COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 9 Feb 2006

2004 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 10 — Office of Public Works.

Chapter 3.1 — Agreement on the use of Garda Radio Masts.

Mr. S. Aylward (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) and Mr. S. Benton (Chairman, Office of Public Works) called and examined.

Chairman

We are considering the 2004 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 10 — Office of Public Works, chapter 3.1 — agreement on the use of Garda radio masts. Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege before the committee. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997, grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited to appear before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers this appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a manner as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision in Standing Order 156 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I invite Mr. Benton, Mr. Aylward and the representative from the Department of Finance to introduce their officials.

Mr. Seán Benton

I am accompanied by Mr. David Byers, commissioner, who has responsibility within the office for property, and by Mr. Joe Farrell who is our accountant and heads up our finance unit.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I am accompanied by Mr. Mick Kirrane who works on the accounting side of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Chief Superintendent Jim Jeffers of the Garda Síochána; Assistant Commissioner Pat Crummey and Mr. Michael Culhane who is the chief accountant and financial director of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. David Denny

I am from the organisation and management division of the Department of Finance and accompanied by Mr. Frank Griffin from the public expenditure division.

Chairman

I invite Mr. Purcell to introduce Vote 10 and chapter 3.1.

Paragraph 3.1 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

3.1Agreement on the Use of Garda Radio Masts

Background

The Government decided, in February 1997, to approve a proposal to permit a mobile telephone company (the company) to install, erect and maintain mobile telephone antennae and ancillary equipment on and adjacent to the radio masts maintained by the Garda Síochána in specified locations subject to certain terms and conditions. A non-exclusive agreement was entered into between the Commissioners of Public Works, the Minister for Justice, the Minister for Finance, the Garda Commissioner and the company in June 1997 to this effect. The agreement was for a period of five years and contained a provision for the company to renew it for a further five years, subject to certain terms and conditions. The company exercised this right in August 2001.

While 459 sites were originally identified, the number of masts utilised since the commencement of the agreement to May 2005 is 185.

Licence Fees

In the agreement sites were categorised as: premises located in the County of Dublin, premises located in other urban areas, and other premises. Different tariffs applied to each category. Provisional rents were specified in the agreement and were payable from February 1997, where applicable. The agreement made provision for the definitive determination of licence fees by an independent arbitrator reporting within 3 months of referral to him. The company was required, within 14 days of the date of execution of the agreement to select an independent arbitrator from a panel nominated by the Office of Public Works (OPW). An arbitrator was appointed in March 1999. The arbitrator, in a report dated July 2002, determined revised rates payable from the agreed valuation date in June 1997.

Arrears of licence fees of €3.6 million, due to the arbitration findings, were received by OPW in February 2003.

I asked the Accounting Officer of OPW what caused the five year delay in finalising the licence fees and if the question of claiming interest on the arrears due to the delay had arisen. In reply he informed me that, in order to prepare the State's case for arbitration, it was necessary to gather comparable evidence and one of the main sources of such evidence was licence agreements that the company had entered into with other landlords. Discovery was agreed in principle in April 1999 but this process was a very long drawn out affair. Due to prolonged negotiations on confidentiality considerations, the need to issue formal Orders of Discovery and the necessity to instruct Counsel, an Oral Hearing did not take place until December 2001. The Arbitrator issued his findings in July 2002. He pointed out that the time scale required by the Arbitrator to consider the evidence and issue his award was a matter entirely for the Arbitrator. He also informed me that the award was effective from the commencement of the Agreement and that there was no provision for the payment of interest on the arrears of licence fees.

Equipment

The agreement required that the company provide the Garda authorities with 300 mobile phone handsets free of charge together with free connection to the company's GSM network. It also provided for connection for a further 150 other GSM handsets already in use by the Gardaí as well as connection of a further 100 handsets for use by the Gardaí.

I asked the Accounting Officer for the Garda Vote how was the need for the quantity of mobile phones acquired, initially and subsequently, assessed — particularly vis-à-vis the availability of the Garda radio network. He informed me that there are recognised security issues with the existing Garda analogue radio systems. While the GSM network is not considered to be a replacement for an Emergency Services Network, it does provide an important element of security. This is considered very beneficial to the Garda organisation and is, to some degree, a stop gap measure until the new digital radio system is introduced. Plans for a new radio system were progressing as quickly as possible. The new system would have the requisite level of security and is expected to lead to a considerable reduction in the number of mobile phones required by the Gardaí.

He stated that the telephone services included in the original deal were negotiated as part of the overall agreement. It would appear that, although the Gardaí had a requirement for mobile telephony prior to the agreement, the Gardaí did not pursue it because they had concerns about the means to control the costs of calls. The company's proposal, with the use of a closed user-group and free air time, reduced this risk to a degree.

Call charges

The agreement specifies a detailed scheme of charges that provides a mix of:

·calls totally free of charge

·calls free of charge at certain times

·free SMS communications and

·calls and SMS communications at cost and without profit to the company.

The number of mobile phones in use by the Gardaí has risen substantially due to operational reasons since the agreement was signed. The number of connections has increased from 550 to approximately 1,000. This has allowed the Gardaí to migrate phones on a separate agreement to a more favourable tariff regime.

An internal circular was issued by the Garda authorities in September 1998 on the distribution, care and use of official issue Garda cellular phones. This states, inter alia, that phones must be used for official purposes only, that daily usage in excess of €40 is flagged for examination and that Chief Superintendents will be responsible for monitoring and certifying usage. I asked the Accounting Officer if he was satisfied that the level of checking employed by the Garda authorities was commensurate with the risk of use other than for official purposes. He replied that he was satisfied that the control procedures employed by the Garda authorities were in line with the potential risk of usage that fell outside the scope of the official circular. To minimise the risk of unofficial usage, the Garda authorities reviewed the monthly electronic and paper bills. The Gardaí had reviewed the operation of this monitoring system and an official had been assigned the task of reviewing the bills for usage. A monthly report was now sent to each Assistant Commissioner requesting that he satisfy himself that the usage was reasonable. Separately, all calls to premium numbers were blocked.

Net Income

Mobile charges incurred by the Gardaí under the agreement are deducted from the licence fees payable by the company. The licence fees received and the amounts offset in respect of mobile phone charges incurred by An Garda Síochána are set out in Table 1.

Table 1

Year	Licence Fees Received	Offset in respect of Charges	Net Receipts
	€	€	€
1997	282,625	—	282,625
1998	579,299	195,683	383,616
1999	1,342,371	422,567	919,804
2000	639,085	567,040	72,045
2001	1,152,350	524,042	628,308
2002	860,746	766,921	93,825
2003	5,855,706	1,374,516	4,481,190
2004	2,040,955	1,119,924	921,031

Certification of costs and inspection of books of account

The company is obliged to supply to OPW, within three months of the end of the calendar year, a statement signed by its auditors certifying that the amounts invoiced for call and other charges have been calculated in accordance with the provisions of the agreement. However, the company failed to submit audit certificates in respect of 2000, 2001 and 2002 until April 2003 following requests from OPW.

The OPW also has the right, upon written notice being supplied to the company, to appoint a representative to examine the books and records of the company for the purposes of verifying that the amounts invoiced to the Garda Síochána have been properly calculated in accordance with the provisions of the agreement. This right was exercised for the first time by OPW in January 2005. I enquired what the results were of the examination of the books and records of the company. I was informed that the results of the inspection were generally satisfactory but that clarification on some discrepancies had been requested and was still awaited.

Mr. John Purcell

The subject matter of chapter 3.1 first came to the committee's attention during its examination of the OPW Vote for 2003 at its meeting on 9 December 2004 when a substantial shortfall in the estimated receipts for rents was noted. It emerged that part of the shortfall was attributable to arrears of rent arising from an agreement with Esat Digifone, now O2, for the use of Garda masts. They were not quite what was expected. In the discussion that followed it came to light that Garda mobile phone bill charges from the company were being netted off against the rental payable and that these had proved to be higher than anticipated. My staff followed up on the matter and the results are set out in the chapter. The audit showed there was an inordinate delay in determining the appropriate commercial rents for use of the Garda sites and this led to the build-up of arrears of rent for the intervening five-year period, representing the difference between the provisional rents and those ultimately fixed by the arbitrator.

In overall terms, between 1997 — when the agreement was entered into — and the end of 2004, net receipts of the order of €7.8 million had accrued to the Exchequer from the deal. That is €12.8 million in rent, minus mobile phone bills to the value of €5 million. The agreement with O2 and the use of the Garda sites runs out in 2007.

I understand that approximately 1,000 Garda mobile phones are now covered by the agreement with O2 and that an added benefit has been the additional security afforded by the mobile phone technology over the existing official radio network, which I suppose has been showing its age for some time. There are plans for a more modern radio system and I understand it is to cover all emergency services. This is intended to be the standard means of secure communication governing police business in the future.

The other points covered in the chapter are the extent of checking by the Garda to ensure excessive use is not made of the mobile phones for personal calls, and also how the OPW satisfied itself that the invoices from O2 were in line with the agreed tariff regime. Reasonable action has been taken on both counts.

I should mention an accounting point. By right, the mobile phone bill should be a charge on the Garda Síochána Vote, with the gross rental receipts being accounted for as appropriations-in-aid of the OPW Vote. I will not dwell on that point at this stage. It is not merely an accounting point but also an accountability point. If the chairman wants to discuss it later, I will.

The two largest expenditure items on the OPW Vote are €193 million on new works — one will see the major projects involved in this expenditure outlined in Note 15 — and €107 million, which covers rent and rates on property occupied by Departments and Government offices. The statement of capital assets shown in Note 4 gives some idea of the value of the property assets maintained by the OPW. I say "some idea" because it would be difficult, if not meaningless, to ascribe market values to properties such as Dublin Castle or Áras an Uachtaráin, which will not be put up for sale.

There was a significant level of property sale during the year and these sales realised €84 million, which was paid over to the Central Fund as Exchequer extra receipts. The outturn on the Vote was pretty much in line with the Estimate provision and just €3.5 million was returned to the Exchequer out of a net estimate of €438 million.

Mr. Benton

I take the opportunity to update the committee on the progress regarding the installation of mobile telecommunications equipment on Garda masts. As members may be aware, in 1997 the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Minister for Finance, the Garda Commissioner and the Commissioners of Public Works entered into a non-exclusive agreement with Esat Digifone Limited, now O2 Ireland, regarding the installation of telecommunications equipment on certain Garda premises. Under the terms of the agreement, O2 was allowed to install GSM equipment on certain Garda premises for an initial period of five years, with an option, which has been exercised, to extend the agreement for a second five-year term. This agreement will expire in June 2007 and it is not proposed to renew it for reasons I will explain later.

From the commencement of the agreement, provisional licence fees were payable by O2, and the agreement provided for an arbitration process to establish the definitive licence fees payable for three categories of sites. The arbitration process proved to be much more complicated than anticipated and, accordingly, for the reasons I outlined in my reply to the audit query, took far longer than anticipated to be brought to a conclusion. However, the eventual outcome was very satisfactory from the State's point of view and the arbitrator's award was backdated to the commencement of the agreement.

The agreement also provides for the fees to increase annually in accordance with the increase in the consumer price index. The gross annual licence fees are currently approximately €2 million. Under the terms of the agreement, a certain number of phones and connections were provided to the Garda Síochána, some free of charge and some to be charged at cost and deducted from the licence fees payable by O2. O2 is required to invoice the Garda Commissioner in respect of the goods and services provided and to furnish the Commissioners of Public Works with an annual auditor's certificate certifying that the amounts invoiced have been properly calculated in accordance with the provisions of the agreement.

As allowed for under the terms of the agreement, the OPW's management accounting services examined O2's records for the purpose of verifying the amounts deducted from the licence fees. This examination concluded that the deductions made are in accordance with the agreement. However, the examination raised some issues in relation to an increase in the number of hand sets issued to the Garda Síochána and what call charge rates were to be applied to Garda phone calls. We asked the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to clarify these issues and it informed us that the Garda Síochána increased the number of phones from 550 to 1,000 under clause 4.14 of the agreement. This clause provides that the Garda Commissioner, on written request to O2, can request additional goods and services as outlined in the agreement. The Department also informed us that the call and other costs are in accordance with the terms of the original agreement.

Overall, this agreement has proved to be a very worthwhile initiative generating gross revenue for the State in the region of €14.8 million since its commencement. As stated, this agreement will expire in June 2007 and will not be renewed. We have been involved in very complex negotiations with the Commissioners of Public Works, the Office of the Chief State Solicitor, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda and all the mobile phone operators, and we reached agreement on the terms and conditions of a set of standard licence agreements, which will govern all future installations of telecommunications equipment on State property, including Garda masts.

Chairman

May we publish Mr. Benton's statement?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Chairman

Will Mr. Aylward make his opening statement?

Mr. Aylward

The Comptroller and Auditor General has reviewed the agreement in place for the use of Garda radio masts. The topic in question spans a number of areas and responsibility for specific areas lies between the chairman of the Office of Public Works and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform from an accounting officer perspective. The issues of direct concern to me relate to the use of mobile phones by the Garda Síochána under the agreement, and to the call charges arising.

With regard to usage, the Garda Síochána has just over 1,000 mobile phone connections under the agreement, as has been pointed out. As Mr. Benton pointed out, the contract originally provided for up to 550 phone connections with a range of costs set out in the agreement depending on the nature of the calls or service provided.

It also provided the scope, which was invoked, for the first 450 phones to be used free of call charges, rent or other charges for calls originating and terminating within the Esat Digifone — now O2 — network. It also provides for the connection of additional hand sets for use by the Garda, for the set-up of closed user groups for exclusive Garda use and for SMS messages originated and terminated within the Esat Digifone network.

Following a tender competition in June, 1999, the Garda Síochána had a separate corporate plan in place with Esat Digifone for 206 phones. In 2001, the Garda switched from this contract to the more favourable terms offered under the original contract when this was offered by Esat Digifone at that time. It also acquired a further 244 units for future use.

I am advised by the Garda that the cost of phone calls for these additional connections is at the same rate as that for the original phones. The distribution policy for mobile phones is set out in a Garda headquarters directive. Phones are provided for all personnel of superintendent grade and upwards. In addition, phones are issued to other personnel following approval by divisional chief superintendents or chief superintendents of specialist units, as appropriate. An important consideration is that, due to the previously mentioned security limitations of the existing analogue radio system, GSM phones are being used as a temporary measure until the national digital radio system comes on stream.

For monitoring usage, procedures have been modified over the years. Under the procedures currently in place, O2 submits a monthly bill, sorted by telephone number on a CD-ROM, in order that the Garda management accountant can review usage. A quarterly report listing all the phones allocated is sent to each assistant commissioner, who is asked to review the list to ensure that the usage recorded is reasonable. Detailed call information can be supplied on request to the assistant commissioners who, in turn, can raise with chief superintendents any matter they consider warrants further investigation. Other controls in place include the blocking of all premium number telephone calls.

I am advised by the Garda Commissioner that he and his authorities are satisfied that the costs imposed by O2 represent good value for money for the taxpayer. I am informed that when the number of phones was increased from 550 to 1,000 in 2001, 206 of the original phones were migrated from the original Esat deal to provide greater economy. However, direct cost comparisons between operators can be difficult because, for example, the direct connection between the Garda 086 network and Garda telephone switches means that no additional call charges arise for calls made between Garda 086 mobiles and Garda land lines in Dublin. The advice I have been given is that the current arrangements represent good value for money to the Garda organisation.

I am also advised that the Garda has considered alternatives to increasing the number of connections under the agreement. For example, a contract for the provision of additional mobile phone connections to provide communication between gardaí and the Pulse call centre in Castlebar — the contract specified that calls must be limited to the local Garda station and the Castlebar centre — was recently put out to competitive tender and awarded to Vodafone. The Castlebar facility, which uses redeployed staff who were surplus to the needs of the Department of Agriculture and Food, means that a Garda is no longer required to return to the local station to type up an incident report because he can now phone it in to Castlebar, where it is typed up and returned to the Garda's screen at the local station so that he can tidy up the report the following morning before entering it into the system. The Castlebar centre represents a phenomenal saving in valuable staff time because it allows a Garda to continue to operate at the front line by making the call from the scene rather than going back to the station to type up his report from scratch.

The tariffs under the agreement will be kept under review in the context of the forthcoming national digital radio system, to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. Work is well advanced on the new system, which will cover all our blue light and emergency services, and a significant reduction in the number of connections can be expected once the new system is up and running. In any event, the agreement with O2 ends in June 2007.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Aylward for his statement. May we publish it?

Mr. Aylward

Yes.

Chairman

Will Assistant Commissioner Crummey make an opening statement?

Assistant Commissioner Pat Crummey

The committee has a copy of my short submission which, with the Chairman's permission, I will synopsise.

From a Garda perspective, we were pleased to have access to mobile phones because of the great demand within the organisation at that time for greater contactability. It was also felt that mobile phones would compensate to some extent for some of the limitations of the analogue radio network, pending the introduction of the digital radio system. However, in the first directive that he issued shortly after entering the agreement, the Commissioner emphasised strongly that mobile and cellular phones were not to be considered as a replacement for, or as an alternative to, the Garda radio network.

We were also pleased with the mast replacement element of the agreement, under which a total of 128 radio towers to date have been replaced at no cost. The masts were built to a high specification to cater for current and future Garda requirements.

As the Secretary General mentioned, the customer private network, or CPN, was another important element for us, as it facilitates calls between Garda O2 mobile phones and Garda station land lines in the Dublin area.

Chairman

May we publish Assistant Commissioner Crummey's statement?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

Yes.

Deputy J. Higgins

As I want to ask about the mobile phone contract and some other more general points on the Vote, I may need to be quite cryptic because of the time constraints.

First, will Mr. Aylward clarify when was the contract increased to cater for 1,000 mobile phones?

Mr. Aylward

I believe that happened in 2001.

Deputy J. Higgins

Is the cost of that included in the figures in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Are the extra phones included in the €1.1 million charges that the Garda paid to O2 in 2004?

Mr. Aylward

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy J. Higgins

Who initiated the proposal that Garda stations be used as sites for mobile phone antennae?

Mr. Aylward

I do not have that information immediately to hand because, having been the Accounting Officer only since August 2004, I was not directly involved in those negotiations. I am advised by a colleague that the proposal was first raised back in the mid-1990s, but I am not aware who instigated it.

Deputy J. Higgins

I appreciate that Mr. Aylward has taken up his position relatively recently, but there must surely be a departmental memory of how things progressed. If he cannot clarify that just now, perhaps he can do so another time. I am just interested in the origins of the proposal.

Mr. Aylward

I will have the matter checked out. If I can find out that information during the course of today's meeting, I will advise the Chairman. Otherwise, we will write to the committee's secretariat.

Chairman

Does Assistant Commissioner Crummey know whether the proposal was initiated by the Garda?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

I know who the signatory was, but I have no idea who initiated the idea.

Chairman

Will Assistant Commissioner Crummey check the Garda records and communicate with the committee?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

Yes, I will do what I can.

Deputy J. Higgins

I want to ask Mr. Benton about the fixing of the licence fee, which should really be called a rental fee given that it involves a rent payable by Esat — and, subsequently, its successor O2 — to the State. How could it have taken five years, from 1997 onwards, to sort out what the proper rental should be? I have the history of the case in the various reports, so I do not need it to be recounted. The process seems to have been extraordinarily long and drawn out, but the delay seems largely to have originated with the company. In dragging its feet in what was a very favourable agreement, the company seems to have treated the State with contempt by, for example, taking the matter through the discovery process. Why was that allowed to happen?

Mr. Benton

I should first point out that we were paid the provisional fee pending the final determination by the arbitrator. Therefore, all the income was not held back. It took an inordinate amount of time and I agree with the Deputy on that. There were issues with regard to gathering comparable evidence and the confidentiality concerns of O2 with regard to disclosing commercial information which it felt was particularly sensitive. This involved a good deal of time and led to a formal discovery process, which involved instructing counsel in the matter. The background to the time lag is detailed in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Deputy Higgins might wish me to go over that again.

Deputy J. Higgins

No, I just want the point noted, and also that the company benefited financially in the sense that in 2003 it had to come up with perhaps €4.5 million accumulated from the previous years, on which it had to pay no interest. The company benefited from possibly having that money sitting somewhere in a fund, earning interest, but was not penalised by the State.

Mr. Benton

There was no provision in the agreement for the payment of interest.

Deputy J. Higgins

Why was there an automatic renewal after five years for this company? Surely it should have been the subject of a complete re-examination after five years with the possibility of other companies being asked to bid for the rental for the same sites?

Mr. Benton

The agreement provided for an extension and I suspect it partly reflects the fact that the company would have had to make quite a significant investment in the infrastructure. It negotiated at the time for a five-year extension, which was granted as part of the agreement.

Deputy J. Higgins

Was anything written into the agreement with regard to the number of customers and connections which would be facilitated by each site? Was there any relationship between the rental and the amount of profit the company was able to make from the connections?

Mr. Benton

No. The rental was determined by arbitration and presumably reflected the market value of the service we were providing.

Deputy J. Higgins

With regard to fixing the rental, it seems extraordinary that the main source of evidence apparently came from the company itself.

Mr. Benton

It was not the only source, but there was hard evidence of what the market was paying, what the commercial rates were. We also carried out quite extensive exercises ourselves to support the case we were making.

Deputy J. Higgins

Can the assistant commissioner confirm that there are 1,000 phones in use every day by the Garda as a result of this deal?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

This is approximately correct.

Deputy J. Higgins

This seems a kind of sticking plaster solution to a problem of communications. Does it cover the Garda shortfall in radio communications or must other gardaí use their personal mobile phones for duty reasons?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

The use of mobile phones helps deal with some of the limitations of the existing analogue radio network. Mobile phones were never intended as an alternative. Nevertheless, they provide greater contactability for the people who need to be in contact at all times.

Every garda probably has his or her own mobile phone. Gardaí take messages on them and in effect facilitate the organisation by being available and taking messages.

Deputy J. Higgins

Do they also have to make phone calls from their mobiles for duty reasons?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

They can if they so wish. We do not make that compulsory. If they choose to make a call which could be related to business, that is their choice.

Deputy J. Higgins

Presumably gardaí make calls when they must, and if they do not have this company's phones, or an adequate radio communication, they have no option, unless they use smoke signals, but to use their personal mobile phones.

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

Perhaps, but we have a policy that only members from superintendent rank upwards are issued with personal mobile phones. Because the demand is so great, we give every Garda division an allocation of mobile phones. It is at the discretion of the chief superintendent of the division how he distributes those phones.

Deputy J. Higgins

Is that in addition to the 1,000 phones?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

No, these are among the 1,000 phones.

Deputy J. Higgins

I am not talking of phones allocated to gardaí. Is it a fact that members of the Garda on the beat must use their personal mobile phones to make up for a shortfall in other means of communication?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

In terms of making up the shortfall, I do not know, but I have no doubt that they choose to make phone calls on their private mobile phones.

Deputy J. Higgins

I am not going to get any further on this. Is it fair to say that the only reason they would choose to use their private phones, and cost themselves money, is because they have no other way of communication?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

Not necessarily. They may use their own phones from a convenience point of view. They could use the Garda radio to make contact with their base stations, if that is what they want to do.

Deputy J. Higgins

I will move on. The Office of Public Works has now embarked on a much wider project than that involving the Garda sites, namely public buildings in its control generally being made available for rental to mobile telephone companies. Can Mr. Benton say if this is correct?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Deputy J. Higgins

Is the OPW at all concerned at the major questions of health and safety which surround this infrastructure, and real fears among people generally with regard to the non-ionising radiation emitted from these networks? What has the OPW done in this regard? Does the OPW realise there is a viewpoint, with which I agree, that we do not know the long-term health effects of electromagnetic radiation and that it could be quite damaging to health over an extended period?

This was a major consideration with the Garda unions, which I do not think was resolved. Is it possible that the OPW is exposing people in the vicinity of these networks, including State employees, to potentially grave risks — the most important issue — and also exposing the State to substantial liabilities down the line if this should prove so, if this appalling vista of mobile phone base stations being damaging to health comes to pass? Lest that sounds alarmist, if someone had raised a similar point about deafness being occasioned by the use of firearms, which became a major issue in the Defence Forces 20 years ago, one would have been laughed at. How does the OPW deal with such issues?

Mr. Benton

I take the Deputy's point about the health and safety issues and the real fears of staff and people in the wider community. We are extremely concerned about these issues as well. That is why we have ensured that our contracts require all operators to meet all national and international health and safety standards.

Deputy J. Higgins

Are there indemnity agreements with these companies? In the event that it is proved at a later stage that their equipment has caused serious health damage, is there a contract in place that will oblige them to indemnify any claims made against the OPW?

Mr. Benton

That is correct. The companies indemnify the Office of Public Works against any future claims.

Deputy J. Higgins

Is that in black and white on a contract?

Mr. Benton

That is part of the agreement.

Deputy J. Higgins

For the sake of argument, let us say there was a discovery in ten years' time that people were suffering, costing hundreds of millions of euro in recompense, medical or otherwise. Will the State be completely indemnified?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Deputy J. Higgins

Many members of the force and their families — who often lived very close to the stations — were very unhappy with having this extra radiation emitting equipment placed on Garda stations.

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

Radiation from Garda stations is an issue that concerns the associations and the members. We are very conscious of the health and safety issues that may surround these and we are in constant touch with our medical director, seeking as much advice as is available at any given time. We will comply with whatever advice or direction we are given in that respect.

Deputy J. Higgins

I have listened to concerns among civil servants and ordinary workers about this issue. Those concerns should be taken on board. Masts should not be placed on buildings with dozens or even hundreds of workers inside. The precautionary principle should apply.

Out of the total allocation for 2004 to the Office of Public Works, €108 million went on rent and rates. With such a long history behind the OPW, including some fine achievements, I find it extraordinary that it is still in hock to private landlords to supply the necessary buildings for the State.

Mr. Benton

I do not necessarily accept the premise of the Deputy's question. The State portfolio covers a great range of properties. State-owned properties account for about 60% and leased or rented properties account for about 40% of the total. There is a case to be made for having that balance. I argue that it is the most effective way of providing the accommodation requirements of Departments and State agencies. There is certainly much more flexibility for rented and leased accommodation. The balance is now just about right.

Deputy J. Higgins

How can it be advantageous to the State to pay such massive amounts of money to private landlords?

Mr. Benton

If the State did not pay rent, it would build. If one is to be anchored in a place for an indefinite period, the case for owning the property can be made. If one's future is anything less than that, such as ten, 15 or 20 years, there is a case for renting property.

Deputy J. Higgins

I assume the €39.5 million spent on heritage services would have previously been under the auspices of Dúchas. It was quite controversial to subsume Dúchas under the OPW. Has there been any examination of how its functions are carried out under the new remit?

Mr. Benton

There were a number of services under the umbrella of Dúchas. The management of historic properties and national monuments was transferred to the OPW. The management of the parks and wildlife service, which was also the responsibility of Dúchas, remains with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy J. Higgins

I raised the issue of decentralisation before with either the Department or the OPW. There is a danger of land prices in the regions being massively inflated by speculators anticipating that they now have a ready buyer. Has that been kept under review? What are the findings?

Mr. Benton

We are satisfied with the prices we have paid for sites acquired for decentralisation purposes. We are paying market value prices in the areas in which we have acquired sites.

Deputy J. Higgins

The market value is a moveable feast. When the State is interested, lo and behold, the market might decide that the value is two or three times what it would have been the week before.

Mr. Benton

That is a fair point. When the State is interested, there is always a premium. When the State is very interested and has a very urgent need, there is probably a higher premium. In the case of the acquisition of sites for decentralisation, we have had a number of competing sites for purchase. We have walked where we felt we were being asked to pay in excess of the market value.

Deputy J. Higgins

Nevertheless, if the Kenny report had been implemented 30 years ago, we would have a much more favourable situation.

When Mr. Benton is looking for property for the State, to what extent does he rely on his own resources and expertise? To what extent does he give powers to private estate agents? I am referring to a process that began in 2004, which was the process of looking for a prison site. I cannot go into the general issues because Department officials are not here today to speak about the Thornton site. However, I would like to ask Mr. Benton how the OPW handled it. It seems to me that the OPW gave an inordinate amount of power to a private estate agent, to such an extent that a site came forward that was not part of the general examination of many sites in the course of 2004. At one meeting in 2005, this was raised for the first time and was approved at a huge price of €31 million. That seems to be an extraordinary short-circuiting of what would have been a prudent and comprehensive analysis by the OPW and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, given the huge investment involved.

Mr. Benton

We often use outside consultants to assist us in delivering programmes. The most cost-effective way of discharging our business is to have a core staff in place with the necessary expertise. I do not expect to be able to have permanent people ready to respond to peak demands by the Government or whatever. We use consultants extensively. We have their work and advice quality assured by our in-house expertise. We have been doing that successfully for many years.

Deputy J. Higgins

Does Mr. Benton accept the point I made about the Thornton case, where the commissioner was involved? I cannot understand how the process was short circuited. Would that be the normal way in which the OPW would proceed?

Mr. Benton

I am not aware that the process was short-circuited.

Deputy J. Higgins

There was one year of studies, reports and meetings at which a number of sites were examined. In January 2005 a site was presented at a meeting and approved at that meeting. What else can one call it except short-circuiting?

Mr. Benton

My understanding is that the site was fully assessed. However, as the Deputy noted, it is not the responsibility of the Office of Public Works because that acquisition applies to another Vote. My understanding is that the staff who represented the OPW with regard to the assessment are fully satisfied that detailed and thoughtful consideration was given to all aspects of the proposition.

Deputy J. Higgins

I must beg to disagree. I will leave the matter there.

Deputy Ardagh

The question on Garda radio masts seems to have been fairly well answered. The one item about which I am concerned is whether the system of control in place is adequate and correct for what is happening. I wonder whether the assistant commissioner waits in anticipation quarterly for the listing of all the telephones that are allocated and then reviews the bills assiduously to satisfy himself that the usage is reasonable. That does not seem the type of priority item that should be on the desk of an assistant commissioner. Will Assistant Commissioner Crummey respond to that point?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

On a quarterly basis, the bills for my area of responsibility are sent to me by the director of finance. I then meet my chiefs in a management conference, where the bills are discussed. I will not suggest that I go through every single one of the thousands of telephone calls recorded and listed on the bills. However, I examine them to look for abnormally high bills. I have in the past approached quite senior officers in my area of responsibility with regard to the size of their mobile phone bills. I was satisfied, because of the nature of their work, which included travel abroad to EU functions and similar duties, that there was good reason for the expenditure incurred. I do not suggest I examine thousands of mobile phone calls.

It is important that those who use the mobile phones know that a record of the bills comes before the assistant commissioner who is in the charge of the branch, and that they are discussed at conference with the chief superintendents in charge of the sections. That sends out a clear and a positive message.

Deputy Ardagh

How many assistant commissioners receive this information?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

All of them — the assistant commissioners in headquarters and the regional assistant commissioners throughout the country.

Deputy Ardagh

Would they give the same detailed care and attention to the bills that Assistant Commissioner Crummey gives them?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

I presume they would.

Chairman

How many assistant commissioners are there?

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

There are six regional commissioners and three in headquarters.

Chairman

So the bills go to nine people.

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

The bills for their respective areas would go to them.

Deputy Ardagh

Would it not be more efficient for Mr. Culhane to do some of this work in the Department and for him to highlight the differences he feels should be addressed by the assistant commissioner, rather than having the time spent by the commissioners doing that work? Will Mr. Culhane explain what he does and why telephone bills are considered at such a high level?

Mr. Michael Culhane

The Department receives the bills from O2 monthly. We analyse the bills by region or branch and then by chief superintendent section. A management accountant is appointed to examine the usage for each of the telephones and to identify any telephone for which the usage, for any reason, has substantially increased relative to a trend over a number of previous months. We would alert the respective assistant commissioner to a particular telephone if the usage had jumped substantially. In terms of the management of the spend, while we, as part of the financial function, review this expenditure, it is up to each assistant commissioner to satisfy himself or herself that the expenditure is in accordance with the duties performed.

Deputy Ardagh

Would the Department highlight variances and unusual items for the assistant commissioner so that he can easily identify items the Department feels should be brought to his attention, or would he have to examine all of the bills to find these items?

Mr. Culhane

No, we would certainly identify any telephone which is out of sync in terms of usage. We also present a summary report on the use of the numbers and the total spend per month for three months, so the assistant commissioners can see the trend.

Deputy Ardagh

Mr. Benton and Mr. Byers, significant funds have been spent on the purchase of properties and received for the sale of properties. For the past year in particular, will they indicate some of the bigger deals in regard to the sale and purchase of properties?

Mr. Benton

I have the details and am happy to provide them. The use of Garda masts to generate income is part of an overall approach we have to transforming State assets and trying to make them work on behalf of the taxpayer.

The Deputy asked for details for 2005. One of the major deals in 2005 was with regard to property at St. John's Road, on which we generated approximately €45 million for the State. That site was owned jointly with Eircom and was valued at approximately €22 million. With Eircom, we invested in a planning scheme and ultimately disposed of it for approximately €94 million, of which our share was approximately €44 million. We also had a spectacular result with regard to the former veterinary college, where we sold a couple of acres for €171.5 million. Other disposals also took place.

Deputy Ardagh

Was the OPW involved with the digital hub?

Mr. Benton

We were very much involved with the digital hub and with a good outcome. The OPW originally bought the properties on behalf of the digital hub. We were involved recently in an attempt to dispose of the properties and return some workable space to the digital hub. We spent approximately €40 million on properties we had recently managed the disposal of, generating an income of approximately €111 million in a couple of years.

Deputy Ardagh

That is good going. With regard to the amount of money the OPW has expended on property, what sum was spent on the State Laboratory and the Department of Agriculture and Food laboratory in Backweston? What will the OPW get for the money it has spent?

Mr. Benton

There are two laboratory developments, the State Laboratory and the agriculture laboratory. In total, we will spend approximately €200 million. Both projects are complete and I am happy to say this was achieved within time and budget. We will have state-of-the-art laboratories for the State Laboratory staff and the agricultural community.

Deputy Ardagh

A decentralisation programme was set out. Could Mr. Benton provide detail on how it is progressing? Is the OPW behind or ahead of schedule? When does it expect 10,000 civil servants to be fully set up in first class premises throughout the country?

Mr. Benton

I will take responsibility for the premises. We have made good progress in site acquisition. At present, we have secured agreement for approximately 22 sites. We also have a number of contracts which are already in place. The contractor is on-site in Sligo at present.

Deputy Ardagh

Mr. Benton mentioned 22 sites. In total, how many sites are included in the programme?

Mr. Benton

There are approximately 50 sites in total. Twenty-two agreements have been secured and approximately 17 others are at an advanced stage. The Deputy may recall that the categories of early movers and subsequent movers were adopted. While we focused on the early movers, we have availed of any opportunities which arose to complete good deals in other decentralised areas. Hence, I am quite pleased with progress as far as acquisitions are concerned.

As for the actual construction, quite a lot is happening at present and more will happen in the coming months. A number of contracts have already been signed and we are out to tender in respect of a number of other locations. If the committee wishes, I can provide it with the details.

Deputy Ardagh

I refer to the number of civil servants who will be accommodated by these projects. In Mr. Benton's opinion, how many civil servants will be accommodated in the 20 sites for which agreement has been secured, in the 17 sites for which agreement is being secured and in the rest which are still outstanding?

Mr. Benton

The overall figure came to a little over 10,000 people. Not all are civil servants as the figure also includes public servants. The Office of Public Works is dealing with a number of agencies which have public service, rather than Civil Service staff. Some agencies are handling this by themselves. However, our target is to have 1,000 in place by the end of 2006 and to progressively build on that number to reach the overall figures.

Deputy Ardagh

How many people does Mr. Benton expect to be in place by the end of 2006?

Mr. Benton

I expect 1,000 people to be in place by 2006.

Deputy Ardagh

How many people will be in place by June 2007?

Mr. Benton

I must check the figures and come back to the Deputy. As we have published our targets, I can check them. I believe that I have them to hand.

Deputy Ardagh

Very well. I refer to the issue of communications. The security of communications is an extremely important matter. Will Mr. Aylward provide an update as to the position in respect of the national digital radio system?

Mr. Aylward

This is a priority item, which is being managed centrally for the different agencies by the Department of Finance. My information from that Department — its representatives who are present here may or may not be able to expand on this — is that the final tenders will issue in July or early August. In the meantime, a tender competition is under way for companies to establish their capacity to deliver this system. Hence, work should commence in the autumn on the roll-out of the national system. At present, my understanding is that it will have the capacity to cover all the emergency services, as well as the Prison Service.

Chairman

Can either Mr. Denny or Mr. Griffin from the Department of Finance comment?

Mr. Denny

We do not have that information and have not been briefed on this matter. However, I can check with my colleagues and communicate the current status to the clerk to the committee. I apologise for not having the information to hand.

Deputy Ardagh

Mr. Aylward mentioned the emergency services. Will that include gardaí on the beat?

Mr. Aylward

I wish to add that the first stage of the tendering process is for people to establish that they can actually deliver the required service. The tenders for this phase are due on the tenth of this month.

Deputy Ardagh

Are the tenders due on 10 February?

Mr. Aylward

Yes.

Deputy Ardagh

That is tomorrow.

Mr. Aylward

Yes. I refer to the tenders for phase 1.

Deputy Ardagh

To what stage will phase 1 bring the Department? Does it pertain to infrastructure?

Mr. Aylward

As my colleague, Mr. Michael Kirrane is more familiar with this subject, I will ask him to speak on it in greater detail.

Mr. Michael Kirrane

If I may explain briefly, it is a restricted tender process under EU procurement rules. Hence the first step in the tender process is to select a short list of suppliers who will subsequently receive the full tender documentation and make their proposals.

Deputy Ardagh

Today is 9 February. Has the Department received many tenders yet or do they tend to all arrive at the last minute, that is, on 10 February?

Mr. Kirrane

The tenders will be sent to the Department of Finance, because the process is being handled centrally by that Department. I can state that the tender documentation envisaged that five companies would be selected.

Deputy Ardagh

I understand that as far as communications tenders are concerned, it is normal for people to leave it until the very last minute before putting in their tender.

With regard to the staff of the Department of Agriculture and Food located in Castlebar, what qualifications, experience or expertise do they possess which enable them to carry out the duties they now perform?

Mr. Aylward

It is data entry work. The staff performed work of that character when they issued cheques and so forth on behalf of the Department of Agriculture and Food. We started out by migrating a small number of staff to perform this work covering a small area, that is, calls from the Limerick area. However, it has been very successful. The Garda Commissioner is extremely pleased with it and he will extend it to cover Munster in the first instance, followed by the rest of the country. This has proved to be an astonishing success and is a great tribute to the flexibility of the staff involved. Some of them have also agreed to go on a shift working system. Clearly, the work of law enforcement is not, to put it mildly, a nine-to-five business. This also appears to be going very well.

Deputy Ardagh

Does shift working differ from the terms of employment they had previously?

Mr. Aylward

Yes. However, a central agreement is already in place for civil servants, whereby they attract a premium payment. Again, the development whereby staff have shown the flexibility to take on shift working is welcome.

Deputy Ardagh

Excellent. Finally, I return to the issue of the numbers of civil servants to be moved. Does Mr. Benton have an answer to that question?

Mr. Benton

No. However, I will have the figures shortly.

Deputy Ardagh

Very well. Thank you.

Deputy Curran

I wish to return briefly to the issue of the telephone masts. Am I correct to assume that planning permission is not required for the erection of masts at Garda stations?

Mr. Benton

As the Deputy is probably aware, there is a particular provision in the planning Acts, namely, Part 9, which covers security installations. Generally, Garda stations come under that provision and the masts come under Part 9.

Deputy Curran

When this deal came into force in 1997, the mobile telephone operator did not require planning permission to erect the masts at the Garda stations. Is that correct?

Mr. Benton

Part 9 is a planning permission. Plans are presented to the local authority and are made available to members of the public, who are given an opportunity to comment on them. The commissioners then take a decision, having regard to the views that may have been expressed by the local authorities, individuals, or groups. Hence, they have a planning permission.

Chairman

Does Mr. Benton refer to the Commissioners of Public Works or the Garda Commissioner?

Mr. Benton

I apologise. I refer to the Commissioners of Public Works.

Deputy Curran

Hence, this would not end up with An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Benton

No.

Deputy Curran

Decisions would be turned around fairly quickly.

Mr. Benton

The process takes six weeks.

Deputy Curran

I make this point because the deal to secure access to Garda stations was highly significant, in that it permitted an extremely rapid roll-out of this system nationally. At the time, apart from the operator in question, only one other operator was in the market. Did any discussions take place with that operator?

Mr, Benton

It was a non-exclusive agreement. While the Office of Public Works was not involved in discussions with the operators at that stage, the agreement was non-exclusive.

Deputy Curran

The agreement concluded with a provisional rent. As a sense of urgency existed to make progress in this respect, a provisional rent was set, along with the provision of an arbitrator to assess what the market value might be. Am I correct?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Deputy Curran

Subsequently, market value comparisons were made. The arbitrator had access to the operator's books and examined what it paid for rents, which is how it came to its determination. Is that correct?

Mr. Benton

That is correct, but it was a rather lengthier process.

Deputy Curran

I appreciate that. It took from 1997 to 2002.

Returning to that stage in 1997, it is my view that from the State's side, we had a premium product and were in a much stronger bargaining position to get a premium rate, not just general market value due to the quick roll out that this would allow. This is why the operator was so anxious to do the deal and it was done with a provisional rent.

Looking back, would it not have been better to have a determined rent in excess of what would be paid on other sites? The OPW afforded the operator an opportunity that it would not easily get with other sites. A significant number of masts have been refused by An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Benton

All of those issues were discussed and argued during the course of the arbitration.

Deputy Curran

That is not the point I am making. They were argued during the course of the arbitration but the OPW was in a position of strength prior to 1997 and before the contract was signed. At that stage, should the OPW not have determined the rent rather than decide on just a provisional rent?

Mr. Benton

We had very good information in so far as there was much activity in this area at the time. We were anxious to ensure that we got the best deal possible. It seemed to us that fixing the provisional figure and agreeing to arbitration facilitated the roll out, which was part and parcel of Government policy——

Deputy Curran

I am not disputing that.

Mr. Benton

——while at the same time generating significant income for the State.

Deputy Curran

My specific point is that what the OPW ultimately got was based on an average of the figures on the commercial sites around the country. Starting out, the OPW had 450 sites that would have allowed for a much quicker roll-out than 450 random sites. Should the OPW not have got a premium price above the market average?

Mr. Benton

The Deputy will be aware that a number of players could have been approached, such as ESB, CIE and various——

Deputy Curran

They would not have had the specific exemption from the planning process that An Garda Síochána had, which made this a premium product.

Mr. Benton

The existing masts would have been exempt anyway.

Deputy Curran

None of those would have had An Garda Síochána's premium sites. For example, where I live in Clondalkin the Garda station is based in the village. If one were right beside it and trying to seek planning permission for a mast, it would not be allowed under our county development plan. There was a certain economic advantage but I cannot see it reflected in this deal.

Mr. Benton

Many of the new masts were supplied free of charge to replace old and dilapidated ones. Straightforward renting was not the only consideration.

Deputy Curran

In Mr. Benton's presentation, he stated: "Under the terms of the agreement a certain number of phones and connections were provided to An Garda Síochána, some free of charge and some to be charged at cost". Was this for the unit or the calls?

Mr. Benton

The calls.

Deputy Curran

How was this determined? Call rates are a source of mystery to many people. How did the OPW determine the cost in this situation?

Mr. Benton

First of all, auditor's certificates needed to be supplied. The agreement also allowed for the OPW to have its accountants and auditors examine O2's books in order for the OPW to be satisfied that what we were being charged was in accordance with the agreement. Their conclusion was that this was the case.

Deputy Curran

Has the charge fluctuated since the agreement came into force in 1997?

Mr. Benton

It may have fallen. I do not know but I will check for the Deputy.

Deputy Curran

At the outset I asked whether planning permission was required and Mr. Benton explained that it was not the same as another local site. People have concerns about the locations of these masts in built-up communities. They could be located on Garda station sites but not in other developments in similar locations. Given that we have masts that would not normally meet planning criteria or fall into line with many of our county development plans, have any specific health and safety audits been conducted?

Mr. Benton

My understanding is that there are in excess of 4,000 masts around the country and the Garda sites constitute a very small proportion of that figure.

We are conscious of the health and safety requirements. Earlier, I made the point that it is a requirement of all operators to comply not only with existing national and international health and safety requirements but any future requirements. For example, if the interdepartmental committee that is now sitting and examining the effects of these antennae makes a particular finding, the operators will be required to meet it.

Chairman

As per the clock on the monitor, a vote was called at 1.02 p.m., meaning Deputies will have until 1.10 p.m.

Deputy Deasy

I will approach this matter a little differently and accept the fair point made by Deputy Curran. As opposed to the deal entered into, I am interested in how the OPW will maximise these sites.

The State acted rightly. The utilisation of its assets was practical, reasonable and successful. Deputy Curran might argue that if we were speaking about 185 McDonalds, they would not have been able to enter into negotiations as strongly as the OPW did and we should have got a better figure. I am not sure. Notwithstanding Mr. Benton's statement that there are 4,000 sites nationwide, how will the OPW maximise its assets?

Mr. Benton

A new agreement is in place.

Deputy Deasy

Will Mr. Benton explain the agreement?

Mr. Benton

It covers all operators and sets the fee. Depending on whether one is in a rural or urban area, there are various levels. The fees have been fixed and negotiated after protracted sessions with the operators. We believe we are maximising income from the State's point of view.

Deputy Deasy

Regarding An Garda Síochána sites, will we see an additional number being used by mobile telephone operators? Can we expect the number to be over 400 after these deals have been finalised?

Mr. Benton

I expect so. It is hard to be definitive about it.

Deputy Deasy

Will we extend it to different Departments or move further than An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Benton

We use State property generally. Usually in such cases, this involves the attachment of antennae to buildings. We have issued quite a number of licences.

Deputy Deasy

This is what I am getting at. I agree that the policy is good. We are essentially saying that, as far as State properties and assets are concerned, there will be full utilisation in respect of mobile telephone operators. From my stand point, the telecommunications infrastructure in this country is still quite bad but it will improve as a result. Is this the idea?

Mr. Benton

It is subject to all of the planning and health and safety requirements we are obliged to meet but it is the intention.

Deputy Deasy

I have some experience with the health and safety debate concerning mobile telephone masts. I take with a pinch of salt the comments made by some people who find issue with this matter as they usually have mobile telephones stuck to their ears for half of the day. If what scientists tell us is true, that radiation bursts going to mobile telephones is 10,000 times greater than that coming from a mobile telephone mast, we are all in serious trouble.

I wish to ask Mr. Benton a question on decentralisation. Is it true that contracts for the OPW site in Dungarvan were recently signed?

Mr. Benton

That is correct, the OPW purchased a site in Dungarvan.

Deputy Deasy

I have tabled numerous Dáil questions on this matter. The number of staff willing to decentralise is disappointing. Will a satellite office open in Dungarvan soon?

Mr. Benton

The OPW has been requested to provide for an advance party and we are actively pursuing this. I cannot say when this will take place but we are actively pursuing it. With reference to Deputy Ardagh's question on figures, the target is 1,000 staff for 2006, an additional 1,750 in 2007 and 1,900 in 2008, giving a total of 4,650 by the end of 2008. These are the figures for which we are striving.

Deputy Deasy

With regard to Dungarvan, can Mr. Benton provide more clarity? He stated the contract has been signed and the satellite office is being "actively pursued". That phrase is vague rather than clear. Can Mr. Benton provide a clear explanation of plans for the site in Dungarvan?

Mr. Benton

We have a site for permanent accommodation and the agency has asked us to seek suitable accommodation for an advance party, before the construction of the permanent office.

Deputy Deasy

Can Mr. Benton provide a figure for this advance party?

Mr. Benton

I believe the advance party is approximately 25 people.

Deputy Deasy

Can Mr. Benton provide a timeline for the advance party? Dungarvan has been waiting some time for a concrete announcement.

Mr. Benton

I would like to be able to tell Deputy Deasy but he knows Dungarvan better than I do and it is difficult to find suitable accommodation to move to. Accommodation that may appear suitable requires a significant fit-out before people can occupy the office in compliance with planning and health and safety regulations. The OPW will procure a property if one is available and fit it out as soon as possible to make it suitable for an advance party.

Deputy Deasy

That is a fair response to a fair question but it raises the question of why Mr. Benton's political bosses were announcing this for Dungarvan and elsewhere when they had no idea what accommodation existed in Dungarvan. The cart has been put before the horse.

Chairman

To return to the issue of phone masts, the agreement was signed in 1997 with Esat Digifone. Did any other mobile phone company express an interest before, or subsequent to, the signing and what was the outcome?

Mr. Benton

I am not aware of any other company expressing an interest through the OPW around that time.

Chairman

Does Mr. Aylward have anything to add?

Mr. Aylward

I would have to check our files to be sure but I do not think any other telephone provider agreed any deal or gained access to any of these masts until the recent agreement to cover the whole State was concluded by the OPW. I would have to check files to discover if any tentative inquiries were made since. I could report to the committee secretariat.

Chairman

Was the agreement open on all occasions?

Mr. Aylward

It was a non-exclusive agreement and the chairman of the OPW can confirm that. It allowed for other people to be granted access.

Chairman

Non-exclusive could also mean that the Garda Síochána or other State agencies could continue to use it as they saw fit.

Mr. Aylward

I think it was intended that the company Esat Digifone would not have a lock on the use of the existing Garda masts or any replacement masts.

Chairman

Competitor companies could have made proposals.

Mr. Aylward

I understand the idea was the agreement would be non-exclusive and the State would continue to derive whatever benefit might accrue from additional telephony. I will have to check files to discover if a formal or informal approach was made. I would appreciate if the committee could indulge me for a few days to verify this.

Mr. Purcell

I would have to check our files but I have a recollection of seeing a reference, possibly concerning Eircell, to an expression of interest or an inquiry. I am not clear — I would have to check my files — but I think part of the reason it was not entertained was that, for operational reasons, the Garda Síochána was not keen on having different operators sniffing around its masts. I am not sure if this happened before or after the agreement with Esat but the Garda representatives may be able to clarify this because it would have been closer to that kind of issue.

Assistant Commissioner Crummey

The Garda Síochána would be anxious to protect the integrity of its equipment. I am in the same position as the Secretary General as I am not aware if other operators were consulted at the time of the agreement. I would have to conduct research in Garda Headquarters.

Chairman

Has the OPW put a value on the masts supplied by the telecom company where Garda masts were replaced by improved masts?

Mr. Benton

I do not have those figures but we know the number of masts and their locations so we could quickly put a value on them if that interests the committee.

Chairman

That is relevant to assessing the value of the agreement. Concerning decentralisation, is it the policy of the OPW to build premises in all locations or are leasing and rental arrangements also possible?

Mr. Benton

Yes, in most cases we have chosen a design-build solution and in four of the larger decentralisation centres a full public-private partnerships exists, design, build, finance, operate and maintain. In a number of centres we considered suitable premises that had planning permission, were under construction or were available to rent. We are keen to complete as many deals as quickly as possible. In most cases there was no suitable accommodation available to rent.

Chairman

Of the 22 agreements made and the 17 at an advanced stage, can Mr. Benton break these down into the projects for which contractors have been hired, the design and build projects and the design, build, finance and manage, public-private partnerships? Can Mr. Benton also draw our attention to cases where the OPW is leasing or renting rather than building and reference the locations in question?

Mr. Benton

I will start with the leased properties. We have leased a building in Limerick for the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Chairman

Which building is that?

Mr. Benton

I think it is near the former council offices.

Chairman

Is it the former council offices building?

Mr. David Byers

It is the building behind the complex on the main street.

Chairman

Is it part of the local authority property?

Mr. Byers

No, it is owned by a private developer with whom we are discussing leasing the property.

Chairman

Was it part of the local authority property?

Mr. Byers

I understand it was.

Mr. Benton

We are leasing for the Department of Finance in Tullamore and for the Department of Social and Family Affairs in Carrick-on-Shannon. Where Departments and agencies have decided for operational reasons to place advance parties, we seek short-term rental arrangements. We are exploring that market in a number of places. The three main projects are those I mentioned. The projects to be constructed on a PPP basis are those in Carlow, Portlaoise, Mullingar and Drogheda.

Chairman

Are they PPP for design, construct, manage and finance?

Mr. Benton

Yes, provided they meet the public sector benchmark.

Chairman

I understand. These are the four projects on which the OPW is going down the PPP road.

Mr. Benton

The scale of those projects means they might be large enough to attract real competitive interest in PPPs. Time will tell on that.

Our Department has gone for client-led design, which is a variation of the design-build contract. We held an internal competition among our architects to select the winning design. The Prison Service also has a client-led design because we were working on a design for it for another location at the time decentralisation was announced. The project in Sligo is a straightforward construction contract. In all other cases, a design-build contract will be used.

Chairman

Mr. Benton mentioned Limerick. He is aware that the overseas development agency staff is strongly resisting decentralisation to Limerick. This resistance is supported by approximately 35 NGOs. That is a significant cause for concern in my constituency. The roll-out may not be as fast as anticipated in projects involving leasing or full PPPs. Do the contracts include break clauses or delay in rental payments? Is the OPW tied to dates regardless of whether the premises are occupied?

Mr. Benton

It would be fair to say that before final commitment is made in all contracts, we will seek the approval of the Department of Finance which will ensure the numbers are in place to justify going ahead with the contracts.

Chairman

Contracts would not be finalised, even in cases involving leasing.

Mr. Benton

All of our contracts are subject to the final approval of the Department of Finance, which has a handle on the numbers. The Office of Public Works does not manage the movement of people. That is managed by the Department of Finance.

Chairman

Are break clauses included in the draft contracts?

Mr. Benton

In the lease contracts?

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Benton

Generally a five-year break is negotiated in contracts.

Chairman

If the roll-out is not as fast as anticipated, is the Office of Public Works tied into paying rent on empty buildings?

Mr. Benton

Yes. We must ensure the people are available before we sign contracts.

Chairman

In respect of advance parties occupying the posts before full decentralisation, into what type of arrangements is the Office of Public Works entering?

Mr. Benton

Ideally short-term leases with inexpensive fit-outs, which would justify the expenditure given the short time involved.

Chairman

Will Mr. Benton tell us more about the advance party concept? How many locations does the OPW have in mind? What numbers will be required to establish the posts?

Mr. Benton

Offhand, it is approximately ten or 12 sites, but I would need to check the details to confirm that number.

Chairman

Will Mr. Benton name some of them?

Mr. Benton

Accommodation is being sought for advance parties in Knock, Dungarvan, Limerick, Drogheda, Carlow, Thurles and Clonakilty. Accommodation is being sought and has already been provided in Portlaoise. The situation is changing and as we make progress on the programme, more and more people become anxious to establish roots in the location to which they will move.

Chairman

It is a bit like the old west, putting down advance parties before the forts are built.

Deputy J. Higgins

They might not have been there to follow.

Chairman

Does Mr. Benton have indicative dates for when the advance parties will be in these locations and are those dates similar to those in our minds?

Mr. Benton

I certainly hope to have facilities for Departments that require advance parties in place this year.

Deputy Burton

I wish to ask questions of the OPW on the situation with regard to its role on school sites. Mr. Benton is probably aware that school sites are reserved by local authorities in rapidly developing areas. A number of such school sites have involved parent negotiations for approximately five to seven years with no outcome. I refer to one in west Dublin, in theCastaheany area, where I understand the developer has been locked in negotiations with the OPW for three years.

I understand the OPW acts for the Department of Education and effectively this developer is seeking a ransom price for the sites of both a primary and a post-primary school. Does the OPW have a strategic approach given that if thousands of houses are built, there is a legitimate expectation that four or five years down the road there will be a demand for school places? Have negotiations been successfully concluded?

Mr. Benton

I would need to check the details regarding that site in west Dublin. The Deputy is correct in that people demand exorbitant prices for sites when they feel they have the OPW over a barrel. We tend to resist it, which has made us unpopular in some areas. However, we are simply not prepared to pay any price. The issue of strategy on which the Deputy touched is important. We act as agents for the Department, and the Department is examining a strategy whereby it can earmark sites for schools in advance of development.

Deputy Burton

Would it make sense for the OPW for a local authority to earmark a site to be acquired in the local development plan when development prices are usually modest? I know there is a risk that the Department will not go ahead with a school. In the area to which I referred, more than 8,000 houses and apartments are occupied, most of them by families. The building of those houses began 11 years ago. It is situated on the Dublin side of Clonee. The other secondary schools in the area are full. I have heard stories about the ransom demand of the developer. Will Mr. Benton confirm that? Is the price demanded as high as €8 million per acre or is it €8 million for a couple of acres?

Mr. Benton

I am not sure what price is being demanded. We are regularly asked for figures way in excess of what we are prepared to spend. Deputy Burton is correct to suggest trying to earmark sites for school developments as part of an overall development plan. It would make a great deal of sense and make our job much easier. We are generally not involved in acquiring sites for secondary schools. It is for primary schools that we act as agents——

Deputy Burton

This is a dual site, as Mr. Benton probably knows. Does he have any optimism about this matter? I sympathise with the difficulties experienced by the OPW, but I represent the parents in the area who have been given many promises but still have no site for either the primary or the secondary school. Does Mr. Benton have any idea when the negotiations might conclude?

Mr. Benton

I cannot tell the Deputy what stage the negotiations are at now but I will make inquiries. I understand the frustration of the local people because we too are frustrated. I will make further inquiries this afternoon and will communicate with the Deputy directly.

Deputy Burton

What is the current role of the OPW with regard to the National Aquatic Centre? Has the OPW been involved in identifying and addressing the severe problems which arose when the roof blew off and the subsequent ongoing problems with performance? The centre is a consortium or PPP project and I am interested to know if the OPW only got involved when the consulting firm and project managers left or was it involved from the beginning?

Mr. Benton

Our role is to act as professional advisers to the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, which has responsibility for the complex.

Deputy Burton

Was the OPW surprised when the roof blew off and at the level of problems that have arisen since then?

Mr. Benton

Yes, we were surprised. The Department sought our advice at the time and we recommended various interventions, including the appointment of specialists to definitively determine the cause of the problem. That exercise took a little time but ultimately, the specialists got to the root of the problem. The role of our office was to facilitate the exercise rather than carry it out ourselves.

Deputy Burton

Approximately €65 million of public money has been spent on the facility so far. Since it opened, treated water usage at the centre has been three times what was calculated in the original specification. This suggests that there is a massive and continuous leakage of water from the site, the cost of which is significant because the water is treated.

Mr. Benton

Essentially that is a matter to be resolved between the operators and the company, CSID. As I have said, we act as advisers to the Department and we also advise CSID on professional matters. Some of our engineering staff have been on the site but generally we commission people with the required expertise in the relevant area or recommend people whom CSID should commission if they are seeking third-party advice.

Deputy Burton

CSID, as I understand it, is a company which is under the control of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. Is Mr. Benton saying that the OPW only acts as an adviser to one Minister? I have visited the centre recently and am extremely concerned about its long-term future. It is a wonderful facility and for my constituents, as well as for the population of greater Dublin, a very important one. I am not an engineer but I was shocked at what I saw and at the information I obtained on the treated water usage at the facility.

Mr. Benton

The OPW has no direct responsibility for these issues. I am a director of CSID, which puts me in another position, but the OPW is not directly responsible. When requested by the Department, the office provides advice or recommends the commissioning of particular professional expertise.

Deputy Burton

In terms of the structure of the PPP or consortium, what name would Mr. Benton give to the deal for the development, building and ongoing management of the centre? Is it different in structure to the PPPs to which the Chairman referred earlier?

Mr. Benton

I think it comes under the broad umbrella of a PPP in the sense that there were design, build and operate elements. In reality, there are separate and independent units within that grouping. The constructor, while tied in to a certain degree, is independent of the operator and vice versa. That very issue was discussed in the courts recently.

Deputy Burton

I will move on to another issue. Is Mr. Benton happy with the level of usage of Farmleigh, with the number of occupied bed nights and its use for other purposes? Does it conform to the norms for similar Government properties?

Mr. Benton

I am extremely happy with Farmleigh. I was involved in the project from the beginning and the level of public acceptance of it is phenomenal. As the Deputy probably knows, over the summer months, at weekends and on special occasions it is hugely popular with the public. Last year alone over 180,000 people visited Farmleigh. The number of occupied bed nights is what one would expect for a facility like Farmleigh House. It is exclusive and is used to accommodate Heads of State and people like the Secretary General of the United Nations. The number of events held there, in terms of meetings and so forth, is staggering. There are hundreds of meetings at Farmleigh every year. It is an extremely popular venue that is well used by the public service and other agencies. I am delighted with Farmleigh and how the project turned out. It has realised all our expectations.

Deputy Burton

Is work commencing on the conversion of the Steward's House for use as a residence?

Mr. Benton

No, work is complete on theSteward's House for additional residential accommodation, as part of the overall Farmleigh complex.

Deputy Burton

Would the standard of accommodation be of sufficient quality for a head of Government?

Mr. Benton

The accommodation is comfortable, but modest.

Deputy Burton

We have had visits from Mr. Kofi Annan, the Chinese Premier, various Princes and Princesses and while I am not sure of the exact number of occupied bed nights at Farmleigh, I believe it is less than 100. In that context, why was the Steward's House refurbished? Local people have been given to understand that it is intended for a Taoiseach. The bed night occupancy is low at Farmleigh House and if it was a bed and breakfast establishment or a hotel, it would have to charge enormous fees to remain afloat. Will Mr. Benton tell us why the OPW felt that extra accommodation was needed in the Steward's House?

Deputy J. Higgins

Are there plans to grow rare orchids there?

Deputy Burton

A lovely job is being done on the gardens. Orchids could be grown when the old glass houses are re-instated. A Taoiseach who was interested in gardening could be very happy.

Mr. Benton

The purpose of the accommodation has been confirmed in press releases and in replies to parliamentary questions. There were 394 bed nights in 2005 but we have found in practice that small delegations tend to prefer more intimate facilities, as long as the same level of security is provided.

Chairman

Can the committee visit and stay overnight?

Deputy Burton

We would be happy to visit, although maybe not overnight.

Mr. Benton

We would be happy to organise that if the committee was interested.

Deputy Burton

In terms of the work done by the OPW in the Phoenix Park and Farmleigh, Mr. Benton is aware that I have a bone to pick about the absence of a playground. Given the numbers of children who visit, that is an area in which the facilities are lacking.

Mr. Benton

There is a children's playground but it is not located on the Deputy's preferred side of the park.

Deputy Burton

The solution is simple. I invite a Head of State to stay in Farmleigh who has children because I know then that we will get a children's playground.

Given that Phoenix Park is already used by tour buses, Dublin Bus and local residents have expressed the idea of allowing buses from Blanchardstown and Castleknock to pass through the park, perhaps on dedicated bus lanes, in order to alleviate traffic problems. Does the OPW have a view on this matter or has it already been decided?

Mr. Benton

It has not been decided but we are actively exploring a number of issues to see if it can be facilitated. However, we need to understand clearly the knock-on effects of the decision, particularly in terms of access points.

Deputy Burton

If buses were permitted, would other traffic through the park be curtailed?

Mr. Benton

Not necessarily. We are studying that question.

Deputy McGuinness

I was delayed due to Dáil business, so I apologise if my questions were already answered. Two properties, Colmstock Properties Limited and Public Property Development Limited, which were to be wound up in 2003 because of the costs of supporting them, are still in existence.

Mr. Benton

These are properties which we bought but the only way——

Deputy McGuinness

The Committee of Public Accounts was told that because of their expense, they would be disposed of immediately.

Mr. Benton

Public Property Development Limited was formally placed in liquidation on 4 February 2005, while Colmstock Properties Limited was put into liquidation on 14 June 2005.

Deputy McGuinness

Why did two years pass since the commitment given to this committee?

Mr. Benton

As the Deputy is aware, it is a rather lengthy process that requires a number of months to complete. Matters were put in train without delay after the commitment was made.

Deputy McGuinness

Have questions already been asked on the €22,000 paid for copyright infringements?

Mr. Benton

No questions have been asked at this committee, although I asked about the matter this morning when I saw the sum involved. It refers to compensation paid due to a guide produced on Castletown which reproduced somebody else's work.

Deputy McGuinness

There was a similar figure with regard to an environmental consultant, where a fine of €100 was imposed for dumping in Tipperary. I presume the consultant was paid €22,000 to explain how the site could be cleaned up. Can Mr. Benton clarify this matter?

Mr. Benton

I am not familiar with the details but this may have been an issue which we inherited from Dúchas and, as such, may have simply involved tidying up the accounts.

Deputy McGuinness

After receiving a fine from the court, the OPW spent in the region of €20,000 to clean up a site on which it had illegally dumped material.

Mr. Benton

Is the Deputy referring to the Kilkenny site?

Deputy McGuinness

No, it was in Tipperary. In addition to the money spent on cleaning up the site, an environmental consultant was paid €22,000. What did he or she tell the OPW?

Mr. Benton

As I told the Deputy, the OPW was not originally responsible for the matter. However, because we were charged with clearing it up, we had to establish the nature of the dump and satisfy the local authority that appropriate remedial action was being taken.

Deputy McGuinness

Did that require the expenditure of so much money?

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Deputy McGuinness

A figure of €47.84 million is given for flood relief schemes. Will Mr. Benton comment on the extent of the compensation to property owners in Kilkenny arising from that scheme? Has the package been completed, will further expenditure be required or is the OPW fully insured against any costs?

Mr. Benton

The budget referred to by the Deputy contains a provision from which we will pay compensation. Individual negotiations are continuing on the matter.

Deputy McGuinness

A portion of the €47.84 million has been allocated which will adequately cover the cost of the compensation packages.

Mr. Benton

We are satisfied that it will do so.

Deputy McGuinness

Has the OPW fully disposed of the properties purchased for asylum seekers, regardless of costs? Do any remain?

Mr. Benton

No, we sold Lynch's Lodge and Devereaux Hotel and transferred other properties to the Department of Health and Children or, in the case of Broc House, to the affordable housing initiative.

Deputy McGuinness

The OPW has, therefore, disposed of its portfolio of properties.

Mr. Benton

Yes.

Deputy McGuinness

Deputy Burton raised questions on schools. Applications have been made to the OPW with regard to planning permission for development of the old Garda station in Castlecomer, County Kilkenny, which adjoins a school. How long does it take the OPW to deal with developments which have potential for use as school sites?

Mr. Benton

I am not entirely clear on the Deputy's question. We only acquire sites on an agency basis for the Department of Education and Science, so, if the matter concerns the development of a school or a planning application——

Deputy McGuinness

The OPW owns this site, which while derelict, is quite extensive. The local school situated beside it has applied to the OPW to determine its potential uses.

Mr. Benton

I understand that the school is dealing directly with the Department of Education and Science and not with the OPW.

Deputy McGuinness

No, it is dealing with the OPW. I can supply further details to Mr. Benton if he so requires.

Mr. Benton

I think we require the direction of the Department before we can act on the matter.

Deputy McGuinness

The issue arises because the OPW has it and I am concerned with the delays that have been experienced.

Mr. Benton

The matter is not straightforward but I can investigate it and revert to the Deputy.

Deputy McGuinness

On the figure of €8.14 million for overtime, does that recur on a year-to-year basis?

Mr. Benton

We have approximately 2,350 staff members and have very tight controls on overtime. Although there is a level of overtime involved in some of our heritage or public properties, our overtime bill is generally small in the context of the number of people working.

Deputy McGuinness

On the OPW's new remit of looking after the heritage sites throughout the country, we are all aware of the flagship sites and the OPW is to be commended on its work there. Within its budget, what plans does the OPW have to extend the restoration or ensure the safe public access of the other sites that could be of great value to the economy of the local town or village? Is there a plan to move beyond the main towns to the lesser sites that are as important? It appears there is a programme of visiting the sites and doing the basics but not going beyond that. Is there not a case for going beyond that and growing tourism?

Mr. Benton

The Deputy is right. There are some wonderful sites and it is our intention, as resources permit, to roll out those. Although we must always be mindful of health and safety and access issues, the Deputy will see each year that we are keen to develop these sites, particularly since it has come back to the OPW. Through our performance in the historic properties and national monuments we have demonstrated our commitment to making them accessible. That philosophy underpins everything we do. As far as is reasonably possible and within the resources available that is our intention.

Deputy McGuinness

Does the OPW target the sites for investment in a pecking order and pursue that proactively in its demand for money in the estimate?

Mr. Benton

Very much so.

Deputy McGuinness

I would like to see greater evidence on the ground of more happening on those sites in the pecking order. There is huge potential in those sites for the local economies. This budget should encourage the OPW to pursue that proactively.

Mr. Benton

That is certainly our intention.

Deputy Boyle

My apologies, I have been engaged in Dáil business. I have two brief areas of questions. Does the agreement on Garda radio masts include clauses on the monitoring of electromagnetic levels? We are talking about work environments for the gardaí and the location of Garda stations in the middle of population centres close to schools and commercial areas. There are guidelines on where masts should be located, as far away from population centres as possible. There are also international standards. On foot of these agreements does the OPW, the Garda or the Department have any insurance to the effect that should it be proved in the future that proximity to these masts is injurious to anyone, liability would be taken by the telecommunications company?

Mr. Benton

The new agreement provides that the operators indemnify the State from any future claims and there is provision for monitoring where necessary.

Deputy Boyle

Is that monitoring done by O2 or by an independent company?

Mr. Benton

An independent company.

Deputy Boyle

Is it done with regularity?

Mr. Benton

Under the new agreements yes.

Deputy Boyle

Will it be on an annual basis, once or twice a year?

Mr. Benton

It is more frequent.

Mr. Aylward

The original agreement with Esat Digifone provided, as stated on page 21 of the contract:

Digifone shall at all times and at its own expense comply with all other legal requirements pertaining to the use of mobile telephony, antennae and ancillary equipment in the State and in particular, without prejudice to the generality of that, to any requirements imposed by or pursuant to the provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Acts 1926 and 1988, the Health, Safety and Welfare at Work Act 1989 and the Radiological Protection Act 1991.

It goes on to stipulate: "Digifone shall further conform with all relevant guidelines in that regard which may be set down from time to time by the International Radiation Protection Association".

Deputy Boyle

My second question is strictly for the OPW and alludes to one of the responses Mr. Benton gave to Deputy McGuinness. It relates to the sale of Lynch's Lodge in Macroom. In his answer Mr. Benton indicated that it was the only property sold from the basket of properties received originally from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform for the accommodation of asylum seekers and refugees. How was a property sold on at a value of €1 million less at a time of rising property prices? Why were alternatives not pursued? A voluntary organisation that deals with the elderly in the Ballincollig area close to Macroom offered to take over the property and was excluded from use of Lynch's Lodge either because the Health Service Executive said the building was not suitable or because it was not able to guarantee funding.

Mr. Benton

Before we disposed of the building it was put on offer to other State bodies, as is our norm. I cannot answer why the HSE did not find it suitable. That is a matter for it to explain. As neither it nor anybody else required it from us, we put it on the market.

Deputy Boyle

Mr. Benton made Brock House available for the affordable housing initiative. Is that through a State or voluntary agency?

Mr. Benton

It is a State agency and I am confident we will generate a significant number of dwelling units on the back of it.

Deputy Boyle

What about the central question of how the property sold for €1 million less several years later at a time of high property prices?

Mr. Benton

We were disappointed with the outcome and given our record of disposing of properties and the enormous profits we have generated for the State, we are more conscious of that than anybody. That property was bought as a going concern when there was a particular need and a great urgency. It is not rocket science. The Deputy can work out how the market works. Some years later following injunctions preventing us from using it when it was no longer a going concern we disposed of it through the market and got the market value. That is life.

Deputy Boyle

The OPW bought it with the goodwill of a hotel and sold it as an empty building. Is Mr. Benton confident the OPW did not overpay for it in the first instance or undersell it in the second instance?

Mr. Benton

The value of anything is what one is prepared to pay at the time given one's circumstances and needs. We were happy that we got good value in the context.

Deputy Boyle

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

The OPW was assessing a site for a Gaelcholáiste in Limerick. Has there been any direction from the Department of Education and Science about that?

Mr. Benton

I cannot answer offhand but will come back to the Chairman on that.

Mr. Purcell

With regard to the agreement on Garda masts, I was critical about the inordinate delay in coming to a conclusion on the definitive rents to be paid for the sites. In future agreements when there is potential for the other party to drag its feet or be less diligent in pursuit of concluding the agreement there should be a provision for interest. That maybe is something that can be taken on board in the future.

Mr. Benton

That is in the new agreement. I take Mr. Purcell's point.

Chairman

Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 10 and chapter 3.1? Agreed. The agenda for our meeting of Thursday, 16 February 2006 is the value for money report of the Comptroller and Auditor General — No. 49, property sale by Shannon Development; the 2004 annual report for the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 34 — the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment; the 2004 accounts for IDA Ireland and the 2004 accounts for Enterprise Ireland.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 16 February 2006.