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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 2001

Vol. 3 No. 24

2000 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 25 - Environment and Local Government.

Mr. N. Callan (Secretary General, Department of the Environment and Local Government) called and examined.

I remind our visitors that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Notwithstanding the provisions of legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of provisions within Standing Order 149 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such a policy or policies.

Mr. Callan, you are welcome. Will you, please, introduce your officials?

Mr. Callan

I am accompanied by Mr. IanKeating, finance officer, and Mr. Tom Corcoran, assistant secretary and head of the housing division. Assisting us is Mr. John Henry, director and chief executive of the Dublin Transportation Office.

Paragraphs 20 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

20. The Dublin Transportation Office Short Term Action Plan

Introduction

The Dublin Transportation Office (DTO) was established, as a corporate body, under the Local Government Services (Corporate Bodies) Act 1971 to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the Dublin Transportation Initiative strategy and to make recommendations for an implementation programme. The business of the Office is conducted by a Steering Committee which is representative of the land-use and transportation agencies in the Greater Dublin area and has a key role in overseeing the successful implementation of all aspects of the strategy. It does not have statutory powers to enforce delivery of programmes but depends on voluntary arrangements and consensus to pursue its mandate.

In September 1998, the DTO published a transportation review which concluded that, unless the imbalance between the use of private motor cars and alternative modes of transport Principally bus, train and cycling in Dublin was addressed by immediate, short-term measures, the Greater Dublin area would experience a deterioration of travel conditions into the future.

The DTO estimated this imbalance to be of the order of 49,000 trips in the Greater Dublin Area, including 12,000 city centre trips, and set the target to transfer a significant proportion of this imbalance to alternative modes of transport.

In conjunction with this transportation review, and in association with the relevant agencies the DTO prepared a Short-Term Action Plan 1998-2000 ("the Plan") with the objective of addressing the deteriorating situation.

The Plan set out a series of co-ordinated actions required from several public sector agencies. The DTO's Steering Committee, in consultation with these agencies, set certain targets and set up an Action Plan Monitoring Committee ("the Monitoring Committee"), to monitor its implementation.

The role of co-ordinating/monitoring progress under the Plan vests in the DTO while direct responsibility for delivery of particular elements in the Plan vests in the various agencies - in particular, local authorities in the Dublin region and companies in the CIE group.

The Department of the Environment and Local Government ("Environment") provides the majority of traffic management funding for the DTO and 50% of its general administration budget The balance of DTO administrative funding is provided by CIÉ and the local authorities (the four Dublin authorities - Dublin Corporation, South Dublin, Dún Laoghaire - Rathdown and Fingal County Councils and Kildare, Meath and Wicklow County Councils). Local Authorities also contribute funds to traffic management in their own right.

The Plan proposed action in the following areas

Bus

Suburban Rail

Cycling

Parking

Traffic Management

A campaign of Public Information was also envisaged.

Although the Plan was launched in September 1998, the Monitoring Committee was not established until January 1999.

The primary costs of the Plan were borne on Voted and European Union (EU) funds. Disbursements in the period 1998 to May 2001 were sourced as shown in Table 1.

Table 1 Disbursements 1998 to May 2001

£m

Environment and Local Government Vote via DTO £6.1m spent by DTO on Action Plan Projects prior to 1998

49.6

Environment and Local Government Vote via Local Authorities

6.8

Public Enterprise Vote

38.8

EU (Operational Programme for Transport 1994-1999)

36.2

CIE Group

3.1

Total

134.5

Certain other costs were met by the CIE Group and the four Dublin local authorities from internal sources.

Objectives and Scope of Audit

The objectives of the examination were to assess the success of the Plan in terms of the targets set by the DTO, particularly the objective of transferring a significant proportion of the excess of 49,000 predicted car trips to alternative modes. The examination included a review of

Target costs to actual costs

Target impacts to actual impacts

Target achievement dates realised

The DTO furnished details of the outturn and impact of the Plan. My audit remit does not extend to local authorities or companies in the CIÉ group so reliance was placed on information provided by those implementing agencies to their sponsoring Departments. Meetings were held with the sponsoring Departments to clarify information received and to assess the quality of this information. The drawdown and payments procedures for Environment and Public Enterprise were also examined.

Audit Findings

Primary Objective of the Plan

The primary objective of the Plan was to effect a transfer of some 37,000 predicted person-trips by car to alternative modes to address the imbalance of peak hour trips which had been identified by the DTO. Accordingly, the impact targets under the Plan were set in terms of achieving shifts from car journeys to the alternative modes of transport.

A key reporting methodology chosen to indicate progress under the Plan for the principal players, Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann, was to measure the increase in passenger trips per peak hour per day arising from measures taken under the Plan. Both companies have reported increases in capacity and the number of public transport trips being undertaken but the extent to which this increase is attributable to a switch from private car usage is difficult to establish.

The DTO used traffic modelling techniques to establish the imbalance between private car usage and the alternatives. In order to effectively evaluate the achievement of the Plan's objectives it would be useful if the impact made by the various measures undertaken could be factored into the model, including those achieved by CIE companies. However, the DTO states that while the overall target was established using the model the small scale impacts of the individual elements of the Plan cannot be modelled with sufficient precision to allow it to be used as a monitoring tool.

In the circumstances, it is not possible to determine the extent to which the primary objective of the Plan has been achieved.

The Action Plan Monitoring Committee

The Monitoring Committee comprises representatives of the major participants in the implementation and monitoring of the Plan. These are

Dublin Transportation Office

Department of the Environment and Local Government

Department of Public Enterprise

Córas Iompair Éireann

South Dublin County Council

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown CountyCouncil

Fingal County Council

Dublin Corporation

The Monitoring Committee held nine meetings in 1999 and four in 2000. Since June 2000 any matters relating to the Plan were considered by the DTO Steering Committee which subsumed the Monitoring Committee because of the importance it attached to delivery of the Plan.

Bus Project

The key objective of the Bus Project, to reduce the imbalance in passenger trips in favour of alternative modes of transport of 21,600 was to be achieved by increasing the capacity of the bus service in the Greater Dublin area during the morning and evening peak travel times. This was to be effected principally through the combined efforts of Dublin Bus and local authorities in

The implementation of 12 Quality Bus Corridors (QBCs) (estimated impact 3,500)

A scrapping, replacement and purchase policy which would involve the addition of 270 new buses to the fleet (combined estimated impact 11,900)

Sub-contracting school bus services to the private sector that would free up 60 buses for the morning peak (estimated impact 4,200)

Connect radial routes (estimated impact 2,000)

All of these measures were to be completed by the end of 2000.

The principal costs forecast for QBC implementation (£15.5m from DTO) and the capital cost for 150 new vehicles (£27.5m from Public Enterprise) were to be met from the Exchequer. CIE was to absorb the cost of scrapping and replacing an additional 120 buses within its own resources. It also undertook to connect radial routes in Dublin. An additional £9m per annum was to be provided by Public Enterprise towards the operational costs of the new buses. Public Enterprise provided additional funding of £4m in 1999 to meet the increased operating costs falling on Dublin Bus in that year and has increased its annual subvention in 2000 and 2001 to take account of ongoing additional operating costs associated with the Plan.

Table 2 shows the Outcome versus Targets for the two Bus Measures involving direct Exchequer funding.

Table 2 Bus Measures 1998-2000

Actions

Target

Outcome

Install 12 QBCs

Cost

£15.5m

£32.1m (includes cycle-lanes) 1

Timing

By End 2000

3 QBCs operating end 2000

Impact

3,500

Not fully assessed

150 new buses 2

Cost

Capital £27.5m plus £9m p.a.

£27m plus unquantified additional operating costs

Timing

By End 2000

Within Target

Impact

9,450

Not fully assessed

1 The four local authorities involved in creating 12 QBCs have reported this expenditure to the DTO as at May 2001. However, some proportion of this amount is attributable to the provision of cycle-lanes on the QBCs. The DTO has not separately identified these costs.

2 The balance (120) of the original target of 270 buses to be purchased were acquired by Dublin Bus from its own resources

Implementation of QBCs

By the end of the Plan period, 3 of the anticipated 12 QBCs had been launched. These were Lucan, Malahide and Stillorgan. Progress on the other QBCs was as follows

North Clondalkin: Opened in March 2001.

Swords: One segment Whitehall to City Centre was opened in April 2001.

Tallaght: Opened in April 2001.

Rathfarnham: Opened in March 2001.

Finglas: Opened in March 2001

Blanchardstown: Opened in September 2001.

The following QBCs are not yet operational

Ballymun

South Clondalkin

Orbital

Impact Indicators

DTO report that a Dublin Bus survey of those using the Stillorgan QBC after its launch indicated that 60% were previous car users. Dublin Bus intend to undertake similar surveys on more recently launched QBCs.

Dublin Bus has compiled weekly passenger figures on each QBC from its ticketing data, to compare patronage before and after QBC launch. However, the figures combine the effects of the new infrastructure with the revised schedules, new buses and increased frequency. Accordingly, while each QBC has recorded increased performance, it is difficult to disaggregate the contribution from each of the initiatives taken.

School Bus Sub-Contracting

After the Plan had commenced, CIE reported to the Committee that it would not be possible to achieve the Short Term Action Plan target for the bus sub-contracting measure. This was due to the fact that the original target did not take into account the need to scrap very old buses that had previously been used for schools services. While there was a moderate net gain in increased capacity from this measure, the target of 4,200 passenger trips set out in the Plan will not be met. DTO state that the condition of buses used for school services was not communicated to it when the target for this measure was agreed.

Radial Routes

This measure comprises the implementation by Dublin Bus of cross-city and Express routes into their timetables. At the end of 2000 more than 20 of these were introduced. Completion of the measure is delayed because QBCs have not been linked in the city centre, the O'Connell Street Millennium project which includes dedicating roadspace to public transport has been delayed and certain traffic calming measures to give priority to buses is behind schedule.

Suburban Rail (including DART) Project

The primary objective of the suburban rail project was to maximise the capacity of the rail network by the provision of additional rolling stock and line improvements to reduce the imbalance by 11,300. The principal features of the work included

Upgrading the Maynooth to Clonsilla rail line

Purchase of 20 diesel rail-cars for use on the Maynooth suburban route

Purchase of 8 two-car sets of rolling stock for DART

Lengthening of DART and other suburban stations' platforms to accommodate the operation of 8 car train sets

Iarnród Éireann was responsible for all measures in this aspect of the Plan. A delivery timetable ranging from end 1999 (platform lengthening) to end 2000 (upgrading Maynooth-Clonsilla line) was forecast. The capital cost of the measures was estimated at £65.5m, with an additional Public Service Contract payment to CIE amounting to £5m per annum (payable from Vote funds). Public Enterprise has confirmed that an increased subvention has been made available to Iarnród Éireann to cover additional operating costs arising under the Plan.

Table 3 outlines the measures to be taken and the outcomes for Suburban Rail.

Table 3 Suburban Rail Measures 1998-2000

Action

Target

Outcomes 1

Upgrade Maynooth-Clonsilla line

Cost

£16.5m

£14m

Timing

End 2000

Substantially Completed

Impact

1,300

Additional service implemented in August 2001

Purchase 20 diesel rail cars

Cost

£20m

£21.5m (current cost)

Timing

Mid 2000

Substantially Completed

Impact

3,000

Additional service implemented in August 2001

Purchase 8 two-car sets for DART

Cost

£24m

£17.9m

Timing

Mid 2000

Completed by end 2000

Impact

7,000

Target reduced

Lengthen rail station platforms

Cost

£5m

£5m

Timing

End 1999

All Platforms not yet completed July 2001

Impact

None specified

Measure not effective yet

1 The figures reported were provided by the CIE group to Public Enterprise.

Maynooth Suburban Line

The key objective was to double the track between Maynooth and Clonsilla and incorporate associated signalling works. The expenditure profile was expected to be £5m in 1999, £6.5m in 2000 and £5m in 2001. CIE reported in March 2001 that the doubling of the track had been completed. Major signalling commissioning had also been completed in December 2000 which would facilitate the upgraded service. However, the automation of a number of level crossings remained to be carried out.

Purchase of Diesel stock

Industrial relations difficulties in Iarnród Éireann delayed the deployment of the 20 new diesel rail cars for the Maynooth suburban line. A revised schedule for the line involving the new rail cars went into operation in August 2001.

Purchase of DART stock

In February 2000, Iarnród Éireann indicated to the monitoring committee that the estimated impact of the DART measures was overstated and should be reduced from 7,000 to 4,000. Although 8 two-car units were delivered in 2000, the last of these was not brought into service until June 2001.

In June 2000, Iarnród Éireann informed DTO that separate impact indicators would be required for the diesel and DART rail-car additions of the Plan. These have not yet been compiled.

Platform Lengthening

The plan for platform lengthening was to bring all outer-suburban platforms and DART platforms up to a standard 174 metres to facilitate the operation of longer train-sets. A total of £2m was planned for 1999, with a further £3m in 2000. The work was to be completed in time to accommodate the arrival of the additional rolling stock and the consequential longer trains.

In March 2001, CIE stated that 3 remaining stations, Drumcondra, Raheny and Lansdowne Road, would be completed by October 2001. However, due to planning application and property issues arising with Tara Street and Blackrock, no dates were available for these stations.

Cycling Project

The main elements of the cycling project were targeted at reducing the transport imbalance by 4,000 passenger trips per peak hour per day. The measures were

To provide 100 kilometres of cycle track in addition to the approximately 60 kilometres already in place, to substantially complete the agreed Dublin Transportation Initiative Cycle Route Network of 360 kilometres of track.

To provide a minimum of 1,000 additional cycle parking spaces and encourage the provision of shower/changing facilities at the workplace

The local authorities had primary responsibility for implementing these measures. The cost was estimated at £15.5m.

The provision of the length of cycle track included in the Plan was a general objective and did not specify which parts of the DTO cycle network were to be completed. By end April 2001, some 320 kilometres of track had been completed, 230 kilometres of which were part of the original network. The cost of specific cycle tracks to end April 2001 was £9m. The cost of cycle tracks provided as part of the QBC network has not been separately identified.

£211,000 of the £500,000 provided in the Plan has been drawn down by local authorities for the provision of additional cycle parking spaces. The DTO states that Dublin Corporation alone has installed in excess of 2,000 such spaces under the Plan with the total number of spaces within the region now exceeding 2,500.

Parking Project

Under this aspect of the Plan, the key elements, if effective, were to reduce the transport imbalance by 500. They were as follows

To implement a Park and Ride facility at Finglas (target cost £1m plus an annual subvention of £0.5m)

To further develop Park and Ride facilities adjacent to rail stations (target cost £1m)

To implement measures which would restrict the availability of private non-residential parking

While Dublin Corporation was to be responsible for the Finglas Park and Ride project, and CIE for augmenting Park and Ride elsewhere, Environment, Finance and local authorities were charged with implementing fiscal and other changes to bring about shifts in private parking practice.

Implementation of Park and Ride

In 1999, the DTO revised its original estimated impact from this measure from 500 to 1,000. However, the Finglas Park and Ride facility has not yet commenced. The absence of this facility leaves a large deficit in the impact of this project.

The measure to develop Park and Ride facilities at rail stations has proceeded with the DTO paying £2.37m towards the costs, compared to a planned £1m. Property costs incurred by CIE and local authorities are not included in this figure.

Other Measures specified in the Plan for the Parking Project

Reducing Private Non-Residential Parking

The Plan proposed the development of fiscal measures aimed at reducing the level of private non-residential parking in the city centre by 5% per annum. There have been no significant developments in this area that would lead to achievement of the desired outcome.

Reduction of Parking Supply for New Developments

It was the intention to amend the parking standards attaching to planning permissions to reduce the amount of parking available to office and other developments along quality public transport corridors and in urban areas undergoing re-generation but which are well served by public transport. The DTO states that these changes are being progressed but that no effective changes have yet takenplace.

Encouraging a Change of Use in Private Parking

There have been no significant actions taken to date on this measure other than the removal of 3,000 free city centre spaces, estimated to reduce peak hour car trips by 500.

Ending Tax Incentives for Multi-Storey Car Parks

Tax incentives for Multi-Storey Car Parks ended in 1999.

Traffic Management Measures

The primary purpose of the Traffic Management Project was to create the appropriate traffic environment for implementation and enforcement of the other Action Plan projects. These measures were intended to support public transport, cyclists and pedestrians, while improving traffic flows for all modes.

There were four aspects to the traffic management measures

Enforcement

Road Space Activities

Orbital Routes

Traffic Control

The DTO did not set impact targets for any of the measures in the Traffic Management area of the Plan.

Key elements of the Enforcement sub-measure were the introduction of on-the-spot fines, a penalty points system and camera surveillance of traffic designed to bring about changes in driving behaviour. There was also a plan to run Operation Freeflow, a co-ordinated approach to traffic management, on an all year round basis. There have been delays in bringing all these measures to fruition.

While Operation Freeflow could not be operated on a year round basis because it is difficult to justify the on-going deployment of 150 additional Gardaí, a scaled down enforcement measure - Operation Clearway - is in operation which the DTO claims is successful.

For Road Space Activities, a plan to complete the Strategic Routes Analysis by the end of 2000 was successful. However, a simultaneous plan to standardise the approach to road works carried out by public utilities and the local authorities, has been delayed.

The DTO, at the request of Department of the Environment and Local Government and Public Enterprise, formed a Utilities and Statutory Bodies Work Group in April 2001, to standardise the approach to roadworks through agreement between the industry players and the local authorities. Agreed codes of practice are expected on various issues before the end of 2001, based on work already begun by the local authorities in 2000.

The provision of Orbital Routes around Dublin City Centre was a key element of the strategy relating to Traffic Management. The so-called Canal Orbital Route and the Inner City Orbital Route have not been completed. Of a budget of £30 m in Exchequer funding provided for this sub-measure £6.8m has been spent. The lack of progress on this measure is attributed by DTO to the delays on Cork Street, North King Street and Macken Street which were largely procedural, including hearing appeals and oral hearings under the planning process. Macken Street Bridge is still delayed, but both Cork Street and North King Street/Blackhall Place Bridge are well under way.

Associated work in the city centre has proceeded without the completed Orbital schemes, with £2.8m in grants (excluding co-funds) between 1998 and 2000.

A total of £3.1 m in Exchequer funding has been spent in respect of various measures aimed at Traffic Control. These include

Traffic Counting measures

Closed-Circuit Television installation

Extension of Area Wide Traffic Control Systems

Conclusions

The overarching objective of the Plan was to correct the imbalance in commuting patterns, and to do this to a specified degree. However, the DTO did not focus on the effect of the actions in the Plan and there were no significant re-evaluations of the inputs to the Plan in the course of its implementation.

The DTO used computer modelling techniques in drawing up the Plan and the target impacts for correcting the transport imbalance. Consideration should have been given to the use of such techniques in the course of the Plan to determine whether and to what extent target impacts were being achieved.

While public transport capacity was increased by action taken under the Plan, the increases fell short of the targets set.

It is difficult to predict at this stage if the overall Plan will come within budget but it is likely that there will be some overruns.

There is evidence to suggest that elements of the Plan weren't soundly based e.g.

The planned impact of sub-contracting school bus services was not based on the factual position

Platform lengthening proposals did not take account of planning and property difficulties

The risk of industrial relations problems wasn't factored into the Plan

Many key measures have not been completed within the planned timetable e.g.

Only 10% of budget expended on orbital routes

Some complementary measures have not been undertaken e.g.

Reducing parking supply for new developments

Co-ordination of different elements of the Plan and their interaction have not been well managed

Observations from the Dublin Transportation Office

The DTO is currently preparing a report on a review of the Plan and intends publishing it in the near future.

The underlying objectives of the Plan were to highlight the growing traffic problem in Dublin, to get Government support for immediate action and to initiate a co-ordinated response from the agencies involved.

In this regard, the Plan was successful in that it did achieve a prompt response and set in motion a renewed effort to solve Dublin's traffic problems. The fact that some of the targets were not achieved, within the short time scale of the Plan, is secondary to the fact that resources were mobilised and focused to address a growing problem.

The Plan also alerted the authorities to the need for more radical thinking about the future of transport in the Dublin area and prepared some of the ground for the measures that followed in the National Development Plan and DTO Strategy A Platform for Change.

The achievement of targets set out in the Plan should be viewed against the backdrop of the unexpected economic growth experienced since 1993. The emphasis in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report placed on targets is more than that intended when the targets were agreed in the first place. The purpose of the targets was to establish the scale of the actions required and to stimulate a sense of urgency in addressing the growing traffic problem. The delivery of the target figures would only make a small contribution to the solution of the ever-growing problem and were intended to be the first steps in a process of ongoing development and updating of transportation policy for Dublin.

The short-term duration of the Plan and the need for immediate action eliminated from consideration projects that required lengthy lead times. The focus was therefore, mainly, on increasing existing public transport capacity.

The concept of measuring the Action Plan's success by means of modal shift is inappropriate in the context of constantly changing trip patterns, and within a period of unprecedented economic growth and consequential trip demand growth. The issue at the heart of the Action Plan is "provision of additional trip capacity" within the transportation systems.

The figures agreed for the main bus and rail aspects of the plan were targets to be aimed at rather than precise figures to be achieved. In retrospect a more convenient indicator would have been the actual physical capacity increases. The use of the DTO strategic transportation model would not be appropriate for the purposes set out.

DTO considers that while the targets were set to be achieved by end 2000 significant parts of those targets have been completed in early 2001. By April 2001 71% of targets had been achieved.

Observations of the Department of the Environment and Local Government

A dedicated Quality Bus Network Team with full responsibility for delivery of the quality bus network (including QBCs) and led by Dublin Corporation on behalf of the Dublin local authorities is being put in place. The team's costs will be funded by DTO and the projects will be assigned, funded and approved by DTO. This approach will facilitate a pooling of skills and experience, will facilitate consistency of appraisal and design, will attract professional staff and should ensure smoother delivery of the ongoing bus programme.

A consultation paper on new infrastructural arrangements for Land Use and Transport Planning for the Greater Dublin Area proposes a new body with enforcement powers to

Prepare and review an integrated long-term land use transport strategy

Adopt a medium term transport implementation plan and a short-term action plan

Monitor implementation of the various strategies, programmes and plans using appropriate performance indicators

Use its enforcement powers to ensure implementation agencies act in a way consistent with the strategy and delivery on the programmes and action plan targets.

A cross-departmental team has been established to progress the legislation required to establish the proposed new Authority.

The paper identifies the factors which give rise to an inadequate record of delivery in certain areas and proposes strengthening institutional arrangements.

Faced with the twin problems of increasing growth in traffic and resulting congestion, the fundamental thrust of the DTI strategy since its inception has been to secure a major transfer of trips from private transport to public transport and other more environmentally acceptable modes. The various policy documents published by DTO since its establishment (including Short Term Action Plan) have been consistent in trying to advance this agenda.

To achieve this result, it is necessary to expand public transport capacity very significantly, together with other non-car options, so that the necessary capacity is available. It is recognised, however, that side by side with transport infrastructure improvements, it is necessary also to adopt demand management measures which will ensure that the modal transfer is actually achieved. These measures are to be the subject of a further study with a view to a coherent package of measures being chosen and implemented. Pending the full implementation of the DTO strategy, including the demand management elements, there will not necessarily be a full take-up of the additional public and other transport facilities being provided. This is inevitable and is not, as such, an argument for not providing such facilities. There is simply no alternative that is capable of delivering the desired results in terms of modal shift.

Paragraph 21 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

21. Review of Local Government Audit Reports

The Local Government Audit (LGA) service is responsible for the audit of the accounts of all Local Authorities. The LGA reports are submitted to the Department of the Environment and Local Government and to the Local Authorities and form part of the controls exercised by the Department in ensuring that procedures for the spending of public moneys are satisfactory. In 2000, Local Authorities received £812m from the Vote and an additional £640m from the Local Government Fund. Copies of the audit reports are made available to me in my capacity as auditor of the Department.

I have reviewed the LGA reports for 1999 and I noted the following critical references to issues which were common to many local authorities

£105m in capital deficits were highlighted, with about £30m of this amount specifically referred to as "funded" but with the balance of £75m either classified as "unfunded" or otherwise bearing no indication as to how the deficits were to be cleared

Adverse Revenue Balances in the 32 reports examined amounted to over £25m

Lack of progress in implementing recommendations arising from reports by the Department's Value for Money Audit Unit

Inadequacies in the structure or functions of Internal Audit in local authorities continue to feature in many LGA reports

16 of 32 Prompt Payment reports were qualified by the auditor, principally on the basis that interest due had not been paid by the local authority

Public and employer liability claims pending against six local authorities. The total amount involved was estimated at over £49m.

The Local Government Equalisation Fund

In my report on the Local Government Equalisation Fund A fund established under Section 4 of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act, 1997 accounts for the year 1998, I stated that I relied on the work of the LGAs for assurance that proper procedures for assessment, collection and bringing to account of motor tax revenues are being operated by the local authorities. In the course of that audit, it came to my attention that the LGA with responsibility for auditing the motor tax account of Carlow County Council was not in a position to certify the account for 1998 due to the conditions under which the financial records of the Council had been stored.

The LGA signed his audit report on 14 December 2000, but made it clear that he did not receive all the information and explanations that he considered necessary for the purpose of his audit. In correspondence with the Department in relation to the issue, the Department informed me that, following on from the auditor's report and a visit by a departmental official to the Council's offices, a dedicated room has been assigned by the Council for the storage of motor tax files. In addition, a number of alterations/ improvements had been made in the manner in which the accounts were retained.

The Department also informed me that all work on the new facility was expected to be completed in June 2001, at which stage all of the 1999 motor tax batches would be available for re-inspection.

The Local Government Fund

I audit the accounts of the Local Government Fund. The Local Government Act, 1999 established this Fund and the various assets and liabilities of the Local Government Equalisation Fund, including cash balances, were transferred to the Local Government Fund with effect from 1 January 1999. The Department sent the first draft accounts of the Local Government Fund, for the year ending 31 December 1999, to me for audit on 29 June 2001.

Mr. Glavey

Paragraph 20 deals with the short-term action plan of the Dublin Transportation Office. In his 1999 report the Comptroller and Auditor General stated he was refining his approach to audit by subjecting certain areas of activity to targeted examination and reporting. Paragraph 20 of the annual report for 2000 gives the results of such a targeted examination. It reports on the successes and some shortcomings of the Dublin Transportation Office in implementing its short-term action plan for the years 1998 to 2000. The aim of the plan was to address the deterioration in travel conditions in the Dublin area. It is important to stress at the outset that what were examined were the outcomes under a short-term plan, and these should be viewed in the context of the Dublin transport initiative strategy. Having said that, it is hoped that the results of our examination will facilitate debate on what is obviously a matter of great and growing concern to those who travel in theDublin area.

The primary objective of the action plan was to effect a significant shift away from the use of private cars towards alternative modes of transport in Dublin. Measures to bring this about under the plan may be grouped conveniently under two headings. First, there were actions to increase the capacity and ease of use of transport such as buses, the DART, other rail services and bicycles. Second, there were measures to discourage the use of private cars, such as changes in policy in relation to parking and measures relating to traffic management.

The paragraph examines, topic by topic, the key elements of the plan, drawing attention to what has been achieved and what remains to be done. For example, it sets out which quality bus corridors were operating on target, or thereabouts, and which had yet to come on stream when our report was published. It does the same for planned improvements in the carrying capacity of the DART and other rail services. Our examination concludes that, while much has been achieved, there is no room for complacency and that there are lessons to be learnt for the future.

It appears there may be bottlenecks due, for example, to planning and property difficulties associated with lengthening some DART platforms. These may have a serious impact in bringing on stream the planned additional DART capacity. On a more general note, the examination found scope for greater co-ordination in the implementation of the different elements of the plan and the need to develop measures to determine whether or not particular impacts were being achieved.

The Dublin Transport Office noted in their comments that the plan was successful to the extent that it set in motion a renewed effort to solve Dublin's traffic problems. It also notes that by April 2001, 71% of the targets had been achieved. The Department makes the point that, faced with the twin problems of increasing growth in traffic and resulting congestion, the fundamental thrust of the Dublin transport initiative strategy since its inception has been to secure a major transfer of trips from private transport to public and other environmentally acceptable modes of transport.

One of the outstanding issues is whether or not the undoubted increase in capacity that has occurred has, in fact, been matched by a corresponding move away from private motor usage.

I thank Mr. Glavey. As Mr. Callan submitted an opening statement, which we have had the chance to assess, we will go straight to questions.

I welcome Mr. Callan. This is our first meeting and I look forward to meeting him on many more occasions. I know Mr. Henry very well and he is very welcome.

The problem with traffic in Dublin is substantial. What efforts are now in train to address it and what success is expected in terms of solving the traffic problem in Dublin in the short to medium term?

Mr. Callan

I thank the Deputy for those good wishes, which I would like to reciprocate by co-operating fully with this committee. The DTO, as I explained, is a corporate body in its own right. It embraces agencies and bodies other than the Department of the Environment and Local Government, although I accept that my Department is the prime sponsor of the DTO and its prime financier in relation to moneys required to support traffic management and bus priority measures.

There are, however, many other areas of expenditure, some belonging to other Votes, embraced by the DTO short-term action plan. This is purely by way of clarification. In terms of the Deputy's broader question, urban transportation is a challenging issue for municipal administrations throughout the developed world, which puts matters in perspective. As we speak, there are more cities struggling with problems of congestion, pollution, excessive use of private transport etc. than are succeeding in the application of completely satisfactory solutions. The OECD has much interesting analysis of this phenomenon. It is commonplace throughout the developed world that the use of the private car seems to be increasing apace, while public transport is struggling to maintain its status.

Difficulties of public transport services in terms of customer responsiveness are also commonplace in many cities around the developed world. Having said that - Mr. Henry will respond in more detail in a moment - we have tried in Dublin since the late 1980s to establish a process of transport and land use planning designed to provide an integrated response to the undoubtedly challenging and severe problems facing us. That strategy was made concrete in the Dublin Transportation Initiative, published in 1994 and 1995, and the Dublin Transportation Office itself grew from that process. The success or otherwise of the short-term action plan has been analysed by the Comptroller and Auditor General and we and the DTO have made some comments in response. Time has not been standing still since the formulation of the DTO Short-term Action Plan, 1998-2000. Since then, the DTO has published material relating to the national development plan entitled "Dublin Transportation Blueprint" and "A Platform for Change", which is a medium to long-term strategy to deal with the issues of which the Deputy spoke.

The Government has decided that new directions must be taken in face of the undoubted problems. It has decided that the DTO should be subsumed into a wider and more powerful new body mandated to deal with strategic transport and land-use planning for the greater Dublin area, and that at operational level - partly in response to something the C&AG representative touched on just now - the programmes now being developed for bus priority measures would be better implemented by a team directly focused on this purpose and co-ordinated by Dublin Corporation. Both of these organisational initiatives are being progressed.

With the permission of the Chairman, I invite John Henry to respond to some of these issues in more detail, and to respond to Deputy Ardagh.

I would very much appreciate if Mr. Henry qualified his position.

I thank the Chairman and Deputy Ardagh. The Deputy is interested in what we are doing in terms of short-term measures to try to solve or reduce the problem.

According to a newspaper report it took less than ten minutes to go on a five kilometre ride in a car in Singapore and it took more than 50 minutes to travel the same distance in Dublin.

There is a direct relationship between economic prosperity and car ownership and usage. If one goes back 20 years in Ireland, we had low car usage and did not have the same traffic problems as today. We were faced with a problem so big that I do not think any city could cope with trying to catch up in a situation where a public transport system was not in place. That goes back maybe 50 years, with a lack of investment in public transport over all those years and a lack of recognition that a city needs a very good public transport system if it is to survive into the long-term future, certainly through periods of economic growth like that. We did not have that buffer of a good public transport system to cope with the sudden impact of economic growth. With increased employment and a reduction in unemployment, the number going to work in the morning increased dramatically and the only real mode they had to travel was by car. That compounded the problems. The lack of a public transport network and a growing number travelling to work combined to give us a serious problem that was very difficult to deal with.

Our primary mandate is to do long-term strategic planning. When we were set up in 1995-96 our first objective was to do the first major review of the original DTI strategy. The idea was to roll that strategy forward every five years and we have started that process. Having done a major survey in 1997, we very quickly realised that things had changed very dramatically in the short period since 1991. That is what prompted us effectively to put aside this long-term review at that stage and produce our short-term action plan as an immediate response to something that we realised was happening more quickly than anyone had realised. I do not think it had entered the public mind or dawned on any of the agencies that this dramatic change was happening at the rate it was.

We produced this plan as a quick response to try to motivate all the agencies to focus on the fact that something was happening very quickly and needed a quick response. We have been quite successful in stimulating the agencies to get on and do the projects required. We set very ambitious targets because I felt, if we set our targets too low, it might be too easy to achieve them. We wanted to get the maximum out of the agencies involved. We really pushed all the agencies involved hard to try to deliver a little beyond what they could expect to achieve. To come up with nearly 80% of that delivered in the period of the plan with a little slippage and overrun was not a bad exercise as a starting action of a small office.

The more important thing which has come in recent years is that, when we had finished that, we then went back to the main review, our main mandate, and produced Platform for Change, of which I think members are all aware. This is something that is so important for Dublin that I am not too sure that everybody yet even realises it. This has the potential to transform Dublin. It is the biggest plan of its kind that has ever been devised for Dublin and I take some satisfaction from the fact that we devised it in-house. We did not have any external experts to assist us. We had the skills. It is great to be able to say that Ireland and Dublin now have the sort of skills needed to do this sort of fairly technical work. We have established a very good team to do it. This is a big plan which can solve our problems. If everything in it and all the policies were implemented - some are not very attractive politically - this could solve the problems of Dublin and get a city that is better or as good as any in the world.

People refer to a city as being lovely and that it could be used as a model. If one goes there as a tourist and travels by public transport, one will certainly have that view. If one lived in that city and travelled by car, one would not have that view. I was in Barcelona last week and it has a fabulous metro system. We were taken around in a bus and it took us something like 45 minutes to travel probably two miles. Their congestion is as bad as ours, if not worse. Built into this plan is a way of dealing with that congestion problem. It is not only a public transport network which we say has to be put in place, but also what we call the demand management side. That is the other part of the equation which gives that final little nudge to people to make the right choice of taking public transport instead of taking the car. When those mechanisms are in place the problem could be solved if we have the courage to do it. We have set all that out.

That is to give members a little bit of background. We know where we are going. We have the major plan which the Government has adopted. We now have to implement it.

Will you synopsise or summarise the main actions which must be taken to control traffic?

I will give the short-term things we have to do because I think they are important. We have a great asset in our existing railway system. I am talking about within the Dublin area: the northern line, the southern line, theMaynooth line and the Kildare line. There are four railway tracks and we have never really exploited them fully.

Let us take something very simple. The platforms at the moment can handle six car trains. If the length of the platforms is expanded to eight car size and we get the rolling stock to add to the trains, there will be a 30% increase on those networks immediately. The thing about lengthening platforms is that one does not have to go through any planning inquiry. There is nothing to stop it being done. It is within the control of CIE to do it and something that can be done very quickly.

We did not do all the platform lengthening in our short-term action plan simply because we have not yet got the rolling stock to run eight car trains. They are coming and the platforms will be lengthened by the time they are available. By the spring of next year we will be running all six car trains in the morning peak hours. That is an improvement.

The next step we could take on the railways is, if we improve the signalling on those suburban corridors, we will get about another 30% increase. We have to put in additional power supplies to accommodate those increases, but all these projects are within the permanent way. There is maybe a little land acquisition required in one or two places for the platform lengthening, but all those projects are within the permanent way. We do not have any real planning issues involved. What we need is investment in rolling stock, signalling, power supplies and the——

What is the timeframe in providing for this?

It could be done within three years.

You said you were formed in 1995. The primary objective in your formation was to switch people from cars to alternative modes of transport, in other words, trains, cycling and even walking.

That is right.

Six years down the road, to what degree do you say or have you anything to prove your objectives were achieved? Everyone knows the city is choking and that there is gridlock. You said the pace of activity took us all by surprise. Maybe it did, but it appears to have taken you by surprise. I find it remarkable that, in the five or six years of the formative role you have had in your organisation, the lengthening of platforms for the future was not thought of, given that it is such a simple concept.

In what quantifiable way can you assess that you have succeeded in getting people to switch from cars to alternative forms of transport, because I am sure for a person even to dream of cycling in Dublin, given the two recent fatal accidents, must be a hazard and nightmare? Do you have a means to quantify this? The Comptroller and Auditor General was critical that you did not have anything to support your claims that you had achieved your objectives in the past five to six years.

I would not agree with your final remark, but will take the points you raised. In relation to the increase in the size of platforms and why we have not done them before now during the five year period, there was no need to lengthen them at that stage because we did not have enough rolling stock in place to use them. Iarnród Éireann was running four car trains. It is now trying to get them up to six car trains. Some 26 cars have been delivered over the course of the short-term action plan. Another 12 arrived about a week ago. They are being commissioned at the moment. It takes about three or four months to commission them. By early spring, it will be possible to run six car trains. We are still not at the eight car train size. We have to get another tranche of rolling stock before we can get up to eight car trains. The lack of eight car platforms is not inhibiting delivery of any of the service at this stage. The capacity is being added on by way of additional rolling stock up to the limits of what it can handle now. The next step will be to get more rolling stock and then make sure the platforms are lengthened.

I have asked when carriages will be delivered and platforms lengthened to accommodate existing demand and you say it will take two years to deliver extra rolling stock and it was not a priority before this to lengthen platforms. What is the timeframe for the delivery of eight car trains and the lengthening of platforms?

We do not control the timeframe, but say it can be done within the next three years. There is about a two year delivery on rolling stock.

It can be done, but will it be done? That is the important question if you are to achieve the objectives in your document.

We are not implementing agencies. The money does not come through our office. We set out policies for Government which we feel should be adopted by the Government. We have made the case to Government——

Are you not the catalyst?

Yes. We put together the plans and, we hope, show the way. The Government has accepted that. The funding has to come through the agencies to deliver the elements of the plan. We produced another, short-term action plan arising from the platform for change which is being considered by the Government at the moment. We have done the best we can and we have set out priorities for Government as to what should be implemented first and what gives the best value return for money. That is as far as we can go with it. The Government then begins to put the funds in place and we will monitor the agencies delivering that, trying our best to keep them moving on the projects. However, we do not have the power to direct the authorities. We request money from Government for the agencies to deliver these projects, but that is as far as we can go with it.

There is no guarantee. What you said in the document will be sustained in reality.

I cannot guarantee——

I know, but the point is that people would love reassurance from the Dublin Transportation Office. After all, a 16 year plan was announced last year in relation to Dublin for the future. That was a £14 billion plan. There seemed to be a commitment regarding that plan being sustained and achieved.

The Government has adopted this as policy.

That is really as far as we can go as an office. If we can get the Government to accept this as policy, then it is up to Government to put the funding in place to the various agencies to deliver what is in there.

You cannot dictate Government policy. All I am saying is that if the willingness is there at policy level, you have said it can be done within a timeframe of up to four years.

Yes, if the funding is put in place.

Of course.

To talk about quantifying the switch from car to public transport, we were looking at projections of what future travel patterns would be and trying to intercept, if you like, people who would otherwise travel by car by making additional capacity available on public transport to enable their transfer. We are not going out and saying: "Did you travel by car last week and are you travelling by bus this week?" It is quite difficult to find out who has made the switch. A study was done on the Stillorgan QBC by Dublin Bus soon after it opened which found that something like 60% of the additional people on the bus had previously driven in by car. Our main objective was not so much to switch from car but to provide additional public transport that was not there.

The DART, as members will know, is at absolute capacity so we need additional rolling stock. They will be filled the minute we get them as well. The key problem that makes people travel by car is that we do not have alternatives available. We must concentrate on making alternatives available. Then one can begin to implement the other measures which will encourage people to shift from cars, such as trying to take control of private, non-residential, downtown parking which is used for commuters. There are lots of other policies which can only come into play when one has an alternative in place. I am often criticised for being anti-car. The key point I make is that we will have to restrain the use of the car but only when we have an alternative available. We cannot restrain the use of the car if there is no alternative. That would be very damaging to the economic life of the city.

All our policies are there and are gradually being implemented. A lot of them have been achieved. When I look back five years to when we were first established, there have been quite significant changes in that time, even in what the director of traffic in Dublin Corporation has done in relation to parking. He has total control of the parking situation in Dublin. Five years ago, if one was a shopper coming into Dublin, one could not get a parking space. People now say to me things are fine and that they are always guaranteed a parking place in Dublin if they are going in to do their shopping because the city is being managed properly in that regard.

Regarding Garda involvement in the enforcement of traffic laws, that has changed dramatically in the last three or four years. We brought in Operation Freeflow in 1996, when we were challenged by the then Government to come up with a plan very quickly. That has been very successful.

People from abroad have asked how we get people to observe the bus lanes. There is an enforcement regime in force which is almost invisible but if one tries to break the rules, one will be caught. The system is there. There have been dramatic changes in this regard.

In terms of dealing with land use issues - land use and transport are linked tightly - we have made a lot of progress with local authorities in moving away from things like minimum parking requirements in new developments. A few years ago all local authorities required a minimum number of parking spaces to be provided. Now we are getting local authorities to turn that around and say a maximum number will be allowed but less can be provided. That is a dramatic change in thinking in terms of controlling supply. One guaranteed point is that if one does not have a parking space at work one cannot use one's car.

Those kinds of changes take time and the planning applications now being granted are beginning to have those policies included in them. It will take years for that to happen because developments do not happen overnight. However, the changes are occurring and developers are coming to talk to us in advance and asking us what they should include in planning applications regarding transport. That is a dramatic change.

Regarding cycling, we have had two tragedies on the quays recently. Cycling had been declining as a mode of transport until 1998 to 1999, when we noticed an increase in cycling again. The route I know best, Ranelagh, only had the odd bicycle a couple of years ago but now there are platoons of cyclists. One may see ten cyclists at a time using that route in both directions. The reason for this increase in cycling is that we are beginning to provide safe facilities for them. Safety is the key for cyclists. Over 320 km. of cycle track have been built since 1997 and it is an extraordinary achievement for any city to get that amount of cycle track in place in such a short time. A lot these things are happening incrementally and gradually. We are not blowing our trumpet about them but people say we are not doing anything. People are beginning to see the effect on the street.

The way forward in the short-term is to exploit our existing resources, which is essential. Many of the rail corridors I mentioned contain land which is not yet developed. If that land develops as car-based, low density, ten to the acre targeted development, then there is no point putting in a public transport infrastructure as it will not be able to support it. That defeats the whole objective of trying to get Dublin into a more compact city. One needs higher density to support public transport and one needs public transport to support higher density. The two have to go further. If we miss the opportunity of exploiting the corridors that already exist by putting in good quality public transport, then land users will go the wrong way and we will never recover. We will end up with a situation in which we will be unable to afford to put in a public transport system.Dublin will continue to sprawl and we will never solve our problem.

It is all set out in here and the principles are sound. The key is that we must develop what I call a walk and ride public transport system; one should be able to come out of one's house, walk to the public transport system, travel on that and walk to one's final destination. One should be able to do that over the full metropolitan area. That is the key objective of this. Added to that are constraint measures at the appropriate time in a final push to get those who have a choice of travelling other than by car onto public transport.

The city manager is looking at the population of Dublin increasing towards the 2 million mark in time. Part of the longer term plan is the underground or metro. How do you see that firming up or is it more aspirational than ever? How do you see the metro in Dublin at this point in time?

The metro is very active and alive. It is not aspirational or a long-term feature. By the end of this year we expect to have expressions of interest from the private sector to develop the metro as a PPP. It is well advanced in its planning, alignments and design. The preliminary design is required to go to PPP by the end of this year. A team is actively pursuing this as its full-time activity. It was put out to the private sector for an initial reaction earlier in the year and it was very successful; we had 35 expressions of interest from an international community in developing the metro. It is being actively pursued. It will probably be one of the larger PPP projects. The initial stages will be from Ranelagh to the airport with a branch to Blanchardstown. That is the first project and planning is taking place. The PPP is being prepared and we should be inviting tenders next year. It will then go through a planning process in order to go to construction. We hope that by 2007-08 the first phase of the metro will be operational. It is not a long-term aspiration. It is being actively pursued at the moment, with a lot of support from Government. The people involved are being pressurised to move quickly.

I would like to ask Mr. Callan about his ambitious plans in regard to the National Development Plan, 2002-06. Given the down turn in the economy, the obvious reduction in the level of budget funding this year and for the next number of years, and the possible reduction in EU funding, does he believe he can pursue successfully at the level forecast these ambitious plans and, if not, where does he see us running into financial difficulties?

Mr. Callan

Just by way of background to that question, it occurred to me to interpolate a comment during some of the exchanges with John Henry. It is a mistaken perception sometimes that the major capital infrastructure programmes for which my Department is responsible, that is, roads, water and housing, were huge beneficiaries under the last CSF from 1994 to 1999. The real level of investment that obtained in regard to national roads in 1993 was not exceeded until 1999. I make this point in an entirely neutral vein. It is a reality that during that CSF the various Governments involved consciously prioritised industrial development and investment in human resources to some extent over investment in infrastructure. That was the reality in those times. I am certain the decisions were conscientious and sensible but that is what those of us involved in the provision of infrastructural services were faced with.

Under the current national development plan we have been put in the driving seat to a much greater extent. I say that with some gratitude. The Chairman indicated a certain impatience that we should be getting on with implementing the various plans and ambitions. That is the dynamic under which the various programmes are being managed and driven in recent years. The national development plan always provided that the roll-out of the various programmes would have to be in accordance with budgetary realities and exigencies. Each year those of us involved in promoting the various programmes must enter into realistic negotiations with the Department of Finance on the possibilities for the ensuing year. We do so against a background of commitment to the full roll-out of the existing targets but we do not do it with a guarantee of any particular quantum of investment in our Vote in the succeeding year.

The level of investment reached in national roads, water and sewerage and housing services is demonstrably on a much higher plateau than obtained under the last CSF. Where necessary, particularly in regard to national roads, there has been a commitment to forward planning so that the momentum of the programme will not fail on account of lack of planning in relation to major projects. In 2000 the NRA will have committed approximately £40 million to forward planning of projects. In the current year that figure is probably in excess of £50 million. In other words, it is not going into bricks and mortar.

You mentioned that the NRA has earmarked spending £660 million in the project and £14.5 million on safety. To what degree will that be sustained this year? As you are aware, there has been a delay recently in regard to the building of national routes, which is still not resolved.

Mr. Callan

As we speak, the year has not been completed.

It is very advanced.

Mr. Callan

It is. I assure you the £660 million will be spent and accounted for in full. It is my belief at this stage that that amount of money will be spent by the NRA.

Is that despite the timeframe?

Mr. Callan

Absolutely. I cannot answer in detail on the NRA road safety budget, but I am sure it will go close to that figure. The £14.5 million for road safety is an indicative figure. I am sure they will give a good account of themselves in that regard.

Of the £14.5 million, £150,000 was allocated for safety and Garda observation platforms. What is meant by Garda observation platforms? Does it relate to a height to observe people speeding?

Mr. Callan

I believe so. I have observed some of these on the new stretch of the Dunleer-Dundalk motorway. They have been in existence in the UK for a number of decades. They are humps, so to speak, at the side of a motorway which are somewhat elevated. They are used only by the Garda whom they allow exercise greater surveillance of traffic. There is some signage associated with them.

It is quite novel. In my area the Garda authorities must not welcome autumn because they are usually behind shrubbery. Suddenly they can be seen in the distance because of falling leaves and so on. Will the Garda observation platforms improve that situation on a national basis as gardaí will no longer have to hide behind hedgerows and trees?

Mr. Callan

I suppose these are operational issues for the Garda. The NRA is co-operating in the enforcement effort.

Can you give us a reassurance that the £660 million will be spent this year?

Mr. Callan

I believe so.

I suggest, Chairman, following such a lengthy reply, that you do not know whether these measures will be put into operation. The question put has not been answered.

Mr. Callan

I am not competent——

No, you are not——

Mr. Callan

I have tried to indicate that the NDP programmes have already been well ramped up, comparatively speaking, compared to the 1994-99 CSF and they are running at a high volume. A considerable effort is being made to build in an adequate provision for advance planning. In terms of speculation as to how my Department or others will fare in the Estimates process, it would be better to leave that matter until the publication of the Estimates, followed by the budget. I do not think I can be drawn on specifics, nor would I be confident enough in that regard at this stage.

I will come back to Mr. Callan on that matter at a later stage. I am now more doubtful than ever that this magic plan can be even remotely attempted in the form in which it is written. I hope I am wrong.

I am concerned at the manner in which the NRA operates. I know it must operate within the rules laid down for it but at one time the Department, through the Minister, was accountable to Dáil Éireann for the actions of local authorities and other agencies. The NRA is now virtually a secret society. For example, no parliamentary questions can be asked about its functions because the Minister no longer has a function with regard to it. We cannot get answers from the NRA which is accountable for the spending of public money. We can bring those questions to this committee but that facility is confined to a small number of Deputies.

The NRA proposes to apply tolls without consultation or agreement with local authorities members. I confess a local interest in this matter because the proposal affects my own town. As far as I am aware, the local authorities in counties Louth and Meath were not consulted about the proposed tolls at Gormanston or at the entrance to the motorway at Drogheda. The same is true of Tipperary and other areas throughout the country.

Members of the Dáil cannot ask questions of the Department and, for the same reason, members of local authorities cannot ask questions either. County managers and other non-elected people have much more say in policy regarding road building and other infrastructural work than the elected representatives of the people. Can Mr. Callan propose a formula for getting around that difficulty, other than bringing the NRA before the Committee of Public Accounts?

Mr. Callan

I will certainly try to be helpful to the Deputy. The NRA is a creature of the Legislature, specifically of the Roads Act, 1993. When one speaks of being able to ask the Department directly about certain local authority programmes but not about the national roads programme, the distinction I would draw is that in relation to water - a very important programme - or indeed housing, the Department openly acknowledges that it is acting as direct supervisor of the local authorities in relation to these programmes. We are approving their various programmes to sign contracts, to draw down loans or whatever. In the case of national roads, the Legislature has placed the NRA between the Minister and the Department and the local authorities in relation to the co-ordination and supervision of that programme. That is why we have the situation about which the Deputy has asked.

I cannot speak directly for the NRA but I would like to be a bit more free than that; I can speak from my knowledge. I was a member of the NRA for a number of years. I know it is conscious of its duties of accountability throughout the length and breadth of the country. It meets regularly with the local authority associations. It goes, as much as is practicable, when asked to a range of public meetings up and down the country to give explanations. It meets with various representative bodies in a way, indeed, which any conscientious public body should do.

In relation to the application of tolls, the situation which the Deputy speaks about derives from changes in legislation adopted quite recently by the Oireachtas, specifically in the Planning and Development Act, 2000, which amended the Roads Act, 1993. These make the NRA solely competent in relation to the application of tolls for national roads. Local authorities have that competence in relation to non-national roads without reference, as there used to be previously, to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. However, there are duties of consultation. In the drawing up of any toll scheme or any set of by-laws for tolls, there are duties of consultation incumbent upon the NRA. It must consult with the local authorities concerned or affected and with the wider public and, where there are any objections, it must hold public inquiries. As I understand it all of this is being done in the Deputy's case and in the case of other national road toll schemes being promoted at present.

I am glad Mr. Callan agrees with my point of view that we are the ham in the sandwich in relation to road building. I accept that there is consultation of non-elected officials of local authorities but I have grave doubts about meetings between local authorities and the NRA, particularly on the progress of motorway building. Can Mr. Callan find out how many such meetings have taken place? I ask him to keep that in mind because I will ask him this question on the next occasion.

The question of waste management is an absolute disaster since the original legislation was enacted.

We will come to that matter presently. Before we leave this Vote, Deputy Durkan wishes to make a contribution.

May I raise the matter of waste management when we discuss the Vote on the Environmental Protection Agency?

You may.

I was amused to hear some of the information regarding transportation and the Dublin Transportation Office. It is about ten years since I first heard of the building of longer platforms to facilitate new rolling stock. These were ten long hard years of broken promises about trains that did not run on time and people who did not get to work on time. I hear daily complaints from my constituents on the western commuter route, some of whom arrive in work an hour and a half late. On a recent occasion, a level crossing gate was not open because the operator could not get transport to get to the gate on time. This must be the original Irish problem which requires an Irish solution. I am bitterly and deeply disappointed by the progress to date. Operations have been far short of aspirations for a long time and no amount of dressing up will change that. The public have nothing but utter contempt for our continuing efforts to gloss over this situation and to persuade them that things are not as bad as they appear. People have dissipated their energies by complaining. My parliamentary questions usually receive the same reply as Deputy Bell's - that the Minister has no responsibility in the matter. If I then table another parliamentary question and do not get the kind of reply referred to by Deputy Bell, such as the Minister has no responsibility to the House, or if I attempt an inquiry under the Freedom of Information Act, and issue the correspondence to the constituents I get a rash of telephone calls asking what am I doing and advising that the situation referred to has not been addressed and that things do not work that way. That relates to the western commuter route. I have given this matter attentive consideration over the past ten years. The commuters we are supposed to serve are bitterly disappointed.

The proliferation of heavy goods vehicles in the city centre and in town centres throughout the country should not be allowed. If they proliferate in areas where there are pedestrians and cyclists, accidents, some serious, will inevitably occur. Some years ago, the Committee on European Affairs commissioned a report on foot of EU directives on transport and the sharing of transport facilities and infrastructure by the road and rail transportation sections. That has not yet happened but doubtless it will.

The report identified a number of issues as being major contributory factors to massive traffic congestion in this city, none of which have been addressed. One factor was the proliferation of heavy goods vehicles and the lack of an alternative route for them. I am aware the Dublin Port Tunnel is under construction. An alternative measure was considered for alleviating traffic at peak times. Two proposals were made. One was to operate the docks at earlier and later hours but the dock authorities were not willing to co-operate. The other was to eliminate trade deliveries in the city at peak times. Driving through the city this morning, I encountered at least three major deliveries at sensitive junctions in the middle of rush hour traffic. I do not know why the DTO has not done anything about this. Is somebody so sacrosanct that the issue cannot be addressed?

I strongly supported the report of the Irish Road Hauliers Association on the basis that it could do more work and reduce its charges to everybody. I would have thought it would be a simple matter for the DTO, Dublin Corporation, traders, the Dublin Port and Docks Board or whoever wants to become involved to act together and try to eliminate the most severe hardships experienced by commuters who do not wish to be traumatised in the way they are at present. The matter needs to be addressed in a realistic fashion.

Mr. Henry referred to high density development, an issue trotted out regularly when developments are discussed in the context of spatial criteria and so on. It worries me because it deals with something that has failed, not only here but elsewhere. Intensive development of the kind anticipated by planning experts and economists in this country has been undertaken in other European countries but has subsequently been abandoned, destroyed and replaced. Sociologists and psychologists will outline the advantages and disadvantages of high rise developments. One need only drive half an hour from here to see stark examples. It is now proposed to repeat these mistakes to solve our traffic problem. I do not understand that. Somebody should tell the economists it is not a good idea to put all the eggs into one basket or presume that they or the traffic managers are right in their analyses. We are not the biggest country in Europe but neither are we the smallest.

There is a need re-examine this issue. The economists, sociologists and psychologists should get together and work out a resolution for the future that is not as basic as building a tower block beside a railway track to ensure ease of embarkation and disembarkation for the hungry hordes of commuters. We deserve more than that. Many of the things I said as a founder member of the Dublin Transport Initiative I repeat now.

Deputy Durkan is confusing high rise with high density. Ballymun is low density. It is less than ten houses per acre when it is spread out. We are not concerned with high rise but with high quality developments of more than ten to the acre. Most cities in Europe have higher density developments. If the footprint of the population of another European city were imposed on Dublin it would occupy approximately one third of the physical space of Dublin. By comparison with other European cities, we are very low density. We are not concerned with high rise but high density which is a completely different concept. We are also concerned with high quality high density. Deputy Durkan's perception is incorrect.

Mr. Henry, before leaving theDublin transportation study, will you outline to what degree you have been frustrated in your objectives and plans by the policy decision to deregulate the telecommunications market over the past few years? I have been told that one residential area in a Glasnevin estate was dug up 38 times. The streets throughout the city are being dug up, contributing to traffic problems. Can the Dublin Transportation Office or Dublin Corporation stop this farce?

I agree, Chairman. There are approximately 80 plus telecom operators inDublin, each claiming the same rights as the original Telecom Éireann. That presents many difficulties. Dublin Corporation did a lot of work trying to take control of the situation but it was not easy. We were asked by our Department to see if we could do something. We have managed to get all those involved in telecommunications and utilities to work together in a positive manner to produce a code of practice they will all observe. Each local authority had different rules and had no certainty about what they were doing. They would try to do the best they could and perhaps cut corners to get their infrastructure into place.

We have now got a group together that is working well but it will take another six months to complete its work. We are progressing the work done by Dublin Corporation with all of the utilities, which includes the telecoms operators, Bord Gáis Éireann and the ESB, to produce an agreed code of practice. One likely outcome will be that if a road is dug up there will be a moratorium on further digging for a number of years. We will also get them to share trenches and undertake all of the things that make sense. Given the competition between the operators, they do not always want to work together like that. However, I believe we have turned the corner in getting all the utilities to work together. We have a special group working on it. Much progress has been made in the past 18 months and I hope that within another six months or so we will have finalised the issue. I hope that will regulate matters.

Are there restrictions on work? Operators often work at night when the volume of traffic is not so high.

We try to restrict them during peak hours. We cannot have roadworks during peak hours. There might be a small window of opportunity during the day but it is still busy. They will be encouraged to work at night because they can make more progress then, although, if they work after 10 p.m., residents do not like the noise, all of which means that the working day is limited. We do not want to restrict the utilities in putting their infrastructure in place, but to make it easier for them to do so quickly and efficiently. We do not want to be seen as blocking what they are doing but to encourage efficient use of space and co-operation between the different agencies involved. We are getting there, although it will take another six months.

This has nothing to do with the core business of the strategic planning office which normally looks ten or 20 years ahead. However, the Minister asked us to look at this and to act as a co-ordinating body by getting people around a table, which we have done. Within the next six months we should have standards and a code of practice for all the utilities.

Will Mr. Glavey comment on paragraph 21?

Mr. Glavey

Paragraph 21 summarises the results of the Comptroller and Auditor General's review of the local government audit reports of the accounts of local authorities. In 2000, local authorities received over £800 million from the Exchequer and a further £600 million from the proceeds of motor taxation, which is channelled through the local government fund. In light of the large sums of Exchequer moneys involved, the Comptroller and Auditor General brings matters arising from the local government audit report to the attention of the committee so that it may have the opportunity to question the Accounting Officer on these matters should it wish to do so.

Mr. Callan, while I do not expect your observation on this, £800 million is a large sum from the Exchequer to local authorities and it is surprising that they are not answerable to any Dáil committee, as are other bodies, in relation to such spending. The local government auditors monitor the spending and report back to you, but this is an issue that should be examined in future because there should be some degree of accountability to the Dáil.

Some authorities, in the Dublin area in particular, seem to have significant funds by way of levies received from developers which are normally for road improvement and infrastructure in the area where the development is taking place. The amounts in the various bank accounts appear to be increasing at an exponential rate without being spent at the same rate. I have been on local authorities since 1985 and on South Dublin County Council before serving on Dublin Corporation. There does not appear to be full accountability for money in its capital account. I have asked for a breakdown of what the money will be spent on, but the council has never come up with more than approximately a quarter of the funds available as being set aside for particular projects.

Is it right for local authorities to have such money available and are the developments being levied too much? The levy on large and small developments, even single houses, appears great. Is it properly thought out and is there justification for it? I ask the witnesses for their comments on this and, if necessary, a full report on each county, listing all their capital balances, what they use it for, the amount of the levy they charge and if it is uniform throughout the country.

Mr. Callan

As the Deputy acknowledges, this is not a new concept although the recent Planning and Development Act revisited the area to restate and modernise the law in relation to it. Under the 1963 Act, a planning authority was empowered to charge development levies for any infrastructure provided within the previous seven years, I think, or likely to be provided within the following seven years which could benefit the development, although there was a loose causal connection in the legislation. I do not wish to comment now on the position in particular counties without checking further. In principle, a local authority had to be in a position to account for itself in terms of meeting the criteria to which I referred. In other words, a local authority was not free to salt the money away indefinitely or to spend it any old way. There is intended to be a connection between the levy and capital purposes benefiting the development or the locality in which it takes place.

It is a fair generalisation that those local authorities which have a large accumulation of development levies tend to be those in which de facto there is a lot of development. It follows that their development needs - those of SouthDublin County Council, for instance - are formidable. At the moment, we are involved with South Dublin County Council in part financing an ambitious outer ring road which requires a heavy capital contribution from the local authority, presumably on the back of the sort of levies of which the Deputy spoke. I do not have the detailed accounting but that is an example of that kind of project.

Under the more recent Planning and Development Act, 2000, the law changed so that a local authority must adopt a formal contribution scheme in relation both to the application and disposition of levies. There are dangers in me saying more than anything as general as this because I do not have the facts to hand. This is a recent change in the law and we can seek the more detailed profile for which the Deputy asked.

In relation to housing, which represents a big portion of the funding made available by the Oireachtas to the Department, can the Secretary General explain why, at a time when we have had more money than ever before, local authority housing lists have grown at such a rapid rate? In some local authority areas they are at the highest level ever. Another development is that we have a large number of single parent families and it appears that local authorities are unable or unwilling to come to grips with that growing problem.

It is generally accepted that the waste management programme throughout the country is in a mess and the Cork case highlighted that. Progress is at a minus level. The EPA is closing landfills, some local authorities are trying to privatise the area and others are introducing wheelie bins. There is no national programme or criteria set down by the Department as to how to deal with the issue. The longer this situation continues, the worse the problem gets. I would like to be able to ask the EPA some questions. Where will we put our refuse? Nobody is addressing the problem that people want it dumped but not near them. Some local authorities are finding it impossible to put together a waste management plan even now, four or five years, after legislation was introduced. Will you comment on that?

To return to the housing issue, my experience is that the Department makes an allocation to local authorities based on the number of houses built the previous year. That is putting the cart before the horse. Local authorities should submit proposals, in advance, to the Department stating the number of houses they want to build based on their housing lists and the categories within that list. Then the money should be allocated on need rather than on the level of housing provided over the last year or two.

I would like to elaborate a little on what Deputy Bell said concerning the waste management issue and the recent Supreme Court judgment. There was an item on local radio last night to do with the Limerick corporation area. The public representative advocated that people should not pay charges now but should put out their bins for domestic collection and the corporation would have to collect the refuse. I understand that, according to the court judgment, it would be up to the local authorities to pursue the issue, but they are compelled to collect the refuse. That judgment is a sea change. How will local authorities around the country interpret it and what guidelines will you give? Deputy Bell pointed out that there is no uniform national policy. In some areas the refuse service has been privatised but in others the local authorities collect the refuse. The whole issue could descend into chaos and farce on the basis of this court judgment.

Mr. Callan

I will deal with waste management first. The Department is reflecting on the implications of the recent Supreme Court judgment. The position is much as the Chairman stated. The court decided that a local authority has the ordinary right to recover waste charges as a debt but it does not the right to "short circuit" the process through the non-acceptance of somebody's domestic refuse. That situation is clear to the local authority concerned and to others. The policy of non-collection was an improvisation or interpretation of the law adopted by a number of local authorities. The Department did not advise them to do that. Given the practical difficulties which will now be created for waste collection systems around the country, the Minister will reflect on the situation. Whatever solution he decides on will be communicated in due course.

Deputy Bell raised other general issues on waste management. The Minister would not deny that this has been a difficult area of policy and practice over the last while, but progress is being made. Just 12 or 15 years ago waste management was something of a Cinderella service operated by local authorities in any manner they liked. Now it is the subject of both EU and national policy principles. We are, in a sense, trying to play catch up, to bring ourselves alongside. A lot of progress has been made in recent years. We have had a national recycling strategy in place since 1994 and it will be updated shortly. The Department published a major policy document on waste, Changing our Ways, in 1998. That document tried to show the way forward in terms of an integrated approach to waste management. This approach was based on recycling but adopted the best of all waste treatment solutions available.

In the last three or four years the EPA has been licensing all significant landfill facilities in the country and this has brought about a changed situation. It puts us under pressure because it brings into question the continued environmental viability of many existing landfills. That is as it should be because we were operating landfills to standards that were not sufficiently rigorous. We are now beginning to apply those standards for real and doubtless this has inconvenient consequences, but, in the long-term, the application of those standards will be environmentally beneficial.

We have a number of producer responsibility schemes up and running and more are on the way. The Repak initiative promoted jointly by IBEC and the Department is now in full flow and, thanks to its operations, Ireland will meet its requirement under the EU directive on recycling of packaging waste to recycle 25% of all packaging waste by 2001. We have other producer responsibility schemes in the pipeline and there is greater and healthier involvement of the private sector in waste issues than before. It is a business capacity which is developing in the private sector in relation to waste issues in Ireland and which will, undoubtedly, be helpful in the medium to long-term. While there are many difficulties in the area of environmental management for many countries, the seeds of a number of new directions are already well sown. I consider, perhaps with more confidence than in relation to some of the urban transportation issues referred to earlier, and with great respect to my colleague, John Henry, that this is an area in which we can reach good solutions perhaps quicker than in relation to urban transport. There are difficulties, but if good facilities can be engineered and put in place, they will transform the situation in a relatively short time.

You referred earlier to the impact of the Supreme Court judgment and the question of a period of reflection for the Minister and the Department on where one goes from here. I suggest the period of reflection be very short because all local authorities are currently starting their estimates phase and, where they are still involved in the refuse disposal business, this waste management issue is a major component. Those who have changed to using private operators will not necessarily be so worried about the Supreme Court judgment. I suggest the implications of that judgment will accelerate the departure of local authorities from involvement in waste management and that there will be a greater tendency to privatise the sector. With regard to recycling, all of us, even in local authorities and perhaps in the Department of the Environment and Local Government, pay lip service to the ideal. In my own area, a private operator has become involved in a very substantial way in the recycling business. How many local authorities involved in refuse collection on the basis that everything went into a landfill, have made a serious effort to set up a parallel recycling operation? When that happens, it will show that they are taking the matter seriously.

In cities in the UK which I visited recently, I saw some excellent recycling schemes in operation, with the various materials being segregated as people delivered them in their cars at the intake points. That was taking place with the encouragement of the local authority concerned. If we are to progress beyond just paying lip service to recycling, the Department of the Environment and Local Government must show positive leadership in the matter. Only very small scale activities are in progress in local authority areas, such as schemes involving young people in schools and introducing composting and so on. It is simply a token exercise.

Mr. Callan

Thank you, Chairman. I will, of course, pass on your comments to the Minister on the seriousness of the situation created by the Supreme Court judgment. In relation to recycling, we are about to publish a new and comprehensive recycling strategy, following the perhaps more modest one of 1994. In response to your question as to how seriously local authorities take the recycling business, I believe many of them do so, but that is not an opinion I wish to debate with the committee at this stage.

I do not want a debate. I am simply asking for examples of local authorities who have become seriously involved in recycling operations.

Mr. Callan

A number of them are involved in developing materials recycling facilities, but I wanted to go to——

Are they developing or do they actually have facilities, Mr. Callan?

Mr. Callan

I wanted to go to a fundamental point. Whatever one may think of local authorities, even if one accepts the thesis that, on the whole, local authority interest in this area has not been as strong as it should be, I simply wish to remind the committee that, thanks to the recently enacted Waste Management Act, a landfill levy will come into operation from early next year. That will incentivise or perhaps penalise those local authorities which do not make serious or substantive efforts in relation to recycling. In effect, local authorities will have to pay a tax to the Department in relation to every tonne of waste they take in through their gates. There is an incentive for local authorities to intensify their efforts to avoid such payments by adopting other means of treating waste, notably through recycling. That is the intention of the tax, the details of which are under consideration at the moment but the principle is already firmly established by the Legislature.

Deputy Bell raised the issue of housing lists and the need for increased provision of social housing. This is a key concern and that need is acknowledged in the national development plan. This year we expect through various means, including direct building, the affordable housing scheme, voluntary housing and many small initiatives in addition to the more expensive and capital intensive ones, to provide social housing for about 11,000 households. I consider that a worthwhile performance. I accept that, in certain ways, it is not as easy nowadays to provide in bulk, as it were, for local authority housing as it may have been 20 years ago. In those days, large monolithic estates embodying hundreds of houses, if not thousands, were commonplace. A local authority required no planning permission——

A lot, if not most of them, have been demolished.

Mr. Callan

Well, a local authority required no planning permission for them. They simply had to draw up the plans, establish a good price with a builder and have the houses built. Nowadays, people do not want the drawbacks and problems of that mode of providing local authority accommodation. As has been well demonstrated, we want more sensitive and more socially integrated methods of providing local authority housing. We are subject, and rightly so, to stricter expectations in terms of design and just as importantly to, in effect, a planning permission process through Part X and in some cases to environmental impact assessment.

What I have said is not by way of excuse or justification. I am simply saying that the entire process of providing local authority housing through direct build has necessarily become more differentiated and even fragmented at times. That is the reality of how——

Yes, but my point is that the old system of waiting until the Department decides how much money it will give to build how many houses should also have been scrapped along with the building of those terrible estates that were built in the past. Local authorities should be instructed to make their proposals and have them submitted before the end of the financial year, not after they are told how much money they will get and how many houses they can build.

Mr. Callan

Deputy, for the first time, in the year 2000 we introduced four year multi-annual programmes to address the concern you have just mentioned. That is the basis for the operation of the programme, going forward.

Have you issued an instruction to that effect to local authorities? If so, could we have a copy of it?

Mr. Callan

Yes, we have issued instructions and we could get you the literature on that.

I would hate to leave without returning to the issue of waste management. I do not believe that Mr. Callan specifically addressed my point. He spoke about incentives coming in next year with regard to levies etc. He said "no matter what you think of local authorities" or "no matter what we think of local authorities . . . ". I am a member of a local authority since 1985. I have attended waste management seminars. I remain unconvinced that local authorities have taken seriously the recycling initiative although they may in the future. If they were taking it seriously and wanted to do something tangible, they would operate recycling centres where there are millions of tons of material going into landfill sites. The private operators are attempting to do this and the local authority should seize the initiative if they are serious about taking action.

We draw comparisons with other European countries such as Denmark and Sweden, but we are not doing anything serious or tangible about the issue. We can develop that discussion if Mr. Callan wishes, but I would love to hear of local authorities who have invested in recycling, when they invested and how much money they have put into it. I am not talking about bottle banks, which are a separate issue, but about local authorities taking initiatives in the direction of recycling.

Mr. Callan

Chairman, we may have some case studies which respond to your concern. If so, I will provide you with a note on these. I cannot draw them to mind now. I entirely share the Chairman's views on recycling and the need for all of us to give recycling greater commitment and priority. The Chairman is right that the Department and the local authorities must show leadership. Equally, it is a feature of those countries where these things are done well that the whole of society and the educational system supports this thinking. That can be helpful also.

We must finance the local authorities to do the work.

Mr. Callan

Resources come into everything, Chairman. There is a wide effort to be mobilised and I share the Chairman's views.

The Flood tribunal was appointed in 1997. Expenditure on the tribunal in 2000 was almost £4 million. The total expenditure to date, cumulative to 31 December 2000, is £9,386,799. What is the estimate for the year 2001 for the Flood tribunal? Is the request from Justice Flood for two extra judges factored in?

Mr. Callan

No, this year's voted provision is £4.5 million.

So, that is £4.5 million along with £9,386,799, which is more than £14 million.

Mr. Callan

The expenditure in 1999 was £2.85 million, in 2000 it was maybe £4 million. I do not have the figures in front of me.

I have it in front of me in Vote 25, where it says that the cumulative expenditure until 31 December 2000 was £9,386,799. Are you saying that the £4.5 million for this year is in addition to that?

Mr. Callan

Yes, that is the estimate. That is the voted provision.

Will that bring the figure to more than £14 million?

Mr. Callan

Yes.

That £4.5 million does not factor in the request for two extra judges.

Mr. Callan

No.

So, we may anticipate a substantial financial provision for that next year?

Mr. Callan

Yes.

Have we any idea when the tribunal will end?

Mr. Callan

I do not know. The Chair will understand the sensitivity of the matter.

Mr. Callan

We are only a conduit for a very independent process. Our role is simply to service it in a mundane way in terms of——

Mundane services but £4.5 million per year. People will draw comparisons with the DIRT inquiry which cost an estimated £2 million with an estimated return to the State of £187 million from the banks. By 15 November, we will see an extra return from that. The timeframe for that inquiry was about one month. How long is a piece of string where these matters are concerned?

Mr. Callan

There are different processes.

Let us hope that by the end of 2002 you will be making your last financial provision for that.

The last time we met with the Department, we had a lengthy discussion on the question of car testing centres. The information that we got at that time was that the policy of the Department was to reduce the waiting time for tests to an eight week maximum waiting time. Has that been achieved?

Mr. Callan

Our stated customer service target was ten weeks waiting time. That objective has been met in quite a few of our test centres, including most of the larger ones. In Dublin, we are meeting in or around the ten week target. Overall, the national average stands at between 13 and 14 weeks. It is difficult in respect of some of the smaller centres. Times fluctuate up and down a little because the throughput is not as big or as easy to manage.

There was also a question which came up at that meeting in relation to the variations in the numbers that were failed or passed. There was wide variation between centres. There was a suggestion that there was a national programme to make the testing more standardised.

Mr. Callan

The Comptroller and Auditor General did an exercise on our driver testing service following which we undertook a more fundamental consultancy review of the delivery system for the tests. Arising from that, the Minister has announced the Government's decision to create a new agency for the provision of driving tests which would stand somewhat independently of the Department. Its exact definition is not yet decided in detail but in operational terms it would have greater independence from the Department than is the case at present. We are aiming within that structure to address all of the shortcomings identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and to modernise the service in many other ways.

Thank you very much. We will dispose of paragraphs 20 and 21 but, as Mr. Callan will appreciate, we decided previously to leave Vote 25 until such time as we completed our discussion on the Jeanie Johnston project in which a multi-faceted team was involved. We will suspend for five minutes as we are starting a new topic and bringing in a lot of new people. I excuse Mr. Henry, director of the Dublin Transportation Office, if he does not want to sit in on the committee’s deep discussions. I presume some of Mr. Callan’s officials will be staying on.

Mr. Callan

Yes.

Thank you.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at4.05 p.m.
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