SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jul 2011

Vote 27 - Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs (Revised)

Chairman

The meeting has been convened to allow the select sub-committee to consider the 2011 Revised Estimates for Vote 24, Office of Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, and Vote 27, Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. I welcome the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, and the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Dinny McGinley. I also welcome the officials from the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Mr. Joe Hamill, Secretary General; Mr. John Collins, assistant secretary; and Ms Mary Hurley, principal officer, and from the Department of Finance, Mr. Colm Treanor, principal officer, and Mr. Trevor Donnelly, assistant principal officer. I thank them for attending.

I remind members that as the former Minister for Finance requested that the Estimates debate have a particular focus on the outputs to be achieved and the moneys to be Voted, in our discussion we should consider what has been achieved, not just the moneys that have been spent. Both issues are important. We have a duty to establish that moneys are being spent wisely and prudently, but it is also essential that we are fully aware of the results it is hoped to achieve and the impact of these results on the provision and availability of services throughout Ireland.

I propose that we begin with an opening statement by the Minister, to be followed by statements by other members of the committee, if they so wish. I will call on members as they indicate they wish to speak. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Jimmy Deenihan)

Is mór agam an deis seo a fháil teacht os comhair an choiste seo inniu chun Meastacháin do Vóta Uimhir 27, An Roinn Gnothaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, a phlé. Members will, of course, be aware that I attended this committee on 6 July to discuss the 2011 Estimates for my Department and the National Gallery of Ireland. I have since been advised that it is also necessary to secure approval for the expenditure incurred under Vote 27 for the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs and under Vote 24 for the Office of Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for the period January to May this year. While I had no statutory responsibility in regard to that Department or office during the period in question, I have agreed to facilitate the process of seeking approval here today for the Estimates in question.

Members of the committee will be aware that the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs was abolished as part of the reorganisation of departmental functions announced by the Taoiseach in March in order to ensure greater coherence and produce more efficient delivery of services. While functions in regard to the Irish language, Gaeltacht and North-South co-operation transferred to me as Minister, other key areas of that Department relating mainly to community development, rural development and equality have not been part of my ministerial portfolio at any stage. As members will be aware, these areas are now part of the statutory functions of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Within these obvious constraints, I will be glad to respond to the extent possible to any questions raised by members in regard to these Estimates or, if appropriate, to refer issues the committee may have to relevant Cabinet colleagues in line with ministerial functions they now hold. The former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs held responsibility for a wide range of policies and programmes in respect of community and rural development, drugs, volunteering, social inclusion policy, family policy, the Gaeltacht, the Irish language, the islands, equality, disability, integration and human rights. The budgets, functions and personnel in respect of the former Department's activities have now transferred to several different Departments. The Revised Estimates Volume 211 gross allocation is €104.934 million and it reflects the expenditure undertaken by the Department prior to the date of the transfers of these functions.

I propose to refer briefly to some of the key areas of expenditure under the former Department's remit and to outline where the responsibility for these functions now rests. The supporting communities area - subheads B1 to B7 supported a range of social inclusion programmes, including the local community development programme, the Family Support Agency and RAPID, which targets some of the most disadvantaged urban areas in the country. Certain funding relating to charities regulation as well as dormant accounts funding to tackle economic and social disadvantage were also provided through this area. Responsibility for the supporting communities functions has, for the most part, transferred to Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government. The key exceptions to this are subhead B2 - grant to Family Support Agency, which has transferred to the new Department of Children and Youth Affairs; subhead B7 - miscellaneous services, which has transferred to Vote 38 - Social Protection and subhead B4 - charities regulation together with a small element of B6 - dormant account measures, which have transferred to Vote 19 - Justice and Equality.

I also point out that the Office of Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests - Vote 24 has also transferred to Vote 19 - Justice and Equality as part of this restructuring. I understand the expenditure under these subheads made a considerable contribution to the tasks of countering disadvantage and promoting equality and social and economic inclusion within the communities on which the spend was targeted.

With regard to tackling problem drug use area - subhead C, expenditure covered by this provision included the 14 local and ten regional drugs task forces, the emerging needs fund, the cocaine and rehabilitation fund, and a number of capital initiatives, as well as the research programme and administration of the National Advisory Committee on Drugs. Responsibility for this area has now transferred to Vote 39 - Health.

Turning to rural development - subheads D1 to D4,funding in this area was for a range of rural supports and investment programmes, including the EU co-financed rural development programme 2007-2013, designed to support and foster rural communities. Most of the functions in the rural development area have transferred to Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government. Subhead D2 - islands has transferred to my Vote 35 - Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and a nominal subhead D3.5 - Marine Leisure and Tourism transferred to Vote 31- Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

With regard to the Irish language and the Gaeltacht functions - subheads E1 to E7, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Dinny McGinley, outlined the purposes for which these allocations are required when he was before the committee on 6 July last and I do not propose to add further to his contribution at this time.

Turning to equality, integration and human rights - subheads F1 to F12,as members will be aware, this area incorporates responsibility for, among other things, disability, gender and diversity equality, human rights, Traveller policy and integration of migrants. Agencies such as the Equality Authority, the Human Rights Commission, the National Disability Authority and the Equality Tribunal are also included in this funding. Responsibility for these areas has transferred to Vote 19 - Justice and Equality.

In regard to North-South co-operation - subheads GI to G3, this provision supports the two North-South implementation bodies, An Foras Teanga, comprising Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster-Scots Agency, and Waterways Ireland. The funding for these areas was previously brought to the attention of the committee on 6 July last. There was also an allocation for certain measures under the PEACE III and INTERREG programmes, responsibility for which has transferred to Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government.

As I indicated at the outset, I will be happy, within the constraints imposed by my particular legal responsibilities as Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, to respond, where possible, to any matter that members may wish to raise in terms of the Estimates now before the committee.

Chairman

Before I invite members to respond, I advise that this meeting is very much of a technical nature to deal with the rearrangements of Departments, the placing of budgets and the conclusion of budgets for the first four months of this year.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

That is correct.

Chairman

Do any members wish to contribute?

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I thank the Minister for the information he outlined. It is very informative. As a new TD, I find the figures for the budget cuts compared to the figures for 2010 frightening. I am concerned such cuts will lead to job losses and about how the cuts in these areas will affect the tourism industry.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

These are the Estimates that were introduced in the budget of December 2010. We are putting them into law now and this is the process. The Deputy is correct in saying that there have been fairly dramatic cuts. On the day of the last meeting this was very much in evidence especially the cuts in the heritage area.

Chairman

Do any other Deputies wish to contribute?

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I suppose I do not have a leg to stand on following the last comment by the Minister as I was a backbencher in the previous Government. There still appears to be considerable funding available under the rural development programme. I do not know how much of it will be allocated to the community side for which the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, is responsible.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

All of that will go to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

Will the Minister have some function in rolling out the rural development programme, as there are many projects that come under it? I checked the figures for Galway and our nearest neighbour, Roscommon, and a considerable amount of the money allocated does not appear to have been spent - that was the position certainly prior to end of 2010. Many community projects, including sporting clubs, are seeking funding at least until the sporting grants, hopefully, come back on stream.

The Minister said that the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, is dealing with the Gaeltacht function. I did not know about the last meeting. I note from programme 4 - subheads E1 to E8 that there have been many cutbacks in the Gaeltacht Vote. There is great concern about this particularly among people living on the islands and 75% of the islands are in the Gaeltacht. We might have a chance to discuss this matter tomorrow during Question Time. Will the Minister give us information on transport infrastructure or even health and education services on the islands generally?

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I do not have any responsibility for the rural development programme. I am engaging with and encouraging arts and heritage offices across the country to interact with local partnership companies, as there is a large pot of money available to them. I am trying to encourage, as much as possible, identification of projects in arts and heritage to avail of this funding. There are a few examples where this has worked. In Kilkenny the arts office is co-ordinating with the local development company in a number of arts projects which have been very successful.

If there are people involved in arts and heritage, they should go to the local partnership company as there is much funding available. I will try to engage with partnership companies across the country to encourage them to consider the arts favourably, with possible policy aimed at the arts and heritage. In rural areas they may be the most readily available type of project. There is a cultural capital value if one wishes to promote tourism in an area, and a tourist attraction can also be developed. Effectively, if people come to a locality, they will have something to look at.

Funding for Údarás na Gaeltachta was savagely cut last year and a Minister must live with that. The Minister of State with responsibility for the Gaeltacht is Deputy McGinley. Current funding for the islands of €6.2 million was reduced this year to €5.7 million. Although that was not a massive cut, capital funding was significant reduced from €10.8 million to €3.7 million. The Minister of State will have to live with that and maintain past expectations from when much money was being put into the islands.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

I echo the comments of Deputy McLellan. Some of these cuts are catastrophic. We all know who caused the problem and in fairness to Deputy Kitt he has put up his hand and there may not be much of a comeback on this. I understood that being part of the Government was about having choices and ultimately it seems to be the choice of this Government to follow through on these cuts. It can have a budget at any time if it wants to move the money around in a different manner. These are cuts from this Government now, although we know who is at fault for them.

There is one matter that sticks out. The Western Development Commission and rural development has been transferred to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan. We had a jobs initiative that would make the price of cinema admission in Roscommon town cheaper and we could go except we do not have a cinema. It would also attract tourists by decreasing prices for fast food. As far as I can see they will not have an impact but the cut in the Western Development Commission will certainly have an effect. It is a way of developing our area, as the name suggests, and less development will take place as the budget has decreased from €2.1 million to €895,000. We are looking at more job losses, which is sad.

These are the decisions from this Government, which cannot persist in blaming the last Government. We know why we are here but it is the choice of the current Government as to how we get out of this. It cannot blame people's past actions.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

This is our legal obligation and these are the Estimates arising from last December's budget. It will be the same next December and whoever is part of the Government must take responsibility then. We will do so then as we do now. We are tied into the IMF programme and unless we pursue a certain line, we will not get funding in this country. I do not have to explain that to the Deputy. We must take €350 million each week to keep going and we will not receive that money unless we pursue certain types of programmes.

I agree with the Deputy's comments about choices, which must be made. At this time we are going through a very comprehensive review of expenditure and we all must account for our Departments. I will make a strong case for arts and heritage and I ask for whatever help is forthcoming from Members. By supporting arts and heritage there is a great dividend to be had. There is also a cultural imperative. That helps, but ultimately stark choices must be made here for the coming years. I hope it will be a short period but the problem could extend to several years.

I was in this committee room when there were increases of 25% and 30% across the board. This is a completely different and challenging scenario and all of us can be helpful. I know those in Opposition must put pressure on a Minister to direct money into certain areas, which is what I have done for most of my political life. As I am now part of the Cabinet I must make my own choices. When I come before the committee to discuss the next set of Estimates, I will defend those choices.

When the Western Development Commission was set up I did my best to have Kerry included in its remit. It has produced some very good reports and identified major infrastructural deficiencies in the west over the years. It has been an effective agency so I understand the Deputy's concern about funding for the body. It has performed well for the west of Ireland, and I had hoped the entire western seaboard would be included. That did not happen and as somebody wanted Cork included, it defeated my argument at the time.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

Deputy Luke Flanagan referred to the jobs initiative. I know there were modest proposals but even they can be good. What role did Údarás na Gaeltachta have in the jobs initiative? We are discussing job creation and it has a great track record, with 7,000 people working in seven counties where there is a Gaeltacht. It was creating 1,000 jobs per year until recently, which was required to combat job losses. I did not see anything to indicate there is any money or funding from the jobs initiative in Údarás na Gaeltachta.

As Deputy Luke Flanagan noted we were told reductions in VAT would be passed on, and we hope jobs will come from that, but anecdotal and more empirical evidence is emerging that these savings are not being passed on. The media has argued that reductions are not being passed to the consumer. Údarás na Gaeltachta could become more involved in the jobs initiative but for all I know it may have been left out.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

It was not left out because the VAT reduction and the PRSI exemptions apply to employers and retail outlets across the country. When I have gone into restaurants, I have made it my business to look at the menu to ensure the VAT reduction has been passed on. I have noticed that it has been passed on. Most people have gone to a great deal of trouble - they have come up with new menus, and so on - in order to pass the reduction on to their customers. Other people may be using the difference to keep their businesses running. It was meant as a stimulant. We were trying to create more activity, attract more tourists and make Ireland more competitive. The intention was that more people would have to be employed to service the increased number of tourists. As these initiatives were introduced on 1 July last, it is quite early to judge the impact they will have. I accept that they were modest, but no more latitude was available to the Minister for Finance. The VAT reduction from 13.5% to 9%, which related to most items that benefit the tourism industry, was fairly big.

I remind the sub-committee that it was suggested in the strategy that IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland would take responsibility for job creation in Gaeltacht areas from Údarás na Gaeltachta. The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, and I strongly resisted that suggestion and brought about a change in that policy. IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland do not have the same record as Údarás na Gaeltachta. I appreciate that the jobs may cost more. As someone who comes from a peripheral county, I realise that if one is to encourage people to create jobs in peripheral parts of Ireland, one has to provide more grant aid. The reality is that they have to cost more. If more grant aid is not provided, jobs will not be created in such areas. Our decision to protect Údarás na Gaeltachta was based on its track record. Before the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, took charge of Gaeltacht affairs from the former Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, it was decided to reduce the capital funding provided to Gaeltacht areas from €18 million to €6 million. That drastic reduction will have an impact on Gaeltacht areas. The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, faces a major challenge.

Chairman

I thank the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, and the officials from the Department for attending today's meeting of the select sub-committee.