Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 1 April 2025
14. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [4525/25]
View answer15. Deputy Malcolm Byrne asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [4535/25]
View answer16. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the coordination role of his Department in national security. [12374/25]
View answer17. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the coordination role of his Department in national security. [12377/25]
View answer18. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Taoiseach the way he plans to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in relation to national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [13485/25]
View answer19. Deputy Ruth Coppinger asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [13704/25]
View answer20. Deputy Martin Daly asked the Taoiseach the way he plans to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [13730/25]
View answer21. Deputy Shane Moynihan asked the Taoiseach the way he plans to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [13731/25]
View answer22. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the coordination role of his Department in national security. [13743/25]
View answer23. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the co-ordination role of his Department in national security; and when the new national security committee will be established. [13752/25]
View answer24. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Taoiseach how he intends to increase the coordination role of his Department in national security. [13819/25]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 14 to 24, inclusive, together.
The programme for Government, Securing Ireland's Future, sets out a number of commitments relating to our national security and defence. The programme acknowledges that we live in a time of geopolitical upheaval and challenges to democracy and the international rules-based order with threats and challenges arising from a dynamic global geopolitical landscape. In this context, the Government will implement a number of measures relating to defence, justice and cybersecurity and improved co-ordination of national security.
I recently approved the establishment of a ministerial national security council, which will comprise the Taoiseach as chair, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Defence and Justice. The council will review strategic national security developments, review progress with delivery of the Government's national security commitments and measures and consider reports on the security situation and security threat levels and any other matters of importance to our national security. The council will met regulatory. Its meetings will be attended by the Secretaries General of the relevant Departments, the Commissioner for An Garda Síochána, the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces, the director of the National Cyber Security Centre and the chiefs of staff of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste.
The current national security committee of officials will remain in place and report to the ministerial national security council for each of its meetings. In addition to its current responsibilities, the national security committee will steer and oversee progress with the delivery of the Government's strategic national security commitment and will report on progress to the ministerial national security council. To support the work of the council and the committee, a new national security secretariat will be established in my Department, which will provide reporting from meetings of the national security committee and the ministerial national security council. The new secretariat will also convene a number of new working groups of the national security committee to bring focused attention to bear on the delivery of actions in the primary areas of national security concern and to identify other matters requiring consideration by the ministerial national security council. The administrative arrangements to give effect to these commitments are currently being carried out.
I welcome the establishment of both the Cabinet security committee and the national security council and the Taoiseach's strong commitment and that in the programme for Government to take seriously the defence and security of the State, something that is very important to this Oireachtas, particularly in light of modern global geopolitical challenges. This is not just about boots on the ground anymore but about cyber threats the State will face and hybrid warfare. I hope the Taoiseach will give us assurances that he will continue to adequately resource the National Cyber Security Centre. We will face a lot more cyber threats. There should be learnings from the experience with the HSE. Four states are responsible for approximately 40% of cyberattacks and the spread of misinformation and disinformation - Russia, China, Iran and North Korea.
Under national security, I raise critical infrastructure in our maritime area. Some 16 transatlantic cables run through Irish waters, carrying 95% of traffic between Europe and North America, which leaves us exposed. As we rightly invest heavily in offshore renewables, it will be critical that if we develop offshore turbines, the security of that sector is also protected. Representing the only constituency that has offshore turbines in our territorial waters, it is critically important that they are protected into the future. In the past two years, there have been a number of instances of Russian vessels operating in Irish waters. In April 2023, two Russian-flagged ships, the Umka and Bahktemir, were detected off the coast of Galway. In May 2023, four Russian naval vessels, including the Admiral Grigorovich, a warship armed with cruise missiles, were located in Irish waters. In November 2024, the Yantar, a spy ship, was observed accompanying the Admiral Golovko. There had to be inspections of some of the pipelines in our waters after that visit. In January 2024, our Air Corps had to be deployed to monitor Russian shadow fleet vessels. Even on 20 March this year, it was reported that Russian-linked ships were seen dropping anchor near some of the undersea cables. I ask the Taoiseach to give us an assurance that the security of that critical undersea infrastructure and offshore renewables will feature as part of the national security committee's work.
I strongly advise people to read George Orwell's book 1984 in which the world is divided into three blocs and governments tell people to live in fear of the others all the time to justify increasing authoritarianism and more expenditure on arms and weapons while working people are kept down and denied the money that is going into weapons and arms, which should go into health, education and housing. That is what is going on - project fear. The Irish Government is trying to pull us into it. I wonder has this sort of hysteria and fearmongering now descended to the strip-searching of peaceful women protestors Dáil Éireann. The group Mothers Against Genocide was on a Mother's Day protest to show solidarity with women and children in Palestine and Lebanon who have been slaughtered over the past 18 months. They had a peaceful sit-down protest and were arrested, very violently in some cases. In some cases, it included Palestinian and Lebanese people who actually suffered the horrors of the past 18 months. Some were strip-searched. According to one description:
I was stripped completely naked and was asked to remove my underwear. When I questioned the necessity of this, I was told I would be forced violently if I did not comply and that they did not want any trouble. After removing my underwear, they looked inside my private areas and touched all my sensitive parts.
Disgraceful.
It is absolutely disgusting. These were peaceful women protestors on a Mother's Day protest. Does the Taoiseach condone that kind of treatment of people who were a threat to nobody? It is absolutely outrageous behaviour. Does the Taoiseach condemn that? Is that where we are heading? Is that the sort of society we are heading for? They were protesting about our continued complicity with the genocide because of US troops in Shannon Airport, Israeli war bombs being sold and the failure to impose sanction on Israel.
These mothers were protesting from Mother's Day. They were protesting in support of the Occupied Territories Bill, which the Taoiseach promised would be passed during the election. They were protesting to stop weapons going through Irish airspace, which continues and is increasing and which the Taoiseach has refused to do anything about. I hope he will support the arms embargo Bill coming up in the Seanad tomorrow.
They were protesting against complicity on the genocide and slaughter that is taking place in Gaza, and how were they treated? They were forcibly removed by the gardaí. Fourteen were arrested and then, like Deputy Boyd Barrett said, what is coming out about how they were treated in the Garda stations is absolutely horrific. I will quote the same person Deputy Boyd Barrett just did. She is a Palestinian woman. Deputy Boyd Barrett has spoken about how she was effectively forced to remove her underwear. Her private parts were touched and looked inside of, and she was subjected to a cavity search. In addition to that, her hijab was confiscated to check if it was allowed before being returned to her. She said, "After the procedures were completed, I was released with a warning that if I participated in any further events, I would be punished, and that this was my only chance." What sort of repressive State is this that is operating in such a way? This needs immediate condemnation from the Garda. We need to be assured that people have the right to protest without being treated in such a way.
Members of Mothers Against Genocide were protesting against the utterly despicable ongoing genocide. A number of serious allegations have been made. I ask that the Taoiseach look into this incredibly serious matter. Everybody believes this could have been dealt with better.
We all accept that in this State, like many others, there are huge issues with regard to hybrid and cyber threats, whether we are talking about the impact drug cartels are having, trade tariffs at this point in time and telecommunications. We need to make sure there is a capacity review into how we deal with this. We also know there has been underfunding of the Defence Forces for many years, which has led to a huge recruitment and retention issue. All this does need to be addressed but we also have a duty to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice while wearing the uniform, sometimes, like Private Seán Rooney, while on United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, operations. Has the Taoiseach an update on the engagement with the UN on the request made by the Dublin coroner through the Government? The Tánaiste made contact with the UN recently in this regard but is the Government any further on with the information being provided to the coroner? This information has been promised to the family. I do realise that the family wish to be out when the next court sitting happens. We all need to see justice for Seán Rooney.
The national security of our country is being breached by increased requests for weapons flight exemptions. However, it seems that mothers are the biggest threat to security judging by the actions yesterday. I, too, want to put on the record the utterly outrageous treatment of mothers who gave up Mother's Day to peacefully hold a vigil. I was actually going to attend it myself. They had pictures of children who have been brutally killed in Gaza. They had what they call pillow babies, which are wrapped in swaddling clothes like a baby corpse.
Gardaí arrived at the gate at 5.30 a.m. Nobody needed to use Leinster House at that time by the way. They took the pictures. They kicked the pillow babies in one case, which people found very offensive and insensitive. They then proceeded to arrest the eight women who were having a peaceful sit-down protest. The Taoiseach heard from other TDs that some of those women were strip-searched, and one was subjected to a cavity search. These are deemed sexual violence actions by Amnesty International. Why did that happen?
I thank the Deputy.
Why did this happen at a very peaceful vigil, with displays marking a memorial, in effect, for the people who have been killed in Palestine? These women are nothing but peace-loving. I know many of them personally; one or two live in my constituency.
Thank you, Deputy.
If I could just say this, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle: why did the gardaí ask the women why they were supporting Hamas? Obviously, they are not supporting Hamas by objecting to a genocide. Why did the gardaí also ask: "What do you think would happen to you if you were outside the White House right now?" Is this an international policing memo that is being sent, emanating from the likes of Germany and the White House?
I thank the Deputy. I call Deputy Daly
Is this coming to Ireland as well?
Taoiseach-----
I would like the Taoiseach to object to the way those women were treated.
Deputy Coppinger-----
It was not necessary to do that.
I welcome the establishment of the national security council. It will give co-ordination, weight and urgency to our security requirements with increased risks because of the unstable international environment and the risk of hybrid cyberattacks and hybrid warfare. It is not as if we have not been attacked. The HSE was attacked a number of years ago, There are lots of private institutions and companies that are under-reported, so we are essentially at war with someone. We do not always know who those actors are but there is a suspicion that they are acting on behalf state actors. Our ability to secure our own air and territorial waters is also extremely important. Some people would have us be passive and supine and wait for something to happen to us. The tradition of neutrality for other neutral countries has been investment in their defence and security because that is the mature and responsible approach to take. We must do that. We cannot have this unspoken reliance on third-party states for our defence and security.
Like other colleagues, I welcome the adoption of the ministerial committee on national security. I am particularly keen that this would be up and running and meeting as soon as possible given the current debate about tariffs and trade wars demonstrates Ireland's strategic location from an economic point of view but now, also being on the western side of the European Union, very much from a military point of view, notwithstanding the prevalence of subsea cables and other vital infrastructure around our coasts.
My question relates to the whole-of-government approach that I hope the ministerial security committee will take. The establishment brief for the ministerial committee refers to energy security and economic resilience. It would be good to learn from the Taoiseach about how exactly it will be seen as a whole-of-government approach in terms of involvement of Departments that have responsibility for economic functions, such as the Department with responsibility for energy, for example, and so on because those pieces are key to the economic security and energy resilience at the core of maintaining our national security. It would be good to get an indication from the Taoiseach about how other Departments are feeding into that.
I certainly welcome the committee being established but we need to see the publication of the national security strategy. I have been raising this with the Taoiseach and his predecessors for some time. I also raised as long ago as December 2022 the need for briefings for Opposition leaders on national security matters. That was in the context of the HSE cyberattack, the presence of Russian ships in our economic zone and serious concerns about Russian spy assets in Ireland and activity of organised crime in Ireland. There is a serious lack of democratic oversight of national security, and we should be provided with briefings in opposition, as is standard in other countries, particularly if overseas actors are seeking to undermine our democratic system.
Finally, we have been seeking a response from the Taoiseach to a parliamentary question on the use of encrypted apps within his Department and other Departments. Are there guidelines in Departments on the use of apps like WhatsApp and Signal for the sharing of confidential information? Clearly, we have seen a real concern about that in the US. Can the Taoiseach say if he or, indeed, Government advisers use WhatsApp for co-ordinating their work?
I echo the comments from Deputies Bacik and Malcolm Byrne on election interference from state and non-state actors. I will comment briefly on alleged Russian interference in elections in Moldova and Romania as an example. We see every day on our Twitter feeds or on various social media platforms various types of misinformation and fake news. Obviously, that is most critically effective in and around election times in various countries, but what are we doing here and now to plan into the future for potential election interference from those state actors, in particular those referenced by Deputy Byrne?
I am also deeply concerned about what happened with Mothers Against Genocide protesting peacefully on Mother's Day. I want to give the Taoiseach the time to answer as to why the escalation of this peaceful protest took place. Very powerful advocates on behalf of women and children are being slaughtered in Palestine.
I thank all the Deputies who raised the issue. I will make the fundamental point that the establishment of the national security council is about creating a proper structure to ensure democratic accountability on national security matters, and proper co-ordination between all Departments and between An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces.
As Taoiseach, I will chair it, and also participating will be the Ministers for Justice and Foreign Affairs and Trade. The council will operate at a high level in terms of the national security threats that face the country.
Confidentiality is very important in terms of the conduct of national security threats and how we respond. In time, I would like to see some discussion with the Oireachtas in terms of an Oireachtas role, but it would have to be predicated on confidentiality in terms of our engagement with An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. We do not have a tradition of that in our political system. We must consider the nature of modern threats. It is not project fear, as Deputy Boyd Barrett said. Russia did invade Ukraine, by the way; that is just a fact. It is not project fear; it happened. That act alone has changed the entire mindset around Europe in respect of security, allied to the decision of the US to make it very clear that its role is changing in terms of being the ultimate security guarantor of the western hemisphere. Therefore, Europe has to seriously look at how exposed it is to any future aggression. Whether or not the Deputy and others like it, the reality is that there are EU member states that see the situation as existential. These are states that formerly experienced the brutality and repression of he Soviet empire. I am speaking of Poland, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. They do not want ever again to be under the rule of a jackboot regime that suppresses civil rights, civil expression and political expression, and where, if people speak out, they are put into a jail straight away. They do not want that.
It is not project fear. That is a bit too simplistic in terms of what is going on. In some respects, we are seeing a growth in autocracy across the world, with similar methodologies and similar approaches to international relations. We have to protect our own democratic structures, as Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan said, and the Electoral Commission is working on that. As Deputy Shane Moynihan said, we also must protect our economic infrastructure and our energy infrastructure. Modern methods of disruption mean warfare does not have to be waged conventionally. It can be done through cyber means to devastating effects, as we found out following the attack on our health service during the Covid-19 period. That was devastating.
On the maritime front, which was raised by Deputy Malcolm Byrne, the subsea cables and energy interconnectors are very important. The decision regarding a national gas reserve is a security decision - an energy security decision - whereby if anything happens to our interconnectors, we need backup to keep the Irish economy going and, basically, to keep the lights on in households and in industry. It is an expensive thing to have to do but we must do it. It would be irresponsible to take a chance in respect of that.
Regarding the Mothers Against Genocide protest, there is absolutely no issue with protests - none whatsoever. I am informed that there was engagement with a number of protestors who were blocking the entrance to Leinster House. Why does that have to happen? People can protest on the left-hand side, the right-hand side or across the road.
They said they were going to leave after one hour.
They do not have to protest at all. We had protests a year or two ago that were quite violent.
Do not compare the two.
I am not saying the Mothers Against Genocide protesters were doing that; they were not. However, everybody in this House railed against the Garda for not having operational procedures to ensure access to, and egress from, Leinster House.
These protestors were sitting down.
I did not interrupt the Deputies. Protestors do not have to block the gates of Leinster House.
They said they would leave after one hour.
What happened then was the Garda gave a direction under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act. That is what the Garda formally did. There was no physical engagement; gardaí just gave a direction. I am informed that the individuals were given a period of time to adhere to the direction. That direction was not complied with and 11 people were then arrested for offences contrary to section 8 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act. All 11 of them have received adult cautions. Additionally, three people were arrested for alleged offences under section 6, dealing with threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place, section 9, wilful obstruction, and section 19, assault or obstruction of a peace officer. I will follow up with the Minister for Justice in terms of the assertions and allegations that have been made today in the House. I do not have any background to that but I will follow up on it because I do not understand the necessity for any strip-searching or whatever.
The Deputies again used that phrase, which they use with abandon, where they accuse people of complicity in genocide. That is a great old slogan but it is a horrible assertion.
Israeli war bonds. That is complicity. Absolutely it is.
It is a horrible assertion. It is a demonstrably false assertion and a misreading that is absolutely wrong. It should not be made.
Israeli war bonds.
Munitions are being brought through our airspace.
Deputies complain from time to time about assertions made about them and others. That assertion is very fundamentally wrong. It speaks to a kind of philosophy and mindset that is about how they can blame the Government or Irish parliamentarians for what is going on in Gaza and not the Israeli Government.
Will the Taoiseach go back to the actual protest he was asked about?
Those Deputies' approach always seems to be, "Let us blame the Irish Government", rather than putting the blame where the fault lies. They are attempting to drive a wedge between the Irish people and the Irish public representatives who are not of their persuasion.
What about the Mother's Day protestors who were strip-searched?
If the Taoiseach had kept his election promises, he would not be asked these questions.
