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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 21 Jul 2005

Post-Project Review of the National Agriculture and Eventing Exhibition and International Show Centre at Punchestown.

Mr. T. Moran (Secretary General, Department of Agriculture and Food) called and examined.

I welcome the officials from the Department of Agriculture and Food and their report on the post-project review of the national agriculture and eventing exhibition and international show centre at Punchestown. This committee recommended that such a review would take place and this report is in response to that recommendation. The report has been circulated and the officials are here to discuss it with the committee.

I wish to make witnesses aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege before this committee. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request a committee to direct the attendance of witnesses in the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of the proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interest of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Will Mr. Moran please introduce his colleagues?

Mr. Tom Moran

With me are Ms BridieO'Neill, principal officer in the Department, Mr. Jim Beecher, assistant secretary, Mr. Aidan O'Driscoll, assistant secretary, Mr. John Holland from our economics and planning unit and Mr. Pól Ó Duibhir from the Department of Finance.

The officials are all very welcome.

Mr. Purcell

Members will be familiar with the background to the report before the committee today and I will be brief in my comments. As the Chairman said, in its first interim report published in March 2004, the committee included a recommendation that a post-project review of the events centre at Punchestown should be undertaken by the Department of Agriculture and Food in accordance with the 1994 guidelines issued by the Department of Finance. The Department responded positively to the committee's recommendation and put together a steering group chaired by the chairman of its audit committee to undertake the review. The steering group supervised the work carried out by the Department's economic and planning division and consultants evaluated the overall exercise. The committee can be satisfied with the rigour of the review.

I will leave it to the Accounting Officer to go through the detail of the report's findings. While the report is fairly positive about the centre's prospects, it bears out the validity of my concerns about the lack of a proper project evaluation in advance of being given the "go ahead". The report records that the Department has now accepted that a detailed financial and economic evaluation of the proposal should have been undertaken in line with the Department of Finance's 1994 guidelines and that this should have happened both at the initial appraisal stage and when requests for greater levels of funding were sought. The report also finds that the Department should have considered alternative venues in the interests of thoroughness and full accountability and that wider consultation with other Departments should have taken place. These issues, together with the need to properly protect the State's interests, represented a cornerstone of my concerns as set out in my 2002 report. I draw the committee members' attention to the "lessons learned" section of the report, which crystalises what this issue is concerned with.

Mr. Moran

In its first interim report on the exhibition and show centre in Punchestown in March 2004, the committee recommended that the Department would carry out a post-project review of the centre, which the Department has now done in line with the 1994 guidelines issued by the Department of Finance for the appraisal of capital projects. The terms of reference for the review were those recommended in section 4 of the guidelines and were notified to the Committee of Public Accounts in September 2004. A steering group was established within the Department to oversee the approach to the work. As was stated, Mr. John Donnelly, the external chairman of the Department's audit committee chaired the committee. Mr. Donnelly is the former managing partner of Deloitte & Touche. The economics and planning division of the Department prepared the review and an independent consultant was used to ensure the terms of reference forwarded to the committee were followed and that the methodology used in the review was appropriate.

Work on the review faced two particular difficulties. First, it took place only three years after the opening of the centre, which was early for a post-project review of this type. Second, the lack of a comprehensive pre-project analysis meant it was not possible to compare actual costs and benefits against those that had been anticipated. Nevertheless, the review was completed to the satisfaction of the steering committee, the external evaluator and me as Accounting Officer. The key findings of the review are set out in each section of the report and are summarised in bullet point form in the executive summary. The report found that there was a requirement for a facility of international standard to hold major agricultural and equestrian events and exhibitions and that public funding for such centres is normal in other European countries. It also found that the lack of a top class eventing centre and showcase venue left an infrastructural gap which has been filled by Punchestown. It noted that such centres are common throughout Europe and that most are supported by public funding.

The report also found that Punchestown, due to its history, location, exceptionally large site, synergies with the racecourse and expertise in eventing, was the logical location for the type of integrated agricultural and eventing centre envisaged. However, the review found, and the Department accepts, that a more transparent examination should have been undertaken of possible locations in the interests of thoroughness and full accountability.

The cost benefit analysis in the review found, on conservative assumptions, that there should be positive net economic benefits from the project. It also noted that there are significant secondary social and economic benefits from the centre, which are not included in the analysis. The analysis — and the assumptions underlying it — is set out in some detail in an appendix to the report.

The review found that the centre should generate sufficient funds to cover its costs and will not require State subvention for its day-to-day operations. The Department made it clear that such funding would not be forthcoming. However, it found that this issue of financial sustainability should have been examined in greater depth when the project was being considered.

The review observed that the Department had already accepted that a detailed financial and economic evaluation of the proposal should have been undertaken in line with the Department of Finance guidelines. Finally, it noted that, as indicated in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, proper tendering procedures were observed in the project and proper controls were in place in respect of the processing of payment claims. The report also outlined some important lessons for the future and I will return to these later but first it might be useful to elaborate in a little more detail on some of the findings to which I have referred.

The review examined the issue of the need for the event centre. It found that the lack of a top class eventing centre and a showcase venue for quality Irish horse and cattle breeding left a gap in the infrastructure needed to support the animal breeding and equestrian sectors. As the report points out, such a centre should be capable of accommodating large numbers of people, it requires an extensive site with ancillary infrastructure and a cross-country course for eventing competitions, it must be accessible to large population concentrations, air and sea travel should be convenient and those operating it require experience of managing large scale events.

Punchestown meets these demanding requirements and was the natural choice for such a centre. Having received the Punchestown proposal in 1999, the Department examined it and considered it to be worthy of support. The Department was conscious that such a facility, if built in time, would greatly add to the prospect of successfully staging the three-day 2003 European Eventing Championships and the Open European Endurance Championship. There is no doubt that there are other centres with excellent facilities which regularly host activities related to agriculture. None were suitable for the development of international standard three-day eventing facilities and did not have adequate land for a cross-country course or expertise in this area. However, the Department fully accepts that a more transparent examination of other possible locations should have been undertaken at the outset.

The financial information provided by the management of Punchestown, in the preparation of the review, gave details of the financial position up to 2007. The centre made small losses in the period 2002 to 2005 and is projected to make small profits in the years 2006 and 2007. These figures appear credible, based on rising sales and the increasing number of events held to date. They are in line with what might have been anticipated, as centres such as this would not be expected to generate substantial profits. At the time the project was approved, no formal analysis of the financial independence of the centre was undertaken. It was made clear, however, that the running of the centre would be a matter for Punchestown and that such costs would not be covered by the Exchequer. This remains our position and we are optimistic, based on the projections provided by management, that the centre will prove to be financially viable.

The review also provides an economic analysis of the project. Capital projects are normally evaluated over a 20-year period. This cost benefit analysis indicates that there are positive net economic benefits. The benefits of the State's investment begin to exceed the costs after 13 years. In the case of the event centre, there is an estimated €7 million in direct economic benefits over the 20-year lifespan of the project. This sum is in current terms. In real terms, the figure would be smaller but it would still be positive. Inevitably, there are many assumptions built into these calculations and they are set out and explained in the report. The assumptions used are conservative and indirect or secondary benefits are not included in the analysis.

In its interim report on the event centre, the PAC is critical of the evaluation process carried out. The Department has accepted these criticisms. At that time, the Department considered it difficult to evaluate the project in terms of outputs and outturns and it did not appear to readily lend itself to be evaluated under the 1994 capital guidelines. In hindsight, it is clear, as the post-project appraisal shows, that this could have been done. In the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Punchestown Centre, it was found that proper tendering procedures were observed in connection with the placing of contracts and that the Department had satisfactory controls, such as on-site inspections and detailed administrative checks, regarding the processing of payment claims. This is a very important finding.

As I mentioned earlier, the report also outlined some lessons for the future. It recommended strict adherence to the Department of Finance guidelines on the appraisal of capital projects and that the principles of transparency be observed, with projects advertised to potential bidders. It also stated that a reappraisal should be undertaken in the event of a request for increased funding. The Department will, of course, comply with this recommendation should any future capital project be considered.

New Department of Finance guidelines have now issued and will be applied by the Department. The Department of Finance will be providing an advisory note to Departments in the near future on how these guidelines apply to capital grant schemes, which account for most of our capital budget. The report recommended that a cadre of trained staff be maintained to undertake appraisals and notes that such a group of staff is in place in our economics and planning division. We are giving attention to this aspect of staff development in our expanded staff training programme.

The report also suggested that risks related to major capital projects should be managed within the Department's risk management system. The Department established the first formal, enterprise-wide risk management system in the Civil Service a few years ago and it is now being emulated in a number of other Departments. This system is applied to all major work areas within the Department and would be applied to any future significant capital project.

The report also recommended the adoption of clear objectives and performance indicators to benchmark future projects. The Department has a particularly strong record in the publication and monitoring of performance indicators for its customer services and policy programmes. We will certainly apply the same approach to any future capital projects of this sort, should they arise.

While I am here to present the report of the post-project review, it might also be appropriate for me to refer briefly to some other developments since the last discussion of this issue at the PAC on two related matters that were of concern to it. The committee concluded that the corporate restructuring arrangement between Horse Racing Ireland (HRI) and the Kildare Hunt Club should be fully implemented as soon as possible to further strengthen the protection of the State's interests. The Department is also anxious to have the corporate restructuring arrangement between HRI and the Kildare Hunt Club fully implemented as soon as possible. However, the resolution of the taxation issues between the Kildare Hunt Club and the Revenue Commissioners is outside the control of this Department. Our understanding is that this matter is nearing completion. We expect the finalisation of the restructuring arrangement will follow from that.

The committee recommended that the revised legal agreement should be completed by the Department and signed as soon as possible, also to protect the State's investment further. The revised legal agreement was signed on 8 April 2004.

As I stated at the outset, a post-project analysis has been completed which is objective in its analysis and process. It was overseen by a steering group chaired by the chairman of the audit committee and was assessed by an external independent consultant. I am happy to present this to the committee and I hope it meets the committee's requirements. The Department has learned important lessons from this experience with regard to the appraisal of capital projects and these will be put into effect. I will be happy to answer any questions the committee may wish to ask.

May we publish Mr. Moran's statement?

Mr. Moran

Yes.

I have one issue to raise with Mr. Moran. The Department's primary justification now and in the post-project evaluation is that the centre is an essential piece of infrastructure for the agricultural industry. It is needed to host eventing and also to showcase Ireland's excellence in horse and cattle breeding. I am troubled by the fact that events scheduled for the centre, which I have asked the secretariat to put on screen, do not seem to be connected to that objective.

From 7 to 10 April the Our House and Garden Exhibition was held, which was followed by Musgraves Christmas Confectionery Show on 30 May to 1 June and a Volkswagen car show. On 18 and 19 June the Irish Commercial Truck Show was held. The Oxegen rock concert was held on 9 and 10 July. On 21 and 22 July the Kildare Growers Show is being held. From 30 August to 4 September the Corry Homebuilding Show will take place, followed by the Nelton Woodworking Ireland Exhibition on 9 and 10 September. The Musgraves Chilled Food Show, trade only, will be held from 15 to 25 September. From 18 to 20 November the McCann McGuirk Christmas Show will take place.

I cannot see the relationship between the objective of this being a key piece of infrastructure for the agri-industry and the events that are booked it. That is not to say it will not be financially viable or that it will not make a profit. I presume all these events are worthy in themselves. However, they do not seem to be consistent with the primary objective of providing the facility. Will Mr. Moran comment on that? I do not intend to pursue the point but I wish to make it.

Mr. Moran

I understand the point the Chairman makes and I have a valid explanation to answer it. As I stated at the outset and as is reported in the appraisal report, the primary purpose of the centre relates to the broad agricultural and equine sectors. The nature of these events means there will not be wall to wall agricultural shows or equine events. It is a slow process to build them up. The European Eventing Championship, which was held at the centre in 2003, was a major event that made full use of the centre. Over time it is intended that there will be a growth in the number of agricultural events which will complement the equine events. Across Europe it has been the experience that in centres such as these, other types of shows and demonstrations, such as those referred to by the Chairman, must be held to contribute to the viability of the centre.

The event centre hosted the Farm Machinery Show which could not have been held anywhere else. Clearly it is custom-made for equine eventing. It is ideally suited for cattle breed associations but attracting those associations is a slow process. I hope over time they will be attracted to the centre.

From personal experience as an attaché in France for a number of years, I know similar event centres host large agricultural shows to allow farmers, agribusiness and the agricultural sector come together and examine the best of their output. They also host other types of events to make it viable and fully useful. The answer to the question is that my information on the bookings this year, which are up on previous years, is that approximately 50% are core events and 50% are non-core events. As we speak today, a major horticultural event is taking place which was opened by Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith. As the report found and as our experience suggests, the centre has the capability of assisting and filling a deficit in the wider infrastructure of the type described.

I fully agree with Mr. Moran that the centre must be run on a commercial basis and if it is empty, it should be rented to whoever is prepared to pay for its use. My difficulty is that with the exception of today's event, which is the local Kildare Growers Show, no other event listed has anything to do with cattle breeding, horse breeding or agribusiness. Today's event is a horticultural event but it is Kildare-based rather than national. I agree the gaps should be filled in on a commercial basis to make it viable but there is no evidence on this schedule that it attracts core activity or that it operates as a strategic piece of infrastructure. There seems to be a divergence between the theory and the practice.

I wish to follow up on that point. I am at a loss to understand the gap the centre intends to fill. Traditionally in Ireland we have had successful shows throughout the country in places such as Tullamore and Clonmel. Was it that type of event the centre wished to attract? I am not referring to equine events. That is well covered because of its location, but with regard to agriculture and animals, other than machinery shows, what other type of events could the centre have attracted?

Mr. Moran

Leaving aside the equine side, if Deputy Hayes casts his mind back to the traditional Spring Show which was an extremely important event in the calendar of Irish farming, it no longer takes place in Dublin 4. It used to be a major gathering for those involved in farming. Farming is an isolated pursuit and is becoming more so. That is an issue in the business. From the point of view of the industry developing and progressing to higher value added output, farmers need to come together to show what they do and present the excellence in what they do. The only way that can be done is by seeing the results of it. The only way cattle breeds can be furthered is by carrying out scientific and technical measures such as artificial insemination and milk recording at farm level.

The other side of the issue is to show the products and show the results. These are the kind of events that are important. One of the major breed societies, the Friesian Breeders Association, held its conference at the centre. We hope that some of the world breeding events will take place at the centre. One such event, the Holstein breeders event, is due to take place in 2008 and obviously Punchestown would be in the running to host that kind of event. That is just one example of the type of near-farm related events that could take place at the centre. The success of shows such as the Tullamore Show and others, and the ploughing championships illustrates the need for events where the farming community and related communities can gather and showcase excellence, both nationally and internationally.

No one doubts that. Neither I, the Chairman or the public have doubts in that regard. Mr. Moran began by referring to the fact that the Spring Show has been replaced by the National Ploughing Championships. Surely there is some way the Spring Show could be part of the ploughing championships. Is there not some way of allowing the ploughing championships to be held at the centre, which would make it far more viable than it is at present? Did Mr. Moran hold discussions with organisations such as the NPA, which are involved in the type of showcasing to which he referred? Were there any negotiations or consultations with the people in the ploughing world?

Mr. Moran

There were extensive discussions with the various bodies involved in breeding at the time of the initial assessment. My predecessor said it was well known within the breeding and wider farming community that there were infrastructural gaps in this area. Ploughing is different in the sense that it is, literally, a moveable feast. It does not have a national home but moves around from year to year.

To some extent, the ploughing championships have replaced some of the traditional activities of the Spring Show but not all of them. Events at Punchestown would not replace the Spring Show either. It is more a question of additionality rather than simply replacing one event with another. For various reasons, including the evolution of Dublin and farming, the Spring Show is not suited to the type of function it performed years ago. Equally, similar events have evolved over time and it is hoped that as farming evolves, the Punchestown centre will fill a gap in that area.

If one examines events held last year in Punchestown, for example, one can list the Farm and Garden Machinery Show and the Home and Garden Exhibition. Such events are horticultural in nature and horticulture, including non-vegetable or domestic horticulture, is part of this area. Other events include the International Three Day Event, the Kildare Garden Growers Show, the Chilled Trade Show, the Carriage Driving Championships and the Farm Machinery Show. These are the kinds of events that have been held in the centre which are broadly linked to the farm area.

There are still many gaps in the information provided. Mr. Moran has not addressed my question about agricultural shows that could be brought to Punchestown. I accept that he has referred to some events that are scheduled to take place a number of years from now. However, I cannot see how the time at a centre like Punchestown can be used up by agricultural events because there are not enough such events. I do not know——

Mr. Moran

I take the point that the Deputy is making but one cannot build a centre like Punchestown, which met an infrastructural gap, and expect to attract every national and international agriculture related event immediately. This assumes that up until the building of the centre, such events were homeless. We all know that if one is in the business of organising national or international events, one must commit to a venue several years in advance. A few weeks ago, the International Grassland Association met in Ireland but the planning that went into that event began many years ago.

The issue now is to assert that there is a centre available now, which is ideally suited to a range of uses, not just equestrian events. It is suitable in terms of location, infrastructure and so on. Our job now is to attract the type of events that will showcase what we are about. We must not forget that livestock is at the heart of Irish agriculture, accounting for more than 80% of the sector. If we do not have the kind of infrastructure in place to showcase Irish livestock to practitioners and overseas people, then——

Were other locations for the centre examined?

Mr. Moran

Much of this has already been examined in great detail by the committee. One of the deficiencies identified by the committee, which we accepted, was that we did not advertise. However, that does not mean a range of locations was available and numerous people were waiting to develop this kind of facility. The fact is there were not. For various reasons, as stated in the report, there were synergies between the event centre, the availability of 400 acres of land, its accessibility and so on. All these factors made the location the logical choice. It is not that other locations were examined and rejected, rather that this was the only one that was presented to us.

The report and the opening remarks by the Secretary General of the Department support an agricultural event centre at Punchestown and provide great detail on that issue and on the project review. However, the report does not answer the question that was put to Mr. Moran when the Chairman opened the meeting, that is, if it was designed to be an agricultural and eventing exhibition centre, that is not what was built. As the well known advertisement states, it does not do what it says on the tin. If one examines the list of events held or due to be held at Punchestown, one sees that in the main, they have little or nothing to do with agriculture.

I accept the point made by Mr. Moran that in the commercial world, one builds up into what one sees as the core use for the centre. However, there is no evidence of this happening either. While major event organisers have a calendar that may stretch to five years or more, the marketing of this centre is attracting the type of events referred to earlier. Therefore, there is something wrong with the centre and the marketing in that it is not attracting the type of events for which it was originally built nor the type of events supported by the report. In other words, Punchestown continues not to do what it says on the tin and I have an issue with that.

We all had concerns relating to the original applications that were made to the Department. The Comptroller and Auditor General reported on that matter and this committee visited the centre. The report before the committee accepts that certain things were wrong. The issue might have been approached in a different manner, and the committee accepts this in hindsight. However, it must also accept the truth that this is not the centre's core business. The centre does not seem to be doing much about providing evidence that it will have a certain core business that is detailed in the report. That is my concern, and the answers provided by the representative to the Chairman and Deputy Hayes give no indication of the marketing plan of the centre for this purpose. I have seen nothing in the public domain, on websites or on printed material, that would lead me to believe the centre carries the business described by the representative.

I have no difficulty if business cannot be attracted and the current agenda is therefore built upon. That agenda includes the Oxegen festival and other events partially related to agriculture. The centre was not built for these. As we have gone through the reports and arrived at this point of examination, the core issues are not being dealt with in an adequate commercial way.

I wish to discuss the protection of the State's investment in the centre. It has been stated that if an issue arose and if objectives were not reached, grant money would be returned. However, the legal issues surrounding such a statement are not firm. The committee expected to get a signed legal document and a restructuring of the corporate entity as it is known. I found it to be a maze of commercial structures and it was difficult to grasp what was ongoing in it. I expected, from the report and activities since this issue was last debated before the committee, that a firm structure would now be evident.

The report indicates that VAT is due from one company and the issue is being resolved with Revenue. If the representative had been here at our earlier meeting with officials from Revenue that issue may have been resolved. How long will this issue go on? Normally if a resolution is reached with the Revenue it is done within a timeframe. The issue is resolved through a step-by-step process taken with the Revenue Commissioners. How long will it take to resolve outstanding debts with other parties, who are waiting for a new structure and commercial success to kick in? That would be a stage where the State can truly be happy with the protections in place on the grant that was given. How long will we have to wait for real protection to be offered on giving back the grant if certain targets are not met or if the agenda set for the centre is diverted from?

This issue needs to be dealt with in cold commercial terms. We should not deal with what we would like to see but with what is actually happening at the centre with regard to the structure and commercial necessity to deliver what has been promised. There should be no nonsense about solving an issue with the Revenue or that debts are repaid when commercial success becomes evident. There is much concern about what is contained in the report about debts, issues with the Revenue Commissioners, the fact that the commercial structure promised is not being delivered and the lack of a timeframe. Could the representative comment on these matters?

Mr. Moran

The Deputy has raised a number of points. My response may not follow the order of questioning but I will deal with the issues.

With regard to the legal agreement, I said earlier on and it is stated in the report that the initial arrangement with the Punchestown people was based on an exchange of letters. The committee felt this arrangement was not strong enough. That advice was taken, and a strong legal agreement was worked out and signed in April 2004. That is now in place. One of the points of the legal agreement is the undertaking on their behalf to repay grant moneys in full, or an appropriate portion as deemed reasonable by the Minister, if the centre is sold, leased or if authorised and permitted uses for the centre are altered or changed in any way without prior approval. This will also happen if any of the terms of the agreement are breached in the period of 20 years from the signing of the agreement. A condition is in place for the payment of moneys in the event of the agreement being breached.

With regard to use of the centre, the initial use and purpose of the event centre was set out and understood between the involved parties. This continues to be the case. A centre such as this cannot operate 365 days every year, and it can operate for only a certain number of days. The centre is operating at 70% to 80% capacity already, I believe. It is essential that the centre is used to capacity. In the event of a lack of core agricultural-type or equine events, it is logical and commercially sensible to use it for other event types. Some of the uses referred to earlier relate to the race course and not to the event centre. The Oxegen festival was a race course event, and the race course has been holding concerts for many years. Percy French apparently sang there a long time ago. A tradition of holding concerts has existed with the race course, which is entirely separate from the event centre. The centre is not designed or used as a music concert hall.

With regard to the issue with the Revenue Commissioners, I understand the Deputy's concerns. The matter involves the investment by Horse Racing Ireland and the structures put in place for its package for the race course. Punchestown and Horse Racing Ireland will jointly hold the new company formed, and will be the owner of subsidiary companies. The finalisation of the company is delayed pending the resolution of the VAT issue with the Revenue Commissioners. It would be for the previous holders of my position to answer questions on that issue. The information we have is that the issue is nearing resolution. This does not take away from the fact that the arrangements between Horse Racing Ireland and the Kildare Hunt Club are almost in place. A board has been set up and board members have been appointed etc.

The contributions of the Department of Agriculture and Food to the building of the event centre were secured through a legal agreement that is now in place. The Horse Racing Ireland grant and contributions to the centre further strengthens the State investment overall. This is held up pending the resolution of the VAT issues with the Revenue. Security is there for the State money. I can only speak for the money from my Department but we are happy that it is secure. I understand the Deputy's concern on the issue nonetheless.

Moving to a greater involvement in the core activities as set out will take time. None of the other types of event will displace a core activity. They are present because it is essential to fill gaps. It is to be hoped that if farm related events conducted by the equine sector, the farming and breeding associations and the farm machinery sector increase, they will gain precedence over the non-core usage.

I am concerned by the time which is passing and the fact that there is not an overall structure in place. There are other issues behind this that concern me, aside from the VAT issue if it is ever to be repaid. I hope it will be and that the centre will be very successful. However, at the moment there are still unanswered questions regarding the centre concerning the speed at which the entity can be put in place to protect the investment of €14.8 million and so on.

Regarding events at the centre, one can take out Oxegen as well as one or two others. I hope the dates for such events will be renewed. However, they are not the centre's core activity and are not the purpose for which it was built. One can renew those dates to the exclusion of others which may turn up. I have seen no evidence in the public domain which would lead me to believe the centre was being advertised or promoted as an agricentre or a centre for that kind of exhibition, even in the loose sense of the word. Is the Department of Finance happy with the report? Has it been signed off and is it happy with the security for the State as far as the €14.8 million and the usage of the centre is concerned?

Mr. Pól Ó Duibhir

The Department is happy on the basis that the Accounting Officer is satisfied that this is the best available to us at present and that the measures sought by the committee have been and are being put in place.

Mr. Ó Duibhir has examined the detail of the report before us and has heard the replies. On his examination——

Mr. Ó Duibhir

I have looked through it. We have not examined it in great detail but rely on the report and on the external evaluation of the report regarding the centre's prospects. As to the other matters raised, the Secretary General has stated that it will take time and that security will be put in place as quickly as possible once the matter with Revenue is resolved. We will also note the other points made earlier by the Secretary General. That is our position. We will rely on the Secretary General and his report.

Can I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General the same question?

Mr. Purcell

I accept the report for what it is. There are many assumptions made in it. I am inclined to believe that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. To mix metaphors, at this stage of the event centre's development, it seems that the voters are not voting with their feet. The farming, equestrian and agribusiness communities do not appear to be taking up their slots in the programme. This is not exactly a red herring, but this committee, the Secretary General's statements and the post-project appraisal report make common cause to the effect that the centre requires other events to make it viable.

However, if one goes back to when this project was proposed in the first place, a letter was sent to the European Commission on the question as to whether this constituted a state aid. This is something I mentioned in my report on this subject when it was first brought to the committee's attention. That letter stated that the centre would most likely operate in a break-even manner and was unlikely ever to generate profits and also — importantly in the context of state aid — that it would not operate in a competitive market situation, either at national or international level.

However, we now have the situation where the Department and the report commissioned by the steering group have stated that it really requires these other non-core business related events to compete with other centres and to break even. I mention this in case we forget our starting point in the late 1990s and the year 2000 when that letter was sent to the European Commission.

I wish to inform Mr. Moran that I dissociate myself from the criticism of the significant list of events taking place in the centre. The GAA is one of the largest organisations in the country and must run pop concerts in Páirc Uí Chaoimh in Cork and Croke Park to make them viable. It is the approach to take. The key point to emerge from the committee's discussion and Mr. Moran's report is that Punchestown was the only place suitable for three-day or any other type of eventing. That was one of the primary reasons for building it. I see a danger that the committee will now tell these people how to run the centre and will in fact justify the criticism and ensure that it becomes a loss maker. That appears to be the route on which the committee is now heading.

I was pleased to receive this report and will go further than the Comptroller and Auditor General's comment that it is fairly positive. For me, it is very positive because this committee is in the business of dealing exclusively with bad news. It only examines the small percentage of State transactions where a difficulty arises and the Comptroller and Auditor General raises the issue. It does not examine the rest of the State's business. It is bad enough that the committee must do so, but if something is working out well, it should recognise that fact. To me, the three key questions were whether the project met a real public need, whether Punchestown was the right location and whether it would be financially viable or secure in the future. Reading this report, the answer to all three questions is "Yes". That was this committee's concern.

It is important to note that from the outset, this committee accepted and agreed unanimously that proper procedures were not followed in respect of some issues, including those of financial sustainability and the examination of alternative sites. We agreed on that. However, criticism has been loaded onto the project to the effect that it is not suitable, the events will not come or that it cannot be properly run and will lose a fortune. The committee should not try to ensure that these happen. I am concerned that some of the criticism aimed at this project has not been about securing the loans and the rest but that it simply will not work. I do not accept that premise.

Given my background, I know little about the events that would be hosted in the centre. However, since 1974 I have spent most of my political life at local and national level trying to encourage initiatives. I have tried to encourage groups and locals to create job opportunities, to do something and to display some initiative without being totally stifled. If things are done wrongly, I have a duty to point that out. However, I should not continue to ride a situation simply to ensure that I justify that criticism.

I refused to visit this venue because of some of the criticism at the time which I felt was misdirected. It was not in any way aimed at its financial aspect, which is the committee's purpose. It was taken far beyond that and I had concerns about that. It is good that the committee has had this discussion today and that it has this report, which the Department of Finance also stands over, because all the committee's questions are answered in it.

I was anxious, particularly because of the valid concerns of people I thought knowledgeable about it at the time. I am concerned that we have to be so negative, but unfortunately, it is part of our job. One of the things pointed out earlier was that it was necessary to employ an independent external consultant. Every Minister in every Department is questioned every day of the week regarding the amount Departments spend on consultants as though it is a crime. Almost every report we examine, including this one, recommends employing consultants. We recommend bad practice as far as the media is concerned. I have concerns about that. For example, I could ask the delegation what this cost and what Department would pay for it. I presume the Department of Agriculture and Food would pay for it. We are adding to the difficulty.

Am I correct in saying the answer as to whether the project met a real public need, whether Punchestown was the right location and whether it is financially viable and secure for the future is "Yes"? I do not expect the centre to make a fortune. If it breaks even and provides a facility for the State that is the way it should be.

Mr. Moran

The answer to all three questions is "Yes". I rely to a very large extent on the report and my examination of it. I stress that the report clearly found that we fell down as a Department in certain procedures but we learned lessons and move on. However, the report found that the answer to these core questions was very positive.

I take the point Deputy Dennehy made about consultants. In this case above all cases, an external consultant was employed and it was particularly important that this was the procedure used. An analyst wing of the Department made the report in line with Finance procedures. These were trained analysts working in the economic and planning unit who had nothing to do with the initial policy decision or the implementation of it. An outside person chaired the steering group to bring another layer of objectivity to proceedings and to doubly ensure that the thing was done correctly and the methodology was correct. The consultant was brought in, not to produce the report, but to ensure that it passed muster. Given the controversy and the sensitivities surrounding this, we wished to say that it had the required level of objectivity. I was happy enough reading the report and taking it to the committee. If we just said that the answer to all these questions was "yes", people could query whether the report was carried out correctly and the correct methodology was used. Now we can say with hand on heart that the report is objective. The cost of the consultant in this case is not a major issue but it brought the required level of objectivity.

With regard to the use of the centre, it should not and will not make enormous profits. It will probably make a loss this year but it will start moving into a relatively small level of profit next year and the year after. From the Department's perspective, the key point is that these other events, which are necessary to ensure viability, cannot and will not be allowed to exclude the core activities. In the event of there being competition between one of these type of events and something like a breeders' conference or a cattle demonstration, the latter will hold sway. These kinds of events do not of themselves pay huge money. This is where one has a useful synergy or cross-fertilisation, which takes place in all similar operations that we have looked at and know in Europe and the wider world.

I do not wish to labour the point but I am concerned that this committee could be considered to be negative and it should not be, as we have a specific job to do. Thousands of people have attended a show that the Munster Agricultural Society from Cork has run at the marquee at the agricultural showrooms every night for the past two weeks. This has nothing to do with agriculture but it will carry the showgrounds presumably for the next 12 months. I would encourage them. I would lobby for an event to be centred in Cork if this was possible. I am worried about this and I mentioned this to the Chair when we received this report. I specifically asked that we review it here because I felt it was the first bit of good news that we had received for a long time. I would be as concerned as anybody about waste of public finance, if proper contracts were not in place and if we did not resolve the difficulties with Horse Racing Ireland or whoever is involved. However, when it goes well, we should say so.

Mr. Purcell

I do not have anything else to say. I intervened but that was in response to a request from Deputy McGuinness on the specific point about the events being held in the centre. To consider that point in full, I felt it necessary to refer to the earlier references in my original report.

I thank the speakers at today's meeting.

The witnesses withdrew.

Is there any other business? As the committee will launch its report at 3 p.m. in the audiovisual room, we have approximately 12 minutes. It is proposed to adjourn until Thursday, 15 September 2005. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee adjourned at 2.47 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 15 September 2005.

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