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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 21 Jun 2001

Vol. 3 No. 15

Report on Value for Money Examination - Training and Development in the Civil Service, Department of Finance.

Mr. Purcell

Some £16.5 million was spent on Civil Service training and development in 1999. My examination sought to establish if the taxpayer was getting best value for money for this expenditure in terms of the organisation, management and overall effectiveness of the training provided. It involves surveying and analysing the expenditure on training by all Departments and major offices and examining in particular the role of the Department of Finance as exercised by its Centre for Management and Organisation Development, commonly referred to as CMOD.

As the range and complexity of the administrative tasks of the Civil Service increases, there is a commensurate need for training and development to equip staff at all levels with skills which will enable them to meet the quality of service demands in the changing environment in which they operate. The examination found that there was an unevenness in the quality and quantity of training provided across Departments. While some Departments had a planned and structured approach to training, others appeared to address the function in a more ad hoc way in the sense that there was little or no analysis of training needs and little in the line of meaningful review. Part of the problem might stem from the fact that training was often not high on the agenda of senior management in some Departments.

Looking at the type of training provided, our analysis showed that most training is technical in nature. This is what we might have expected and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but the customer focused approach which underpins many of the new developments in public administration suggests that the extra resources being pumped into this area should be concentrated on roles, attitudes and behaviour of staff, the so-called softer type of skills training.

The report also considers the type and amount of training given to top Civil Service management and suggests there should be a separate development programme put in place which takes account of the specific requirements of top managers. In this regard we can, perhaps, learn from the approaches adopted by leading edge companies and the United Kingdom Civil Service.

One of the negative points in the report is the lack of information held by some Departments and offices on their training activities. Not having this information in accessible form makes the task of monitoring and evaluating expenditure on training difficult if not impossible. I understand this problem is being addressed, as new information system systems are being introduced in the context of the implementation of the performance management and development system throughout the Civil Service.

Last, and arguably the most important, Departments should aim to develop evaluation systems based on measuring the effectiveness of training expenditure in terms of improved corporate performance. This will not be easy and I recognise that, but ultimately it represents the acid test in determining the impact of training and whether good value for money is being obtained. There is much more in the report, but what I have said reflects the main areas of concern.

Mr. J. Hurley

I will make a few brief comments. Mr. Considine and Mr. Embleton are here with me if there are detailed issues to be gone into. The report is welcome because it deals with a number of key issues we have to address. The environment in the Civil Service for training has changed considerably over the years because the needs of the Civil Service have diversified and with a rapidly growing economy they are more significant than they were in the past. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the performance management system which has been put in place throughout the Civil Service. One of the key spin offs from this is a better honed identification of the training needs in different organisations and a commitment to staff that those training programmes will be delivered. Under the PPF there is a commitment to increase the budget to 4% of payroll. That is being done and it has been increased to 3% of payroll. A significant investment is being made in training.

The Comptroller and Auditor General made a point about technical training. There is great emphasis on technical training because we are dealing with major projects on the implementation of delivering better Government, the Strategic Management Initiative, one of which is the performance management system. That means every individual will have to be trained in a particular performance management technique. A new financial management system has to be put in place across the Civil Service because our financial management systems are not adequate to cope with the information and accountability that is required. This is a major project that is under way.

A third project is the e-government operation which will affect the entire Civil Service. All these projects require technical training. That is not to say we are not interested in role and attitudinal training, but we were very much involved in attitudinal and role training for the past ten years to try to get to a stage where we could roll out significant changes within the Civil Service. We have set the legislative framework and the business planning process is in place and we are to the stage of three or four key projects in the financial area, personnel area and IT area that will make all the difference in going ahead. This will require a significant investment in technical training if these three projects, which will change the face of the Civil Service over a period, are to be successful and they must be. That is not to say that we put less value on attitudinal and role playing training, we do not. That was the investment we made to get to where we are at and we will continue to do that as and when we can. We have got to a stage where a change in attitude has been brought about and there is a receptive position within the Civil Service to move on to bigger projects which are essential for the rejuvenation and scaling up of the Civil Service going into this century. That is not to say other role or attitudinal training is not required, it is. The major investment in that was made to get to where we are at.

One of the questions on the questionnaire circulated asked if there is a training committee in the Department to which 57% of those who replied said effectively there was not. Based on the questions asked, it appears that whatever training programmes are in the Department, a substantial proportion of the staff do not know there is a training programme.

Mr. Considine

I see that.

That is on page 54.

Mr. Considine

As Mr. Hurley said, there were many changes and developments in the area of management in the last while, one of which has been the putting in place of partnership committees within Departments. This type of work, the training of staff, is one of the issues which feeds into that. While the definition of a training committee can be interpreted in various ways, the structures within Departments, particularly the partnership structure, facilitate this. Departments are also being pressed through the agreements in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness to do a training needs analysis and generally improve the focus on training. This will help underpin and give a focus to what the partnership committees can do in that regard.

I welcome what Mr. Hurley said. I read the report. There has been an ad hoc approach to training within the Civil Service with regard to selecting a particular training programme. There would be an assessment of training needs in industry and the training requirements would be planned and there would even be a management succession policy with regard to planning for the future. This is a theme to which we will return in the future. With the evolution of matters, better local government and the modernisation of the Civil Service, this is something to which we will return.

Administrative officers in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development must be the best trained of the lot, because they have an average of 19 days' training. There seems to be good training at the very top level and at the lower level——

Mr. Considine

They may be agricultural officers.

Administrative officers.

Mr. Embleton

Does it state administrative officers?

The best trained officials in the Civil Service are administrative officers in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. They spend 19 days a year on training courses. That is stated on one of the papers. Is that incorrect?

Mr. Embleton

I think the Chairman is right, but I think that should read "agricultural officer".

Mr. Embleton

Unless I am mistaken.

It states administrative officer in the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. J. Hurley

They are described as AOs. We can clarify that. I doubt very much whether administrative officers as we know them get——

Mr. Embleton

I would not have thought so. We will check that.

Mr. J. Hurley

That could be the case for technical training involved for agricultural officers. We will check that.

What about foreign language training, apart from French and German? I note Italian, Spanish and Russian classes had to be discontinued. People wanted to focus more on French and German. Those people probably did one of those languages in the leaving certificate and want to improve their knowledge of it.

Mr. Hurley

Those languages are the key ones for European interaction. French, German and English dominate discussions in Europe. When one does not have interpreters, if one had one of those languages, or if one had French and English, one would not have a difficulty. That is why we focus on those foreign languages. Maybe Mr. Considine would like to focus on that.

Mr. Considine

That is it. These are the key languages but, obviously, if people are being posted abroad with the Department of Foreign Affairs, etc., special arrangements are made in relation to those where different languages are recorded. If one goes to Brussels these days, for example, those two languages are the key ones.

You mentioned an increase of 3% in funding. You spent about £16.5 million on training and development in 1999. How much will be spent on training and development in 2001?

Mr. J. Hurley

I do not have that figure off hand. We probably would have started at about 2.5% or 2%. We were at that level at one stage. We are now at about 3%.

Mr. Embleton

We do not have the complete figures yet for 2000, but on the basis of the figures we have to hand, expenditure as a percentage of payroll was just over 3% in 2000. Incidentally, we expect it to be much higher this year because the training is ongoing for the performance management and development system. In essence, if the returns for 2000 hold up, we would have reached the target set down in Partnership 2000 of 3% by the end of the lifetime of that programme.

While much of the training is probably very valuable, surely there must have been a loss to the Exchequer due the high drop-out rate in various classes in Italian, Russian, Spanish, etc.? Can you put a figure on that loss due to people dropping out? I assume that the participant does not have to pay the costs and that it is probably the Civil Service which does so.

Mr. Considine

On that particular matter, which was given some airing in the newspapers, the emphasis was on the number which took the test at the end. These people attend on a voluntary basis and therefore the fact that they did not take the test does not mean they did not gain a significant benefit from it or that they did not do the vast bulk of the course. In any situation like that where there are long training courses, people get promoted or posted elsewhere, and such problems arise. Many of those people who have an interest in languages do come back again and take part in a subsequent series of lectures.

We would propose to try to put in place an arrangement to keep better records of attendances because in a way that is the key element. Languages is one area where it takes a great deal of time to become proficient. There are various estimates on how many hours a person requires to get to particular levels, but it does require time. We would be anxious to get a better appreciation of how much time people are spending at it.

My concern is that if there is clear proof that French, German and English are the popular languages on which people want to focus and if the experience is that people are dropping out of the Spanish, Italian and Russian classes, there is a consequential loss to the Exchequer if they do not finish the courses. Therefore there is a degree of seriousness entailed in an assessment of training. If an official states that he or she wants to learn Russian, Spanish or Italian, surely the experience to date would ensure that person would be asked is he or she making the right decision. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. Considine

Yes.

If the training is controlled, the person is serious about finishing it and recognises that if he or she wants to do the Russian programme, for instance, it will involve the commitment of a fair amount of time. Some languages are more difficult to learn than others. Many of us find French easier to learn because we learnt it at school and used it abroad as we got more familiar with it. German is a guttural language and Russian is probably more difficult. The point I am making is that if you want value for money and you are improving the training environment, one can use the historical data and ask the person is he or she right to choose a particular language.

Mr. Considine

That is correct, Chairman. That is exactly the approach we adopted in focusing on German and French. They are the languages in demand where there is likely to be a return to the State.

I thank the officials for their co-operation. We note all the Votes.

The witness withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until Thursday, 28 June 2001.
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