COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jan 2002

Vol. 4 No. 2

2000 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 26 - Office of the Minister for Education and Science.

Vote 27 - First Level Education.

Vote 28 - Second Level and Further Education.

Vote 29 - Third Level and Further Education.

Acting Chairman

We come to the 2000 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts. We are dealing with Office of The Minister for Education and Science, Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29. Before commencing proceedings, I point out that members enjoy full privilege as it applies to the Dáil. Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's business. When speaking of somebody outside the House, members should recognise that the person should not be readily identifiable and should not be shown in a negative light. Notwithstanding the provision in the legislation, I should remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or refer to them by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision of standing order 149 that committees shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of a Government or a Minister of Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies, policy not being a matter appropriate to the committee.

Before I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, I ask Mr. John Dennehy, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science, to introduce his Department officials.

Mr. Dennehy (Secretary General, Department of Education and Science)

Thank you, Chairman. I am accompanied by Mr. Sean Harkin, Principal Officer in our accounts branch, Ms Bláithin Dowling, Mr. Alan O'Neill and Mr. Jerome Kelly. Also in attendance are our colleagues from the Department of Finance, Mr. EugeneO'Sullivan and Mr. John White.

Acting Chairman

Thank you. Deputies Michael Bell and Conor Lenihan will begin their examination and we will deal with the four Votes listed, taking them in sequence, as near as possible. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. John Purcell, wishes to comment on one paragraph which, perhaps, he will deal with now.

Mr. Purcell

Thank you, Chairman. As you said, I wish to deal with just one paragraph in the report on the Education group of Votes. It draws attention to difficulties encountered during the audit of vocational education committees in reconciling the figures in the accounts with the Department's records. Members will appreciate that one of the fundamental checks in auditing is to match issues of money with their subsequent receipt, to ensure that nothing has gone astray in the process and that the accounting records are being properly maintained. In the course of audit of many vocational education committees, my staff noted significant differences between the figures presented in the accounts of the vocational education committees and those available from the Department. Identifying the causes of the differences and resolving them was a time-consuming exercise which had the effect of delaying my certification of the accounts. I took up the matter with the accounting officer, who explained that the problem arose from shortcomings in the reporting mechanism for gathering the information within the Department. I am glad to say that, once it was brought to the accounting officer's attention, he soon put it right through the upgrading of procedures which will facilitate the reconciliation of payments on a systematic basis from now on. Thank you, Chairman.

Acting Chairman

Thank you very much. Do you wish to make an opening statement, Mr. Dennehy?

Mr. Dennehy

I am happy to avail of the opportunity to respond to the paragraph in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in relation to the discrepancies between the Department of Education and Science grant payments recorded in vocational education committee financial statements and independent notification of payments from the Department. Payments are made to the vocational education committees as part of a block grant which also covers VEC overheads and other activities, apart from the second level programme. The Department of Education and Science does not earmark allocations to individual schools or allocations for various activities of vocational education committees. The main financial scheme approved by the Department covers a wide range of pay and non-pay costs associated with mainstream second level education, in addition to a range of other items that form part of a VEC's overall financial scheme and are approved separately.

The discrepancies referred to by the Comptroller in his report arose because of the reporting mechanism then used by the Department for the purpose of assembling the information concerned. At that time, this mechanism depended on the collation of various reports by a number of different sections within the Department. Arising from the discrepancies referred to by Comptroller and as soon as the Comptroller brought this matter to our attention, the procedures governing the compilation of the Department's reports have been thoroughly reviewed and upgraded. More robust procedures have now been put in place whereby all payments issued to vocational education committees are identified centrally, through the Department's payment system. In addition, schedules have been issued now to all vocational education committees, containing details of all payments, classified by date and activity, made by the Department in 1999 and 2000. The revised arrangements will enable both the VEC and the Department to reconcile payments on a systematic basis. These arrangements now provide for a listing of payments issued to vocational education committees at the end of each four monthly period. This computerised facility now enables the Department to identify immediately all payments to vocational education committees by amount, date and source of payment. The Department also issued a detailed circular on this matter to vocational education committees, a copy of which we provided to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I also take this opportunity to inform the committee that the Department of Education and Science is currently developing an integrated financial management system, in the context of the Civil Service wide management information framework project. This system, when in place, will have state of the art IT capability which will enable instant identification of all categories of payments, including payments to vocational education committees, issuing from anywhere within the Department. I am confident, Chairman, that the steps now taken by the Department following the identification of the issue by the Comptroller and Auditor General, together with the ongoing development of the financial management system, will ensure that the circumstances which gave rise to the issues highlighted by the Comptroller in his report will not recur.

Deputy Bell

I am pleased the Secretary General has taken up the points raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General. At many meetings I expressed concern about the operation of vocational education committees in general, which were, in my opinion, politically corrupt, badly run financially and badly controlled. Can the Secretary General now give an undertaking that the total financial administration of vocational education committees will be updated and that we will not have the charade which we had over the last few years, when we got five or six years' VEC financial returns at one meeting? In my opinion, finances were going astray at VEC level and we were asked to adjudicate, five or six years later, on whether the accounts of a VEC were in order. That practice was also unfair to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Can we have an assurance that, within a reasonable period after the end of each financial year, all VEC returns will be submitted to this committee?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes, I am determined to ensure that our people in the Department will now watch this issue very closely and ensure that what the Deputy has asked will happen. Within the Department, we have put in place a new range of controls in relation to the operation of vocational education committees. We have also established a VEC support services unit, which includes our own internal auditor who has to date completed audits in 13 vocational education committees and has produced another list of recommendations. That is ongoing. In anticipation of the commencement of the relevant section of the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act, which will put in place a new range of reporting, accounting and financial procedures, we have already begun the process. I can give the committee the undertaking which Deputy Bell has sought.

Deputy Bell

I am very pleased about that because it is an issue which I have been following for quite a number of years. I am not sure if Mr. Dennehy was the boss at that stage, but the practice was that there were two accounts operating at VEC level. One account dealt with money allocated by the Department and another account was hidden in some other bank under some other heading, with the Department perhaps having no knowledge of it and no control over it. I ask Mr. Dennehy to tell the committee that no VEC has the right to set up a separate account for the administration of that VEC.

Mr. Dennehy

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Bell

Thank you. That is a relief to me after several years following this issue. The INTO circulated a list of schools at first level. There were four from my area and I followed the list up to find out how accurate it was. I discovered that the INTO was correct to draw attention to the fact that many schools at first level have not even got basic and proper toilet facilities and that many of the facilities in schools, particularly small schools in rural areas, are unhygienic. There is no basic equipment and many schools are seeking grants to rectify this situation. One school in my area has been seeking a grant for 15 years. I went to inspect that school and was appalled at what I found. What financial programme has been set up to deal with this? Does the Department agree with the INTO when it draws attention to this? If so, what is proposed be done about it?

Mr. Dennehy

Anybody, including the INTO, who draws our attention to a particular problem in relation to a school will have that problem investigated immediately by the Department. There are various lists of schools and, as the Deputy will be aware, there is an enormous building programme under way across the country. We are spending enormous sums of money. For the coming year, in excess of €551 million is in the Estimates for building at first, second and third level.

Deputy Bell

Is that a capital programme?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes. In addition, we have more projects and the scale of these is enormous in comparison to what was happening three or four years ago. Historically, there has been a deficit in school building across the country. Inadequate funding over a long period has led to a situation where there is a lot of catching up to be done. We are engaged in that and are working flat out in the attempt to catch up. For example, at primary level there are 80 building projects under construction at present. These projects are valued at in excess of €318,000 and we describe these as large or major projects. In addition, 1,300 grant approvals have issued for projects valued under €318,000. There are also 470 major building projects at architectural planning level.

In relation to the INTO list, we are working very closely with the Minister and looking at every school that has put in an application for improvement works. In that context, we are also looking very closely, and have been for some time, at the schools on the INTO list. Other schools have also been drawn to our attention by public representatives and other individuals and groups with a view to continuing the major building programme in coming years.

Deputy Bell

My remaining questions will have more to do with political debate. I am happy enough with the answers to my two questions.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Can Mr Dennehy give an update on the public private partnership arrangement? I would like him to address the issue of value for money. When the public private partnership was cited, it was suggested that we would get extremely good value for money. I understand that costs have escalated significantly. How significant are those cost increases?

In the light of public private partnerships, and with private enterprise running and managing the schools, has the Department looked at the difficulties that will arise for integration into the community? For instance, there may be difficulties for the various clubs and societies that wish to make use of school facilities, whether that relates to gyms, meeting rooms or otherwise? In my town of Ballincollig, a new community school is being built under public private partnership. The design is perfect, the project is on time and it will be a top class school. However, there will be a difficulty in relation to local clubs. While they could have a facility for £10 per hour under the old subsidised scheme, the likelihood is that costs will escalate significantly for small clubs wishing to use such facilities. There are concerns in the community, particularly among sporting bodies and other societies.

How will they pay the increased costs? How does the Department see the integration of these clubs into new public private partnerships? Is there any way in which the costs can be ameliorated for clubs and societies so that they can use the facilities? Has any thought been given to the difficulties that might arise in this instance?

Mr. Dennehy

The situation at the moment, as the Deputy will know, is that a "bundle" of five post primary schools that will cater for a total of about 3,500 pupils is being built under the PPP process. The timescale is quite short and it is envisaged that these schools will be ready for occupation at the end of the current calendar year. One of them is in Ballincollig. The procedure for these projects is that the schools will be designed, built, financed and operated for 25 years by, in this case, Jarvis Projects Ltd. The school building will be of the highest quality because the maintenance, cleaning, security, ground maintenance, etc, will be conducted by the project company. This means that they will build the schools to the highest specification and standard to ensure that the maintenance is not a huge drain on their financial resources. The schools will have extensive facilities, including extensive sports facilities, laboratories and so on. These facilities will be available to the local community.

The day to day running of the schools will be a matter for local management. The cost of hiring the school out to clubs and societies outside school hours is an issue that will have to be addressed, particularly when the schools are completed and begin to operate. They will probably be operational for a little while before we can be certain how that will work out. The Department is anxious that this will work in favour of the local community, the people for whom the school is built in the first instance. Officers of the Department and I would be very pleased to meet concerned people from the local community, immediately if necessary and again when the project is completed. We also intend to monitor the project very closely. Ours is one of the first Departments to establish a PPP unit, headed up by a principal officer, which is looking very closely at every aspect of this and keeping the whole process under review even as we speak and as the buildings are being constructed. We are also looking at future PPPs because we hope they will be a way of ensuring we get a higher quality building in some cases and relieve school principals from day-to-day maintenance of buildings, something they have been requesting for years.

The committee mentioned the matter of escalating costs. I do not have the exact figures with me, though I can certainly provide them if necessary, but I understand the total cost of the package of five buildings and their facilities is €81 million. It may be of interest to the committee that the European Investment Bank, which examined the commercial bank funding aspect of the project and advised the Department, said that the terms of the offer on the education project were the best it had seen in any European PPP. We were very pleased with that. The option of refinancing some of these projects at a later stage, should that be necessary, is built into the contract. It may be of benefit to the committee to know, though members may already be aware of it, that we have two other major PPP projects as well, both, indeed, not too far from Cork. One is the Cork School of Music and the other is the National Maritime College in Ringaskiddy. They are at an advanced stage, the Cork School of Music being the more advanced despite being held up by a planning appeal. It is now moving forward at full speed again and we will be keeping a close eye on it.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Naturally, we welcome that. Can the committee be given an update regarding the maritime school?

Mr. Dennehy

Preparation for the provision of the maritime school, the capital cost of which will be around €50 million - it is an expensive project - is well advanced. It is hoped that the preferred bidder will be appointed in February subject to the approval of our colleagues in the Department of Finance. We envisage the college will be available to its first intake of students in the 2003-04 academic year. That is our plan and things are moving ahead well.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

There was publicity which suggested the Department of Finance was very slow to give final approval and that there was a delay in getting the PPUs off the ground. Was there a significant increase from the Estimates given by the Department of Education and Science and the actuality in terms of the turn-out?

Mr. Dennehy

I do not have the exact figures with me, but I know that there was an increase. It would be unfair to our colleagues in the Department of Finance to say that they were very slow in giving their approval. There was quite a lot of discussion necessary in the education sector, particularly because these were the first PPPs. It was new and unfamiliar territory for all of us so there was much discussion between the two Departments, and with the project people, to try and get the issues resolved. The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, has said publicly on a number of occasions recently, and personally to me and the Secretaries General of other Departments, that he is anxious to see more PPPs coming from the education sector.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

In terms of the number of projects to be undertaken by the Department of Education and Science, there seems to be a significant number of schools in the primary sector listed as not being up to scratch, to say the least. Is the Department actively looking at the possibility of expediting the development of some of these replacement schools through the PPU system? In the normal run of events projects can take a minimum of three years to go through the various stages in the Department. In some instances that process can take up to five years whereas with the PPU it can be two years. If you were to go down the road of the PPU with some of the national schools it would certainly shorten the length of time in which the projects came to fruition. What is the view within the Department of Education and Science on extending PPUs to the national school sector?

Mr. Dennehy

The Minister is very anxious that we consider any building project from the point of view of what process should be used to get it done as quickly as possible. In that context and on the instruction of the Minister we are looking at all outstanding projects and examining some of them in the context of possible PPPs.

It may be straying a small bit away from PPPs, but an issue of some concern to us from the point of view of value for money is that a number of building projects, particularly at primary school level, that have been drawn to our attention have resulted from poor maintenance by school management. We are looking at that very closely. For some years we have been giving a devolved grant for minor works of £3,000 (€3,800) plus €13 per pupil. While the money would not pay for major works, we are very anxious from the perspective of value for money and accountability that the money be used to perform routine maintenance. A number of schools drawn to our attention have no toilet seats or have windows which have not been painted for ten or 15 years. I do not say that such maintenance will solve the building difficulties, but it is something we are looking at.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

That begs the question of what system of reportage is in place in terms of the condition and maintenance of schools. We get a hit list from the INTO from time to time detailing what schools are in bad condition.

Mr. Dennehy

It is easy enough to pick up a hit list and we can all go around and pick out schools with particular problems, but we are carrying out a major survey of all school buildings. We hope when this is done to have detailed, up-to-date information on all schools instantly available on computer. Obviously, we cannot audit every school, but we are looking, through spot checks, at the spending of the devolved grant over a number of years, particularly in the cases of schools where we have a concern.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Is not the principal of a school responsible for reporting back, even to the local inspector, what that money has been spent on and what maintenance has been carried out?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes, local inspectors visiting schools would be aware of and be in a position to report back to the Department on the problems relating to maintenance over a number of years. It is something about which we are certainly very conscious, have addressed and intend to continue to look at very carefully. The inventory of school accommodation will be very helpful to us in future planning for school refurbishment and rebuilding.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

With regard to demographics, in particular in terms of the third level sector, it is obvious that student numbers will fall dramatically and the number of places in the next ten years will probably be far in excess of the number of applications which are likely to come on stream. Do you envisage this having an impact on the points system and the level of points at entry? Do you envisage circumstances whereby parts of the third level sector will actively compete with each other to attract students? Are you concerned, for instance, that the regional centres such as Donegal or some of the third level colleges and institutes in outlying areas will be the first to be hit dramatically? Do we already have hard evidence that some of these institutes have class sizes as small as 13 and, in some cases, below ten and, therefore, face a real dilemma in terms of attracting students?

Mr. Dennehy

There is no question that student numbers will drop and may continue to drop. Having said that, we will make every effort to encourage more students at the end of second level to stay on and enter third level, whether a university or institute of technology. There are and will be renewed campaigns to retain students in the system and attract them into third level. In relation to the points system it is obvious, as the Deputy states, that there will be some easing of the points requirements as pupil numbers drop. That will certainly be the case for some courses, depending on the numbers of people applying for the courses and other factors.

We in the Department of Education and Science, as well as Enterprise Ireland and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, encourage these institutions to attract more students from abroad. I am aware, for example, that quite a number of the universities and some of the institutes of technology are getting quite a number of students from Asian countries such as China and Malaysia. I think this will become more of a feature. These students pay the full economic rates if they are non-EU citizens, which provides some extra income as well.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

The problem is that such students are anxious to enter the centralised institutes. The difficulty will be to persuade them to go to some of the regional institutes.

Mr. Dennehy

One of the things the Minister is very anxious to do, and we have been doing through our international side, is to encourage some of the institutes. I can think of a few institutes, which could be regarded as less central than others, in terms of the activity of the country, which are now becoming involved in that kind of activity.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

There is major concern within the third level sector about the drop-out rate. It has been suggested that it is even higher that 25% in some institutes. What is being done to address the drop-out rate? What has been done to analyse the exact reasons people have dropped out? Is an effort being made to pick them up within the extended education system?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes. Again, this is an issue which is receiving attention in both the IT and university sectors. A study of non-completion of undergraduates in university courses was undertaken by the Education Research Centre at the request of the Higher Education Authority and at the direct request of the Department. The council of directors of the institutes of technology have commissioned similar research. We have seen the results of this in some of the newspapers recently.

While the research undertaken initially was quantitative and aimed mainly at establishing the numbers, we have also recognised the need for qualitative research. We have asked the Education Research Centre to do an in-depth qualitative research study of the reasons for dropping out with a view to developing a range of strategies. We in the Department are committed to tackling this. In this context there is a wide range of initiatives in place, including the fact, for example, that individually and collectively the institutes of technology have established a committee on retention. We have given funding to each of them to look at why there is some drop-out. Every institute and university has been authorised to appoint a retention officer and a student liaison officer. In addition, counselling and advisory services are being provided by all the institutes because in many of cases of drop-out we are of the view that students perhaps opted for the wrong course or needed more advice in relation to the kind of course that would be best suited to them. This is being put in place.

Many staff seminars have been put in place by the institutes and we are also introducing a computerised system so that, again, we can identify very quickly the numbers dropping out in the various institutes and, I hope, do something about it. By the way, in some cases where students are recorded as having dropped out, what happened is that they have come out of one institution and gone to another. Sometimes the information about transferring from one third level institution to another is not as good as it should be.

Deputy McCormack

Mr. Dennehy stressed the projects that will be looked at this year as a result of representations from the INTO, public representatives and others, and that the Minister is examining every possible building project. What provision has been made in the Department of Finance to fund those projects if they get that far this year?

Mr. Dennehy

There is an enormous amount of money available for school building in the coming year in the Estimates and from budgetary provisions. At the moment, we have €550 million available for building projects for this year. There has been a massive increase in the funding available over the last couple of years and an enormous range of projects are taking place.

Deputy McCormack

It is great to hear there is so much money available. What is the average timescale from the point at which a school makes an application for an extension or refurbishment to the start of work?

Mr. Dennehy

I am not sure that there is an average, but it can take——

Deputy McCormack

There has to be an average.

Mr. Dennehy

There probably is. It depends on the size and scale of the project. The usual time for a new school on a greenfield site can be from two to four years depending on the complexities involved. The purchase of a site can take months or a year or two. Sometimes there are delays in getting planning permission, fire certificates and so on. Sometimes the design team appointed to design the school can take a long time. A number of the projects have been delayed because the design team disregarded or did not fully take into account the design guidelines and this necessitated much toing and froing between the design team and the Department. There is a wide and variable range of factors and, again, the size and scale of the project is a very important factor.

Deputy McCormack

Mr. Dennehy said it takes between two and four years for a new greenfield site.

Mr. Dennehy

A major development.

Deputy McCormack

Yes. What then would be the average timescale for refurbishment or extension? I know some that are going on for four years and longer.

Mr. Dennehy

Again, it depends on a range of factors. I would need to have knowledge of individual cases and to look precisely at why it has taken so long.

Deputy McCormack

I am trying to establish if the ones I am dealing with are more complicated than others. I got the impression from what Mr. Dennehy said that a lot of work would be done this year but that is not the reality on the ground.

Mr. Dennehy

The reality on the ground is that an enormous amount of work has been done over the last number of years but there is still a huge amount of building work to be done. I repeat that there is no question in my mind that over a long period of years insufficient money was spent on school buildings. In the last three years an enormous number of projects have been initiated and an enormous amount of money is being spent and that is the case for the coming year as well.

Deputy McCormack

That is fine. On Vote 26, does the £26 million refer to salaries for teachers?

Mr. Dennehy

It refers to the Department's own staff.

Deputy McCormack

Does that exclude teachers?

Mr. Dennehy

It does.

Deputy McCormack

Where are teachers' salaries shown?

Mr. Dennehy

They are shown in first level and second level education respectively, subhead A in each case.

Deputy McCormack

Vote 2 includes £51 million for transport services. To what transport services does this refer?

Mr. Dennehy

The general school transport scheme.

Deputy McCormack

In other words, almost twice as much is spent on the general school transport scheme than on the wages in the Department.

Mr. Dennehy

We have always said that the Department is understaffed. Departmental staff wages are less than 1% of our total expenditure.

Deputy M. Ahern

Following the closure of Irish ISPAT, formerly Irish Steel, a substantial property on the island of Haulbowline will become available at some stage. It had been suggested that the maritime college should be located in that area because of the facilities there, such as the basin. Have there been any discussions with different bodies in that regard?

Mr. Dennehy

There may have been but I am not aware of them. I will check on the matter.

Deputy M. Ahern

It has been mentioned also that there will be a substantial cost for the college and I am sure Cork Harbour Board would love to get its hands on the site on which it is being built. This would provide much funding that would help the coffers of the Department of Education and Science.

Mr. Dennehy

While we are responsible for building the college we are working closely with a number of other Departments, especially the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources and the Department of Defence. That is not an attempt to hide behind any other Department.

Deputy M. Ahern

I understand.

Mr. Dennehy

It is a joint project involving a number of Government Departments. As the Deputy knows, the national maritime college will replace existing civil and naval training facilities.

Deputy M. Ahern

Can we get an update on the situation raised by Deputy O'Keeffe regarding third level and especially the institutes of technology? What is the position in the institute of technology in Tralee regarding the suspension of a director and the stepping down of the chairman?

Mr. Dennehy

Some difficulties arose between the former governing body in Tralee and the chairman and director of the institute. As a result of that, in 2000 the Minister appointed an inspector to investigate certain matters regarding the operation and management of the institute. The investigation was carried out under the terms of section 20 of the Regional Technical Colleges (Amendment) Act, 1999. The inspector operated to set terms of reference and furnished his report to the Department last year. Following a very detailed consideration of that report the Minister decided to establish a sworn inquiry in regard to a number of issues arising from it. Pending the outcome of that report, the director was suspended from office and at that stage the chairman also stepped down.

The inquiry will take some months to complete and the institute's director has been appointed in a temporary capacity as acting director. The Department entered into discussion with the Office of the Attorney General in regard to the initiation of the sworn inquiry, including the terms of reference and so on, and we are about to put that in place.

Deputy M. Ahern

Thank you.

Acting Chairman

With regard to Vote 27, the saving was reported to be due to a number of caretaker posts not being filled and the cost of arrears to caretakers being less than anticipated. I am sure there is a wider explanation. What happened to the caretaker posts in the meantime?

Mr. Dennehy

I will need a more detailed briefing on this matter.

Acting Chairman

I thought that would be the case. There is also a saving referred to under subhead F1. The saving resulted mainly because expenditure on early childhood education projects and the primary pupil database did not commence before the end of the year. I understand how that might have happened before the end of the year. However, it commenced and is now fully up and running. Subhead G goes on to state that the excess was mainly due to the higher than anticipated number of special needs assistants being appointed. I understand the need for that, but we could complain that sufficient provision had not been made there. However, in the following line it says the access was due to higher than anticipated pay and non-pay costs relating to the operation of young offender centres. This issue has been very much to the fore in recent times. I have no doubt that you have a long spiel on the background history of those.

Mr. Dennehy

The savings concerning the caretaking and clerical services amounted to £388,000 in that particular year, which can be attributed to a number of factors. A number of caretaker posts fell vacant when the schools were included in the scheme of additional capitation grants. There were a number of schemes for caretaking and clerical services introduced under the PESP programme. That is the reason.

Acting Chairman

The posts were not discontinued, but just carried on under a different heading.

Mr. Dennehy

That is correct. They were under a different heading.

Acting Chairman

I do not wish to be awkward, but what about the other ones?

Mr. Dennehy

No, you are not, Chairman. With regard to the special services for children in care, the excess at that particular stage of about £1 million was due to a number of complicated factors, including the child abuse issue and the fact that staffing numbers have to be doubled in many cases. Traditionally, an individual staff member could have dealt with individual young offenders in rooms, for example. In addition, there were higher than anticipated levels of substitution and overtime among the staff of the special schools. During the period in question, apparently there were quite a number of unusually disruptive and unruly children. This required a doubling up of staff in many cases. Also included in that is the cost of a severance package for some staff of Trinity House school.

Acting Chairman

Yes. With regard to special needs assistants, it would appear that there will be an ongoing and much greater need in the future. The degree to which the need was met in 2000 and 2001 will reflect on the way it will be met in 2002.

Mr. Dennehy

To begin with, as the Deputy will be aware, it is a demand-led scheme. As a result of the Government decision in 1998 to provide child care assistants wherever needed, we appoint them whenever the need is identified. For example, in the last couple of years, the number of special needs assistants in primary schools has grown from 300 to 2,500. We are continuing to appoint special needs assistants and resource teachers where we are satisfied there is a need for them. The number of resource teachers has also increased over the past four years from about 100 to over 1,000. Where the need is identified, we investigate such cases as a matter of absolute priority and try to authorise new appointments and put people in place as quickly as we can.

Acting Chairman

Have you a system of tabulating the needs when they are pointed out to you and a period within which you would hopefully be in a position to respond?

Mr. Dennehy

We have. We do not have a set period of a number of weeks or whatever. However, all our staff have been instructed, through our special education people, that all the issues concerning special needs children must be given top priority and be dealt with immediately. Inevitably, a delay occurs occasionally. When that happens, we regret it and try to put it right.

Acting Chairman

Can you identify your requirement in terms of special needs assistants at any particular time?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes.

Acting Chairman

You can.

Mr. Dennehy

Can we identify the requirement? No, we cannot. Again, it is very much demand-led. It depends on, for example, new children coming to a school or a child being diagnosed and psychologically assessed. We try to respond to it then.

Acting Chairman

Surely it should be possible in January to evaluate the need based on the requirements as set out by the various authorities throughout the country. It should be possible for the Department to collate the information and identify it at a glance.

Mr. Dennehy

We can do that with reasonable accuracy, but we would never be 100% sure that we were responding to the ongoing needs of a school or the ongoing needs of individual children, which can change. There were less appeals people in the system prior to 1998. There are now about 1,000 teachers and 2,500 special needs assistants. It is now easier to identify the need because a lot of the cases that were needy have been dealt with.

Acting Chairman

How many more special needs assistants are required now given that you said it is easy to identify them?

Mr. Dennehy

It is easy to identify them but I have not a notion how many we need now.

Acting Chairman

Could you get that information for us? It would be useful in terms of——

Mr. Dennehy

We regard this as a demand-led system. It depends on the number of schools that write to us. We get letters on a daily basis from schools as far away as Donegal or Kerry making individual requests. Even if we were to write to every school and ask them about their current needs, those needs could change next week.

Acting Chairman

I accept that. The only problem is that we are coming from a retrospective position as well. It is not the best way to go about it. Surely it would be simpler and more efficient if, on an ongoing basis over a specified period of time, the need could be identified in so far as that is possible and projections could be made on that basis. Instead of working retrospectively, we could be up to date on what is a very sensitive subject.

Mr. Dennehy

Again, we would like to remain as up to date as we possibly can. With such a wide range of disabilities, bearing in mind, for example, the needs of children with autism, which we have only become knowledgeable about in recent years, it would not be possible to quantify with any accuracy what the future or ongoing need in this area would be, other than to say that we now have a system in place which responds to the needs presented to us with all the speed we can.

Acting Chairman

How many young offender centres is the Department responsible for?

Mr. Dennehy

There are five young offender centres.

Acting Chairman

How many people do they cater for?

Mr. Dennehy

Of the five young offender centres, Trinity House has 24 places, Finglas Child and Adolescent Centre has 39 places, St. Joseph's, Clonmel has 40 places, Oberstown Boys' Centre has 24 places and Oberstown Girls' Centre has 15 places.

Acting Chairman

So there are over 140 places.

Mr. Dennehy

Yes.

Acting Chairman

How adequate is that to meet the needs? If one listens to what some judges say from time to time, it would appear that the need is not nearly being met.

Mr. Dennehy

The issue attracts occasional negative comments from the media and from some members of the Judiciary in the Children's Court. There is undoubtedly pressure for places in schools for young offenders and particularly in our reformatory schools catering for those who are older and are charged with more serious cases. Sometimes it reflects the particular circumstances of an individual case rather than the lack of places or accommodation shortages. For example, there have been a number of instances where courts have sought to place children in facilities where they had not been found guilty of an offence. Those children generally would be placed in a health board facility rather than an education facility.

Acting Chairman

I am a former member of a health board. One of the points that occurs to me is that responsibility for offenders falls between three Departments. For junior offenders, responsibility lies with the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Children. For some unknown reason those Departments are unable to meet the requirements identified by those at the coal face. In a recent case an offender with a string of offences had to be released because there was no place to send him. Surely it should be possible for the two Departments to identify the projected needs and meet them within a reasonable time. We have been talking about this for ten years.

Mr. Dennehy

The need for co-ordination is something about which I agree with the Chairman. It has been absent in the past. The Children Act, 2001, provided for the establishment of a special residential services board. We are sure that board, which was put in place in November, will help in this area. The board will provide policy advice to the Ministers on the remand and detention of children in detention schools and special care units. It will provide ongoing advice on the co-ordination and delivery of accommodation and support services for children. In the few months that it has been in place things have improved considerably.

Acting Chairman

Perhaps one does not require a board to establish the requirement. There are already 142 places; they are either filled or not filled.

Mr. Dennehy

They are not filled.

Acting Chairman

Why do we have the problem of young offenders continually being referred to different places?

Mr. Dennehy

It is because very often they are not offenders; they are young people in trouble. Very often there is a difficulty about where those people can legally be placed and where they should be placed. I agree with the Chairman that it has led in the past to an unseemly dispute or argument between Government Departments as to where they should be placed. Conscious of that, the Children Act established a board with a chief executive officer, drawing on experts and members from various Departments to advise on an ongoing basis. It will also advise on the appropriateness of placement and provision.

Acting Chairman

Am I correct that, at this stage, there are no circumstances in which a young offender appears in court but there is no place to send him or her?

Mr. Dennehy

That could not be guaranteed because on any given occasion a centre may or may not have accommodation depending on how many people are in it.

Acting Chairman

So there is insufficient accommodation.

Mr. Dennehy

Generally speaking, there is and there has been in recent years. However, we are currently engaged in an expansion programme in our centres, as are the health boards.

Acting Chairman

The full answer to the question is that there are insufficient places to meet the peaks that arise from time to time.

Mr. Dennehy

There may or may not be.

Acting Chairman

Obviously there are not; otherwise, there would be plenty of spaces for them.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is the Department participating in all the local drugs task forces? Does it have a nominee on most of them at this stage?

Mr. Dennehy

I have an up to date memo on it and an official has been nominated to all the drugs task force areas. Those people are HEOs, APs or, in some cases, members of our inspectorate.

Deputy Rabbitte

Where is the absorption of people who were on CE programmes providing back up in schools either as caretakers or classroom assistants following the transfer between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment? Is that now in place?

Mr. Dennehy

Funding has been transferred to our Department and has been sent to schools. That tranche of funding went out at the end of 2001 and further funding will issue this year. This would be for normal caretaking and secretarial help in schools. Some schools employed a number of other people as classroom assistants and for other purposes. In discussion with FÁS it was agreed that all the people who were in place could finish out their period over the next three years as a transitional arrangement. That will enable us to look at the wider issues.

We have appointed a consultant to look at the issue relating to some schools around the country. I am aware of schools in some areas that had a number of these people doing a range of activities, but not necessarily caretaking or secretarial work. The Minister made a decision to hold £2 million to help schools where particular difficulties were identified. We hope to identify those very quickly.

Deputy Rabbitte

Other than that transition provision, are people who were previously working in caretaker or secretarial capacities now employees of the Department of Education and Science? What is the procedure to resolve that?

Mr. Dennehy

No, they are employees of the individual school boards. We pay the money by way of a grant to the school board and the board then employs locally. They were strongly advised to take cognisance of the people who were already working in the school. My understanding is that many of the schools continue to employ people who were already there.

Deputy Rabbitte

They have been asked to have regard for those who were already employed.

Mr. Dennehy

Yes.

Deputy Rabbitte

However, they are not obliged to employ them.

Mr. Dennehy

No.

Deputy Rabbitte

Have there been many problems?

Mr. Dennehy

None of which I am aware. The problems that arose were where a larger than normal number of people was assisting in a school. We are conscious of that and have met people from a number of individual schools. We have agreed to meet representatives of any school that asked to speak to us about their circumstances to ensure that we assist schools.

Deputy Rabbitte

I am interested in the disadvantaged areas. When will the education welfare officers provided for in the Act be in place and when will they prosecute school attendance offences and so on?

Mr. Dennehy

The educational welfare board is now up and running and, to my knowledge, the chief executive has been appointed although I am not 100% sure of that. The advertisement was in the newspaper just before Christmas. The idea is that we move forward from there.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is it the board that makes the appointments?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is it one board for all regions?

Mr. Dennehy

It is, yes. It is a national welfare board for the country. The board, which has been operating now for some time, was initially set up as a designate board but will be established as a full statutory board.

Deputy Rabbitte

Without wishing to reduce this to a constituency clinic, I represent an area in which there are a number of designated disadvantaged schools. As they are located in the county area, school attendance was nominally the responsibility of the Garda but was obviously not undertaken by them. I am just anxious to know, as are a lot of parents in the area, when areas like that might be covered by the new regime because school non-attendance is, I am afraid, quite widespread. Will this issue be a priority for the board?

Mr. Dennehy

The situation is that the board will give priority to areas of disadvantage, particularly in relation to students from an area who generally drop out of school earlier than normal. It is the areas identified around the country as areas of disadvantage that will get priority in the first instance and, indeed with that in mind, the Minister, when appointing the chair of the designate board, appointed someone who has a known expertise in this area of educational disadvantage and is very involved in it nationally.

Deputy Rabbitte

What is your best hope? Will someone be appointed in this academic year?

Mr. Dennehy

Yes. The money has been provided for that purpose this year and we intend that will happen.

Deputy Rabbitte

Mr. Dennehy may not have this information but he can supply it to us later. In relation to the west Dublin teachers' educational training centre for which a new facility is being constructed on the grounds of the institute of education in Tallaght, there was some hold-up and difficulties arose between the Department and the centre and perhaps the college. Have these been resolved?

Mr. Dennehy

It is in the final stages of being resolved. I looked at this question myself because it was of concern to me that the education centre was completed but not yet in use. My up to date information, even though things may have happened in the past day or two, is that there were some difficulties between the education centre people and the institute and there were some questions in relation to the lease and the terms of the lease. An assistant secretary of the Department with responsibility for buildings, on my instruction, brought all of the people concerned together immediately before Christmas, including people from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor, with a view to resolving this and getting the business done. These are technical issues which should not drag on. These were the instructions that were given to the people involved. We are very close, if it has not already happened in the last few days, to having the issue totally resolved and the centre in use for the purpose for which it was built.

Acting Chairman

I want to ask two very easy questions. One relates to the issue raised by Deputies earlier in relation to public-private partnerships and the other relates to reviews of exam results and the potential difficulties created for students. I understand that after 20 years the structures undertaken under public-private partnerships revert to the Department of Education and Science.

Mr. Dennehy

Twenty-five years.

Acting Chairman

To what extent has the Department carried out an evaluation of the potential cost implications involved, given that the facilities will have existed for 25 years and will have been subjected to the rigours of operation for that period of time? I presume the Department has calculated the likely cost impact after the 25 years in terms of refurbishment, replacement of existing facilities, depleted facilities and so on.

Mr. Dennehy

I do not have accurate figures on that but we have looked at this carefully. This relates to something I said earlier about routine maintenance of a building. We have examples around the country of schools built more than 40 years ago.

Acting Chairman

Are they guaranteed for 40 years?

Mr. Dennehy

I do not think so.

Acting Chairman

What is the normal building guarantee that goes with them? Usually a building has an anticipated life span.

Mr. Dennehy

I do not know but I can check that for you. We are of the view that these buildings are built to the highest standards and specifications, higher than the normal school building has been up to now. In addition to that, because we are of the view that they will be well maintained because ongoing maintenance is part of the contract, we are satisfied that we will get buildings that are well maintained. In 25 years I do not know how many of us will be around to know with any accuracy, but we are very hopeful that those buildings will still be well maintained and of high quality

Acting Chairman

Notwithstanding the lack of foresight in regard to our longevity, it would be no harm if a future generation could look back fondly and say that we had great foresight.

Mr. Dennehy

I am sure they will.

Acting Chairman

Is there any danger in the 20th year of maintenance and refurbishment being scaled down, given the fact that the structures are to be handed back to the institutions of State within five years? Has the Department built in any provisos into the contracts for that?

Mr. Dennehy

We built a proviso into the contracts in relation to the ongoing high quality maintenance and running of the buildings right up to the day they are handed over to us.

Acting Chairman

All right. I will presume that the Department has done a good job there. The last question relates an issue which has arisen on numerous occasions in recent years. What are the cost implications of reviewing exam results given that there is an entitlement to have them reviewed at all times? In most cases in the past, the result remained the same although it changed in some cases. A large scale review in a particular area showed an underscoring of points resulting in a potential lack of placement for students in particular categories. Does that have implications in that students' rights were infringed and could there be resultant cost implications this year or in years to come?

Mr. Dennehy

There could be Chairman, particularly in regard to leaving certificate students who did not receive the grade marks to which they were entitled. Every effort will be made by the Department to have those students placed either in the current year or the following year in their preferred course or the one for which they had adequate points.

Acting Chairman

How will you make retrospective provision? Most of them will have gone on another course and perhaps some will not have gone on any course.

Mr. Dennehy

Some of them do. In relation to that particular leaving cert business result, it would appear to us from the preliminary work that we had done just immediately before Christmas with the schools themselves, and indeed in relation to the points system, that there was only one of those students where it could have made an appreciable difference in relation to the particular course of their choice. There may have been cases where students got a place in a particular institution and if they had slightly higher points they may have been able to take a course that was available nearer to their home. This applies particularly to the institutes of technology. That issue is being worked out at the moment with the individual students and the schools concerned.

Acting Chairman

How many students are involved?

Mr. Dennehy

I cannot remember off the top of my head. I do not have the exact number of students in relation to the leaving cert. I think it was in or around 100, but I am not 100% sure of the accurate figure.

Acting Chairman

The implications are more serious for leaving certificate students than for the others.

Mr. Dennehy

Absolutely.

Acting Chairman

Have they all been identified at this stage?

Mr. Dennehy

They have, yes.

Acting Chairman

How do you propose to ensure that there is not a repetition in future years?

Mr. Dennehy

First of all, this was one isolated incident out of 6,500 examiners. This was the work of one individual examiner. There were about two million pieces of paper or projects associated with the examination system. It was a relatively small number, but it happened and it should not have happened. It is an issue with which we have to deal.

Arising from the upgrades we established a working group within the Department chaired by a deputy chief inspector who has a lifetime of experience in the examinations system, assisted by others. The working group will look at all aspects of the marking process and the marking of examination scripts. We have asked that full details and a report be provided as quickly as possible to the Minister. I am certain that as a result of that, more stringent procedures will be put in place. These procedures will be published in May of this year in the information book that we send out to all leaving certificate students. In addition, we would continue to encourage students if they have the slightest doubt about their examination results to view their scripts. We are one of the few countries in the world where students are facilitated in that way. Any student who has sat the leaving certificate and has any doubt or question about the result obtained can view their script in the company of their teacher or whoever and then make an informed decision as to whether to appeal that result. We strongly encourage students to view their scripts if they have any doubt so that they can then make an informed decision.

Acting Chairman

We are glad to hear that because it was suggested that the normal procedure had been carried out in these cases and that it was at the insistence of a couple of principals or teachers who felt they knew their students better that the major review took place which showed up the defect to which you refer. I wouldlike to be sure that in future years it would not require that degree of insistence.

Mr. Dennehy

Absolutely. I agree with you, Chairman.

Deputy Bell

I have nothing further to add. However, I wish to raise another issue under.

Acting Chairman

Are Votes 26 to 29 inclusive, agreed? Agreed. We now come to any other business. I thank the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science and his officials and the Department of Finance officials for their attendance.

Deputy Bell

I wish to raise an issue in public while the media are here. An article appeared in the Evening Herald which effectively said that a delegation which consisted of myself, the Chairman, Deputies Conor Lenihan and Jim Mitchell and the clerk of the committee did not make a report on that visit to Argentina a year ago. There are a number of inaccuracies in the newspaper report. It was not a year ago but rather last March. The figures quoted as expenditure for that visit are equally inaccurate. It is most annoying that the editor of that newspaper who does not send a representative here to cover the proceedings of this committee states that no report was given on the visit to Argentina. That is a deliberate lie. Very shortly after that visit a very detailed, comprehensive and extensive report was made to this committee. The article is untrue in total substance. It is not fair to the members of this committee. The committee made a decision not to make public reports of visits abroad for a whole variety of reasons. I have the report and I have no intention of releasing it unless this committee so decides. I ask you, Chairman, to ask the clerk of the committee to write to the editor of the Evening Herald to bring to his notice the inaccurate reporting of statements made by that delegation and by this committee.

Acting Chairman

We must first of all withdraw the reference to a lie. It is unparliamentary.

Deputy Bell

They seem to be allowed to say anything they want, unlike us. It is a good job we have libel laws.

Acting Chairman

In regard to the inaccuracies concerned, I presume that the secretariat will make contact and inform the committee accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The agenda for the meeting on 22 January will be as follows: Vote 33 (resumed); Midland Health Board at 12.45 p.m.; Mid-Western Health Board and North-Western Health Board, nursing homes subventions special report number three (resumed); Southern Health Board annual financial statements 1997-99; South-Eastern Health Board annual financial statements 1994, 1997, 1998 and 1999; Western Health Board financial statements 1997, 1998 and 1999; and North-Eastern Health Board annual financial statements 1997, 1998 and 1999. Is the agenda agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 12 noon on Tuesday, 22 January 2002.