SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT (Select Sub-Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government) debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jan 2012

Business of Select Sub-Committee

Vice Chairman

Apologies have been received from the Chairman, Deputy Ciarán Lynch, who is unavailable. This meeting has been reconvened for the purpose of continuing the consideration by the select sub-committee of the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011. The select sub-committee will consider the Bill until 1.15 p.m., at which time the sitting will be suspended until 2.30 p.m. when it will resume and continue until 5.30 p.m., at which time the sitting will again be suspended until 6 p.m. when it resume and will continue until 9 p.m. If the proceedings are not concluded by that time, in accordance with the order passed by Dáil Éireann on 12 January, I will put one question to the select sub-committee which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister. That will conclude the select sub-committee's consideration of the Bill.

The motion passed by Dáil Éireann on 12 January reads as follows:

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or the order of the Dáil of 30th November, 2011, the proceedings in the Select Sub-Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government on the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 [Seanad] shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 9 p.m. on Wednesday, 18th January, 2012, by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government or a Minister of State, nominated as a substitute on his behalf.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, and his officials, Mr. Ivan Grimes, principal officer, and Mr. Tony Keogh, assistant principal officer, water services policy section, and thank them for their attendance.

The first item on the agenda is a motion tabled by Deputy Niall Collins. It reads:

That the following organisations be invited to appear before the Committee prior to the resumption of Committee Stage of the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011: Environmental Protection Agency; An Taisce; Friends of the Irish Environment; Rural Dweller's Association; Irish Rural Link; Representatives of both elected Members and Managers of Local Authorities; Engineers Ireland.

As the motion has been superseded by the order passed by Dáil Éireann on 12 January, I am ruling it out of order. The select sub-committee will now recommence its consideration of the Bill.

Deputy Niall Collins

May I comment on the matter?

Vice Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Niall Collins

I have tabled the motion in good faith because members of the select sub-committee are making decisions in the absence of full information which can be gleaned from the agencies and groups outlined in the motion. It is fair to state that when Dáil Éireann passed the aforementioned motion last Thursday morning, it did so on the basis of incorrect information provided by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn. While I accept he did not do so knowingly, incorrect information was given to the Dáil, in that the Minister stated the fines would kick in from 6 February which the Commission has confirmed is not the case. On that basis, members should reconsider taking the motion tabled by me.

Vice Chairman

I must rule the motion out of order.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Given the previous speaker's remarks and in view of the lack of information available to members on the standards that will apply - this is the crux of the issue - to septic tanks and wastewater treatment systems in rural areas, I propose that the meeting of the select sub-committee be suspended. I do so on the basis that members do not have the required information on standards and that Deputy Niall Collins has indicated that the information placed before the Dáil last week was incorrect.

Another issue which arises is that a commitment has not been given. We are due to proceed with the Committee Stage debate on the Bill and the amendments to it but members are not aware of what will be the standards that will apply. Rural dwellers are going to be forced into a situation where they will not be able to pay and they are going to be criminalised as a result. The least members are entitled to before work on the Bill proceeds is full information. On that basis, I propose that we suspend the meeting.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I welcome the fact that my fellow countyman is chairing these proceedings. I know that, as always, he will be impartial.

I second Deputy Stanley's proposal. What is being done here is a complete charade. The Bill is being rushed through. I accept that we can be criticised for not keeping our eye on the ball. However, it is not easy to monitor everything in light of the amount of material, etc., with which we are being presented. The legislation before us is discriminatory when it comes to rural dwellers. However, not just the latter will be affected. I have been contacted by many people whose homes are located on the outskirts of towns. Frankly, I could not believe that their dwellings were connected to private water systems.

We have been presented with a pig in a poke and we are expected to pass the legislation without knowing what is involved. The Minister will be able to make regulations on a completely arbitrary basis as a result of what is contained in the Bill. He has informed me, both privately and in public, that there are no standards being introduced. In such circumstances, why are we dealing with the Bill? We are wasting Oireachtas time, particularly if standards are not going to apply. It emerged on the previous occasion that there will be no standards in respect of pre-1964 tanks.

What is proposed is too vague. This issue is too serious for that to be the case. Members of the public - specifically, but not exclusively, those who live in rural areas - are not going to take this lying down because they are of the view that they are being discriminated against. I understand that €11 million is being spent annually in order to maintain urban schemes. This amount does not include the money invested in such schemes from the outset. I welcome that investment and I reiterate that I am completely in favour of clean and uncontaminated water. However, I must also stand up for people's rights. Those rights are being trodden on in this Bill. That is not good enough. As a result of what is happening, I must second the motion. I urge that we abandon this charade until we are provided with proper details and information.

It is obvious that somebody dreamed up the 6 February deadline because the European Commission has informed Deputy Ó Cuív that it will be late summer or early autumn before the court makes a decision on this matter. It is extremely unfair that the Dáil was misled. I accept that neither the Minister nor his colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, deliberately misled the Dáil. It is obvious, however, that someone engaged in misleading activity. We should not be misled any further and we should be presented with the facts. This charade should be brought to an end, once and for all.

Vice Chairman

The Deputy has made his point quite well.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I have. I second the motion.

Vice Chairman

Unfortunately, I do not make the rules or the regulations. The motion is superseded by what happened in the Dáil.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

This is a separate motion.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I wish to make a suggestion. There are two major issues in respect of this Bill. The first relates to the standards, about which we are completely in the dark. However, we will discuss that matter later. The standards to which I refer relate to maintenance and to the inspections that will be carried out. The second issue is that if we are correct in our contention that EPA standards will apply, there will be significant potential costs involved. The latter is outlined in the regulatory impact analysis. If it is EPA standards that will apply, then the question of grant aid arises. Such grant aid would have to be significant in nature. We cannot quantify and deal with the second issue without dealing with the first issue.

The order of the House is that the select sub-committee will sit today between 10 a.m. and 9 p.m. and that there will be a one-hour break for lunch and a 30-minute break in the evening. I suggest that the committee should agree, in principle, that representatives from An Taisce, the Irish Rural Dwellers Association, the County and City Managers Association and similar organisations should be invited to come before the select sub-committee next week to discuss this matter. There is a long way to go in respect of the Bill, particularly in view of the fact that regulations must be drawn up. I further suggest that between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m., when our lunch break is due to occur, representatives from the EPA should come before us-----

Vice Chairman

Deputy Niall Collins already tabled a motion in this regard and it was ruled out of order because it was superseded by what happened in the Dáil last week. We are merely taking a statement from Deputy Ó Cuív on the matter now.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

My suggestion is that we would not in any way invalidate the order of the House because the representatives from the EPA would come before us at a time when the select sub-committee would not technically be sitting. The select sub-committee could request that the representatives brief members during the lunch break on the standards that will be applied. As a result, the order of the House would remain unaffected. I understand that the only thing we cannot do is interfere with the times set down for our sittings. However, the select sub-committee is not due to sit between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. If we forego the scheduled lunch break, we could hear from representatives of the EPA. Without knowing what advice that organisation is going to provide to the Minister in respect of section 70L of the principal Act, it is difficult for members to evaluate the Bill properly.

Vice Chairman

We already voted on the relevant motion and the select sub-committee decided not to go down that route. I ask the Minister to provide a brief response in respect of this matter.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

In the first instance, Ireland has been in direct difficulty with the European Court of Justice since October 2009. Commitments were given by my predecessor to the effect that legislation relating to a solution in respect of the judgment handed down by the European Court of Justice would be brought forward by the end of 2010. However, nothing happened. On 12 July 2011, the European Commission formally requested that the European Court of Justice impose both a lump-sum fine and daily penalties on Ireland for having failed to take the necessary measures to comply with the ruling the court handed down on 29 October 2009. In its submission to the court, the Commission stated that it considered that the period which had elapsed since the ruling was a sufficient amount of time for Ireland to have complied with that ruling.

On 23 November 2011 the European Commission submitted an application to the European Court of Justice seeking the imposition of a lump-sum penalty of €3.9 million and daily fines of more than €26,000 against Ireland for failing to comply with the ruling. In its submission, the Commission argued that more than enough time had elapsed since the ruling and that the Irish authorities should already have achieved compliance. In accordance with European Court of Justice procedures, member states are given the opportunity to submit rejoinders to applications by the Commission in which they can set out the reasons why fines and penalties should not be imposed. The deadline for Ireland's rejoinder is 3 February 2012. The latter will be the final opportunity for this country to inform the court as to why fines and penalties should not be imposed. Deputy Ó Cuív and others are stating that we should not bother submitting this rejoinder.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Through the Chair-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

No one said that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

-----I ask the Minister to withdraw that remark.

Vice Chairman

Let us hear the Minister.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Deputy Ó Cuív has been running around the country in respect of this matter. He should allow me to conclude. The central strand of Ireland's defence in this case will be that the necessary legislative measures have been put in place. That is what this country has promised to do by 3 February. It is for this reason that the latter deadline has been put in place in respect of enactment of the legislation. In light of this, it is obvious that no one was misled in the Dáil.

I am determined to ensure that the necessary measures will be in place in order to allow Ireland to put forward an argument to the effect that the fines to which I refer - which would have to be paid by taxpayers, both rural and urban - will not be imposed. The legislation before the select sub-committee is necessary to the defence we propose to mount before the European Court of Justice.

I wish to make a brief comment on the motion. As part of the commitment made by the previous Government to comply with the judgment handed down by the European Court of Justice against Ireland in 2009 and to put in place the necessary measures by the end of 2010, in October and November 2010 my Department undertook consultations with over 150 key stakeholders with a potential interest in the legislation in order to allow for a discussion on the matter of how we might comply with the terms of that judgment. The stakeholders to which I refer included public bodies and organisations representing the rural, agricultural, environmental and industrial sectors. These entities were invited to make submissions regarding the implementation of an inspection and monitoring system for septic tanks. In other words, the previous Government had already engaged in stakeholder consultation regarding the introduction of such a system. Many submissions were made to the Department and are available for inspection on its website. They informed the heads of the Bill which was considered by the Government in May 2011. The organisations which made submissions included An Taisce, the Irish Environmental Network, which includes Friends of the Irish Environment, Irish Rural Link, a number of local authorities and Engineers Ireland. We have had consultations with all these organisations.

Enactment of the Bill forms a critical element of Ireland's defence in the European Court of Justice that the penalties sought by the European Commission should not be imposed. However, we are out of time and likely to be fined. We will have reached the deadline when we make our defence on 3 February. That is the legal advice available to the Government and the Attorney General.

Vice Chairman

Thank you, Minister. We are now proceeding-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No. The Minister specifically said-----

Vice Chairman

I am sorry, Deputy, but I am chairing the meeting. The motion has been ruled out of order. I allowed each member to make a statement on it and the Minister has responded. I am moving on. I remind members that there are 112 amendments to the Bill.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister specifically told an untruth about me and I would like it to be withdrawn.

Vice Chairman

Excuse me, Deputy. You know that the meeting is to be brought to an end at 9 p.m. The motion is out of order. There are 112 amendments to the Bill. We will now discuss amendments Nos. 27 to 32, inclusive.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister cannot tell untruths with impunity. He has clarified-----

Vice Chairman

With the Deputy's co-operation, we can get through the amendments. He will have ample opportunity during the day to refer to the Minister when the amendments are being discussed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I seek the withdrawal by the Minister of an untruth. To put it bluntly, he told a lie about me.

Vice Chairman

That is not parliamentary language.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Deputy should withdraw that remark.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister should first withdraw his remark.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The Deputy is going around the country telling lies all the time.

Vice Chairman

I ask Deputy Ó Cuív to withdraw his remark first. If he does not co-operate, I will suspend the sitting.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister told an untruth about me. Now that I have got your attention, let him withdraw his remark.

Deputy Phil Hogan

What did I say that was untrue?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister said I was opposed to a reply being given by 3 February.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is not correct. With no disrespect to the Minister, when I was Minister, I was bullied in the same way by officials about a reply on a European issue - bog cutting - and I was proved right, that it could be deferred for a further year. They were ringing me every day to tell me-----

Deputy Phil Hogan

I succeeded where the Deputy had failed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I also made that decision. I cannot understand why the Minister cannot give the reply that the Bill is being considered in the Houses of the Oireachtas, a democratic Parliament; that we have reached the final Stages; that as a result of his own negligence in not telling us about the deadline and bringing us back last week, the Bill will run for an extra couple of weeks but will be passed in early March; and that he cannot implement it until he brings forward regulations. He should state we are dealing with the issue and that we do not normally guillotine debate at committees.

Vice Chairman

The motion is out of order.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I want the Minister to withdraw the remark he made about me because I never said a reply should not be given. I said it was not true that we would be fined €26,000 each day from 3 February. That is what the Minister for Education and Skills said in the Dáil.

Deputy Brian Stanley

There is a second proposal before the sub-committee that has been seconded by Deputy McGrath that we adjourn on the basis that we have not received full information on the standards that will apply.

Vice Chairman

The Deputy is------

Deputy Brian Stanley

I have tried to raise this issue a number of times and tried to raise it in the Dáil last year also. I am no clearer now than I was then. It is completely unsatisfactory that we are here with amendments in front of us to ram through a Bill with the use of a guillotine and without receiving full information. The least to which we are entitled is access to complete information. I want clean water. I want groundwater and the environment to be protected, but it is a sham to ram through the Bill without having a proper discussion. We cannot discuss something if we do not have the facts. I am not trying to be obstructive; I am just trying to be honest. The proposal made has been seconded by Deputy McGrath. This is very disappointing.

Vice Chairman

I accept that, but I do not make the rules. There is a procedure to have them amended.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We could adjourn the meeting and meet again on Friday or Monday when we have full information available to us. Last week in the Dáil we voted against use of the guillotine, but the Government parties rammed the motion through to stop debate. We will have no opportunity to hear about the standards that will apply. It is a total farce.

Vice Chairman

Let me explain, with the Deputy's co-operation. I cannot change the rules of the House. There is a procedure in place for doing so. The motion proposed is associated with one tabled by Deputy Collins and is out of order. It has been superseded by the order of the Dáil.

Deputy Brian Stanley

It has not. It is a separate motion. I propose that we adjourn the meeting until we receive full information on the standards that will apply.

Vice Chairman

The motion has been superseded by order agreed to in the Dáil last Friday. A motion was put to the House and voted on.

Deputy Brian Stanley

This is a bad day's work. We need full information to make decisions.

Vice Chairman

I call Deputy McGrath and we will then move on.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

At the outset, I said I hoped you would be fair, as you always are.

Vice Chairman

Is the Deputy suggesting I am not being fair?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am getting worried.

Vice Chairman

The Deputy is at his best when he is worried.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is the type of flippant comment being made by you and the Minister. While we understand the Minister has to deal with the issue, he is being flippant and making wild accusations about Deputy Ó Cuív, me and others. He did not mention me on radio in Limerick-----

Vice Chairman

He has made no comments here. I am chairing the meeting and will not accept the Deputy's remark that I am being flippant.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You said I was at my best when I was worried. I am worried that the concept of democracy is being treated as though it is a sham. We are being denied our democratic rights. A motion has been tabled, but you said everything has been superseded by the order made in the Dáil last Friday. That was also a sham because we were not able to vote on anything. The Government has committed to Friday sittings, but we were not even able to have a vote. That is a fact.

Vice Chairman

There was no vote on Friday.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We were not able to a vote on anything until Tuesday. I do not know what kind of sitting it was on Friday, given that the cost was €90,000. It was a sham and a disgrace. The Minister for Education and Science can give misinformation from wherever he received it, but I never suggested either that we did not have to reply to the court by 3 February. Of course, we have to deal with the issue. I am looking for a reasonable amount of time and do not want to be a party to any Bill or rules on which people are misinformed or on which we do not have full information. It is as simple as that.

I ask the Minister not to throw snide remarks at us and then expect us to sit back and abide by the rulings of the Chair. That will not happen.

Vice Chairman

When the debate on the Bill was adjourned on 14 December 2011, we had gone as far as amendment No. 27 which was being discussed with amendments Nos. 28 to 32, inclusive. It was agreed at the conclusion of that meeting that Deputy Ó Cuív who was speaking at the time would be the first to speak on the recommencement of our consideration of the Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister promised that we would be back two weeks ago and that he would give us time. Why did he not do this? He wanted his holidays. He promised that we would be back a couple of days after Christmas to deal with the issue.