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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jun 2001

Vol. 3 No. 14

1999 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I welcome Mr. Quigley and his officials. The attention of witnesses is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses.

For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation I should remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Quigley, please introduce your officials.

Mr. Quigley

Thank you, Chairman. I am accompanied by Mr. Paddy O'Shaughnessy, liaison officer in the corporate management division which works with the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts and Mr. Eamon O'Dea, principal inspector in the Office of the Chief Inspector of Taxes.

Mr. Purcell

I know the committee is anxious to address a number of matters which have some relationship to the report. Subject to the agreement of the Chairman, I will introduce the totality of my report as quickly as possible.

Paragraph 14 sets out the basis for my audit and summarises the tax yield for 1999 under the various tax headings. Paragraph 15 gives a breakdown by tax head and by reason of the amounts written off as uncollectable in 1999. The paragraph also shows the amounts written off in each of the five years between 1995 and 1999. The increase in the amounts written off in 1997 and 1998 was due to a revision of the write-off policy with a view to removing many old and uncollectable debts. The level of write-off has fallen in 1999 to what one might call more normal levels as the backlog of liquidation cases to be written off under the revised policy has been dealt with.

Paragraph 16 shows the breakdown of tax arrears at the end of May 2000 together with Revenue's estimate of the amount of these arrears which it is likely to collect. The amount of tax outstanding is down to just over £1 billion compared to almost £3 billion ten years ago. This reduction reflects the effect of the revised write-off policy as well as both improved collection and more accurate charges being raised. Gradually we are approaching the position where the amount of tax outstanding will largely represent collectable debt. That is a huge advance because Revenue reckons that it will ultimately collect about half of that £1 billion. Members will note that the table shows a nil balance for DIRT. However, as a result of the look-back audits Revenue has collected a total of £173 million.

Paragraph 17 presents a summary of Revenue's prosecution activity during 1999 against those who had failed to file income tax and corporation tax returns. The trend in the level of prosecutions between 1995 and 1999 shows a steep rise in the number of cases brought to court and in the value of fines imposed. Since the publication of my report, Revenue has reviewed the status of all cases and the correct figure for cases awaiting hearing at the end of 1999 was 2,558. The need for this adjustment arose because some cases had been heard and others had been dropped without the Revenue solicitor's office being advised of these facts by the relevant tax districts.

Paragraph 18 provides information on the extent of Revenue's audit activity to give details of the various types of audit and to note any factors which have impacted on the extent and approach in any year. The total number of audits completed and the yield from them has fallen slightly in 1999 compared with 1998 and there has been a steady fall in the number of and yield from comprehensive audits for corporation tax since 1996.

Paragraph 19 shows the results in 1999 of Revenue's prosecution policy for serious tax offences. The investigation branch is responsible for pursuing prosecutions and 39 cases were investigated with prosecution in mind during 1999, of which three went to court during the year. Thirty cases remained on hand at the end of 1999 but since then a number of convictions have been secured, including some involving prison sentences. It was intended that paragraph 20 would provide information on the throughput of appeals and their outcome but this was not possible because no statistics or summary records were maintained. Estimates by Revenue of the number of cases heard are quoted in the paragraph.

The DIRT sub-committee considered the operation of the appeals procedures in detail in January 2001. The appeals commissioners attended and gave their views on possible improvements. Revenue also suggested some changes to the system. The final report of the sub-committee included a number of recommendations in this regard.

Paragraph 21 is included to give information on the status of the various special investigations being carried out by Revenue. The DIRT look-back audit has been completed and the various institutions have paid a total of £173 million. Revenue has since issued a statement of practice outlining its approach to the underlying tax on funds deposited in bogus non-resident accounts. Investigations into individuals involved in the offshore investment scheme operated by NIB are continuing. A total of 191 of the 429 cases have been settled with additional liability. That was the position a few weeks ago. A sum of £15.6 million has been paid. No liability was found in 76 of the finalised cases. In addition, payments on account totalling £7.6 million have been received in respect of 130 cases still under investigation. The work of the special team set up to examine the tax affairs of the individuals named in the report on the examination of the bank accounts of Ansbacher Cayman Limited held in Guinness and Mahon Bank is also continuing. Payments on account totalling £3.7 million were received up to the end of 2000. A further £4.8 million has been received from persons with offshore assets who are not named in that report.

The paragraph also refers to the investigation into the so-called "pick me up" schemes whereby expenses incurred by a political party are paid directly by a third party. That is ongoing. It has been found that not all third parties treated the payments correctly for tax purposes and, therefore, their liability was understated. Settlements totalling £129,000 have been reached in 31 cases and payments on account totalling £354,000 have been received in 17 other cases.

Paragraph 22 covers several pages. It records the results of an examination carried out by staff into the work of the special inquiry branch in Revenue. The branch was set up in 1979, primarily to combat the black economy by gathering and analysing information on persons, businesses, transactions and sectors of commercial activity and putting it to good use. Much of the information is provided by way of third party returns by State agencies and professionals in the private sector but outdoor work, local knowledge and information from the public also make a contribution. The challenge for the branch is to collate this information and either make it available to the relevant sections in Revenue or use it as the basis for undertaking special projects in selected sectors.

My audit found that while much good work is carried out by the branch, there was a need to address a number of issues surrounding the way it operates to make it more effective and to increase its potential for disruption of the black economy. They are outlined on pages 52 to 55 of the report and I will not repeat them. However, I will mention a few. Better organisation and management of the information received was needed. There is a need for more effective local inquiry activity and better co-ordination between the branch and other areas of Revenue.

The changes proposed in the recent internal review of Revenue together with the Department of Finance review prompted by the DIRT sub-committee should go some way towards addressing the need to put in place structured information and knowledge management systems. These developments will impact on the operation of the special inquiry branch and the Accounting Officer will be able to inform the committee on that score.

I will circulate Mr. Quigley's opening statement to the press. Thank you, Mr. Quigley, for the comprehensive information you sent the committee in your opening statement. Perhaps you will paraphrase the salient points.

Mr. Quigley

I will make a few general comments about the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 1999, which he discussed in his opening comments. I will not seek to pre-empt the committee's questions on the points made in the report or the points to which the Comptroller and Auditor General adverted. We regard the report as indicating that we are making progress across our office. However, as we are only making progress we can only report progress. We have more to do and we are determined to do it.

The progress is reflected in the net receipts figures which increased by £2.5 billion in 1999 over the 1998 figure and also in the reduction in the outstanding debt, which was reduced by over £100 million in that year. Despite the huge growth in tax receipts in recent years, we still need to tighten up further some of our activities in the collection and audit areas, and we will do this. Likewise, we are not satisfied with the level of outstanding debt. The Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to the significant reduction and underlined the progress that has been made. That is significant for us.

I agree wholeheartedly with the view that Revenue should be coming down to a level of debt on which it is fully accountable to this committee and to the Oireachtas, having eliminated the artificiality which distorted the figures for so many years. We have been busily trying to do that. There has been a massive reduction from £3.5 billion for 1988, which represented approximately 57% of the total annual tax collection in that year. Our debt was the equivalent of 57% and it was down to a £1 billion figure for 1999 which represents 6% of the tax take in that year. However, we need to go further and our new statement of strategy, which I hope we can publish shortly, will contain important new commitments from Revenue for the period 2001 to 2003 in terms of focusing even more on the level of debt and making commitments about the time period for which debt will be outstanding and what we will do if the debt, for example, exceeds six years, three years and so forth. That will be a major change, bearing in mind that on the basis of the figures in the report, approximately 20% of our outstanding debt is still pre-1991. It dates from before the 1993 amnesty.

While we are making progress on collection, there is more to be done. The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned paragraph 22 of the report and the special inquiry branch. I wish to comment briefly on that. We agree that despite the excellent work being done by that branch, deficiencies are identified in the report as regards, in particular, the sharing and processing of information across Revenue. One of Revenue's biggest difficulties is to make full use of all the information which is available throughout such a large organisation. We need to do better.

We have set up a project team across the office to see what information we should be capturing and how best it can be disseminated to all areas of the office. In the radical restructuring of our organisation, which we announced, we will consider what has been said about the special inquiry branch. We need to decide exactly on what changes we should make as part of the restructuring.

If it is in order, Chairman, I would like to comment on the so-called underlying tax relating to bogus non-resident accounts and the arrangements recently introduced by Revenue which are set out in our Statement of Revenue Practice dated 2 May. I take this opportunity to explain to the committee some of the dilemmas faced by Revenue in dealing with this matter and, in particular, indicate the interaction between these arrangements in the statement of practice and the 1993 amnesty, which has been the subject of some comment in the Dáil and the media.

The final report of the Sub-Committee on Certain Revenue Matters acknowledged the difficulties for Revenue in dealing with the problem of underlying tax. It stated: "The assessment and collection of tax on the underlying undeclared income in bogus non-resident accounts [as distinct from DIRT we were collecting from financial institutions] will . . . be a major undertaking involving significant resources, time and effort." The sub-committee went on to recommend that Revenue consider dealing with the assessment and collection of underlying tax in a pragmatic and effective manner while safeguarding the overall revenue of the State.

The solution upon which we have decided is pragmatic and effective and we reached it after much consideration. One media commentator suggested the nature and scale of the difficulties in terms of the problem over such a period of time were such that Revenue would walk away from it and would not really deal with it. We had no intention of doing that and the answers the Minister for Finance gave over a period on the basis of information from Revenue clearly show we were scoping exactly how we would deal with the problem in an efficient and effective way, bearing in mind that unlike the audit of the 37 financial institutions referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General the number of cases of individual depositors could be between 25,000 and 50,000. The scale of what is involved is unprecedented.

In tackling this problem we could admittedly have taken a different approach which would not have required inducement for cases to come forward voluntarily. This would have involved using powers to get relevant information from the financial institutions and investigating each and every suspect case individually. However, such an approach would have had enormous implications for our resources, including our normal audit activity, and would have taken an incalculable number of years to bring to a conclusion. Rather than helping our ongoing efforts to improve tax compliance, to which I attach the utmost importance, it would hinder them by diverting us almost entirely to the underlying tax problem. We were also convinced that this approach would not maximise the amount of money that could be obtained for the Exchequer and the general body of taxpayers in comparison with the approach we settled on.

The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned the NIB investigation. Up to the end of February, 2001 267 National Irish Bank cases had been settled. The investigations had been ongoing since April 1998. Most of these cases were not cases of voluntary disclosure and information required by us had to be got from lengthy and painstaking inquiries. In the case of bogus non-resident accounts we could be talking about between 100 and 200 times that number.

We took the view that a case-by-case investigation was simply not feasible and that the correct management of this problem required a more broad-based approach aimed at flushing out the greatest possible number of bogus account holders on a voluntary disclosure basis and concentrating our available resources on going after those cases who do not come forward voluntarily. If we had to make limited concessions to promote such an approach, so be it. We have clear advice that the approach we decided upon is within our care and management powers under the law. I understand that the Attorney General is of a similar view. We decided carefully on the best approach. As Chairman and Accounting Officer, I am accountable to the committee and ultimately responsible for the decisions made.

I will skip over the details of the statement of practice. Suffice to say there are two broad stages, one which will run until 15 November. Already some people want a longer period, but we are refusing that. The deadline for voluntary disclosure is 15 November. If a person makes a full disclosure during that stage we will not initiate an investigation with a view to prosecution, the name of the person will not be published and the total interest and penalties will be capped at 100% of the tax. In other words, the person will pay all the outstanding tax plus the same amount in interest and penalties. It is not a soft option under anybody's definition. For people who do not take up that option in phase 2, we will use all our powers to get all the information on the full list of bogus non-resident account holders from the banks and other institutions. We will cross off that list the people who have made a voluntary disclosure and investigate the other cases individually. At that stage all bets will be off in the sense that there will be no cap on the interest and penalties, there will be publication of settlements reached and cases are liable to be investigated with a view to prosecution.

In the time available I would like to deal with the interaction with the 1993 amnesty legislation, which has been the subject of comment. First, it is clear from the DIRT look-back audits and the discussions in the Committee of Public Accounts and the sub-committee on DIRT that most of the bogus non-resident accounts identified were in existence before 1991. There was, therefore, an obligation on the account holders concerned to comply with the terms of the 1993 amnesty. However, because of the strict confidentiality provisions built into the amnesty legislation, it is not known how many of them did not participate in the amnesty or how many participated but did not make a full disclosure. The committee will recall that a person who complied with the 1993 legislation would have been able to satisfy all obligations by paying 15% of the amounts of income undeclared, with no interest or penalties.

As regards the precise interaction with the statement of practice, it would be helpful to distinguish between three categories of bogus account holders. First, there is the bogus account holder who made a full and complete disclosure under the amnesty and kept his or her affairs in order subsequently. Such cases do not have to do anything under the statement of practice, they are completely in the clear. Second, there is the bogus account holder who kept the head down completely as regards the amnesty and made no amnesty declaration. Such cases will be able to avail of the statement of practice, but will now have to pay all the tax liability as opposed to the 15% I mentioned and in addition will pay another 100% of the tax in interest and penalties. I again point out that the vast majority of the bogus account holders we are aiming at are likely to fall into this category. Those who did not avail of the amnesty or who abused it - the third category - are the problem in terms of the bogus non-resident account underlying tax area simply because most of the account holders had money in those accounts prior to 1991, the cut-off date for the amnesty.

The third category are bogus account holders who made a declaration under the amnesty but did not make a full and proper declaration. For example, they may have claimed the 15% amnesty on part of the income but failed to declare income relating to a bogus non-resident account. Such cases will also be able to avail of the statement of practice but they will lose the benefit of the 1993 amnesty because they did not make a correct declaration at that time. In effect, they will now, under the terms of the statement of practice, have to pay the full tax, including full tax on the partial disclosure under the amnesty, plus the same amount again in interest and penalties. They will of course be entitled to a credit for the actual amount paid under the amnesty, as provided for explicitly in the 1993 legislation.

On the question of prosecution for failure to avail of the amnesty, section 9 of the amnesty legislation provides that where persons knowingly or wilfully evaded tax liabilities in respect of periods covered by the 1993 amnesty and were required to avail of that amnesty but did not do so, or did not fully comply with the disclosure requirements, they are guilty of offences. A successful prosecution of such offences would, of course, require the necessary investigations and proofs to be established in a court of law. There is no automatic prosecution or conviction.

We have discussed the question of prosecutions at this committee and in the sub-committee on previous occasions, particularly the resource issues involved and the burden of proof involved in establishing prosecution for serious tax evasion. We are making progress in implementing our more active prosecution policy and the committee has required me on various occasions to account for that and urged me to make substantially more rapid progress. As we speak there are two people serving jail sentences as a result of prosecutions for serious tax evasion which we initiated. Given the very large numbers of cases which are involved in the underlying tax, the available Revenue resources must be deployed in the most practical and effective way. Even if we knew them all, it would be impossible to investigate for prosecution every person who did not comply with the 1993 amnesty. In our view investigation with a view to prosecution is better concentrated on those persons who do not avail of the statement of practice and this will be done after 15 November next. The offences prosecuted would include amnesty-related offences on which we can establish the necessary proofs.

Chairman, I am grateful for the time you have allowed me to elaborate the statement of practice. I wanted, with your permission, to indicate our position on the decision made on this very difficult topic under our care and management powers, a Revenue decision, a matter for us to deal with in managing the tax administration. It was our problem and we had to deal with it. We made our decision for which I am accountable to the committee. I wanted to elaborate on it and I wanted to deal with the interaction in terms of the amnesty in the case of the three categories I outlined.

Thank you, Mr. Quigley.

I thank the Revenue Chairman, Mr. Quigley, for his very open statement. My first question relates to the final part of the matter about which he spoke, that is, the two people who were prosecuted. These are two people who have already been prosecuted and who are serving jail sentences for offences of failing to disclose the 1993 amnesty, is that correct?

Mr. Quigley

No, that is not correct. I hope I did not mislead the Deputy. These would have been general prosecution cases. I do not have the details in front of me.

Were they under the Revenue's general prosecutions?

Mr. Quigley

Yes. They would have related, for example, to false claims for VAT repayment.

On the point Mr. Quigley made on the question of failure to avail of the 1993 amnesty, how many people have been prosecuted and are serving sentences for breaching the 1993 amnesty declaration, in other words, not making a proper declaration? How many such cases are about to be sent forward to the DPP for prosecution?

Mr. Quigley

To date I do not believe anybody has been prosecuted for an offence under the 1993 legislation.

Will Mr. Quigley reassure the committee then that the device contained in the statement of 2 May, which the Revenue devised to raise more revenue, will not become an exit route or a way by which certain individuals will not be prosecuted for breaches under the 1993 amnesty legislation?

Mr. Quigley

No, it will not. Before I deal with that, there are some cases under our general prosecution procedure, which was discussed in the committee previously, where an amnesty offence is a possible prosecution matter. They are being examined. There would be eight, nine or ten of those cases where the amnesty or non-compliance with the amnesty may be a factor, but of course it remains to be seen whether the proofs can be established to support that and whether the DPP would be satisfied with them.

Is Mr. Quigley saying that there are eight or nine cases in the process of being sent to the DPP for breaches of the amnesty?

Mr. Quigley

We would have a stock of cases, 30 odd cases - there is a number of cases before the courts - under investigation at any time. What I am saying is that in a number of those cases, an apparent breach of amnesty legislation is one of the matters being considered. I would point out - it is important to understand this - that regarding the onus of proof in the amnesty legislation it is not just a question of proving that somebody failed to avail of it. There is a double-barrelled standard or requirement of proof under the 1993 legislation. The Revenue must investigate and establish that the person has knowingly and wilfully entered into an arrangement to evade tax. That is the first barrel. The second barrel is that that person must have failed to avail or availed improperly of the 1993 legislation. There is a double-barrelled test which is an onerous one.

On the Deputy's substantive question, most definitely——

There are eight to ten cases.

Mr. Quigley

At present. Most definitely, this statement of practice is not designed to drive a coach and four through the amnesty. What we are saying is that we have a management problem in dealing with this.

It is restricted only to the bogus non-resident accounts.

Mr. Quigley

It is for bogus non-resident accounts. We came to the conclusion, and it is my responsibility as Accounting Officer, that we would deal with this in a realistic way, not in a nominal way which would not make sense, for example, to say that we were going to prosecute everybody. It would not be meaningful if we did not deliver on it. We made the decision to settle on two phases. Phase one would maximise the voluntary disclosure and obviously as a corollary, ease the problem for Revenue by giving some significant incentives to people to come forward in the sense of non-publication and non-investigation for prosecution - only the DPP can decide prosecutions - but, nonetheless, would involve the paying of a very substantial amount of tax, interest and penalties.

They are open to be prosecuted nonetheless. Therefore, what the Revenue is offering is not an amnesty, as has been suggested. The DPP can override the Revenue's decision and can prosecute where there is prima facie evidence.

Mr. Quigley

Most of the revenue offences cases would be investigated by Revenue and it would be up to us to send a file to the DPP. What we are saying is——

If information comes into the hands of the DPP independent of the Revenue's investigations, a prosecution can be mounted.

Mr. Quigley

I can only speak for the Revenue on this. We have made it absolutely clear that in the case of people who voluntarily come in under phase one, we will not be undertaking an investigation with a view to prosecution. That is our position as stated in the statement of practice. I hope the statement of practice will be successful and there will be interest in it. We are doing a round of seminars all over the country to explain what is involved. However, what we are saying, to complete the answer to the Deputy's question, is that if the statement of practice succeeds in eliciting the voluntary disclosures, in the second stage we will be dealing with a narrower group. Certainly regarding people in that group who do not make a voluntary disclosure, depending on the number involved, it may not be realistic to say everybody will be prosecuted - there is no point in crying wolf - but it is realistic to say that everybody who finds themselves, or puts themselves, in that position is liable to be investigated with a view to prosecution. That, to me, is a much more meaningful statement on the amnesty legislation than saying that we will prosecute every offence under the legislation.

Mr. Quigley has estimated that there could be between 25,000 and 50,000 non-resident account holders. I do not know how he arrived at that figure but I presume it is relevant and accurate. Given that £173 million was raised from 37 institutions, what is your best guesstimate of the amount of money you expect to raise from the voluntary phase which stretches from May to November? How many people have already come forward?

Mr. Quigley

I would not like to put a figure on it. The sum of £173 million is the amount we raised from the financial institutions using sampling techniques explicitly provided for in law to extrapolate from the samples the amount payable in DIRT. We have collected that amount.

The range of cases is very wide and the figure is a guesstimate. For the purposes of computing the £173 million we did not have to tie down the numbers as distinct from the total value of the amounts involved and the total value of interest payable. If one took the figure of total population non-resident accounts and established the rate of bogus accounts one could get a much higher figure. That figure could rise to 70,000 plus. This was discussed previously during the DIRT inquiry. We are making allowance for double counting of cases covered in the two samples taken and an assumption on our part, with which we are reasonably comfortable, that the level of bogus accounts did not uniformly run down through the range of accounts. We are adjusting the figures in that way and giving our best guess of approximately 25,000 to 50,000.

What is the average yield for the minimum figure?

Mr. Quigley

I do not have——

You must have a figure as a result of sampling.

On that point, Mr. Quigley, you are aware that as far back as 1993 the Department of Finance estimated there could be up to £1 billion in bogus non-resident accounts?

Mr. Quigley

No, Chairman. I wish to be completely upfront with the committee. We do not have a hard estimate of what we may get.

You must have a guesstimate.

Mr. Quigley

No, I will take the points as the Deputy has put them to me.

To clarify my point, I think it would be rather odd if you did not have a minimum yield expectation. You are giving such extraordinary write-offs in terms of non-prosecution and so on and I would, therefore, expect some element of guesstimate at a figure.

Mr. Quigley

I do not believe we are giving extraordinary write-offs in terms of non-prosecution and so on. That assumes——

People who were not bogus account holders will remain open to prosecution for breaches of the 1993 amnesty. Another ten people are being sent forward for prosecution and 25,000 people are not being sent forward. It is important that you have some estimate of minimum yield in this regard.

Mr. Quigley

Some of them will be prosecuted as a result of evidence obtained in stage 2. We have sizeable prosecutions for failure to file tax returns and are building up our prosecutions for serious tax evasion. The real reason one cannot put a hard figure on this, notwithstanding the guesstimates mentioned by the Chairman, is that the interaction with the amnesty is a major complication. We do not know how many of these cases come under the amnesty. I believe a substantial amount of money is obtainable for the Exchequer and our strategy is designed to obtain it. We do not know for certain, however, how many have availed of the amnesty. To take an extreme example, if all these people were in the amnesty and had completed their affairs properly, there would be nothing we could do.

How do you justify all this from a taxpayer's point of view if you have no minimum yield expectation?

Mr. Quigley

I am polarising it in the extremity for the Deputy. I am trying to explain why we do not have a hard figure. There is uncertainty about the number of bogus non-resident accounts coupled with the problem of knowing how many of those people availed of the amnesty. They are two very cogent reasons we do not have a hard figure.

A couple of weeks ago a Sunday newspaper printed a figure attributed to Revenue based on an FOI request stating that Revenue's estimate was that £700 million was obtainable in tax, interest and penalties from bogus non-resident accounts. That arose as a result of an FOI request. What was released were some notes which were prepared for me for the press conference. In that case, a corrected Miltown Malbay multiplier was applied. This figure was used in the DIRT proceedings. That figure was a multiple of nine and was incorrect because it did not compare like with like. It compared tax with tax, interest and penalties. The correct multiplier adjusted, even on that isolated case, would have been five.

Leading to what figure?

Mr. Quigley

To the figure of £700 million, in theory. It is extrapolating, for the purpose of providing me with some information, based on one instance which could not be valid. This was not emphasised in the article though it was, technically, corrected at the bottom of the paragraph. The notes continued that if it is suggested that the probable yield may be based on a Miltown Malbay multiplier one comes out with the figure of £70 million DIRT multiplied by five, that is £350 million plus the same again in interest and penalties, resulting in a figure of £700 million. The notes contained a very important caveat stating that the projection was also based on one incident and does not take account of other factors, in particular the 1993 amnesty which accounts for liabilities excluding known arrears of approximately £600 million. The dilemma is knowing the cross-over figure. We are not in a position to put a hard figure on this. I am convinced, however, that a very substantial amount of money is not covered by the amnesty.

Do you think a figure of £350 million is too high?

Mr. Quigley

I will not comment further in that regard, unless the Chairman requires me to do so. I have given an explanation of our thoughts in this area.

If you throw figures out about significant yield, you must have a ballpark figure in mind.

Mr. Quigley

I am not prepared to guesstimate beyond that which we have already engaged in. That is what the Deputy is asking me to do.

A figure of £50 million remains the best guesstimate available for potential outstanding yield?

Mr. Quigley

No, I am simply explaining a computation which was done, albeit with various caveats, which I have read into the record. I am not categorising any particular figure as the best Revenue estimate.

It is the only computation you have?

Mr. Quigley

It is a computation which I wanted to share with the committee because it appeared in the public arena.

That figure arises from Revenue notes for a press conference so it is the only computation available.

Mr. Quigley

Notes that were carefully drafted and contain a number of caveats which I have read to the committee.

That is right. It is the only available computation of a potential yield.

Mr. Quigley

I could not be certain of that.

You have to be.

Mr. Quigley

It is what was contained in my notes for the press conference which we released under the Freedom of Information Act.

To the best of your knowledge, it is the only computation done by you and your staff on the potential yield from this exercise, true or false?

Mr. Quigley

Provided the true or false answer comes complete with all the caveats which I have made, yes.

Sir Humphrey has a lot to learn. I accept what Mr. Quigley is saying and I accept the difficulties in which he is placed. Regarding the number of people being sent forward for prosecution under the amnesty, there are 30 cases under review and eight, nine or ten will go forward for prosecution, is that correct?

Mr. Quigley

I may have over-stated that figure. My colleague informs me the amnesty is at issue in about five cases.

Mr. Quigley

Yes, but a decision has not been taken that the amnesty is a sustainable basis for prosecution. It is a factor being considered and it will be investigated.

A file will be sent to the DPP in other words.

Mr. Quigley

No, I am not saying that. The apparent or possible breach of the amnesty is a factor being looked at as part of the investigation into the cases. That is all I am saying.

On the general Vote, Revenue has reduced the number of audits by 700 because of all the special investigations it is obliged to assist and co-operate with, be they the NIB, the Moriarty tribunal or other tribunals. How many Revenue staff and how much resources are tied up in those investigations? How does Revenue compute the figure of 700 lost audits in the general tax collection system with the level of staff resourcing dedicated to the tribunals - let us tie it in with those for the moment - taking place in Dublin Castle?

Mr. Quigley

No precise figure has been attributed. Undoubtedly, the Revenue organisation and its resources are under pressure. Approval has been given for a significant increase in staffing from 6,000 to 6,500. Following an agreement with the trade unions, we are making very good progress in getting that staffing into place. That will ease the position very considerably.

There are all sorts of reasons the number of audits may vary in a particular year. Certain audits may be more complex and require more time or inspectors assigned to audits may undergo training. The Deputy is correct in saying that the level of special investigations we have undertaken is a factor. Let us take one of those investigations. We had 37 auditors allocated to the look-back audit of the financial institutions supported by a back-up team of 30 auditors drawn from around the country. That makes 67 in total. They collected £173 million which is more than the total audit programme normally collects in a year.

What is the comparable figure for the tribunals?

Mr. Quigley

We are carefully monitoring and following up the tribunals. They are being looked at by a small number of people while we carry out this phase of the work. More work has to be done in the tribunals and we cannot cut across that——

I am just saying that the figure of 700 audits was lost as a result of Revenue's involvement in these special investigations, be they tribunals or investigations set up under companies legislation.

Mr. Quigley

I am trying to explain what we are doing. I have already mentioned the £173 million. In the National Irish Bank there are about 60 or 70 auditors involved part time in the districts. As the Comptroller and Auditor General has indicated, we have collected £23 million from those cases.

We have a core team of about ten auditors and a back-up team of 20 working in Ansbacher. So far £8 million, as mentioned by the Comptroller and Auditor General, has been collected in payments. A large number of cases are emerging which will require more resources. I have publicly indicated that the basic list of 120 is possibly only the tip of the iceberg. There are associated entities and trusts, perhaps in excess of 400, and other people involved in offshore activity who are coming under Revenue scrutiny as a result of these inquiries. We will pursue all those cases whether there are 1,000, 800 or whatever. That is essential priority work in view of the events of recent years and I make no apology for it. The amounts of money being obtained are very significant but, more importantly, the public and the people to whom we are accountable in the Oireachtas demand that Revenue make that prioritisation.

Mr. Quigley

If the level of audit activity has to vary a little, so be it. I have confidence in the success of this policy. If it was not successful, the demands on resources would require a very significant review. I am satisfied that with the increase in staffing, a substantial part of which was directed towards audit and investigation, we will be able to manage the normal level of audit activity.

Has the £8 million referred to been raised so far? Without going into the detail of the investigation into Ansbacher-Cayman, which you have described as ongoing, does Revenue have a timeframe for its completion? Obviously the NIB, which is fully justified in terms of deployment of resources compared to amounts raised, will not take three years. Is Revenue happy that the investment in the Ansbacher investigation is more than paying for the amount of resources being deployed?

Mr. Quigley

I have absolutely no doubt about that. It has to be done.

It has to be done but is the number of staff deployed paying for itself?

Mr. Quigley

Absolutely, and that will continue because the number of cases is very significant. It is the most complicated arrangement we have had to deal with. It involves a whole infrastructure of arrangements covering offshore accounts and so-called discretionary trusts - they may not have been especially discretionary in the sense that arrangements were made to give instructions - in a complicated——

You have broken through those trusts.

Mr. Quigley

We have obtained 65,000 documents from financial institutions so far using the powers given to us in 1999 and this is only a part of it. We are also interviewing the people concerned and using our powers to require them to supply information. We are using our third party powers under section 902A of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997, to compel third parties to supply information. It is an extremely demanding job on which I cannot put a timeframe. However, I am convinced that it will more than make up the money it is costing. The confidence-building effect of Revenue being seen to tackle this activity will more than repay costs incurred in terms of time and the number of auditors assigned to it.

Given that you have not put a timescale on the investigation, is there any point in asking if Revenue is one quarter or half way there?

Mr. Quigley

No.

Fair enough. You have been very frank in your disclosures and I thank you for that. I will not pursue the matter further.

I was surprised by the statement in the contribution on the Vote account that between 3% and 11% of GDP could be attributed to the black economy. Obviously Revenue is also pursuing that. I will conclude on this point because Deputy Rabbitte is pointing at his watch and obviously wants to get in to ask a few questions. There is one question with a constituency interest for myself and Deputy Rabbitte which has been very relevant in recent weeks. The settled community wonders if Revenue has special arrangements for the collection of taxes from migratory traders who either travel in and out of the State or operate within the State's boundaries. Is it possible to collect taxes from them and are tax laws fully enforced? Does Revenue have special arrangements for the payment of social welfare entitlements to migratory traders and what arrangements does it have for investigating and collecting tax liabilities from them?

Mr. Quigley

It is part of our activity to gain intelligence on these traders. We have, for example, powers under the VAT Act to require security upfront where a person is carrying out a sale, auction or similar activity. We can use, and have used, that power. The Revenue's mobile service is also very important in pulling together information from the various parts of the organisation. It can tackle this by collecting information for us. We seek to collect the taxes in that way.

The figures the Deputy mentioned about the putative size of the black economy are derived from a macro-economic study. Our own Revenue partnership committee, composed of trade unions, management and staff, is looking at this. We are studying a draft report that has been prepared. One can work out, macro-economically, a certain size for the black economy. In some countries it may vary between 10% and 12% of GDP and 30% of GDP in at least one European country mentioned in that study. We are listed somewhere in between.

It is a significant problem because there are two aspects to it. First, there is the fact that these people are not paying tax and making a contribution to the coffers of the community to fund services and so forth. Second, there is the phenomenon that the bona fide trader is being penalised by these people. They are not paying tax so the bona fide trader who is registered and paying tax is at a disadvantage. We have paid a lot of attention to this. We can do more and the partnership report, which we are studying, will identify new areas where Revenue can take action both in relation to the type of trader you talked about and to sectors of the economy where cash payments may be the order of the day. Revenue has to be more effective in using the information it has to deal with those sectors and in pulling together all the information to tackle them.

I was impressed with the facts you presented in your report to the committee. It is refreshing when an official of your standing approaches the committee in that way. I am particularly pleased to note the substantial progress made by the Revenue Commissioners under your stewardship. We will give you every support in that work. You used phrases such as "all bets are off" and "double barrelled". Perhaps you might add the word "posse" because we want you to have a posse to follow up these people. The message you have given today clearly indicates to the criminals who have robbed the State that they will not get off the hook and that they will be followed, however long it takes. I am glad you have stated that that is the case. We support you fully in that regard.

You mentioned £1 billion and went on to say that 50% of that would be non-collectible. That is £500 million. Can you give an indication of what category of people and companies are involved? Are they people who have died or companies which have gone into liquidation?

Mr. Quigley

On behalf of my organisation, I greatly appreciate the Deputy's helpful comments. I must account fully to the committee. We are determined to make the kind of progress that has been discussed here this morning. The committee has on a number of occasions indicated its view on the prosecution issue. I believe we are making progress now in relation to the serious tax evasion cases where our cases are beginning to come through, under our own investigations. The arrangements we have set up with the DPP under which he takes cases directly from Revenue have been helpful and those cases are beginning to come through. I believe we will get results over a period.

In relation to the prosecution for failure to file tax returns, we have made more progress than was apparent from the figures. We are now taking a new initiative to allow those non-filing cases to be prosecuted, whereby the arrangements are to be handled directly by the State solicitor rather than coming through the Revenue solicitor's office, outside Dublin. That will help us further to erode the stock of cases which are waiting to be dealt with. We will be able to streamline more and get the cases coming through more quickly.

With regard to the £500 million, we have come from enormous figures which were a source of much public scandal. There was £3.5 billion tax revenue outstanding and it is down to £1 billion. We cannot and should not make any secret of how we have done that. We have not collected all that money. We have collected many hundreds of millions of pounds as a result of arrears projects and using Customs and Excise personnel in local collection arrangements, that is, by visiting houses, properties and so forth. We have collected many hundreds of millions of pounds that were collectible but a significant part of that money was an artificial estimate from the pre-self-assessment era. While it is our responsibility, we put our proposals to the Comptroller and Auditor General in 1996 and 1997 and, while he indicated that we have to take our own decisions and be accountable for them, he saw merit in the new principles we were following. We have ruthlessly written off the artificially inflated figures that had no meaning except on the back of an envelope. At that time the inspector, understandably, erred on the right side in sending out the estimate because there was no return, but it inflated the estimate and was unreal.

Second, we were keeping in our accounts all the companies that had ceased trading or been liquidated. It was unreal. What we do now, as does any efficient financial organisation, is write them off up front. Then we get money out of our activities. We are extremely active in the insolvency area. A total of 29 companies were liquidated last year on petition by Revenue to the High Court. We visited 150 creditor meetings and we took steps in regard to ten phoenix companies to have them liquidated. We are active in this area. However, we now write them off up front and if we get money, it comes back into the accounts and is not lost to the Exchequer.

The £1 billion is good progress. I am worried in one sense because as a monetary amount, it is slightly misleading. One will always have a flow of money, like in any financial institution, which at the end of the year is in the process of being collected and requires certain action but has not come home to roost, so to speak. There are figures in the report on the appropriation accounts for our net receipts. Our gross receipts in 1999 were £28 billion, before taking away the VAT we repay to businesses or the PRSI we pass to the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, for whom we are agents. Our collection is massive with the growth in the economy and unless we become even faster than we are in controlling compliance, one could find that monetary amount increasing simply because it represents a point in time picture of the money that is passing through the system but requires action on our part to collect. We have to do something to keep it as low as possible.

In terms of the percentage, I have no doubt it will still come down. We intend to make commitments to try to move in a more sophisticated way so that a ten year debt should not be there but should be written off or collected. If anything is longer than six years, it should either be in the courts or in the process of being pursued by the sheriffs or we should be collecting the money. We intend to nail our colours to the mast in our new strategy statement and outline the time periods we are aiming at.

There could be a number of categories involved in the £500 million. There could be further ceased trading cases because even at a time of strong economic growth there are always cases of businesses going to the wall. They may be in there and we would have to write them off. We might get something out of the liquidations. There is also a substantial amount of estimated debt still in the figures. As I said earlier, 20% of the outstanding debt relates to pre-1991. There are undoubtedly categories which I could not assume to be real or collectible. That is why we say that on our best estimate, the figure for collectible tax might be the £500 million.

In the course of reading the reports and documentation and, indeed, the other documentation you supplied prior to this meeting, the National Irish Bank seems to stick out like a financial sore thumb. In section 16 you refer to the number of accounts under the Clerical Medical Insurance Company at the Isle of Man based products market. You go on to explain the difficulty you have in getting information to pursue these. Under special investigations we again see National Irish Bank and the fact that 12 individuals have been referred for criminal investigation with a view to prosecution through the courts. Is there something more difficult in relation to National Irish Bank as against the other financial institutions which seem to have cleared their affairs more quickly than NIB? Is there a particular reason NIB seems to crop up like a sore thumb in each report in terms of the effort necessary to get to grips with the customers they have been dealing with and with their affairs in general?

Mr. Quigley

No, I could not in all honesty say there is something intrinsically more difficult there. The NIB investigation has received significant publicity because of the circumstances and the background at the time of these policies. On one of the first occasions when the power was used, we got the names of those depositors or account holders from the bank as they were intermediaries for insurance products abroad. The list was supplied by the bank under our powers. The problem, which I mentioned in trying to contextualise the amount of effort required by Revenue to follow through, is that there are 429 cases - we have recently been supplied with a small addendum to that list - each of which is investigated individually requiring a huge effort going back into the 1980s and 1990s in order to tie together all the information and reach settlements. National Irish Bank, like the other banks, co-operated with the look-back audits and were part of the settlements. We are looking at a phenomenon in terms of individual account holders - the same arises in terms of Ansbacher, though that is even more complicated because of the intrinsic complexity in the arrangements set up - in that it requires very detailed, painstaking investigation. Some people will be more ready to settle than others - I am talking about individuals, not financial institutions.

Could you say that you are on target to follow through and bring this down to manageable proportions in terms of the progress you have made and are likely to make in future and in accordance with the targets you have set?

Mr. Quigley

Yes, Deputy I could say that, with confidence. If we can deal with this underlying tax problem and Ansbacher we can see a way through here. We must also become smarter in Revenue and learn from what has happened. We are talking about issuing guidelines for all these activities so everybody knows exactly what is expected from them. We are doing this for DIRT for the future. There is a major cultural change in the entire financial area. Revenue now has very significant powers of access to financial information and financial institutions. We can go into banks and conduct an audit, unrelated to DIRT. We can conduct a normal audit. We could not do that previously. Section 905 of the Taxes Consolidation Act has been amended to give us that power. I see us now having to make progress with all these investigations and then getting everything on a regular basis so Revenue activity in these areas is par for the course and the normal thing to happen. We still have major problems in relation to the whole offshore activity, which is an international problem, but are making progress - we need to make more progress. We also need to deal pragmatically with the underlying tax and make progress in that regard.

I note Revenue's new tax claim form which has been circulated - I got my own within the past week or so. It contains a good deal more questions and information which will be very useful. I assume if people falsify returns it would be an effective weapon in Revenue's armoury. I ask Revenue to perhaps ask local area taxation offices to be available and helpful to people as many people may not fully understand the ramifications of the revised forms which have been circulated.

Mr. Quigley

I would say yes to both questions. The information will certainly be usable and could form a basis of prosecution if the information not previously on the form is handled properly. We are trying to have a good customer service approach despite the emphasis on anti-evasion. We have to do more in that regard and we will be making new commitments. We are helping employers through videos, etc. on the new tax system. We tried to simplify the new forms as much as possible, but there is a balance between simplification and getting the information. Previously the Deputy raised, in the context of his constituency, the servicing arrangements which are partly from Dublin and partly from Dundalk. When we are doing the restructuring on a regional basis we will have an opportunity to look at various areas to see how we can best serve customers.

I am glad of that as it means that effectively people have to travel to Dublin - it means a day off work.

There is much material here. The Revenue audit programme alone is something we should devote more time to on another occasion because if its importance. Mr. Quigley's statement of practice has attracted much prominent comment and coverage to the effect that it is merely another amnesty. Is that a fair description of it?

Mr. Quigley

It is a wrong description. We can look at definitions of the amnesties. The 1988 amnesty, the first major amnesty - there had been small amnesties prior to that - involved paying the full amount of tax while interest and penalties were not paid. The 1993 amnesty was a qualitatively different amnesty as it did not require payment of the full amount of tax. A person could settle his or her entire obligations by paying 15% of the income or gains which were undeclared but which were being settled under the amnesty, with no further interest or penalties. In terms of those hallmarks, this could not be categorised as an amnesty. Every person, even in phase one which has a carrot to persuade people to contact Revenue, will pay 100% of the tax involved and will be required to pay interest and penalties of the same amount. Admittedly, in limiting the interest and penalties to 100% of the tax, we are making a concession as that person under our normal code of practice could pay 200% or more depending on how long the period is and the interest which would accrue. Therefore, we are giving a concession to attract people by voluntary disclosure. We are giving a concession, but the nature of the concession could not possibly be categorised as an amnesty.

Some people have asked - this is the other dimension which the committee might require me to deal with - "Is an undertaking that the Revenue will not investigate with a view to prosecution not an amnesty, the same as previous amnesties?" The 1993 amnesty did not have as much emphasis on prosecution, except for people who would not avail of it - we have discussed that. However, in terms of the nature of the amnesty, the fact that a person was not prosecuted was not highlighted as an intrinsic part of the amnesty. There was an undertaking that for the future cases would be followed up and we are trying to do that as best we can, subject to the limitations I mentioned.

The reality of the prosecution, as I have tried to explain in my opening comments, is that we could not possibly amass the evidence to deal with 30,000 or 40,000 cases in that way and, therefore, I regard our undertaking as an assurance that Revenue, for those people who voluntarily declare and make a full declaration for everything involved in stage one, would not initiate an investigation with a view to prosecution. However, pari passu with that we are saying - no doubt our credibility will rest on this - in terms of the second stage, where we hope to reduce the problem to more realistic levels, that there would be investigations by Revenue with a view to prosecution of cases.

On the manner in which amnesties have been assessed, I do not think this is an amnesty. It is a realistic and pragmatic approach to a very big problem for Revenue. It is so big that, as I said, some people indicated we would not deal with it, but we are dealing with it. We have said seriously we are dealing with it in the timeframe I have indicated. We have encouraged tax advisers and others to tell people that the best advice they can get is that they should settle their affairs under this voluntary disclosure because what comes later is tougher and Revenue is serious about delivering results on it.

We must do all that but that is our statement in relation to this arrangement. I regard it as a sensible arrangement taken by Revenue. The decision rested with us and we take responsibility for it. The decision was taken to manage our resources to deliver on a commitment we made to the compliant taxpayers that we would pursue this. However, the decision was taken to deliver on it in a way which was meaningful and, I hope, in a way in which we could actually deliver it, whereas if we attempted to do everything in relation to every one of these cases, our efforts might fall somewhat flat and we might not obtain the money which the compliant taxpayers are entitled to see coming into the Exchequer on foot of our efforts.

Mr. Quigley has given more information today than heretofore - the members of the sub-committee who were concerned with this problem would be minded to take a similar view. On the basis of the information he has given today, perhaps the entire committee would take the view, given the complexities of the issues and given the question of best deployment of resources in terms of recovering moneys for the Exchequer etc., that it is a rigorous and well balanced formula to deal with a very extensive problem. However, from the point of view of the members of the committee in terms of the questions asked, there may also be a caveat concerning the determination of the Revenue to implement the scheme as set out. Those in category one, as Mr. Quigley explained, are people who put their affairs right under the 1993 amnesty, and that is the end of it. Those in category two are people who kept their heads down and then came forward under this arrangement. This second category will be liable for 100% of the tax plus 100% penalties and interest.

However, there is a third category of people who misdeclared under the amnesty. The question which occurs or which one finds oneself having to answer is how will the Revenue know that they misdeclared? If I come into the office and say that I have read about this statement of practice in the newspaper, I want to tell the Revenue that I am one of the bogus account holders, I ask how much I owe and sign a cheque for that amount, how will the Revenue know that I misdeclared and abused the amnesty of 1993?

Mr. Quigley

I do not know the cases in the 1993 amnesty, and Deputy Rabbitte knows that because he and the committee asked me about it previously. I was short in my analysis when I was comparing what was an amnesty and what was not an amnesty. I should have added a significant factor regarding the 1993 amnesty, that the information involved did not come into normal Revenue. That information came in with Chinese walls and the honest answer to the Deputy's question is that I do not know the cases.

I do know that when somebody had arrears of tax on the record and when they heard from Revenue subsequently, they produced what we call a form of evidence. I have the authority, under the legislation, to write off the debt and we have written off £44 million from roughly 9,000 cases. Not all those cases were considered by us to be eligible for the amnesty because they made some infringements and, therefore, we denied the benefit of the amnesty to perhaps 1,200 cases.

In relation to the problem we are talking about here, I do not know the cases because these are probably not people who have a debt on the record - that is the honest answer to the Deputy's question. What I do know is that we have not excluded those cases from this statement of practice and, therefore, they are eligible to participate under it in making a declaration of all their liabilities, including liabilities in respect of the amnesty years, as in the case raised by the Deputy, where they abused the amnesty by only making a partial declaration. They do not have to say anything. Like everybody else, they are required to sign up for this and formally indicate that they are making a full disclosure. If the person wanted to indicate that he or she had availed of the 1993 amnesty, albeit partially, and said, "Under the 1993 legislation, my certificate is null and void", which would be the case because the person did not comply with the amnesty conditions, "but I paid in money and, therefore, pound for pound, even though I paid it into the chief special collector, I want the Revenue to deduct that from the amount now computed, with full disclosure, under this statement of practice", we would say, "Yes, that is in accordance with the legislation."

Will the person concerned not make an assessment of that kind of question on the balance of advantage to himself rather than in terms of coming clean?

Mr. Quigley

He may do so but if he comes clean in the sense in which the Deputy is putting it to me, that he makes no reference whatsoever, which is a possibility, we are dealing with a case which abused the amnesty and the law, and the offences in section 9 did not make a qualitative difference between failure to avail or abuse - those two categories are there all over the place. Such a person must now make a full disclosure if he or she wants to get the benefit of this. The person is not obligated, as the Deputy correctly pointed out, to say anything about the amnesty. He or she then foregoes the money he or she paid in and must pay the 100% of the tax, as against 15% which he or she paid partially in 1993, and the person must pay the same again - 100% - in interest and penalties. It is not the end of the story, although it is a much more onerous regime than the 1993 amnesty.

Perhaps you could hold your caveat so we can probe that point. If in 1993 I went in to get myself the very valuable certificate from the special collector and I declared £10,000 when I should have declared £100,000, I have my certificate so how is anyone to know what I did? You cannot get behind that.

Mr. Quigley

I thought our analysis related to whether a person came in, not whether a person has a certificate and thinks Revenue is bluffing, which we are not, and has not done the job properly. The person takes his chances that it will be phase two before Revenue gets to him. Revenue will be operating in a different mode in phase two - we will be investigating each case individually. We will not be put off simply because a person waves a piece of paper. We are not put off by such actions. We have gone to the appeal commissioners because of a provision in section 5 of the 1993 Act for Revenue to look at back years if we can convince them there is a prima facie case to be answered. We would still have some cards to play at that point. The holding of an amnesty certificate does not signify the end of a matter if we are serious about investigating such cases.

Let us focus on paragraph 28 which is of most concern in the public domain. Revenue has an excellent website. Many people, including myself, seem to have missed the point about paragraph 28. It appears to offer the prospect of cracking open a number of the amnesty cases. In other words, if a person comes in and admits to having misdeclared under the amnesty, he does not receive the protection of the 15% and is then required to pay 100%.

Mr. Quigley

That is correct.

That is a progressive decision and step.

Mr. Quigley

They lose the benefits of the amnesty.

What I am trying to establish is why a person would be so foolish as to do that. Why would a person inform you he misdeclared? Why would the person envisaged in paragraph 28 do that unless he is facing his maker and is seeking to tidy up his affairs once and for all? Perhaps he fears that a bigger judge than the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners will be judging him.

Mr. Quigley

Absolutely. We are dealing with this problem and we do not know of those cases. We have been upfront on this issue from day one. I answered many questions about the amnesty at our press conference. Commentators published reports indicating that people who had availed of the amnesty were eligible and so on.

We are simply saying that people can come into this arrangement - they are not excluded in the qualifying conditions. There are two options available in the case which the Deputy refers to. In the case where the person does not wish to forego the £10,000 he would be identifying that he availed partially of the amnesty. The same would apply if the figure was £25,000. A person may be old and may not wish to leave matters which may affect the next generation unfinished. Such a person has serious questions to ask himself or herself, even if he or she has abused the amnesty, about putting his or her affairs in order under this statement of practice. That person can decide to refer to the partial declaration in 1993. If he refers to the partial declaration in phase one - voluntary disclosure - he could claim the credit in his computation. The computations will be open to scrutiny by Revenue. We will undertake an investigation and audit of a representative sample of those cases. If Revenue came across such a case and was not convinced of full disclosure it could investigate the matter further.

The other scenario relates to the person who decides to forget about the £10,000 on the basis that Revenue is not aware of it because the information is not available to it. That person decides to cover everything, including what he sought to cover in 1993 and pay the 100% in interest and penalties. That could happen. That case, equally, if it was one of those we looked at, could be open to scrutiny. They are the two scenarios of the person who abuses the amnesty.

I do not want to over-complicate matters but I think the situation which the Deputy was putting to me related to a person who simply decides to take his chances, do nothing and produce the amnesty certificate. Such a person is not involved in phase one but will be involved in phase two. Revenue obtains names from financial institutions and is in a position to raise queries. Even though a person availed of the amnesty and we do not know about it, we can get names from financial institutions and raise further questions. We will be in investigation mode during phase two. That person now has to declare his hand. He has to waive the amnesty certificate if he wishes to stop the investigation. If it is not full disclosure he is then in a serious situation - he is in a serious situation anyway because he has not availed of the voluntary route in phase one.

Will there be different categories? You will recall that one financial institution brought to our attention the wholesale redesignation which took place in 1991. They are people who would not have anything to tell in the 1993 amnesty. Is a whole category cut off?

Mr. Quigley

No, they are not cut off. We have to differentiate between the DIRT problems and underlying tax problems. Once cases were redesignated in 1991, DIRT was being paid. We took account of those redesignations in our look-back audits in computing the DIRT liabilities of the financial institutions. We are now in an investigating mode looking at underlying tax problems in phase two. If a person had a bogus non-resident account at any point and had tax liabilities related to that account he would come within the statement of practice and would have the choice of making voluntary disclosure——

Even if he had been redesignated?

Mr. Quigley

Yes. The redesignation would be a matter which would affect the liability of DIRT on the financial institution.

Do you ask the person identified under paragraph 28 if he had availed or misdeclared under the 1993 amnesty?

Mr. Quigley

No.

Is there a reason there ought not to be a standard accompanying dimension to the statement of practice which says a person coming forward will have to say whether he declared under an amnesty?

Mr. Quigley

I am not sure that it would be of tremendous advantage from anybody's point of view. We have set out an approach which I am not claiming is perfect. It is designed as a straightforward approach to dealing with the problem. We would then be requiring that person to claim credit for the amount of tax he may have paid to the chief special collector. We had to make a decision as to whether we would allow in the people who did not avail of or abused the amnesty by not making a full disclosure. The answer was clear. That catchment area is the problem we are dealing with in relation to underlying tax. If we excluded certain people, who would we be letting in? We are trying to deal with the categories being talked about by the Deputy, namely, those who did not avail of the amnesty or those who abused it. They had bogus non-resident accounts prior to 1991 and if they have underlying tax which was not declared to Revenue they must be included. We are trying to deal with the problem by at least forcing those people to make a choice and pay quite a demanding amount of money in comparison to what they could have settled for in 1993.

Are there arrangements in place to tell the committee at a future date how many persons avail of the statement of practice?

Mr. Quigley

We will certainly be monitoring it. At this stage we are in information mode. My colleagues are attending regional seminars around the country for tax practitioners. We will be doing further advertising. We are getting queries on our hotline and will be producing question and answer leaflets to explain the implications of this to people. I have made it clear that we have nailed our colours to the mast in terms of 15 November - that is the date we have set. I envisage that people will start making declarations. We will monitor that and I will be in a position to make a report to the committee on the amounts and the total number of declarations.

Regarding Ansbacher accounts, there was in the Cayman Islands a recent court case and my understanding is that the names were not published by the bank. Is Revenue satisfied that it will find out who the beneficial owners are of the various moneys associated with the Ansbacher accounts?

Mr. Quigley

We are confident that we are making progress and we are amassing very substantial amounts of information. There is a slowness on the part of some people to indicate all the information we want, but we are pushing on regardless. We are going to the High Court as needs be and are getting access to the information. I have no doubt we will get access to more information. Far from reducing, the number of names being looked at by Revenue is increasing very rapidly. Names of individuals and companies which may not have been pure Ansbacher cases but which concern other offshore cases are now coming within our ken as a result of the inquiries we have launched. Of course, we were not involved in the application in the Cayman Islands. As I understand it, that was initiated by the bank from whom the High Court inspectors were seeking information. It did not involve Revenue.

We are pushing ahead with our own investigations. I am confident we will make progress. I cannot give the committee a guarantee about the time as it is the most demanding of exercises. We are using advanced computer software to match together the information we are receiving from different institutions and individuals. I have no doubt we will succeed in tracing a very substantial number of these cases in due course and we are determined to try to achieve this. It will be very demanding work. As the flow of information coming to us increases, people will be less relaxed about withholding information or not giving us the full information we are seeking. We will piece together these cases and will not hesitate to go to the High Court to require a person by direction of the court to provide additional information to us if we need it.

When you say there is a slowness on the part of some parties, could you tell me the generic type of those concerned? Are they individuals, professional firms, banks or firms of solicitors?

Mr. Quigley

Generally there is a slowness. Individuals who may be on the initial list will wonder how much information Revenue has.

They are playing poker.

Mr. Quigley

Some poker is being played, but there is a way to play poker and Revenue is busy in going about its business. The organisation is very good in such an investigation.

You will take the pot at the end of the day.

Mr. Quigley

Our organisation will make a determined effort to deal with this. As we get more information the pieces will add up. I hope the determination of the Revenue to use the new powers obtained in 1999 to force people to court to provide information will have an influence on proceedings.

The amount of net receipts was up by £2.5 billion in 1999 over 1998. What were the net receipts in 2000 over 1999? What are the projected net receipts for 2001 based on the figures to date?

Mr. Quigley

In 2000 the total——

Net, not gross, receipts.

Mr. Quigley

The total net receipts was £21,419 million, which includes the Department of Finance income levy and so on——

That is up £3 billion.

Mr. Quigley

——as against £20,269 million in the budget estimate. We exceeded target by £1.5 billion. In 1999 that was £18,447 million.

It is £21,419 million versus £18,447 million, versus £15.9 billion in 1998.

Mr. Quigley

Yes.

It has gone up by over one third in two years from 1998 to 2000.

Mr. Quigley

It is massive growth in tax revenue, reflecting the buoyancy in the economy primarily, but also reflecting Revenue's system streamlining.

Just remind us of the 2001 projection.

Mr. Quigley

The post-budget estimate for 2001 is £24,122 million. I think it is fair to say, as the Minister for Finance has indicated in dealing with Exchequer returns, that we do not have the same buoyancy in the current year and it remains to be seen what the outturn will be. Various things have happened, including the foot and mouth disease crisis, which have affected those figures. We have been in a very good situation from the point of view of a tax collector in that our revenue every year for the past ten years, primarily reflecting the growth in the economy, has been mushrooming ahead.

In relation to this year, when were the last published figures for 2001?

Mr. Quigley

The last published figures were probably at the end of March. Figures are published each month on the website. There will be another assessment by the Minister for Finance at the end of June when he will have a press conference.

I have a few questions, one of which relates to the write-off. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that the grounds for write-off are liquidation, receivership and bankruptcy. In 1999, the figure was £28 million and in 1998, it was £92 million. He states that the major reduction in write-offs in 1999 arose because the backlog of liquidation cases, which had existed at the start of the implementation policies, had been brought up to date. From that, one would expect that there would be an increase in the amount from liquidation. Am I reading it incorrectly?

Mr. Quigley

No, the Deputy is zoning in on the right point. When we embarked on this new policy, we had, within the figures for the debt, a very large number of cases of liquidations where we had not written off the tax and, therefore, the figure was inflated to that extent. When we adopted our more commercially oriented approach, we began to write off those liquidation cases upfront. At that point we had a backlog of cases which had not been written off.

Therefore, they were written off in 1998.

Mr. Quigley

The write-off figure increased rapidly to nearly £300 million and then began to decrease again, as the table shows. The figure has returned, as the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, to a more normal level, where it was below £100 a year. Of course it does not mean that we are finished with write-offs. We will be looking at this. There is also the automatic programmes, where we wrote off certain amounts.

I apologise to Mr. Quigley for interrupting but, as I must leave in two minutes, I want to ask a few more questions. I now understand the position. I was just asking about the liquidation cases.

To turn to the investigation branch prosecutions, in 1999 there were 26 cases in hand, 13 cases accepted for investigation, six cases dropped for lack of evidence, three cases settled by the court and 30 cases in hand on 31 December 1999. Will Mr. Quigley give the figures for 2000 and the available figures for 2001? How many cases were accepted for investigation in 2000 and how many were accepted for investigation to date in 2001?

Mr. Quigley

I am not sure whether I can give a complete response to that question off-hand. I certainly can get the information and send it to the committee.

How many cases were accepted for investigation in 2000?

Mr. Quigley

There were 30 cases in hand as of 31 December 1999. There were convictions in four of those cases. In three of those cases, we are in court. Directions have been sought from the DPP for prosecution in three cases——

How many cases were added in 2000?

Mr. Quigley

——three cases were closed because of lack of evidence and there were 17 still under investigation. That is the composition of the 30 cases.

How many extra cases were there in 2000?

Mr. Quigley

We are continuing to investigate cases with a view to prosecution. Currently we have 35 open cases, including three before the courts. In 2000, we had three convictions, including one jail sentence. Therefore, there are 35 cases but there is a flow of cases. There are cases falling, either because they are dealt with or because we would abandon them if there was insufficient evidence, and there are new cases coming in all the time.

It will be quite a challenge to deal with the outturn of the 25,000 to 50,000 cases. The order of magnitude in the future is huge when compared to the present number of cases.

Mr. Quigley

It is quite a challenge but if we do our job well on the voluntary disclosure, we can manage the extent of the problem. I emphasise that even if we did not succeed in prosecuting a high number of those remaining, every person in that situation in stage two must ask themselves a question because there is a possibility that each of them may be a case selected by Revenue to be prosecuted. In terms of the opportunity which we are according in the statement of practice, there is a very serious issue for tax advisers and people who are in this situation, including older people who may be worried about it. I make no secret of the fact that our objective is to maximise the take-up in phase one and to have less of a problem in phase two, but in phase two there will be prosecutions.

Mr. Quigley, I thank you for your comprehensive response to the question. We all probably have a better insight into the situation. As I represent a rural constituency, at local level there are probably quite a few people who have one of these bogus accounts. Recently I got a telephone call at 8 a.m. on a Sunday morning from a man who came back from England. I asked him what was he doing ringing me at that hour and he said that he could not sleep - I suppose he was using me for therapy. He put his sentiments on paper. His letter states that he went abroad to work and lays out how he was roped into opening one of those non-resident accounts by the bank when he threatened to take out his money - approximately £35,000 - in preference for an account with a building society, which was offering a higher rate of return at the time. He states that the bank official, in her pursuit to retain him as a customer, said she would open one of these accounts for him, everything was strictly confidential and that he need have no worries about the Revenue finding out about it. He states that now it appears, 15 years later, that he is caught for something which was foisted on him by the bank official. He states that the bank official in question gets away scot-free and he is left nursing this bill.

The reason I am referring to this letter is that it encapsulates what Deputy Rabbitte said earlier. He further states that he availed of the amnesty in 1993 and he went to the same bank official to seek details about his non-resident account for the amnesty and she told him to forget about this account as it was strictly confidential and not to disclose it. He states that when he asked her about this account, she said she did not know anything about it as everything is done from head office in Dublin. He states that she gets away scot-free while he is penalised, possibly prosecuted, jailed and shamed even though since 1983 there are laws forbidding bank officials from helping people to evade tax. The person concerned would not give me his name. He said that he would see me going to Mass on Sunday, but I do not know who he is.

My wife took a telephone call over the weekend from a Kerryman who was elated that the "No" campaign won. He said that it was good enough for us, who introduced legislation penalising misfortunate people in respect of DIRT. There is no connection between the two issues, but the result was good enough for the politicians, as far as he was concerned.

I put it to you, Mr. Quigley, that in many cases the banks encouraged and were complicit in this type of evasion in the past, as was pointed out in that letter. Do people in that situation have a redress against banks? Perhaps it is an unfair question to ask you, Mr. Quigley, but people have sued National Irish Bank for wrongful advice at the time.

At the end of the day one can use emotive words but there are circumstances which must be taken into account. In many cases, people who availed of such accounts probably would not even have known of their existence except that they were advised by professionals to open one because of the competition at the time between building societies and banks for accounts due to deposit rates etc.

I refer to that letter because its author is an example of one who is classified as a DIRT evader. Since then, the person concerned has spoken to me again and I would say he is totally traumatised over it. I acknowledge that it is up to him to resolve it but my main point relates to the interaction. The bank official who advised him 15 years ago to open the account is still working in the bank and that official told him in 1993 that he should not bother with the amnesty, that the Revenue would never know about it. Perhaps it would be unfair for you to respond to what I have said, but I anticipate that the banks will finish up being sued by customers for wrongful advice.

I want to raise another matter which we discussed recently with the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Concern was expressed about the ongoing tax scam by 31 meat processors throughout the country. I understand an investigation has already been initiated in this regard. A sum of £335,000 was recovered from a small number of meat companies. Perhaps Mr. Quigley will outline what progress has been made in this area and what is the current position.

Mr. Quigley

We certainly have been active in this area although our position differs from 1993 onwards. In the pre-internal market period, Revenue people on the Customs side would have had responsibility at the frontiers in regard to the smuggling of animals. Sheep and other animals were confiscated during that period. That no longer arose when the borders came down within the internal market and Customs officers ceased to have responsibility in this area.

We are, of course, responsible for the administration of the VAT system. VAT was cited as a factor in the scams which occurred, in particular the flat rate rebate which is paid to unregistered farmers. The system is very good in the sense that farmers sell produce which, for the most part, is zero rated, yet they incur expenditure on inputs for which they are entitled to rebates. Rather than forcing all farmers to register, we provided this flat rate addition for people resident in the State who were entitled to it when selling sheep or cattle to meat factories. Some of our auditors became concerned about this system in the 1990s and we, therefore, introduced a system under which people claiming the flat rate rebate were required to make declarations.

In 1997 or 1998 we were supplied with information via the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development on abuses of the system. Following receipt of that information, we initiated a programme of audits. Some 11 cases were investigated and a settlement sum of £383,000 was obtained, of which £355,000 related to VAT. That is the position as of March 2001.

There is a good level of co-operation between the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. We received a good deal of useful information as a result of occurrences during the foot and mouth disease crisis. The position has changed again on the smuggling side due to the introduction of regulations in this area. Sheep tagging will serve as an important control mechanism for the future. One factory, not yet audited, has been notified that it is under inquiry by the Revenue Commissioners. We intend to progress that inquiry and inquiries in 18 other factories as the foot and mouth disease restrictions are lifted. The audit programme should be completed by the end of this year.

Our focus is on compliance by the meat factories, particularly in the area of VAT in which we have collected substantial settlement amounts to date. We have not completed our work in this area and will pursue all of the information obtained from the Department.

If the audits to date have been successful, resulting in the recovery of £383,000, surely this is an admission on the part of the meat factories to involvement in a tax scam or VAT fraud. What further sanctions, if any, will be imposed on the companies, aside from the retrieval of the VAT amounts foregone?

Mr. Quigley

In the cases which have arisen to date, sufficient evidence to indicate that a prosecution would be successful was not forthcoming. If any of the cases yet to be audited yield evidence which satisfies public prosecution criteria, we would not rule out prosecution. To date, we have regularised the VAT position in the companies investigated.

To return to the DIRT issue, Mr. Quigley indicated earlier that in spite of the 15 November deadline, people sought extensions. What reasons were offered for seeking an extended timeframe when there is still six months to run?

Mr. Quigley

People made representations and sought clarification on various aspects of this matter. I indicated our intention to prepare a question and answer document to offer guidance to people. A list of clarifications was sought by one of the bodies involved to which we responded very speedily. We indicated that 15 November 2001 is our deadline. Much of the work in this area would be carried out by tax advisers. We have indicated that they should make the best computations they can. The involvement of tax advisers and agents will improve the quality of the submissions we receive and result in a successful completion of stage one. In light of other changes occurring in the area of tax administration and the tax system, some people feel the timeframe stipulated is very short. We do not intend to extend the deadline although we will provide any clarification sought and continue to deal with the mechanics of this issue such as payment arrangements etc.

You made your announcement one month ago, on 2 May?

Mr. Quigley

That is correct.

Have any settlements been made to date?

Mr. Quigley

I understand a number of the BNR forms have been submitted and there has been a significant stream of telephone calls to the hotline, averaging 50 a day at one point prior to the seminars being held. I sense there will be considerable interest in this area which we will explain further to people through a programme of regional seminars and advertisements. We will make it clear that an opportunity is available and that people must act now to be ready by 15 November.

I thank Mr. Quigley for his frankness. The discussion has been a very interesting one and the committee now has a greater appreciation of the issues in this area. We note the paragraphs in the accounts relating to the Revenue Commissioners.

The next meeting of this committee is scheduled for Thursday, 21 June.

The committee adjourned at 3 p.m. until Thursday, 21 June 2001.
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