COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 5 Oct 2004

Irish Sports Council: Presentation.

Mr. J. Purcell (An tÁrd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Mr. J. Treacy (Chief Executive, Irish Sports Council) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. John Treacy and Mr. Peter Smyth from the Irish Sports Council. The purpose of this short meeting is to engage in a brief exchange of views.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised of the following. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons invited to appear before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the proceedings that the committee considers appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that under Standing Order 156, the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I invite Mr. Treacy, chief executive of the Irish Sports Council, to introduce his colleague.

Mr. John Treacy

He is Mr. Peter Smyth, secretary of the council.

Deputy Curran

I welcome Mr. Treacy back to the committee and would like to sum up where we are with regard to the Genesis report and the Football Association of Ireland, FAI. The report was published, I think, in November 2002 and subsequently adopted at an AGM of the FAI. Approximately one year ago, in 2003, the Irish Sports Council and the FAI were in negotiations and additional funding was secured from the council by the FAI on full implementation of the report.

The last time Mr. Treacy was here the committee looked at the appointment of key directors in some detail. This was deemed a critical issue. From a timing point of view, this was to be done over an initial six month period. When Mr. Treacy left that day, he agreed to communicate with the committee by way of correspondence as to the exact status of the issue. It is with regard to that correspondence that he is here today to provide us with an update. Specifically, we will be discussing his letter in which he states that in March 2004, as part of the overall allocation to the FAI, the council approved an amount of €300,000 for the implementation of the outstanding Genesis report recommendations, including the filling of the four directors' posts, a matter about which we questioned him in detail the last time he came before the committee. I suggested to him that incumbents in the FAI had evolved into these four positions and that this was in conflict with the spirit of the report. He agreed with this suggestion. He also indicated to the committee that the director of performance was Mr. Brian Kerr, that the director of football operations was Mr. Packie Bonner and that the director of marketing and communications was Mr. Pat Costello. He further said the director of finance and administration had not been appointed but that the chief executive officer had a strong background in finance. That was where we left off in the discussions. Who gave Mr. Treacy that list of directors' names?

Mr. Treacy

That information probably would have been in my head. Funding for implementation of the Genesis report was only made available in 2004. Any positions that needed to be filled were being funded for the first time by the Irish Sports Council in 2004.

When the Genesis report was launched, the FAI hired a number of individuals. It needed to hire people to fill key positions, one of whom was Mr. Kerr, the international manager; another was Mr. Bonner, the technical director, and the third was Mr. Costello. They assumed certain roles, as outlined in my letter. However, as the Deputy said, this was not in keeping with the spirit of the report. I agree with him. Mr. Kerr raised a number of issues about performance. Mr. Bonner raised issues about the technical aspects of grassroots sport while Mr. Costello raised issues about communication. I hope I have clarified matters in my letter to the committee. They assumed certain roles within the organisation. It is the Irish Sports Council's view that those positions need to be filled.

Deputy Curran

To clarify Mr. Treacy's position the last time he appeared before the committee, the response he gave about the director of performance was inaccurate.

Mr. Treacy

They assumed certain roles within the organisation.

Deputy Curran

Mr. Kerr is not the director.

Mr. Treacy

It forms part of the function. It is the same with Mr. Bonner. The role of director of football operations is seen as having two parts — grassroots development, for which Mr. Bonner is mainly responsible, and the development of football in Ireland. That is not a role he fulfils.

Deputy Curran

According to the Genesis report, the role of the director of football operations is to specifically manage the domestic game in Ireland. I wish to clarify this matter. In reality, the original positions and the names Mr. Treacy assigned to them, while some of the functions might have been carried out, did not relate to the positions intended in the Genesis report.

Mr. Treacy

I agree.

Deputy Curran

Mr. Treacy must bring us up to date. The positions were to be specific; they were not intended to evolve. What we are trying to avoid is a situation where people continue in the old way or fall into old habits. There were to be specific job descriptions and the positions filled in a proper manner. The State was to contribute €300,000 per annum through the Irish Sports Council.

Mr. Treacy

We met the FAI last night. We received a proposal from the FAI regarding the four positions. Overall, the Irish Sports Council would be disappointed with the proposals put forward. We do not believe they are in keeping with the spirit of the Genesis report and we made that position clear to the FAI. We have asked them to reconsider them.

The FAI is agreeing to proceed with the director of performance, who would work alongside Brian Kerr. That is a fundamental proposal that needs to be implemented and we are glad the FAI has decided to go down that road. Engagement with Brian Kerr and his team is part of that and I have been informed by the FAI that it has been done. I have not seen any job description yet, but if the FAI states that it will do it, I am confident that it will.

The FAI clearly feels that Pat Bonner will fill a big part of the role of director of football operations. It indicated to me today that it will hire someone in 2005 to work alongside Mr. Bonner in football operations such as the Eircom league. We are not happy with that. We think it should happen sooner and that a clear job description should be put in place. Clearly, that person needs to work closely with Mr. Bonner as he is charge of the development of grassroots football in Ireland.

The FAI indicated that Mr. Pat Costello is the director of corporate affairs and that Mr. Tadhg O'Halloran will be employed as director of business operations. Mr. Costello fulfils the corporate affairs function and deals with the media and so on. Mr. O'Halloran deals with the human resource issues, which was seen in the Genesis report as being part of the finance and administration element. Sometimes it is very hard to get a combination of finance and human resources in the same position. We are happy with those two appointments and the view of the Irish Sports Council is that they will do a good job.

However, we are not happy with the FAI proposal for the director of finance. Its proposal is to promote from within the organisation but our view is that it is a new position. The director of finance is a critical role in any organisation and our view is that it should be advertised with a clear job description and that interviews should be carried out for it. We have made it clearly known to the FAI that we are not happy with it. That is essentially where we are at present.

Deputy Curran

While Mr. Treacy has expressed satisfaction with some aspects, we would view it as a fairly clear change from Genesis and a dilution of what was intended. Some might argue that it is merely a question of creating vacancies appropriate to people who are currently in those positions, rather than tackling the fundamental issues that Genesis addressed. Members of the committee are not looking favourably on it.

The additional funding was given specifically to fund those four positions as outlined in Genesis. What is the status of that funding?

Mr. Treacy

Can I answer the question regarding the performance and football operations?

Deputy Curran

I accept that part.

Mr. Treacy

We think that if those two pieces are put together and they work hand in hand with Pat Bonner and Brian Kerr, then we will be satisfied. The difficulty is with the finance part. We have allocated 75% of the grant to the FAI. We do that to all the national governing bodies of sport. If we are not happy, we——

Deputy Curran

May I interrupt? Is that 75% across all programmes? The total allocation was €2 million so the Irish Sports Council has given the FAI €1.5 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Treacy

Yes. We have €500,000 remaining in our account. If we are not happy we have the option of not funding the remaining 25%. That would be a matter for the board of the Irish Sports Council to review.

Deputy Curran

Effectively, as we are drawing towards the close of 2004, the FAI is unlikely to see all if any of that money.

Mr. Treacy

That is correct.

Deputy Curran

I want to ask a couple of general questions. They relate to the committee trying to determine how the programmes are being delivered. All the funding for the FAI went specifically to a variety of programmes. One of the things that interested me related to its summer camps. The camps seem to get funding in different ways. They get funding directly from the Irish Sports Council, they get indirect funding as the regional officers involved are directly funded by the council, as well as funding by the 16,000 people who participated in them. Most summer camps run at a profit and not a loss. Why is the Irish Sports Council involved in funding this programme if it is a profitable exercise?

Mr. Treacy

I would not be able to give a specific answer now. We provided 75% funding to support the programme. We provided funding as many young people will participate in that programme.

Deputy Curran

They are paying for it. The individual participants are paying €70 or €80.

Mr. Treacy

I can only assume that we are subsidising it in some way. The kids are probably not paying the full amount. I can clarify that for the Deputy. I do not have the answer in my head.

Deputy Curran

Mr. Treacy can answer my final question bluntly. We are concerned as a committee that the programmes that are paid for are delivered. At our last meeting with him we asked Mr. Treacy in some detail how he knows if this is happening. He stated:

The council has an internal audit function and every year we pick several national governing bodies and local sports partnerships to audit. We audited five organisations in 2003. The FAI was not on the list, but were put on it. We have seen the report from Deloitte & Touche, which is satisfied that the moneys we allocated were expended for the purposes for which we gave them.

Is it possible to furnish the committee with a copy of the report?

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely.

Deputy Curran

Thank you.

Chairman

What is the total funding per annum by the Irish Sports Council to the FAI?

Mr. Treacy

It was €2 million in 2004.

Chairman

What is the projection for next year? Is it lower or higher than that figure?

Mr. Treacy

It depends on the budget we receive. We evaluate the proposals submitted by sporting organisations and if they perform exceptionally well during the course of the year and are implementing their strategy successfully, we try to increase their funding. However, we tend to reduce funding if an organisation is not delivering on the goals and aspirations it set for itself.

Chairman

Does Mr. Treacy consider that the job specifications for the role of director of finance and administration play a significantly critical role in the FAI?

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely. Senior personnel at finance and administrative level who will carry out their functions in a professional manner are critical in terms of the FAI going forward. In essence, the role of directors of finance and administration is much greater than what the FAI has in place.

Chairman

Is the role of the individual directors of communications, marketing and performance not equally important?

Mr. Treacy

They are important, but in terms of corporate finance and risk management, the role of the director of finance is very important, particularly when State funding is being invested in the organisation. We believe the role of the director of finance is more important.

Chairman

Is it not astonishing that the Irish Sports Council was not in partnership with the FAI in drawing up the job specification for the roles of director of finance, administration, performance when one considers that the Irish Sports Council is giving the FAI up to €300,000 for those critical posts?

Mr Treacy

I am not sure what question the Chairman is asking.

Chairman

A sum of money was allocated for those four posts, so why is the Irish Sports Council agreeing to give the funding without specifying the type of job and the role of the person to be employed?

Mr. Treacy

We allocate the funding at the beginning of the year and it is up to the organisation to implement what we have agreed to. We fund programmes that have not begun or are just beginning as many need the funds to kick-start the activity. We monitor the situation closely.

Chairman

I note that €500,000 is being withheld from the FAI. Is it the intention to hold back on that funding until the recommendations of the Genesis report are implemented to the satisfaction of all?

Mr. Treacy

It is for the board of the Irish Sports Council to make that decision. Clearly the council is not happy with the current position in the FAI but we hope it will come back with other proposals which are satisfactory. However, if it does not, the Irish Sports Council can exercise that option.

Deputy Connaughton

Let us return to the Genesis report on the FAI. As chief executive of the Irish Sports Council is the implementation of Genesis report binding on the FAI?

Mr. Treacy

The Genesis report is essentially an FAI report and has been passed by the council of the FAI. Clearly as it is accepted by the FAI council, it is FAI policy.

Deputy Connaughton

In other words, the FAI bought into the Genesis report.

Mr. Treacy

The FAI bought into the Genesis report.

Deputy Connaughton

In other words, the FAI accepted the recommendations of the Genesis report.

Mr. Treacy

Yes, it has.

Deputy Connaughton

Given the controversy surrounding the FAI, why would it put itself in a position to lose State funding by not adhering to the Genesis report, which I understood to be FAI Gospel?

Mr. Treacy

I do not know. It is a cause of unease among people on the Irish Sports Council. The FAI has accepted the Genesis report as its Gospel. We strongly believe it should be implemented. As Deputy Curran stated at our last meeting, the FAI should implement its policy in the spirit of the Genesis report. I cannot answer that question because I do not know the answer.

Deputy Connaughton

I understand that the Genesis report recommended that the position of director in the four specified categories would be publicly advertised, however, that would not mean that a suitable person in the FAI would not get the position.

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely. I agree with that

Deputy Connaughton

Given, that the FAI does not want to do that, what does that say?

Mr. Treacy

It is a cause of concern to the Irish Sports Council. We met with the FAI late last night and are evaluating the matter today. The Irish Sports Council will be considering it in detail at its next meeting on 15 October 2004. I strongly urge the FAI to reconsider its position and I hope it will do so.

Deputy Connaughton

It appears the Irish Sports Council is happy with the position of two of the four directors.

Mr. Treacy

The council is happy with the assurance from the FAI that it will proceed with advertising the position of director of performance.

Deputy Connaughton

Will that person work with Mr. Brian Kerr?

Mr. Treacy

That person would work very closely with Mr. Brian Kerr.

Deputy Connaughton

What relationship would that person have with the new director of international manager?

Mr. Treacy

The person would have a very close working relationship because they must work closely together.

Deputy Connaughton

Who would be likely to be the top gun?

Mr. Treacy

I am not sure, however, Mr. Brian Kerr has a very strong personality. I imagine they would work side by side and there would not be a top gun.

Deputy Connaughton

Has the job description for that position been formulated?

Mr. Treacy

Not yet, but the Irish Sports Council has had detailed discussions on that issue with the chief executive of the FAI and would hope it would happen fairly quickly.

Deputy Connaughton

Will the director of football operations have a similar working relationship with Mr. Packie Bonnar?

Mr. Treacy

Mr. Packie Bonnar undertakes a substantial role in the FAI in terms of development and implementation of the technical plan, which is most of the grassroots work in the FAI. The director of football operations would work side by side. A large part of that role would involve promoting and marketing the Eircom League. It is envisaged that the two of them would work closely together.

Deputy Connaughton

Is Mr. Costello the director of corporate affairs?

Mr. Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Connaughton

Has Mr. Costello responsibility for human resources also?

Mr. Treacy

No. It is Mr. Taidgh O'Halloran who is responsible for human resources in the FAI

Deputy Connaughton

What is the role of the director with responsibility for that area in the Genesis report?

Mr. Treacy

The director of communications will deal with the PR of the organisation, with corporate affairs and companies. He will deal with public and private bodies and the Government.

Deputy Connaughton

It would appear the FAI is very slow to advertise and open up competition for these positions.

Mr. Treacy

Up to this point, the FAI has done a good job in terms of implementing the Genesis report. It has made some good appointments. Reorganisation is always difficult and sometimes takes longer than expected. The Irish Sports Council has provided the funding and needs to be satisfied about the positions being filled. It is vitally important this is done now. The machine sometimes works slowly but the Irish Sports Council hopes it will work more quickly.

Deputy Connaughton

If the recommendations of the Genesis report are not implemented will the Irish Sports Council put a stop to the funding of €300,000?

Mr. Treacy

The Irish Sports Council has a very strong record of taking that type of action when it is needed. It has happened in the past. The council has an excellent board, chaired by the experienced Mr. Pat O'Neill, a former chief executive of Avenmore who has experience of being a former financial manager, secretary and chief executive of that organisation. He guides us very well.

Deputy Curran

On a previous occasion when Mr. Treacy appeared before the committee he mentioned there was a regular liaison group between the Irish Sports Council and the FAI to oversee the implementation of the Genesis report. Is that continuing?

Mr. Treacy

Yes, it is.

Deputy Curran

How often does it meet?

Mr. Treacy

It meets approximately every two months.

Deputy Curran

The Irish Sports Council and the FAI met last night but, to put it mildly, it does not seem to have gone well. There were very different opinions on the direction of the organisation. Was it unclear to the FAI that the council would consider withdrawing funding if it did not implement the Genesis report in full? Is it aware of that?

Mr. Treacy

The FAI was made very aware that the council had serious concerns. It is a matter for the board of the council to consider it when it meets on 15 October 2004.

Deputy Curran

Is the FAI aware that as a consequence of its failure to implement the Genesis report recommendations, it could lose its funding?

Mr. Treacy

Absolutely. The council provides the funding but if the FAI does not fulfil its role we cannot provide the funding. It is as simple as that.

Deputy Dennehy

In general is the Genesis report is being implemented?

Mr. Treacy

We made a number of points. Key appointments are being made. The technical development plan is excellent and is being implemented. Those types of initiatives are taking the organisation forward in a meaningful way. That is a core piece of work in ensuring that young people participate and get the right coaching and guidance. The regional development office is working extremely well in terms of the development of the game. We are happy with the technical aspects and the grassroots developments.

Deputy Dennehy

Effectively, the difficulty arises in respect of the four directorships. I would have thought that the position of director of finance would present the least difficulty to the FAI. Is there a danger of creating a difficulty in the working relationship between the director of performance and Mr. Brian Kerr and the director of football operations and the role of Mr. Packie Bonnar? The Irish international team is relatively successful. From your involvement in other areas, such as the Olympic council, where there has been internal conflict, is there a fear in this instance of creating more conflict? We have seen what happened in Real Madrid where the manager had to walk and in Manchester United, when people were not sure who was running the club.

Mr. Treacy

I hope not. The two directors must work very closely with Mr. Packie Bonnar and Mr. Brian Kerr and I think that would happen. They would need clear roles, objectives and lines of divisions. If they are directed by a chief executive it will work very well.

Deputy Dennehy

I presume it would be open to Packie Bonnar to apply for and succeed to the position of director of football operations.

Mr. Treacy

It would be open to internal and external candidates.

Deputy Dennehy

I was surprised to see that part of the brief for the chief executive of the FAI is to manage PR and stop leaks from the organisation. How successful has he been in that regard?

Mr. Treacy

The FAI has been very successful. It was a constant problem within the FAI, but thankfully it is beginning to cease. Positive steps have been taken in that regard.

The FAI has done many good things and we need to build on it. I would hate if the difficulty with the four positions stopped the progress that has been made because the Irish Sport Council is very supportive of them. We need to continue to support them. I hope we will not run into difficulties in terms of these four positions.

Deputy Dennehy

It might be an idea to invite someone from the league to give a talk. On the question of the directors of finance and administration, I agree with the point made by Deputy Curran and accepted by the Irish Sports Council. The finance function will be crucially important in the future. I am glad the Irish Sports Council is holding out on the director of finance because it is the business management of the FAI.

Mr. Treacy

: I agree.

Deputy Boyle

Most of the ground has already been covered. On the direct relationship that the Irish Sports Council has with the FAI, I presume the remit of the Irish Sports Council is to encourage greater activity in sports and greater interests on a wider level, and that any money given to FAI would be based on those two principles? It was mentioned that the FAI would have received €2 million in the last allocation. Does the largely voluntary structure and officers in the FAI organisation represent a problem to the council in allocating large sums of public money?

Mr. Treacy

There are 70 national governing bodies of sport. All of the organisations are built on a voluntary basis as the essence of sport is based on the efforts of the volunteers. The Irish Sports Council should be always grateful for this and acknowledge it. We should never lose sense of the voluntary effort made by people in organisations who give their time freely. We need to applaud it and say, as often as we can that we appreciate the efforts they make.

If good corporate governance is in place within any sporting organisation, there should be no issue in allocating State funding. This is something on which the sports council works with the national governing bodies, in terms of corporate guidance. Mr. Peter Smyth, who is beside me, helps out many of the governing bodies in terms of guidance on corporate governance. It is something about which we on the council feel strongly.

Deputy Boyle

I would largely agree with that. Would the sports council see itself as having a role in helping ongoing funding and support, in terms of training of volunteers in issues of corporate governance?

Mr. Treacy

Yes, we do that. Mr. Smyth organised an all-day session for the board of Swim Ireland on Saturday, and it went very well. Those are the type of initiatives which we initiate with governing bodies. It is the type of work, which we can do with organisations, that is very meaningful for them in carrying out their business, directing boards to carry out board business rather than getting bogged down on detailed operation issues. Those are the types of guidance that we do offer the governing bodies.

Deputy Boyle

I would also be interested in Mr. Treacy's view of the type of wider influence the sports council can play, in terms of furthering its goals of interest and participation in organisations like the FAI. I noted that some of the money seems to have been directed into the area of summer camps, which increase activity among some younger age groups. Would there be similar indicative funding for different gender involvement, because the FAI deals with young women as much as men, and would the funding the sports council gives an organisation like the FAI vary in accordance with the age ranges concerned?

Mr. Treacy

We give money, particularly for participation, to the three larger field sports organisations, namely, the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI. The main purpose of the money we direct to those organisations is to increase participation by young people so the funding programmes we put in place with those organisations are almost all directed towards getting young people involved in the sport. These three large organisations have the capacity and the capability of delivering on the participation piece of our policy for us so we direct a substantial amount of funding to organisations in terms of increasing participation.

Deputy Boyle

Are those programmes targeted as much for women as for men?

Mr. Treacy

They would be targeted for boys and girls.

Deputy Boyle

On the question of interest and participation, would the sports council have influence over an organisation like the FAI when it makes a policy or commercial decision that has an impact on the resources of younger people involving themselves in sports, for instance, by changing the international strip every so often with the resulting expense on families and young people? Does Mr. Treacy have an opinion on whether the sports council should have such influence?

Mr. Treacy

We would not interfere with the workings of a national organisation. It is a commercial reality that organisations must generate as much income as possible. However, speaking as a father of a young lad who plays and is interested in soccer we get real value for money out of the soccer jersey because he never takes it off.

Deputy Boyle

He is probably still using the singlet from the Los Angeles Olympics.

Chairman

That concludes our business. I thank Mr. Treacy and Mr. Smyth for attending. Mr. Treacy, you might keep us briefed on the matter on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Treacy

I will do that.

Chairman

We are very grateful to you for attending today.

Mr. Treacy

Thank you, Chairman.

The committee went into private session at 3.25 p.m. and adjourned at 4.35 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 7 October 2004.