COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 Jun 2004

2002 Appropriation Accounts and Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Vote 35 — Capital Grants for Sports and Recreational Facilities.

Mr. J. Treacy (Chief Executive, Irish Sports Council) and Mr. P. Furlong(Secretary General, Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism) called and examined.

Chairman

We are dealing with the financial statements for 2002 of the Irish Sports Council and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Vote 35 — capital grants for sports and recreational facilities.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised as follows. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons invited to appear before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the proceedings that the committee considers appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that under Standing Order 156, the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I call on witnesses to introduce themselves.

Mr. John Treacy

Mr. Peter Smyth, secretary, and Ms June Menton, finance officer, Irish Sports Council, are present with me.

Mr. Phil Furlong

Accompanying me from the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism are Mr. Joe Timbs, finance officer; Mr. Con Haugh, assistant secretary, and Mr. Dave Spratt, sports division.

Mr. Dermot Quigley

I am attached to the public expenditure division, Department of Finance.

Chairman

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the 2002 appropriation accounts for the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism, Vote 35 — capital grants for sports and recreational facilities.

Mr. John Purcell

State support for sport in 2002 was sourced from the Vote for the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism. Apart from funding for horse and greyhound racing and the second instalment of the grant to Croke Park for hosting the Special Olympics, provided for under separate headings in the Vote, the main sources of funding are classified by subhead under the title sports and recreation services in the Estimate. After taking account of moneys for the provision and renovation of swimming pools, including the National Aquatic Centre, the remainder of the funding is met from national lottery proceeds and falls into two categories — grants-in-aid to the Irish Sports Council to carry out its mandate and the Vote allocation to meet capital grants for the provision of sports and recreational facilities.

The Irish Sports Council's mandate is to plan and support the development of sport in the State, including strategies to increase participation in sport, as well as anti-doping programmes and research. The council received over €28 million in 2002 to fulfil its mandate. The details are set out in notes 3 and 4 to its accounts. Further details are included in its published annual report for that year. I was in a position to give a clear audit report on the 2002 accounts.

The capital grants programme is managed directly by the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism. Over €61 million was disbursed under this heading in 2002. A full list of recipients, by county, is contained on pages 268 to 281 of the appropriation accounts volume. By far the biggest grant, €18 million, was paid to the GAA towards development costs at Croke Park. The next highest, €1,235,000, was paid to Shamrock Rovers Football Club for the development of its new grounds. My staff reviewed the management of the programme in 2002 and no major issues arose as a result of that work.

Mr. Treacy

As this is the first time I have appeared before the committee, it would be useful for me to briefly sketch the background to the Irish Sports Council. The council was established on 1 July 1999 as the statutory body responsible for the promotion, development and co-ordination of sport. In line with statutory requirements, it prepared its first three year strategy for the period 2000 to 2002 entitled A New Era for Sport which the then Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation approved. The main aims of the strategy were to increase participation, develop ability and achieve world-class success, underpinned by ethical considerations. The council introduced a range of programmes, financial and non-financial, national and local, to contribute towards the achievement of these objectives.

We have worked closely with the almost 70 national governing bodies of sport to help strengthen their organisations to deliver across the spectrum of their activities. Since its establishment, the council has placed great emphasis on strategic planning and the development of capacity and capability within the national governing bodies, particularly in the light of their heavy reliance on volunteers for their activities. During the period 1999 to 2002 it invested approximately €30 million in their work. This allowed them to train and employ coaches, organise training camps, carry out administration and planning, prepare teams for major international events and host competitions.

On participation initiatives, in 2002 the Irish Sports Council provided over €6.5 million for the GAA, IRFU and FAI to develop programmes to encourage and promote greater under age participation in the major field sports while a further €600,000 was allocated for the sport for older people initiative. The council received an allocation of €3 million to begin implementation of its five year high performance strategy which is part of a significant long-term investment programme aimed at improving Ireland's standing in world sport. The strategy is dedicated to the achievement of consistent success by Irish sportspeople at world, European, Olympics and Paralympics level.

The main priorities in 2002 were: building capacity in key agencies, including the appointment of technical and management personnel; making decisions on those sports to be prioritised for financial support; the agreement of performance plans with national governing bodies; the provision of funding for performance directors in priority sports; developing the institute of sport structure, and establishing the Olympics and Paralympics performance committees.

The Irish Sports Council supports individual sportspersons and athletes through the international carding scheme which allows the council to provide a holistic system of support for Ireland's high performance players and athletes. This support comes in the form of direct financial support with access to sports science and medicine services. In 2002 almost €2 million was allocated to over 260 athletes across 23 sports.

The Irish Sports Council sees the creation of local sports partnerships, envisaged by the Government and the social partners in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, as a key delivery mechanism for local sport. These entities are designed to co-ordinate the activities of various interests in sport at local level to ensure local provision is sufficient, efforts are fully co-ordinated and resources are used effectively. By the end of 2002, 12 local sports partnerships had been established. The council's intention is to have a national network of the local sports partnerships in place by the end of its second strategy in 2005.

The Irish Sport Council's strategic objectives are underpinned by its efforts to ensure Irish sport is developed, administered and played at the highest ethical levels. The council's principal mechanisms are the anti-doping programme and the code of ethics and good practice for children's sport. The anti-doping programme has enabled the council to achieve a high level of testing among athletes, both in and out of competition. In 2002 over 800 tests were carried out, 55% of which were carried out out of competition, regarded as the most effective means of testing. The programme has also created an awareness among the sports community of the dangers and penalties of doping and provides an information and education service for athletes and coaches.

The code of ethics and good practice for children's sport was particularly important in that it was the first all-Ireland sports policy document agreed between the Irish Sports Council and the Sports Council for Northern Ireland. It provides guidelines for best practice for sports organisations in promoting a child-centred ethos and communications between young people and the organisations concerned. It was launched in November 2000. Over 40,000 copies of the code have been distributed to clubs and organisations since. An extensive education and training programme was also undertaken through the local sports partnerships targeted at teachers, parents, coaches, sports leaders and, through them, young people playing sport.

In 2002 the Irish Sports Council had a total budget of just over €28 million, over 85% of which was allocated in the form of grants. Almost €8 million went to national governing bodies of sport. The three biggest field sports were provided with €6.5 million to promote greater under age participation. Over €2 million was allocated in grants under the high performance strategy, primarily to those sports identified as having a reasonable chance of success in the Athens Olympic and Paralympic Games. A further €2 million was provided for individual athletes under the international carding scheme, while €1.5 million was allocated to 12 new local sports partnerships. Grants were also provided for the National Coaching and Training Centre, the older people in sport initiative, VECs and other recreational sports organisations. Grants were provided for the Morton Stadium, the University of Limerick 50 metre pool project and the preparations for the Special Olympics in 2003.

The Irish Sports Council incurred further expenditure on the anti-doping programme, waymarked ways, the code of ethics and good practice and the Buntus initiative. At the end of 2002 it employed 24 staff. I have given the committee a brief overview of the council and its activities in 2002 and will be happy to answer any questions.

Chairman

May we publish the statement?

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely.

Chairman

The Irish Sports Council had a budget of €28 million. However, I observe that it has cash in hand of nearly €2 million, which is surprising. Are there no structures in place that could determine the reason such a sum was not drawn down?

Mr. Treacy

We still have the funding because the structures are in place. The national governing bodies have to meet certain criteria before the Irish Sports Council will pay out in the last quarter. As they had not complied with the criteria, the funding remained in the council's accounts. We ask them to make sure they have their tax certificate, hold their AGM and so on. They will not get the funding until such time as all the criteria have been met.

Chairman

The figures were €1.2 million and €1.9 million in 2001 and 2002, respectively. Does Mr. Treacy have the figure for 2003?

Mr. Treacy

The figure was €1.3 million in 2003, mainly for the national governing bodies as well as the carding scheme. In the last two years we have brought forward all grants for the national governing bodies. We make sure we agree the level of funding with them in January. We had to bring back the dates for the larger field sports, in particular, to enable them to run their programmes. If they do not meet all of our criteria, we do not pay out the money.

Chairman

That is good corporate governance practice but when there is an increased surplus, it is certainly——

Mr. Treacy

It was brought down to €1.2 million in 2003.

Chairman

That still leaves a sum of up to €1.5 million. It is important that the criteria are well established to enable those who make applications to draw down funds.

Mr. Treacy

They are well established. The national governing bodies know what they have to do to draw down funding. We make sure all policies and guidelines are followed by them. If they do not meet the criteria set down, they will not get the funding. That is the only way we can do business with them.

Deputy Curran

Whatever Mr. Treacy said resulted in a mass exodus on this side of the table. He is left with me. In spite of this, I welcome him to the meeting.

It is interesting that the Irish Sports Council has been in operation for five years. I am only a Member of Dáil Éireann for two years and note that Mr. Treacy has mentioned that this is the first time representatives of the Irish Sports Council have appeared before the committee. This should be put in context as it is a daunting first experience.

A particular matter arose the last time representatives from the Department were present. A certain line of questioning was pursued with Mr. Furlong who indicated that he did not have direct responsibility, that the Irish Sports Council administered many of the current expenditure programmes for sports organisations. As a result, the committee decided it would look at the accounts of the council. This explains where we are today.

I thank Mr. Treacy for his opening statement. It is a pity he has not been here before because his opening statement and the accounts at which I looked in recent days are revealing. They show the extent of activity in which the council is engaged. It covers local activities, interaction with individual athletes and a whole range of programmes, about which I was fascinated to read. It seems there are many competing organisations and individuals looking for funding. What are the internal criteria used in evaluating them?

Mr. Treacy

That is a fair question. There are about 70 national governing bodies, some of which are small while others are large. Apart from the three main field sports, we have large organisations such as Athletics Ireland, Basketball Ireland and so on. There are also small organisations which would not have significant numbers.

In recent years we have got each organisation to develop a strategy, something the Irish Sports Council put in place when established on a statutory basis. We offer guidelines on strategic planning as, irrespective of size, each organisation is planning for the future. Funding is based on the strategies presented. Organisations must also be recognised as a national governing body of sport. As there is a high level of contact, we have a good knowledge of their requirements. We also monitor their outputs very carefully. In the middle of the year they present us with a review of how they have performed which we follow up again in the new year.

The Irish Sports Council has recognised that the three large field sports have the capacity to increase participation levels. As other organisations may not have the same appeal, the three sports in question are featured on television all the time and can attract people to participate. In 2002 the Government gave the council an extra €3 million to invest in the three organisations. We agreed a programme of activities with the GAA, the FAI, and the IRFU that complemented their own activities, and matched outputs. The IRFU receives more funding than the FAI and the GAA because of a special budgetary measure requiring all funding to promote the game of rugby. The Government gives us this funding and we ensure good administration. We achieve outputs too which is very important.

Deputy Curran

If the organisations do not achieve these outputs annually does the council reduce the funding?

Mr. Treacy

Yes, absolutely, and we have done that in the past. While it may seem bureaucratic we reduce funding if the organisations do not do their paperwork and fail to satisfy us that they have achieved their goals. We tell them we will provide the funding for their strategy and as part of that they set out goals and objectives so we judge them against their own objectives.

Deputy Curran

In his opening statement Mr. Treacy said the council gave the three field sport organisations, GAA, IRFU and FAI, €6.5 million in 2002. How did that break down between the associations?

Mr. Treacy

The IRFU received €3.5 million; the FAI, €1.5 million and the GAA €1.4 million. Those are approximate figures.

Deputy Curran

After his last meeting with us Mr. Furlong forwarded a summary of the Sports Council funding to the committee which showed an increase of 33% for the FAI between 2003 and 2004, from €1.5 million to €2 million. That was a significant percentage increase. Is that level of increase usual?

Mr. Treacy

No. After the World Cup finals in Saipan the FAI asked us to arrange a review of the competition. We appointed an independent chairperson to do that and the Genesis report was produced. The FAI faced many challenges at the time because at the World Cup it was seen as an organisation in disarray. It had to implement the recommendations of the Genesis report. We were in the background watching the developments within the FAI, which embraced the change much to everyone's surprise. Once it adopted the Genesis report, appointed a chief executive and started to make the changes we set up a liaison group to monitor its progress over the past two years. We meet on average every two months and receive progress reports on the implementation of the Genesis report.

At the beginning of 2004 the FAI was finishing its technical development plan which was launched yesterday mapping out the future development of Irish soccer. Members of the committee may have read about it in the newspapers today. We will provide the extra €500,000 to the FAI to implement that plan during 2004. On the basis of the FAI plan and many detailed negotiations we secured the money from Government.

Deputy Curran

Was this just for the implementation of the Genesis report?

Mr. Treacy

Yes, and for implementation of the technical plan too.

Deputy Curran

Was the Genesis report to have been primarily implemented within a year? There were some things to be done immediately.

Mr. Treacy

There were some immediate matters and some long-term issues to be resolved. The FAI has implemented a significant number of those recommendations. It has made considerable progress, including appointing a chief executive which was key to the process, reducing the board size, managing PR and leaks from the association, all of which were important. It has handled these changes fairly well. There are many different angles to the problem, including the high performance aspect. Brian Kerr, the new team manager, has implemented several of the Genesis recommendations too. The pieces are coming together after a great deal of hard work.

Deputy Curran

How long will it be before the implementation of Genesis is complete?

Mr. Treacy

There is an element on the international committee to be completed but the FAI is almost there and we hope by the end of this year most of the report will be implemented.

Deputy Curran

Mr. Furlong gave me a very good break-down of expenditure on specific programmes which is interesting and positive. What sort of audit trail does the council have? On a capital programme it is easy to go out and see the tangible asset that has been delivered, or not, as the case might be, but how are items such as the technical development plan audited, if the council and the FAI each pays a similar amount?

Mr. Treacy

We earmarked funding for FAI programmes within its development plan between 2000 and 2003 and agreed certain performance objectives for it to meet during the year. We sought reviews at mid-term and the end of the year.

Deputy Curran

Can Mr. Treacy give an example of how those objectives are specified?

Mr. Treacy

An example might be the number of children participating in summer camps. That is the easiest one. Much of our funding goes to the regional development offices which do substantial work locally. We are involved too with the local sports partnerships in 16 counties which liaise carefully with the regional development offices. We are rolling out the Buntus programme and because the local sports partnerships are working closely with the FAI we know its impact and that the programme is running in schools. That is another example of tangible evidence.

We were aware of the committee's deliberations on our last visit. The council has an internal audit function and every year we pick several national governing bodies and local sports partnerships to audit. We audited five organisations in 2003. The FAI was not on our list but we put it on the list and I have seen a report from Deloitte & Touche which is satisfied that the moneys we allocated were expended for the purpose for which we gave them. The auditors found a clear audit trail for the moneys we gave and we were satisfied with that.

Deputy Curran

Was this the first time the council did that with regard to the FAI? Was it a random audit chosen from the council's 70 odd governing bodies?

Mr. Treacy

We picked approximately five or six organisations a year.

Deputy Curran

Is this the first time the Irish Sports Council has done this with regard to the Football Association of Ireland? With some 70 governing bodies, has the council performed random audits?

Mr. Treacy

Yes, we picked approximately five or six organisations per year. In 2003 the Irish Rugby Football Union was on the list. The Gaelic Athletic Association was supposed to be on the list in 2004 but, having received the transcript from the committee's last session, we replaced it with the FAI. That work is now complete and we are satisfied that the money we gave to the FAI has been spent in the manner we intended.

Deputy Curran

Some of the key appointments recommended in the Genesis report included that of director of performance; director of football operations; director of marketing and communications; and director of finance and administration. The report went further than merely naming these positions; it stipulated that specific job descriptions were required. Has this aspect of the report been carried through?

Mr. Treacy

Some aspects have been implemented.

Deputy Curran

How many of the four positions mentioned have been filled?

Mr. Treacy

The FAI has a financial manager——

Deputy Curran

Is that the director of finance and administration? I am referring specifically to the four directors for whom specific job descriptions were highlighted in the Genesis report.

Mr. Treacy

The FAI has a financial officer, Mr. Peter Buckley, who reports to an internal audit committee which, in turn, reports to the board of the FAI. We are satisfied that financial operations in the FAI meet our requirements.

Deputy Curran

That is not what I am asking. In the increased funding for the FAI an element was specifically based on the implementation of the key objectives of the Genesis report. The appointment of the four directors is a key component. A finance officer is not sufficient as the Genesis report went much further in its stipulation of a detailed job description for the director of finance and administration. The questions are whether the four job descriptions were drawn up and whether those positions were subsequently filled. Does Mr. Treacy have the answer?

Mr. Treacy

The development of job descriptions for these four positions is a matter for the FAI, not the Irish Sports Council. The director of international football is seen as Mr. Brian Kerr, manager of the Republic of Ireland football team. That would be the FAI's interpretation——

Deputy Curran

I do not want to split hairs but the increase in funding for the FAI was specifically based on the implementation of the Genesis report recommendations. As Mr. Treacy observed, the Irish Sports Council had 11 meetings with the FAI to monitor their roll-out. The recommendations regarding the appointment of four directors are specific; it is not sufficient to simply retitle an existing finance officer as director of finance and administration. Were the job descriptions ever formulated and have the positions been filled?

Mr. Treacy

The job descriptions are a matter for the FAI which is evaluating the need for these four positions. The director of football performance is seen as Mr. Kerr, the international manager. Mr. Pat Costello has been hired to perform the work of the director of marketing and communications. The position of director of finance and administration has not yet been filled.

Deputy Curran

Am I to understand that the role of international manager goes beyond coaching the football team? Is he a director within the FAI within the meaning of the Genesis report?

Mr. Treacy

His role is much broader than merely that of management of the team. He has a watching brief with regard to the international programme of the under age teams.

Deputy Curran

I appreciate that but reiterate that four positions were stipulated in the Genesis report, for which job descriptions should have been formulated. I do not know if this has been done. Those positions should have been filled rather than current positions being expanded. The aim of the Genesis report was to move away from this. I appreciate that Mr. Treacy may not be able to answer this as it is primarily a matter for the FAI.

Mr. Treacy

Mr. Packie Bonner has undertaken the role of director of football operations. His main objective is to implement the technical development plan. The director of marketing and communications is Mr. Costello while the director of performance is seen as Mr. Kerr. The director of finance and administration has not yet been appointed but the CEO has a strong background in finance.

Deputy Curran

I appreciate that but raise this issue because the positions of the four directors were highlighted in the briefing sent to us by Mr. Furlong. The Irish Sports Council was certainly involved in the implementation of the Genesis report and the increased funding for the FAI. In the FAI projected costs for 2004, €600,000 is set aside for appointments as per the Genesis report, €300,000 of which is provided by the Irish Sports Council. That is why I refer to those four positions. Since the council has agreed to provide this funding, it must wish to have certain performance criteria satisfied, notwithstanding the independent status of the FAI.

Mr. Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Curran

Since €300,000 in funding is being provided, it should not be a question of a person already in position assuming extra responsibility.

Mr. Treacy

As I said, Mr. Costello has recently been appointed director of marketing and communications. Mr. Bonner is director of football operations and will be leading the technical development plan. The director of finance and administration has not yet been appointed. Mr. Kerr is director of performance, as currently interpreted. His appointment to this position was made subsequent to the events in Saipan and the Genesis report.

Deputy Curran

Perhaps Mr. Treacy could consult us after the meeting. There were four specific positions but incumbents seem to have evolved into some of them, in conflict with the spirit of the Genesis report.

Mr. Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Curran

That is the concern. The Genesis report was specific — four directors with full job descriptions. The Irish Sports Council has granted €300,000 to the FAI to fill these positions and I am not satisfied that implementation has been carried through in a structured way. It seems to be more a case of existing roles being expanded. That is the concern in terms of public funding — we are talking about a substantial sum — but I am open to correction on this point.

Mr. Treacy

For 2004 the Irish Sports Council has, in consultation with the FAI, mapped out the funding allocation for specific programmes. The FAI will provide a detailed breakdown of the programme objectives and indicate whether they are being attained.

Deputy Curran

I have one final question. It relates to a procedural matter and I am not sure if the delegation from the Irish Sports Council will be able to answer it. Looking at the various programmes funded under the technical plan for 2003, the plan seems to have been based on a calendar year.

Mr. Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Curran

Between the contributions of the Irish Sports Council and the FAI, total expenditure came to €5.7 million. I also looked at the previous set of published accounts for the FAI to March 2003 and it was difficult, externally, to match the figures. When I added everything, they came to slightly more than €4 million. I appreciate that we are dealing with two different periods but what procedures are in place to overcome this discrepancy? Is there any suggestion that it might be more beneficial for various organisations to structure their accounts on a calendar year basis?

Mr. Treacy

We have worked with the FAI to move to a calendar year basis which is obviously helpful from the point of view of the Irish Sports Council. As regards the monitoring of funding given by us to the FAI, Deloitte & Touche has completed a review of the procedure used. Over the next year we will meet the FAI regularly to ensure funding is allocated as intended. We have mapped out clearly how funding is to be spent in 2004.

Deputy Curran

From the committee's point of view, it is not possible to match the accounts for the two years. However, the Irish Sports Council has carried out an audit and comparable figures will be available in the future.

Deputy Rabbitte

There are no notes from the Comptroller and Auditor General. I greatly admire the work of the Irish Sports Council and the accounts seem to be in order.

Perhaps in my absence my colleague, Deputy Curran, posed the question I wish to ask. On the information given by the Irish Sports Council in respect of the unfinished Shamrock Rovers Football Club stadium in Tallaght, in which a considerable sum has been invested, the stadium has been lying idle uncompleted for three or four years, perhaps more. This is a great pity because it is ideal sporting infrastructure. A 6,000-7,000 seater stadium would be immensely valuable. It would also provide a lifeline for the club in an environment where young people are sports mad. One could envisage them within a short number of years growing into the hoops jersey offering great hope for the future.

Is an initiative contemplated to finish the job? Is there a possible partnership? Could the local authority be induced to become a partner? What role could the Irish Sports Council play in the circumstances?

Mr. Treacy

It is best to refer that question to Mr. Furlong, Secretary General, Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism which has responsibility for the capital programme. The Irish Sports Council has responsibility for providing current funding for organisations.

Mr. Furlong

I will answer the Deputy's question directly. An investment intended to secure the continuation of a club synonymous with soccer in this country has slowed to the point where there is no progress. Like Deputy Rabbitte, this is a source of considerable regret.

The Department grant-aided the stadium on a phased basis over the three years, 2000-02. Our funding has been drawn down in full, with the exception of retention moneys. However, the club does not have the ability to continue and complete the work from its own resources. We have been in regular contact with it to find out what its plans are. However, we are experiencing considerable difficulty in seeking clarity on the matter. Recognising that our ultimate objective is to have the project completed, in the last few months we have engaged with the chief executive of the FAI to see what support it can provide to generate the funding needed to enable Shamrock Rovers finish the project.

In the last week I spoke to the county manager of South Dublin County Council. From my conversation with him and his colleagues, it is clear they also want to see the project completed. It is the intention of departmental officials to sit down with county council officials in the coming weeks to see what we can do to generate the necessary momentum to advance the project.

In keeping with the undertaking I gave to Deputy Curran the last time I was here, I will make sure the committee is kept fully abreast of developments as progress is achieved. I can offer assurances that there is an intention to see the project completed rather than walk away and rely on a legal claim to enable us to recover a grant already paid.

Deputy Rabbitte

I do not want to tease out the matter further if discussions are about to take place. However, I want to advert to the last point made by Mr. Furlong. I am not sure it would be hugely productive to seek to regain the State's investment through legal action or otherwise. The only sensible step is to complete the facility. I do not wish to get into the nuts and bolts of the ownership structure but it is a facility that is badly needed in the area. Given that we have been helpful — properly so — to other sports, it would be a great shame if a partnership could not be put in place to finish the project. Mr. Furlong is aware that the stadium has been lying idle and many despair that any initiative will be taken. I sincerely hope the discussions are productive.

I would like to ask about the outstanding moneys due to Croke Park. Where does that issue stand and what is the attitude of the Department?

Mr. Furlong

Ministers have held discussions with the association which have not yet been completed. There was an understanding the meetings would continue over the next few months. I do not think we have reached the endgame with regard to this matter as there are outstanding issues. While the GAA has made it clear that it believes it had a commitment from the Government, the Minister has explained that commitment was tied to the stadium development at Abbotstown and has, therefore, lapsed. However, he has also made it clear that the Government wishes to be supportive and will engage with the GAA on that part of the investment that has yet to be funded.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is it holding up completion of the stadium?

Mr. Furlong

No, it is not. Work on completion of the final phase, the Hill 16 development, is proceeding. The intention is to have the stadium substantially completed in time for this year's All-Ireland series. This will obviously leave the association with a significant burden of debt; according to one estimate, in the region of €100 million, if no further Government support is forthcoming. Discussions with the GAA and the Government will continue against that background. There is no definite outcome yet.

Deputy Rabbitte

Is the Department involved in the discussions concerning the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road?

Mr. Furlong

Yes. There is a steering group to oversee the general development which the Minister has asked me to chair. It comprises representatives of the Office of Public Works, my Department, the FAI and the IRFU. The group has met three or four times and will meet again this afternoon. It is well on course and the general idea was that construction would get under way in mid-2006, would take 29 months to complete and so reach its target date of end 2008. I am happy that both parties are engaged. We hope to be in a position soon to make a public statement on the progress to date.

Deputy Curran

I welcome Mr. Furlong's comments on wishing to see the Shamrock Rovers project complete because those of us who live near the area see the skeleton of it as we drive by. Under the capital programme the grant was given to Shamrock Rovers through a company named Sloane Park butanother company, Mulden Internationalhas the lease on the land. What is the relationship, if any, between those two?

Mr. Furlong

I may be tripped up on the detail of this but the lease by South Dublin County Council was given to Mulden which says it sub-let to Sloane Park, which in turn gave a licence to Branvard which is Shamrock Rovers. We have talked to our legal advisers who say that notwithstanding that structure the grant given is secured. We do not want to travel that route.

Deputy Curran

I appreciate that.

Mr. Furlong

Our discussions with the county council will take into account all aspects of the matter. I do not wish to be drawn any further on that point. The council and the Department regard completion of the project as very important and we are trying to find the most cost-effective way to achieve that.

Deputy Curran

Does Mr. Furlong know whether the beneficial owners of those three companies is the same?

Mr. Furlong

To the best of my knowledge they are different. There may be one or two between Mulden and Sloane but I am not sure.

Deputy Curran

Are they different entities?

Mr. Furlong

I do not have the information with me so I cannot confirm that.

Deputy Curran

Very well but can Mr. Furlong keep us informed?

Mr. Furlong

I will keep the committee informed on developments, particularly if our discussions with the county council produce the outcome we all want, namely, a way to complete the project.

Deputy Curran

Does Mr. Furlong have a time scale for that?

Mr. Furlong

It will happen as soon as we can agree on what needs to be done with the county council. Then we must arrange financial support and the objective is to do that as soon as possible. There is no lack of political or administrative will in our Department to bring this project to fruition but we must do so in a way that is cost-effective for everyone.

Chairman

What funds if any have been allocated to the capital programme for the League of Ireland grounds, to bring them up to the licensed standard? If funds were allocated was any money ring-fenced for that investment?

Mr. Furlong

Yes, €3 million has been earmarked for that. The Department has been in discussions with the football association which is liaising with it on behalf of the clubs to clarify some outstanding matters connected with grants given to some League of Ireland clubs in the past. The FAI is at the point of providing all the information we require and we hope we can then engage with the clubs in question, particularly those playing in European competition this year to provide or release some of that €3 million.

Chairman

Was that €3 million for 2003 and 2004?

Mr. Furlong

It was for 2003.

Chairman

Is it not disappointing to hear in 2004 that the fund has not been distributed?

Mr. Furlong

Our concern was to ensure that there was a viable basis in place to support funding. There is little point in the Department allocating funding to a club which is not in a position to complete its plan or has not complied with other aspects of the licensing process, such as getting the accounts in order or filing accounts with the Companies Office and so on. These are the issues we are trying to tie up with the football association.

Chairman

Has the Department identified the clubs it proposes to fund?

Mr. Furlong

The emphasis is on the League of Ireland clubs involved in European competition. We have a difficulty with one. Shelbourne is regarded as one of the most progressive clubs in the Eircom League, and rightly so but it has declared publicly that it intends to move to a new location. That makes it difficult for us to provide significant funding for development at Tolka Park to enable UEFA licensing requirements to be met. We are also discussing this with the FAI.

Chairman

Will the allocation be made in the next few weeks or months?

Mr. Furlong

That is the intention.

Chairman

In weeks?

Mr. Furlong

Yes.

Deputy Connaughton

Like my colleagues I welcome the Sports Council and Mr. Treacy. I am an ardent admirer of what he is doing and has done. It is rare that we meet a Department that gets a clean bill of health from the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is how Departments should be run as far as possible.

It would be too flippant to ask how many gold medals we are likely to win in the Olympic Games but I am interested in the international carding scheme. Could Mr. Treacy explain how the council identifies the young athlete with potential? It is an excellent scheme that works in many other countries and the public would like to know how athletes are picked at an early stage. Identifying potential talent is important because a young person may be good under a certain age but later may lose interest or talent. How can the council identify these people to the extent that public money is rightly invested in them to ensure they reach their full potential? Otherwise some of the money can go astray for reasons about which one can do nothing.

Mr. Treacy

We have prioritised sports that can deliver at world, European, Olympic and Paralympic levels to be part of the carding scheme. Within each sport we have held detailed negotiations to agree criteria. We fund junior, international and world class athletes development, based on them achieving performance objectives. These are specific objectives on a sport by sport basis. If an athlete reaches a European or World Championship qualifying junior standard in athletics, he or she is then automatically on the carding scheme. The athlete will receive a certain level of funding, access to sport science and medicine facilities and other back-ups while he or she is developing. As performances increase and get better, the athlete will move through different stages.

For example, if an athlete is in the top ten in the world, he or she will be placed on the world class stage which gives them funding of €30,000, plus sports science and medicine and back-up facilities. With the Athens enhancement programme on the back of the high performance programme, we put programmes in place with the governing bodies. When Sam Lynch won his world championship event, he described it well when he said it was the first year he never had to worry about anything only rowing. The council is trying to achieve success for our athletes with a tangible support system.

As well as providing funding for carding, which has been around for some years, the Athens enhancement programme has been introduced to support the athletes. In the past, giving money to athletes but not the capacity to the governing bodies to support the athletes was criticised. Now, the council is giving support to the governing bodies, particularly by putting performance directors and international coaches in place, to ensure time is given to the athletes as they are developing. It is based on specific international criteria. If an athlete is progressing, he or she will receive support all the way. It is a long-term programme as the council is considering the Beijing Olympic Games and beyond. We must be realistic as to what our athletes will achieve at the Athens Olympic Games.

Deputy Connaughton

I appreciate it must be difficult to pick the people for the system. Is there much discontent from people in the constituent organisations who are by-passed?

Mr. Treacy

The subjectivity has been taken out of the process and the scheme is now based on objective criteria. In essence, if an athlete performs, whether its on the track, court or elsewhere, he or she gets the funding. The subjective aspect of the selection has been removed. It is not whether an athlete knows someone or whatever. If an athlete gives a good performance, support and funding is given.

Deputy Connaughton

I understand that approximately 800 anti-doping tests were taken in 2002. Was that figure increased in 2003?

Mr. Treacy

Approximately 850 tests were carried out last year.

Deputy Connaughton

In an ideal world where all athletes could be tested, how many would be?

Mr. Treacy

That is a good question. In 1999, when the Irish Sports Council was established, we started from a zero base. There was much catching up to be done because Ireland had signed up the Council of Europe convention in 1992. The board made getting the programme up and running a number one priority. This was done in a short period of time with all governing bodies signed up to the programme. The anti-doping committee has supported the council's work. The world anti-doping agency was formed some years ago on the back of governments', national governing bodies' and international organisations' agreement to fight doping on a united front rather than in a piecemeal effort. The agency is based in Montreal and leads the world fight against doping. Much of what is read in the newspapers on the matter is the result of its good work. This year, the council, with the national governing bodies is implementing a new world anti-doping code which will also be in place throughout the world. The Irish council has developed its own version of the code which the world anti-doping agency is using as a model of good practice for other countries.

The council carries out approximately 800 tests annually. Not every sport will be selected for doping tests but high risk sports are targeted. Some sports are not a risk while others are. The council divides the number of tests among sports and prioritises certain ones. Athletics and cycling are high risk sports that are tested frequently. The carding pool of 200 athletes will also be targeted. A world class athlete will be targeted by the council through the course of a year. All athletes going to this year's Olympic Games will certainly be tested a number of times.

Some sporting bodies ask the council to do more tests than have been allocated to them. For example, the IRFU would pay the council to carry out additional tests. A substantial number of tests on field sports are carried out for the IRFU, the FAI and the GAA. For the latter, 44 tests were carried out last year. This was a cultural change for the body and this year out-of-competition testing will also be carried out for it. For the pool of athletes of a country of our size, a world class athlete will be tested.

Deputy Connaughton

Given the numbers mentioned, there must be many athletes who feel their turn will never come.

Mr. Treacy

A carded and world class athlete will be tested many times.

Deputy Connaughton

What about people not in that category?

Mr. Treacy

For GAA county teams, there are substantial numbers of athletes involved, considering there are 32 counties, both hurling and football. Testing in this case is random but the council will target the teams coming through the championships. However, a county team that will not win anything has less chance of being tested. The council is limited in the number of tests carried out but our level of testing is higher than other countries.

Deputy Connaughton

How many operators are on the testing programme?

Mr. Treacy

The council has an anti-doping unit with a manager and three staff. Our testing programme is contracted out to IDTM Limited because it has the capability to test outside of the country as well as inside. Every athlete on the carding scheme would give their whereabouts on a quarterly basis to the council, which is linked to carding funding. Funding is withheld if an athlete does not give his or her whereabouts. An Irish athlete based in South Africa will be tested and IDTM has the capability to do this. Analyses are done in a London laboratory and the results are given to the council.

Deputy Connaughton

How much did this cost last year?

Mr. Treacy

The budget for anti-doping is approximately €900,000.

Deputy Connaughton

Considering that the council has €28 million at its disposal, what is needed to run it from an administrative point of view?

Mr. Treacy

I like to think we are lean and mean.

Deputy Connaughton

This is a lean and mean committee.

Mr. Treacy

Our administration costs a little more than €1 million. When we started we had a staff of 18 and we now have 24. We try to keep the organisation as mean and lean as possible and we run a tight ship. Some 85% of our funding goes in grant aid to organisations. Some of our programmes are also very important. The council does not need 50 people. We feel we need more resources in terms of personnel but essentially we see ourselves as "enablers". We are there to support the organisations, to challenge them and help develop their plans and strategies, as well as developing the programmes. The level of funding is very important and we very much appreciate that it has risen substantially in recent years. Sport is now funded in the way it should be.

Deputy Connaughton

I see that €6.5 million was made available last year, for youth work by the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU. I have no problem with that because I know where some of the money is spent, but some people say to me that because of the size of those organisations they should fund that youth work from their own resources.

Mr. Treacy

They do. If we put €1 into a sports governing body programme, I can guarantee that body is spending another €2 on the same programme. The council targets those three national governing bodies for sport for young people because from our policy point of view it is very important to get young people involved in sport. They are the three organisations which have the capacity to deliver for us. In the old days we could have relied on schools and priests and so on to do much of that work but in recent years the governing bodies have taken over responsibility for it. The GAA, the IRFU and the FAI have to put people into the schools to support the teachers, to form teams, to get the youngsters out. The situation has changed significantly in recent years. The only way sports will deliver on young people's involvement is to put people on the ground to support the clubs and supply coaching.

Deputy Connaughton

The programme I know best, involving the GAA, is working extremely well. Regarding young people's involvement in sport in the future, that programme is very important. I assume it is the council's intention to continue funding it.

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely. As long as we are funded, we will do our best to fund that programme. We consider it essential to fund the three large organisations. While people may say they have plenty of money of their own, each organisation is challenged in terms of its resources. The IRFU in particular is challenged in terms of budget, as are the FAI and GAA. They are investing much of their own resources into the programmes we fund with them.

Deputy Connaughton

The GAA is the first to build a new stadium so someone had to pay for that. I wish Mr. Treacy well.

Chairman

Regarding anti-doping, how many people of the 841 tested have failed?

Mr. Treacy

There were ten in the first year of the programme. The current figure is about six. That bears comparison to international standards. The percentage figure is about 1%. The anti-doping programme is a major deterrent and we do our utmost in that regard, but a figure of 1% is perhaps acceptable.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I welcome Mr. Treacy. It is clear that the accounts of the Irish Sports Council are in order and he is to be congratulated on that. What happened the ten people who failed the test? What mechanism is there in terms of banning them from the track or the field of play? What impositions are there and how are they applied?

Mr. Treacy

In the first year I suppose we could have expected to have a higher percentage of failure rates. Those failure rates are passed on to the sports governing bodies who, under their rules and regulations, have responsibilities for imposing sanctions. Following hearings, they apply the appropriate sanctions. The athlete is represented through a hearing process and the governing body then passes judgment.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I asked the question because Bord na gCon appeared before this committee recently. It too had a doping policy but it took the board a year and a half before it succeeded in having any action taken against only half of those who failed doping tests. What time scale is involved for the governing bodies in taking action against such people?

Mr. Treacy

We monitor the situation very closely and follow matters up with the governing bodies each month. Some cases would take quite some time. Mostly it is the athletes involved rather than the governing bodies who delay the process. In our annual report we state the situation on positive tests. If cases are pending we note that and report on them the following year. The governing bodies must satisfy us that they have implemented the programme. When we started out we ran into some problems in boxing when the anti-doping policy was not being implemented. We subsequently suspended boxing funding for a period.

The council takes this role very seriously. Sport is based on ethics and fair play. If we do not weed out drugs in sport we will not have sport at all.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Can I go back to the lean and mean? The Irish Sports Council provides operational funding. How does it measure how well that funding is spent? If one looks at an organisation such as the GAA or the FAI, it is notable how many positions are being created. Have we too many personnel in these organisations? As part of the council's remit, does it look at how well these organisations are run? Does it carry out quantitative tests or analyses in organisations regarding the numbers of staff and the level of emphasis they place on coaching and getting young people actively involved in sport rather than indulging in the sitting-back mentality that permeates many of the organisations?

Mr. Treacy

I could answer that question by citing examples. We have a high level of activity in terms of dealing on a one to one basis with sports governing bodies. We know most of the governing bodies very well and the progress being made. A governing body will occasionally adopt a strategy and seek funding from us. Swim Ireland is an example. During 2003 we became aware that it was not implementing the agreed strategy and various issues arose. We had begun funding programmes for it and found that plans were not being implemented. The consequence was that we suspended its funding in 2003, because Swim Ireland was not implementing the strategy and doing what it said it would do. We monitor the governing bodies carefully. If a governing body is not performing it will not get funding from us.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I am sorry I missed some of the presentation because of the vote in the Dáil, but I thought I heard Mr. Treacy mention in the context of the FAI that the council had Deloitte & Touche in to conduct an audit and that it came back satisfied that everything was above board. Is it a fact that the company that it sent in to audit was also the auditor for the FAI?

Mr. Treacy

That is true.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

That is strange, and surely not desirable.

Mr. Treacy

Deloitte & Touche are our internal auditors, but they are also the auditors of the FAI. In essence, our auditing is conducted by different people. We are satisfied in the council that, if Deloitte & Touche is carrying out an audit, it will do so in a very effective way. We were quite satisfied, and the audits were in any case carried out by different people.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I thought it ironic that the same company should be——

Mr. Treacy

Ireland is a small nation.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

However, it is unusual. Perhaps I might ask another question on the FAI. Mr. Treacy saw the headlines regarding a director of the FAI who stepped down and then went public with a series of questions regarding its operation. As someone dispensing funding to such an organisation, where does Mr. Treacy see his remit? Is it hands-off, or would he immediately wish to go in and investigate on foot of the very serious allegations regarding the organisation?

Mr. Treacy

The Sports Council makes a judgment regarding whether the matter is internal or one to which we should pay particular attention. If it is a matter of internal politics — and we all know there is a great deal of politics in sport — we leave them to their own devices, and one hopes they will sort it out as best they can. We do not interfere, since they are autonomous organisations. However, if there is a question regarding programmes that we are funding, we pay attention to it. This committee is a good example. Questions were raised on the FAI, and our immediate response was to commission a Deloitte & Touche report. The result was positive. We keep a very close eye on activities and organisations, but ultimately we have to make a judgment on whether it is an internal political matter or one to which we must pay particular attention.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Mr. Treacy is saying that, in that case, the council thought it an internal political matter that did not warrant investigation from its side.

Mr. Treacy

A matter was raised regarding finances in the FAI, and we immediately carried out an investigation.

Deputy Curran

I thank Mr. Treacy and the Sports Council for coming in today. They were very well briefed and prepared. It was nice to see an issue raised as a result of something that happened to be in the newspaper the evening before the Committee of Public Accounts met the Department. The issue raised was serious, and the Sports Council took appropriate action rather than letting it linger. An internal audit was carried out, and that was the appropriate response.

I was pleased to hear Mr. Treacy mention two things of a positive nature, one being that the FAI has now changed the end of its financial year, something that will make it much easier to conduct an audit trail from our point of view. Very fortunately, the FAI's technical plan was launched yesterday, so between the time of our last meeting and today many positive things have happened. From the committee's point of view, it is gratifying to be able to highlight the issues and see them addressed. Issues are often not addressed as promptly, and I compliment the council, since those things did not simply happen by themselves. While the committee might highlight issues, it takes various people in different departments to respond to them, and in this case the response was effective and timely. It was a pleasure to have positive responses.

I am not saying there are no issues outstanding, but on those issues raised the council has done its homework and read what has gone on here; they were dealt with effectively. I would not like anyone to feel that I was knocking the FAI. There were issues, and I am glad to see that they have responded to them.

Chairman

I would like to be associated with those comments. Mr. Treacy is talking about €27 million on the sports side and more than €61 million on the capital side. The uptake is €90 million, and that is a considerable investment on the part of the taxpayer. It is very reassuring to know that, in the day to day management of such a representative body, the people most in need are getting the best benefits. The criteria were very much based on performance. Could mentoring be given to someone who did not perform in his or her first race but showed promise? Is there an assessment? It would be very unfair if everything were adjudicated on the basis of someone winning the 100 metres in order to qualify for a grant.

Mr. Treacy

It is a fair way of doing it in that, if someone gets to qualifying standard for a European or world junior championship, that person is automatically on the scheme. If someone does not get it in May but gets it in June, that person immediately comes on to the scheme, so he or she is not penalised for not getting in at the start of the year. If someone achieves that standard during the year, that person automatically comes on to the scheme with us and receives pro rata funding. That is the best way.

Chairman

Is any funding given to encourage sport in schools and spot talent? There are certain families which may not have the money to invest in their children's opportunities.

Mr. Treacy

We invest a considerable amount in developing the coaching structures.

Chairman

And mentoring?

Mr. Treacy

And mentoring, very much so.

Chairman

I have a final question regarding the draw-down of capital funding. I hear of many difficulties around the country where people are unable to meet the criteria owing to the necessity of securing matching funds and the reassessment of applications because of a lack of financial institutions ready to provide that collateral cash or backing money. The difficulty might be an inability to raise the matching funding. Does the council find that a problem? Are there many applications where communities are unable to draw down the funding allocated?

Mr. Furlong

There will be circumstances in which agencies or communities allocated money are slow in drawing it down, one reason being that they may not have the necessary local contribution in place. However, I should point out that over the past five to six years, more than 4,200 projects at local community or regional level throughout the island have been supported. Most of them have had no problems in accessing funding, and we certainly never hand back money to the Department of Finance from that programme. There is always a steady demand. It may be that some agencies are premature in their applications and that they come in looking for support before they have done the preliminary work to ensure that they qualify, i.e. that they have raised a local contribution. The requirements are not especially demanding. There is an acknowledgement that if one is in a disadvantaged area, one will get an 80% grant rather than 70% as is the case for the generality. Inevitably there will be people who cannot raise what is required, but that is not happening on a scale significant enough to impair the impact of the sports capital programme.

Chairman

There can be a great deal of unfairness with parity of applications. The level of information coming forward to sporting bodies is such that there should be an information session in every county, putting the criteria into the public domain. People can often misunderstand. That would detach it from politics, with which it is connected in one sense. Bringing it into the public domain and clearly establishing the rules on how communities can avail of the funding, explaining the exact criteria to agents and design teams would be good, since they can misunderstand them in many cases. People contact my office who have an application in, and sometimes they are not fully aware of the points system that applies.

Mr. Furlong

We have made considerable progress in dealing with that. On the website we have information on criteria and how to go about making an application. Our freedom of information handbook also provides such information.

The criteria are spelt out in detail on the guidelines which accompany the application form. Once the application form is lodged a process begins beyond which it would be inappropriate for the Department to make contact with a particular community or club, as it might be seen to be getting preferential treatment relative to others. However, when the allocations are announced, needless to say those who get money are delighted, but they cannot access it until they meet all of the conditions. Those who do not are offered the opportunity of meeting the Department to discuss why the application did not measure up. Depending on staff resources, we hope that prior to the closing date for applications under the annual scheme, some sort of information point would be created within the Department for people who need it and want to know how matters are assessed. They will be able to access this information before they lodge their applications. Once the application is lodged we have to stand back and deal with it in accordance with the published criteria.

Chairman

I am delighted to hear of that improvement because the scheme has not changed dramatically over many years since its introduction in the manner in which evaluation assessments are carried out. I welcome very much the fact that it is on the web page, but the more information that is available for what is a considerable investment of €61 million right around the country the better. It is important to have as much transparency in its administration as possible. I am not saying it is not transparent. However, this aspect should be apparent to the public. This would be of benefit to all those people who have given voluntarily of their time to clubs and societies to enhance their own communities.

I thank Mr. Furlong, Mr. Treacy and all the Department's staff who have attended the committee. That concludes today's business.

The committee adjourned at 1.23 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 1 July, 2004.