I invite Mr. Purcell to give an introduction.
Eastern Regional Health Authority Consolidated Accounts 2001.
Mr. Purcell
The consolidated accounts of the Eastern Regional Health Authority give a good picture of the financial scale of activity undertaken by the authority and the three constituent area boards in 2001. The accounts, which are in Irish pounds — I will translate them into euro — show total net current expenditure of well over €2.5 billion plus capital expenditure of €180 million in the year. The amounts include not only the expenditure of the ERHA and the area boards but also the amounts transferred to the voluntary hospitals and agencies which now come under the remit of the authority. These latter amounts account for €1.38 billion for running the hospital and other services provided by the voluntary sector, and €68 million of the capital expenditure incurred.
From a financial accounting point of view, things settled down in 2001 after the problems encountered in 2000 with the transfer of functions from the former Eastern Health Board. I refer to these matters in section 6 report on the accounts of the authority and the area boards for the ten-month initial accounting period in 2000.
There is nothing in particular to which I wish to draw the committee's attention on the 2001 consolidated accounts except, perhaps, note 16 on page 60 of the accounts which shows that the book value of the authority's land assets has increased dramatically as and from 1 January 2002. Even though it is from 2002, I thought it important that it should be recorded in the 2001 accounts. This increase is a consequence of applying the most up-to-date valuation guidelines issued by the Department, and the revaluation exercise has increased the book value of the lands from €80 million at the end of 2001 to €733 million in 2002. I should say that the audit of the 2002 consolidated accounts has yet to be finalised, pending the resolution of what I see as an important issue in one of the area board's accounts.
Mr. Lyons, do you wish to make an opening statement on it?
Mr. Lyons
Yes. I wish to put on the record the statutory position in the eastern region. The Eastern Regional Health Authority and the three area boards, as the committee will know, were established on 1 March under the Health (Eastern Regional Health Authority) Act 1999. Under the legislation the authority is responsible for the health and personal social services of the 1.5 million people in the eastern region, which comprises the counties of Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow.
Under sections 8 and 10 of the 1999 Act, the authority commissioned services by means of agreements with the three area health boards, and with the 36 mainly voluntary organisations which provide services within the region. It is these organisations that directly provide care services to persons in the authority's functional area under delegations from the board of the authority. The area chief executive derives other functions under delegation from the regional chief executive. In addition, section 18(8) of the 1999 Act provides that the area chief executive should assist the regional chief executive in carrying out his or her duties, which include attendance at the Committee of Public Accounts. I have the three area chief executives with me today. They are Mr. Martin Gallagher from the east coast area board, Ms Maureen Windle from the northern area board, and Mr. Pat Donnelly from the south western area health board, with supporting officials.
Mr. Purcell raised a query about the cost of the landbank rising from €80 million to €733 million. That seems an extraordinary increase. What plans do you have for the landbank?
Mr. Lyons
The revised valuations are welcome and give us increased scope in the context of our strategic planning over the coming 12 months, as things stands at present, to convert these assets by way of disposal to set against other required capital development in the region, which has been identified in a number of regional and national strategies, such as the national cancer programme and the cardiovascular programme.
Do you have to seek permission from the Department to sell these assets or what is the procedure?
Mr. Lyons
The short answer is "No", it is a board function. With your permission, Chairman, I could ask Mr. Liam Woods, the director of finance, to elaborate on that point.
Mr. Liam Woods
We note the significance of the revaluations and clearly there has been a significant uplift in the region. From time to time, the authority and area boards are required to acquire and dispose of property, so it does swing both ways for us. In the course of the last year, the authority, with the area boards, has put together a comprehensive database of assets with a view to looking at their efficient utilisation and possible alternate utilisation. We will have a special meeting of our finance and property committee later this month on the issue of asset strategy and policy. Our main focus is to examine what value we can derive from assets, particularly those that may be under-utilised and that could contribute to the service by capital expenditure. We will be undertaking that examination in the course of 2004.
There is an asset base of €700 million. Is it planned to incorporate any social housing on this landbank?
Mr. Woods
We are currently completing a transaction with Dublin City Council for social housing on the site of Cherry Orchard Hospital. We are already engaged in that, therefore, and have had active discussions with the city council and other councils in the region on that issue. So, yes, there is some use of the asset base where it is available and free for social housing purposes.
With regard to the realisation of €700 million on your landbank, is that a conservative figure or not?
Mr. Woods
As the Comptroller and Auditor General explained, the figure is based on valuations estimated by the Department of Health and Children. The increase in valuations has given this uplift in stated value. At the point of sale we are required to get an open market value and that is moving from time to time. Our experience has been that we can at times outperform these values, but that is very much dependent on the market and the particular site. We should perhaps emphasise that these lands are in use for health purposes; they are not all available for sale. It is only at the margins or in specific locations or areas that there may be opportunities for sale.
Of that €700 million, can you indicate what percentage would be for sale?
Mr. Woods
That is a very good question, Chairman. I would have to look further at our own database concerning it but we are going through that process ourselves. We have looked at some sites as priority for disposal, one of which is the Cherry Orchard site, which I have mentioned. We have also looked at possibilities on the site of St. Loman's Hospital and that has been before our board. We have been engaged in discussions on a site at Grangegorman with the Department of Education and Science. There are a number of sites like those that would be given priority but at this stage I cannot give you a percentage figure, Chairman. I would need to come back to you with that.
On your asset register a building was omitted which was sold for the Luas development. How satisfied are you that your asset register is up to date?
Mr. Woods
We inherited an asset register at the time the authority was created in March 2000. We have since gone through a fairly comprehensive process of identifying every asset the authority owns, leases or rents. We are satisfied that we have a comprehensive register. The building you referred to was the Queen Mary building, which involved a compulsory purchase for the Luas line to be developed through the site of St. James's Hospital.
You are quite satisfied that your asset register is up to date?
Mr. Woods
We are, Chairman, yes.
I see that the accounts are accompanied by a certificate from the Comptroller and Auditor General, which states that they are a fair and accurate account, so I will not question that. As regards the income and expenditure for general hospitals, it seems the biggest area of net expenditure is long-term hospital stays and nursing homes, with a net cost of €53 million for the year. Is there a breakdown between long-term stays in hospitals and private nursing homes?
Mr. Woods
The moneys expended on nursing homes or subvention would be recorded separately in the accounts of the area boards and are accumulated here. They are not part of the category of expenditure the Deputy referred to as general hospitals. General hospitals are owned by the boards.
The heading refers to long-term hospital stays in nursing homes.
Mr. Woods
Perhaps I have misunderstood. Was the Deputy referring to private nursing homes?
I presumed there was a subvention when I saw it. There are sets of income and expenditure accounts for different areas. The first one is for the general hospitals. If the information on the breakdown of the three health board areas is too difficult to find now, maybe it can be supplied later.
Mr. Lyons
The difficulty is that the overall figure is given here but the detailed figures would be reflected in the area health board accounts. Perhaps we could supply the committee with the information subsequently.
It is on page 16, but the breakdown is not available in any case. My other questions are similar, so the same problem may arise. Is there a breakdown as to how much of the supplementary welfare budget concerns the supplementary rent allowance and other forms of exceptional need payments?
Mr. Lyons
The supplementary welfare scheme is a regional function of the Northern Area Health Board. I will ask Ms Windle to take that question, Chairman.
Ms Maureen Windle
The analysis is set out on page 19 of the Northern Area Health Board's annual financial statement. It states that the cash allowances for the 12 months to 31 December are €58.7 million.
We probably do not have the northern area accounts. We are working off the regional authority's consolidated accounts.
Ms Windle
The point is that the Northern Area Health Board administers the supplementary welfare account for the whole region.
I see. In terms of breakdown, there would be an argument that rent allowance needs to be transferred to local authorities. How much of this goes through the Eastern Regional Health Authority's books?
Ms Windle
I do not have that information. It is captured on various systems of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I can get that information for the Deputy.
Okay. My last question relates to the leasing of properties of which there are approximately 140 between community care facilities, special hospitals, one acute hospital and some other administrative facilities. What is the cost of leasing accommodation of that nature in a given year?
Mr. Lyons
The specific costs would be reflected in the individual accounts of the three area boards and would not necessarily be reflected here. The clarity required would necessitate a look at the five sets of accounts but we can get that information for the Deputy.
I understand there will be a deficit of approximately €4.8 million at the end of the year — for the year carried into next year. The excess is in brackets and then savings are carried forward. It is in brackets, so was it in excess of expenditure or in excess of income?
Mr. Lyons
Expenditure.
That is what I suspected. There was a shortfall. Did that seriously impact on the authority going forward? If there is a deficit, under legislation, it is the first charge on next year's accounts. Surely the purpose of the legislation was to avoid carrying forward deficits. Earlier on in its career, the authority is running into a deficit.
Mr. Lyons
Deficits are not unusual in the health system given the complexity and the cost pressures that exist both in the base and on an ongoing basis. If we reflect back on the period with which the accounts deal, it essentially reflects the period just after the first year of the setting up of the authority and the three area boards and the eastern health shared services. Coming into 2000, a deficit was inherited from the former Eastern Health Board which was of the order of approximately £12 million, or €16 million. This deficit reflected pressures in the base of the three area boards and quite significant cost pressures which resulted in significant costs being absorbed in 2001 but which still reflected a deficit of a little over €4.8 million at the end of 2001. The Deputy was quite correct when he said carrying over a first charge of this order into the following financial year causes pressures in the system. However, I am happy to say that in the year ending December 2003, all deficits have been cleared from the system.
I acknowledge €4.8 million is a large figure to us but when one looks a figure of €2 billion, it is only a fraction of 1%. I accept it is close enough from that point of view.
To follow on from Deputy Boyle, there are approximately 140 leased properties. When Mr. Lyons comes back with the information in that regard, will he give an indication of what percentage of property the authority owns versus the percentage it is renting or leasing. I would like to know how it compares to general statistics on Departments.
The figure of €1.245 million was paid out by way of lottery grants. I suspect they were paid directly by the subsidiary boards and not by the authority, although the funding came through it. In regard to that payment of €1.245 million of lottery grants in the year under review, does the authority operate the same system as, say, the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism which gives approval and when the expenditure is incurred and invoices and receipts come back, the money is drawn down? Does the authority send out a cheque the day approval is given and hope the job gets done? What mechanism is in place? Is that an approval figure or is it payments made?
Mr. Lyons
The authority is given a lottery allocation from the Department of Health and Children which it in turn disperses among the three area boards by way of a block allocation. A board allocates that funding in accordance with its identified needs on the basis of an agreement with the recipients of the grant. If it helps the committee, I can ask one of the area chiefs to explain the detailed procedures within a health board.
Ms Windle
When we get notification of the allocation of a lottery grant, we advertise it publicly in the media and invite applications along with the specified criteria for which the grant is given. When we get back the applications, we form an interregional committee, because sometimes organisations are spread throughout the three boards, and we prioritise on the basis of deliverables for what has been requested. Suffice it to say, there are always more applications than the level of funding available. The applications are discussed by the boards. They are set out in the categories for which funding would be applied, including care groups. The funding is dispersed following board approval.
That is my concern. The funds are dispersed after approval.
Ms Windle
No. Let me be clear. If it is agreed that a certain organisation will be granted a grant, it is conditional on it sending in the receipts.
An organisation gets approval. Does it have to spend the money and send in the receipts to get the money?
Ms Windle
Yes.
The money is given following submission of receipts. That could be 12 or 18 months later as we know from other cases, although maybe not in this case.
Ms Windle
By the time the funding is distributed across a range of organisations, it is usually quite small. Often organisations would have undertaken the work in progress and because the amount of money would have been so small, they would have been able to bear that level of funding within their normal cashflow. One is normally talking about €10,000 or less per organisation.
Is the board satisfied the money is properly spent and that people do not get money and use it for a purpose other than that stated?
Ms Windle
There is a fairly rigorous process in place in that regard which the Comptroller and Auditor General's office has validated.
On a related point, under section 26, is there accountability for moneys given to bodies or similar groupings? What accountability is in place for moneys dispersed to groups to spend on the board's behalf? Has there been feedback from users on the quality of the service or an inspection of a service by the board when funds have been given to a service provider? Is there a facility under section 26 to carry out an audit?
Ms Windle
There are a number of control arrangements in place for the payment of grants to grant agencies. In the first instance, they would send in their bids at the beginning of the year. For example, we have a database for intellectual disability for which there is a fairly substantial outlay whereby we know the needs of various individuals, what their needs will be in a particular year and how many residential and day places are required, the cost of which we know. We have planning and discussion committees at interagency level. We have ongoing budget reviews, joint management meetings and service reviews at different periods throughout the year. At the end of the year, that is followed by the audited reports and the annual reports being brought back. Year on year, we compare the costs and the rates of pay paid within those organisations with the standard in our services.
Do trained evaluators carry out that work or that type of audit?
Ms Windle
Our finance department, which we have augmented with a number of professional staff, carries out that exercise. We have also augmented general managers in all our community care areas with accounting and human resource people to support that process. As to whether we carry out this work to the standard which would meet the rigour of the Comptroller and Auditor General, I am satisfied that the level of control in place is reasonable.
What value for money audits have been undertaken in any of the programme areas?
Ms Windle
We would not have carried out any formal audits in terms of value for money. However, from the analysis we would have done of our costings we would be aware, for example, that providing certain standards of care at nursing homes costs somewhere in the region of €680 to €700 per week. In our own nursing home areas, the cost would be approximately €1,000. The reason for that is that the board caters for a much higher level of complexity of clients in our long-stay institutions. We compare those types of figures to analyse the position in terms of value for money.
The amount provided in the budget is considerable. The Comptroller and Auditor General carries out value for money reports but, from a business point of view, one would imagine that the board would have an outside evaluator to carry out value for money audits to assess the effectiveness of the scheme, how the money was used and whether end-users obtained the benefits. One would imagine that such a system would be extremely effective.
Mr. Lyons
With the permission of the Chairman, I will refer to evaluation. An important aspect of the allocation of lottery funds is the system of board visits to service providers in the region including services provided by recipients of lottery funding. There is an accountability to the board in respect of the requirements of the recipients and how and if these are being met. That is an important issue in the process of governance in respect of the distribution of lottery funds.
Members will be aware that, under the 1999 legislation, the authority has a statutory function in respect of monitoring and evaluation. Angela Fitzgerald, who is present at the meeting, is the director of monitoring and evaluation. In conjunction with service providers, we carry out regular reviews of expenditure programmes. We have carried out quite a number since our establishment. These have been used as a basis to adapt existing or develop new programmes. If the Chairman requires further details, we would be glad to supply them or I could ask Ms Fitzgerald to refer to them now.
Perhaps we could hear from Ms Fitzgerald.
Ms Angela Fitzgerald
There are a range of areas, which would not be specifically consigned to value for money, covered under the evaluation programme and these include the issues of equity and access. In the first 18 months of the authority's existence, the issue we discussed earlier, namely, the acute system and improving the flow through it, dominated much of the evaluation programme.
When the authority was established in 2000, a comprehensive review of accident and emergency services across the region was carried out. To my knowledge, that was the first time a review of this scale had been carried out. The findings of the review shaped many of the recommendations on the future organisation and delivery of acute accident and emergency services. The authority as a whole carried out the bed capacity review which specifically considered the short and medium-term requirements in terms of bed capacity. Part of that review focused on continuing care requirements.
More recently we have carried out a number of reviews which looked at capacity and efficiency issues. We referred earlier to OPD services. A review was undertaken in 2002 which considered the overall organisation and management of OPD services and also some of the issues to which Mr. Lyons referred earlier. It specifically considered the question of referral pathways from general practitioners into the service through out-patient departments and how these might be improved. It also considered the management and organisation of the internal service and, in particular, the waiting times experienced by people when they presented at out-patient departments. The review also looked at the capacity to discharge people back to their GPs. The chairman made reference to this matter earlier.
We are now involved in a process of implementation of improvements in many of these service areas. On the specific issue of efficiency, a review was carried out in respect of eligibility and the allocation of contract beds. Arising from that, we have managed to effectively shift back towards the use of subvention.
The reviews to which I refer would be directly relevant to this discussion. However, reviews have also been carried out in respect of children, families, mental health, addiction, etc. If the committee requires further details, I will be happy to provide them.
Does the authority monitor staff numbers on a regular basis?
Ms Fitzgerald
The authority as a whole has an employment control requirement which is part of the overall reporting system to the Department. We also monitor salary costs.
What percentage of the overall budget is comprised of staff costs?
Mr. Woods
It varies by agency type but, in broad terms, 70% would be a fair figure. However, the figure for intellectual disability services may be as high as 85%. It depends slightly on the service type but 70% is a good average.
Is there a continuous audit of staff numbers, etc.?
Mr. Woods
Yes.
I wish to refer to something Mr. Lyons said earlier which is relevant to this matter. In the period in question in respect of nursing homes, systems involving contract beds and subvention were in use. What was the cost of these systems and how many individuals were involved? How do these systems relate to the current position?
Mr. Lyons
At the end of December 2001, 730 people were obtaining basic subventions; at the end of December 2002, it was 563; and at the end of November 2003, it was 587.
Were they obtaining basic subventions?
Mr. Lyons
Yes. At the end of December 2001, 628 were in receipt of enhanced subventions; at the end of December 2002 there were 637 in receipt of such subventions; and at the end of November 2003, 761 were receiving them.
I mentioned that we are trying to phase out contract beds. However, in December 2001 there were 1,309 contract beds; in December 2002 there were 1,415; and in November 2003 there were 1,291.
Total expenditure in December 2001 was——
For each or for both?
Mr. Lyons
We can provide a breakdown but the total expenditure in December 2001 was €46.9 million; in December 2002 it was €60.6 million; and for the 11 months to the end of November 2003 it was €57.6 million.
What are the rates of basic and enhanced subventions?
Mr. Lyons
These are prescribed in regulations. They are based on a person's dependency level, which is determined by a consultant geriatrician or a multidisciplinary team. The rate for maximum dependency is €190.50 per week; that for high dependency is €152.40 per week; and that for low dependency is €114.30 per week. Enhanced subventions can be paid depending on a person's individual means, etc. The highest amount that we have paid in that context is €680 per week.
What was the average cost in 2001 of a weekly contract bed?
Mr. Lyons
It is approximately €700 per week. It was £500 in 2001
Is it correct that subvention is means tested while contract beds are not?
Ms Fitzgerald
The contract beds arise in two ways. When somebody has been in receipt of the maximum subvention over a period and reaches a point where the asset is becoming exhausted, through disposal or rental, the board may at its discretion make a decision to give a contract bed. It may arise in a scenario where subvention is paid and then the person moves to a contract. The other circumstance is where there may be a specific need required by the client and a suitable place may not be available in the public system, but the difficulty over the period and the reason guidelines were applied was that the cost of nursing home beds was outstripping the funding available under subvention and the families found it more difficult to meet the cost as a result of which they were more reluctant to avail of private homes. The use of contract beds came into operation prior to the authority's establishment. We have been trying to move the trend back. However, the requirement is to apply the subvention which is subject to means testing.
A contract bed costs €700 a week. Are sufficient beds available?
Mr. Lyons
Sufficient beds are available. The budget determines the level of uptake that the area boards can engage in at any particular point in time. Our strategy since our establishment has been to move away from contract beds and to spread the coverage as widely as possible, but there was a significant equity problem in the contract bed system in that people who could afford to pay for nursing home cover were being allocated a contract bed whereas people who could not afford a nursing home place could not access a contract bed. The subvention scheme, therefore, is designed to achieve better value for money, increase the system's capacity and introduce greater equity into the allocation of nursing home places.
The authority is paying for 1,300 contract beds and is, therefore, a major buyer in the market. Does it pay at a preferential rate?
Mr. Lyons
We engage in bulk buying. We negotiate with the nursing homes to achieve the greatest value for money.
Ms Fitzgerald
Arising from the review mentioned earlier, one of the recommendations was the strengthening of price fixing because, up to then, we had very much been price takers in the market. We can provide the figures which show that the cost of a contract bed has been held largely since the introduction of negotiations by the three boards jointly.
So there is no increase in that area?
The witnesses are saying the limit on the provision of subvention for contract beds is the funding available and that provides 1,300 places. However, hundreds of patients in hospitals cannot be moved because the money is not available under this heading. It costs three times more to keep them in hospital because of bed locking. Is this designed as an unofficial way to block beds because, if these patients were transferred out of hospital, more patients would be admitted to hospital at a faster rate? Does it cost more to block the beds than to move the patients?
Mr. Lyons
There is an issue here beyond the nursing home beds that is being implemented. We received €8.8 million this year in funding for the early discharge initiative, which is designed to target patients within the acute sector and to provide them with tailor-made arrangements for their needs in nursing homes or through support at home. That is a much more efficient and appropriate way of dealing with persons who are inappropriately placed in acute hospitals.
I refer to the lack of primary care services in the region. How many new primary centres were opened there in the past five years?
Mr. Lyons
General practitioner coverage in the northern area health board, in particular, was a problem for us. We are implementing the primary care strategy, which again is part of the equation in dealing with the acute system, and primary care teams are being established in three locations within the region, one in each health board. I refer the question on the number of primary care centres or co-operatives that have been established within the area health boards to the three chief executive areas.
Ms Windle
We opened three in the northern board area at Darndale and Oldtown and undertook a substantial upgrading of the Cabra health centre.
Mr. Donnelly
There are four in my area.
Mr. Gallagher
We opened two. One is the Eastdoc based in St. Vincent's Hospital and the other is DL-doc based in St. Michael's Hospital. We hope to open one shortly in Arklow, County Wicklow.
Another area of concern is improved health promotion and disease prevention. How much of the authority's budget is expended in this area?
Mr. Lyons
Health promotion is a function of services provided under several care groups, including our public health directorate, and we have dedicated health promotion functions in each of three area health boards, but health promotion is going on at primary care level, in the acute hospitals, in mental health services and so on. I am not sure that we can take out a specific figure for health promotion activities that would reflect the range of services provided but, within the budgets of the three area health boards, there would be a figure for the direct provision of health promotion through health promotion directors and so on.
Could Mr. Lyons provide information on health board provision for child care and family support and a report on the authority's plans in this area? What is planned in the overall budget for services for older people and people with disabilities? Mental health services are overlooked. What priority has the authority in this area? How much funding is allocated to hospice care?
Mr. Lyons
Since its inception, the authority, as the commissioning authority, has prioritised on a care group basis. This is how we present the plan. This, in turn, translates into the individual allocations to the 39 providers from whom we commission services on an agreed basis.
Each of the areas alluded to has been a high priority for the authority since its establishment. We face considerable challenges in areas such as child care and mental health. We have moved to developing regional strategies to deal with these issues in conjunction with the three area health boards, which are being implemented and which, in effect, have re-engineered the services to a great extent from crisis intervention and treatment to prevention and early intervention. We will be happy to provide this information.
I feel very strongly about these issues, especially hospice care, mental health care and services for people with disabilities. It is important to get the bigger picture but one must be specific on how much funding is being allocated, including services for older people. The sum of €2.5 billion is a great deal of money. Excluding staff costs, what is being spent on primary care services, child care, services for older people, persons with disabilities, mental health services and hospice care? Health boards should provide a comprehensive range of services. How does the allocation of funding reflect on the accounts?
Patients' private property is referred to in page six of the report. I understand the accounts for these funds are audited by independent auditors. Who are the independent auditors?
I am more interested in elderly psychiatric patients and those who are resident in either hostels or homes funded by health boards and who are, as a result, the direct responsibility of the health boards. How are these patients' allowances accounted for? I will be specific because I am anxious to make comparisons between health boards as to what procedures are in place to protect the rights of patients and the integrity of staff in regard to the handling of these moneys.
I understand that a certain portion of the maintenance allowance is withheld by other health boards and a certain figure is withheld for general keep. Residents are supposed to use the balance to look after themselves. The money is to be spent at their discretion and I understand that, in some health board areas, they are encouraged to save.
Information has emanated recently from hostels or homes funded by health boards or hostels that are the direct responsibility of health boards that the money was used by health board staff to furnish the rooms in which these people stay, either to buy a locker, a wardrobe or whatever. I am trying to establish by way of asking representatives of the health boards whether there is a procedure in place that offers protection to patients from such action and offers similar protection to the integrity of the staff dealing with the matter, or how is the matter dealt with?
The Department of Health and Children has informed me by way of reply to a parliamentary question that it is up to each health board to establish these procedures. On foot of correspondence I have received, I want to establish how the health boards do their business in this area. How are elderly psychiatric patients in receipt of benefit dealt with?
Mr. Donnelly
We do not have the details with us but we will supply them.
Can I have copies?
Mr. Donnelly
Certainly.
Ms Windle
In the past year we reviewed all our policies and procedures regarding patients' property for all locations. We have very clear guidelines for staff on how the accounts are managed and so on. I will be happy to supply the Deputy with the details in respect of our board.
Who specifically control the accounts and how are the funds accessed?
Ms Windle
We do that.
I note the accounts. I thank Mr. Lyons, all the chief executive officers and the team for attending today. It was a long meeting but it was important to go through the accounts. I thank the representatives for their answers.
The committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 22 January 2004.