Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 2022

Logainmneacha na Gaeltachta: Plé (Atógáil)

Chairman

Tá ceithre chomhalta i láthair agus Teachta Dála agus Seanadóir san áireamh. Feicim go bhfuil an Teachta Marc Ó Cathasaigh ag teacht isteach go fíorúil. Liom anseo sa seomra tá an Seanadóir Niall Ó Donnghaile agus an Teachta Catherine Connolly. Táimid ag tnúth le cúpla comhalta eile. Níl leithscéal ar bith faighte againn.

Fearaim fáilte roimh chomhaltaí an choiste agus na comhaltaí eile nach baill den chomhchoiste iad atá le teacht isteach fós, agus dár ndóigh roimh na finnéithe atá anseo linn inniu freisin. Gan iad, bheadh sé deacair an obair seo a dhéanamh. I dtús báire, cuirim fáilte roimh Dara Keogh, príomhfheidhmeannach, agus Liam Irwin, cathaoirleach GeoDirectory; Cyril McGrane, stiúrthóir um thrádáil idirnáisiúnta do ghnó poist agus beartán, An Post; agus Alan Dignam, stiúrthóir tráchtála Eircode. Gabhaim buíochas leo as teacht anseo agus as ucht bheith linn ag an gcruinniú inniu. Tá na finnéithe ar fad ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ó sheomra coiste 4 laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais. Caithfidh mé dul tríd roinnt rialacha sula thosaímid ar an ngnó ceart.

Déanfaimid ár mbreathnú ar an bhforáil dhlithiúil go n-úsáidtear logainmneacha Gaeilge amháin ar logainmneacha na Gaeltachta. Sula leanfaimid ar aghaidh, tá dualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a leagan faoi bhráid na bhfinnéithe agus na gcomhaltaí atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú inniu. Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe, do bhaill fhoirne agus don lucht féachana a ngutháin shoghluaiste a mhúchadh le linn an chruinnithe mar gur féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste mar atá á dhéanamh ag cuid acu cheana féin, nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams, ar an gcoinníoll, i gcás cruinnithe phoiblí, gur óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin. Is riachtanas bunreachtúil é sin. Nuair atá comhaltaí ag freastal óna gcuid oifigí, ba chóir dóibh a bhfíseáin a bheith ar siúl an t-am go léir agus iad féin le feiceáil ar an scáileán. Baineann an coinníoll seo le finnéithe freisin da mbeadh siad anseo go fíorúil ach tá na finnéithe go léir sa seomra cruinnithe inniu. Ba chóir dóibh siúd atá ag freastal trí Microsoft Teams cinnte a dhéanamh de go bhfuil an micreafón múchta acu nuair nach bhfuil siad ag labhairt linn sa choiste.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe chomh maith go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt. Molaim d'fhinnéithe, go mór mhór iad siúd atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ón taobh amuigh, a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba chóir dóibh amhlaidh a dhéanamh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuireann siad faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon an cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, duine nó eintiteas a cháineadh, nó líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh nó tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha ar shlí ina bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar dóibh éirí as an ráiteas láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfeadh siad leis an ordú sin. Tá rialacha an chruinnithe léite agam. Feicim go bhfuil an Seanadóir Seán Kyne linn anois go fíorúil. Anois, tosóimid ar ghnó an lae inniu. I dtús báire, iarraim ar Dara Keogh nó Liam Irwin labhairt os comhair an chomhchoiste thar cheann GeoDirectory.

Mr. Liam Irwin

A Chathaoirligh, a Theachtaí agus a Sheanadóirí, gabhaim buíochas libh as ucht an gcuireadh buaileadh libh inniu. Má tá sé ceart go leor, tabharfaidh mé an ráiteas i mBéarla. Bhí mo chuid Gaeilge go han-mhaith uair amháin ach de bharr easpa cleachtaidh, níl sé chomh maith sin anois.

We are pleased to be here to explain the role and remit of An Post GeoDirectory DAC in providing geocoded addresses to the market, including to Eircode. In particular, we will address the issues surrounding the provision of this information for addresses in Gaeltacht areas. I am accompanied by Mr. Dara Keogh, chief executive officer of GeoDirectory, and we will both endeavour to address the committee's queries as best we can.

GeoDirectory DAC is a jointly owned subsidiary company of An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI. Its board consists of five directors. I am the board’s chairperson and Mr. Cyril McGrane, who is here representing An Post, is one of the co-directors. The primary role of GeoDirectory is to supply a geocoded postal buildings database to the market.

The GeoDirectory database is made up of approximately 2 million buildings and 2.3 million addresses. The 2.3 million addresses are made up of between 2.1 million residential addresses and 200,000 commercial addresses. The data is updated on an ongoing basis with a rolling update running throughout the calendar year from January to December. On average, we make about 500,000 changes to the data annually. We supply our main data product to the market four times a year, in January, April, July and October.

There are two address databases within GeoDirectory, namely a geographic address database and an official postal address database. Both of these address databases are in English and, where available, Irish. It is important to note that the GeoDirectory data is only ever a picture in time and historic in nature. We are always trying to keep up with new developments and address changes. While we endeavour to capture as many addresses as possible in Irish, this is not always possible. For example, when we visit a new housing development, addresses may not be fully assigned.

In GeoDirectory, we rely on the teams in An Post and OSI to capture, confirm and update the address information for both the Irish and English versions of address. An Post supplies address information and OSI provides boundary and official townland names. Our relationship with both of these bodies is critical to our success, and I acknowledge the very positive relationship we have with them.

Regarding the Irish-language version of an address, we use the Irish version as provided by Logainm.ie wherever possible. Logainm.ie is the expert in this field and has the understanding, skills, and experience to provide the best Irish translation. Our most recent update of Irish-language translated addresses was received from Logainm.ie in February 2022 and covers the 2020-21 period. This recent data will be included in the records throughout 2022. We anticipate that further updates will be received from Logainm.ie on an ongoing basis and these will be updated to the relevant address databases at the earliest possible time.

In parallel to the data supplied by Logainm.ie, our database is also continuously updated through information collected on an ongoing basis by An Post. This on-the-ground information is acquired through local knowledge, local road and area signage, contact with local authorities where required, and the reviewing of OSI townland names.

Looking specifically at Gaeltacht areas and using the Gaeltacht boundary set made available by OSI, GeoDirectory has 60,790 addresses in Gaeltacht areas. We have entries in our Irish table for all of those addresses. However, if any part of an address is not translated, it is provided in English, for example, when a business or house name is in English. We continue to work with all parties to increase and improve the quantity and quality of addresses as Gaeilge.

GeoDirectory provides these addresses to all our customers, including Eircode, and they decide which format and language is used to deliver their services. I must emphasise that the role of GeoDirectory is to provide as comprehensive as possible a database of all available address formats. Our company cannot and does not seek to influence the versions or features of address records that are used by the various service providers.

In summary, GeoDirectory has ongoing and robust data collection processes that include both Irish and English versions of addresses. Where possible, we use the official Irish names received from Logainm.ie and will continue to work with our partners to ensure we have the most up-to-date and comprehensive database of Irish addresses.

Mr. Alan Dignam

I too will read my statement in English if the Chairman will permit it.

Chairman

Ceart go leor.

Mr. Alan Dignam

Chairman and members, I am pleased to appear before the committee to answer any questions you may have concerning the operation of Eircode. I understand the committee wishes to consider matters raised in the reports of an Coimisinéir Teanga concerning Gaeltacht placenames that continue to be available in English alongside their Irish versions in Eircode. We are aware of the issues raised by the commissioner and hope to help the committee with its inquiries today.

Capita Business Support Services Ireland was appointed by the then Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in 2013 to develop and manage the postcode system for Ireland as the postcode management licenceholder. The system was branded as "Eircode" and Capita Business Support Services Ireland operates Eircode, including the Eircode finder online application.

The Eircode database is constructed using data provided by An Post GeoDirectory, which Capita has licensed. This is the sole address database that populates the Eircode system. It is stipulated by the terms of Capita Business Support Services Ireland's agreement to operate the Eircode system. Eircode has no authority or remit to alter these addresses. Eircode is authorised to assign alphanumerical codes known as Eircodes to postal addresses within the State from this database and to maintain and update the Eircode database, which is available to license and provides the functionality behind the Eircode finder web application.

Concerning addresses in the Gaeltacht areas, Eircode uses the postal addresses as indicated in the An Post GeoDirectory database. When searching for Eircodes or addresses in Gaeltacht areas using the finder application, the addresses default to the Irish-language versions. To view the English-language versions of such addresses, users must click on a separate tab marked "English".

Each quarter, we receive a list of new or updated addresses from An Post GeoDirectory which are then integrated into the Eircode system. In operating Eircode, we take considerable care to ensure we correctly identify the addresses that are situated in Gaeltacht areas and to specify that they default to the Irish-language version when searched for in the Eircode finder. Additionally, all Eircode web pages are available in Irish, and Irish-language customer service options are available to allow people to have their queries answered via email, post or phone in Irish.

While addresses in Gaeltacht areas default to Irish-language versions, Capita Business Support Services Ireland is not entitled to unilaterally remove English-language versions of these addresses from the Eircode system or otherwise alter the An Post GeoDirectory addresses on which Eircode relies. We hold a contract to operate Eircode as a public service provider and perform the contract according to its terms. As the committee will be aware, an Coimisinéir Teanga's monitoring report, which was published in July last year, outlines that any statutory language obligations relating to the use of Gaeltacht placenames fall under the remit of the Department on the Environment, Climate and Communications, and not that of Eircode or An Post.

I am nevertheless conscious of the importance of the committee's work in ensuring adherence to the statutory language obligations. Therefore, I welcome the opportunity to provide responses to any inquiries members of the committee may have or to offer any necessary clarifications.

Mr. Cyril McGrane

Níl a lán Gaeilge agam, therefore, I also wish to give my response in English. I am the director of international trade for An Post’s mails and parcels business, as well as a member of the board of GeoDirectory. I am glad to be here to discuss the issues at hand. I offer our apologies for the delay in appearing before the committee, which was largely around the practicalities of the various notice parties being available here. Certainly, no disrespect to the committee was intended.

GeoDirectory is jointly owned by An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, and its primary role is to supply a geocoded buildings database to the market. As has been said, An Post’s official postal address database is one of the data sources used by GeoDirectory. Much of the relevant points for discussion have already been covered by Mr. Irwin, but I want to make a few points about An Post. Each year, my colleagues deliver 405 million mail items to 2.35 million address points throughout the country. That amounts to more than 2 million items per day. No other postal service in Europe kept as high a percentage of delivery routes open, delivering every route, every working day, and keeping almost every post office open during the pandemic in the interests of social inclusion and supporting communities around Ireland. We deliver mail addressed in Irish or English throughout the country.

Our aim has always been, and will continue to be, that mail addressed in Irish receives the same quality of service as mail addressed in English. Our standard operating procedures for staff contain methods for dealing with letters containing Irish addresses. All of this is in a context where many of our staff are primarily English speaking and increasingly some do not have Irish or English as their first language. As an aside, having spent a holiday around Ireland on the south and west coast last week, my wife and I found ourselves sending a daily postcard to our daughter who was in Coláiste UISCE in Belmullet. We dutifully posted one each day from various locations such as Dublin, Castlebar, Clonakilty and Kinsale, and the mail, which was addressed fully in Irish, was delivered the following day in each case, as indeed it should be.

The address and location data mentioned by Mr. Irwin, including Irish location names, are captured in a variety of ways such as during route updates with delivery staff, on the ground from street or development nameplates, from planning sites and brochures for new developments, or as a result of an address-related query. Where there is an Irish name within a designated Gaeltacht area, we record the locality in Irish along with its English alternative. This can include a spelling variation, an abbreviation, an alternative name or other versions of an Irish language name or Irish language abbreviation. Our website, www.anpost.ie, offers a facility for checking local addresses in both Irish and English.

As has been said, we at An Post have an robust system in place for delivering mail in Irish or English and within the Gaeltacht areas. We work with both Irish and English versions of addresses and the many variants of both that exist throughout the country. As with GeoDirectory, we use the official Irish names received from logainm.ie and we continue to work towards the most efficient way of delivering the mail to our Gaeltacht customers. We also continue to develop and improve the data and local knowledge on which we rely so heavily, conscious of the needs of Gaeltacht communities, working within and as part of those communities, and supporting the national language.

Chairman

Tá a fhios agam go mbeidh vótaí ar siúl sa Seanad. Tá an Teach ag déileáil le reachtaíocht don lá ar fad. B'fhéidir go mbeidh na Seanadóirí ag teacht isteach agus ag dul amach.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil ardmheas agam ar an méid oibre atá á dhéanamh ag An Post. Is seirbhís iontach í An Post agus gabhaim buíochas leo siúd a bhí páirteach as an obair a rinneadh le linn na paindéime. Is deas na finnéithe a fheiceáil os ár gcomhair inniu.

Baineann ceist an lae inniu le seoltaí trí Ghaeilge. Is é an Coimisinéir Teanga a d’ardaigh an cheist seo linn agus sa tuarascáil a chuir sé os comhair na Dála. Tuigim an pointe a rinne Alan Dignam go bhfuil an fhreagracht ar an Roinn go huile is go hiomlán ó thaobh an dualgais. Aontaím leis agus tá sé ráite go soiléir ag an gcoimisinéir, ach táimid anseo inniu le fáil amach cén dul chun cinn atá déanta. Ní mór dom a rá go bhfuilim beagáinín measctha suas. Má tá mé féin measctha suas, ní féidir liom é a mhíniú do dhaoine ar an talamh. An bhfuil dul chun cinn suntasach déanta ó thaobh na gceart atá ag gach duine atá sa Ghaeltacht nó a bhfuil Gaeilge aige no aici na seoltaí a bheith i nGaeilge? Ní ceist chasta í seo. Tá sé suntasach gur ar an lá seo seacht mbliana ó shin, ag dul siar go 2015, a sheol an tAire ag an am, Alex White, an córas nua seo. Seacht mbliana ina dhiaidh sin, táimid fós i mbun oibre chun a fháil amach an bhfuil na cearta bainte amach.

Dúirt an Coimisinéir Teanga gur "léirigh imscrúdú a chuir m'Oifig i gcrích i 2015 gur sháraigh an Roinn Comhshaoil, Aeráide agus Cumarsáide an dualgas reachtúil teanga maidir le cur i bhfeidhm a scéime teanga". Sháraigh an Roinn - ní na finnéithe - an dlí ach tá ról lárnach ag na finnéithe ann. Ina thuarascáil, leanann an coimisinéir ag cur in iúl dúinn na fadhbanna agus an chumarsáid a bhí aige leis an Roinn. Chuir sé próiseas faireacháin ar siúl freisin. De réir mar a thuigim, agus b’fhéidir go bhfuil mé mícheart, níl mórán dul chun cinn déanta fós. Tá na finnéithe os comhair an choiste anois agus ba mhaith liom mo thuiscint a dheimhniú.

Tá An Post agus OSI anseo, agus tá an comhlacht GeoDirectory ann. Faoi sin tá conradh príobháideach leis an gcomhlacht a bhaineann le Alan Dignam. An é sin an fráma? Tá na finnéithe ag rá nach bhfuil freagracht ar bith orthu ach is ar an Roinn atá sé. Bhí an Roinn i dteagmháil leo le seacht mbliana anuas, agus i ndáiríre roimhe sin ó 2008, ach ní bhaineann sé sin leis na finnéithe. Ó 2015 go dtí an lá inniu, bhí an Roinn i dteagmháil leo go minic ó thaobh chearta bunúsacha an duine go mbeadh na seoltaí i nGaeilge. Tá na finnéithe i mbun bunachar sonraí GeoDirectory. An bhfuil na fadhbanna a bhaineann leis an mbunachar sonraí réitithe? An bhfuil na seoltaí i nGaeilge anois? An bhfuil an fhadhb réitithe?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tosóidh mé agus b'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh na finnéithe eile isteach i mo dhiaidh. Maidir leis an struchtúr, tá an Teachta ceart lena overview ach níl Capita ag obair go díreach do GeoDirectory. Tá an conradh leis an Roinn.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ach faigheann an comhlacht sin na sonraí ó GeoDirectory.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Faigheann gach éinne na sonraí ó GeoDirectory. An ról atá againne ná an t-eolas a-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

A bhailiú.

Mr. Liam Irwin

A bhailiú agus a thabhairt amach do gach éinne a bhfuil suim acu ann, go mór mór An Post agus Capita agus a lán comhlachtaí eile sa atá sa postal business.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim. Tá uasdátú i gceist an t-am uilig, nach bhfuil? Updating.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá. Gach lá agus-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Cúpla uair sa bhliain.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Cúpla uair sa bhliain don database mór

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim ach tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ó thaobh na bearnaí agus na fadhbanna a d’aimsigh an Coimisinéir Teanga. An bhfuil na sonraí a bhaineann le daoine sa Ghaeltacht agus seoltaí na ndaoine ar an mbunachar i nGaeilge anois?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá mórchuid na seoltaí sa Ghaeltacht i nGaeilge agus táimid ag déanamh gach iarracht é sin a fheabhsú agus a mhéadú ag t-am go léir. B’fhéidir go mbeidh Dara Keogh in ann cabhrú liom. Níl mise i GeoDirectory ach le dhá bhliain anuas. Mar a tharla, thosaigh mé ann ar an lá a thosaigh an pandemic.

Mr. Dara Keogh

Beidh mé ag caint i mBéarla. We have as many addresses in all of Ireland in Irish as we can for as much of the address as we can. That applies to everywhere and not just to the Gaeltacht. We are trying to have an all-Ireland approach here in having everything, or as much as we can, in Irish. We have a dual language database both in Irish and English. In terms of the Gaeltacht specifically, there are some things that are named in English still and we have to record them as being in English. For example, business names can be recorded in English. We have to record the business name as it is because that is what people know it as. We break down the address into various components, and one of those would be the localities, on which those in logainm.ie work very hard, but some of them are still in the process of being translated. As we heard in the opening statement by the Chair, there are at least 500,000 changes made per annum on a 2.3 million database. It is very fluid, there is a lot of change and we are always trying to catch up on work and keep it up to date and current. The vast majority of the addresses in the Gaeltacht areas are going to be available in Irish but there are some that will not be and therefore we are still always working towards finishing.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim é sin agus léigh mé go sonrach na ráitis tosaigh, ach tá mé ag breathnú ar Tuarascáil Faireacháin-Monitoring Report 2020 2021 an Choimisinéir Teanga. Tá sé ráite ann, agus ní bhaineann na finnéithe leis an Roinn ach tiocfaidh mé chucu:

...thug an Roinn le fios go raibh cúrsaí ag bogadh ar aghaidh leis an uasdátú ar na bearnaí [so tá bearnaí] sna leaganacha Gaeilge de logainmneacha Gaeltachta atá sa bhunachar sonraí ar a bhfuil an córas Eircode ag brath. Cé gur léir dom go bhfuil iarracht déanta ag an Roinn Comhshaoil ... [agus leanann sé ar aghaidh leis an teideal] teacht ar réiteach sa chás ... trí iarracht a dhéanamh iachall a chur ar an bPost [so iachall a chur ar na finnéithe] a bhunachar sonraí seoltaí a leasú, ionas gur i nGaeilge amháin a bheadh gach logainm Gaeltachta ábhartha, is léir nár éirí leis na hiarrachtaí sin.

Sin an Coimisinéir Teanga ag rá go bhfuil dul chun cinn ach gur léir nár éirigh leis na hiarrachtaí sin. Tá an dualgas ar na finnéithe go mbeadh an bunachar agus na seoltaí a bhaineann leis an nGaeltacht trí Ghaeilge. An féidir leis na finnéithe sonraí a thabhairt dom maidir leis an dul chun cinn agus cé mhéid dul chun cinn eile atá ag teastáil? Tá dualgas reachtúil i gceist anseo.

Mr. Dara Keogh

To go back to the structure, GeoDirectory is a recipient of the addresses from An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland and they collect them on the ground. Neither An Post nor Ordnance Survey Ireland are the legal entities that assign addresses. That has to be remembered as well. That is the responsibility of the local authority. A series of events has to happen for an address to be created so we can capture it. The reality on the ground is that people change their addresses and we have to capture those changes as well. While people sometimes see an address as being a very solid and fixed thing, it is quite fluid and changes a lot. While we are saying the vast majority of addresses in Gaeltacht areas are in Irish, there are some that are not because they are recorded in English still. That needs to change and they need to be translated officially so we can capture them. We will capture them and we will include them.

The reality is there are business names in English and we have to record them as they are because that is what people know them as. Businesses want to be found, they want their customers to find them and that is what they call themselves, so it is in English at the moment. When a new housing estate or house is being created, for example, it can take a while for an address to be established and we are not sure what the address is at all. It is vague in both Irish and English, so we are waiting for that to be finished. As I alluded to, we break the address into different components, and there is not the full level of Irish available yet for some of those components because they are in the process of being translated. When they are translated, we capture them. The vast majority in Gaeltacht areas are as Gaeilge. We are always striving for perfection and completeness and chasing that goal. It is a fundamental goal of GeoDirectory throughout the country and not just in Gaeltacht areas.

In answer to the Deputy’s question, An Post cannot deliver to us a full Irish language version because it is not officially translated yet in all cases. It is progressing and the level of English is decreasing all the time, and as it happens, we capture the address and include it. As referenced by the Chair, logainm.ie is the body that does the townlands and what we call localities. It does a great job under difficult circumstances because it is quite a complicated process it has to follow.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá sé deacair toisc go bhfuil an dá theanga i gceist agus tá ráiteas i nGaeilge agus ráiteas eile i mBéarla. Tá an chuma ar cheann amháin de na ráitis gur Google Translate a úsáideadh, ach b’fhéidir go bhfuil mé ró-shoiniciúil. Tá sé deacair é seo a thuiscint.

Leanfaidh mé orm leis an gCoimisinéir Teanga agus baineann an méid a dúirt sé le An Post. Tá mé chun díriú isteach arís ar an dualgas atá ar An Post. Is cuma liom cé atá chun an an cheist a fhreagairt:

Cé gur léir dom go bhfuil iarracht déanta ag an Roinn Comhshaoil ... teacht ar réiteach sa chás seo trí iarracht a dhéanamh iachall a chur ar an bPost [so tá An Post faoi scrúdú anseo] a bhunachar sonraí seoltaí a leasú, ionas gur i nGaeilge amháin a bheadh gach logainm Gaeltachta ábhartha, is léir nár eirí leis na hiarrachtaí sin.

An féidir leis na finnéithe freagra a thabhairt ar an gceist seo? Na blianta 2020 agus 2021 atá i gceist. B’fhéidir go bhfuil gach rud i gceart anois. B’fhéidir nach bhfuil an ceart agam. B’fhéidir go bhfuil rudaí ceartaithe ach níl a fhios agam. Tá sé seo dírithe ar An Post.

Mr. Cyril McGrane

What Mr. Keogh is saying, and it is important to note, is that this is a living breathing database and we continue to strive to improve it all of the time.

The sheer number of changes we make annually give credence to that statement. As Mr. Keogh rightly says, we are not 100% of the way there. There are many moving parts. While one could say it is An Post or OSI-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim é sin ach tá an Coimisinéir Teanga ag déileáil leis an gceist seo ó 2015. Níl mé ag iarraidh go mbeidh gach rud curtha ina cheart thar oíche ach táimid ag caint faoi seacht mbliana. Maidir le moving parts, aontaím le Cyril McGrane ach cad é an tslat tomhais atá ag An Post? An féidir a rá linn go sonrach cad iad na rudaí atá bainte amach chun é seo a cheartú agus cad atá le déanamh?

Deputy Dara Calleary

Is cosúil nach bhfuil mórán measa ag na finnéithe ar an gCoimisinéir Teanga nó nach bhfuil tuiscint acu ar cé chomh tábhachtach is atá a oifig. Tá sé ar a gcás le blianta anois agus tá sé fós ag gearán. De réir a thuarascála bliantúla, tá an fhadhb seo fós ann. An dtuigeann na finnéithe cé chomh tábhachtach is atá a oifig, a sheasamh agus a obair do mhuintir na Gaeilge agus do mhuintir na Gaeltachta?

Mr. Cyril McGrane

I am not complaining. We take this very seriously. The fact we continue to update our database daily, weekly and monthly is proof of that. Our quarterly update that comes through GeoDirectory also proves that. It is a fact we are continually updating that database. With regard to our commitment to the Irish language right across our estate, all the material available in both English and Irish in our post offices shows we take our responsibilities in respect of the Irish language extremely seriously, as we will continue to.

The point I am making is this is not fixed in time. It continues. We referenced this earlier. Through our constant updating and working with logainm.ie, we know there are different interpretations and spellings throughout the different Gaeltacht regions of Ireland. We have to take all of those factors into account and, while doing all of this, ensure we meet our obligations in respect of next-day service. The point I was making is we are doing that. We are confident that letters addressed in Irish, or indeed in English, receive that next-day quality service in our Gaeltacht areas through our delivery service units. Many from the local population are employed in those delivery service units and are Irish speakers themselves. With their knowledge, they are helping us all of the time to improve our database. It is constant, however. It does not stop at one point in time at which that is it and it is all done. As Mr. Keogh mentioned, people decide to change the name of their houses. Somebody new may come in and decide to change the name. That new name then enters common parlance and, in turn, we make the change. It is a living breathing database.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an tuiscint cheart ag Cyril McGrane ó thaobh a chuid dualgas. Is é sin an fhadhb. Críochnóidh mé. Ligfidh mé mar sin é.

Tá ceist agam d'Alan Dignam. Rinneadh sáriarracht ráiteas tosaigh a thabhairt dúinn i nGaeilge ach níl a fhios agam cé a rinne nó a d'aistrigh é. Tá sé deacair an leagan Gaeilge a thuiscint. Níl a fhios agam cad atá tarlaithe. Tá cuid aige measctha suas. Níl sé ag cur le soiléireacht. Is é Alan Dignam stiúrthóir commercial Capita Business Support Services, an ea? Tá an conradh Eircode ag an gcomhlacht sin. Dúradh sa ráiteas scríofa "tá gach suíomh Eircode ar fáil as gaeilge". Ag an bpointe seo, géillfidh mé. B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh mé ar ais níos déanaí. Tá sé deacair leis an nGaeilge.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe agus gabhaim buíochas leo as a ráitis. Tuigim uathu go bhfuil os cionn 2 milliún seoladh ann. An bhfuil aon tuairim ar an líon acu atá lochtach sa database? An bhfuil tomhas déanta ar cé chomh mór nó beag is atá an fhadhb? Gan dabht, is fadhb é aon seoladh lochtach a bheith ann, ach an bhfuil tuairim ar an líon seoltaí lochtacha atá sa database?

Mr. Dara Keogh

I do not understand what the Deputy means by a faulty address.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Táimid ag bualadh i dtreo an nub nó an core anois. An aithníonn Dara Keogh gur seoladh lochtach é seoladh sa Ghaeltacht nach bhfuil sa Ghaelainn amháin?

Mr. Dara Keogh

Our objective is to have addresses in both Irish and English. It should be-----

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Ach cad a tharlaíonn nuair nach bhfuil ach ainm amháin ar an áit? Is cosúil nach nglacann Dara Keogh leis gur locht atá ann nuair atá seoladh sa Ghaeltacht i dteanga nach an Ghaelainn í.

Mr. Dara Keogh

If it is only in Irish, we will have it only in Irish, if that is the question.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Gabh mo leithscéal?

Mr. Dara Keogh

If the address is only available in Irish and there is no English version, we will have it available in Irish.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Cén dearcadh atá ann maidir le seoltaí sa Ghaeltacht atá as Gaeilge agus i dteanga eile?

Mr. Dara Keogh

It is a dual language database.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Mar sin, ní ghlactar leis go bhfuil fadhb nó locht ann má tá seoladh sa Ghaeltacht i dteanga eile seachas an Ghaelainn.

Mr. Dara Keogh

As I answered previously, parts of some addresses in Gaeltacht areas are only in English. We have to record it as it is.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

De réir logainm.ie, níl ach leagan amháin d'ainm áite. Is logainm.ie a leagann síos ainm áite. Má leagann sé síos an t-ainm sin as Gaelainn, surely is é sin an leagan a bheadh in úsáid. Is cosúil nach nglacann na finnéithe leis go bhfuil fadhb nó locht ann mura bhfuil an leagan sin in úsáid. An bhfuil aon tuairim acu ar an líon seoltaí mar seo atá ann?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Is é an tuiscint atá agam ná go bhfuil formhór na-----

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tá sé deacair rud a cheartú mura nglactar leis go bhfuil locht ann nó mura bhfuil a fhios ag na finnéithe cén líon de sheoltaí lochtacha atá ann. Is é sin atáim ag féachaint air.

Chairman

Fan soicind, a Theachta. Tá Liam Irwin ag iarraidh freagra a thabhairt. Bhí sé ag fanacht ar an aistriúchán.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Bheadh ainm na príomh shráide i nDaingean Uí Chúis ann sa Ghaeilge ach bheadh leagan Béarla ann freisin, is é sin Main Street, Dingle. Is é an scéal céanna i leith Thrá Lí, atá lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Bheadh idir Shráid an Chaisleáin agus Castle Street in English ann.

Is ag teacht ó GeoDirectory atá an dualgas atá orainn na seoltaí go léir a bhailiú, a chur isteach i database agus iad a thabhairt do gach aon duine, go mór mór An Post agus Capita. Is é sin an dualgas atá orainne iad a bhailiú, a cheartú agus a chur ar fáil.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Conas a cheartaítear iad? An mbraitheann Liam Irwin gur lochtach é seoladh Gaeltachta a bheith as Béarla?

Chairman

Níor chuala gach duine é sin toisc go raibh Liam Irwin fós ag labhairt.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Bhí Liam Irwin ag rá go mbailíonn GeoDirectory iad, go gceartaítear iad agus go gcuirtear isteach sa database iad. Conas a cheartaítear iad mura n-aithníonn GeoDirectory gur seoladh lochtach é má tá sé as Béarla sa Ghaeltacht?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Is do An Post é seo níos mó ná muidne ach ní aithnímid go bhfuil an seoladh mícheart air, más Dingle atá air, i leagan Béarla an database. Táimid ag déanamh gach iarracht an leagan ceart a bheith ann as Gaeilge, ach táimid-----

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Is é sin bun agus barr an scéil mar sin. Ní aithnítear go bhfuil sé lochtach.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Níl mé cinnte.

Mr. Cyril McGrane

I am struggling with the question, because, as Mr. Keogh has said, it is a dual language database. There can be elements of an address which have not been translated, but we are constantly updating the database as we get new information and further detail.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tuigim é sin ach níl ach leagan amháin sa Ghaeltacht. Níl ach an Ghaelainn ar an ainm. Ní bheadh leagan Béarla air sa Ghaeltacht. Tuigim go bhfuil database dhátheangach ag GeoDirectory ach ní bheadh ach input agus ainm amháin trí Ghaelainn sa Ghaeltacht. Má tá aon rud eile ann, cé acu an Spáinnis, an Fhraincis nó an Béarla atá air, ní hé an t-ainm oifigiúil atá ann.

Mr. Dara Keogh

I will give the Deputy some examples of house names in Gaeltacht areas.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Ní bheinn róbhuartha mar gheall ar ainmneacha na dtithe. Díreoimid isteach ar na bailte fearainn mar d'fhéadfadh aon rud a bheith mar ainm ar thigh. Ní gá go mbeadh brí leis in aon chur. D'fhéadfadh fear an tí agus bean an tí ainmneacha a mheascadh le chéile agus é sin a úsáid mar ainm an tí. Is cuma. An féidir linn díriú isteach ar an seoladh in ionad ainm an tí? Is é an seoladh an leagan oifigiúil.

Mr. Dara Keogh

Maybe this is a point of difference and understanding that would help. For us, the house name is part of the address. The business name is part of the address. It might be helpful if I break the address down. First there is a county and then a townland, or what we call a locality. I think the Deputy is referring to townlands. Then there is a thoroughfare, be it street, road, grove, court and that kind of stuff. Then there is house name and number and what we call building groups, where there is a campus in which all buildings are under one name and there are individual addresses within that campus. For us, there is a whole range of different parts of an address that we do not regard as having a full Irish address. If Apple were to move into a Gaeltacht area, we will not call it "Úll". We will call it Apple because that is its business name and what everyone knows it by. However, that means the address is not 100% in Irish. That is where we are coming from. Maybe that is a point of understanding that would be helpful.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Cloisim a bhfuil á rá ag Dara Keogh. Má leanaimid leis an sampla sin, tá sé soiléir go mbeadh an contae i nGaeilge agus go mbeadh Maigh Chromtha ar an líne roimhe sin agus ní Macroom agus go mbeadh Baile Mhic Íre ann agus ní Ballymakeery. Tá go maith má tá Apple ag teacht go Baile Bhuirne nó Baile Mhic Íre agus má chuirtear an seoladh Apple, Magh Réidh, Baile Bhuirne nó Baile Mhic Íre, Maigh Chromtha, Contae Chorcaí air. Bheinn ag súil i gcónaí gur chinnte go mbeadh an seoladh as Gaelainn. Ní bheadh ach líne amháin a bhféadfadh aon Bhéarla a bheith i gceist leis. Ba chóir go mbeadh sé cruinn go mbeadh na línte eile go léir as Gaelainn.

Mr. Dara Keogh

We agree with that, but we are saying that the fact one part of it is not in Irish means it is not a full Irish address. That is where we are coming from when we say the vast majority of the address is in Irish but not 100% of the address is in Irish.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Ní ainm an tí atá ag cur as dom. Is é an tslí nach bhfuil an seoladh as Gaelainn atá ag cur as dom.

Mr. Dara Keogh

The Deputy broke down the address there in terms of county, town and townland. Most of them will be in Irish, in most counties, including in Gaeltacht areas.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Nuair a deir Dara Keogh "most of them", an é sin le rá go bhfuil sé tar éis é a thomhas agus go bhfuil tuairim aige ar cén líon acu atá ceart agus cén líon atá lochtach?

Mr. Dara Keogh

We do not regard them as being faulty. We regard them as not yet being translated.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Cloisim é sin, ach braithim agus braitheann an pobal go bhfuil siad lochtach. Is cosúil nach n-aontóimid ansin. An bhfuil aon tomhas ag Dara Keogh nuair a deir sé "the vast majority". An bhfuil sé tar éis é a thomhas?

Mr. Dara Keogh

We have not. County measurements are easy, but we have not measured everything in full detail today. Every county will be translated. I would say every town is translated. Not all the thoroughfares are translated. It takes some time. I am very much focusing on the Gaeltacht area. We will have some thoroughfares in the Gaeltacht areas that are awaiting translation. They could be relatively new. We are waiting for them to be translated. Some of the localities or townlands are not yet translated. We are waiting for logainm.ie to do them. The vast majority are done, but there are some that are not. It is an ongoing process.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Má tá siad ag feithimh le logainm.ie, an bhfuil siad ag dul sa tóir air, ag iarraidh é a bhrostú ar aghaidh?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Is ongoing process é. Gabhaim mo leithscéal as an mbéarlachas. Tá na daoine ar an talamh in An Post agus an OSI ag bailiú eolais maidir le seoltaí agus á chur isteach.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tuigim é sin, ach má deir Dara Keogh go bhfuil GeoDirectory ag feithimh le logainmn.ie chun eolas a thabhairt dó agus go bhfuil cúig bliana, sé bliana nó seacht mbliana caite - tá a fhios ag an gcoimsinéir - ar an bhfadhb, an bhfuil siad imithe sa tóir ar logainm.ie, má tá siad ag feithimh leis?

Mr. Liam Irwin

B'fhéidir go bhféadfadh Dara Keogh freagra níos fearr a thabhairt ar an gceist. Déanann logainm.ie an obair atá le déanamh aige. Tógann sé am ach, taobh leis sin, táimid ag bailiú an t-am go léir ó na hoifigigh áitiúla.

Táimid ag bailiú, ag ceartú agus ag méadú air sin ach nílimid ag fanacht ar logainm.ie. Táimid ag déanamh gach iarracht an record a fheabhsú agus a leathnú an t-am go léir. Is multi-pronged approach atá ann chun é a dhéanamh chomh maith agus is féidir agus chomh tapa agus is féidir.

Mr. Dara Keogh

I would add-----

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Táim go breá. Scaoilfidh mé duine éigin eile isteach. Táim okay leis na ceisteanna atá agam. Tuigim nach bhfuiltear ag glacadh leis go bhfuil locht ann ach tá tuiscint níos fearr faighte agam ar an dearcadh agus an cur chuige, so gabhaim buíochas as sin.

Chairman

An bhfuil Dara Keogh ag iarraidh theacht isteach anois?

Mr. Dara Keogh

I just wanted to add one more point to what Mr. Irwin said. We also try to retrofit. We might find we have an Irish translation and then that is updated and changed because of some historical or cultural context, so we have to go back and change the translations as well. It is not just about moving forward. It is about being as accurate as possible. Logainm.ie does that work as well. It also reviews, changes and updates and we try to capture that information and change and update the Irish translations. It is not just a one-time exercise; it is an ongoing programme.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I will speak in English for the sake of ease. The witnesses told Deputy Moynihan the addresses were not faulty; they were just not translated. How many addresses in the databases have not been translated?

Mr. Dara Keogh

In Gaeltacht areas, we are talking about approximately-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

Our responsibility as a committee is for Gaeltacht areas but also for Irish-speaking people, people whose príomhtheanga is Gaeilge. They may not live in Gaeltacht areas but they are equally entitled to a service in their príomhtheanga.

Mr. Dara Keogh

Our objective is to have all addresses in both Irish and English. That is our stated objective and that is our aim. Roughly speaking, we have about 70% of the addresses in both languages. It is pretty comprehensive. While logainm.ie has done a lot of translation in many counties, it does not have full national coverage. Where it has done a translation of a word and we see a similar name somewhere else, we take that translation and transfer it across. We have actively tried to get as much Irish in the database as possible. We flag this on the database so our customers know which are the officials translations and which are our best attempts. The delivery staff in An Post also capture road signs, town names etc. that are in Irish on the street. Sometimes there can be a delay before that is all done. It can be available in English and then in Irish and sometimes it is not available in either and is an inaccurate address, which we work on over time. That is why we have so many changes. There have been 500,000 changes because it is being done on an ongoing basis.

There is another piece of this that makes it even more complicated. People change their addresses and everybody accepts them. There is no national authority telling people something must be their address. Someone can change their address and everybody will just accept that address and move forward with it. Changing a house name, as we mentioned earlier, from Irish to English or from English to Irish, or removing it entirely, is up to the householder. That is just one example. Communities can come together and rename a road and everybody-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

There is a whole process involved. Mr. Keogh presents it as if somebody takes a notion and just changes the name. As we know from this committee, there is a whole process involved.

Mr. Dara Keogh

There is-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

I do not want to mention Dingle - Daingean - or Inishcrone, which took eight or nine years. It is not as if it is landed on people. Changes to road names are similar. They have to be processed.

Mr. Dara Keogh

There is an official process, which is followed, but there are also unofficial processes whereby people just do it. Communities come together and change things and just tell everybody the name is changed. That is what happens. Somebody who moves into a house with a name they do not like can change it. They do not have to officially go anywhere. They just change it.

Chairman

They cannot change the road or the address.

Mr. Dara Keogh

The committee will not believe this but there are roads that communities call by one name on one side and a different name on the other.

Chairman

Tá áiteanna i mBaile Átha Cliath agus tá trí nó ceithre ainm orthu.

Mr. Dara Keogh

I admit that does not happen in Gaeltacht areas but I am just saying it is not that simple. It is rare. I am not saying it is common but it does happen. There are tens of thousands of duplicate addresses on the same roads.

Chairman

Tarlaíonn sé sa Ghaeltacht chomh maith.

Mr. Dara Keogh

When looking at the percentage we have done in Irish and in Gaeltacht areas, we are looking at the full 100% of the address. I talked about the names of companies and so on. We cannot control that and it is not controllable. When we move down the address, or go from the bottom up, we are looking at the areas that are the hardest to work with. The tough bit we are working away on and chipping away at is the townland names and the road names. Those are the two areas on which we are continually working with the various bodies involved.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Regarding the witnesses' relationship with the Coimisinéir Teanga, the Coimisinéir Teanga is a very important office of State. He is appointed by the President and he is a very good commissioner. He has a super team around him. The witnesses are part of his regular hits. They are up there in all his annual reports. What engagement do they have with him to explain the work they are doing? His reports indicate that he thinks there is very little progress on this. He is not particularly happy with the witnesses and I kind of understand why that is now. Do they have regular engagement with him to try to explain what they are doing to address his concerns?

Mr. Dara Keogh

In this case we are a recipient of the address from An Post so maybe An Post would have more detail.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Before An Post answers that, I want to ask about structure. We seem to have these silos. How does it work in Scotland, for example, where there are Gaelic-speaking areas with postcodes going back generations? Have the witnesses looked abroad for a similar example they could apply here? They should do that rather than building silos between their various companies and organisations and, while not quite blaming each other, not necessarily co-operating, I suspect.

Mr. Dara Keogh

We do co-operate. We work very hard to do this. It is an ongoing process and we are committed to doing it. Essentially, GeoDirectory sits between the data manufacturer, which is An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland, and the market, which is Eircode. We distribute and we have to communicate what the market wants and help our parent organisations work towards that goal, which in this case is getting all the Gaeltacht areas translated. That is our role. It is to disseminate and work with the market. That is Eircode in this case but we would also work with anyone in the market to enable them to supply a service to everybody in the Gaeltacht community in whatever language they want to do their business in. That could be booking a taxi, ordering a pizza or getting an ambulance. Whatever people want to do, they should be able to do it in whichever language they prefer to do it in. That is our objective.

Deputy Dara Calleary

On the Coimisinéir Teanga.

Mr. Cyril McGrane

I hear what the Deputy is saying. It might appear we are not working together but I truly believe we are. Maybe that message is not getting across as well as it should. I will certainly take that away from today's meeting. We are transparent in what we do. We are happy for the guys to come in and sit with us and perhaps understand at a deeper level what we do.

Perhaps we have been remiss in not inviting them in more often to see the nuts and bolts of what we do because, as we are explaining to the committee today, it is not black and white. It would be great if it were. The vagaries of what we have been explaining and addressing this afternoon show it is quite complicated.

Wearing my An Post hat, it is not that we are choosing to make it difficult. Our ambition is to deliver on our universal service obligation, USO, day in and day out, for mail which circulates into Ireland from abroad, if I am to wear my international hat, and for domestic mail circulating within Ireland. The dual language database in English and in Irish ensures we can do that. That is what we do day in and day out. If we are not able to deliver that message as clearly as we should, then we need to do more to explain. Perhaps we need to bring the commissioner and his team further into the fold so they can understand how we do what we do.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Níl sé éasca agus an dá theanga i gceist. Tá fadhb ann. Ní ar na finnéithe a bhí an dualgas i dtús báire. Ba mhaith liom é sin a rá. Eascraíonn an fhadhb seo as an scéim teanga a bhí ag an Roinn. Bhí gealltanais éagsúla sa scéim teanga seo ag an Roinn agus sháraigh sí a cuid dualgas. Chun comhthéacs a chur ar an díospóireacht seo, bhí, agus tá, an dualgas ar an Roinn. Bhí scéim teanga ag an Roinn. Faoin scéim sin, dúirt an Coimisinéir Teanga "gur chóir gur i nGaeilge amháin a bheadh na logainmneacha ábhartha Gaeltachta ar an gcóras Eircode chun go dtabharfaí feidhm chruinn do ghealltanas na scéime agus moltaí an imscrúdaithe". Dúirt an Coimisinéir Teanga go soiléir gur i nGaeilge amháin gur cheart go mbeadh na logainmneacha sa Ghaeltacht ag Eircode, agus níl sé sin ag tarlú. Tá sé leagtha amach go soiléir go bhfuair sé neart gearán go raibh daoine sa Ghaeltacht ag fáil seoltaí i mBéarla. Dúirt sé, "Dá thoradh seo ar fad, tá logainmneacha Gaeltachta i mBéarla fós á n-úsáid ag Eircode chomh maith leis na leaganacha oifigiúla Gaeilge." Cad a chiallaíonn sé sin? Dar leis an gcoimisinéir, "Ciallaíonn sé sin go bhfuil na leaganacha Béarla á n-úsáid go minic mar réamhshocrú ag gnólachtaí tráchtála." Tuigeann na finnéithe go raibh scéim teanga ag an Roinn agus bhí dualgas ar an Roinn ó thaobh conarthaí. Tá ceart ag daoine sa Ghaeltacht logainmneacha áitiúla a bheith i nGaeilge amháin.

Bhí mé féin agus mo chomhghleacaithe ag iarraidh fáil amach cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ag na heagraíochtaí ar an talamh, go háirithe Eircode, ní mór dom a rá. Cén tslat tomhais atá acu chun é sin a bhaint amach agus a chur i gceart? Tá reachtaíocht níos láidre againn anois ná mar a bhí nuair a thosaigh an taighde seo. Tá na dualgais atá ar an Roinn maidir leis na conarthaí a dhéanann sí le tríú páirtithe i bhfad níos láidre anois.

Mr. Alan Dignam

From the perspective of how we operate and maintain the Eircode system, I mentioned in my opening statement that we use the GeoDirectory database. Under our contract with the Department, we are required to use those addresses, including the dual language addresses. I will not speak on behalf of the Department but I watched the March meeting and read the transcript and I know the Minister was comfortable in her position but nonetheless took action to look further at the legalities, if that is not the wrong terminology. In operating a contract on behalf of the Department, we would obviously take instruction from it should that position change.

From an Eircode perspective, we have been very keen to ensure the Irish language is promoted. As I have mentioned, people can conduct their business on the Eircode website and on the Eircode finder in Irish or English. The further step we take in respect of Gaeltacht areas is that we recognise the Irish version as the paramount version. That is what people are presented with. If you search for a postcode in a Gaeltacht area, the Eircode system will return the Irish version of the address. You have to go into a secondary tab to find the English version of the address. When a new property is released and a new address comes to us from GeoDirectory, we send an Eircode notification letter to the householder. If that house is in a Gaeltacht area, it will be addressed to the Irish version of the address. We do a lot. I am very comfortable with what we do but we do not have a remit to make a unilateral change that goes against the terms of our agreement with the Department.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil mé fós den tuairim gur ar an Roinn a thiteann an fhreagracht as an bpraiseach seo mar tá fórsa dlí leis na pleananna teanga agus is léir go ndearna an Roinn plean teanga agus nach raibh sí sásta é a chur i bhfeidhm. Ní chuirim milleán ar bith ar na heagraíochtaí atá linn inniu as an treoir a bhfuair siad ón Roinn a leanúint. Dúirt mé ag an gcruinniú deiridh gur chreid mé gur leis an Roinn an argóint ar fad a bhí againn. Bhí mé ag éisteacht le cuid den díospóireacht thuas. Ar chuala mé i gceart nach bhfuil ach 70% de na logainmneacha i nGaeilge ag an gcóras?

Mr. Dara Keogh

It is 70% nationally.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Nationally, yes.

Mr. Dara Keogh

That is the national figure across the whole country.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tagaim ó Pháirc Pheambróg i mBaile Átha Cliath 4. Ní dóigh liom gur úsáid mé an seoladh sin i mBéarla riamh ó bhí mé i mo ghasúr. Táim ag caint faoin bhfigiúr nationally. Tá Gaeilgeoirí gach uile áit sa tír. Cuireann sé ionadh orm go bhfuil an figiúr chomh híseal sin.

Tá stair fhada ag an gceist seo. Nuair a bhí na Sasanaigh anseo, ní raibh na húdaráis phoist a bhí ann ag an am sásta glacadh le seoltaí i nGaeilge. Is éard a tharla ná gur eagraíodh agóid in Ard-Oifig an Phoist i mBaile Átha Cliath. Bhí mo sheanmháthair féin ar an agóid sin. Bhíodh sí ag déanamh gaisce as. Is éard a rinneadh ná gur scríobh daoine na seoltaí sa nGaeilge, chuaigh siad suas ag an gcuntar agus bhí argóint acu leis an duine taobh thiar den chuntar nach raibh sásta glacadh leis an seoladh. Ansin, nuair a bhí deireadh leis an argóint, d'imigh siad agus chuaigh siad isteach i gciú eile. Bhí an oiread tranglaim ann ag an am gur géilleadh go gcaithfí glacadh le seoltaí i nGaeilge áit ar bith sa tír. Is i mBaile Átha Cliath a tharla sé sin, ní thiar sa nGaeltacht. Is é sin an cúlra a bhaineann leis an scéal seo, mar eolas.

Ghlac mise leis agus mé ag fás aníos go raibh leagan Gaeilge de chuile sheoladh sa tír. Chomh maith leis sin, siar sna 1950idí, bunaíodh an Coimisiún Logainmneacha le déanamh cinnte go raibh leaganacha údarásacha Gaeilge ann. Ansin bunaíodh an Brainse Logainmneacha.

Tháinig sé sin isteach sa Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gaeltachta agus Oileán nuair a bhí mise mar Aire agus tá sé ann ó shin, ach tá sé sa Roinn nua, an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán. Tá an dualgas ar an mbrainse leaganacha údarásacha de logainmneacha na tíre ar fad a chur ar fáil. Tá obair ollmhór agus taighde iontach déanta ann. Cén plé a mbíonn ag na finnéithe leis an mBrainse Logainmneacha, atá ina údar ar bhailte fearainn agus ar shráideanna, de réir mar a thuigim é, chun a chinntiú go bhfuil leaganacha údarásacha ar fáil? B’fhéidir go bhfuil gá ann go gcuirfí go mór leis an Roinn le go mbeadh an brainse ar an gcumas leagan údarásach a chur ar fáil don 30% eile. Cuireann sé iontas an tsaoil orm nach bhfuil leaganacha údarásacha ag 30%.

B’fhéidir go bhféadfadh na finnéithe an dara rud seo a mhíniú dom. Tá go leor leaganacha Béarla de logainmneacha. Tá cleachtais éagsúla ann, mar shampla, in áit in aice liom. Tá an litriú “Leenane” ann, mar a deir muintir na háite, ach bheadh an litriú “Leenaun” i bhfad níos gaire don rud a scríobh an Ordnance Survey an chéad uair. Scríobhtar “Maam” go háitiúil ach má bhreathnaítear ar seanfhoinsí, is “Maum” atá ann. “Clonbur” a thugann muintir air, ach is “Cloonbur” – arís, a bheadh níos gaire don bhun rud – atá ann go hoifigiúil. Glacaim leis go bhfuil an fhadhb seo sna leaganacha Béarla. Is maith an rud é déileáil go cothrom leis an nGaeilge agus leis an mBéarla. Cén chaoi a leagann na finnéithe amach cén leagan Béarla de logainmneacha a úsáidtear? An é an ceann is coitianta i measc an phobail é nó an é an ceann a d’úsáid an Ordnance Survey breis agus 100 bliain ó shin? Bheadh sé spéisiúil é seo a fháil amach mar tá cuid den fhadhb chéanna ann maidir le logainmneacha Gaeilge sa mhéid is go bhfuil leagan áitiúil á úsáid agus leagan oifigiúil ann.

Mr. Dara Keogh

We have a link with logainm.ie.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Logainm.ie is only a website.

Mr. Dara Keogh

I know, but it supplies us with data regularly.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Does Mr. Keogh mean the Brainse Logainmneacha in the Department?

Mr. Dara Keogh

Off the top of my head, I cannot remember exactly who.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Logainm.ie is just a database that was set up which a person can access.

Mr. Dara Keogh

That can be done, but logainm.ie actually send us data. It does the official translations, which are sent to us so that we can include them.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

But the official translations are done by the Placenames Branch of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media.

Mr. Dara Keogh

Yes. We take the placenames from logainm.ie, which send to us what we are told are the official translations. We take them from logainm.ie as well as from local authorities, OSI mapping of Gaeltacht areas in particular, and we collect them locally and through local knowledge of the delivery staff of An Post. How we collect them is multifaceted.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Nach mbeadh sé i bhfad níos fearr dá mba rud é go leagfaí an cúram faoi gach logainm oifigiúil Gaeilge ar Bhrainse Logainmneacha den Roinn a bhfuil an saineolas ann chun déanamh cinnte de go mbeadh sé seo bunaithe i gceart?

Mr. Dara Keogh

Yes, it would be. However, we are trying to achieve a dual language system across the whole country. In doing that, the official translations were progressing a little bit slowly. This is relevant to the point made by the Deputy. We have taken a translation done in one source, and where there is a similar name elsewhere, we apply it there, but sometimes that can change later because of context, culture, or local area pronunciations etc. In the database, we mark where there is an official translation and an unofficial translation. That is why our reach goes further than is officially available.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Sa chás i nGaillimh, níl ann ach leaganacha Gaeilge. Glacaim leis nach gcuirtear Béarla orthu siúd. Sna heastáit nua ar fad i gcathair na Gaillimhe, mar chuid den chead pleanála leagann an chomhairle contae amach gur i nGaeilge amháin a bheidh na hainmneacha. Glacaim leis nach gcuirtear Béarla orthu siúd.

Mr. Dara Keogh

If they are available in Irish, we collect them in Irish. There is only one-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Glacaim leis nach gcuirtear Béarla orthu. Más “Gleann na Mara” atá ann, glacaim leis go bhfanann sé mar Ghleann na Mara.

Mr. Dara Keogh

Yes, exactly. If it is in Irish only, we record it in Irish only. I refer to the point raised about the 70%. If we can only get an organisation name in English, we do not regard the address as being 100% in Irish.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

An bhfuil Dara Keogh ag rá liom gurb amhlaidh i gcás “Johnny Murphy and Company”? Is rud príobháideach é sin a bhaineann le Johnny Murphy. Dá mba “Éamon Ó Cuív agus an Comhlacht” a bhí i gceist, glacaim leis go mbaineann sé le hÉamon Ó Cuív go pearsanta. Ach dá bhfágfaí amach mé as na heisceachtaí sin, mar sin ainm príobháideach-----

Chairman

Tá eisceachtaí ann ar bhealaí eile chomh maith. Tabharfaidh mé shampla don Teachta. Tá aithne ag gach duine ar Tigh Uí Chatháin ar an mBuailtín, Baile an Fheirtéaraigh. Má chuirim an Eircode isteach ar líne, is “Ballyferriter” a luaitear ann. Tá an teideal i nGaeilge agus tá sé i gceantar Gaeltachta ach ní thagann an Buailtín nó Baile an Fheirtéaraigh suas i gcuardach. Níl ach 50 teach san áit. Níl sé chomh mór sin. Níor tugadh Ballyferriter riamh air ach amháin ag lucht lasmuigh. Is pub áitiúil é a bhí ann i gcónaí. Tá a lán samplaí eile mar sin ann. B’fhéidir go dtiocfaidh sé suas má chuirtear an t-ainm Gaeilge isteach. Má chuirtear “Baile an Fheirtéaraigh” isteach, ní luaitear 50 seoladh. Má chuirtear “an Buailtín” isteach, luaitear áiteanna i gCorcaigh agus áiteanna eile, le haistriúchán Béarla ar an mBuailtín. Ní thagann “an Buailtín” suas in aon chor. Ní thugtar an t-aitheantas don cheantar sin. Má chuirtear "Ballyferriter" isteach i gcuardach, tagann sé suas gan fadhb ar bith. Tá rud éigin bunúsach mícheart leis seo.

Níl an locht ar na finnéithe dar ndóigh. Tá an locht ar orthu siúd a bhailigh an t-eolas ar an gcéad dul síos. Tá na finnéithe ag déileáil leis. Mar sin féin, tá siad ag rá linn go ndéantar 500,000 athrú ar an gcóras gach bliain. Níl a fhios agam cé mhéad de sin atá gafa le hathruithe maidir leis an nGaeilge. Sna trí chomhlachtaí atá os ár gcomhair, cé mhéad duine atá gafa lena chinntiú go bhfuil na hainmneacha sna ceantair Ghaeltachta taifeadta i gceart agus fiú lasmuigh de sin? Tá a fhios agam ó thaithí phearsanta go bhfaighim téacs uair sa mhí ag fiafraí díom cá bhfuil seoladh áirithe i mBaile Átha Cliath. Úsáidim Google Maps go minic agus bím in ann an t-eolas a fháil ach ní féidir le fear an phoist atá amuigh ar an tsráid teacht ar an eolas toisc nach bhfuil liosta de na sráidainmneacha ar fad i mBaile Átha Cliath atá i nGaeilge aige.

Mr. Cyril McGrane

If the committee has a specific query, we are always happy to take it back. I cannot investigate what the Chair raised without knowing the detail. As we said, we are constantly updating the system. The sheer scale of the numbers we talked about shows it is a living database.

We can also do better and continue that journey. The journey does not end, in effect, is what we are saying.

Chairman

Glacaim leis sin. Tuigeann daoine go bhfuil sé seo i gcónaí ag athrú agus go mbeidh sé ag athrú, agus níl fadhb ag aon duine leis sin. Tá mise i mo chónaí i gcathair Baile Átha Cliath. Tá bloc árasán tógtha in aice liom a bheidh ag oscailt an tseachtain seo chugainn, agus beidh 100 seoladh nua ann. Tuigim é sin ach tá roinnt den stuif seo ann le 100 bliain anuas agus níor athraigh an seoladh. Má lorgaítear teach mo dhearthár sa Mhuiríoch ar an Eircode, níl sé ann. Níl Ard Aoibheann ná an Charraig ann. Is Bóthar na Carraige atá sa Mhuiríoch. Níl siad ann. Tá rudaí mar sin ag tarlú nuair a théitear ag lorg seoltaí. Tá a fhios agam cá bhfuil a theach. Ní gá domsa ach tiomáint ach má deirim le duine an seoladh a lorg, níl sé ann. B’fhéidir go bhfuil Eircode ann ach má lorgaím de réir ainm é seachas de réir cóid, ní thagann sé aníos. Bímse ag léim isteach agus amach as an Eircode finder. Má tharlaíonn sé sin domsa, cé mhéad duine eile lena dtarlaíonn sé, i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla?

Ba chóir go mbeimis in ann gach uile sheoladh i gceantar Gaeltachta a chur isteach i nGaeilge agus go dtiocfadh sé aníos láithreach. Má chuirimid isteach i mBéarla é, níor chóir go mbeadh sé ag teacht aníos. Ba chóir go n-aistreodh an córas ríomhaireachta go dtí an Ghaeilge ionas go n-aithneodh daoine é. Níor chóir go mbeadh aon áit ann nach bhfuil teacht air, de réir an chórais. Is féidir liom samplaí a chur ar aghaidh chuig na finnéithe.

Cé mhéad duine atá ag obair díreach ar an gcuid sin ó thaobh na Gaeilge de? An bhfuil aon duine ar leith ag obair air san eagras? Cé mhéad duine atá ag déileáil le seoltaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta in GeoDirectory? Ní bheadh tuiscint ar bith ag Béarlóir air sin. An bhfuil daoine áirithe atá ag déanamh an inputting a bhfuil Gaeilge agus an tuiscint acu?

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá daoine le Gaeilge ann. Níl ach níos lú ná 20 duine san eagras ina iomláine. Is líon beag é. Níl gnó Gaeilge amháin ag aon duine. Níl aon duine ag obair ar an nGaeilge amháin in GeoDirectory.

Mr. Dara Keogh

In GeoDirectory? No.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá an dualgas ar dhaoine an t-eolas a bhailiú maidir le gach ábhar sa database. Níl sé tógtha mar sin. Ní dóigh liom, dá mbeadh na daoine againn, go n-oibreodh sé mar sin.

Chairman

Tá GeoDirectory ag déileáil le 500,000 athrú gach uile bhliain.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Is gach rud é sin. Cuimsítear tithe, bóithre, athruithe agus ceartuithe leis.

Chairman

Níl a fhios againn cé mhéad den 500,000 atá ag déileáil le seoltaí Gaeilge.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Níl. Tá na figiúirí sin ag teacht ón ríomhaire. Níl an breakdown agam ar cá as ar tháinig na hathruithe sin.

Chairman

Táimid ag aithint go bhfuil fadhb ann, áfach.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá.

Chairman

Má tá fadhb ann, caithfidh daoine breise a bheith ann nó dualgais bhreise a bheith ar dhaoine tabhairt faoin bhfadhb sin a réiteach agus na seoltaí a cheartú. Ní bheadh fadhb ann dá réir.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá sé sin á dhéanamh againn an t-am go léir. Tógfaimid an méid a chloisimid anseo inniu ar ais linn agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil seans ann rudaí a athrú chun na fadhbanna a réiteach níos tapúla.

Chairman

Is féidir linn ceist a chur ar logainm.ie teacht os ár gcomhair mar caithfidh sé cuidiú a thabhairt do GeoDirectory chomh maith.

Mr. Liam Irwin

Tá an tseirbhís ó logainmn.ie go hiontach, ach tá an capacity atá aige teoranta. Dá mbeadh sé níos mó ná mar atá, bheadh sé sin an-mhaith dúinn.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is cuid den Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán é logainm.ie. Is as an Ghaeltacht dó.

Chairman

Cuirfimid ceist ar logainm.ie teacht os ár gcomhair. Toisc go bhfuil Eircode chomh lárnach sin anois do dhaoine nuair atá siad ag lorg áiteanna agus nuair atá siad ag déanamh gnó le háiteanna, caithfimid ceist a chur ar logainm.ie maidir leis an méid foirne nó acmhainní atá dírithe ar dhéanamh cinnte de go bhfuil na seoltaí atá ag na finnéithe cruinn agus nach bhfuil botúin ag tarlú, le gur féidir leis an database a bheith go hiomlán cruinn agus gur féidir linn é a chuardach i gceart.

Dá bhféadfadh leis An Post iarraidh ar na fir agus mná poist timpeall na tíre beagáinín níos mó airde a thabhairt ar na comharthaí bóithre, bheadh sé sin i bhfad Éireann níos fearr don chóras. Tá roinnt bóithre i mBaile Átha Cliath a bhfuil trí bhealach difriúil le h-iad a litriú i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge. Is minic a bhíonn fear an phoist nua ar duty agus ní bhíonn tuairim ar bith aige. Má tá seoladh as Gaeilge, gan Eircode air nó, fiú, uaireanta, le Eircode air, bíonn sé deacair air teacht air. Níl an chuma air gur féidir leis glaoch a chur ar an oifig agus iarraidh uirthi cá bhfuil an áit agus a rá go bhfuil sé ar an liosta ach nach féidir leis teacht air. Níl clú ag aon duine. Is minic gur féidir teacht air trí fhéachaint ar Google Earth. Tá seisean in ann rudaí a dhéanamh níos tapúla ná an gnáthchód.

An bhfuil aon cheist ag aon duine eile? Sin críoch le chruinniú an lae inniu ach measaim nach bhfuilimid críochnaithe leis seo ina iomláine. Cuirfimid ceist ar nó litreacha chuig an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán, logainm.ie agus an Roinn a dhéanann an conradh seo a chur le chéile, bunaithe ar an eolas sin, chun teacht ar réiteach na faidhbe seo. Déanfaimid an cinneadh sin amach anseo. Tá cuid den fhadhb aitheanta againn ach níl an leigheas uirthi aitheanta againn.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe atá os ár gcomhair inniu: Dara Keogh agus Liam Irwin a bhí anseo thar ceann GeoDirectory; Cyril McGrane a bhí anseo thar ceann An Post; agus Alan Dignam, a bhí anseo thar ceann Eircode. Gabhaim buíochas leo arís as bheith linn.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 3.09 p.m. sine die.