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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 9 Dec 2004

Chapter 4.3 — Procurement Procedures in Dublin Castle.

Members' and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross examine witnesses.

For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript with the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this provision in the new legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision within Standing Order 156 that the committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Mr. Seán Benton

I am accompanied by Mr. David Byres, commissioner, Mr. Liam Basquille, head of facilities management unit, Mr. Joe Farrell, accountant and Mr. Tony Smyth, director of engineering services.

Will the officials from the Department of Finance please introduce themselves?

Mr. Dermot Quigley

I am a principal officer in the public expenditure division in charge of the Office of Public Works Vote and I am accompanied by Mr. Jim Deane from the procurement area of the Department of Finance.

I invite Mr. Purcell to introduce chapter 4.3.

Mr. Purcell

Do you wish to take chapter 4.3 first as distinct from resuming on chapter 4.1?

If you are prepared to make remarks relevant to chapter 4.1 I suggest we take the two together. Chapters 4.1 and 4.3 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read:

River Nore (Kilkenny City) Drainage Scheme Background

Very severe flooding occurred in many parts of the country in 1994 and 1995 with considerable damage to homes, businesses, and infrastructure. The Office of Public Works (OPW) was required by Government Decision of 7 March 1995 to take the lead role in responding to this. The Arterial Drainage (Amendment) Act was passed in 1995. The OPW drew up a list of over 200 locations around the country where there was a known flood risk. A Government Decision of 14 March 1995 approved a list of nine areas which should receive priority in terms of flood relief works. Kilkenny City was one of these.

Kilkenny City has a history of flooding associated with the high water levels in the River Nore and its tributary the Bregagh that joins the Nore at Kilkenny City. Flooding occurs most years and significant floods were experienced in 1990, 1995 and 2000. Following representations from Kilkenny Corporation and Kilkenny County Council, OPW commissioned a firm to undertake a study in 1995 on the urban flooding in the Kilkenny City area. The study included the re-examination of a preliminary report that the same firm had carried out for the county council in 1986. The consultants were also asked to draw up preliminary design options to alleviate the problems identified.

A separate company was also appointed in 1995 to carry out site investigations. It was evident early on in the scheme that numeric (computer) modelling was an inadequate method of dealing with the complexities of the river in Kilkenny, due to the interaction of the bridges and weirs in the City. In order to increase the accuracy of the design, it was decided to commission a physical model of the river stretch through the City. This was carried out in 1996 by a UK company.

Initial Scheme (€13.08 million)

A number of potential solutions were identified and were presented to the local authorities and the preferred option was chosen in July 1998. This consisted of a combination of river widening and deepening, flood walls, embankments, and associated drainage works. The proposed scheme met the relevant economic and environmental criteria. The scheme was designed to provide protection against the 1 in 100 year flood — in other words a flood of such extent that it has a 1% probability of occurrence in any year. This is the OPW standard for schemes in urban areas and is the standard applied in many other countries also.

With the approval of the Department of Finance the scheme was placed on Public Exhibition in July 1999 and unanimously approved by Kilkenny County Council and Kilkenny Corporation. Sanction was obtained from the Department of Finance in December 1999 to proceed with the scheme following the Exhibition at an estimated cost of €13.08 million.

Given the estimated cost of the scheme at this stage it was clear that the engineering consultants' fees would exceed the relevant EU threshold. As well as that, the first consultants appointed had been given a limited commission in the first place. A tender competition was held in accordance with the EU Directives and as a result of this a new firm of consultants was appointed in December 1999 to review the existing Outline Design, prepare Detailed Design tender documents for appointment of a contractor, and supervise the contract on site.

Detailed Design Estimate (€41.9 million)

The consultants completed a detailed appraisal based on the original specifications. The revised estimate put the cost of the project at €41.9 million in August 2000.

OPW was not prepared to accept the revised cost as it was a significant increase on the approved project budget. The consultants were instructed to prepare a report on alternative forms of construction with the objective of bringing the estimated project cost closer to the original project budget (€13.08 million). In particular, alternative types of retaining structures were to be considered for all areas of the works.

Revised Design Estimate (€24.38 million)

In November 2000 a revised project specification was submitted and sanction was received from the Department of Finance to proceed with the revised scheme for a maximum project budget expenditure of €24.38 million.

New Estimate (€34.8 million)

Tenders were invited from five companies in March 2001 to carry out the construction contract works. The five firms had previously been short listed from a list of eleven firms who had replied to an EU wide advertisement for the project. The accepted tender was approximately 25% above the revised specification costs approved in November 2000. The project was submitted to the Department of Finance at a cost of €34.8 million and approved in June 2001. The main contractor was appointed on 17 July 2001 and work commenced in August 2001.

Table 27 analyses the changes in the cost constituents as the project progressed.

Table 27

€m

€m

€m

€m

Construction

10.3

37.0

18.07

22.5

Design team fees

1.2

4.1

2.07

3.1

Archaeology

0.63

0.65

5.1

Compensation

0.77

1.3

Other items

0.95

0.8

2.82

2.8

Total

13.08

41.9

24.38

34.8

Current Estimate of Completion (€47.8 million)

In August 2003 following a review of the project, a revised estimate was submitted for approval which put the cost of completion at almost €48 million. The increase in the final estimated cost was attributed to

·Payments to the main contractor for delays and down-time

·Price Variation Clause buyout

·Provision for compensation claims

·Costs associated with the removal of contaminated soil

·Additional professional fees

·Costs of ancillary remedial and stabilisation works.

As I was concerned at the significant cost and time overruns of the scheme I posed a series of questions to the Accounting Officer.

Accounting Officer's Response

Why did the initial estimate turn out to be so unrealistic?

OPW recognises that it is not acceptable that the cost of a scheme can increase at the rate that it has in this case. It should be pointed out that Kilkenny is the first large urban flood relief scheme carried out in this country and, as such, there was no precedent to have regard to when assessing risks. The contract was complex in that it had to be framed around very stringent environmental considerations — archaeology and fisheries in particular. The practical effects of this on the ground are difficult to predict until work is in progress. Environmental considerations meant that work could only take place in the riverbed between the months of July and October. Weather conditions occasionally shortened this period even more.

As well as the difficulties posed by these factors the following specific issues have contributed to the cost increase.

·Inadequacies in the initial design of structures and consequent post-contract changes and modifications to these designs resulting in delays and additional costs

·Unfavourable ground conditions that could not have been anticipated; the presence of rock in the riverbed at levels that had not been anticipated

·Delays and down-time due to noise interference and damage to properties and infrastructure, the extent of which could not have been anticipated

·Delays and additional costs arising from the contamination of the riverbed with PCBs (chlorinated compounds)

·The higher than expected costs arising from archaeology and the delays and additional costs incurred by the contractor as a result

·Costs arising from the diversion of services that had not been mapped and consequently not provided for in the scheme.

What was the basis of the downward revision of the estimated cost of the scheme in November 2000?

The initial meeting of the Cost Control committee for the project took place in July 2000. It was emphasised at this meeting that any adverse developments leading to unforeseen cost increases should be reported to the Committee as early as possible. OPW's consultant engineers were represented at this meeting and they pointed out that the findings of the detailed site investigations proceeding at this time were indicating findings different and more complex to those indicated by the information that was available at outline design stage. The consultants were asked to prepare a report on these findings, outlining the impact on costs. This report was received by OPW in August 2000 and its main findings related to the type of structures proposed at outline design stage for the construction of flood walls.

In October 2000, on OPW instructions, the consultants presented a report on the alternative types of structures. Each area of the works had been considered and an alternative design comprising a combination of structures was proposed. This is the design now under construction in Kilkenny.

The downward revision of the estimated cost of the scheme was initiated by OPW in response to its concerns over the estimated costs of the scheme following revisions to the design brought about by technical concerns.

Why did the €24.38 million estimate increase to €34.8 million?

The increase was due mainly to the need to extend the works to three years to facilitate a substantially increased archaeological work requirement, thus incurring continuing overhead costs over an extended period and a general rise in the annual movement of construction costs and tender costs (estimated at 10% and 12% per annum respectively).

What factors gave rise to the increase in construction costs?

In engaging a contractor to carry out the construction stage of the River Nore (Kilkenny City) Drainage Scheme, OPW used the Institution of Engineers of Ireland (IEI) Standard Form of Construction Contract.

The standard IEI contract is conducted on a measure and value basis. Unknowns or risks such as ground conditions, bad weather, project design revisions, quantity change/increases and delays are measured and valued during the contract and added to the final contract cost.

The use of this contract for civil engineering works by State bodies was Government policy at the time, as agreed with the construction industry. Variations on this contract are also on a measure and value basis.

It is highly unlikely, at the time of going to tender, that any contractor would have negotiated a fixed price on a contract of three years duration. The Construction Industry Federation (CIF) strenuously objects to fixing prices at tender stage for contracts in excess of 12 months. Nor are there any procedures in place at present for quantifying the many risks associated with a civil engineering contract of this nature.

OPW paid €2.9 million to the contractor for a Price Variation Clause (PVC) buy out. The contract itself provides for a lump sum buy-out post tender of price increases in labour and materials arising during construction. If this option is not exercised then increases are paid for as they arise during the course of the contract. Where OPW considers that the price negotiated with the contractor for the buy-out of the PVC is reasonable, it is the practice to proceed in this way. The benefit to the contracting authority of a PVC buy-out is the removal of a risk from the contract, with the potential for a saving on the overall contract amount depending on subsequent rates of inflation.

In this case, the initial approach in relation to PVC buy-out was made by the contractor. The OPW's consultants carried out an estimation of the total final payment that might be due to the contractor under the Conditions of Contract. Their estimate indicated that the contractor's offer of €2.9 million plus VAT for PVC buy-out was reasonable given the prevailing and predicted economic conditions in the construction industry.

It is relevant to note that Government policy in this area has now changed. In May 2004, the Government approved in principle, the introduction of lump sum fixed price contracts tendered on a competitive basis as the norm, along with appropriate arrangements to eliminate undefined design details covered by provisional sums and provisional quantities in tender documents on all types of contracts. It is, however, not yet certain when these new arrangements will come into force as they are subject to discussion between the Department of Finance and the construction industry.

How were the additional professional fees incurred?

In procuring the required consultancy services OPW was fully in accordance with public procurement guidelines and regulations. The agreements in place between the State and the professional bodies at that time included the use of a percentage fee.

It should be noted that increases in cost in this form of contract are substantially due to the measure and value provisions rather than a failure to control costs i.e. the volume of work comprehended by the contract turns out to be greater than estimated for reasons that could not have been anticipated or in circumstances that could not have been measured in advance. As the works comprehended in the contract increase in this way, so the legal obligation on the consultant to supervise the works increases. In this way the consultant undertakes additional work for which payment is due.

In May 2004, the Government approved in principle, the introduction of competitive tendering on a fixed price lump sum basis as the norm for procuring construction consultancy services. Also approved was the introduction of Standard Conditions of Engagement for construction consultants with specific provisions to carry more risk and to discourage design mistakes through the introduction of penalties.

It is not clear, however, when these changes will be implemented as they are subject to discussion between the Department of Finance and the relevant professional bodies.

Why were compensation and archaeological costs so badly underestimated?

Compensation

A sum of €1,269,738 was included in the budget at Tender Stage for compensation. This figure was a best estimate, based on experience garnered on previous schemes. Once work commenced on site, however, it became apparent that this figure was likely to be inadequate. The number of third parties affected by the scheme, with associated property issues; the difficulties and disruption caused by the works to individuals and businesses alike are significantly higher than anything experienced on previous schemes and are a reflection of the fact that this is the first scheme to be carried out in a large urban/city centre area.

The information available subsequent to the commencement of site work indicated that it would be prudent to increase the provision for compensation. It must be emphasised, however, that the increased provision merely reflects the best estimate that can be made at this point in time. Matters may arise in the final stages of the contract that give cause to review this estimate. OPW typically does not begin to accept claims until a scheme has been completed and in the normal course, claims can often take several years to resolve. It is likely, therefore, that the final cost of compensation will not be known for several years and it could be up to 12 months after work has been completed before any extrapolation can be made based on actual claims received.

The estimation of compensation in this case is intuitive rather than scientific. However, agreement and settlement of compensation payments is based on standard practice in valuation and assessment of compensation. There is provision for Arbitration as is the norm in this area. Legislation also provides that the benefit to be accrued from the scheme can be offset against any claim for damages. In a number of instances in Kilkenny where it is known that substantial claims will be submitted (one has been received to date) OPW has already begun the process of assembling information on disturbance and interference in order to be in a position to address the claims.

Archaeology

A sum of €630,000 was included in the original project budget for archaeology. This represented 6% of the construction cost element of the budget as estimated at that time. The budget for archaeology on previous flood relief and Arterial Drainage projects was between 5% to 10% of the construction costs. In estimating for archaeology, OPW also considered the number of sites identified in the Environmental Impact Statement and felt that it would be prudent to provide 6%.

There was no information available that pointed to the level of finds and significant archaeological structures that subsequently emerged as the scheme progressed. Water levels were artificially lowered, and the riverbed, bridges, and weirs were revealed for detailed examination by archaeologists for the first time.

As the project progressed, it became obvious that the number of archaeological finds was much greater than had been estimated as was the extent of the monitoring required. The long history of settlement in Kilkenny and the central position of the River Nore in the city has resulted in a very high number of finds of artefacts and significant structures in the river.

Underwater archaeology has also been more extensive than was anticipated at the outset of the scheme due to the number of structures of interest which had to be examined in-situ, before their removal. All of this had a consequential effect on the contract in that the contract period was extended to allow for increased monitoring and investigation and claims for delays and disruption have arisen from unanticipated finds of artefacts and structures.

The updated project budget contains an estimated figure of €4.82 million for Archaeology. The majority of high risk areas have already been excavated, although one area of potential sensitivity is scheduled for works in the summer of 2004. OPW's archaeological consultants state that the risk of a major discovery in the remaining areas of the scheme is low.

In light of the experience in Kilkenny have changes been made to OPW's approach to flood relief work?

The scheme has remained extremely cost beneficial and OPW has obtained approval from the Department of Finance at all relevant stages. However, OPW recognised some time ago that this situation is not sustainable. There are 14 other schemes in urban areas throughout the country at various stages of planning that have a combined estimated cost of approximately €300 million. It would be completely unacceptable that the cost of these schemes could increase at a rate similar to Kilkenny. In April 2003, OPW carried out a review of the approach to these schemes. This resulted in the approval of a revised approach in September 2003.

In future, OPW will adopt a risk management approach to flood relief schemes. This approach includes consideration of the feasibility of a phased implementation of schemes i.e. schemes will be broken down into smaller, more manageable phases and each phase carried out separately. In some cases this may facilitate work being done directly by OPW and/or the relevant local authority and the local authority will be expected to take a much greater role in managing schemes. This methodology has worked extremely well in carrying out work on the Tolka River in Dublin and Meath in the last two years. In addition, use will be made of innovative new technologies and steps will be taken to reduce or eliminate cost risks in relation to dredging, archaeological, and environmental mitigation measures. Issues such as the potential of flood warning systems, flood hazard mapping, and enhanced maintenance programmes, all of which can reduce the need for structural works, will be considered.

This new approach is entirely consistent with methodologies now being developed and applied in the UK and mainland Europe. Since October 2003, OPW began to apply this methodology in the case of the three schemes in the Flood Relief Work Programme that are most advanced in planning — Carlow Town, Clonmel, and Waterford City, and these are now being progressed on this basis. This changed approach has been adopted in recognition of the need to take action swiftly while continuing to make progress in planning the schemes.

A Flood Policy Review Group was established by the Minister of State with responsibility for OPW in November 2002. The experience with the Kilkenny scheme as well as a recognition of the need to review the OPW flood relief work programme in the context of an overall State policy were factors in this decision. The Review Group completed its work in December 2003 and its Report is now with the Department of Finance awaiting submission to Government. The Report recommends an overall policy on flood management and sets a context for OPW's work. While not wishing to anticipate Government approval for the Report, the Accounting Officer is satisfied that OPW's revised approach to flood relief schemes is consistent with the Report's recommendations.

The Dublin Castle Business Unit

The Dublin Castle Business Unit of the OPW is a Unit within the Property Management Division of OPW and would typically organize over 500 events annually. The Unit incorporates the Facilities Management Unit that manages the facilities provided for events in the North Wing of the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham and provides facilities management services at the Department of Education and Science campus in Marlborough Street. The Unit is recognised as the State's event manager and is called upon to organise the facilities for meetings and events across the country.

The EU Presidency

From January to June 2004 the Unit managed events associated with Ireland's Presidency of the EU. The Unit was required to provide a range of services to Government Departments in connection with the Irish Presidency of the EU. The Unit was informed in 2002 that not more than 7 informal ministerial council meetings would be held during the Presidency and a number would be held outside Dublin Castle.

The EU Presidency necessitated the provision of additional and enhanced audiovisual equipment, simultaneous interpretation equipment, conference desking and booths. The Unit developed a roadshow to ensure consistency of standards across all venues. This involved the acquisition of new equipment and various other supplies that were stored centrally and transported to each location as required.

The number of ministerial level meetings held during the Presidency was 36.

Audit Concerns

Questions were raised, in the Dáil and in the media, about the procedures applied by Dublin Castle management in relation to its requirements for audio visual equipment and other wider services arising from meetings and events associated with the Ireland EU Presidency. The specific concerns related to

·Formal tendering procedures had not been applied to the provision of audio visual services which had been acqu ired from a sole supplier since 1997

·No tender process was applied for the appointment of Mechanical & Electrical consulta€ts (€395,065)

·Only a restricted tender process was applied for the acquisition of temporary structures for the Punchestown and Tullamore meetings (€302,994 and €503,034 respectively)

·Only a restricted tender process was applied for the acquisition of electrical goods and services including €350,000 for one meeting in Galway

·Only a restricted tender process was applied for the acquisition of labour services for loading and unloading trucks, movement of equipment (€1,487,249)

·A possible conflict of interest in the procurement function.

External Consultants

The OPW appointed external consultants to review these matters in January 2004.

In their report in April 2004 the consultants recommended that OPW

·Apply open competitive tendering procedures according with EU procurement requirements in the Dublin Castle conference centre

·Tailor these procedures to the particular needs of the centre including advice on the standard of documentation to be retained

·Train Dublin Castle personnel in the application of these procedures

·Provide specialist support in relation to procurement matters for all OPW business units and divisions particularly for those not regularly involved in procurement

·Regularly review procurement procedures and incorporate checks to ensure compliance particularly where procurement activity is outsourced

·Establish a mechanism to give assurance to the Board of the OPW that procurement procedures are being followed

·Strengthen procedures in relation to the declaration of outside interests.

I sought information on the circumstances in which the deficiencies in procurement occurred and on the extent to which the consultants ' recommendations had been implemented.

Accounting Officer's Response

The deficiencies in procurement outlined in the consultants' report arose primarily because of the special nature of Dublin Castle's operations and the particular demands of the EU Presidency. The consultants recognized the pressures brought about by having to respond at short notice to changing circumstances and client requirements and in having to ensure the highest possible standards of service and facilities in relation to significant and important State events such as those surrounding the EU Presidency. In these situations it was essential that quality or standards were not compromised by using unknown or untried suppliers.

In recognition of its absolute commitment to ensuring that the consultants' recommendations are fully implemented in a timely way, the OPW Board has allocated dedicated staff resources to carry out this task. A senior official with procurement experience has been assigned responsibility, under the direction of senior management, for the work required to give effect to the report's recommendations in relation to procurement arrangements and procedures in Dublin Castle. The Management Advisory Committee in OPW will receive regular reports on progress on the implementation project and will ensure that steps are taken to address any issues or problems that may arise.

Work has commenced on organizing an open-tender competition for the supply of audio-visual and simultaneous interpretation services in the Dublin Castle Conference Centre. It is envisaged that a full open EU procurement procedure will be followed in line with the recommendation in the consultants' report. It is planned that the open tender competition for the procurement of audio visual and simultaneous interpretation services will also cover the selection of suppliers of such services, including equipment hire, for inclusion on a supplier list for both Dublin Castle's own needs and for any supplementary requirements for such services of clients of the Dublin Castle Conference Centre.

Work has commenced and good progress is being made on the organisation of an open tender competition to select suppliers of catering services for inclusion on a list of caterers for use by Dublin Castle Conference Centre. It is envisaged that this list of caterers will also be used in relation to events in Farmleigh and in the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham. An independent expert with considerable experience in the catering business in both the private and public sector has been engaged to assist in the tender process.

In line with the guidelines in the current revised edition (May 2004) of the Public Procurement Guidelines, a formal open tender process will be conducted where expenditure on any service exceeds €50,000 per annum. An examination of the expenditure and purchasing profile of Dublin Castle for 2003 is being carried out to identify the services to which open tendering will be applied. As part of the profiling exercise, the question of aggregating expenditure on services in Dublin Castle, Farmleigh and other areas of the Facilities Management Unit is being considered with a view to running tenders where appropriate for the award of a single supply contract or the maintenance of a single list of suppliers for all these areas. This would allow for more efficient and cost effective management of the procurement needs and process for the unit as a whole.

The tailored procurement procedures for Dublin Castle will specifically address the need for proper documentation and record management forming a critical and essential part of the procurement process.

Procedures for informing and training staff in all new developments in the public procurement area have been implemented and the ongoing need for training in procurement will be continuously monitored by senior management and the Training Unit.

A new Office Notice was issued reminding staff of the importance of avoiding conflicts of interest by way of a requirement to make a written declaration of any interest, real or perceived.

A risk assessment of OPW's operations across all its business units has been completed. The management of risks associated with procurement activity in each area is being addressed as part of this process.

Internal Audit

As I noted that the internal audit unit had carried out examinations of procurement in Dublin Castle in 1999 and 2002 and had recommended, inter alia, that

·Line management in Dublin Castle should prepare proposals to increase the use of competitive tendering and

·The Dublin Castle facility should institute a system of control and compliance self-assessment to determine that proper procedures are being operated within the facility

I asked the Accounting Officer why these recommendations weren't acted upon.

The Accounting Officer pointed out that follow-up action was taken in relation to the findings of the two Internal Audit Reports in question. The two Reports contained a total of 13 recommendations. Most of these concerned details on the methods and practices employed in placing orders and processing invoices, such as, for example, that orders placed orally should be confirmed in writing shortly thereafter. However, two of the recommendations in the Internal Audit reports of direct relevance to the matters reviewed in the consultants' report had not been properly addressed.

In relation to the first recommendation, the Accounting Officer informed me that all main services supplied to Dublin Castle will in future be subject to a formal competitive open tendering process in line with the recommendations in the Internal Audit reports and the consultants' report.

In relation to the second recommendation, the assessment of compliance with proper procurement procedures has been included as a specific element for action in the risk management programme for the procurement advisory unit. This programme includes a detailed plan assigning responsibility and a timeframe for the implementation of each specific action recommended in the programme. The integration of procurement compliance assessment into the overall risk management programme will ensure that a formal system exists to monitor and report on the operation of proper procedures in Dublin Castle and all other areas within the Facilities Management Unit.

A system to monitor the implementation of recommendations of reports of the Internal Audit Unit has been put in place as an integral part of the risk management programme.

Mr. Purcell

We adjourned the last day on the matter of estimating the benefits of flood relief which was not what the section in the report was about — it was looking at the cost of providing that protection. I did make it clear on that occasion that I considered a quantification of the benefits estimated to follow from a city not being flooded every ten, 25 or 100 years to be an inexact science. I also pointed out that the estimated economic benefits attributed to the Nore scheme were revised upwards over time and that these revisions coincided with increases in the cost of the scheme. I stressed that I was not arguing or taking issue with the experts who produced the economic benefit figures but I did suggest that such figures in general should be treated with caution.

The committee asked for, and the OPW has since provided, the various reports in which OPW's economic benefit figures have been calculated. I have reviewed these and I am confirmed in my initial view that the projection of economic benefits to be attributed to flood relief works is a complex and difficult task. It seems clear from the report submitted that OPW sought to follow accepted practice in the matter and to this end engaged external professional experts. These, in turn, relied heavily on the studies of the leading UK authority in the matter, the University of Middlesex. Since the last meeting I have had a quick look at the position in the UK. I note that the UK authority responsible for co-ordinating policy on flood relief, the Department of Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs, appears also to rely heavily on the same research work undertaken by the University of Middlesex that lies at the heart of the OPW approach to the evaluation of the economic benefits to be attributed to flood relief works. At least on one occasion, precisely the kind of questions raised by the committee have also been raised in the UK Parliament. This occurred in 1991 in the context of the escalating cost of a flood alleviation scheme for the River Thames. It is also interesting that my counterpart in the UK is reported as observing in that connection that the scheme will probably be marginal on the basis of tangible costs and benefits and that intangible benefits will be critical to the justification of the scheme. He also said, and I did not know I was parroting him on the last occasion, "the assessment of intangibles is an inexact science and we are assured the Ministry will look closely at these aspects".

I make these comments to confirm for the committee my view that the quantification of economic benefits in cases such as this is at least as much an art as a science. The OPW clearly asserts that the economic benefits of the current scheme outweigh the economic costs and that the reports they have commissioned fully support this position. I do not dispute this in any way but, without the expenditure of significant resources from taxpayers' funds, I am not in a position to endorse or reject the OPW's assessment of the margin by which the economic benefits exceed the economic costs of the scheme. However, I note that the most significant increase in the quantification of the benefits appears to be attributable to the complete revision in 2003 of the tables used in the University of Middlesex's methodology. In this connection the penultimate document, submitted by the OPW in appendix 2, is most helpful. It sets out why multiplying previously attributable benefits by factors of two or more is warranted under the new methodology. All I can add in respect of this assertion is that in January 2003, the chief engineer of the UK Department of Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs wrote endorsing the new approach to the various UK authorities responsible for flood prevention. He did so, notwithstanding the fact that the updated methodology involved significant above-inflation increases in economic flood damage and, by extension, the benefits to be achieved from the prevention of such damage. He went on to point out that feedback on the practical application of the new methodology would be sought and that a final version of the manual outlining the methodology was expected in 2005. I have no doubt that the OPW will follow these developments with interest and take full account of them in estimating the economic benefits to be attributed to future flood relief projects.

I hope these observations have been of help to the committee in considering what is clearly a very complex subject.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Purcell

Or maybe they have muddied the waters even further, I am not quite sure. Do you want me to go on to chapter 4.3?

Yes, we will open everything.

Mr. Purcell

Chapter 4.3 deals with the procurement of goods and services by the OPW in connection with meetings and events associated with Ireland's EU Presidency. Members of the committee will recall there were some publicly aired concerns about the way in which some of the contracts were awarded. In some cases no tendering was undertaken, while in others there was only restricted tendering for substantial amounts of business. As a response to these concerns, the OPW engaged a firm of consultants to examine the matter and its report confirmed that EU procurement directives and national guidelines had not been complied with in all respects. The report also included recommendations as to what should be done to avoid a recurrence. From the chapter, members will see that the Accounting Officer has outlined how these recommendations are being implemented.

While some of the practices which did not adhere to the rules dated back a few years, it is undoubtedly the case that the scale of procurement for the EU Presidency, which exceeded by a considerable degree the level of procurement normally encountered by the Dublin Castle team, coupled with the need for urgent responses to growing demands, contributed to a large extent to the non-compliance. In fairness, therefore, there were mitigating circumstances. On the other hand, the committee will note that the OPW's internal audit unit had identified two shortcomings in examinations in this area in 1999 and 2002 which, if addressed, would have minimised the risk of non-compliance with rules and best practice.

In 1999, internal audit recommended that line management at Dublin Castle should prepare proposals to increase the use of competitive tendering. In 2002, internal audit recommended that the Dublin Castle facility should institute a system of control and compliance self-assessment to determine that proper procedures were being operated within the facility. Ultimately, I suppose the failure to implement these recommendations at the time has resulted in the Accounting Officer being here today to answer to the committee for that omission.

Mr. Benton

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the members of the committee for giving me an opportunity to discuss the issues surrounding procurement procedures at Dublin Castle and the report on those issues by the consultants, PricewaterhouseCoopers, whom we engaged. At the outset, I wish to highlight a number of points. First, as regards Ireland's EU Presidency, to which many of the procurement issues in the report relate, the OPW was absolutely committed to ensuring that its role in delivering facilities and services to many significant meetings and events was discharged to the highest possible standard. That the OPW succeeded in this objective is not, to my mind, in question. I have no hesitation in commending the OPW's staff, and the Dublin Castle team in particular, for the manner in which they responded to the great challenge presented by the EU Presidency and the major demands placed upon them over the course of those six months. The quality and standard of the services and facilities provided by the OPW met, and in most cases exceeded, the expectations of the client Departments and other organisations that availed of the facilities. I say this confidently because I witnessed at first hand many of the events but, more importantly, because it is borne out by the many plaudits and congratulatory letters we received from those who benefited from the OPW's services — from heads of state, prime ministers, ministers and many journalists and other media personnel who covered the events.

Second, as Accounting Officer I am satisfied that value was achieved for the expenditure incurred by the OPW. Where possible competitive tendering was followed and the lowest, most suitable tender was selected. The term "where possible" is important because, given the nature of the events and the way in which requirements were evolving and changing up to the last minute, it was not always practical or feasible to conduct a formal tendering process to acquire goods or services. However, because of their experience and detailed knowledge acquired over many years, the Dublin Castle team was in a position to source reliable suppliers, when required at short notice, who could provide quality services at competitive prices.

I have no argument with the findings of the PWC report as regards procurement at Dublin Castle. It is important, however, that the points I have made should be borne in mind when considering some of the detailed findings of the report. The PWC report found that as regards the EU Presidency contracts it examined, namely, for the acquisition of temporary structures, audio-visual equipment, simultaneous interpretation equipment, electrical goods and services and general labour services, a competitive tender process was followed using the strict tendering procedures.

The findings of the report concerning the Presidency procurement must be considered in the context of exceptional circumstances in which procurement had to be conducted where requirements were evolving constantly and rapidly. Having regard to the overriding need to ensure delivery of the highest possible standard of service and facilities, I am satisfied the essential principles of public procurement with regard to fairness and objectivity were adhered to to the greatest extent possible. The basic requirement to secure value for money was followed and, I believe, met.

There are other issues in my report, but I do not wish to delay the work of the committee. I can refer to them in the course of responding to questions.

May we publish your statement, including what you have not read out?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

I thank Mr. Benton for his statement. I agree with him as regards our EU Presidency. The kernel of the matter here is the tendering procedure. Will Mr. Benton outline to the committee what tendering procedure was used? He said that regular suppliers were used but how does he evaluate their costs as against those of other suppliers? What evaluation procedure does the OPW have? I understand there can be value in dealing with a regular supplier but one must have some procedure in place for checking. Will Mr. Benton outline that procedure?

Mr. Benton

Certainly. First, the report relates to procurement in Dublin Castle. The nature of the facilities management in Dublin Castle is very different to the broad procurement approach on major contracts in the OPW generally. That is an important point.

Dublin Castle holds hundreds of events every year. There is a regular need for the audio-visual and other services outlined in the report. The reality is that the people concerned are contracted on an event by event basis. In most cases the actual value of the contracts would be tens or hundreds of euro rather than thousands. Individually, they are very small in the overall context. They would have been operating in areas where the facilities managers in Dublin Castle would have been aware of the rates of competing companies. They tended to be given to people whose rates they knew, where they were satisfied they were competitive and on whom they knew they could rely to attend on the day and deliver a quality service. The point made in the report — I accept it is fair — is that while individually the contracts are small, cumulatively over a year they are significant.

We have moved from a position where we contracted for individual events to one where we tender for suppliers to be available for drawdown contracts over a 12 month period. We tender through the EU Journal and the process is just about to be finalised. As Deputies know, there is a lengthy lead-in period. There is a two stage process that takes a number of months to complete. I hope that before the end of the year we will have nominated contractors.

Mr. Benton has said the individuals dealing with the smaller amounts, in particular, are aware of competing firms. Surely, there must be a methodical procedure in place to check a sample. Is there not a procedure which people must go through?

Mr. Benton

Dublin Castle did not deal exclusively with one supplier but dealt almost exclusively with one supplier. It would have been aware of the rates of all suppliers and would at all times have been satisfied that the supplier with which it was dealing could deliver a quality service which was actually the most competitive.

Mr. Benton referred to one supplier. How many suppliers are there?

Mr. Benton

I think there are four to six people in the business of audio-visual services.

How sure is Mr. Benton that people working for the OPW or in Dublin Castle have not built up a relationship with the companies in question?

Mr. Benton

One would be aware of the rates on offer generally. One must rely on the integrity and professionalism of those who work in the area. We have acted on the advice of the consultants to aggregate the value of the work done over a 12 month period and have a transparent and formal tendering procedure.

In regard to the Kilkenny scheme, can Mr. Benton explain the huge increase in the figures for 2003?

Mr. Benton

In what sense?

In the cost benefit.

Mr. Benton

I wish to pick up on some of the comments made at the start by the Comptroller and Auditor General. He has acknowledged that this is internationally accepted methodology for evaluating the cost and benefits but we did not simply accept it at face value. We commissioned independent economic consultants to advise us on whether it was suitable in Irish circumstances. The consultancy confirmed that it was but that if anything, we had significantly underestimated the benefits. As it happened, the Middlesex people were also updating the benefits which resulted in a significant increase. When we applied the new rates the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in the United Kingdom had accepted, the benefits were significant. Although the Comptroller and Auditor General did not mention it, it comes out at a figure of between €115 million and €121 million against a cost of €47 million-€48 million.

I refer to the other proposed schemes. I notice that last week Clonmel was placed on the priority list. Will the same procedure be used in those schemes? What lessons have been learned from the Kilkenny scheme which can be applied to the Clonmel scheme which is to start early next year?

Mr. Benton

The answer to the first question is yes, the methodology will be used. Our record will show that unless the cost benefit analysis is positive, we will not proceed with the scheme. This work will be carried out early on. There are a number of schemes with which we did not proceed because we could not establish if the cost benefit analysis would be positive. I am happy to say that in the case of the Kilkenny scheme it was extremely positive. We will subject the Clonmel scheme to the same analysis and I hope it will show equally positive results.

We certainly learned from the Kilkenny experience, the first major scheme of its kind in the centre of an urban area. The first lesson I have learned is that it is very dangerous to publish preliminary estimates without attaching serious health warnings. Until one has the final design and the site conditions are reasonably well known, there is a chance the actual estimates will be significantly out. I think all estimates should be seen as preliminary.

The second I lesson I have learned from working in an urban area like Kilkenny is that we significantly underestimated the cost of archaeology which grew substantially. I think we can usefully take this lesson on board in future urban schemes, particularly in old towns.

I suppose the final point we have learned which has influenced our thinking in Clonmel is that the greatest risk is presented by the actual river. If one can avoid working on the river bed, one can eliminate many of the risks.

As the Deputy will know, we are now proposing a scheme which is significantly different from previous schemes in that it relies, to a great extent, on demountable walls and early flood warning systems. The early warning system gives one an opportunity to put demountable panels in place. One can then remove them when the flood subsides. I am hopeful, if not confident, that the overall cost will go down as a result of adopting this approach. If anything, that was the key lesson.

The technology for demountable defences has come on a lot. We have seen examples of where it works well in other countries. As I am not an engineer, if the Deputy wants to know anything about the surrounding technical issues, I will get Tony Smith to explain them. Essentially, that is the difference in approach.

Given the difficulties that arose in Kilkenny, has an archaeological assessment been carried out in Clonmel?

Mr. Benton

I have not got the detail of what has been provided for in terms of archaeology. My colleague might retrieve some information on that matter. In Kilkenny, we relied on our experience of other schemes, but we did not have experience of working in the centre of a medieval town. The lesson I learned is that archaeological work should be carried out much earlier to determine what might exist. At the preliminary estimate stage, we simply included a provision which would have related to our experience in other schemes.

Would it not be important to carry out the work earlier?

Mr. Benton

I absolutely agree.

Is it causing some of the difficulties?

Mr. Benton

It is, but the fact that we will do less work in the river reduces the need for archaeological work to the same extent. Much work will be done along the bank and we will not be in the river. The cost of carrying out archaeological work on the river bed was extremely expensive. It is expensive at any time but archaeologists working under water are particularly expensive.

Is Mr. Benton saying the OPW intends working in Clonmel in the knowledge of what happened in Kilkenny? While an assessment of the area has been carried out, it is not clear where it is going or what problems it may come up against.

Mr. Benton

I am not saying that; in fact I am saying the opposite. The fact that we may not be disturbing the river bed means we do not have to carry out detailed archaeological assessments of the river bed.

I take that point. Do you need to carry out any other assessments?

Mr. Benton

Environmental impact studies are very important.

Where are they to be completed?

Mr. Benton

The EIS is completed and available.

I thank Mr. Benton for all the reading material he supplied on the estimated value for money, returns and so on. Nature probably provided its best test last month when the OPW came through with flying colours. We could forever refer to the theory, but it is important to examine the end result. One would not wish Cork to be flooded but the Kilkenny scheme was a good test of how to deal with the problem. Perhaps Mr. Benton could talk us through the general benefits of the flood relief scheme.

Mr. Benton

As the Deputy correctly stated, the scheme worked extremely well. Kilkenny, like parts of Cork, had extremely heavy rainfall and the scheme worked precisely as designed. As a result, there were no problems in Kilkenny. The work on the scheme is complete. The landscaping which needs to be done is seasonal and will not take place until early next year. It was a good test in that the rainfall was particularly heavy.

The project which we completed recently in Carrick-on-Suir performed extremely well. My engineers said that if the work had not been completed parts of the town would have been flooded to a depth of up to four feet. The scheme worked extremely well. Therefore, the benefits to the people living in these areas are obvious to anyone who witnessed the devastation caused by flooding in urban areas.

It is good to learn from this type of experience. As a lay person, I am fascinated that the calculation of the economic benefit makes no reference to the cost of the project. Obviously it is a separate exercise. On the various prices referred to, Mr. Benson said it was a mistake to publish the preliminary estimates. I contend that it is probably a bigger mistake to submit these estimates to another Department. The procedure appears to be that if someone says a project must be carried out, whether a flooding project or a new road, a preliminary estimate is submitted. The project is included in the list of accepted projects for the year, on which there is no going back, and after six or 12 months it is discovered that the figure was a guesstimate and the real figure will be four times more. Are there any plans or suggestions to change the procedure to make the OPW more responsible for the submitted estimate? This would mean that it would have to do its homework before bringing the figure to the Minister for Transport or the appropriate line Minister.

Mr. Benton

As the Deputy will be aware, the procedure involves bringing the scheme to exhibition, and then it is submitted for confirmation by the Minister for Finance, following which the contract documents are drawn up. There is much merit in what the Deputy said. I am discussing with my colleagues whether more detailed design should be done before exhibition. It is only when the detailed design is available that one can estimate accurately the costs. The Chairman made the point at the last meeting that, while one has an option to abort a project at any stage if it is not affordable, one is raising public expectations, which makes it difficult to row back. I argue that before placing a contract, one should be able to withdraw. I take the point, however, that for other reasons one is generating pressure to proceed. We are considering carrying out more work before submitting figures to the Minister for Finance. This will involve extra expenditure on the part of the office and it could be nugatory if the scheme does not proceed.

I believe the balance would be in favour of money saved. Perhaps Mr. Benton will come before the committee next year in regard to projects with which the OPW did not go ahead. It is important that the procedure is correct, which I do not think is the case at present. I do not want to keep referring to the Cork courthouse which was slightly different in that the Courts Service took over the project half way through. I made the point previously that I do not believe local authorities, for example, have the in-house expertise to carry out work on the courthouse and so on. What invariably happens is that agencies, in this case the Courts Service, say they require the size to be doubled. The same is happening in other cases. It is usually local authorities which give the go-ahead. Procedures must be put in place whereby figures are not submitted to the Minister for Finance or the appropriate line Minister until more work is carried out on the costs.

Mr. Benton listed six reasons why the cost of the Kilkenny project changed. I disagree with at least two of them. People might say that a survey should have been carried out on the contamination of the river bed and so on, but I appreciate that the local council intervened at some stage. I cannot understand why there would be inadequacies in the initial design of the structures. I am aware there are alternatives but one cannot come up with an estimate for a project which is not designed properly.

Deputy Hayes referred to the higher than expected cost for archaeology. It may be something of an exaggeration to say that a projected figure of €600 has turned out to be a couple of million. Nevertheless, the projected figure was not even in the ball park. More initial testing should have been done. The figures I mention may not be accurate and I do not wish to be unfair to the OPW, but half a day spent by someone with a little expertise would have suggested a more accurate projection.

I fault the OPW on two of the six points. Rather than worrying about publishing the preliminary estimate, the office should work on a scheme whereby the estimate is not actually submitted. I accept that things have changed, as the Department of Finance has explained to the committee previously. Projects are now coming in before time and within cost. However, that is a slightly different story and might be the result of competitiveness rather than good work practices.

Would Mr. Benton agree that changes must be made?

Mr. Benton

Deputy Dennehy has made a number of points and there is certainly merit in some of them.

In relation to contamination, we were operating on assurances both from the EPA and Kilkenny County Council that the work had already been successfully completed. On our own initiative, we decided to survey and we then found the problem.

It was where we were encountering problems that we decided to do some redesign work. It was not huge in itself but one or two buildings could have been endangered had we maintained the same design solution in close proximity to them, and redesign work was done there.

Other issues, such as provisions, have not been alluded to. Buying out the price variation clause was not part of the original contract. Also, in the updated figure we have also put the €1.7 million for work done pre-contract which had not been included previously. We have allowed for increased costs for compensation over and above what had been provided for originally. We have allowed for many additional costs in the light of our experience in dealing with the Kilkenny scene. They are not all related to the actual construction work.

With regard to archaeology costs, Mr. Benton says lessons were learned. Legislation has been brought in to protect archaeological interests. In general, how does Mr. Benton see that affecting projects? A new industry has grown up. Most weeks, I see letters about the Hill of Tara or protesting about a huge range of projects. They are usually signed by the head of archaeology in a university. How is this affecting projects in general and public projects in particular? In the case of private projects, people are concerned that they fill in a hole as quickly as they find one — I do not want to be cynical about that. People have concerns but they are co-operating. I have seen schemes in Cork which were very well carried out. Does Mr. Benton see the new regime causing delays in the future? Have we enough archaeologists? It is, obviously, a very slow business.

Mr. Benton

Before I deal with the general questions I will talk about the specific one of Kilkenny and the reason we did not anticipate more. Based on our experience we arrived at a figure, and because it was Kilkenny we doubled it. We were still out by several million. We doubled the provision because Kilkenny is unique.

The figure of €600 is in my mind.

Mr. Benton

The figure is €600,000. The requirements of archaeology are something one must take on board in project programming, like other health and safety issues. It is now part and parcel of any development. Generally, we do not have a problem.

That is good. I join Deputy Hayes in complimenting the OPW, and Mr. Benton as head of the office, on the work carried out during the EU Presidency. We were imagining all sorts of things going wrong but the OPW came out of it very well.

I refer to an issue in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Have complaints been received following the breach of the requirement to advertise in the EU journal and our exceeding the specified figure? Has there been a follow-up on that?

Mr. Benton

No complaints have been made directly to us. Perhaps I should explain the background in this instance. The fundamental issue was whether the work was covered by the works directive or the supplies and services directive. There was a belief on the part of the people involved that it was covered by the works directive. Sites involving JCBs, hard hats and the erection of tented villages were believed to be covered by the works contract, which has a threshold of almost €6 million. Many people involved in procurement have shared that view. The legal view, when we sought it, was that it was covered by the services directive, which has a threshold of a little more than €100,000. However, I make the point that the contract was awarded to a European firm. Although we did not follow the formal EU procurement requirements a Dutch firm won one of the main the contracts. It was awarded on the basis of lowest cost and best quality. It won on all criteria. In some of the venues, contracts were won by Irish firms.

Some questions arise on the procurement procedures in Dublin Castle. I see there was a conflict of interest where an employee of the OPW at Dublin Castle was a director of one of the supplying companies. Did that cloud the issue and was it resolved subsequently?

Mr. Benton

I do not believe the employee was a director of a supplying company. He was a director of a company in which a director of the supplying company was also involved.He declared his interest to management in Dublin Castle from the start and management was aware of it. The report states clearly that there is no evidence to show this individual gained personally in any way. To that extent, he was fully exonerated. He had declared his business interest. Management in the castle were aware of it and were satisfied that, in so far as he was involved, he dealt objectively with the issues at all time.

Did he have a role in the selection of the company which got the contract?

Mr. Benton

He did, initially. That has changed since. There is absolutely no evidence that there was any actual conflict. I think the perception of a conflict exists and we have changed our procedures accordingly.

OPW's outside consultants recommended that procedures on declarations of outside interests of staff would be introduced. Has the OPW implemented that recommendation?

Mr. Benton

We have.

What is the procedure now?

Mr. Benton

The procedure is where anybody has a conflict or where there is the possibility of a conflict or even a perception of a conflict they must notify their line managers. However, we have taken that one step further. They also notify the head of personnel, who is one remove from the area of activity making a judgment on it.

On the flooding issue, Mr. Benton mentioned that the OPW had rejected some river drainage schemes on the basis that the benefit did not justify the cost. What was the basis for that assessment?

Mr. Benton

Again, we would have used the FLAIR methodology to try to establish the benefits, on the basis——

I understand that until 2003, the FLAIR methodology was based on the procedures defined in 1987. The methodology now has a new base of 2003, in which different multiples are used and different weightings are given to the intangible benefits. When the OPW rejected these schemes around the country was it using the 1987-based FLAIR scheme or the 2003-based one? Would the OPW consider revisiting these schemes now because it would get a different result using the 2003-based FLAIR scheme?

Mr. Benton

We based them on the original scheme, but we always made an allowance for the time that had elapsed. Certainly in the cases that I can recall it would not have even come remotely close to break even.

Could Mr. Benton name the schemes?

Mr. Benton

Williamstown in Galway is the one I remember particularly.

Did the OPW not reject one for John's River, Waterford?

Mr. Benton

No, we are looking at design proposals for Waterford.

That is still in——

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Does Mr. Benton not believe that using the new basis of 2003 would change the decision on the cost benefit of some of the schemes the OPW rejected?

Mr. Benton

I suppose what has changed is that following the Government decision on flood management, the Office of Public Works now has primary responsibility in this area and is required to designate all of the rivers that are in danger of flooding and to prioritise work on those rivers to be addressed over a period of time. If any of the ones that were previously rejected come back into the reckoning because of the potential for flooding, we will certainly apply the updated FLAIR methodology to them. All rivers are being looked at now and it may be that some new areas will emerge as priorities that may not have been recognised in the past.

Turning to the Vote, Mr. Benton is probably aware of media comments that the Media Lab Europe project in the Liberties area of Dublin is in serious financial difficulty. Reports, which seem to be accurate, suggest that unless it receives a big injection of private money the project will be no longer viable. The OPW accounts show very large disposals of land and buildings. The OPW explains this by outlining that it disposed of lands and buildings to the tune of €50.619 million. More than €50 million was transfers of properties to the Digital Hub Development Agency. How was that done?

Mr. Benton

If I understand the Chairman correctly, the property to which he refers is the Digital Hub property, which was transferred by way of legislation. However, generally regarding developments in that area, if the business folds — our only involvement is in property — the property reverts to the State.

Did OPW get paid for this or do the accounts just show the value of the transfer?

Mr. Benton

That was the value of the transfer.

The OPW got no payment.

Mr. Benton

That is correct.

Property to the value of €50 million was transferred.

Mr. Benton

To the Digital Hub Development Agency.

To the Digital Hub Development Agency, exactly. If the project now goes into liquidation——

Mr. Benton

There are two different projects involved. Perhaps I might invite the commissioner, Mr. Byers, to explain, as he is closer to this than I am. The Media Lab Europe project and the Digital Hub Development Agency are quite separate.

Is it not a parent and child relationship?

Mr. David Byers

Not exactly, as I understand it. Media Lab Europe is a tenant of the Government in the buildings it occupies. The Media Lab Europe buildings are ours — the State's, the OPW's — and Media Lab Europe is the tenant. There is a provision in the high-level agreement that the State will provide it with a certain amount of space, which it occupies as it needs it. If Media Lab Europe were to stop operating there the buildings would revert directly to us. The other buildings, which were transferred by legislation to the Digital Hub Development Agency, comprise a selection of property, which it now owns, so to speak. It operates as a wholly owned subsidiary of the State. The shareholder is the Minister for Finance. It is charged with the urban development of that tranche of property. If it ceased to operate for whatever reason that property would be an asset to that company. It was transferred from us by legislation. We bought it on behalf of the State and it was transferred to the Digital Hub Development Agency when it was set up by legislation.

If either or both of the associated companies were in financial difficulty——

Mr. Byers

One of two different things occurs. If Media Lab Europe were in financial difficulty and for whatever reason vacated the premises, the OPW would have that property directly and could, in theory, sell it off to the highest bidder or occupy it for some other State use. If the Digital Hub Development Agency were to cease to trade, it would be a matter for the shareholder, the Minister for Finance, as to what he would want to do with the property at that point.

If it ceases to trade in circumstances where it has financial liabilities, are those financial liabilities a charge on the property?

Mr. Byers

I would imagine so, yes.

A potential exists for an asset valued at €50 million, which was freely transferred, having liabilities attached that may not be recoverable by the State.

Mr. Byers

In theory, I think the Chairman is right. I am not aware of its complete financial position, but that is certainly a theoretical possibility.

Does Mr. Byers have any precise information to add to what I am saying?

Mr. Byers

No, the Digital Hub Development Agency does not report to or deal directly with us. Its parent Department is the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. There is a Government liaison committee which overseas both the agency and Media Lab Europe in their relationship with the Department. I sit on that committee. Figures come into that committee from time to time and I believe there are negotiations about ongoing funding. However, that is a matter for that Department and I do not feel I can comment on that at this time.

On Vote 10 in the appropriations-in-aid section, the OPW has an estimate for rent of more than €11 million of which only €6.6 million was realised. The note suggests that the arrears of rental are principally mast sites at Garda stations and the rental was not as high as expected. I know that some of the private telecommunications companies bought the right to erect masts on Garda stations. However, I cannot see where the estimating difficulty arises. If a fixed number of Garda Stations have such masts and the OPW is charging a fixed amount of rent, how could the outturn be €5 million less than the estimate of €11 million

Mr. Benton

This was mainly because the Garda authorities had incurred costs concerning telecommunications, which the company was able to cancel against its liability, in other words the cost of calls gardaí were making.

Mr. Benton will need to explain that matter further.

Mr. Benton

It was part of the original contract. Under a deal that was done with the Garda authorities, they were provided with equipment but they had to pay for the actual calls, which were offset against the cost of the rental. Mr. Byers is familiar with the contract.

Mr. Byers

The contract was drawn up some time ago. The firm that has the exclusive contract to use Garda masts provides a certain amount of mobile telephony to the Garda. The cost of that is set against the putative income to be received by the State. An audit system is in place, but the OPW does not control the amount of calls the Garda can make or anything like that. The current single company contract is coming to an end. We are putting in place a completely different form of contract.

Was the OPW not aware of that when it submitted an estimate of €11 million for appropriations-in-aid?

Mr. Byers

The amount of calls made by the Garda, according to the telephone company, was more than the OPW expected.

The calls were worth €5 million more than expected.

Mr. Byers

I do not think it was as much as that — the correct figure was €4.3 million.

When the OPW initially drew up its estimate, what did it envisage the value of the calls would be?

Mr. Byers

The OPW understood that, under the contract, the number of handsets that would be used by the Garda would be in the hundreds. The telephone company maintains — I do not have any reason to doubt it — that the number of handsets issued increased greatly. The company argues that it was entitled to do that under the contract. That is what happened.

When the OPW was drawing up the estimate of €11 million, did it have some assumptions about the offsetting cost of Garda calls? It would have been a net figure. What was the figure envisaged by the OPW? Why was the final figure €4 million greater than that? I am trying to establish the total cost of the Garda calls, according to the telephone company, when one includes the €4 million.

Mr. Byers

We will have to check the figures. I do not want to start throwing around figures about which I am not 100% sure. The contract in question was drawn up some time ago. The Chairman will understand that the OPW has been working extremely hard in the past year to put in place a new contract.

Is the existing contract about to end?

Mr. Byers

No, I think there is approximately a year to go. Another contract, which allows other companies to use Garda masts, has kicked in and is overlapping the contract to which the Chairman refers. It does not provide for telephone costs to be allowed against the rentals.

Is the OPW relying totally on the demands made by the telephone companies? Does it have any way of cross-checking the number of handsets, the number of calls or the cost of the calls made by the Garda?

Mr. Byers

An outside firm has audited the bills sent by the telephone company, which has had to prove to the auditors that the calls were actually made. The OPW has no reason to doubt that the calls were made.

Mr. Benton

I would like to clarify matters. The single biggest factor in the discrepancy is a change in accounting procedures. A number of State agencies were given provision in their budgets for rental payments, which they would have paid to the OPW in the past. Approximately €3.2 million of the discrepancy is accounted for by the change in accounting procedures.

Is it not also true that the change in accounting procedures has brought to light this matter?

Mr. Benton

In relation to the——

As I understand it, the OPW made an arrangement with private telephone companies to allow them to put aerials on Garda stations at a price, or rental charge. There seems to have been a sub-clause in the contract that allowed the Garda to make telephone calls on handsets supplied by the companies.

Mr. Benton

The OPW did not make the arrangement. It was made by the Garda authorities and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Mr. Benton

The OPW was simply——

Collecting the rent.

Mr. Benton

——asked to implement it.

Yes, on the basis that it is the landlord of the properties.

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Can the OPW write to the committee to give it more information in this regard?

Mr. Byers

Yes, we can explain the matter. We can also clarify how the new contract, which provides for a standardised form of access for every licensed telephony operator, fits in and overlaps with the contract we have been discussing. We are putting in place the new contract, with the agreement of the Garda.

The final issue that arises from Vote 10 is that of overtime payments to OPW grades. The table outlines, in the normal way, the maximum payment of more than €6,350 given to individual members of staff. It seems a member of staff received a total overtime payment of €34,191.

Mr. Benton

Yes. It was a very large payment.

What were the circumstances?

Mr. Benton

I do not recall the individual circumstances. The OPW employs approximately 1,600 industrial workers, of whom about 300 are seasonal. I think the case in question relates to a person who was working for seven days a week, more or less, in the run-up to the opening of Farmleigh. As far as I recall, there was a great deal of on-site activity at that time.

Was the person in question engaged in electrical work?

Mr. Benton

No, I think the person was managing the operation on the ground in Farmleigh.

When was the work in question done?

Mr. Benton

It was done during the period leading up to the opening of the facility.

I would like to ask a final question about the part of Vote 10 relating to new works, alterations and additions. The estimate for "minor new works" was €15 million, but the outturn was €27.5 million. What is the definition of a "minor new work"? How did the sum increase so significantly?

Mr. Benton

The OPW has a threshold of £500,000, or €650,000, for works which are known as "minor works". It engages in a significant volume of minor works throughout the country, for example in respect of Garda stations and properties used by the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Revenue Commissioners. The process of fitting out offices often falls under this category. Many of the minor works are necessary for health and safety reasons. It is not always possible to predict in advance when such problems will present themselves. The OPW always makes provision for minor works, but it has to exceed that estimate in some years because urgent works are required or unforeseen demands are made.

How many separate projects were involved in the "minor new works" costing €27.5 million?

Mr. Benton

I can give the figure to the committee. The individual projects could cost more than €50,000.

I am not asking about the cost of the individual projects. It is obvious they were all related to building works. How many projects were there?

Mr. Benton

There were hundreds of such projects.

I wish to refer briefly to the cost of the Kilkenny flood relief. I am pleased the committee has received so much information. We have discussed at length the variations in the cost of the scheme. It is useful for the committee and the public to be made aware of the benefits of the scheme. I was interested in the Comptroller and Auditor General's earlier comments. Parliamentarians in the House of Commons had similar queries and, unbeknown to the Irish Comptroller and Auditor General, the Comptroller and Auditor General in the UK responded in a similar way. Perhaps we all think alike on these matters. Does Mr. Benton know if people who had difficulties obtaining insurance because of the flooding in Kilkenny will now be able to obtain insurance? Have any of them done so? Have circumstances improved on the ground in this regard?

Mr. Benton

I am not aware of the position on insurance but I would be very disappointed if I did not see a positive reaction by the insurance companies given that the flood protections are in place. If the companies refuse to cover people in the area, they need to be pursued. I know the Minister is particularly anxious to pursue this matter.

Obviously, the operation was expensive, notwithstanding that it was a good job. The OPW is now talking about other measures, including temporary demountable walls. Will the local authorities do the work in this regard or does the OPW have people in place at every potential location? What is the plan?

Mr. Benton

The works will be carried out by the OPW. However, when the flood warnings are issued, the erection of the demountable walls will be the responsibility of the local authority. There is much preparatory work to be done on these schemes in terms of training people at local level. They work hand in hand with early warning systems, for which we also take responsibility. The ideal arrangement would be such that sufficient time would be allowed to allow local people mount the defences.

What happens if flash floods occur and there is insufficient time to mount the defences?

Mr. Benton

They are not a suitable solution for flash flooding.

The putting in place of the demountable walls will not represent as complete a solution as the Kilkenny solution. It will not deal with flash floods.

Mr. Benton

The solution will comprise a combination of factors and will not consist solely of demountable walls. It will offer the same level of protection as the Kilkenny scheme.

Who will pay for this? We all know the cry of local authorities that they are strapped for funds. Will the OPW offer a subvention to the local authorities if they are to be its agents on the ground? Will the authorities have to do the work at the expense of their house maintenance budgets? Mr. Benton can understand the arguments that will arise.

Mr. Benton

We will pay for the works, but whatever costs the local authorities incur in mounting the defences will be nothing like the costs they will incur in mopping up the flood water.

I take it they will be getting no money from the OPW to mount the defences.

Mr. Benton

Correct.

We will break the news to them gently.

At our last meeting Mr. Benton stated that, instead of doing a big, comprehensive job like that done in Kilkenny over a three-year period, similar projects of the same scale should be done in stages. He felt the latter approach would be more economical. I would have presumed this was the wrong approach and I was concerned about it. It is more efficient to do a big job all at once rather than in a piecemeal manner, even if there is a substantial cost incurred.

Mr. Benton

I do not believe we intended to give the impression that the work would be piecemeal. It would be in the context of an overall solution to the problem. Environmental and other reasons may be such that it will be necessary to break the work into digestible bits, but this will be done with a view to delivering on a comprehensive scheme. Urgent interventions might afford some benefits but obviously would not afford the benefits that would be afforded by the scheme when fully completed. It is a question of breaking the job into pieces that one can accommodate without compromising the overall approach to the design solution.

There are potential difficulties. Once one does the urgent bit and gets sucked in on site, one could end up having to——

Mr. Benton

Notwithstanding that, many of the interventions along the Tolka have been very successful and did not require a huge capital investment. I take the Deputy's point. Generally, the approach is like a development control plan, whereby one carries out the work in pieces while knowing exactly where one is going.

I do not know if I am using the right wording, but I notice the OPW is starting to create some flood relief plans. Local authorities have been requested to hold off regarding certain planning issues pertaining to certain rivers. Has the OPW asked the local authorities to draw up flood relief plans or is it drawing them up itself? I have heard the River Barrow mentioned in this regard.

Mr. Benton

We are developing catchment maps which show the extent of flooding on any river and I presume local authorities will avail of them when they make determinations on planning.

What is the timescale?

Mr. Benton

My colleague tells me there are two phases. We are doing the historical phase first. It will take approximately 12 months. It will be another two years before we have the catchment plans.

I ask Mr. Benton to liaise closely with the relevant local authorities on these matters because there is a tendency for them to say that routine planning applications, when submitted, are premature pending receipt of a big report from the OPW on flood relief in the area in question. Mr. Benton will acknowledge the potential for people to want to hold back, perhaps for understandable and good reasons.

Mr. Benton

I do.

However, the possibility of an OPW report in the pipeline could cause an extra series of delays in the planning process. Has the OPW any arrangements to make sure this does not happen?

Mr. Benton

We are liaising very closely with the local authorities. They are represented on the steering group, as they were on the overall policy review group.

I thank Mr. Benton.

I welcome Mr. Benton. I will not revert to the Kilkenny issue. At the risk of being parochial, I will draw attention to the road from Waterford to Tramore. Waterford City Council and Waterford County Council were informed last week that the road had been omitted from the proposed John's River arterial drainage scheme. The reason given was that the cost benefit analysis was negative. This matter has caused extreme disquiet in the city and county of Waterford. Bearing in mind what Deputy Fleming said about liaising with the local authorities before making such decisions, one should note that I have spoken to the county engineer and other representatives and the point made to me was that, although there may be a game going on between the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the OPW, if one is to undertake a pretty comprehensive drainage scheme like the one in question, all the problems need to be dealt with. The Tramore-Waterford road is a regional, secondary road, but it has far more traffic than a primary route. When the road floods, as it does at least once or twice per year, the alternative route is far too small to accommodate the traffic. A great deal of damage is done to traffic when diverted to the alternative route. Was this taken into consideration when the decision was made?

Mr. Benton

It was. We did a very detailed cost benefit analysis and determined that the cost involved in that section of the work, which essentially involves raising the level of the road, is €7 million. The benefits accruing are estimated to be worth €4 million. On that basis, we did not feel justified in proceeding with that element of the scheme.

Was the fact that Tramore is now the second largest urban area in Waterford taken into account? It is now larger than Dungarvan and is growing at a phenomenal rate. This is not something that happens once in a blue moon, it happens once or twice a year at least. The answer that there is an alternative route is not acceptable. Did the person who wrote that report ever travel the route? It is not safe and the engineers cannot believe that was the solution.

Mr. Benton

The traffic movement was considered in detail but I would be happy to make the report available to the people involved and discuss with them how thorough it might be. If there are issues we have not costed, I would be happy to reconsider.

That is fair enough. I will go back to the county council. This has caused some disquiet, particularly in Tramore. People cannot believe this decision was made. I will go back to Waterford County Council, ask the engineers to examine this report and make a submission to you. This is a regional road but it gets more traffic than the primary routes.

Can we dispose of Chapters 4.1 and 4.3 and note Vote 10? Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 20 January 2005.

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