding, they will not be found wanting in the Department. I congratulate them and look forward to working with them. I also welcome the officials and thank them for the presentation. This will be a busy committee, taking in many issues, and one of the benefits of being left last to speak is that most of the ground has been covered. I can struggle to pick a few areas that have not been touched.

On the question of waste management and waste management policy, particularly with regard to municipal solid waste, most countries in Europe and even throughout the world are moving to a system of pyrolysis. With a proposal to establish plants in Limerick, Galway and possibly another in Cork or Waterford in the near future, will the Minister outline the Government's policy on waste management? There is much concern regarding incineration and the effects of dioxins. Is the Poolbeg incineration plant to go ahead? The Minister might say that is a matter for Dublin City Council but what is the overarching policy? It was mentioned that there are eight waste management regions in the country but will the Minister outline the Government's policy on pyrolysis? Is there funding to help companies initiate the process in this country, as it has proven successful elsewhere?

There are some excellent programmes run by the Leader initiative, with particular benefits in country areas. Will the Minister or Ministers of State comment on the Tús programme? There seems to be an anomaly regarding people who may apply for positions on the programme, particularly supervisors. For example, if a couple are on jobseeker's allowance, with the woman working, her partner does not even qualify to apply for the Tús programme. In effect, he is a non-entity and is not included as an unemployed person. He is not entitled to apply for the Tús programme. Will the officials or Minister give a commitment to consider whether that problem can be overcome? The scheme has the potential to be outstanding.

There are a number of issues falling under the auspices of local government. Is there a role for town councils? I acknowledge that the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Penrose, gave a very comprehensive report. We could ask many questions about it. Many people express concern to me about approved housing bodies, and there seems to be a view that some of these bodies are building a property portfolio. There is much investment put into these portfolios, with concern in the local communities about the way in which these bodies manage their housing stock. In my area there is much concern about some of the houses operated by Novas. Are these bodies regulated or is there a proposal to regulate or investigate them? Will the Government consider a policy whereby local voluntary housing bodies, if given the same funding as some of those approved housing bodies, would do a much better job? They would involve local people, considerations and issues.

I would not like to leave out the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd. I am sure he is aware of the proposal by Dublin authorities to pump water from Lough Derg. Is that policy being actively considered by the Department? If so, we must take on board the good will of the people in that area. One of the main concerns that could lead to an objection is that the proposal as it currently stands is to pump the water from Lough Derg on the Tipperary and Galway border to a Bord na Móna site in the midlands where treatment will take place. That will leave most of the money and employment in that area and the water would be piped to Dublin. If the water is to be pumped from Lough Derg, the treatment and works should be in the local area rather than elsewhere. That would be partial compensation for the environmental impact on the area.

We have spoken about the leasing of houses, which is welcome to some extent in that it is now possible to gain ownership. In local authority estates, people living next to a house vacated by the council can be annoyed to see the property boarded up. The local authority will do this because there is no capital funding to refurbish the house to a suitable standard for it to be let again. This happens while there are numerous people on the housing lists; it is a two-pronged problem as the houses are idle and neighbours must live beside what have become, in effect, derelict sites. Will the Department consider allocating additional capital funding to local authorities to eliminate the problem and make houses available to the community?

Chairman

Thank you Deputy. Before reverting to the Minister and Ministers of State, I believe Deputy Bannon has a very short and succinct question.

Deputy James Bannon

Thank you Chairman for letting me in again. The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, spoke about the housing adaptation grants and I would appreciate it if he would consider the possibility of a simplified application form for people with disabilities. A medical report must be attached to each of them.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I thank Deputies Collins and Stanley, in particular, as they are the Opposition spokespersons, for their very constructive remarks. We can have regular political debate in the Dáil Chamber but if we are to make any meaningful progress, I would look to the membership of the committee. I look forward to a constructive and open dialogue about where we are going and perhaps we can drill down into policy positions and outcomes that we all want to achieve across a range of programmes.

The principal report dealing with local government efficiency is the McLaughlin report. Four weeks ago I established the local government implementation group under the chairmanship of Mr. McLaughlin to implement the proposals and give me a report in October on where to go from here. I headed him off on the Limerick issue with regard to merging the two local authorities. That decision was based on the Brosnan report, and I hope Mr. Brosnan will be able to continue in a role in Limerick and the mid-west for the purposes of implementing the proposals announced by the Government.

I will have an early statement on local government policy in the autumn based on the principles of devolution of power from central to local government in as much as is possible. In the context of the proposals on charges to be introduced, obviously I would like to see local government retain discretion over that money. In the local government financing debate, there would be a significant amount of initiative for councillors to implement their own priorities in their local areas rather than continuing the current system where a significant amount of funds go to local government with a label on it specifying where and how it should be spent. The greater discretion we have will largely be based around the autonomy on financing of local government. The second home charge was an example of that. It gave an opportunity to local authorities to establish priorities for themselves in the roll-out of some services based on a local source of funding.

I met the representatives of the County and City Managers Association yesterday and indicated to them a number of areas in which I was anxious to see improvements. Performance indicators, efficiencies and more effective delivery are required. Everybody is on the same page in that regard. The McCarthy and McLaughlin reports feed into that. I have not brought the McCarthy report to the Government because I do not believe it is necessary. However, I will use that report to inform myself regarding some aspects of local government policy which I will announce in the autumn.

Deputy Stanley and others mentioned the household charge and the water metering programme. They are two separate charges. The household charge will be introduced in 2012. It will be the precursor to a property tax which we are obliged to introduce in 2014 at the end of the EU-IMF programme. The detail is not finalised or brought to the Government but the intention is to introduce it in January 2012. We will start the roll-out of the water metering programme in January as well. The Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, is working on the consultants' report. There will be an interim report at the end of this month on the form, operation, function and structure of the Irish water entity. He can give the committee more details on that. It is the Government's intention to roll out the water metering programme with a view to having water charges by meter implemented in 2014.

A copy of all circulars to councillors is something I will bring to the attention of the Department's officials. We will do that in so far as we can. Public representatives, where it is appropriate, will be able to get copies of those circulars in addition to the officials of local authorities.

In response to Deputy Bannon, heritage is no longer a function of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is now part of the brief of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan. I cannot tell the Deputy about the heritage (amendment) Bill but I will ask the Minister to convey the up-to-date position on it. I am very conscious of funding for the Heritage Council as it is based in Kilkenny, in my constituency. There has been a significant cut and I agree with the Deputy that it will be difficult for the council to perform its statutory obligations if there is a further cut. I am conscious of that in the context of the Estimates.

I mentioned the devolution of functions and the proper financing of local government. Deputy Coonan asked about town councils. I believe they have a significant role in local government. Certain sharing of services and viability criteria will be required. I do not believe in town councils being in existence for the sake of having them there. I will work with the representative organisations to achieve a balance of criteria that will allow town councils, which are close to the citizens in urban areas in particular, to continue to discharge their function on behalf of the people.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Can we forget about their abolition?

Deputy Phil Hogan

I never mentioned it. I do not know who mentioned it, but I cannot be responsible for that.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I took the opportunity to clear the air.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am glad the air is clear over Tipperary today.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Until September.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I had a meeting with the IFA about septic tanks. Before I attended that meeting I heard on the national radio that an annual charge of €300 was going to be imposed on people for remediation of septic tanks. I do not know where the station got that figure; it certainly did not get it from me or the Department. I have no intention of implementing that regime. If the IFA wishes to implement it, that is fine, but I will not do it. There will be a modest charge for inspection and monitoring of septic tanks to see if they are working properly.

Under the European Court of Justice judgment, we are obliged to implement a regime of monitoring and inspection. The EU brought Ireland to court in 2008. We lost the case and were found to be negligent. Nothing was done by my predecessor to implement that decision. I must do it or we will have to pay €26,000 per day in daily fines until we have it implemented. We have three years to implement the programme. The modest inspection and monitoring charge will be €50 or €100. That is what I have in mind but it will be determined later. I envisage the local authority staff having a role in inspections to ensure the quality of ground water is not contaminated. If improvements must be carried out, the householder will have to do them. Again, they will have three years to do so. Doing that will generate local economic stimulus and it will ensure we comply with the ground water quality directives, as is our obligation. I am glad to clear up that matter.

The regional waste management plans are still in place and still guide regional policy. Obviously, the new policy framework I am bringing forward at the end of the year will supersede the regional waste management plans. Much will depend on whether Dublin City Council and its American partners proceed with the project in the near future. It is a contractual obligation between them and, as Minister, I have no function in it. All I can do is outline Government policy relating to waste. I have transposed the waste directive.

We have a considerable amount of recycling activity and we are promoting that in every way. Packaging levies are being considered to reduce the amount of unnecessary packaging. A policy on producer responsibility requirements on the various stakeholders is under consultation at present. Organisations with an interest in it have an opportunity to make observations and submissions before the closing date, which is shortly, on how we should proceed with producer responsibilities relating to packaging and waste. Ultimately, at the top of the hierarchy, there is waste to energy recovery and other mechanisms for dealing with waste, such as paralysis and gasification. They can be considered in the context of the national waste plan that will be agreed by the Government before the end of the year.

Local and regional roads are a matter for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. There has been a significant improvement in the investment in local and regional roads this year as part of the jobs initiative. I am sure the Minister will face a challenge to maintain that funding in 2012, but members can discuss that with him when he is before the committee.

Deputy James Bannon

It comes under the remit of the environment committee.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The funding for it does not come under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. I could talk about it all day but I cannot do anything about it.

Deputy James Bannon

It is unfortunate. The Minister can make his views known at Cabinet meetings.

Deputy Phil Hogan

They are confidential, as the Deputy knows. An agencies review is being considered in the Department. We went through a period of years where an agency was set up to solve each problem but that is no longer possible financially. It is also no longer appropriate, perhaps. A retrenchment process will take place and I am conducting a detailed examination of all 24 agencies in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to see where they are needed and where they are not. A submission will be made on that to the Government in the next few weeks.

Deputy Niall Collins

Does that include Leader companies?

Deputy Phil Hogan

No, that is a separate issue. I am referring to the direct responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Community development is a new responsibility for the Department, so it will take some time to assess the full picture in that regard. The principled position we have taken is to align the community aspect more closely with local government. We are working on that initially.

The Chairman asked about dormant accounts. We are preparing legislation on dormant accounts and we are very conscious of the administration of that scheme in the context of the money that is available to allocate. Dormant accounts money is part of the general Government debt. Regrettably, I am not yet in a position to identify savings to roll out some of the proposals in the RAPID programmes. About five RAPID programme areas were promised funding last September, but there was no money to give them. We are assessing if we can roll out some of those projects before the end of the year if money becomes available elsewhere. However, the dormant accounts Bill is at the final stages of preparation and will be brought before the Dáil in the autumn.

With regard to consultancy services, a total of €349,000 is provided for in 2011. This provision was increased from the original allocation of €251,000 because it takes account of the community area coming within the remit of the Department. The €125,000 is allocated for the independent review of water pricing in the context of setting up Irish Water. The €100,000 is for the review of Part B of the building regulations. Members will be conscious that many Deputies have concerns about pyrite and controversies about materials in the building area. We will review our building regulations in regard to materials used in buildings. Our climate change obligations will also come into play in terms of how we can "green" some of the materials. We have to spend some money there on expertise which is required to inform us on that. The other is a fairly small amount; these are significant amounts totalling €225,000 of the €251,000 allocated. Some €121,000 has not yet been allocated and we will only allocate it if we have to for the remainder of the year.

Deputy James Bannon

On the amalgamation of agencies or quangos-----

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am not finished. I will come back to the Chairman on VAT at local level as I do not have an answer.

Energy efficiency and the one-stop-shop which includes local authority tenants is something very close to the hearts of the Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, and myself. We would like to see a one-stop-shop for the allocation of these financial supports through local government but it requires Sustainable Energy Ireland, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and ourselves coming to an agreement. That would be ideal and it would include housing stock no matter who is in it, whether local authority or private tenants. We are looking at that and are prepared to have an open mind.

Tús programmes are a matter for the Department of Social Protection, as are supervisors and the difficulties there. However, I will pass on Deputy Coonan's concern to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton.

Deputy Noel Coonan

They are administered by Leader.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I regret to tell the Deputy they are not administered by my Department but by the Department of Social Protection. I will let the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, deal with Lough Derg to Dublin.

I very much agree with Deputy Humphreys on water quality, which is a major issue. It is a finite resource and requires much investment. We have taken it for granted but that is not possible anymore. There would be possible inward investment if we could show, in particular outside the Dublin area, that there was good quality water available, which we are not always able to do. We often lose job opportunities because we are not able to stand up to scrutiny in terms of good quality water, in particular in regard to medical devices businesses which require excellent water. Intel, for example, requires a top quality water supply and it would like to expand if Kildare County Council and the Department could show it we have water quality and quantity. We are certainly conscious of that.

The issue of State agencies and rating them is a major issue for the Dublin local authorities. That recommendation was made by the McLaughlin report. I am very conscious of it and I will make decisions on that before the Estimates process in 2012.

Deputy Willie Penrose

I thank members for their detailed questions. I do not believe all divine wisdom lies in the Custom House. I would be very open to hearing from colleagues as to how things can be improved on the behalf of the wider public as opposed to the political bandwagons we carry. I look forward to constructive engagement. Just because an idea comes from a member of an Opposition party does not mean I will not value and see how it could be incorporated to improve the overall thrust of what we are trying to do as a country.

Some €125 million has been allocated for RAS, €23.5 million for leasing, €64 million for adaptation grants and €31 million for retrofitting. They are the broader allocations about which Deputy Stanley wanted to find out. The Minister and myself are very eager that we have a one-stop-shop in terms of housing and that people would have access to circulars. I hope to minimise the number of circulars because that is important. We should not have a top down view of local government and should ensure a bottom up approach where possible. We should trust the initiative and ingenuity of local government as well. I have great faith in it. It is a great bastion of local democracy where locally elected councillors can have an input into policy. I have a view on that and I suppose the Deputy will not find that strange having been a member of a local authority.

One of our focuses is on relets to maximise turnover. Deputy Stanley probably knows about the value for money report issued on Monday. That is a major issue and it was a very important report. There are approximately 126,000 or 127,000 local authority houses with 23,000 houses provided by approved housing bodies. We cannot but acknowledge that approved housing bodies have played a very significant role in terms of social housing provision. They will probably play an increased role, and I will return to that. Deputy Coonan asked a very appropriate question and I know he has a particular interest in this issue.

Local authorities have been asked to assess their occupied houses in the context of building energy requirements, insulation and so on. That is important and they will do that. I would like to think that housing requiring major immediate work will also be addressed in that context. It is important we continue to focus on the housing stock and upgrade it if at all possible in that context.

The recent value for money report issued on Monday will assist everybody in helping to manage the programmes. I hope that will be focused on. There were a number of recommendations in terms of how we can ensure a quicker turnaround. It is very varied in that it is from six to eight weeks to perhaps 35 to 38 weeks but on average, the time is 16.5 to 17 weeks.

The last count of vacant units or "voids" as they are called - I did not learn that word until I was appointed to the Department - was in March 2008 and there were approximately 58,000. There are 100,000 people in receipt of rent supplement. The next count commenced on 1 April and will probably come through in the next month or so. There is likely to be 100,000 on the local authority housing list.

As Deputy Kitt said, I certainly widened the criteria for getting a local authority house. I believe it should be widened in order to have sustainable communities and not just one cohort. The Deputy mentioned net income. There is so much per child and per adult over 18 years of age. It is a significant amount. It is net income and net of the universal social charge, tax and PRSI. It is a fairly significant sum. It would be folly not to anticipate a significant number on the local authority housing list. That represents its own challenge.

We do not have the capital funding to go into the market to acquire or construct, which was the old way to do it and of which I would be very supportive. That is why we must examine alternatives in terms of build-to-lease and the long-term lease initiative with an option to purchase.

The option to purchase is extremely important because people acquire equity and I would like to see it realised in whatever form. Peculiarly, if one has it up-front, it would form part of the general government balance. It must be constructed in a particular way. That is where I agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General that much money is going out to no great effect other than somebody is gaining. However, it is providing social housing. If anybody has any ideas, I would be eager to explore them with them in terms of the social housing framework document we launched on 16 June.

Approved housing bodies will play an increasing role. We could have 600 approved housing bodies throughout the country. The policy statement signals there will be a review of how this sector regulated. I will work with the Irish Council for Social Housing and will try to make progress. I do not want to be a dictator in that regard and want to try to work with a body which is playing a fairly significant role in terms of social housing provision. Nevertheless they will have a significant and pivotal role in the provision of social housing and money will come through them, as they will be in a position to borrow and procure money either through private finance or more often than not, from the Housing Finance Agency. Significant amounts of money will become available. The supervisory regime will have to be put in place in terms of regulation and so on. In fairness, the social housing bodies are engaging constructively in that process.

In terms of community and local bodies, any local voluntary housing group can seek approved housing body status. I must emphasise the importance of the role they play in the context of the housing framework document, particularly in view of the numbers on the approved housing list in August or thereabouts.

Deputy Lynch has been a long time advocate of provisions that tenants acquire equity in their homes. That is important and I would also like to see ultimately that the tenant purchase scheme would be available to people. It is not available currently in relation to tenants of voluntary housing bodies. I would like to see that. People would live in the area and it would stabilise communities if the tenants had the option to purchase the house. There are many tenants who have been paying rent for 15 or 16 years. I would like to ensure they would have the equivalent of a tenant purchase available to them. I would like to see that and will work towards that as it is important. People may not want to take up that scheme, but that is the option open to tenants. A person is not obliged to engage in a tenant purchase scheme if he or she does not wish to do so.

The issue of unfinished housing developments was raised by Deputies Stanley and Bannon and every Deputy has an interest in this. At the end of the day it is the developers who have the primary responsibility, and the developers, site owners, which may be a different person from the developer, or financiers who have the overall primary responsibility for the unfinished housing developments. As Deputies may know, we launched that report on 9 June 2011 and I called on financiers and developers to take a more proactive approach in putting forward long-term solutions for unfinished housing developments across the country. That was a particularly useful report and a number of recommendations came from it. We had an action response prepared by the Department to it. At that time, a month ago, I expressed concern about the feedback I had received from local authorities as they grapple with unfinished housing developments - which strictly is not their responsibility - that they were finding it difficult to engage positively from the developer or site owners or financial institutions who were responsible for loans to such developments. I called for action and thankfully there has been a positive result. I chaired a co-ordinating and implementation group, which had its first meeting two weeks ago and the second meeting is due on Tuesday, 12 July, that brings together all the people involved, including NAMA, a representative of the Irish Banking Federation, the Housing Communities Sustainable Agency and a representative from the City and County Managers Association - the county manager from County Longford, Mr. Tim Caffrey, represents them and members of the Department and various other groups, including the Irish Rural Development group. The membership is drawn from a wide spectrum and we will certainly be open to any ideas as to how this issue can be resolved. Even though the report is there, solutions in that regard will continue to evolve. I note that solutions seem to be evolving. I advocated an idea of "sweat-equity" where a house or a number of houses are half-built, and people who may now have time could get involved and finish the houses and then get a return from their own input when they would get the house at a reasonable price. We may well engage in securing some of the buildings for community purposes, for example, if they are suitable for crèches, doctors' surgeries or some such use, if they can deliver a social dividend. In the context of 239 category four unfinished developments as documented by the local authorities only 38 fell under NAMA's remit. That may well be because the developments were under the minimum figure to get into NAMA. I am engaged with NAMA to secure a social dividend because when the legislation went through the House, there were two issues, one is the overall obligation to secure a commercial return but the second is a social dividend. I hope to announce in the next number of weeks the first social dividend. That will involve an approved housing body as well as the Housing Finance Agency gaining a very substantial number of units in an integrated development model, where some houses will be private, some on leases and some rentals in a pivotal location.

I would encourage NAMA to engage in the long-term leasing initiative as well. There is a coincidence of interests; it has a commercial remit and it wants to get some money in terms of the properties it holds. Which is a substantial number. We do not know the properties that are in NAMA at this time. As a matter of fact, some people are engaged in trying to ascertain the properties in NAMA, but there is a data protection issue. We are working with NAMA to establish how many developments fall under its control, there are clear links between the roles of the Department and NAMA in addressing the challenge of dealing with the oversupply of houses in certain areas and the increased demand for social housing, which I have indicated, is likely to be in the region of 100,000 in the context of the severely restrained economic environment. There is significant potential to align the objectives of both social housing and of NAMA. If houses are available, I would like them to be in areas where there are services.

Notwithstanding that we have a significant number of people on the local authority housing list, it is no use putting people in houses where there are no services and abandoning them. I would not subscribe to that policy and I would not like to be a party to such a policy. I think it would be a disaster and a retrograde step if people were allocated houses in a development of six or eight houses that were well away from every service. I met the chairman and chief executive of NAMA to discuss options of securing a social dividend through the acquisition of suitable residential units for social housing purposes and I respect that they will be seeking a return in line with their commercial mandate. I will pursue that further. The fact that a representative from NAMA is part of the co-ordinating and implementation committee is positive in itself. Obviously, there are private developers who are engaged with NAMA in finishing estates. I think there is one such development in Deputy Stanley's area. I would like to see the integration of human resource needs with the need to finish estates. I would like to see apprentices, who are short only 18 or 20 weeks experiences to complete their apprenticeship and get a qualification as a plumber or electrician get the necessary work to finish out their apprenticeship. Where there is a communal effort or a self build where they would be a community gain, I would like to get FÁS engaged in the project and allow those apprentices to complete their apprenticeship and secure their final certificates and qualifications. They often have their theory done and it is the practical element that has not been completed. If Deputies have ideas on how this issue can be advanced, they should feel free to raise them with me. I am very open to suggestions on how this matter could be tackled. It is an issue with which we must engage and I note one of today's newspapers features an article on it.

An argument has been made that we will have to bite the bullet and demolish some of the unfinished housing estates, specifically those which are located large distances from services and so forth. The Derelict Sites Act, as it stands, cannot be used if there is an existing planning permission. I intend to examine the matter as I believe the legislative framework should be adapted to deal with sites or estates which have been effectively abandoned. They should not be left in place. In addition to adapting the Derelict Sites Act, it may be possible to use the Litter Acts 1997 to 2003 to address problem housing estates.

Chairman

While I appreciate that the Minister of State may wish to elaborate on various points, I wish to focus the debate on the Estimates, where possible. I would also like to afford members a further opportunity to contribute. The sub-committee will examine the possibility of interacting with the Minister of State on the matters he raises. The various relevant issues tend to be discussed in detail in Second Stage debates and the points Deputies make are often lost in the Chamber. Perhaps the sub-committee will avail of an opportunity to elaborate on them.

Deputy Willie Penrose

A sum of €5 million was provided for public safety purposes on housing estates. Local authorities have made submissions in respect of category 4 estates and I understand approximately €1.6 million has been allocated thus far. Submissions continue to be received and I will not be inflexible in terms of deadlines as I want to ensure major safety and compliance issues are addressed. The works done on unfinished housing estates will not be Rolls Royce jobs. The Department could spend the entire sum available for these works on one plan in a single local authority area. As Deputy Bannon will be aware, €400,000 was allocated to deal with important public safety issues in several estates in his area. Deputy Stanley will also be aware of a number of housing estates in County Laois on which work will be done. While local authorities are responsible for administering the funds, they will probably use a tendering system.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The fund is being used well.

Deputy Willie Penrose

I am pleased that is the case. The moneys are provided by taxpayers and will be recouped in some form from developers, site owners or someone else. Given that people are struggling to obtain housing adaptation and other grants, I am keen to ensure public moneys expended on safety in housing estates are recouped in order that they can be expended in other areas, including those referred to by members.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I will try to be brief. I assume the report on Irish Water will be ready in October. I would be pleased to come before the joint committee to discuss it with the committee shortly thereafter.

Deputy Stanley raised two issues. I fully support his view on the accountability of Irish Water and the need to ensure that the entity established is accountable to the Oireachtas and for what occurs underground. I presume the new body will be held to account under the system of tabling parliamentary questions and by Members quizzing its officials on the relevant issues at committee meetings.

Deputy Stanley asked a question on capital funds that local authorities do not or are unable to spend. I understand that 25% of capital projects in water services and 10% of water conservation projects are funded by local authorities. The problem is that the maximum contribution local authorities can make to the Government deficit is set at €200 million. They must, therefore, work within this parameter. The Department is working closely with local authorities to ensure the investment capacity of the sector is maximised and access to loan financing and expenditure of capital balances on hand for critical infrastructure projects is effectively prioritised. If a specific issue arises in a local authority, I am sure the Minister will be pleased to address the matter.

What took place in the North over the Christmas period was unacceptable whereas local authorities in the South responded extremely well. Local authority staff worked approximately 200,000 man hours over the period. Eight of the days on which weather associated difficulties arose fell on holidays. The country would have effectively closed down had it not been for the tremendous work done by local authorities.

To respond to Deputy Humphreys, it is obvious that clean water costs money. For this reason, charges will be required for domestic water. An issue also arises regarding the lack of income from water charges for non-domestic use. I understand local authorities are owed €150 million in non-domestic water charges. This is a major issue which must be addressed.

A number of Deputies referred to Bord na Móna. I met representatives of the company and visited its site in County Kildare. I understand the Department funded the analysis of the water project for Dublin to the tune of approximately €2.25 million. The issue is broader than one of water needs. Climate change is impacting adversely on water supply on the east coast and an adequate water supply is needed. The Bord na Móna project is important for this reason. The needs of the local community in Lough Derg are also important. However, I do not know if one can move a bog to the River Shannon. Bord na Móna is consulting widely with the local community whose needs should be met, where possible, in the area of employment and in other matters.

Deputy McLoughlin referred to the timeframe for introducing water meters and their cost. It will take three years to meter all homes apart from the significant number of homes which will not be metered for a number of reasons, including dual supply. Many issues remain to be resolved.

Chairman

Representatives of Bord na Móna will appear before the joint committee on 19 July and members will visit the site in County Kildare on 20 July.

Deputy Phil Hogan

To clarify an issue for Deputy Coonan, whereas Leader funding is provided across several Departments, including the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in the case of the Tús programme, funding is the specific responsibility of the Department of Social Protection.

Deputy Noel Coonan

The response many people are receiving from the Leader programme is that they do not qualify for the Tús programme.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We will engage with the official from the Department on the matter. If Deputy Coonan provides her with the relevant details, I will have the matter investigated.

The Chairman takes a keen interest in flooding and severe weather. The relevant report will be available in the next few weeks. I will have a copy sent to him.

Chairman

On the social housing budget, the voluntary housing sector appears to be expanding. It is increasingly assuming the role of social housing landlord. I flag this issue with the Minister because the sub-committee may address it at a later meeting. If the voluntary sector is to continue to grow, the issue of governance and registration will have to be addressed by means of legislation and regulation.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

On the subhead D3, the subscription to international organisations, will the Minister circulate information indicating the organisations to which subscriptions are made? On subhead H1, in light of the much reduced number of planning applications being submitted to An Bord Pleanála, the reduction of 5% to the board's allocation appears to be small.

Deputy Phil Hogan

An Bord Pleanála is engaged in much additional activity of a detailed nature on strategic infrastructure. Its income from own resources has also declined significantly.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I am flagging it as the activity I will be monitoring in terms of An Bord Pleanála. I accept what the Minister has said. It just seems that the reduction is-----

Deputy Phil Hogan

There were a number of high profile cases recently which required much additional expenditure for the board. As the Deputy is well aware it was caught up in a number of controversies. It has had much additional expenditure but the income levels are down substantially.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I compliment the Minister on his recent announcement in regard to the levy on packaging, especially excess packaging. That is welcome and will have a significant impact on the amount of-----

Deputy Phil Hogan

I have not made an announcement yet as to whether I will go ahead with it, but I am certainly looking at it.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

The Minister is considering it.

Chairman

Deputies Bannon and Coonan are offering.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

That is encouraging.

Deputy James Bannon

While I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Willie Penrose, cannot wave a magic wand over the rogue developers, unless positive action is taken soon and unless there is community involvement, many village estates will become the slums of the 21st century. Development committees have ideas and plans and I have no doubt the Minister of State will take those on board especially in respect of counties which availed of the tax incentive schemes, such as Longford, Leitrim and Roscommon. Villages have been destroyed and there is no need for housing. Vast tracts of lands have planning permission for 60 to 70 houses. Those lands could be turned into a parish park with the aid of local development money.

Dublin City Council has fired the first shots in the water war between the midlands and Dublin. We must be careful this issue does not trigger lawsuits within the midlands. There are several vested interests-----

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

There is a need for a point of clarity.

Chairman

May I interject between the two members? The language that is used in regard in the Bord na Móna project needs to be more measured in terms of the battle of the buttons or whatever. I ask Deputy Bannon to conclude his comments.

Deputy James Bannon

In regard to the vested interests, we are aware of these from the recent flood event and how difficult it was for OPW to move forward to relieve the flooding on the Shannon. Those vested interests are liable to take lawsuits against the movement of water from the midlands to Dublin. That is something we have to guard against.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

The Deputy is actually wrong.

Deputy James Bannon

My final point concerns the simplification of the adaptation forms. This issue needs to be considered.

Deputy Phil Hogan

May I clarify a point? The Deputy asked a question which I did not answer in regard to subhead D.3. We make contributions for MET Éireann. The chief regulatory body is the World Meteorological Organisation, an agency of the United Nations. MET Éireann relies heavily on the operational support from the European centre for medium range weather forecasting and the European organisation for the exploitation of meteorological satellites. Therefore, they have to get some money on an annual basis for the use of that information.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

There are two headings-----

Chairman

Sorry, I want to bring in the Minister.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

The information could be circulated afterwards.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We also make a financial subscription to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Chairman

That has been circulated already but the Deputy may wish to double check it with the clerk.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Quality of water, cleanliness, safety and so on were mentioned. In the context of the Estimates, some of chemicals that are being used, in particular, fluoride in water that is banned in other countries. Is that the responsibility of local government or the Department of Health? Does the Minister's Department have a responsibility in this area?

Deputy Phil Hogan

It is a matter for the Department of Health.

Deputy Noel Coonan

A chemical that has proven to be unsafe, about which there is huge concern and which is banned in other European countries is being administered by local authorities. For example, in my area it was abandoned very swiftly one morning about ten years ago and now it has been reintroduced without any information to the public. There is huge concern among people. It has some benefits, mainly for teeth, but it has many disadvantages and is likely to cause more problems than it resolves. Who will take responsibility for this issue and who will answer for it?

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Department of Health is the relevant body on what is safe and not safe. No conclusion has been reached on the lines suggested by the Deputy. There is concern but it is not deemed to be unsafe.

Deputy Noel Coonan

It was in a report -----

Deputy Phil Hogan

We look after our own affairs here. We do not know what happens in other countries but we use the information we get from other countries, through the Department of Health, to advise us. It has advised us that, subject to certain standards of application, fluoride is safe in water.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I am sure it is very reassuring that the Minister is happy with the use of fluoride, but I cannot say everybody is.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am refuting what the Deputy said in saying that it is not banned here. We have certain standards. We rely on the Department of Health to give us the necessary expertise. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government does not have to provide for that expertise in its Estimates.

Deputy Noel Coonan

The country that manufactures and sells it to Ireland does not use it at all. It is banned in that country.

Deputy Phil Hogan

There is an upper limit under the drinking water directive which is monitored by the EPA. That is our only role but we rely on the Department of Health to give us the scientific evidence to suggest whether it is safe.

Deputy Willie Penrose

Deputy Bannon made the point that the additional medical evidence required in respect of housing adaptation grants is very severe. We should minimise the level of bureaucracy associated with those type of grants. I will certainly examine the issue in that context. We will be working on the unfinished estates. I will maintain an oversight as to how active developers and financial institutions are co-operating in the development of site resolution plans. We hope to have more than 300 ready by January 2012 which is significant progress. It is a fairly ambitious objective but we intend to try to keep to that and see how the issue evolves. Ultimately we may well have to face the possibility that some may have to be demolished or returned to agricultural activity or communal activity or to agricultural land if that is possible. That will be examined. If there is an area that is virtually abandoned and we can get the community involved, I would favour that approach. Those are all solutions we will explore. A very eminent person, the Deputy's county manager, is involved on behalf of the City and County Managers' Association. Indeed, Longford has taken a lead in that regard in terms of what can be achieved. It should be held up as a bastion of achievement right across the country. The Deputy should be proud of Longford in that regard

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I wold like to have one issue clarified. The water scheme involves eight local authorities. We should move away from emotive language. There should be a community gain for every area that is involved but certainly emotive language such as water wars and so on is not helpful. Within the eight local authorities, more than 60% of all taxation in the State is paid and receipted. We need to look at ways of getting the economy moving again. It is noted internationally that city regions are the engine for the recovery. It would be helpful in this committee if we keep emotive language out of it.

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy Bannon-----

Deputy James Bannon

Sorry to-----

Chairman

Deputy Bannon, no. We will discuss this issue in two weeks time. The Deputy's comments have been noted and the views expressed can be developed at the next meeting. I call Deputy McLoughlin for a final comment.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

The Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, said he would look at the application forms. It has recently been brought to my attention that in respect of housing application forms the applicant must get either a solicitor or a commissioner of oaths to sign it which is a very expensive procedure. Heretofore, such forms could be signed by a peace commissioner.

Deputy Willie Penrose

I am not aware of that.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I have come across a number of such cases recently. That applicants must pay a solicitor or a commissioner of oaths for this service is unfair.

Deputy Willie Penrose

I will look at that issue. I think it is a bit over the top.

Chairman

I thank the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, the Ministers of State, Deputies Willie Penrose and Fergus O'Dowd, and the officials from the Department for attending today's meeting of the select sub-committee. I and the members of the committee look forward to working with them over the coming period.